Shaun Newman Podcast - #223 - Matt Sattler & Greg Hill

Episode Date: December 1, 2021

Both are pilots of a major Canadian airline and are a part of Free to Fly a group of aviation professionals & passengers who believe in the right to travel freely. Let me know what you think Text me 587-217-8500 Like the podcast? Support here: https://www.patreon.com/ShaunNewmanPodcast Want more info on Free to Fly https://www.freetofly.ca/

Welcome to the podcast, folks. Happy Wednesday, Hump Day. Hope everybody's having a great week. Before we get on to today's show, let's get on with today's episode sponsors. And December is here. Oh, I had to check the calendar a couple times. I can't believe, you know, another year almost in the books. But happy December to everybody out there. Now, Jim Spanerath and Team over at Three Trees Tap and Kitchen,

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Let's get on that T-Barr 1, Tale of the Tape. There are two pilots of a major Canadian airline who are both a part of Free to Fly, a group of aviation professionals and passengers who believe in the right to travel freely and are ardent defenders of people's rights to explore the world. I'm talking about Matt Sattler and Greg Hill. So buckle up. Here we go. This is Matt Sattler. I'm from Free to Fly, free to fly.

free to fly.ca and this is the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast today. I'm joined by Matt Sattler and Greg Hill. Thanks for hopping on, fellas. Thanks for having you. Now, before we get rolling too far in, I was hoping that you guys could give a little background on yourself. We'll start with Greg.

Just a little bit about who you are and why you're part of free to fly. Well, I'm not sure how far back to go. I'll try and avoid the childhood days maybe to keep it short. But as far as the career aspect goes, I started in the military. My father was also a military guy, so that probably adds a little bit of perspective. My father was very patriotic's probably too simple of a word, but he certainly instilled in myself and my brother and sister, a keen sense of history and understanding of where this country came from,

where our freedoms came from. And then that morphed into my own military career, which was a journey unto itself. And I left there in 2006 and then started with a major Canadian airline. So that's a little bit of my background as far as how we got to where we're at. Well, that started, I mean, it started like it did for everybody, I suppose, in early 2020, that moment that you hear about over and over of, hang on a second, you know, something, something just isn't jiving here. Certainly, if you

pulled out a calculator and looked at just at the government, the government data. So that's, that's how we got to early 2021 for myself. Maybe I'll pass it over to Matt and then we can jump into how we, how we got to, to where we're at with Free to Fly if that works well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, my name's Matt and I've wanted to be an airline pilot since I was probably old enough to talk. and I've got all the drawings on the walls and drawings on precious art that my mom had and things like that to prove it. So it was really the culmination of a lifelong dream. So I did become an airline pilot with the same airline Greg Zad, it's a major Canadian airline, got to live out my dream. And I was also raised by a mother and a father who love history and have a keen sense of, I would say duty,

We were raised to be dutiful, especially within our family, but to our friends and our neighbors as well. And we love history in our family. So put those two things together. And, you know, I started to see the writing on the wall as well back in 2020. And Greg and I got talking about maybe I'll use a term that Greg uses frequently. We got to violently agreeing with one another. And the rest was history. We decided on a collaboration.

and we've since turned this project of ours into something that predominantly is meant to help other people. So that's why we're here. Well, let's chat a little bit about free to fly. Actually, before we get there, you know, normally I do one-on-one because I like one-on-one. It's very easy to sink your teeth into some things. You both have said things that really have my brain firing, so to speak. And, you know, we're going to just spend a few moments on it because otherwise I'm going to think about it for the next half an hour and I'm not really going to pay attention to what you're saying. So, Greg, when you talk about your military background, I assume, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but in the military, you know, you have hierarchy, you follow what you're told.

It's very structured. how difficult has it been to, I don't know, not follow along, I guess, would be the, like, to stand out in the crowd. Like, how hard has that been, even when you're seeing it? Because I assume, and maybe I'm assuming wrong, and you can clarify it for me, but coming from with your background and your family's background, was it a difficult decision? Can you maybe just give us a little bit of insight into that? Well, it's difficult in the sense of similar to what Matt alluded to. You know, this has been a lifelong dream for myself as well, and it was a long journey. It's a difficult journey, certainly to get to the place that I'm at now.

Being an airline pilot is a great gig, but in the process, I lost a fair bit along the way in terms of, you know, military service has its challenges and there's aspects of it that I love for sure. but it was a difficult road to get here. So I know that's not specifically what you're asking, but I think it's a relevant point as well as you're giving up things in the process, but to your question as far as not conforming, I think is essentially what you're asking. And that is difficult.

I was actually having a conversation with my wife about that just the other night and that idea of when you're the lone person, seems in the crowd that's running against the grain, it is difficult. And, you know, you brought up the military aspect of not following orders. But even within that construct, you know, there's things called rules of engagement, even when you're in armed conflict. And there are, there are rules associated. You know, there's things like the Geneva Convention and otherwise, there's, there's, ethics and fundamentals that are associated with it. And we hear over and over again. And it's

something I think that's starting to trend in the mainstream somewhat and that's the concept of a line in the sand. And I think it's an important thing to bring up because it's an important question for everyone to ask themselves. And some of my concern with where we're at in society, and we heard it even from from a Manitoba judge end of October that, you know, the public health officials are not to be questioned. And I think that was for me probably late in 2020 a moment when I really I heard this start to come up that it's best not to ask questions that we're not to question. We're just to trust the experts. And I had grave concerns even before that, but that was probably when I crossed a line where I thought,

well, we as a society get to the point where we say, I'm not asking, we're counseling other people not to ask questions of technocrats who are experts in their field for sure, but they're not experts in every field and certainly not once it gets into the, the areas of every aspect of what makes us human, one of which is, well, I could go on and on, you know, whether it's your spiritual being, your social being, your ability to interact with other people. So it was a meandering answer to your question. I'm not sure if I answered it, but I think there's aspects even within a hierarchy where you as an individual have to say there's an ethical compelling here that I could no longer go along with.

I will lose as much as is necessary to look myself in the mirror and to show my kids how you live courageously, but also according to a personal code of standards that are not negotiable, really. There's certain fundamentals that are not negotiable. It's a heavy weight on your shoulders when you come to that conclusion. We were doing something that is not ethical. And I've witnessed people behind closed doors come to that conclusion. And then as soon as they hit it, they kind of dance around it. Because if they admit that, then they also have to realize there's a heavy burden being put on everyone right now.

And, you know, ignoring it, I don't know, ignoring it is, I don't know if that's the right way to think about it or not, but it feels like a lot of people are ignoring what's going on or not, maybe not paying attention to it a whole lot. But when they talk about it, when they see things, you can see they're getting to that conclusion, but they don't want to go over the hill to fully admit it. Because if they fully admit it, then they got to be put in a place where you two fine folks are at, where it's like, well, no more, right? And no more means sticking your head up. And once you stick your head up, I'm sure you two can attest,

it's a liberating feeling, but at the same time, a nerving feeling to be exposed. Well, it certainly is too. And if you think about throughout history, there have been different scenarios that have played out that reveal just how mad a crowd can become. you know, this collective insanity. And I think really the archetypal anecdote in history is the tulip mania.

I'm not sure if you're familiar, Sean, with the tulip mania in Holland. But at one point in history, I believe it was in the, it might have been in the 17th century or a little bit before that. But tulip bulbs were so prized that they became sort of a currency, a de facto currency. And due to speculation, their prices began to. go wildly out of control. And people began to invest in them according to their price behavior, their price action.

And it was only when a bulb that was worth a couple million dollars in today's money failed to sell that the proverbial emperor's clothes became free and clear for all to see. And I think back to situations like that, there must have been an awful lot of people who were crying foul all the way up through that mania saying, hey, you know, you do realize these are just tulip bulbs, right?

And but, you know, people hear what they want to hear. And when you factor in a little bit of fear into the situation as well, it becomes even more of a sort of mob mentality. And I'm not saying that necessarily everybody has that mob mentality, but there's certainly a sense that, well, perhaps I don't have the full picture. And so I'll just defer to these experts or I'll defer. to the, you know, the loudest voices among us. And in doing so, you really abdicate your own ability to see truth and to make decisions for your own self. So I think there's a little bit of that

going on here. And how much, hard to say, we'll have to tease it out and we'll probably only know with the benefit of history. Yeah, I was going to, that's where I was going to go with you, Matt, was, you know, you're having a background, a family that loves history. For sure, the tulip craze. Yes, that was in the 1600s. I didn't know that off the top of my head. I googled it real quick. I don't want to give the false impression like I just had that sitting in the back of my brain.

But I knew exactly what you're talking about. The other one that a listener pointed out to me, you know, I talk an awful lot about hiding behind the guise of public safety being a very, because how can you argue with it? We're just trying to keep people safe, you know? And a lovely listener brought up Robespierre and the French Revolution, you know. The terror. The terror.

And, or yeah, sorry, the French terror, right? And they just, for public safety, they ended up killing a whole bunch of domestic terrorists, right? And when you look in history, you find all these, like, is it the same thing? No, because, I mean, we're, you know, I had a professor once tell me, history doesn't repeat it rhymes. And, you know, where we're sitting at right now, is it the same thing as what's come before? Well, not exactly. I mean, obviously, we live in a different world compared to 100, let alone 300 years ago. But there are so many similarities that are happening right now that it's eerie. And, you know, to forget everything that happened in history is a little bit laughable at this point.

Well, and I think that's where, you know, I often say we've got to understand the secondary and tertiary effects of everything we do, right? And we seem to have become very one-dimensional. So even when you talk about safety, it's almost, you know, it's a one-dimensional thing that that's the only, that's the only goal. And yet there's multiple impacts that fall out of what we've made in terms of decisions with respect to safety. You know, and there's, we've got a year's worth of data as far as the harms that have been caused, whether it's giving up on an entire generation's worth of education for the past two years or otherwise, right? There's there's things down the road that we don't even know the full, the full impacts of where that's necessarily going. And I think

politicians as well are prone because they're kind of damned if they do damned if they don't, right? If they do nothing, it's a very difficult thing. So sometimes things are done just just for the sake of doing something. And so they make these illusory promises that we're going to keep you safe based on ABC and people aren't thinking, well, hang on, there's there's 15 things that are going to fall out of that. There's no simplistic solutions to anything, whether it's economics, politics, or otherwise. There's always tradeoffs, right? You give up one thing to get another thing in return. And we seem to have dumbed down society as a whole.

And, you know, I put myself in that same package. You know, we don't read as well as we used to, and that affects what we've been talking about in terms of understanding history. And no, it's not going to happen and play out exactly the same as it did in 1600, but there's certain maxims that will if you can't trade, you can't trade liberty. You know, there's all sorts of quotes that way in exchange for safety and not down the road end up in a very dark place. And I think that's really the early this year where Matt and I got to the point where we said enough. Like this is trending. Talking about the secondary tertiary and other effects, it's trending in a very, very bad place. something needs to be done and we can't go along with us anymore.

So is that where free to fly comes from? Right in that, that's how this all starts? Yeah, it was early, it was early this year, somewhere around April, essentially. We began talking and thought, you know, this is, we see a vaccine mandate probably coming. We're probably on the pointy end of that unfortunate spear, just given our, you know, we're all We're all over the world essentially. So if it's coming anywhere, it's probably coming to aviation first. So we reached out to our bargaining agent and said,

hey, we've got some concerns here. And their concerns were not quite the same as ours, shall we say. It was essentially, let's wait and see what happens, which is not a great strategy for getting yourself. You really want to have a plan in place rather than trying to come up with one after the fact. So we gathered a group of people and got together

with some lawyers and who very kindly, walked us through some of the realities of the Canadian legal system. And then the group just kind of exploded from there broadly to flight attendants. And then, you know, now it's almost 3,000 aviation professionals across the country. Everything from pilots, flight attendants, refuelers, maintenance, customer service, and otherwise. Not just certainly the major airlines are represented there, but also everything from the corporate world to helicopter loggers at West. If I may, Sean, a big part of what we're doing too. You know, it's as Greg mentioned, we've, without even really intending to, we've amassed quite a group of aviation professionals.

And these people are quite keen to not just have their own rights protected, but to use their credibility as a profession and use that to leverage their voice to speak on behalf. half of passengers. So this isn't something that we're suffering through, you know, trying to fight this fight on our own. We see that there is quite a symbiotic relationship to be had between us and our passengers. And together, we think we're greater than the sum of our individual parts. In that, we can amplify our voices. And at the same time, any accomplishment on protecting the rights of passengers should carry over into protection of. rights for the aviation professionals as well. At the end of the day, there's a lot of statutory law being cited here. There's a lot of exotic ways of governing that have been rolled out in

light of COVID-19. And at the end of the day, we're simply dealing with human rights. And human rights, they don't need to be written down. There's a subset of law that has been consistent through every culture, every civilization, regardless of when that civilization existed in history. And those core laws, you can call them natural laws. It's never okay to steal for your own benefit. It's never okay to deceive. It's never okay to initiate violence against your fellow man.

And these have never required governments to put into effect. We know these laws deep down inside. This is part of the human fabric. And so, you know, we are trying to, get this understood broadly that we are dealing here with human rights. And these are, you know, some of these lines in the sand that we're crossing are lines in the sand that exist in natural law. So if we can succeed in protecting the passenger's right to travel and the passengers' right to medical freedom and to medical privacy, then in theory, we should be able to

make those inroads with our own careers as well. How's it been going, fellas? Just curiosity's sake, you know, as we sit here today in recording tomorrow, you know, if you don't have the, if you're not fully vaccinated, you ain't getting on a plane. Well, here, I'll read off the rate from the website. It says the Canadian COVID-19 proof of vaccination is a reliable way for Canadians to show your COVID-19 vaccination history. When it comes to traveling, and where did it go? Of course, I lost it here. Well, these are the issues, Sean. Many of these orders are coming at us from different sources. One, you know, is a website publication. Another is, you know, delivered.

And here, Matt, I'll hop in. It says starting November 30th at 301 a.m. Eastern, vaccination will be required for travel within and to depart Canada. That's right on Canada's, you know, Government of Canada website. And then it carries on a valid COVID-19 molecular test will no longer be accepted as an alternative. So, I mean, that, I guess the reason, you know, when you first reached out or when Les first reached out, I was like, oh, like, the timing of it is almost like perfect, right? Like here we sit by the time this comes out, we'll be a day past that deadline. And, you know, now that's the new rule as it stands right now, I assume, right? If I go to an airport, I assume that's going to be enforced on me or on anyone for that matter. And I wonder how are things going from your guys' ends?

Because I assume neither of you are currently flying. No. We're not, well, we've been off work since the beginning of November, essentially. And that was brought about by the airline itself. Every airline had a mildly different nuance to how they played it, played it out. But we haven't been flying for the past month. So certainly from a professional standpoint, it's difficult for sure. But honestly, I'm more concerned about the broader direction,

our nation is going you know there's there's an aspect as matt was alluding to that yes i'm absolutely concerned and and 100 percent invested as is mad in our aviation professionals but but equally so every single canadian coast to coast so it's not going well that's how i'll that's how i'll summarize it it's uh no i'm stating the obvious which is is somewhat comical but but the hope is that we impact the broader narrative and that's really that's really where change has to come about. And you're reading off a screen there, the guidance, and we hear a lot of questions about it.

And we do our best to answer those questions, but I'll be honest, I have a really hard time keeping up with it because even the interim order changed us every couple weeks. And then there'll be a sub, you know, a sub change that'll come out in the peripheral. Then there's the smoke and mirrors, or the fog of war, I guess is a better phrase

that you'll see on social media, hey, we just heard that this happened and that happened. And a minority of the time, some of that information is correct, but I would say the majority of the time it's not. And it's frustrating because it creates this false hope in people that, hey, we somehow, through some peripheral means,

the government has acquiesced and we've changed it. There's some piece of law that nobody else thought about until the 25th of November, and we've slayed the dragon. And I honestly, that that was the case, but really until the population as a whole understands where this is going, whether it's in a boardroom or a courtroom, we don't see this turning around because CEOs and the rest of the C-suite judges and otherwise sway to the winds of public opinion. And this is where,

this is where it's so important that we've got 38,000 people in free to fly. And Matt and I are thrilled by that, but we're also quite pragmatic and say, listen, unless those 38,000 people, are actively engaged courageously in standing up for their freedom, then it's just a number on a screen. And this is the history of freedom. It doesn't come about simply. It comes about with great cost. And every single Canadian needs to understand that.

And until we get every Canadian to understand that and to go through something as simple as having a difficult conversation maybe with your neighbor. And these things are difficult. I get it. We're all sick and tired of talking about COVID and vaccines because they're often conflict-ridden conversations. And the best way to make headway with those conversations is through established relationship. It's not beating somebody over the head with a blunt instrument of data or another bit shoot video

because people aren't going to watch it, frankly. It's frequently in asking questions, one of which is what's your line in the sand, perhaps, right, is vaccinating your kid? You know, your six or seven-year-old kid, is that a line in the sand? there's all sorts of ways to go about it. So it's not going great, but we're hopeful in the sense that there is a growing portion of society, I think, that is starting to ask questions at the very least, and we have to really seize that and exploit it more broadly. Man, that's a, I keep looking for the November 25th.

We just slayed the dragon. We're going back, boys, and it's, everything's going to. to be okay. And then I sit there and have these conversations and Greg walks on here, grabs a two by four and slaps me upside to head and goes, where's your line all over again? And you go, all right. Yeah, this is, this is where we're at. Like this isn't, this is getting worse, not better right now. That's a scary thought. Well, I go back to, go ahead, man. No, go ahead, Greg. You finished that idea. Well, I was going to reminisce back to my childhood. Maybe that's not a great idea. I go back to, we grew up for a few years in Brussels, Belgium.

My father was posted there with NATO. And I think back to this is probably the genesis of my own deeply and great understanding of where liberty comes from. And we've gone to Vimy Ridge to tour around. And I don't know if you've ever been there. But it is absolutely breathtaking. It's this white spire essentially that stabs into the sky on the edge of this ridge. and it's surrounded by trenches and cross after cross. And my brother and I were probably, I don't know, 10 and 13 maybe at the time.

And we were kids, right? And we started running around on the edges of this monument. And my father was not an angry man, but he didn't particularly get angry, but he got incredibly stern. And I don't remember the exact words that he said, but he basically sat us both down and said, don't you ever, ever again, you know, play recklessly on a point. place like this and here's why. And I think that's the understanding that we've really got to grasp.

And I think what it did for me is I looked around Vini Ridge with perhaps more more understanding than I had a half hour prior and understood what all the crosses meant and what happened in those trenches and otherwise. And so you flash forward 40 years to where we are now. And I see what's happening around us through that same lens. And I look at it and I say we individually, each Canadian coast to coast has to understand that freedom comes back. Because honestly, I don't see us as free anymore. Freedom is returned by individual action, by courageous action, and by sacrifice. And that's how we turn it around.

We don't slay it through one single action. It's through a multiple, it's a battle on many fronts. And so it's probably going to happen through a variety of means, but it's through the courageous actions of every Canadian. And there is reason. to be optimistic too. You know, we live in an information age. And to a certain degree, the internet is still a free market of ideas. Certain venues on the internet are not or are becoming less and less so. But just by having these debates, just by having the ability to have these debates, we've

already got the most important part of orienting ourselves towards truth. We've already got that part on our side. Now, there are all kinds of things that are in our way, obstacles to getting there, but I think that we can surmount those. And really, if you look at history, it hasn't taken much more than 10 to 15 percent of the population saying, no, we're not going to do this. We're going to draw a line in in and we are going to defend that line. And typically that has been enough to make change. And we saw after the fall of the Soviet Union, really that the establishment of the Soviet Union had grown completely out of touch, and it had grown out of touch mainly because it had been insulated from truth. It didn't get feedback from its population. It couldn't get feedback from

its population. And so what it did do well, though, was to create the illusion of mass conformity and mass consent to the extent where even the establishment did not realize just how much of the population was against them in the end. And in fact, the population itself didn't realize that those who were against the system were actually in the majority. We only found that out after the iron Iron Curtain fell. So I suspect that in the COVID context, that there are a lot more people who are now paying attention. There are a lot more people who have intuitively sensed that something isn't right here and are now beginning to equip themselves with some kind of a platform for acting going forward. And so we need those people really to come forward to to join some kind of a movement,

join some kind of of collective voice so that they can be, they can play their part in amplifying their concerns. And we really need these people to begin speaking out. And this is, for for most people, this will be the extent of the action that is needed. It's just speaking out, putting your own credibility on the line, especially if you're somebody who has credentials that are respected in society, put those credentials and your credibility on the line and speak truth. Because at the end of the day, it's speaking truth to power that ultimately is what is going to bring us back to some semblance of normal. But it does require pushing through that discomfort. It does require even taking a certain degree of risk. But we ought to,

begin doing that now while it is still a matter of discourse because it it only gets darker if we go much further from where we are right now. Yeah, I agree with you with you boys. I'm curious when you know, when you look at Free to Fly and the group you guys have amassed and you just look across the country and realize there's like probably a thousand of these different groups, Not as big as yours, but certainly some is reputable. I mean, Mounties for Freedom is no small fry. Is there a way, I'm just spitballing here and seeing what sticks, so to speak, is there a way to get those to have everybody have their group,

but somehow build a house, so to speak, put all of them under there. So there's one key figure with the weight of all of Canada behind it to really cause some waves. And the reason I ask is, I guess here in Saskatch, and actually Alberta, I know of a ton of parent groups. They're doing, you know, they're trying to do the best they can for their kids. And what they've started doing is having behind closed doors meetings to try and align the groups, so to speak, because we all know power in numbers. And power in like aligning a message. Like this is the message. Here we go. Have you guys thought? of that? Or have there been conversations of that? Are you privy to talk about it?

Yeah, we've had conversations with other groups and I certainly support what you're saying, Sean, it's a conversation that occurs frequently between a lot of these groups. And it's, it's complicated, which sounds like a horrible Facebookism from 10 years ago, maybe, right? But it is complicated in the sense that there's a need for these individual groups for a number of reasons. You know, there's the obvious ones in the sense that the contractual issues, right, between something like aviation versus use the RCMP as an example. But there's places there where we do need synergy. And we have had conversations with these groups.

And there's actually, there's groups farming as well that are designed specifically to try and get these groups. together, right? So I would say that's a good thing, although it starts to sound, again, somewhat complicated is you've got several groups now. They're trying to coalesce these groups, but they're all really great people doing very important work, and we do need to find ways to, you know, to impact the narrative. You know, part of when we started Free to Fly was the power of archetype, and you see that with the RC&P folks as well, with Danny Bulford. I had the pleasure chatting with him on the phone last week just a little bit. For the same reasons that you're bringing up, Sean, is what are the similarities with

what we're doing? And there certainly are similarities and how can we impact the narrative more powerfully? But having somebody like a person in aviation, whether it's a pilot, flight attendant or otherwise, who is almost obsessive about safety, right? Looking for things that could go wrong, drilling into the data and that. the complexity of what's happening. That is important for what Matt was saying is you can stand up. And I would hope that the average Canadian would say,

well, hang on a second. These guys are not really fly by night. These are people that I will trust with my life to hurdle me into the sky for hours at a time. Right. And from the little I know about aviation, it's a pretty good gig. And it pays reasonably well. And these guys are giving it up.

Like there's got to be something there. or Danny who's, you know, sticking his neck out for obvious reasons and you say, wow, like there's, there's something there's something there that goes beyond what I'm hearing in the narrative. And I think that's, that is a part of the great concern. You know, I call it the Holy Grail is how we impact this, this mainstream. Because you see things like even today, I saw the results of a survey. And it was in the Toronto Star, which from the little I know of the Toronto Star has not been particularly supportive of some of the freedom. narrative, but a poll that was in the Toronto Star had 90 some percent that were opposed to vaccination. And to be honest with you, I'm not even sure what to think of it. But if you trust the credibility of it, you think, well, that's not quite what we're hearing from the mainstream, is that people are more concerned about this illusory safety than they are about their freedoms. And it's very difficult, as Matt said, to really understand the truth. Like truth has been lost. And I remember over and over with my teen boys who are now,

you know, late teens and 20s, repeating that, like truth is everything. When you lose truth, you have lost everything. And we have lost truth. You know, and the only way through the lies that we're living in is by standing on the truth and living it out, uh, sacrificially and courageously. So I've gotten long off what you asked is the initial question. Um, feeling like a politician now because we're in different territory. But Matt, Greg, yeah, I'll jump in because you make a good point there about truth. And the original question being about, you know, how these groups are somewhat disparate right now. And there's a thousand or more of them that exist in Canada.

But it's to Greg's point, truth really is everything. And we don't always know where the truth is. So, for example, what's great about a free market economy or capitalism, as we say, although I know that's a dirty word nowadays, but at least with a free market economy, we don't know where the price is of any given thing, but every transaction is a result of a negotiation, even when you're just passively taking a look at the price tag and going, oh, okay, I'll buy it for that or no, I won't buy it for that.

And so that process is really inherently somewhat confrontational. And that's a scary word because it implies fighting, but it's not that at all. And I shouldn't say confrontational. Maybe adversarial might be the better word. And that's what they use in our legal system. It's an adversarial process. And that adversarial process is part of how we arrive at some close proxy for the truth. And I believe that there might be an element of that going on with these different groups as well, though we're on good terms with all of them. and every one of them has a slightly different take on how we ought to fight this fight. And no one knows where the truth is. So it becomes somewhat of a free market of ideas. And I think as you see ideas beginning to gain traction, ideas that have the potential to be effective, you'll begin to see a natural consolidation of the movement. I hope.

This is what I hope because Greg and I have talked about this at, length. And we try not to let our own individual perspectives color, you know, the direction that free to fly goes at any given time. So I think you'll see that, you know, once we've found a tangible direction, a tangible strategy that this consolidation period will begin to happen organically. And this is, this, I believe, is really what we hope to see happen in the end. And ultimately, we are stronger as a, you know, consolidated movement. Yeah, the aligning the groups, the reason I bring it up is because I feel it in myself. So if I feel it, that means there's a ton of people that feel it.

You just just becoming like I want to be like all the groups are doing the right things. And you're absolutely right that they need, you know, Greg, you mentioned that, well, I mean, pilots need to fight for pilots. concerned parents need to fight for their kids. And it's hard to fight for kids over in Ontario when your kids sitting in small town, Saskatchewan. So does it need to be where the problem is? Absolutely. But on a general sense, this is a giant Canadian issue.

And I just look at all the groups and I go, man, they're all fighting for the same thing. If you had the same message and put the same message across the country, I feel like for the general population, it'd be really easy to digest, to chew on, just to be like, here's the message, short, concise, boom. And right away, like, you're seeing this like weird, cool underground network starting to happen. Well, I mean, just look at how you get hooked up with me. It's just this underground network that's happening free from corporate media that, you know, is being put together because people are wanting this conversation.

They're not wanting the conversation they're hearing elsewhere. And so I just look at it and I go, I think it's getting real close to the time that we need to figure out how to get all of us under the same roof so that it can become what it is. And what it is is a pretty powerful movement. It's just going in 20 different directions, a hundred different directions. And it doesn't take away from what you guys are doing or what the Mounties are doing or what concerned parents are doing or what, you know, like the, you know, there's a whole bunch of these. There's police. There's front line. They're all over the place. All the same idea, though. Freedom. ethics. It's all the same. And it doesn't take away that they shouldn't all be there. They should all be there.

But it's it's tiring the general population down because there's too many people to fall when in sense it should be consolidated. This is the message across Canada. Across the world at some point, right? Like I mean, everybody's dealing with this in some way, shape or form. I guess that's just my thought on it anyways. That's where I was wanting or obviously. curious about. Yeah. No, I think you're definitely on to something, Sean, and we've talked about the same thing. You know, I would say we're somewhere near the pointy end of this beer here, but I'll hop online on a Sunday night or a Monday morning, and I'll discover there was a great big rally down the road for me on Saturday, and somehow I didn't hear about it. And I'd like to think that, you know, so that's a very simplistic, if you will, administrative issue, but it's a pretty critical one and I'll say even just to these rallies which I know isn't specifically what you're

talking about but there's a there's a certain place for them for sure I personally think the greatest benefit in these rallies is not so much there's an importance in people being there we see that even within our group people will say over and over we've heard it so many times I thought I was the only one or I thought it was me and my two buddies I thought I thought I was alone and then they have this moment of relief and they're emboldened because they're amongst people that are of like mind. But what I think is important with what you're talking about, if you use the example of a rally, and these worldwide freedom rallies, for instance, right, like they are getting, they're getting sizable. You look at certainly what's happening over in Europe. I don't, I did, there's a place for

everybody that's there, but I think what is almost equally, if not more important is the people that are walking by who aren't quite sure, and that can be walking by from a media perspective or literally walking by in the street and saying, wow, there's, there's thousands and thousands of people there, right? Like in my local town, which is not particularly big early on in this COVID season that we're in, we started some local rallies. And I'll tell you, it was pretty uncomfortable because there was maybe 30 of us, right? And there was a lot of, you know, lumberjack coats and otherwise standing out there and people driving by. And it's not a lot of fun to be one of 30 people in a small town holding a placard, let me tell you.

But when you're one of 1,000 or one of 10,000 or 100,000, oh, you go back to this is where I invoke. Yeah, it's comfort in numbers. Right. It's, it's Matt tires of me bringing up. This is the Solzhenitsyn, Matt, by the way. But, you know, he's got a moment where he talks about that. You know, if there was 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 of us, they wouldn't recognize our country.

So I went to the first responders, first responders rally, for instance, in Toronto, back several months ago. And I've been to a number of these rallies. And that was probably one of the most powerful ones I went to. And I'll tell you why, in part, was because there wasn't a stage in a microphone. And sometimes what's set on the stage is famous. fantastic, but there's other times where it's kind of like an open mic at a wedding, where you're thinking, oh, man, I wish we hadn't passed that microphone to everybody, right? And don't get me wrong. There's great things that are said, but sometimes what's said is more damaging to the broader narrative, but to see, I can't remember how many were there. I don't want to exaggerate it. There was 100, there was 100, 200, something like that. Guys, girls sat standing there in mostly blue t-shirts, just silently standing. And it was, incredibly powerful because you knew what they did for a living. You knew that they were out there with their faces shown and they were just standing there and people that walked by it sent a message without having to say anything with a microphone. And so to your point, I think that's the value is in people seeing that there is a huge number. And so I'm just agreeing. I'm violently agreeing with you, I guess, in saying, yeah, I think there is a need to find a way with we do have our own niches that we do need to exploit. but we do need to find a way to coalesce so that the rest of society that's kind of sitting on the fence thinking,

I don't really care which direction this goes as long as I kind of get back to where I was, which I think is a little bit short-sighted because in my view, and I would say, you know, all of us on this call, going along with what's happening ends up in a very, very dark place. The fact you bring up soldier in it's and tells me enough, you know, we've talked to all. awful lot about that on here. I just, I just, I just think, you know, united we stand, divided we fall. And right now, as united as certain groups are, we're still all divided. And it's just getting exploited over and over and over again. And listen, I, I, I, a lot of what I do on here, I think about a lot of it. And then other parts just kind of have been coming up in

conversation lately. So I wasn't planning on going down this road. But I just sit here and I, I think about what you guys are doing. You're another group of people. Sorry, of course, we know the Julie Pinesse of the world, and I've had on here the Eric Payne and the Daniel Nagase, and the different, you know, the Dan Bolford, all these different people doing jobs they absolutely love. At the pinnacle of their careers, one might argue,

who are all giving it up. And that should give everyone pause. And I think it does. but the longer we go on here, I just think, and yet they're unveiling five to 11 year olds here in Saskatch when you got the president of the Teachers Association pushing for all children to be fully vaccinated and staff to be fully vaccinated to be in school learning. And you go, man, and yet we still have a ton of pressure happening at all these different institutions trying to tell them to stop and they're not. And it's, you know, I wonder,

if there isn't a better way and I keep searching for the solution and you two sitting here, you know, I go, I wonder if Matt or Greg has any great solution. And that's what the audience wants. They want to, what's the solution boys? Like where, where do we get to? Nobody wants it to get worse. And it feels like it has to get worse, which sucks. But like, where's the solution? How do we get out of this thing? My answer would be imperfect, probably to an extreme degree. But I would suggest that it's as simple as living in truth. But this is a scary thing for people because I think a lot of people who, you know, typically get their information in more conventional ways,

are aware that there is a difference between the information that they're getting and the reality on the ground. But to confront that often results in cognitive dissonance. And cognitive dissonance is a discomfort that most people are not willing to push through. I would suggest that we all ought to get comfortable pushing through that cognitive dissonance. And I can only speak for myself personally, but I'm satisfied that there is an ideology that is sometimes perceptible, but is often invisible. And it is not only prevailing through most aspects of society, but it is full.

on dominating our worldviews. And we really ought to take stock of where ideology begins and truth ends, as uncomfortable as that might be, such that we can at the very least make better decisions. And if we're not living in accordance with truth, then the decisions that we make become uncalibrated with reality. And those decisions compound upon one another. And the The inverse is also true. Making better decisions will improve all aspects of your personal life because those decisions compound upon one another. And so this is maybe to tear a page out of Jordan Peterson's playbook, but it's first principles. It's make your bed. It's clean your room, get your affairs in order. It's live and let live. It's do unto others as you'd have them do unto you.

It's very, very basic stuff, you know. But again, it does have that component of discomfort. And I would urge people to push through that discomfort. Yeah, I mean, if I can be really bold, Sean, I hear what you're asking. And it's a common question that we get from some like yourself, but also within our, without our own group. And what lies beneath it sometimes is a desire. And I get it because I'm like this in my own life in all sorts of areas, is a desire to be essentially handed a template for how to get through the.

or better yet have somebody else do it for you right is uh is is is how are you going to fix this or could you just provide me something fairly simple to where i can fill in a couple blanks and make this happen and the blunt truth to everybody is we do not get out of this that way uh it's it's refusing to comply with nonsense with with what's amounting to insanity and it's incredibly uncomfortable you know i don't i don't enjoy conflict i'm the kind of guy that uh i like to just lift my life quietly and be left alone for the most part, right? It's independence and just kind of, I used to call myself the gray man. I wanted to retire from my airline and somebody say, who's Greg Hillie? Never heard of them, right? Like that's my preferred way of living. But we don't

get out of this by outsourcing the solutions to anybody other than yourself. And part of why we started this group is the whole concept of courage begets courage. And as you watch people, whether it's some like you mentioned, Sean, Julie, Byram, others, watch them stick their necks way out. And, you know, to use battle analogy, that's, that's how, you know, a platoon charges a hill is the guy out front steps out and then everybody else follows. And some of it, again, Courageby gets courage. You don't want to let the people down beside you. And as you start to form numbers and that's where these groups come from, you start to have courage in it. but it takes individual action within your own sphere of influence.

Again, whether that's within your neighborhood or whether it's more boldly within your own job and finding yourself, as Matt and I are, pursuing all sorts of strange career paths that we never foresaw even a month ago, right? It's almost, I could tell you some funny stories. And we hear this from within our group. I was laughing with somebody today. It's back when I was about 12, I went through this phase wanting to be a truck driver. This was back in the BJ and the Bear days. And you're probably not old enough to remember that, nor is Matt.

But it's it was a guy in his, he had a grizzly bear in his truck, as I vaguely recall. It was many years ago. But I went through this fascination with trucks all over my wall. Well, I'm contemplating similar. And there's some guys within our, even within our circle of pilot friends who I'm living vicariously as they send me pictures of their, of their truck. Right. And we laugh about it because that's how you cope with some of these things. But it's, you get a whole new appreciation for life.

But that's really the kind of steps that have to be taken. Hmm. Here, I might, you know, you wonder if you're, obviously, we're products over time. From one essence, you've brought up Soljinnitzen, another, Jordan Peterson. definitely have you know I lend a lot of credit to Jordan Peterson not for anything he did for me personally other than reading his book and how much that impacted me personally and that's how this podcast gets started right that's that's exactly how this gets started so I I see similarities coming time and time again with the people who are sounding the warning bell right now and it's people who've read you know

I don't know how you come out of Soljonitz and and not see similarities that should scare the advance off you. And Jordan Peterson, you know, if you're not going to stand up for what you believe, then, you know, tell the truth or at least don't lie, right? That's right. And you see, you start to see the similarities of the people that are, you know, do you want to poke your head up? No. But how can I sit there and read one thing and agree with it vehemently? And then when the pressure cooker comes, I just fold like a cheap tent. It's like, it's this weird feeling to who have read something and then have to have it, you know, like have to put it into action what feels like so quick. And the thing with solutions is you want it, like we live in a day

and age where the solution should be that easy. Like honestly, it should be build a template, Greg. And then give it to everybody. This is the template. Go use it. Okay, sounds great. Boom. Way we go. That's the day and age we live in. And yet what you're asking and what you're telling both of you is something that is so foreign to all of us, or at least it feels foreign, in that, listen, you're going to have to act this out over and over and over again. And more people are going to have to start acting it out over and over and over again. And this is going to take time and effort. And even then, it could get worse. And that thought in itself is really, I struggle with. Like, think about that. That's a tough thought process to go down. Yeah. No, I know.

Let me be very, very clear, too. Like, you know, Matt and I kind of joke and we just say, you know, we're just a couple dumb pilots fumbling our way through here. And I'll tell you, I lay in bed wondering a lot of things. And Matt's heard me say this many times, but the line between courage and stupidity is sometimes fairly thin. And there's moments where I genuinely wrestle with that. And I think, like, what am I doing, right?

Like I look at some of the ways I'm contemplating, earning an interest. income and putting groceries on the table for my family. And I'm thinking, seriously? Right. Like it's it's a long ways away from where I was as an airline captain a month ago, right? But but I'm unequivocally convinced that we are on the righteous path. And we are on it. We are on the right side of history. The nuances though are challenging. And I want to make it clear to everybody. This is not something that is crystal clear every day. It is, as you said, Sean, and it's something you wrestle with every day and you have to. And I think the people over the course of history,

whether it's social and et cetera, as you brought up Jordan Peterson, who also had a phenomenal impact in really turning my life around as well a number of years ago, wrestled with every single day. And that's partly why what he has to say is so compelling because I watch him agonize over it, right?

Well, that's the thing. This is, agonize is probably a good word, right? like you're not saying go without a sassparilla for a month and that's going to be tough on you but just suffer through it and you'll be good like here's the light at the end of the tunnel this is like listen there's the path i can tell you how long you're going to be on it i can certainly tell you it's not going to be fun and easy but that's the path that that we need to go down and that's what the general population And listen, if they're terrified of that, fair enough. Because that's a terrifying idea when you could just be working your job and everything else. But the thing is, is where the comfort comes in the other path is what you can't see is the 10 years down the road where it gets pretty gruesome and awful and everything else.

Because that's what history is showing us. I'm sure Matt, like that's the thing. Easy. The comfort of today, well, watch. for when that strikes and you can't put that back in the box, so to speak? It seems to be a natural pattern that recurs throughout history. One generation sacrifices everything for the comfort and security of the following generations. And that goes for two or three generations.

And by the third or the fourth, I'm not sure what the number would be. But eventually, people grow comfortable and they grow, I don't want to use the word lazy, but, you know, all mammals and probably animals in general tend to try to conserve energy. And, you know, when something's working, why change it? So we've grown comfortable and there are, you know, some serious detriments to sitting on our laurels now. We really ought to come together and we don't have to agree with one another, but we certainly must recognize that there's a universality to freedom, that this is something that we all share, our love of life and the desire to live in a society with soul, to live in a family that has soul. And I mean, that that means

celebrating things. That means acting like a kook every once in a while. That means partying. That means just just enjoying being in this life, right? At the end of the day. And if you can't do those things on your own terms, spontaneously even, organically, then you're not living in a society that's really worth living in. And so this is where we go if we don't defend what we've enjoyed all our lives so far in Canada. We will end up in a society that is essentially run by statisticians. And I've often joked in my own circle, but even, you know, just for myself, why are we listening to doctors? We ought to be, if safety is the primary concern of our government,

well, why aren't we listening to insurance companies? They're the ones that can quantify the risk of anything. And I think you would find if we did listen to insurance companies and structured our society around their advice, that we would all live in bubble-wrapped rooms, rubber rooms with bubble-wrap around us. We'd have our food predigested, and it would be given to us through a feeding tube.

And in the end, we'd all be very safe. But we, you know, we wouldn't live. You wouldn't get out and you wouldn't see those sunsets from the peak of a mountain. You wouldn't see the Mona Lisa. You wouldn't hear a symphony. You wouldn't fall and hurt yourself and experience the love of your family in healing again. You know, there's all kinds of things that, you know, we can't really quantify, but that really do indelibly impact us in a soulful way.

And I really want to see society get back to a point where it can just be. And freedom is the way to do that. But Matt, you wouldn't hurt yourself. You wouldn't have any broken bones. Your food would be just mushy. I mean, you wouldn't have to worry about choking on anything. And, you know, what would life be without risk? Some of the most enjoyable memories I've had, I've had to take a risk to get to.

So this is how it goes. that's that's an interesting sentence right there what would life be without risk and you know i'm looking at two guys who you know when i get on a plane i try not to think about it because if i think about it i can cause myself a little bit of stress and i'm not a guy who's worried about flying but when you think about it you go you look out and you go oh man we go down i'm toast here's a guy here's two guys that made their life around flying people all over the world. I mean, if that's,

that right there is life with risk, isn't it? Well, and, you know, as a culture, we are adverse to taking risks. As soon as we put our uniforms on,

every decision we make is, is based on the successful outcome of the flight. Protecting our passengers. I mean, this is a duty-bound type of profession. We really take the duty that we owe to the, the public seriously when we go to work. So if you ever end up in a situation, you see in a flight deck where two pilots are, or three, however many, are consciously deciding to take a risk,

chances are it's because the situation has already devolved to the point where there is no other option. So to Greg's point earlier, and I echo his sentiment, I'm not the type of person that wants to stick out. I do not want to be on the pointy end of a spear, especially in a social movement. But we are now at that point where we have no other options. We have to take risks, and we're going to have to put ourselves out there in order to get society back on track going in the direction that it ought to go. Yeah, it says, I think, oh, sorry. Oh, good. Well, earlier we were talking about the one-dimensional, and I can't recall exactly the context, but I think that's really the problem with where we've gone as a society is we've moved to the place where we're

nothing but biotic beings. You know, it's this idea of, you know, you're robotic almost, that all your, the ultimate goal is to keep the heart pumping as long as possible. And you, you go and you talk to people in old age homes, for instance, we've got a 93-year-old friend who's locked up in what's the equivalent of a cell at an old age home and ask, and ask, them how much they're enjoying their beating heart at this point. And I know this topic has been beaten to death over the past year, at least within our own circle. So I won't go on about it. But this is the problem with the one-dimensional. It ignores everything else that it has to do with being human. One of which is the need to work. This is really a pre-political matter. Being able

to work is not simply a matter of earning an income. it also is a deeply psychological thing that is absolutely necessary for a human being to feel like they are determining their own outcome in all sorts of quantifiable ways. Yes. Well, I'm not going to hold you guys here for the rest of the day. I've really enjoyed this. Before I let you get off, though, we do a little thing right at the end. It's the Crude Master final question.

Shout out to Heath and Tracy McDonald. They've been supporters of the podcast since it's stuff. started. The first time guys come on here, I always ask the same question. And it is, if you could sit down where I'm sitting and you can take your choice of somebody living on the planet right now and pick their brain about what's going on, who would you take? I'd probably say Jordan Peterson. I mean, that's the easy one. I don't mean to go for the low-lying fruit. What would I ask him, though, I'd probably ask him what it is that humanity needs the most right now. And I would ask, what is it that we need to do to get everybody getting in that direction?

Because this is really the question I have in my head every night when I'm going to sleep. So I'd want to know what he thought about that. Yeah, I would have given the same answer in part due to my own. history there and it sounds like Sean your your life course was altered for similar reasons so I would say mine was was dramatically altered similarly similarly about four years ago and so it's it's an easy one to get to just given where we're at alternatively I'd say Justin Trudeau maybe and I'd have more than a couple questions to ask that's that's more of a comical answer than it is maybe a serious one so there I mean there

There's a lot of good questions, I think, that need to be asked of people that I think we would all say need to be thinking beyond the one dimensional, which seems to be what, uh, what, as far as they're going right now, right? So I don't know. It sure would be interesting to see what Alexander Solzhenitin would have to say about all this, though. If you could transplant them and bring them forward. I, I tell you what, I don't know what, which one I'd pay more for. Matt with Jordan Peterson or Greg. with Trudeau. Honestly, I would love to have Trudeau sit across me just to ask some like, because, you know, Jordan Peterson's in Florida now, right? Like, I want to sit with Jordan Peterson,

would love to. But right now, as it sits in Canada, I want somebody sitting in Canada that's going through this right now to tell me why we're still doing this one, this one direction, this one dimension, why we're just headlong into it. Well, I think the reason, Sean, is, is we'd like some accountability. I think that's why, right? It's because there seems to be little accountability within that class for the decisions that are being made. That's the reason maybe, would you say?

Yeah, I would agree. You know, I would just like, the other thing I would just like to put some trust back in to the people running the country. And I don't know if that's possible at this point. And I had once upon a time a man I respect said, we lack vision and our leaders, like our leaders lack vision.

and now I just you see it just over and over and over again because I mean like just like well this is where it's going to play out to and when we get there I mean you're going to have a you know I'm going back a couple months like everybody knew not everybody but everybody in these social circles we're like so what are they going to do when they start failing and boosters come are they going to knock everybody back to unvaccinate oh wait we're getting close to that and they're just instead of taking the step of maybe like testing for natural immunity. or any of the lovely things we all know we talk about, it's going to be boosters.

And we're going to go down that road for another six months till summer. And then at summertime, we're going to have a big, well, we're going to do it again for another year. Or are we going to start to change things? And, well, I tell you what, I'm going to, I think at this point, Justin Trudeau is probably a longer shot than getting Jordan Peterson.

That's saying something. I would love to get Jordan Peterson. I've been working on that one for a long time, more for a personal reason. I mean, as all three of us can probably attest. But to have him talk to the situation, at this point on anyone's podcast, it would be very fascinating to listen to. I'd pay money to see that one.

And, you know, if we have maybe a minute for one last anecdote, I think a lot of this has to do with our relationship with law. And we ought to consider what law is. I understand that's almost a goofy question. It seems so obvious. well, law is what we follow. But most people's conception of law is that it's dictated by some legislative process, and it's written down, and then it comes to us, and we follow it to the letter.

But there's an anecdote in history that I think a lot of your viewers might appreciate, and it comes to us by way of the Titanic situation. And there was a lot of really interesting legal situations that came out of the Titanic sinking. And for example, the Titanic, when it sailed on its maiden voyage, had two more lifeboats, I believe it was two, than what the statutes required. So they had actually gone above and beyond what the statutes had required. Now, that gives us an indication of how effective law can be or not be if it's inconsistent with nature. So, sure, maybe you complied with the statutes, but what about the other 65% of the passengers who don't have lifeboat. So that's one interesting point. Law must be consistent with nature if it's written down

statutes. Another one came out of the tribunals that were held after, and the first officer was the highest ranking, sorry, second officer was the highest ranking survivor of the crew, and I believe his name was Lytaller. And they asked him, they were quite concerned about the order women and children first, because there was no law of the sea that was written down that had women and children going on to lifeboats first. So they asked him, where did you come up with this? And his answer was, it's the law of humanity. And that's an interesting answer

because it didn't require any law to be written down for everybody to understand that there weren't enough lifeboats for everybody. The children have the most to lose and the children need their mothers. So women and children first. It's an example of how law can form spontaneously without any kind of government oversight.

But what's interesting, and this is sort of the final folly, is what happens when law is not properly understood by those who are executing it or are adjudicating it. And there were some instances in the Titanic of the sinking, rather, that highlighted this fact. For example, some of the crewmen who were lowering the lifeboats had heard the order, women and children first and had interpreted it as women and children only. So, so there were instances where, where there was room in the boat and men just simply weren't being let on. So I think we can,

we can take that anecdote and maybe tease out a little bit of wisdom that that might apply in our own lives here as we make our way through COVID. Well, boys, this has been thoroughly enjoyable. I always enjoy all my sit downs, but this one surprised me a bit. Obviously, I didn't know either of from a hole in the wall. So to sit down and meet you guys and just hear a little bit about what you're doing, well, I just thoroughly appreciate both of you coming on and give me a bit of your time and a bit of your brains into this conversation that so many of us are following along with and hoping, you know, on that, well, not November 25th anymore, but maybe Christmas Day,

there will be that spear that goes through the collective heart and away we go, Greg. I don't know, but chances are. We're, Matt Springs Eternal. Well, I appreciate you guys coming on. Hey, thanks for having us, Sean. It was a lot of fun. We sure appreciate it chatting with you. Thanks for tuning in today, folks.

Appreciate all you guys, tuned in and make sure to subscribe, hit that subscribe button and leave a review. Believe me, it helps when you guys are interacting. If you want to help out today, let me know what you think of the new website. I had a website rolling along for both a lot. last year and a half, something like that. And as of this week, it got a facelift. It's brand new.

Just go to shan Newmanpodcast.com. And let me know what you think. I'd be curious to hear what all you brilliant people have to say about it. And if you're listening to this late to the end, obviously you care. And I appreciate what your thoughts are. And finally, to Grant, who's been all over me about how to help the podcast, he's been wanting to support me for months now. I've been dodging them while Grant you finally got your wish.

In the show notes, I finally set up a Patreon account. So in the show notes, you can click on it. And if you want to help that way or go to the Sean Newman Podcast.com, and in the top right corner there is a support button, both lead back to the Patreon account. By no means do you have to do anything, just having you guys interact and hit the text line and everything else is pretty cool. But I am trying to listen to you more, and Grant has spoke for a lot of you in that. that you're interested in supporting the podcast.

And if you want to do that, head over to Patreon. I appreciate anything you guys do. You know that by now. So thanks for tuning in again. We will catch up to you guys next week.