Shaun Newman Podcast - #294 - Clint Chocan

Episode Date: July 27, 2022

He is the coordinator of FNMI (First Nations, Metis, Inuit) learning & curriculum in the LPSD. We discuss First Nations history, repairing relationships, different worlds and correlation between residential schools & the prison system. Let me know what you think Text me 587-217-8500 Support here:⁠ https://www.patreon.com/ShaunNewmanPodcast⁠

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I'm talking about Clint Chokin. So buckle up. Here we go. This is Clint Chokin and welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Well, welcome to the Sean Numer podcast today. I'm joined by Clint Chokin. I can try and get it better than that, but I think Clint, that's the best you're getting from me today. There's some other pronunciations to it.

that's most common I guess well I appreciate you coming in and doing this with me it's been something since I had Albert Jimmy in and that was a year ago and so I've been waiting to release that one it's one of the archives and I learned about his life living out in Onion Lake and some of the things you know that I just I constantly want to learn like I love learning new things. And he just taught me a lot, even in a short, you know, interview span. And I waited a long time to talk about it again because I was kind of waiting for it to release so that the viewer could listen to it.

And then when they did, they were like, holy man, that was unbelievable. Like, you've got to do that again. Not that we can recreate it, but just more in trying to learn about, you know, part of our area, a part of our history, and some of that has been, you know, whether it wasn't taught or I wasn't paying attention, I don't know. I just, I look at it and I go, the more we can learn and start to share some stories and hear, and maybe that's already out there and I'm just living under a rock. That's very possible. But I appreciate you coming in and doing this. Well, thanks for having me. The one thing that many people don't understand is that

there are many Canadians that actually don't know the history or the culture of indigenous people in Canada. And it's from, it was hidden. It was hidden by the government. And all the things that were occurring in these communities were placed, they weren't brought out. and it was because of the control that the government had over indigenous people. So what you're saying is I shouldn't beat myself up that I didn't know all this because the government pretty much didn't teach us about it. It was the, like you said, that it was hidden

and it was the fact that Canadian society had, its own society. And then the First Nations were placed and also the Métis as well were placed in areas where they were kept segregated really. And so this had happened for over 100 years. And it kind of just started coming out in the 60s. And then even more so, even more so in the 70s. And then in the 70s is when the control over the residential schools, in Indian, at that time the term was Indian, Indian schooling started moving, shifting toward First Nations control. Sometimes I get mixed up with the term Indian and First Nations because at one time it was hard for, actually we had, when I was working over at Lakeland, Lakeland College,

we started a reconciliation speaker series. And one of our first speakers was Fred's a sackmuse. We brought them in. And so I spent a couple days with Fred during that time. And during that time, during his visit, He had shared that when he did his presentation that evening at the college, he called himself an Indian. And he still called himself an Indian because it took him so long to be comfortable as being known as an Indian. And so First Nations or Native terms came later, but it took him so long that he just, I think his book is named Call Me Indian.

And so it took him that long just to be comfortable with who he was. Because in residential school, they weren't allowed to acknowledge their, their call me. culture, their heritage, their identity. That's, I don't know. It's, it's, I find the subject sitting on this side, like listening. I'm like, I don't even know how to like find the right words, right? I'm just like, this is exactly what I said, Delver Jimmy. And like, and I fast forward and I haven't improved any.

I want to learn, but I find like the subject on this side sitting here. And I don't know if this is right or not, Clint. I feel like there's landmines everywhere, and I'm like, I just, if I don't move, then I don't hit any kind of thing, but I don't progress. And I look at this conversation and conversations, hopefully, you know, as I move forward, as something that is drastically needed in Canada specifically, maybe the United States, maybe other, but I can't focus on that. I focus on my area. I just, I see an issue, and I'm like, oh, there's got to be ways to, you know, solve this, get good people in a room who, want the best and ask some questions and just listen and see where it goes. So I guess when I hear that, I go, there's a lot there. So how about we start with some of your childhood and just

see where it goes? Well, brought up and raised on the Yonnie Lake First Nation back then. It's funny because when I talk about my childhood and the upbringing that I had, my wife, who happens to be non-Indigenous. She's from Lashburn. She's from the Staniforth clan. Your love. Well, I laugh because my wife teaches out in Lashburn at the elementary school.

And it feels like everywhere I go in Lloyd, you know, they talk about Saskatchewan, infiltrated Alberta, right? Everybody left. It's like everybody from Lashburn is everywhere, right? Like, it's wild. Yeah, there's always a connection to Lashburn. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, great sports town I'm learning. I don't like to say that aloud, obviously being from Helmand, but I mean, it's hard to deny.

You know, and I learned that way back when when I first started the podcast. Gordreden had went and played where in Lashburg, right? And they were an affiliate of Weyburn and so on and so forth. And I mean, my brothers have played ball there and hockey and everything else. So whatever they got there, it seems to work. Well, you've been Reggie Leach. Yeah, Reggie Leach, yeah, that's right. And it's funny because I always, anyone that I talked to in Lloyd or wherever, there was a connection to Lashburn, the Thompson's. They have Thompson, the Thompson that's playing in. In, for Las Vegas. Las Vegas, yeah. And, yeah, connection to Lashburn. Yeah, it's wild.

But anyway, so my wife grew up in Lashburn. And obviously I grew up in Onion Lake. And when I talk about the upbringing that I had, she can't relate to the upbringing that I had. But my in-laws, on the other hand, it was kind of like the same upbringing as what they went through. So it was kind of like we were behind times, 20 years behind times growing up on the reserve. So nowadays, it's kind of, it's pretty well at par with, in terms of housing opportunities. There's education is pretty close to being at par. There's four schools there. There's a rink.

Isn't there a fifth school on the way, an onion? There's four. The fourth one was just built. I must be remembering that wrong. When we did bike for breakfast the first year, we, I thought there was five schools, but it doesn't matter. I thought the fifth was being built. It doesn't matter if I'm wrong on that.

But there's a ton of kids out in Onion Lake. It's surprised. Oh, sorry. You're right. There is five, right? Hey. When we did bike for breakfast the first year, I think, well, they had like, I think it was close to 1,500 students at the time.

I mean, that's at least a year ago now as we record this. So we did everything by how many years student population was. And I think everybody in the group when we started, you know, because we went as far north as Onion Lake to Paradise Hill to Maidstone, Neil Bird, PV, Kid Scotty Marwain, Dewberry, like that reach everywhere in, you know, it was 33 or 34 schools somewhere there. And Onion Lake, I think, shocked everybody because, you know, we got the numbers back. And I was like, holy man, like, I would have no idea. Well, there's a lot of people don't realize that there's over 6,000 people out there. And so, like, it's, and growing really quick. So the numbers of

schools usually it's projected to a certain amount for for that year and by the time they build the the school it's already at capacity and so they they usually need to add portables whatever it takes but yeah it's it's it's growing really quick so so with the just growing up in Any Lake that Back then, we only had three schools, and the opportunity wasn't quite there. There were some things you could do, but there wasn't a lot of extracurricular, only in school, but even then there wasn't that much. You mean like you could play volleyball in badminton, or you mean? Volleyball, badminton, but it was all in school.

The extracurriculars activities were all in school. The only thing outside of school was ball and hockey, like most communities, I guess, back in the day. But there weren't anything like other sports that, like soccer wasn't even played when going up. Golf wasn't around quite yet. Just not a lot of things to do. It was a, I guess, you have to find your own activity to keep yourself busy at times. And a lot of the home life, many families had pretty good,

a pretty good home life, but there were those that didn't really. And sometimes, sometimes I think back then there were more that didn't. But now it's improving. It has improved.

Home life has improved? Yeah. I guess the one thing that that people need to understand is that it's a totally different way of life. It's a totally different perspective to life. With mainstream Canadian society, it's driven by capitalism. The indigenous communities and reserves are more driven by spirituality.

And so they're trying to, and when it in the terms of spirituality, when I say spirituality, it's the, it's the knowledge of how everything is connected in this universe. And so we give, or we not necessarily give, but we view as a lot of things. we give them spiritual value. So everything from, of course, there's the Creator, Mother Earth, there's the winds, the four directions, there's water, there's fire, there's the rocks, there's the trees, all the animals. And then we believe that we're connected to them. And so you hear the terms.

something like Grandmother Moon or Grandfather Rock or Brother Bear or sister or grandmother Willow or and all these terms there it's we believe that we're connected to to them through kinship because there's that connection that spiritual connection there's always the belief that we're connected to everything. Is that something then, then you talk about the mainstream Canadian life? Do you notice that we just lack that? Or is it different?

It's a very different perspective to Mother Earth, well, in land in general, like in animals, or things. that we have in creation. We, let's say the land, with the land, when the Confederation moved in, after confederation when the Canadian government came and wanted to negotiate treaties, they wanted to make treaties with First Nations, they're

view was, they were thinking, well, their perspective was that they were going to own the land. And First Nations people couldn't understand, they couldn't grasp that concept. Because for First Nations people, the land owns them. And so that was the belief that how can one man own land? not be shared. So that with those whole negotiations, the First Nations thought that they were sharing the land and not necessarily, it wasn't. This is yours and this is mine and stay where you are and I'll stay where I am. Yeah, it wasn't that. They thought it was a little more harmonious. because at one time before the government moved in there was fur trade and during that fur trade

there were people were living in harmony what what is the first nation's view then of the government you know I sit and watch I brag pretty hard on our government right now on a lot of the things they say and do or don't do, et cetera, et cetera. And I'm just a young guy who, you know, started paying attention not that long ago, Clint. And I sit and I go, to be told stories of the last hundred years or longer of what this government and other governments have done, I'm curious, then, like, is there any repairing that relationship? Because I don't feel like it's just as simple as we'll give you a couple things and it's all good, is it? No. To this day, First Nations people still live under the Indian Act. It's an

act that was made prior to treaties. And what this act did was it made or it deemed the First Nations as wars of the state. And so to this day, there's that, there's that law in place where everything has to be run through the government. We can't have self-government. We can't have our own election act unless it passes through their system. And all these, we can't deem who is First Nations or not. It has to go through them. And so people that say, why are you trying to live in the past when we're talking about treaties?

Because we are living in the past. As wards of the state. Right. As under this Indian Act. And so it won't change unless we change all those policies that they have in place for, for indigenous people. So many First Nations people do not trust the government.

And then there are some that I guess they've come to live in a way so that they they're in good standing.

It's almost like you're taught that you're taught so that you have to be in good standing at all times. What does that mean? Good standing. Good standing, that you're not seen as a, that you're not seen against, against the government. Or against the establishment?

Yeah, like, I wouldn't say good standing would be more like, as a good person in society because there are some things that just don't make sense for indigenous people. One being land. The land. And then the justice system. What is it about the justice system? There's so many things that have happened in history

that have kind of curved the way the system sees or views indigenous people. And I think that stems from the residential schools. So at residential school, they're away from their families. They were given numbers. They were placed in these institutions where they were isolated from one gender to the other or from family. And then when they're done, residential school, when they're finished and they're sent back home,

the only way of life that they know is that institution. And so some believe that that's where is the other place that actually gives you a number. or is another place that gives you a place to sleep. You're in isolation is either penitentiary or a jail of some sort. So, like many, believed that it was a feeder system for that. And it came to be at a point where more and more were coming that it generated jobs. That's just the view that some people and myself have. It almost, see if I can spit this out the right way, but it created a cycle of people going into jails, which made them full,

which means you needed to build more jails, which created jobs. And it was coming from a population, a certain demographic, and it just kind of fed on itself. And it kept going and cycling. And so when you talk about intergenerational trauma and the traumas that are suffered in those, especially in the residential schools, and they come out and they don't have,

a way of dealing with them they end up doing something that makes them or and makes them end up in in jails yeah I'd heard about intergenerational trauma and I can't sit here and say that I was like oh yeah that completely makes sense but Albert Jimmy I don't know I'll talk about this he talked about his you know his father coming out of the residential school and being an alcoholic and and you know I can't say I ever grew up with an alcoholic father but from the stories and everything else and he just talked about what that did to him and then he went to residential school and people can go back and listen and he talked about how he was around his own kids until he got a little bit older and and found a way to

reconnect with the spiritual side and he said my grandkids kids have never seen me drink and I was like oh it's like a light bulb moment I don't every once in a while on the podcast it's just you know I could be slow clinic that could be very well in but every once in while I was just like oh that makes come I'm like oh I get it right like I get it like kids growing up under that you know there's sponges they soak in their environment and everything else and then they go perpetuate that for the next generation right and so what you're talking about is something I have

a really hard time understanding until I heard that and so I actually when you're when you bring it up I'm like yeah that makes that makes a lot of sense it's it's not an easy as a younger guy I always just assumed this was an easy fix like and it was really arrogant and probably me just not fully understanding the situation right but I was like oh I just feel like there's lots of good people everywhere let's just let's let's fix the problem but intergenerational trauma The amount of kids that came through a system that was completely, well, didn't have, I don't know what the word there to say is.

It's not my words, probably to say, but at the end of the day, offside. What it did was it ruined a lot of kids for the rest of their lives, which then translates, you know, cascades downward and downward. So what I'm learning is, and why I want to continue to have conversations like this, is a solution just isn't snap a finger and it's fixed. So the one thing that I've been working with, I'm actually a co-chair of the Heart of Treaty 6th Reconciliation Circle. And what we're basically trying to do there is trying to educate many, like yourself, that had no clue with what had occurred.

and in order to, like I always say, in order to make things better, there needs to be an understanding. But before the understanding comes, you need to educate. And when you educate those, they in turn will provide that awareness and educate others. And the quicker that it spreads, the quicker we develop relationships and with better relationships, then things get better. Like there's unity. And so it was a slow process when we first started coming together. The Heart of Treaty 6th Reconciliation Circle consists of right.

Now I think it's 41 different organizations and groups, communities within the region of Lloydminster. And we've been at this for almost six years and we've just started to see more and more action, just trying to educate the communities. when I try to, when I try and share some of the stories, there's certain things that I can share, and there's certain things that I can share. And it's just because of the, it's almost like a, a fine line. and some of it is things that you would share to, that you can share to others, like I could share to others, but with our perspective, with indigenous perspective towards education, it's up to the individual to seek that knowledge. So as a group, it's hard to try.

and educate as many people as you can without overstepping that boundary, overstepping that fine line. It's almost like the word would be at Bastogne, which means you're almost keeping yourself a bad omen. And so I'm not sure if that even made sense. Well, what I'm trying to do is by having these conversations, I don't respond well to how the government's approached it. Like trying to explain to me how bad of a person I am and that, you know, that you did this and all these different things. I have a hard time with that because I just speak for myself. I try and look at what I've done in my life, and I'm like, well, I don't, I try and, you know, educate myself. I try and, you know, am I growing?

I hope to grow until I'm 80, well, like I don't think I'll ever have everything just cased. I learned that an awful lot on this podcast. But the way some of our leaders approach it, and I speak, you know, towards the government mostly, is that, you know, it's the people's fault. And I have a real tough time with that. And so I don't soak up what they're talking about. What I try and do here is I, you know, with you with the mic in front of you, I'm a, I'm a guy like really interested to learn some things I need, you know, that you're trying to spread. And what I assume if people are listening, they're in the same boat. They're like, lay it on me.

Let's let's hear, you know, some things because you're right. If you don't know it, you know, what are you supposed to do? And so picking up books and reading them, I think, is always a great thing, right? Going out and searching different information sources is obviously key. But podcasts have become a way of transferring knowledge to people and large a swaths of people in a long form like this where they can get a feel and start to, you know, dissect some, ideas that are a little uncomfortable, but maybe need to be talked about, if that all makes sense. It does. And so maybe I'll provide... Please do. This one, I usually go into schools. I work with

Lloyd Public School Division as an indigenous consultant. And so the one presentation that I that I share with not only staff, but the students as well. And it's a cultural competency presentation. And I share that indigenous communities are driven by spirituality, and we have mainstream Canadian society, which is driven by capitalism. But it's like two worlds, in one country.

The worlds are totally different in the part. I'm lucky that I'm walking in both worlds. I can walk in both worlds. And there's a number of adaptations that have to be made by indigenous people in order to be accepted or to even just to walk in, In this world. Non-Indigenous world, yeah. And so with those number of adaptations,

actually this came from, we had a presenter that came from France. We were at Lakeland College. He came in and he did a cultural competency presentation. And what he was talking about was he came, and did that presentation because of the number of different, number of students that came from different countries that came to do their studies in Lakeland. And so the admin at the time brought him in to share his presentation.

And so I was sitting there with everyone else, with all the staff, and he was doing this presentation. And so he scaled, he provided a scale with the number of adaptations that these students coming in from different parts of the world, the number of adaptations that they had to make in order for them to be accepted into Canadian society. And so he started giving examples. And every example, like every country, first he said, the country with the least amount of adaptations was, I think, the UK. Or actually it was, yes, the UK, followed by the U.S., and then it kept going.

And there were so many different examples that he gave, anything from time, perception of time to foods, education, perception of education. anything that was a cultural norm. And as he was going through the whole list or the scale and given these examples, the examples that he was given, excuse me, the examples that he was giving, I could relate to. He was talking about time. And he said people in Germany, If they have a set time, you have to be there two minutes before, the meeting will actually

start two minutes before. And then there's people in Japan that their meeting will start right on that time, and then so on. And then he got to South America, South America a half hour after that time. And then, like, I could read it. relate because with the South Americans, because in our culture, things don't begin until the elders say, or it's going to start. And the perception is you know in how in this society, if you're not on time, then you're being disrespectful.

And it's almost the reverse for indigenous time where don't expect others to be on your time. It's almost like a totally different perspective. I'm glad you clarified that for me because I think I've thought that exact thought in my head because you know, just put it in my, put it on this side. We're always taught to be five minutes early. 10 minutes early.

Be respectful of someone else's schedule, whatever. And so that is absolutely what we were taught as kids. I didn't know that. I didn't know that on the flip side. I mean, it makes complete sense when you break it down how different cultures, but no one ever takes a step back and asks the question. That's a very simple example, Clint,

of how two different worlds can be, respectful but come off completely opposite. So a lot of the time, it's deemed that most indigenous or First Nations people are disrespectful because they're always late. They're never on time. But they're following their culture in a way where you can't be. it's almost like if you're setting a time you're being disrespectful for others to others that are coming to you how do you fix a complex problem because this this isn't like this is I just go back to what I said

probably five minutes ago as a younger guy I went let's just fix the problem what are we doing here Everything, you know, I don't know, maybe it's the culture you grow up in. Rush, rush, rush, get things done. Let's figure this problem. Problem solvers, we got really smart and good people around. Let's just figure the problem all. And if you talk to someone from our culture, it would be slow it down, slow it down, think about it. And let it happen.

Relax. Calm down. But it wouldn't be seen that way with the other perspective. But with time, there's also education. So when this presenter started talking about the, gave examples about education, how education is viewed in all the different parts of the world. And it came to a part where there was a point where he had shared that this one country just didn't have access to education.

They didn't have quite the opportunities that other parts in the world have for education. And when I was thought about that it was like first of all the view toward toward education the perspective is that it's up to the individual to seek the knowledge so schooling like it's it's not really necessarily not not many groups go at one time to go seek the knowledge usually it's it's up to the individual because everyone learns at their own pace. And a lot of the knowledge is passed down orally and it's instilled.

So the perspective toward education where in this society where knowledge is knowledge is reference and stored. It's totally different than things that are instilled. So when I give examples about something being instilled, I would share, like when I go into the classroom, I'll share with the students and say, and try to explain in a way that they understand what instilled meant, something instilled in you. So I'll say, I'll get them to count. And we usually go one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten. And I say, will you ever forget out of count ten?

No. And you're right, because it's instilled in you. But someone came to you and said, I'm going to teach you out of count. one, one, two, one, two, three, and so on to ten. Someone had to teach you how to count to ten, and that's not how education or that's not how knowledge was passed down or instilled in indigenous way. It was through storytelling. And I would say, I would give them the example of happy birthday.

Did someone, so who knows how to sing happy birthday and they all raise their hand? Good, good. Do you think you'll ever forget how to sing happy birthday? No. So it's instilled in you, but how did you learn? Did someone come to you? Did someone sit you down and say, I'm going to teach you how to sing happy birthday? Happy? Repeat after me.

Happy, happy, birthday, birthday. No. You heard it at someone's birthday, you heard it at another birthday, then another birthday party, and you heard it over and over until it was instilled in you. It's become a part of you, you'll never forget it. And that's how education was for, well, it still is for many. It wasn't anything that you could read, close the book, and set aside. It was always instilled.

There's still, to the stay, there's still some very intelligent individuals, elders, mostly. And all that knowledge is up there. But the only way we can pass it down is to listen to those stories and repeat them. So that was a different form of education. When the residential schools came, they did do the same thing. They did instill. But what they instilled for indigenous people was they instilled your culture is evil. Your culture is heathenistic, pagan.

They were told that. that they were worshipping the devil. They were being pushed away from that identity. So anything that had to do with their culture, their language, their whole being, they were told it was wrong. And so they started moving away from that. And then when they'd go back to the communities, after those residents, when they go back to the communities for that short amount of time,

first of all the parents, they had no parenting skills because the children were away the whole time. My grandpa used to say, my grandpa said that, one of my grandpas said that it was a eerie time because it was so quiet because all the children were always, were away from the community. And all there were were the adults. And it was like the life was sucked out of the community.

So that view toward that education and to the day, there's still families, there's still people that are against sending their children to school because they're

scared of it. They don't trust. So that was the second. He talked about time, education, foods. When he talked about foods, again, there was something I was reminded of, which was always a pot of stew brewing somewhere. You didn't eat in certain times. There wasn't always the breakfast, lunch, and supper. You ate when you were hungry.

hungry, just a totally different way of life, I guess. And then the other thing he talked about was the mannerisms. Well, I wouldn't say mannerisms, but maybe things that would be proper. The behavior is what it was. The behaviors. And so in this society, You have to be proper. It's a little so-so, proper, maybe semi-proper. When I go back to the reserve and I'm back with my friends, I'm just back to being me where I can be silly, I can be joking around, I can have a lot of fun, laughing, whatever.

If I was to do that here, I'd be seen. as being silly or immature. I can't do that. It's a in the cultural perspective, it's it's more open where people will tell you as they see it. There's no holding back if that makes sense. On the reserve or here? On the reserve. No holding back. No holding back. If, if you make the mat, they'll tell you. If you are not being if you're not being nice or respectful, they'll tell you. Here it's a little more,

I just know that you have to walk a fine line when you're walking in this world. You tell me if I'm ticking you off, Clint? Yeah. Good. No. Probably not, but... No?

I would probably do it, and I'm not that kind of person. That's fair, but at the same time, I'd hope if I'm going about anything wrong, because to me, that's the only way this dummy's going to learn. But there's no wrong question. Like questions, regardless of... But some questions that I've been asked have sounded derogatory to some and they'd be like, woo. I'm like, what?

No, it's okay. He wants to learn? I'm going to answer. And because after, like I've been living in Lloydminster for 20 years, been a part of the Lloydminster scene for 30, at least, anywhere from sports to and then now working here. It's, there's, I know that there's a lot of people that are wanting to learn, but they're scared to ask the questions.

And the way I see it is that you have to give them the benefit of the doubt that they were either taught this or something happened. I usually try and find out what happened to make him think the way they do. And usually, and most times, when I figure what happened and I share, they understand. So what's one question that you want to ask? I want to go back to your grandfather talking about the children all being gone, being eerie. I sit here with young kids and that really bothers me

and I wonder why didn't they but I don't know the I don't even know like is it storm the school storm like I don't know I just in my brain I go hell or high water

they're going to take my kids but I feel like that probably I don't know that that's where my brain goes when I hear that story that that would that I got young kids. That terrifies me. People tried. I've heard early years that people had tried, families or parents had tried to get their children out. And they paid the price, either with incarceration or at that time,

their their livestock slaughtered to rations taken away as well. But that was, rations would have been way before the First Nations people started having farms. Because at one time when the reserves were established, when they, when they started putting the First Nations into reserves. The government had promised these rations if they would stay in the reserve. So there was no more hunting. They couldn't leave the reserve to go hunt.

They had to stay in reserve. If they left, they were incarcerated. And so no one left because they wanted the rations. But over time they started developing these, they started having farms. My great grandpa would talk about he had cattle, horses, and the way he talks about it, too. I can still hear him say it. He had cattle, horses, chickens, pigs, something else. But they had little farms. Everyone had farms on reserve at one point. In fact, there was a time where the First Nations farmers

were doing so much better. They were doing well because they worked together. They helped each other out on the reserve. So this one time where my mom and dad talk about or have told me, shared the story with me where my great-grandpa had told them that there was a farmer, local farmer beside the reserve, came, and he was on a wagon with a horse and a cow pulling the wagon. And he came to see if he could trade his horse or his cow for some hay because they didn't have any hay for his cattle. for his cattle. And so my great grandpa told his son, which was my grandpa, to go load the, first of all to harness a horse to the wagon, so there'd be two horses. They tied up the cow to the back of the wagon, and then they went and filled the hay on the flat

deck and sent him on his way. They helped him up instead of... Taking advantage? Yeah, instead of taking the cow. So at one point, that's when the officials at the time, that's when the officials at the time started taken control of the whatever crops or cattle or whatever that the farmers had. They had full say as what they could slaughter and whatnot or how much they could sell, depending on what the Indian agent would, what kind of deal he would make with the ag department

or who it was that they would deal with. I have a late uncle that shared where his dad, so this was, he'd be my mushroom. And his dad was going to, um, his dad was going to, um, They were going to have a wedding, and the daughter was getting married, so he wanted to supply the people coming to the wedding with a, he wanted to harvest one of the cattle, one of the steers. And so he said, he told the Indian agent,

he went to the Indian agent and said, I would like to slaughter the steer so that I could feed my guests. And the Indian agent said, no. And he had about 50 head and just didn't see why he would say no. And he told him, well, I'm going to slaughter the steer. And so they went home. He went home. He slaughtered the steer.

the wedding. He fed his guests. A week later, the Indian agent and the inspector came. They looked at his cattle and said, and they deemed the cattle as being infected with something. So they had to load him up. They loaded up the cattle and took him away. No reimbursement, no nothing. It's just the power that they had. Like stories like that, just you wouldn't think that they... That people would be capable of such things. And so he never tried farming or ranceling again? I want to say it's...

Have you ever heard the Stanford Prison Experiment? I don't think so. They take a group of students. It says all participants were observed in videotaped by a... experimenters on the second day, the prisoners stage of rebellion, the guards then worked out a system of reward and punishment to manage their prisoners. Essentially, they were all just like, they were just in an experiment, right? They gave certain people the right of being the guard, and then others had to be the prisoner. So just roles. And when it ended up happening was like,

well, people put in power, started to abuse it, and it just got like out of hand. and that's the Stanford prison experiment. You know, I'm doing a really brief synopsis. I'm just trying to browse it here so I don't skip over a thing. So it was designed to examine the effects of the situational variables on participants' reactions and behaviors in a two-week simulation of a prison environment. Stanford University psychology professor Philip Simbardo led the research team who ran the study in the summer of 1971. Participants were recruited from the local community with an ad in the newspaper offering $15 a day to male students who wanted to participate in a psychological study of prison life.

Volunteers were chosen after assessment of psychological stability and then randomly assigned to being prisoners or prison guards. The volunteers selected to be guards were given uniforms specifically to de-individuate them and then instructed to prevent prisoners from escaping. The experiment officially started when prisoners were arrested by real Palo Alto police over the following five days. Psychological abuse of the prisoners by the guards became increasingly brutal. It says they visited the evaluation conditions and this lady Christina Maslack was so upset to see how participants were behaving that she confronted Zimbardo and he ended the experiment. on the sixth day. There's movies about it.

Like it just, it got out of hand. And it was just people, yeah, I mean, I just, when I hear what you're talking about, I go, like, you think people would never do that. It would have sense to know what's right and what's wrong and stop or correct it. But then, you know, like, I watch, you know, the reason I'm so hard on the, on the government these days is I watch what Justin Trudeau is doing. And it doesn't mean, well, I know, I just see the words that come out of his mouth towards a certain portion of the population.

And it's wild to me. But then I sit and listen to what you're talking about. And I can't, that's been, what, a year? Multiply that by a hundred. And multiply some of the living circumstances and everything else by X.5. old as well. Some will argue against that. Some will definitely argue listening to this, but I just go back to the eerieness of no children. Our neighbors came over, new neighbors, and I apologize for our kids because they're loud and rambunctious, and they said, oh no, it's amazing to hear kids playing. And now

listening to your part of the story of how eerie it is, I'm like, That would be absolutely correct. And times when kids should be out playing and having fun and doing rambunctious things and smiling and laughter and everything else that a summer night should have, to have none of that would be eerie. I had to go, well, I didn't have to. I volunteered to go speak to a church group one

a couple weeks or a couple years ago. And the one thing I wanted to share was the, I was hoping that this whole experience with the isolation that we had in that first two-week isolation that we had, that there were a lot of people that came out with mental health issues. And so I shared the isolation where we have communities in northern parts of Canada. They live in total isolation from the rest of the world. And the thing is the youth are moving away from their culture that it was their culture that helped them learn to live in that environment. away from everyone else.

Now they're moving away from their culture. They're starting to see more and more effects from mental health issues to drug abuse to suicides. And the fact that they're moving away from their culture is from just the influences that they have nowadays from the internet to TV, and so living in isolation for all their lives, the amount of mental health issues that they have, you think there'd be a bit more understanding

when you think about the two weeks that we, had we had to isolate and the amount of time that they've been in isolation. I would say when people are listening to this, because as I listen to it, I think I begin to understand. One of the things about a northern community, you can certainly please do correct me if I'm completely a, is being isolated. They would still have a sense of community because it wouldn't be told not to congregate together, one, two, being taught tradition in your history of being connected to the earth, the animals, etc.

It gives, and I have no, I could be wrong on this, but I feel like it would give meaning to life. And one of the things right now that I'm seeing, even in myself, is more and more people starting to, wonder what is the meaning of life is there a God or is it the universe or is it you know which way and I think the hustle and bustle of this world distracts you from that and in the distraction you lose chunks of someone what it really you know I read the old stories a dad has this book the Fort Pitt Trail

It's all the families that came over. And one of the things that just flabbergast me, every time I read it, a different story is they literally have nothing, Clint, like nothing. They've come across the world to live in minus 40 in a tent and build a mud hut and just, but they always say we were happy. We had community.

People looked out for us. And you would come to, you know, it would be a slower pace of life, for sure, but it would be hard work. But I just, I'm kind of going on a tangent here, but like when I hear the isolation of up north communities, you'd still have your community, you still learn the tradition of how we're all connected,

and that would really give a sense of place in the world, wouldn't it? It would, but again, it's the youth that are moving away from it. So is the youth are, are, starting to find it difficult. Their mental health is suffering. Is that because of the screens and stuff? Like is that what's pulling them away? Like the phone and the...

Well, some of it is. It's from... And then... So, there's actually alcohol and drugs that get to those communities. And when it does, the bad things happen. So when someone commits that bad thing, they go away for a while.

and then after a while they come back and sometimes with more stuff. And then instead of going back to their culture, they're there, but influencing in a different way. I think it was in Black Bear's book. I was reading his life story. And it talked about, I think it was whiskey. And the whiskey salesman and people would give up their horse for a bottle of whiskey. and things like that.

Did First Nations cultures not have alcohol? Like, why, or is it... Not alcohol, no. In the southern parts, like in the U.S., there was, I think it was peyote, but not necessarily, no, nothing like alcohol. And actually the term firewater, actually came from when the whiskey traders would trade for the furs and to make sure that they weren't getting jipped or whatever.

They would have some of the drink and then spit it into the fire to see whether or not it would light. And that's where the fire water actually originated for. to see if it would catch on fire. So alcohol, there was no, although it was learned. In the, I think it was the 30s, there was some, in the 30s where some men learned how to make a, brew but I haven't really heard prior before that but there was a brew each culture has it's like trying to think of the word I'm looking for here but like it's sociable it's it's um you know like

being a hockey guy in the dressing room after a game you have a couple beers and it's kind of like a very social thing to do um I guess I just you know that's the world I grew up that that is the culture right you can have you sit around and have a couple of beer or your choice I guess especially as you get older um as young kids I certainly don't think that's happening and nobody wants that to happen but uh in first nation's culture then what was the gathering was there uh if it wasn't alcohol was there uh there was a gathering there was always a gathering so there would be um any of the the ceremonies. There's so many different ceremonies. And there would be a gathering of sorts there. There'd be games to be played. So communities would come together just to play these

games. There's a game called hand games. To the south they play a game called Moxon Games. But they would play these games after harvesting their their furs and whatnot. And then come join each other as a community. And communities will play for, like, just to have fun gambling and whatnot. And then there are the powwows. So a powwow, in fact, we have one here in a couple of weeks in Oni Lake on the 15th, 16th, And we have people from all over North America that come, sometimes even from Europe.

And they come and celebrate. It is a time to come together, a time to visit, time to have fun. Sometimes it's some families come to in remembrance of a loved one or or to honor one of their family members but that's a time where everyone comes together and and it's more to socialize to celebrate And so any event or any ceremony, you'll see a gathering. We just had one about a month ago where my family hosted a ceremony. And so we went out and we helped.

We work as a family to build the structure itself. provide the foods for the feast, the giveaway that you give to your guests that come. But there's prayers, there's singing, there's dancing, and there's visiting, and a lot of laughing. But there are times where you have to... make sure that you're being respectful to everyone and listening to certain people that are speaking, especially the elders. So that's a time of socializing too. And to this day now with when living in this society, there is a lot of hockey on reserves.

There's a lot of golf. There's a lot of chuck wagon, horsemanship. In fact, when we talk about horsemanship and chuck wagons, in the late 1800s, early 1900s, there was a band, there was a ban, a band of ceremony. I'm not sure if Albert shared that with you. So the government banned the coming together. You couldn't gather on the reserve. You couldn't gather for ceremonies.

You couldn't practice your sweat lodge, your chicken dance, your horse dance, your ghost dance, your sun dance, all those, they were banned. And so the only time they would allow for the community to come together was either a sports day. And to this day, July 1st was a day of gathering for Onion Lake because of the very first time that they were allowed to gather was to have a sports day. And that was in, I believe it was in 1897. And then so the only time that they were allowed to come together was either the sports day or the rodeo or chuck wagons. And to this day, there's still families that practice that,

that's why they have quite a few First Nations, Métis, people that are still in and around rodeo and chuck wagon. And the band was lifted in 1914. Actually, no, it was lifted a little later, but it was a Calgary Stampede that actually wanted to lift it, that helped with that idea. Because the Stampede at that time was a World's Fair in 1914. and they wanted the First Nation stanchors to come and come and dance there but it was against the law And when did that law start in late 1800s so 1896 or something like that

So essentially 20 some odd years of no gatherings Yeah unless it was like like like I said the sports day nothing cultural just a sports day or a rodeo

or what have you right how does how do you what they did they did they did

have those ceremonies but they had them in in secret they did host but they made sure that they were hit away

Yeah, somewhere way in the back that no one could hear or see. So they kept it alive that way. They still happen to this day. You know, you kind of scratch an itch, a proverbial itch, I mean, you know, like, and you just don't realize how far down, like, how deep of an issue this is, you know? I'm frustrated with the government for the last two years. I'm pretty vocal about it on here. I talk about it an awful lot.

I talk about a lot of different people, a lot of people that are hurting and frustration and all these different things. And so this one, I don't know if I was naturally avoiding it or if I just, you know, waiting and due course, you talk about waiting and then opportunity presents and things like that. I just go back to what I said probably half an hour ago.

It's like, it's fine the answer. Let's get it fixed and let's move on and, you know, And now I go, what are your thoughts? You think in time this can be mended? In time. In time, it well get better. And those were, that was something that was said by a keynote speaker that we brought in. In 2019, the Heart of Treaty 6th, reconciliation circle,

we had a reconciliation gala. And Senator Murray Sinclair came in and came and spoke to the attendees. And that was the very first gala that we hosted, very first event that we ever did. And we just wanted to get it out there that we were around and wanted to do and wanted to

that we were moving toward reconciliation efforts and anyone that wanted to join was free to do so and anyway Mary Sinclair Senator

Mary Sinclair he was on the Senate Canadian Senate by any chance do you know have you heard of Mary Sinclair I can't say I have. So Senator Sinclair wrote the 400-page report for the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. He headed the commission right up until 2017, and he came up with 94 calls to action.

And within those 94 calls to action, He had actions that focused, that were focused toward education, business, government. Anywhere from education for newcomers to economics or finances, finance departments, and anyway he was the one that shared that it took seven generations to get to this point to where we're at now. And he was hoping that it wouldn't take, it'll take seven generations to get back to where to make things right. although he did say and he's hoping that it doesn't take seven generations but he was hopeful

and I am too although there's still I get frustrated at times because at times at times I I don't I feel that I I'm not

expressing I'm sorry I got this tickle in my throat right now. There's times where he would, or I would, sorry, I need to cough. Yeah, give her. I tell you what I'll do. I'll leave in. There, the mic went down so it only hears me talking. You're all good. I must be talking too much. I think you're doing great. I'm not sure if I am. But I do get frustrated with, with this work sometimes, but lately it's been in the past few months with all the events and all the events that are around the city, and not only this city, but the region. It's kind of given,

it's kind of revamped hope where things are slowly starting to get a little better. And what are, what are you specifically talking about what events so we hosted a missing and murder indigenous and women's and girls walk in conjunction with the the lady that was walking across Canada yeah Krista Krista oh my goodness I don't have the name at the top of my head but she came in and we supported her walk. And then after that, we did a few more things. Christa Fox. Crystal Fox, right.

And then after that, we did do, we did host one of the very first powwows. This was an inter-school powwow, which meant it was for students from across the region. and we invited schools from, again, across the region. Where was I? Oh, the inter-school pow-wow. Yeah, Krista Fox coming through doing an inter-school pow-wow. Well, Krista Fox did her walk, and we supported her walk, and then we did the inter-school pow-wau, which was the first one ever held in Lloyd Minster.

and that was attended by schools right across the region. So we had schools that were non-Indigenous to indigenous schools. And it was a time for fun. It was entertainment and a lot of education. And we just so happened to have a really great crew there that kind of ran the show and made sure that everyone was involved and made sure that everyone understood the whole process. so everything with the background with the dancing, the different styles of dance to the different types of songs that were sung. And actually getting students from either Marwain Marshall or Lashburn or even here in Lloydminster to come join and try dancing some of the dances, which was kind of fun.

to watch. And it was a great day for learning. And everyone came together. And the belief is when the drum is struck, that's what the drum does is it brings people together. It'll bring people together to unite in harmony. But we did have a really good MC. Grant Woodstone from Money Lake was the MC.

We had two directors, arena directors. Duane Chokin was my cousin in Wind Dancer, Waskiewicz, who is also one of our mentors with our LPSD drum group. And he's really connected. with the students there. And so that whole time with the inter-school pow-wow, it was a great day. Everyone came to learn.

And then after that, we did have a flag raising as well. We had the Treaty 6th Métis flag raising. And there were other activities such as the ladies had hosted a red dress ribbon skirt making session, both here in Lloyd and in Onion Lake, which was attended by many. On September 30th, last this past fall, we did kind of send out a call out as well, a call to action of sorts, where we asked everyone to, everyone in the community to, we asked for a moment of silence at 215. And that was in significance or in connection to the 215.

215 graves at the former Kempelagos Residential School. So events like that, and they're well attended. And we've been hosting meetings, and those have been well attended. If you're the common person wants to learn, maybe become involved, how do they do that in this area? What's something that if somebody's listening to us, they go, man, can I come to a power? Can I fall along with different things?

And I don't know, just some ideas. Because when you talk about the beat of the drum, bringing people together, I think all of society can use that right now. and I hear that and I go music Darrell Sutter you gotta love Daryl Sutter when he's

talking about what brings people together he talks about church everybody's got their own definition of what church is but church music and sports that's what he said so when you talk about

the beat of the drum bringing people together I go I think society could use that if there's somebody listening to us and you know I love my community and they're sitting in this community and they're going all right clint where can i come to can i come to the powwow and onion lake can i uh be a part of i don't know

i'm just spitballing for you so the powwow was open to anyone absolutely anyone there's no there's no um entry or entry fee there's no no um the only thing that's no um the only thing thing is there's no alcohol or drugs at the gate. They'll check and they'll check for that. But other than that, it's free for anyone to come join. And it's almost like a big fair. But it's a time where, like I said, people just come watch, enjoy. the food. There's a multiple number of different food vendors sitting right around the the Powell Arbor and you can stay until it's done. It's it starts most days at well, all three days the first grant entry starts at one in the afternoon.

and they'll dance right up until sometimes they'll go till three in the morning. And so until the next day. And then they'll start again at one and go till whenever they're done that evening or that night. And then keep going again until because there's five, actually there's three rounds to dance in competition. And so There's three rounds of dance competition With seven different

Different dance categories At four different Age groups What days does this go on? When is the power? July 15, 16, 17. In Onion Lake? Yes.

Yeah, and it's straight north from, it's on Highway 17. You stay on Highway 17 all the way right till you get there. And so it's easy to find. There's a lot of parking space. You can camp if you want, but there's plenty of room. I'm not sure if you've ever been to the Heritage Park up there where that's where they have the chuck wagons as well in that area.

So if you've ever been to the Heritage Park for Chuck wagons, it's the same area for the power grounds. Well, I appreciate you coming in doing this. I could hold you here all night. I've been, you know, soaking this up, so to speak. But I do appreciate you coming in and giving me some of your time being so open with some of my questions and certainly your story. But yeah, just appreciate you coming in.

I should finish, you know, I should do, well, memories got me. We always do the Final Frive, brought to you by Crude Master Transport, and it's a question. If you're going to stand behind a cause that you think is right, then stand behind it, absolutely. What's one thing Clint stands behind? Respect. That's what I try and then to do.

with so many kids that I speak with, so many people that I know. And basically what it is is my explanation for respect, where it is. If you treat everyone in everything the right way, good things happen. When you treat everyone in everything the right way all the time, great things happen. Can you say that one more time for me? when you treat everyone the right way good things happen when you treat everyone and everything the right way all the time great things happen appreciate you doing this well thanks for having me i feel that there's there's a lot more to share however it's it just didn't come out the way i was hoping it

to come out sometimes. But I go back to what you said right at the very start. You know, sometimes making fun of myself a little bit, and I'm like, rah, right, let's go, let's go, you know. And you're like, calm down. It'll come to you. And I'll just, you know, and I think Albert Jimmy was a good starting place. This has been the next conversation.

And I don't plan on this being the end. So that means, you know, I got time. I guess is what I'm getting at. And I don't want to rush anything. And I certainly want to make sure that as we go along, we, you know, it continues to grow, so to speak, I think. And I think every listener who's tuned in will agree that there's been a lot in this already just for myself and probably them as well to chew on and think about.

And you can't move on to the next stage until. you do that right so I think you know we're closing in on two hours or close to it wow this room has that effect claim but I appreciate you coming in and doing this truthfully it's always great to learn new things and I find there's a lot of meaning hidden in in the tough conversations and not that this was like a you know a tough conversation but there's just parts of this that I literally had no idea about, right? Or had it really given the time to think about.

And to me, there's a lot of meaning in that. So I appreciate you coming in and giving us what you could today. And we'll see where it goes in the future. For sure. Well, thanks for having me. It was to tell you truth. I didn't know what to expect. Lots of people come in and say that.

And they all do the same thing when I say, geez, we're closing on two hours. Holy moly. What are we been doing in here? I'm in the same boat. Well, thanks again. Well, thank you.