Shaun Newman Podcast - #328 - Dan Behiels

Episode Date: October 14, 2022

Former detective with the Edmonton Police Service discusses what led him to becoming a whistle blower and the aftermath that has followed.  Emergencies Act Inquiry https://publicorderemergencycommission.ca/ November 5th SNP Presents: QDM & 2's.   Get your tickets here: https://snp.ticketleap.com/snp-presents-qdm--222-minutes Let me know what you think Text me 587-217-8500 Links to Dan's story: Edmonton Journal  CBC had concluded their investigation

This is Brian Gitt. My name is Patrick Moore. This is Dr. William Macchus. This is Bruce Party. This is Tom Longo. This is Steve Barber, and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome on the podcast, folks. Happy Friday.

Hope everybody's week is cruising along. Before we get started today, I want to remind people that the inquiry into the Emergency Act started Thursday morning, and it's going to be going on here for quite some time. It will be public hearings. We'll begin on Thursday, October 13th. run until Friday, November 25th. The hearings will take place every weekday except on Rem, Rem Rem, Remmer, and's Day. The hearings will begin at 9.30 a.m. Eastern time each day may run until 6 p.m. or later, if required, and if you're wanting to pay attention and follow along,

public order, emergency commission.ca, I'm going to put the link in the show notes. I think it'd be very, very prevalent that we all fall along and see what comes of this. The list, the of people they got that are going to be, you know, testifying is going to be something to pay attention to and just see what comes of it. Once again, I'll put the link so you don't have to, you know, sort of in traffic or anything in the show notes. That way, if you're wanting to follow along, you can. They got on the website, they have a place where if you miss it from the day, you can go back

and there's the recorded live stream from the day so you can catch up. today's looks like it's close to four hours. So you're definitely going to need some time. This isn't going to be, you know, sit and watch a two-minute video. I hope to, in the future, bring a few different people on that are surrounding it to kind of give some insight and talk, you know, about what the heck is going on over in Ottawa currently. But either way, check the show notes. If you're wanting to pay attention and keep up to date, there's a way to do it.

Just go to the website and it looks like they're going to live stream every single day. And it looks like if you miss the live stream, you can go back. and watch the pre-recorded or the, you know, the live stream recording. Geez, Louise, well, that was a mostful. Anyways, we've got a good one on tap for you today. I've been waiting to put this one out for about a week, week and a half now. And so before we get there, though, let's get to our episode sponsors. You heard the man, Stephen Barber, introduce today's podcast.

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He was suspended in 2021 when he released sensitive materials to the CBC, talking about Dan Beheels, So buckle up. Here we go. This is Dan B. Hills, and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. I'm going about to butcher Dan's last name because I think it's Be Hills. But Dan B. Hills, the Hills, the hills, oh my God.

You get the point. Thanks for hopping out. Hey, happy to be here. You know, I say this all the time, but you'd think some of the easiest last names would be the easiest pronounce, and then I just like jumble it and roll over it anyways. I'm glad you made the drive up. Uh, this has been a bit of a process to get us to in the same place, you know, months upon months, um, some different factors in there, but finally here we are.

Yeah. I mean, like, even just texting with you, I've, well, thought a lot about whether or not I'd be doing a podcast or an interview or anything else like that too. So it's, uh, freeing, I think is the right way to put it to get on, to get on and talk about it, you mean? Well, yeah, I mean, part of it's the decision. You know, whether or not to have a discussion at all and whether or not I have anything useful to say. Again, you know, I'm happy to talk to anyone to listen.

So. Well, the thing is, is I don't think many people know your story. I mean, certainly if people, no, I don't know. No, I honestly, I've brought your name up lots. And in my world, at least, everyone kind of goes, huh? And so to me, for you to hop on here, you're at least exposing yourself to, a different audience and an audience that's pretty engaged in what's going on on a lot of different levels and seeing some things and seeing, you know, how certain stories get zero airtime and

things like that. So let's do this, Dan. Let's start with who you are. So the audience member can get a feel for who they're listening to because I assume like me, a lot of you, a lot of us don't know your story. Sure. Well, I don't know how much is my story and how much is who I am, I guess, but, um, so my name is Dan Bihills. I was a detective with the event police service between 2009 and 2021. In 21 there, I was suspended with pay first for releasing information to the CBC regarding some criminal activity in Edmonton and some, uh, what I think is best described in the CBC article as, uh, questionable relationships there. Uh, when I released the

information, it, it was already several years of working on things related. that story and the CBC journalist that did the work Janice Johnston there. She's the crime beat journalist for Edmonton. She covers everything. It's always police and justice and what's happening for people's sentences and that sort of thing. So after I handed over the information there, it kind of went back and forth, but essentially my employer disinvited me from continuing my service in October of 21 I was suspended without pay and that was again for the releasing that information to the CBC so well I want to back you up a bit we certainly get into everything

this happened since but I think for a lot of people they're going okay so like what was going on in Emmington who are you investigating and I don't know how much you can divulge or maybe you can divulge it all I just go certainly from reading the CBC and doing some some different things and what you've released, you stumble upon the name Abdullah Shah. I hope I'm saying that name, right? Yep.

And I feel like, you know, I live under Iraq because I go, and I can hear a lot of people going, who? Yeah. And so, to me, if it's possible, can you frame the story so people understand how you get to, I need to leak documents to the CBC? because I feel like as a police officer, that could not have been an easy decision

and you knew the ramifications of probably doing such a thing. Right, yeah. Well, I mean, it's maybe that question's a little bit existential, I guess, but I was working on a series of investigations over a few years, whether it was related to conspiracy to commit aggravated assault. There was a guy in this organization that had fallen out

and they ended up beat him up a couple times. And out of the CBC articles there, that's Clark McCabeer. So worked on that investigation. Worked on other investigations trying to understand more about what was happening around problem properties in Edmonton. So in my general duties, even when I started in 2009, it was responding to 911 calls and general response of, break and enter investigations and the random stabbing or shooting or whatever that happened downtown. I ended up going to the same properties over and over and over again. And it was oftentimes the same individuals that were involved in these things. And that's kind of where crime patterns are found.

Some of it's anecdotal. Some of it's, you know, it has to be really studied and analyzed. But when I was on the street, I mean, I was going to the same places, always dealing with the same people all the time. And it was rooted in the same problems, drugs and violence. That's what it came down to. So even right at the beginning of my career from 2009 forward, I had come to realize that something wasn't right, that I knew that there's a consistent group involved in criminality in Edmonton. And whether even without proactively doing it, going to down one call responses again, someone's calling for help. I'd go to those same places.

And it was confusing to me why nothing. got done about it. And that was something that I think a lot of people saw community members and other police officers and those that are involved in drug treatment programs and that sort of thing. It was always this question. Why isn't this being fixed? I mean, it seems to be a pretty consistent problem. Everyone sees that it's an issue. So are we talking fixed as in arrest somebody? Are we seeing it or or or stop the drug flow into these buildings or or what do you mean by how? How could done something about it. Well, it's most it's most visceral to say, yeah, there, why isn't there being, why isn't there arrests related to these properties

and the individuals that are running them that became the, there's a lot of ways to deal with crime, but that became the confusing question. I mean, charges were late in 2016 and 2018. It, it came through several times where charges were laid and then they ended up being dropped and the history with, uh, Abdullah Shaw specifically was he'd already done a Fed stint. He'd been in for mortgage fraud and a series of other offenses and he got out in 2009 of jail when he was done his done his bit there. So when he came back to the neighborhood and community members are still seeing him, the victims of crime are still seeing the link as much as police are, it was it was

confusing why it wasn't being dealt with. Um, so that that's kind of where I would say it started. for me. That's where I became aware of it. But starting earlier again, this is all stuff that the CBC is covered. Um, I started an investigation, uh, back in 2017, which eventually got halted by my superior officers there. And it was something that the manner in which it ended just added to my confusion. I didn't understand why. Um, seeing the forest for the trees and something like that is really difficult. And I know that it's been described as like the worst kept secret in downtown division that no one can work on Abdullah Shah, not allowed to. And whether or not that actually relates to an overt manner of corruption, I still don't know.

And that's something I want to be clear with. And I was clear with CBC too. What I did see was that guidance that again can investigate Dula Shah, not by permitted. And when investigations did go through, certain organizational events occurred that made it impossible to prosecute. And that was consistent. It happened every time. So that's the nature of what I started with. When you say organizational things like, police. Yeah, police like bungling things up, you mean, so that you can't follow through with said commission like chain of evidence or something or am i just re am i hearing that right is that type of what you're saying i'm thinking you're you're talking to a layman here who's looking at this is

you know i don't know not true detective but you kind of get the idea right um you were supposed to go through the the chain of a chain of custody with evidence and you did this and and so it's thrown out and that happened multiple times or my is my brain in the wrong direction so there's some things i can say and something as I can. Sure, absolutely. But I can tell you, like an investigation isn't, isn't necessarily easy when it's on a scope like this. You have the difference between regular impulse-related crime, I mean, a lot of people, a lot of people have done an impulse-related crime in their life. Like, I shoplifted when I was a teenager. It happens. Sometimes there's other factors in your life that drive you to doing crime.

And that's from a criminological perspective that's called strain theory. the idea is that you have addictions or lack of familial support or some sort of disability or something that's driving you towards doing crimes as a matter of addressing those strains in your life. I'm glossing over, but that's generally it. Criminal organization is different because individuals that are involved in a criminal organization are encouraged and managed in a way where they would commit crimes they wouldn't otherwise do because more than one individual needs to profit from that crime. So it's like it's like it's like you know, when you buy something at a dealership and you realize, yeah, there's a middle man going in and then salesman needs his bit and everything like that.

That's how criminal organization exacerbates crime as a whole because society will always have crime, some level of it. But the the organized function where you're trying to perpetuate more crime is an entirely different problem. So it's not easy. When there is a lot of fingers in the pie and you need. a lot of police officers and lawyers involved and civilian sports staff and the political will to deal with something. There's a lot of ways to interfere with that because all those moving parts have to move correctly.

So anytime you went down the road of trying to get this guy or investigating him, one of those parts didn't align properly, bungling it up. I would say, yeah, that is the case. And it wasn't just me, to be clear, it's anyone who made the other. attempt. I mean, the 2016 charges, and this is all public information again, the 2016 charges that Doolishaw was facing, wasn't my investigation. I wasn't even involved in that file. And it was pretty straightforward, really, when you look at it. But the factors that went into it made it impossible to prosecute. So the charges were dropped. Try to not dance around your question too much,

but that's kind of the idea. And I'm not trying to put you, I have to be clear. I'm doing this. I was, you know, I just, I go, I don't know what you can and cannot say, so you can, you just do you. I'm just going to keep asking questions because I want to make sure that I understand. Sure. So if I'm struggling with it, audience is probably struggling with it. And I'm just trying to make sure that you dance all you need to dance to make sure you don't put yourself in a tough situation. I just want to make sure I'm getting to the point of how you eventually get to where you are. That's all.

To me, I look at it and I go, he's obviously a guy that's under, everybody knows. is on the radar, but for some unforeseen force, nobody can seem to do anything about it. That is as simple as I can probably make it. That is the case. Yeah. And maybe I should scope this out a little bit. I don't know that, again, Abdullah Shah, he goes by Carbon Purvez. I've always called him Carmen.

He always introduces himself as that. I don't know that he's even really the problem. There's always going to be individuals that try and take advantage. of a situation, not trying to do something that benefits themselves. So what is it about the system that permits certain problems getting out of control? I've looked at it from a lot of different angles and obviously spent a lot of time now that I've been sitting at home thinking about it.

The best way that I think I can describe it is that complacency does a lot more harm than overt nefarious activity. Look, a guy isn't going to go out and get himself into trouble unnecessarily. He's not going to look for unnecessary risks. And what's been the focus of this and I think was maybe missed in the CBC articles is that there's something about the system in Edmonton that has been deeply wrong for some time. and a symptom of that problem. Is Abdulah?

Is Abdulah? Yeah. So if I look at it from, and I've talked to a criminologist, I've talked to historians about it, guys that were around in the early 90s and late 80s when I think a lot of this problem started. But the real issue right now, I think is the fact that we have missing components of support for police officers that want to come forward and report, um, well, report wrongdoing. Um, like people talk about whistleblower protections in Alberta, for example, they're non-existent for municipal police officers.

So I'm certain I wasn't the only one that saw issues. I know that. No, guaranteed. Right. But, and for, for years I saw issues and still said nothing. That's me, not even pointing the finger to anybody else. It's a reality. So.

Why is that? Well, right now in Alberta, and I don't want to go too far down a garden path here, but the Whistleblower Protection Act, the Public Interest Disclosure Act is what's called, specifically exempts municipal employees. So the protections that the legislation has, and there are few, it's not very effective, but the protections include, you know, you can't have any job action against someone who brings forward wrongdoing within the organization. You can't initiate job changes for anyone who brings forward.

Like you can't move them off to a different unit or something to punish them quietly. These sorts of protections that are there are non-existent from municipal police officers. So anyone who wants to come forward has two avenues. One, internal. They can entirely put it up through the chain of command as they're obligated to do. Or they can go to the media. And that environment is not very positive. Every whistleblower that's ever come forward, just even looking at Edmonton, there's a whistleblowers that come forward, 96, 98, 2002, again, 2007,

whistleblowers lose their job and pay for it. And whether or not the system improves, I think each individual that comes forward is an opportunity for improvement. It doesn't mean it necessarily gets fixed overnight, and I know that. But everyone who does report issues absolutely pays for it. And that's not unique. It's not just the event of police service. This is Alberta as a whole. Because.

That might be bigger than that. Well. Honestly. This isn't quite the same and you'll laugh at me. But I took paternity leave when my first son was born, right? And for a man to take time off when their child is born is not a very common thing to do. Yeah. And yet, it's written in the company code of whatever.

Like it's right there. You can do this. So I did it. Exercise my right for two months. And when I came back, it was uncomfortable. And I don't mean that to put it on anyone and not one person said you're an idiot or whatever, but you understood coming from the industry I was in that I made their lives difficult by taking what they perceived as two months of holidays, right?

And some of them, you know, would have had kids well before that was ever a thing. some of them didn't have the opportunity because maybe they're supposed didn't want to do that or maybe whatever, it doesn't matter. And so it's a very simple way

to point out that all organizations now offer paternity leave or majority of them does not mean that you get to do it and not come back to, you know, the social environment that is sitting there.

You're making life uncomfortable for me and I don't like that. It's not identical, but anyways, I just mean it's a societal problem when it comes to speaking out about things going on within a team or, you know, you're making their lives difficult because even if there is a problem, lots of the time that we just ignore it, you know, you know, but that's a problem in itself.

Anyways, I digress. Yeah, I mean, like I say, it's not like a bunch of guys get together, whether we're talking about police corruption or anything else. It's not a bunch of guys that, you know, go through the system and try and get their way into a position where they can steal money and drugs and stuff. It's not, that's not reality. Um, I had 52 people in my training class and they're all really good people. And over time, some of them get weeded out based on different decisions they make.

So if I look at it from a percentage point of view, it's, it's everyone that I saw joining police service in a municipal area and Edmonton's not the biggest city. It's kind of backwoods really if you look at it, but it's a beautiful town. I like it. And. everyone who goes in thinks, yeah, I want to do meaningful work and help my community. So how is it that some come out? We're not doing behavior that is, uh, what can be described as corrupt, right?

It's not, it's not like boiling a frog or whatever other analogy you want to look at. It's, um, it's not systemic in my view. I think there's certain behaviors that absolutely, um, create an environment. where police corruption can occur. Like if I just as an example, if I, if I join the hockey team, right, new guy is pouring drinks or he's got to carry the, you know, carry the bags, you know, bring the pucks, right? Like he's got to, he has to be the FNG for a while, right? And can I swear on this? Yeah, absolutely.

Although I like FNG. That's pretty good. I've never heard it called that before. Well, I think that's how it gets censored in a professional environment. But everybody's going to do that. But in a police environment, here's one of the realities. I mean, that new guy goes for beers every day with his squad after work. And that's a good thing, that camaraderie, the esprit of core, right?

The thing that brings us all together and so we can do kind of a hard job together. That's the good side of the coin. And maybe some days are worse than others. and maybe one of the guys on the squad drinks too much. And the new guy is pouring drinks. He knows that he's had too much. And that senior guy in the squad gets in his car, drives home anyway. He knows that the new guy will look at him to a crime and do fucking nothing about it.

It's a small thing. It doesn't happen overnight. But that would be one thing that has really good behavior, everyone getting together and maintaining that. Yeah, and how it can be almost exploited. And maybe even not on purpose. You know, like it's not like that senior guy is waiting for him to, to do it and then looks him in the eyes as he gets in his car. It's not what it is.

It's just we're all some of our own experiences. And all of us are flawed and all of us, whether it's out of weakness or greed or, I'm not I'm really sure. I just know that. Well, that's a deep question. Yeah. Right? When you go where all of some of our experiences, it's like, well, that's a really beautiful

way to put it. And at the same time, it's like, man, that's kind of why we're at where we're at where we're at here in society right now. I guess it's a really other, you were listening to me with Pekford, right? And like, he's framing a really complex issue of how you get society back to, you know, where government does what the people want or, you know, and that isn't, that didn't happen overnight. Like, none of this happened overnight.

It all took year upon year, upon year, upon year. So that means in return, the opposite could probably happen, and I'm not saying it's got to take the same amount of time to go good. But chances are it's not going to be like you flick a lights which rod and everything's good again, right? Like, you're laughing at me, but I mean, that's honestly the truth. We're not going to just flick a light in a way we go. even for a police case, right? It takes time to build evidence, then court dates and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, right?

It isn't, there's very few things in life that happen overnight. Have you heard of the radical change theory, though, right now? No. This is something, so I stumble onto this when I'm going down my YouTube rabbit holes, and I find a couple of books on it. I like how you say rabbit holes now, but earlier it was the garden path. I was like, oh, the garden path. I never heard that one before.

Well, it's where you're me and you're enjoying yourself. It's different, right? You go down a rabbit hole. Obviously, you're hunting. You're doing something, but did you find the garden trail down the rabbit hole though? I'm sure there's one. I don't know. Yeah, you know, not a different mental thing, but the way I look at it is this radical change theory is like the idea started with, you know, a bunch of different, uh, writers in the early, early 1900s. And I mean, if you look at, uh, well, Isaac Asimov is probably the best. description of it, he wrote a bunch of essays in a book on it where he charted out all of the inventions across the history of mankind. And it really is. It's a beautiful thing. It's scary. But the idea is that there's an exponential growth pattern to the technology that we

create for ourselves. And it's, I mean, it's true. Again, like you can look at Asmov's essays. It's the evidence is there. Why is it that we have an exponential growth pattern in that now, especially with all the technology we have and it hasn't slowed down. So technology is exponentially growing. Information, again, like whether you look at the Chinese studies on it, Peking University is the only one looking at this. It's weird, but they can chart out all of the data created by the human race over time. And whether it's by books.

Again, there's a certain bite value you can apply to different pages of books and that sort of thing. But exponential growth pattern again, like above the base two. I don't know if you're a math guy, but the, the growth pattern is substantial and it doesn't slow down. That same thing, the same curve upwards can be charted with the Gutenberg Press, radio, internet, and where we are today. Like it, it doesn't seem to be slowing down the more we cooperate with each other, which is a good thing because we keep cooperating. But at the same time, even if you go through historical books and archaeological record or anything else you're looking for, the number of governmental coups, so internal strife, not two countries warring with each other, but people getting sick of their government, being, having a sense of injustice with their

neighbors is going up exponentially as well. So when you say that, it kind of throws me off because for years I've, I've experienced what it is to be the arm of the government. individual let us go out there and arrest someone take away their freedom for whatever infraction they've they've been party to so I've spent a lot of time thinking about it I guess that's why I go down that rabbit hole garden path the radical change theory is this is the first thing that pops up on the internet so theory contends that an increasing percentage of contemporary literature for youth reflects characteristics the digital age principles and that these radical change

books may appeal to youth growing up in the digital age. Oh, yeah, I think that's a little different. So that one is the development of how someone can relate to the literature they're consuming. This one, like again, Asmovs was the growth of technology and rise of man, I think, is the title of it. It was his first essay on it. And then there was, oh, try to think his name.

So is he trying to argue that we're getting smarter? No, so Asimov's idea behind this and again, this is wonderful. I'd invite anyone to read it. But the idea is that we're not, we're not born with the ability to nap flint into sharp tools. We get a shortcut because someone else has the technology, the information to share with us. So we're not necessarily getting smarter. We're sharing better. And when the printing press came around, we could share more easily.

We can retain that knowledge over time when we could start communicating. by radio again it was so much easier to talk to people in short periods of time and share that information so and and I would contest that it was easier to control people over time or the controlling method changed because you think about it radio what a beautiful idea or the printing press but then the powers of B would race and I don't know how race could mean decades but we'd slowly control the message so that everybody gets the same message now. But the outcome isn't the same.

People still, like printing press comes around, five years later, we have the Reformation. We're pinning up notices on the church door. It doesn't result in control. We have far less control from a governmental perspective. We all look at our neighbors and we want to cooperate for different reasons.

Is that what you feel, though, about the last two years? That's the thing. Attempts to control or not the success in control? Fair enough, but for two years It was pretty much control Like I mean tons of people were screaming their heads off But it took literally thousands of trucks going to Ottawa To sit outside Parliament and be like

Piss off already And even then, you know Look at what our government did And so in a sense I completely understand Because if you're a kid today You know, you get to wake up And you can literally watch on YouTube Let's just use YouTube

any PhD you want under the sun, pretty much. The ability to learn is endless because it's all just sitting there for you if you go use it. And if you take that from 100 years ago, obviously the intellectual knowledge is not there, right? Like, I mean, it's different. And yet, somehow, the powers of B

found a way, even with all that, to just like... Okay. do what they did. I'm not an optimist. I'm not going to, this is going to be, uh, but it, it, whether you agree with the truck convoy or not, whether you agree with Black Lives Matter or not, I don't think it, I think that's a, a group of people that have a sense of injustice, whether they're right or wrong, it doesn't matter. They have a sense of injustice. I would say that their perspective certainly matters and that our systems for how we agree and that how we

manage disagreement, um, often don't enjoy those things. Don't enjoy hearing it. I think is, is the case. Yes. But here's the optimistic part. Thousands of trucks went to Ottawa and however much disruption they caused or however many roads they blocked. Doesn't matter. Nobody died. That is probably a miracle because there's a lot of anger behind it, understandably. There was a lot of fear from the political individuals that are, that are there. I think it was genuine fear. I don't, whether or not they really were wrestling with why they think the things they

do, I don't know, but they, I think they were genuinely afraid, probably not of the truckers, but of other things too. And nobody died. That is amazing. And maybe that's me being that optimist. Like I look at things like that. the world and that's something I want to be able to to conserve. I think that's a really good message for who we've become.

Nothing is perfect. There's a lot that needs to be addressed for sure. But maybe that's kind of... We'll never be perfect, though. Wow. How much are we willing to accept? It's kind of that point of diminishing returns to you. We're going to keep investing things, pouring effort into it.

I always argue that somewhere along our past, we stopped. You know, somewhere along. or past, we stopped, like, championing open forum, like a true, listen, I'm not, I'm going to point this out. Like, I am not good at it. I'm trying. I want two people to come in that have opposite views, have a cordial conversation, disagree the shit out of it, and leave and be like, I may have learned something from that. I think that would be something very good for society to see you over and over and over again that you can disagree with somebody. and not hate their guts and not invite them over to family Christmas or you know you get the point

yeah like there's got to be a way we can work through some things like the you know where we're at right now is we don't do uh any of that yeah i i think any emotional uh drive um right now i mean i mean i just think about how it felt for me i mean like i was i was on the job beginning of 2020 when COVID started. It was a confusing and frightening time. I mean, what the government was telling us then, and I looked at it.

I remember I had this Facebook post I went back to and I was like looking at what I believed at the time because you kind of lose perspective on. What was being told to us is that, yeah, mortality rate of 12%. You know, that that is a reason to be afraid. Oh shit, man. I literally, I was the guy in the office

who, if we were this close, I was going, You know, man, maybe I just need to go home. Like, I just, you know, but I got three young kids. I was like, I was petrified in the first two months of that sucker. But, I mean, as I've had on this thing multiple times, I mean, what were you to do when you listen to everything the media was saying and you listen to your government? And, you know, you trust that, okay, you know, and everybody's going in, you know, the lockstep's become a real coin term over the. the course of the time, uh, the time of the pandemic.

But honestly, everybody was kind of like, what the hell is going on, right? Well, the world stopped moving for probably a solid month. Like a solid month. You're thinking, oh, yeah, the NHL shut down. Yeah, right. Okay. But I mean, on a small end, I was still playing senior hockey in a little small town Saskatchewan.

We're in the finals. And it's just a night before the lot, done. Everything's just done. And then your brain's going, you know, if I was sitting where I am now, I would have been like, I probably would have called that out. This is the most ridiculous thing ever. Nothing's coming to little town. Saskatchewan tomorrow you can't finish off your you know different anyways I

digress but that's where it was that literally that was where it was I don't think anyone should ever beat themselves up for that like if you saw it bravo but the rest of us were like holy crap what is going on I mean and it wasn't Canada it was the world yeah and part of that I would suggest the reason why I brought it up in the first place is we have the ability to communicate that now so quickly and see it so viscerally and we all carry around a phone in our pockets so we can we can get it instantly and with video That's kind of what I think has been the driving factor behind it is technology not necessarily our decisions and I'm not excusing bad decisions, but I mean

well it's like police accountability. I mean for literally hundreds of years police accountability in the community was based on reputation because because it's what people saw. But then Sony invents the camcorder and we get to see someone getting beaten on the six o'clock news. And it changes how we view it and it changes how we record that reputation.

And I know that that was a technological advancement. It wasn't something that someone did is just like, hey, I want more police accountability. So I'm going to invent the camcorder and then in 2007 invent the iPhone and there we go. And, uh, Now we're going to have high speed cell networks so we can share these videos and perfect.

Now the world will improve. But the end result was frontline policing did improve. And I don't think anyone disagrees with that because of the awareness of how that accountability can substantially affect your reputation quickly and without question. Again, there's a bad side to every coin that it can prevent action that's required. I mean, uh, Uvaldi, Texas, for example, like that school shooting where the cops stood outside. I got to say, like, that's a symptom of that technological revolution as well. I mean, there's no other way to look at it.

There isn't 40 guys that stand outside of a school room where kids are getting executed and do nothing without a fear of something bad happening to them. And it's not getting shot. Cops aren't afraid of getting shot. That's, it's. It's a reasonable risk that is weighed on many different fronts on a regular basis during the day. But reputation, reputation is very difficult to put into a risk matrix. And that's a paralyzing fear in something as, you know, kids, school, guns, shot. like you can't

this sounds horrific to say it this way I'm going to try and make it so it doesn't sound so bad but like for a cop it's the most awful perfect situation that's what you should be running into like you can't find a better situation to run into in an awful way than someone trying to attack kids

that's I mean that's literally what you guys are designed for I'm women I mean that is in an awful way of putting it and to stand outside that is it's hard to comprehend well yeah and I I wasn't there I no no no no but but you bring an interesting point about with the rise of technologies and all the good that they've done there's also bad that they've done and it's kind of it kind of goes hand in hand almost I yeah well I mean a I look at that and I like I say, I don't know what was going through those guys' heads, but I see it in a group mentality and really they're choosing from the information available.

Again, this is me reading the media. I don't know. But they're choosing to follow an order instead of do its right to simplify it. Every one of them have gone through scenarios in their head of what they would do in that situation. But none of them went through this scenario in their head. Will they disobey an order and do it? So they weren't prepared in my mind. And the reason why things are so locked up the way they are now is because of the technological advancement and the fact that everyone who wears a uniform wears the same reputation. It doesn't change if it's me or, you know, some guy I've never met working on the south side that does something bad.

I wear it. And I think that's something that society's asked for, rightfully so, that the reputation of police organizations are really, any government organization is is held to a higher standard. I wholeheartedly agree with that. But the negative outcome is individual decision making. So, you know, we can we can look at it as though yeah, there's some negative outcomes and I think this comes back and trying to circle back to the what can be viewed as police corruption there. It's it's not necessarily a bad guy doing a bad thing. It's a good guy doing a dumb thing more often than not. I'm really curious.

You talk about groupthink and the individual thinking for himself. I sit across me on. I go, obviously you weren't in the group think when you decide to go talk to the CBC. I assume that was a very sobering moment of like I'm about to do something that is not going to go over well with the higher ups and everything else. or maybe lead me through the process. Like maybe I'm wrong on that. Yeah. So this probably isn't what I believed at the time.

But over, again, almost two years have been on suspension. I'm done. I understand now that I'll never be going back to policing. But at the time, I may have been hopeful that I was. For three years, yeah, I was part of the group think for sure. I still did nothing for three years. Um, the day that I, that I did come forward and go to the CBC. I mean, um, it, it took a lot of, um, forethought, wrestled with what other options

there could be, whether or not there were any other options, whether or not doing nothing was providing silent consent. That was my concern with it. Um, how would it affect my family? I mean, yeah, I went home, talked to my wife and she didn't know everything at the time. For sure, nothing like that ended up being on the news there, but. She knew enough that she just looked at me and says, yeah, if you don't do it, you weren't the man I'm married. And I try to take good advice from the people that I care about the most.

Yeah. But yeah, I wrestled with it for a long time. So the way I look at it is that I wasn't different in any way, really. I wasn't, you know, marching in a different direction. Not, again, for three years, I wasn't. That's for sure. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, it's not as simple as simply putting someone into a category where they can think independently or that they have a certain set of skills that are, they're able to recognize what is wrong and right. That's not the world.

It's not the world we live in. Still a hard conversation you had to have with, with your wife. You know, that's, I could, maybe I'm wrong. Maybe tons of people have that conversation. You know, I, but I think most. of us would avoid that conversation. Yeah. Well, I think I think there's many instances where I would have, again, every shift that I come home, right, like I still knew the same thing. So every shift I come home and I don't talk to my wife

about it and I don't make that decision. Yeah, that's the way I look at it now. I've been asked if I regret what I did. I don't, but if I had any regrets, it would be that I wrestled so much with that indecision that I, um, that I didn't have the impulse right away to do it. Yeah, you changed, you changed the course of your life for, with that one decision. And it's something that you can have a lot of peace of mind, I assume about, right? Like, yeah, I mean, again, for a period of time, I wrestle about, you know, whether or not what I saw was in fact what I'm looking at, you know, am I, um, because if I'm wrong,

it could hurt a lot of people. It could hurt just my family too if I want to be completely selfish, right? Like why would I do that if I wasn't certain about it? And what what level of certainty do I need to accept the negative outcomes? I mean, yeah, I wrestled with it for a while. What level of certainty did you get to? What did you find an answer on that? Like what? Oh, I don't know whether or not it's a person. So there's different legal thresholds, which is hilarious, but I'm not going to, So a mere suspicion is there's some evidence that indicates something is true. And a mere suspicion is like, yeah, I've got a hunch. You know, can't really articulate it, but, you know, there's something there. A reasonable suspicion means you have some evidence and no contrary evidence.

And this is like, there's some lawyer that's going to be listening that's going to say, yeah, you're explaining it wrong. But anyway. And then I would go to reasonable and probable grounds. Okay. So I have reason to believe that this is true. It doesn't mean that it is, but I, I'm looking at this based on the totality of the circumstances. And I have to explain to me once where a reasonable person would go, probably, you know, that's reasonable and probable grounds. And, uh, and then there's the reasonable likelihood of conviction.

This is what the crown prosecutor has to go on. So whether there's enough evidence to actually get it through the court process and they make a judgment call on all that. And then there's the. beyond a reasonable doubt, right? That yeah, I, I, I don't have it, what a reasonable person would believe is evidence to think that this isn't true. It doesn't mean that it is, but I have no reasonable doubts that it isn't. And I think I got to that point, at least in my mind.

And again, I, I look at all of the evidence that was collected over years and a pattern of behavior and the, and the absence of information that isn't there that ought to be. and I can only see it from my perspective on that and that's the hard part that's where remaining objective is it is more than just a skill it's a constant exercise and re-evaluation so I'd say yeah that's that's about where I got to before I ever did anything about it well it's people I know I shouldn't say that I shouldn't never think you know one of the things I don't like is when people think for me so I shouldn't I shouldn't suppose that I can think for other people.

I think it's a dangerous little thing to get into, but I am curious on the beat while you're doing your work. How many times when you trusted your gut, did it work out that you were right? Or I don't know if rights is a word, but it led you to maybe the right place or down the line of thinking. Like was your gut your first like,

something seems off there. Yeah, instincts play a lot into it, but I've learned, well, Jordan Peterson as a whole, I think he's got a series on this too. It's like someone can understand a fact, a thing and know it to be true without being able to really articulate why or know what it is and describe it. That's kind of how the human mind first works. And then as they come to understand that thing better, then they can articulate it better. And then they become an expert to this thing that is true.

And they can not only describe exactly what it is, but provide the factors that they, that make it what it is. And I think that kind of direction, I mean, again, I'm glossing over it. So one of your listeners is going to be like, oh, this Be Hill's guy, I don't know what the fuck he's talking about. But, um, but the idea is just that. Your, your instincts, your hunch, it comes from somewhere. It's, it's not like, um, a different voice or something spiritual or something. That's not what I mean. It's, it's an intellectual understanding that you have yet to recognize enough to people to articulate it. That's it.

but more often than not. More often than not, if you follow your gut or your instinct or whatever people want to frame it as, you shouldn't fight that feeling. Probably not. I mean, there are bad instincts, for sure. There's things that human, well, everything, there's a good side and a bad side to it.

But there's instincts you should fight in certain situations, for sure. But you have to know enough about the problem to be able to convince yourself on that and articulate it. When I was working on the beat, just, you know, again, responding to 911-1 calls, the idea that you would always trust your gut was a really negative thing. You should be afraid of that is a pretty normal train of thought. Because if you can't understand it fully enough, then you should probably stop, have a safety meeting, and think about it. But there's a lot of times where that instinct that, most often it's fear where fear creeps up and there's a, you can't really be sure why. It's there for a reason.

I mean, I think most human beings are like that and cops are human beings and subject to the same faults and benefits. Right. But what happens over time is things accumulate on, from an experiential point of view. things accumulate and I wasn't really ready for it, but it can it can lead down a pretty damaging mental path where you train those same neural pathways to react through fear or suppress some way that you're dealing with some goofy shit that you see on the job and it can it can cause damage and I I know I went through classes on what PTSD might look like and all that sort of thing when I would when I join we have what's called a critical incidence

stress management team, which is like a peer support thing. So when, um, you know, when there's bad days that you have someone to reach out to and talk about it, um, but it did not hit me the way I expected for sure. Like that's something that like I think if I could go back and tell, tell myself, you know, you know, 18 year old me describe, uh, something to be, uh, worried about. That's what I would, that's what I'd talk to him about. Is PTSD? Well, it, at PTSD.

So my, I'm diagnosed with a depressive adjustment disorder is what it is. It's not really the same thing as like on TV. And that's what I didn't understand, I think. So, um, if you, if you're okay, how so? Well, um, so I would say like I'll just tell the whole story. I guess. Sure. Yeah.

But, um, uh, way back like 2011, uh, went to a pretty awful homicide, you know, blood and body parts everywhere and not good. to deal with, but it was something that when I'm going through the situation and when I've gone through the scenarios in my head many times before then, I was spared to deal with what's in front of me. For sure. I don't think I had any, um, outward negative reactions to the scene itself. Something that stuck to me was, um, and again, this has gone through the court process. I'm not going to identify anyone, but when we arrested the guy who was responsible for this, um, he's naked. He's got blood all over his all over his body. Um, and we're kind of tying him to

this EMS chair. And there's something that stuck with me is there's blood on his genitals and around his mouth. And I, I don't know, I don't know if it was just a processing issue, but this is what I've learned since is that there's something about that that I couldn't rationalize. There's something about that that stuck to me. And for months, I didn't realize what it could have been. Um, then going through other scenarios and other, going to other calls that kind of triggered of me on that. I realized that there was some damage done and, you know, talk to, talk to a doctor and talked to a therapist. And now that I've had a good, you know, 18 months by myself

with my thoughts, I've had a lot of time to think about it. So that's something I'm quite grateful for, for sure in this situation. I've been, I've been grateful that I've had the time to go over that. Um, and really work through the, some of those issues for sure. But I definitely didn't see it coming for me. And I think part of that is the perspective and maybe not enough guys talking about it. So yeah, maybe this is a good thing that I'll tell that story. But the general idea for me was I was expecting, yeah, you see, see some goofy shit on the job and it's that that thing that scares you and start having flashbacks and stuff. No, no, it's not, at least for me, it was not how it hit. It was, uh, it was something

that just kind of, you know, stuck in the back of my mind and never went away until I started looking at it and dealing with it. And it affects sleep and affects irritability and, um, like there's guys that go through the different things that I never knew were symptoms, you know, and it, it, it can be very painful, difficult to deal with, but man, it's, it again, talking to 18 year old me, that's, that's what I'd like to warn him about, I guess. Um, And having that discussion with like a young first responder, I try and try and talk about it as often as I can when I when it comes up, right? Like not be weird about it. But I think those those stories, the explanation of how it might come to you is it's not new.

It's still quite taboo to talk about. Right. Like I and I would never have gone from my diagnosis while I was on the job. Couldn't. I was afraid it would affect my job. and it probably would have. And um,

you value the work you're allowed to do. So it's a real challenge. It's a, it's a difficult topic with even firefighters, EMS. Um, it's a, it's a really hard thing to get,

get past that culture of, um, it being okay to talk about. Um, so yeah, I guess that's two points. I go, I don't know if human beings are wired to deal with what you're talking about, you know, like you, you talk about like, um, prepping your mind for what you believe it's going to be and then, you know, something catches you so off guard that just doesn't, you can't rationalize out.

Mm-hmm. You can't. Well, human beings deal with trauma very well. I mean, I was, well, it was years where I really, like, I had symptoms, but I'm able to operate. and, you know, push my feelings down and put liquor on top was never a thing. Like, I didn't really, I didn't do that. But that's part of the way our brains are structured. And it's, it's wonderful that it is because we can endure that kind of trauma and still be functional in society and do jobs that are not necessarily all that easy all the time.

So let's talk about how things have been since you mentioned 18 months 18 months So February 4th, 2021 is was like my last day. How have things been you mentioned you've come to peace with you'll probably never be a cop again. Yeah. How is the how's the stint been? Well, it's like all the phases of grief, you know. start angry why why aren't they seeing it why aren't they doing something better about this aren't they fixing the problem because that was initially what mattered

anyway to me and you move through again you move through all the phases of grief but for me I think a lot of it had to be future planning until I was able to accept that I will never be welcomed back to service is that is that bothering you yeah of course I'll miss it I do and the folks that I work with were great wonderful the the friendships that I made there working were deeper than any other that I had and being able to go out and do something that I really enjoy I mean I think that I was pretty good at detective work I mean I was able to go through some pretty complicated files and I enjoyed it every day it was you know

certainly more good days than bad and the the function of doing it I found meaningful that's that kind of interview answer I guess but like I am a firm believer that I wouldn't dedicate all of my time to something you know 40 hours a week or however you're putting into it if it didn't serve a purpose larger than myself I would hope and it doesn't mean that I achieve that all the time and you know there's definitely times where I learned that I can do things better. But yeah, I miss it for sure. And I think I always will like a little bit. But right now what I'm kind of turning my mind to is making that system better because I'm still a citizen still a citizen who

cares about how it works like I you know volunteer my community and I care about how it works out. So if there's a way to improve it, I think I'll you know keep putting my my time and effort into that. You know, when we first talked, and I don't mean to play in anything, um, when we first talked, you were pretty nervous about talking about it. Yeah. What's changed? Uh, that acceptance and I'm never going back.

Yeah. So, and there's a couple of reasons for that, right? Like, part of it is, you know, my, my mental condition. It's probably not good for me to ever go back now that I've picked that scab for 18 months. Like it's not a good thing, um, to, to wait into that. But that's the selfish part of it. And realistically, the political, and I say political within the organization and, you know, individuals that are interested in it certainly have, have made it clear that I won't be welcome back.

So that step meeting that threshold. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to have consequences for what I did. I get that. And I knew that in January 21. I knew that would happen. Um, so that's not changed. Um, the one thing that I think I would have been giving up by, you know, talking to you on your podcast or, you know, um, you know, I started writing some articles to help with, uh, some sort of academic endeavors. I want to do some research if I can. Um, and taking that step, I, I knew would seal the deal. I would never go back and then it would be my fault. That was kind of the idea. Um, but I'm, um, I think I'm just accepting reality a little better, better these days. So. that's um i don't know that's the you find something you'm really good at that you enjoy and then to point out something that you believe to be a pitfall of it all to lose it you know i don't know it's a

a choice that i'm not saying you're you're unique but you're not alone in making that choice heck you go over just emminton i think you rattled off four different people who have all stepped up since 97. So in a 25 year period roughly, you know, four different people. So every five years somebody's stepping up going there's something wrong. Yeah, and it's not all the same scope, right? We're not all talking about the same thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But yeah, it is, there's a certain population of individuals that, and I've come to learn this by talking to other whistleblowers and criminologists that are researching it that most whistleblowers are probably on the autism spectrum because they can't stand not having that thing fixed. It bothers them so much. And I find that fascinating. There was a study out of Ontario that cataloged this, not just in Canada, but across the world.

And what they found was more than 80% had enough symptoms that they could be described as on the autism spectrum. And that's probably not very fair to them. Got a bunch of autistic folks. walking around just trying to make the world right. You know, it's not, uh, not exactly the way I'd expect it, but. You'd mentioned in her emails, um, the importance of whistleblowers. Yeah.

You still hold that you need to have whistleblowers in society. Oh, yeah. Right. So the way that I look at it, and this is probably getting a little too existential as well, but, um, it seems to be a fact of our world today and part of it is the information sharing and everything we went over down that, down that garden path. But, uh, we're kind of democratizing the, the power of holding it different people, whether it's police officers or anyone else accountable, even like someone,

you meet in a bar who's misbehaving, right? Pull it your cell phone and you, you can record. Everybody has that power today. And they, they didn't. I mean, again, the iPhone was invented 2007. We're, we're spitting distance away from this massive societal change. And I'm really thankful, like, grew up before, you know, high school years without the iPhone.

Some of the, some of the things that you wouldn't want on your Facebook memories, right? 100%. 100%. Well, and it changes how you look at the world, too, I think. But I'm waxing philosophical on that, too. But for whistleblowers, the idea is that if there's a problem externally, you can go to someone to go to the police. You can say, hey, help me. This is wrong.

Someone broken in my house or whatever, whatever the problem is. internally, and this happens in every organization, if you have to report to your boss or you have to work some sort of internal chain of command process, you always have some risk to an individual in that way. Society today expects specifically about police officers that if they see something wrong that they do something about it. I don't think that's an unreasonable expectation. It would be an unreasonable expectation that we ask every person who wants to come forward, point out what's wrong, do something about it to give up their career every time. And going through the history of it and the details that are available, not just in Evanton,

but elsewhere too, that's the rule, not the exception. And back in May of 2021, there was a government accountability project. at some Washington, D.C. think tank there. Did a survey of whistleblower laws in many different countries. Canada ranked below Rwanda, below Botswana. Canada's whistleblower protections are non-existent. And I know that that's one step, one piece of the puzzle, but if our world, if we can accept the truth that our world is empowering more individuals,

than requiring some sort of systemic oversight. And if it's true that we aren't offering these people protection, and it's true that we want them coming forward when something is wrong, something's got to be fixed. And I do think that's imperative because the world isn't changing. Technology exists. We can't put that genie back in the bottle. The way we think is maybe being transferred by social media

or other information sharing options. We can't undo that. So the stress of this will break, whether or not we want our systems to break or whether or not we want to make some incremental but iterative improvements. That's a choice we can make. And that's why I think it's so important.

It's pretty crazy when you put us, where you put us with protection for people. You know, is that just short-sightedness on a government? or is that more nefarious than a guy likes to let on? Because you're talking about being, you know, like pretty low down there in the sense of how we protect people that speak up

from a sense of probably thinking they're doing the right thing by letting people know something bad's happening. Well, there's, again, two sides to that coin. So the whistleblower protections in Alberta, speaking kind of within my expertise there, and so municipal police, The avenue doesn't exist to go to the public interest commissioner, which is a government body that kind of oversees whistleblowing protections as much as they are. So if you're working in, and I'm thinking about, well, even provincially, so a sheriff sees a problem, reports it, nothing happens, goes up through the escalation process, so he goes to his commander and nothing happens.

And then the public oversight body ACERT comes along. Nothing happens. It's still possible for that individual to go to the public interest commissioner's office to have some level of oversight. And under that legislation, whether or not it's effective or not, has protections against job action. Like you can't be fired for it or otherwise moved or given punitive actions. and that is overseen by the public interest commissioner that it's non-existent at the municipal level. So I think, you say,

whether or not it's nefarious, I don't think it is, but maybe that's my optimism again. I think that it's municipal agencies, municipal governments, wanting to ensure some level of autonomy, even though they don't provide the same protections themselves. That would be my optimistic view of it.

Um, from a functional perspective, it, municipal governments just want to take care of their own fence, right? Like you mind your business, I'll mind mine, right? And when it, it doesn't come down to funding, they're happy to ensure that there's a separation of powers there from the provincial government. So, and the reason why I keep talking about provincial government is because the administration of law justice is a provincial purview in Canada. It's not federal. So an MP can't help with it or anything like that. But from a provincial point of view, the law first has to be in place and encompass enough people. The procedure has to be effective and it has to be timely. And today we don't have that.

That's not an option for individuals who maybe just want to see the right thing done and certainly don't want to make a mess. Certainly don't want attention. That's something I've heard several times. But yeah, that's kind of where we're sitting today. and I don't know that there's going to be an immediate path for that. Legislation doesn't come along quickly, and I know that. You know, your optimism I find at times curious, because you've had a really interesting go here.

And I was just thinking I hadn't read the, I think it's like the final paragraph you sent me of an email. And I'm going to read it because that way I don't bugger this up. But it said, and I can't remember if you sent this, or was in an article. So bear with me here. I had been suspended with pay just waiting to be sanctioned for what I confessed in January, 2021. Instead of charging me, either under the Police Act or criminally for my release of the documents, I was suspended with outpay in November 2021.

The commission decided to uphold the decision and my appeal to a judge for judicial review isn't set to be heard until 2023. So another year. I'm still technically employed by the EPS, but my, Pay benefits, pension are withheld. I'm still bound by orders not to leave the province of Alberta or get employed without permission. It's kind of like, you finally, the last sentence, I guess, is the EPS has granted permission to requests I've sent in, but after month long delays that sometimes come back after I would have returned from vacation,

for example, jobs I've found haven't been waiting for me once permission is received. So it's like, they got you in a bit of advice. And well, that is from me. That was in the email. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But I think that's more me, you know, bitching and complaining about it more than anything

else. But that's the circumstances that whistleblowers face that absolutely. And again, it's the rule, not the exception. So when it comes down to release of information to the media, absolutely. Like I committed an offense under the police act. I've been talking to them about that for two years. So almost two years. Um, but.

what sanction, what punishment I deserve for that, I'll never find out until the investigation's done. You know, I'm not, not charged. I'm currently sitting in an administrative hiatus. And if we want police officers, specifically in municipal police officers coming forward and and reporting wrongdoing when they see it, we got to do better than this for them. Or it'll keep being swept under the rug or a guy will decide not to, you know. I'll continue to look the other way. Well, it's possible, yeah. But having experienced it, find every way that,

every way that's within your control to be able to affect some level of improvement. So they try most. Most do. I would say that that's not an unfair statement. But when they go home and they have that conversation with their wife, they know because they see it on the CBC that, yeah, you're going to lose it. You're going to lose everything. You're going to lose the career that you care so much about.

That's for sure. And that's where I find it pretty unacceptable. But. Well, I don't know if it's identical, but it just keeps ringing in my ears because I've been talking to doctors for the last year and change. And they faced the same thing. They pointed out how, you know, they weren't allowed to, prescribe certain things or they were you know i mean jeez how many doctors have been let go in cannel

alone from just pointing out there's some funny things going on uh in the easiest sense informed consent dr francis christian in in saskatchew and sticks out he's been on the podcast and he and if you're a doctor in that field you almost go there's no point in even looking into what he's looking into because if i get the same conclusion this thing i work so fucking hard for is gone because I can't and yet the problem is is then the year go you know it isn't like one it like I mean for doctors it was I mean literally we've been stuck in this thing for two years where you're not allowed to talk and if you talk nor if you prescribe certain thing like pack your bags buddy you're done we don't want any of that yeah but and it's not identical I just in my brain

this is this this goes across professions like different professions probably face very, very similar things. Yeah, well, I'd say it's a pretty human problem. I mean, you talk about informed consent. But the father of modern policing, Robert Peel, Sir Robert, Robert Peel, he put out principles behind how individuals agree that they consent to the powers that police are given in society, that police cannot do their job unless they have the consent. to the communities that they serve.

I think the problem that we're running into today is certainly with informed consent. Can a community consent to a given agency without being told everything, without transparency? Can they consent to that? Yes, this is what I want done in my community. I don't know that that's the case. And I think that's why transparency is so important. Again, I have certain philosophical beliefs behind that, but, um, it, you know, If we are failing in that regard, not just in policing, but in health or anywhere else that you see it,

yeah, there's something that all of us need to have a part of, to demand that of those in government or those that are serving us. Public servant is supposed to be just that. And I don't think there's anything wrong with asking for that level of, that level of information to be able to participate in a system where we don't have a choice to opt out. Right. Um, whether that's health or policing or anything like that. But I, like I say, I, I, I spent a lot of time thinking about it and I, I'm, I'm worried that, um, the lack of trust that we have that I see for doctors today, um, will take a long time to heal. But I've seen it for years with police, the lack of trust.

The amount of times that I, you know, just go to a scene and immediately I'm called racist without saying a thing, right? Like, this happens. but it comes from somewhere. It doesn't know. It doesn't, it's not fabricated. It doesn't mean it's right, whether it's doctors or police or anything. But if we are able to agree on a system where

individuals within these organizations are able to speak up and they frequently do, and that improvements are incrementally or iteratively made, that builds trust. It doesn't wreck it. I'm not sure that many in charge see it that, way though. And maybe that's a bit of a cultural shift too. Well, I mean, you've brought up like three or four things where there's like zero trust in it right now. I'm police. I trust your

word on that. Healthcare, tons of people have no trust in there. I, health care has done a lot of great things for my family. So when it comes to the COVID thing, Yeah, I got them at my arm's length But I tell this story a lot My third son was safe by health care Like by doctors and nurses in the maternity ward They did some miraculous stuff and I got nothing I can talk an awful long time about that

But politicians in my book They are in my crosshairs right now Of what is going on And how do we get out of this And it certainly isn't just on politicians, right? I'm in a realm of me media. Media has been

complicit. And certainly there's, this isn't just, it isn't just one person. As much as I love to reg on JT. This leader, a leader goes a long way,

but at the same time, it's everything in our culture, there's so many different parts. It's why when I come back to Peckford's conversation, it's like, if you want change, you have to get involved. Wherever you're at,

in any part of the society, maybe you've got a podcast, maybe you're a school teacher, Maybe you're police officer. Maybe you're maybe you're, maybe you're all citizens in a society, in a democracy, which means if you want change, you have to start doing something about it. Yeah. Well, I think from a leadership perspective, and whether it's a politician or someone in commanding

police or whether it's, you know, administrator in Alberta Health Services, I don't think it really does matter because advancement is a very competitive process. The promotion process that, well, that I went through, um, was several weeks long, had exams and had to submit different resumes and go through different sets of interviews. It was complicated. It was hard. There's more people seeking promotion than would be granted it. It's hard to go through. As complicated as it is and as much effort as you have to put into it, it becomes very valuable. And your position there is somewhat tenuous when you have a risk to coming forward to point out wrongdoing or something like

that, you have more to lose. And I find, and I don't know whether or not this, this idea is fully thought out, but people become a slave to power. Like, hey, if only I can get that next promotion, then I'll have the control I need to really do good things. So I'll compromise now. Or maybe it's not my responsibility. Maybe it's this person's responsibility.

But as soon as you compromise who you are. Right? Yeah. Need a set of principles that you actually stick to regardless of what it costs you. Yeah. And that is hard to ask anyone to do. I don't think that that's really the way our society is rewarding people today. Guaranteed not.

Guaranteed not. Yeah. Nobody, yeah. But yet I admired that trait. Well, and I think everybody does, everybody, Everybody knows intrinsically that leader who will come forward and I mean I hear from ex-army guys and all that the the guys that put themselves in danger because they wouldn't ask anything their wouldn't ask anything of their squad that they wouldn't do themselves that's always an impressive trait everyone feels that there's something wired into us that recognizes that as a positive thing so why is it why is it so hard to expect that I I'm not sure but I think it may be kind of a societal lack of confidence, you know, I couldn't. So why would I expect that of somebody else? And I mean, I feel that. I mean, I'm fairly hard of myself. I see a lot of my own

flaws, right? And it's hard to, it's hard to look at that and expect more of somebody else. So that affects, especially in a democratic environment, that affects how we view our leaders. And that affects what we expect of them clearly. I would argue though that it's different within an organization that isn't elected. That's part of some sort of hierarchy that is selected by those that are in charge. I think that that expectation is entirely reasonable and not giving politicians a pass. I'm saying that it's more than just them. Certainly more than just now.

Yeah. Certainly more than just so. Mm-hmm. but they do play a pivotal role. I think they can. Yeah, of course. It's not absolute power in Canada, which is a good thing. But our division of powers, you know, like the executive, the legislative and the judicial branches, like our executive is non-existent, right?

It's part of the legislative. It's the same thing. So our division of powers little imbalanced in Canada and provincially in Alberta. But it doesn't mean that we don't all come together and find some compromise a way to work together. And on this for whistleblowers, I would say that the individual power, that democratization of power that they have to hold others accountable is very important. And it should be, it can be a very positive influence in our society if we let it. I think there's a few steps we could take to make that better. Um, just one thing that isn't a legal change is like, uh, um, if an individual wants to come forward as a whistleblower for other agencies, for example, and report it to police.

That's, let's imagine this, this scenario where it's not a police agency, but they're reporting a crime. Alberta health services, for example, that individual is allowed to remain anonymous. It's possible. You can have protections under, uh, confidential informant, which is one of the highest privileges you've can have in in a courtroom in Canada, police officers are never allowed to enjoy that protection, which I understand. I think that's the right, the right thing to do. But in the absence of other protections, some sort of system that would come forward to anonymize reports of wrongdoing for municipal police officers is something that's really attainable. It's something we could do today

without any legal changes, without any, uh, a did. infrastructure necessary but again that would take some level of community support groups of individuals that are willing to accept that that there's a police officer saying there's something wrong but still hiding their identity I it's not an easy question well this has been a quick hour and change there's a lot here there's a you know like it hasn't disappointed and having to wait for it Um, before we get to the final question, is, is there anything I've glazed over anything, you know, you, you're like, we got to talk about acts because I mean, um, by all means, you, you, you've come here and I, I want to give it the full opportunity to flush out any idea that I've missed because certainly I'm definitely not perfect sitting in this chair. Is there something, anything else that you're thinking of? Um, no, I mean, it was nice. Just a couple of dudes sitting around microphone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, uh, I don't think there's anything that I, I didn't have a particular message. I was looking to, uh,

No, just a, yeah, yeah, yeah. On a side note, we're talking whistleblowers. I'm sure I just saw it. You see Edward Snowden got citizenship in Russia. Yeah. Well, and I don't know what kind of political effect that'll have there, but Edward Snowden is, he's put out a lot of really good information about not only how to be a whistleblower or anything like that, but the, the philosophy behind it, I think he does a really good job of describing it. he's had several years to think about what he's done.

Yeah. Um, and the technical solutions that, that he's proposed make a lot of sense. I mean, uh, we have today, again, if we want to put an external constraint on the behavior of different organizations, whether it's people in power, um, police officers or anything like that. There, there are technical solutions today to deliver this information to the right people. Um, and Edward Snowden goes over a lot of that, which is, you know, whether, um,

you know, go on for another hour about like the onion router and how the dark web works. But being able to deliver the information to the right areas and get people connected so they can cooperate better, especially around things as sensitive as well. He was with the NSA. It's not some, you know, backwoods, municipal police agency that he had to deal with. But we definitely have technical opportunities there as well to provide some level of anonymity to whistleblowers that see wrongdoing. and it's not just Snowden that's kind of pushing that forward,

but there's definitely a more international push. It's not a unique phenomenon that whistleblowers are coming forward and probably more frequently than they would have in the past. And it's interesting times. That's for sure on so many different fronts. Let's slide into the final question brought to you by Crude Master Transport Show to Heath and Tracy McDonald. It's Heath's words.

He says, if you're going to stand behind a cause, then stand behind it. What's the one thing you stand behind? Well, I think what's most important, what's on my mind now after our conversation was legislative changes for whistleblowers in Alberta. I mean, it's a pretty simple change today. The Public Interest Disclosure Whistleblower Protection Act in Alberta exists. it would be five lines to ensure that municipal police agencies, employees of municipal police agencies enjoy the same protections that others do in the province. It doesn't mean that it won't have some discussion about what unintended consequences

might be there and whether or not the public interest commissioner is equipped to handle what can be very complicated dealing with police complaints or even municipal complaints and whether or not municipalities are willing to accept. that change. I'm not sure, but the change is simple, even if it's not easy. And I think that's a cause that is worth attention. Well, I've really enjoyed this, really appreciated you making the trip this way. And I'm really happy we finally got to do this. I don't know, you know, I can never see where the future leads me or you for that matter. But if our paths do cross again, And I mean, geez, it's been a quick hour and going on 24 minutes now.

So it's really cruised on by. But I appreciate you making the tour this way. And finally getting to meet you, Dan, it's been thoroughly enjoyable. I hope my audience enjoyed it as well. Happy to do it. I'm really excited to see where this goes.