Shaun Newman Podcast - #350 - Rupa Subramanya 2.0

Episode Date: December 1, 2022

She is a columnist for the National Post, podcast host with True North &  is frequently interviewed on outlets such as The New York Times, Financial Times, and BBC News. We discuss MAID - medically assistance in dying here in Canada.  Let me know what you think Text me 587-217-8500

I'm Alex Craneer. This is Sarah Swain. This is Terry Clark. This is Tom Corsky. I'm Trish Wood. This is Dr. Peter McCullough. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Man, start of a new month means a brand new intro.

If you've been listening to the podcast for some time now, it's something we started a few months ago, probably going on six months now, I suppose. Every month, the first episode of a new month, we got to play the people that came from the previous month. Man, it's fun. I didn't realize how much I enjoyed putting it together, but there's some names for you. Every month, man, it's been pretty cool to enjoy the ride on this side, if you will.

And we got some cool things in the works in the background here. As soon as they come to fruition, I'll make sure to direct everybody where it's going, but they haven't quite come through yet. So as soon as they come, you know, you'll be the first to hear about it. Here's a cool thing, and I want you guys this, feedback on this. Vance Crow, he's been a guy on the podcast multiple times out of St. Louis. He's going to be in Emmington for a conference in January, and he's coming to Lloyd Minster for a few days,

and what I'm trying to figure out is do I put on a show in January in Lloyd with Vance Crow as one part of it? If you think that's a great idea, I don't know, hit me up via the text line, because I'm just wrestling with, do I just sit back and show them a few different things, or do I try and get them in front of a whole bunch of you and go from the next? there either way you you let me know uh i appreciate your guys's insight um you know as much as anyone and usually uh the the text line is just a flying anyways today is a bonus episode um i was i was going to leave rupert till friday but then you know i did another one i'm like you know what i'm going to put it out thursday we'll do one day a week this week you know i don't try since

moving away from the western standard um thursdays is usually a little bit of a flex day where if If there's something there, let's put it out. Well, today, Rupa and me get into Maid and you're going to hear all about it. So I thought, why wait? We might as well put it out and see what all you find folks think. And, you know, if you're listening to show and you like what you're hearing, please do like, subscribe, share, that type of thing. I've started releasing on Facebook.

The videos now, of course, on Spotify, you can see the video as well. trying to you know I've been getting more and more requests to see the actual conversations and pretty quick here we're going to be changing the format not of the show but of the we've been using Zoom

I don't know what has it been folks three years now like geez it seems like a long time and that's I believe coming to an end here very short like starting to use a different platform and going to test it out I've got to use it a couple different times.

I have liked what I've seen so far. Tuesday mashup was the first kick of the can with it, was Streamyard and really enjoyed it. So I think we're going to be switching over to that, which should give for a better visual. You know, like sometimes a Zoom video is like, a Zoom call is like, well, whatever, to watch it, you know. And the Streamyard is a pretty slick little platform.

So as we iron out the kinks with that, I'm going to be trying to release it more. You know, if you're on Twitter, the videos are coming out on Twitter and Facebook at 6 p.m. on days of, you know, being released. And obviously on the podcast, it's bright and early for you. So on your way to work, you can just, you know, download the way you go. If you got other suggestions for the show, you know, I love there's some, some of you are just fantastic. Like giving different suggestions on who to get on the show.

Sometimes we can make it happen. Other times it takes a lot of effort. and we're trying to do a lot of different things. So, but do appreciate. You got, you got some of your fall and you're like, you need to talk to this person. Well, let's get it done, you know. As you've figured out by now,

I'm open to talking to just about anyone and everyone, and would love to have your suggestions and hear from all of you as we, you know, as the years progress. I'm looking forward to Christmas season, to forewarn everybody coming up at Christmas. I haven't done an archive interview and, well, I haven't done one in a long time, but I haven't released.

I got two left. They're going to be coming out at Christmas, so as you've all figured out, I'm big on family and community and everything else. So I've got two bottled for Christmas, not to do spoiler alert, but during the Christmas week, two of the episodes that week, to take a little bit of a break are going to be some archive interviews that have been, you know, from the Lloyd Minster area that have been sitting on the shelf waiting for that time. And I guess I would just finish off by saying, you know, if you're, sorry, I can't spit it out.

December is my month where I am really active in searching out sponsors for the show for the next year. And I love, you know, I love working out different details. And if you are a company, a business owner, or you, you know, you like what the show is doing, that type of thing, and you got some ideas, fire that across the text line as well. because December is the month where we push hard to ensure the show will go on in 2023, and certainly I want to continue on doing this. I think from the feedback I get from all you lovely folks that you enjoy it as well. So with that all being said, let's get on to the tail of the tape brought to you by Hancock Petroleum for the past 80 years.

They've been an industry leader in bulk fuels, lubricants, methanol, and chemicals delivering to your farm commercial or oil field locations. For more information, visit them at Hancockpetroleum.com. She's a columnist for the National Post, a podcast host with True North, and frequently interviewed on such outlets as the New York Times, Financial Times, and the BBC. I'm talking about Rupa Suburmania. So buckle up. Here we go. I'm Rupa Supermania, and I'm listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast and welcoming back Rupa, Supermania.

So first off, ma'am, how's it go today? Well, it's been a very interesting and busy Monday as usual for me, but I'm doing well. I'm not snowed under like you, Sean. We're still dealing with, you know, very mild temperatures here in Ottawa, which is pretty unusual for this time of year, but I'm not complaining. Yeah, you're soaking it in is what you're doing. I literally was on the weekend. It was at 11 degrees on Saturday.

and sunny. It was a bit like we were back, you know, we were once again experiencing summer, but it's, it's funny like how you find 11 degrees, hey, it's such a lovely day, you know, and, you know, it's quickly how we adapt to these things. And whereas 11 degrees and August would be like, oh, my God, it's so cold out there. Welcome to life in Canada, where it just seems to bounce around all over the, all over the place. Yeah. You know, I was, we talked the last time you were on and tons of people reached out, really enjoyed what you had to say and your thoughts.

And towards the end of that, or maybe after we got off, we started talking about made medical assistance dying here in Canada. And you'd written an article on it. And I'm like, kind of like, I'd like to hear some more about it. And so I mean, for the first bit of this, unless it goes for, you know, the short time I got you or whatever it is, I'd really like to have your thoughts on it. Maybe give the audience a bit of a background on it. I've had tons of people asking me to have somebody on to talk about it. And I don't know, Rupa, you've definitely done some digging into this.

Wherever you want to start, to be honest, and then we'll pick away at it. Well, thanks, thanks, Sean. I mean, it's great to be here. And, you know, I enjoyed being here the last time I was on your show. We were talking about vaccine mandates and the pandemic. and we're going to be talking about Maid today. It's a real pleasure to be here. So let me just jump into it.

So Maid is medical assistance and dying. It's a rather innocuous-sounding acronym for something that is pretty grim and existential. And that's an important point, I think, because it shows how we've normalized medical assistance in dying. we've normalized medical assisted suicide, as some doctors who oppose me call it. They say, let's call it for what it is. It's getting assistance for you to kill yourself. And now, here's the thing. I'm not opposed to medical assistance in dying for patients who are people who are terminally ill.

They have, you know, they're suffering. they're in pain. Their life is, you know, not what it used to be. They have a few months to live. They have a few days to live. And they just do not want to continue suffering. And there's a case to be made there for people like that who wish to use made to put an end to their suffering. And so that is when death is foreseeable.

So when medical assistance in dying became legal in Canada in 2015, I believe, or 2016, that was how it began. Death had to be reasonably foreseeable, which means that, you know, you're terminally ill and so on and so forth. That was called Track 1 Made. Then in March of 2021, Track 2 made went into effect. which basically got rid of the death is not foreseeable clause. Death is foreseeable clause. So death now no longer has to be reasonably foreseeable.

You could just be like, I just don't want to continue taking these insulin shots for my type 2 diabetes because I feel that's not a way of, you know, I'm not happy living that kind of life. So you could be, as a doctor explained to me, you know, you could be 70 years old. have type 2 diabetes, you're taking insulin, and you could say, you know, I just don't like this treatment anymore and I want to apply for made and chances are you're going to get approved.

Now the diabetes example is a good one because not only does it tie in with one of the stories that was featured in my story for Barry Wise's common sense. It's also diabetes is so incredibly common. You know, a lot of people are diabetic. And especially when you go to countries like India, you know, and other developing countries, diabetes is as common as anything else. And it's treatable. So if people are actually contemplating medical assistance and dying for diabetes, I find that proposition, I find that very, you know, scary and perplexing. because they still have many, many years ahead of them where, you know, this condition can be treated and they can and they can live a normal life. I know tons of people like that who take insulin shots every day and they're on medications and they're fine.

You know, they're not dying in any sense of the, you know, in any sense. So track two made comes into effect March 2021 where death is not reasonably foreseeable. Now what we're doing is in a few months in March of 2023, what's going to happen is that we're going, made is going to expand further and where mental illness becomes the sole underlying condition for medical assistance and dying. Now, what is mental illness? How do you define mental illness? I mean, these are questions that even the medical community, this has as a hard

time, you know, coming up with any kind of definite answers. But this is, this is where we're going. And there is also this debate, whether it should be expanded to mature minors. So kids between the ages of 12 and 17, I think, and where we're, I laugh because it's so absurd because there's no, 12 to 17, listen, I'm sure there's a couple of heartache stories out there where people are like whatever. But 12 to 17, there's no such thing as a mature minor. There just isn't. They can't even begin to understand the ramifications of getting a tattoo, let alone

medically assisted suicide. That's the most insane thing I think I may have ever heard. And I tell you what, the last two years has sure put a lot at us. But that one is a pretty tough, tough thing. I wrote these couple things down, you know, just to give the listener a little bit of back, not maybe just an idea because I'm not against well I'll go back 2014 dying with dignity Canada who's one of the big

foundations who pushes for this Rupa did a commission commissioned Ipsis to do a public perception study and they found 84% of people agreed that a doctor should be able to help someone end their life if the person is competent adult who is terminally ill suffering unbearably and repeatedly asked for assistance to die

and then they did another one a couple years later and they found that 70% of Canadian and strongly supported removing the requirements that a person's death be reasonably foreseeable making them eligible for made. And then you keep fast forwarding. And I think this is what I did a bunch reading it, you know, on different, because this has been going on for a long time. You know, this isn't like a five-year thing. 1980 is when dying with dignity, Canada is formed, right? So they've been pushing for this for a long time. 2015, 2016, somewhere in there, like you said, it gets put in. And now it's become this real slippery slope or where they just keep expanding it.

Yeah. I mean, since Mays legalization in 2016 by the federal government, its scope has really continue to widen. You know, it's definitely gotten more expansive. And even compared to some European countries, I think we really stand out. you know, if you look at countries like Belgium and the Netherlands, I mean, the, it is very clear that we have a higher percentage of made debts. You know, British Columbia, for example, has seen the highest increase in made debts, I think, as a percentage of total debts. It's roughly around 4.8% right now of total debts.

So basically, you know, and Quebec, isn't that far behind either. So one in 20 people, I believe, if I remember the, if I remember the data, one in 20 people who died, you know, died through assisted suicide or voluntary euthanasia or made or whatever you want to call it. Vancouver Island is called the assisted death capital of the world. I mean, I associate a lot of things with Vancouver Island and have spent a lot of time in BC, but for it to be known as the assisted death capital of the world is quite disturbing. It just doesn't sound good. But, you know, where the percentage of made debts is almost, I think, like three times

a national average. And, yeah, it is quite something. So, you know, and again, as I said, the made regime in Canada has just become more and more expansive. And, you know, there's been an increasing trend in all of these countries were made as legal. You know, increasing trend in assisted dying. So even in Netherlands, for example, it's, you know, considerably higher today than it was, say, back in 2002 when they legalized it.

Same thing with, I believe, Belgium as well. but we are still one of the most, Canada's is still one of the most permissive in the world. And it's so permissive that the UN back in 2021, just before Track 2 made came into effect in March of 2021, the UN Special Rapporteur for the, on the rights of persons with disabilities, this independent expert panel, you know,

wrote a really harsh letter addressing the government of Canada saying that, that, you know, they were alarmed at this expansion of Maid to Track 2, which would allow those with disabilities and those suffering from illnesses that are not terminal. You know, so basically where death is not reasonably foreseeable to receive Maid. And that they said, you know, look, I mean, we're very alarmed at this. and maids expansion would have a potentially discriminatory impact on people with disabilities, especially vulnerable people, right? And I spoke to a whole bunch of such people for my story, especially people with disabilities.

These are people who are seeking maid because they cannot afford a couple of hundred bucks in medication every month. They're living in poverty. disability support doesn't cover, you know, their expenses. It doesn't, you know, they face, you know, they're facing financial hardships and they just don't want to live this way anymore. So they've been calling them a made helpline or whatever it's called and asking to speak to a nurse or someone who can help them understand and what would be involved in, you know, in applying for made. But so these are people who are, who have, you know, many years to live, but they're doing doing this because they just can't afford to live anymore.

Yeah, it's, this is, you know, this is one of those topics that's like really complex, right? It's not like, it's not like you can just turn it off. But at the same time, I just go back to this. slippery slope, you know, as it, as it got okayed by the government, and it took almost 40 years from the time they started pushing for it. Once it's got enacted, man, it has just opened this door. I want people to, it was Veterans for Freedom Document that showed that, you know, I want to make sure people out west know that it isn't just BC and Quebec. There was a 54.8% increase in Saskatchewan. That was the highest of all the provinces.

increase in its use, followed by Quebec and Newfoundland. So, like, you know, the reason I bring that up, Rupa, is I want people out here that are, you know, like, oh, yeah, and that doesn't happen out here. It's like, no, it's happening, you know. Yeah. In 2016, there was 1,000 people use it. Yeah. 2021, 10,000.

Yeah, yeah. Right? Right. Yeah. That's not a small number. No, it's not. It's not. And it's very alarming.

Look, here's the thing. Like, even doctors. So I spoke to the chair of the expert panel on Maid for Mental Illness. They recently came out with a report, I think back in the summer June of this year, you know, this expert panel was constituted to come up with, you know, kind of a roadmap and, you know, for medical assistance in dying from mental illness when it becomes legal in March or 2023. And I spoke to the chair of this expert panel.

And, you know, she, she, Dr. Mona Gupta, and she acknowledged, look, there's a possibility of misuse of made for those with mental illness. But she had, she made a very interesting comment. So where was I? So I spoke to this doctor. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. She's a really well-known doctor. And so, you know, I asked her, look, you know, I mean, this.

This is a question I asked. Every doctor I spoke to, is there a possibility of misuse of maid for those with mental illness? And she had a very interesting response. She says, look, this danger exists across the board for all applicants for made, you know, irrespective of what the category of illnesses. You know, so the only way, the only guarantee, according to her, against misuse, is not to have made in the first place. That's the only way. way. So, you know, and she says, look, I understand the concerns of people about the misuse, but that is part of medical assistance in dying. It's going to be, it's not just, why is mental illness treated differently from track one made or track two made for that matter? And so that was

her point. And, and, you know, and, you know, some of these doctors see made as, you know, society making an ethical choice. This is actually, I think, in the medical assistance in dying report for mental illness. It's a very interesting use of the word that term that society is making an ethical choice to enable some people to receive made. And so would suggest to me, reading between the lines, that there is really, really no ethical distinction between made medical assistance at dying and suicide. It's very interesting.

There's a line in the report. Now, I may be, you know, this is paraphrasing it, paraphrasing it, that, you know, society is making an ethical choice, you know, for people to receive made on a case-by-case basis, regardless of whether, I think, made and suicide are considered to be distinct or not. So basically there's no difference between medical assistance and dying and suicide. So it's very, very interesting. And, you know, I... Except we're giving...

The difference is we're, as a society, we're giving the okay on it. We're not just giving the okay. We have normalized it, you know? Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant. That's exactly what I meant. We have death cafes. We have made doulas, dead doulas. I've heard of doulas for people who, for mothers who are, for women, not persons, for women who give birth.

But dead doulas, this was a new one for me. And this showed up when I was, you know, when I was researching the story. You know, we've just basically normalized medical assistance and dying. Speaking of which, I saw something very strange on someone's Twitter feed last night. It's an ad by Simons. I don't know if you've seen it, Sean. It's an ad by Simons of a woman who is talking about her last few days. She has, you know, she says as I contemplate the end of my life,

or something like that. This is a clothing. This is a department store, essentially romanticizing and normalizing medical assistance and dying. And I don't know. Now we have ads for made, you know, and they're like, hey, you know, this is like anything else. How about this?

Okay, because you talk about big business and everything else and death cafes and doulas and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, I just, I go back, I went to dying with dignity candy because as soon as I started digging into this, you realize that's who's been pushing it. Well, in 2021, they spent $665,000 on advertising and promotions. Yeah. They spent over a million dollars on salaries and benefits for, and you're like, you don't think it's going to be big business. It looks like it's big business to me. Yeah.

And that's a, that's a scary thought. I just, you know, I go back. When I read the 2014 survey where 84% of people agreed that doctors should be able to help someone, you know, who's an adult who's terminally ill, suffering unbearably and repeatedly asked for assistance to die. You go, yeah, I mean, you know, at some point, they're an adult. If they want to go, they want to go. Now we're talking about the mentally ill. Now we're talking about mature minors. Now we're talking about a bunch of things that make zero sense.

Yeah. And I know there's probably a case out there for somebody to say this person, blah, blah, blah. blah, blah, extenuating circumstances and everything else. But I think what gets everybody a little bit tight is, you know, I'll do the little conspiracy tie a couple things together and it doesn't take much. It was Dr. William Macchus who was talking about the Ontario College of Physicians, I believe, saying, suggesting, because it hasn't been said that it was going to happen, but suggesting that people who are hesitant on the vaccine.

maybe should have psychiatric medication. So are they going to say they have a mental illness? And you can see how this slides. And right now, normally I'd say I give that zero credence, except I've been watching the guy in office. We just got to see him on the stand at the Emergency Commission. And lying is just second nature to him. And you go, anytime you have a program like this,

it's starting to get a wide berth, you know, when he's got people he doesn't like, and you know, here in Saskatchewan, they were going to have in the middle of COVID, they were going to have facilities to put you, and they made it all nice and neat, and it wasn't that big a deal. But you started seeing the groundwork being laid,

and you go, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't even like, and I understand why people's tail feathers are really up, and maybe some hairs are even raised. Because when it's just, you know, you're terminally ill, these couple things check off, blah, blah, blah.

It's like, I don't think anybody's getting, I don't think it has raising any hairs. I don't think that's why too many people are even that worried about it. As soon as you mentioned mature minors, my hair with kids goes way up because they should never be able to access this ever. And I understand there's going to be the odd person

who goes except for, and I'm like, well, maybe. But even with kids, there's just things they should never be able to access. This shouldn't be anything they should be able to content. Well, that's the thing, right? Mature minors can't vote. They can't drink. They can't drive.

they can't do a whole bunch of things, but yet they can choose to die, like have medical assistance in dying. Yeah, something's really, you know, screwed up with that scenario. But, you know, you mentioned, you know, I think you touched upon the financial incentives here. And I, I believe believe you did. And I think this is an important component of this because, you know, a lot of doctors who oppose Maid and they're worried about the slippery slope and they're worried about where all of this is going. They say very clearly, look, it's just cheaper to provide made, especially for those who are not dying. Then it is to pay social assistance, for example, for, you know, for a next number of years. And indeed, I think there was a report prepared by the parliamentary budget

office recently that showed how much, you know, the country could save and health care costs I've made were to be, you know, made where to continue in this manner. So it's, you know, it is quite, it is quite something. I mean, it's quite, you know, we're going into this, it's very dystopian. And speaking of which, like, you know, when I was working on the story, there was a, the Toronto Film Festival was going on, and there was this film, a Japanese film playing at the Toronto Film Festival

called Plan 75. And I forget the name of the director, but the film is about this dystopian future in Japan where an aging population is, you know, is placing a burden on the state. It's an aging population. They have a lot of Japan is, I think one of the oldest populations in the world, maybe, maybe Italy is slightly older. I don't know. But anyway,

so they prove an unbearable financial burden on the state. And so the government comes up with this plan called Plan 75, which offers medical assistance in dying, voluntary, euthanasia for those who are 75 or older, you know, and they give them a financial incentive. And, you know, so basically you have all of this money. You can just blow it all up before you die. But that's the incentive. So, you know, we're kind of like, you know, staring into that dystopian future here in Canada. You know, basically you're getting death on demand for, for, for, for a,

anyone who wants it, right? And, you know, one doctor said this to me, said something very interesting to me. She said, you know, this is a very woke concept. And I said, how? How is medical assistance and dying woke? And she said, well, it's because you, you know, it's death on demand. Like you decide when you want to die, how you want to die, who is in the room with you, the terms of your death and so on and so forth.

It's like, you know, we just, you know, we just. you know, we, you know, it's, that's how it's, death has become that way now in Canada. And she, she said it's a really woke concept. And, and I tend to agree with her, you know, it's become very frivolous. It's become very easy. And I always, you know, it's funny. Through COVID, you know, I hate to bring, you know, it's just the COVID stands out so, like, just stark. It's just there.

I go. everybody you know everyone in the back in the medical community that understands how it's falling apart and how it's burdened and blah blah and this isn't anything new and it's been going on and we could see that our population's aging and blah blah blah blah blah instead of instead of like trying to find ways to uh you know a make our population healthier yeah provide alternatives like do these things that would make sense. It's like we go to the darkest, easiest button though, you know? Yeah. Like, you could just end your life. And there's a cash incentive, you know, for the, for the state, because obviously they don't have to worry about how you're going to live out the last 10 years of your life on the different things and I'm sure there's a ton of money that's tied up in that and whatever else. And so they make a report saying,

you know, actually, if people did medical assisted suicide, it would save us a ton of money. And that would be great. It's like, you realize if we, uh, started doing other things, it'd be great too, and it would probably be healthy for the population. You know, instead of going down this road, this road seems, it just seems doom for disaster. Like, eventually it just, you know, while I go back to Gupta, I believe there was her name where she said, you know, there's always going to be a little bit of abuse. It's like, yeah, but it only takes, I mean, look at human history. It only takes the wrong government, the wrong people at the helm, and you get. one of the worst atrocities in the last 500 years. And I think we all know what I'm talking about.

Yeah, yeah. No, absolutely. Look, assisted suicide in Canada began, I think, as a, you know, sincere attempt of a, you know, of a humane and democratic society to help those who are terminally ill. You know, that you have some autonomy. You have some control over how you want to live the rest of your life. when you're terminally ill. But what is happening now is that it's morphing into some kind of a substitute for a well-functioning health care system in an economy that is, you know, in a cash-strapped economy and where you have

death on demand. And it's being rationalized as the highest form of personal autonomy. So that's where we are. You know, you can have personal autonomy and debt. death, but you can't have personal autonomy anywhere else, it seems. Yeah. I mean, is this legitimate freedom of choice, or is it personal autonomy gone mad? And I think that is essentially what the debate has come down to in Canada.

I'm curious your thoughts on this. Because what I, you know, I bring up they started in 1980, and they're pushing and they're pushing and they're pushing. Yeah. They finally get what they want. And I've heard this story from one of the former guys at Greenpeace. I've heard this I mean you probably all seen

what is a woman right we've talked you get these people or these groups I know I'm not even saying you know it's just an idea of like we need equal rights

we want you know when when you're talking about made the initial idea I go back to it it's somebody who's sitting on their death bed and just wants to go peacefully right like just let me

and you know I think of I think of the movie million dollar baby with Clint Eastwood right there is going to be certain I think all of our hearts bleed for that. But eventually you get that.

And instead of stopping and saying job well done and they move on, well, I just got to go back up to it. You got dying with dignity, you know, they're spending a million dollars on salaries and benefits, $665,000 on advertising and promotion. That's 2021. So it's like, well, we can't just stop because I mean, you know, what are we going to? And so now it just keeps getting pushed further and further and further and it's like, well, where does it end?

Well, it ends. I feel like Rupa. Maybe I'm wrong on this. When society goes no more. And the problem is with so many things, society's moving headlong and most of us can't, you know, like think about this. Shouldn't this be talked about more? Except I don't hear much about it.

Maybe you do, but I don't. No, I would disagree slightly there with you, Sean. I do think that there is a fair bit of coverage, believe it or not, in the mainstream media, almost every day I see a story about a story on maid and how, you know, where, you know, like last week I saw a story about a veteran who was offered made. And, you know, he's suffering from PTSD and they're like, yeah, have you considered made? I see it in the news quite a bit. I see some politicians also flag it as a, you know, and then they're very much.

very concerned about where we're going with this. There is, I'm starting to see some pressure here. And also, the rest of the world is looking at Canada. Like, you know, this is one of the big stories that is, you know, that's coming out of the country. And, you know, Canada's just basically been associated with made at this point. But what I'm not seeing is I'm not really seeing any kind of, there's a lot of concern, but I'm not seeing sort of, you know, this pushback, but I'm not seeing any reaction from the other side,

the people who, you know, are gung-ho about medical assistance and dying. I'm not seeing anything, say, from the government. I'm not seeing them react to this. They've actually remained more or less silent on these debates over the last few months. So how does, you know, how do you, I don't know. I don't know how you, you know, what are the, you know, what are the safeguards in place? So, you know, there's no room for misuse. And we've seen that, you know, there is a great scope for misuse.

As my lead story showed, here's a 23-year-old guy who has type 1 diabetes and he's experienced vision loss. He has no vision in one eye and he's about to lose vision in the second. he you know he's he's he's a young man i've spoken to him in extremely um intelligent funny charming person um kiano vafayan uh and um he had been talking about medical assistance and dying for a while but he was not eligible for it because made had not been expanded to track two um before march of 2021. But as soon as it had expanded to track two, made, he decided to apply earlier this year. And he was approved. He was quickly approved. And the conversation that he had with this doctor was just

absolutely insane. And they're texting each other back and forth about where he could die. the doctor is happy to do house calls. He doesn't work on the weekends. But, you know, you're talking about someone dying over text messaging. It's crazy. And his mother discovered that he had been approved for maid and she created, you know, she, you know, was livid, essentially, to put it mildly. And she took to social media and she,

took out a campaign, social media campaign, change.org. She exposed the doctor and made house at Toronto, which was going to go ahead with this procedure on her son. She called the doctor pretending to be someone else and saying, look, I want to get, I want to die by Christmas, basically. I have type one diabetes and I'm going blind and I don't want to suffer this way anymore. And the doctor said, you know, I can do a consultation with you over Zoom or FaceTime,

and we can go into, you know, your condition. I have tons of patients like you, and it's doable. You know, it's almost like, I mean, we take, we take, I feel like we take more time in consideration for a knee surgery than we do for made, you know, it's just become so incredibly easy and accessible. And she had 10. days to stop her son from dying. And, you know, and she created, you know, enough, created enough attention to the issue. She brought enough attention to the issue that the

doctor just changed his mind. He said, I cannot go ahead with this. You'll have to get another doctor to prove you for medical assistance in dying. So that's essentially how his life was changed. And I spoke to Keanu several times. And, um, and, um, and, um, You know, I got the sense that he was actually very grateful that he was not dead. You know, he's found a sense of purpose, which is extraordinary. And I've spoken to him, I said, Keanu, like, you would have been dead last Wednesday. But here you are, here you and I are chatting. And this was right around Thanksgiving.

He spent Thanksgiving with his grandparents, and he was picking vegetables from his grandmother's garden, and he was having a great time. And he said, I'm very grateful to be here. So this is, yeah. You wonder if it isn't a bigger societal problem, and I hate to throw a giant question on you as times slowly clicking down on us. But, you know, for a lot of people,

not including myself, but I just like to know people care, right? Like we're human beings, we want to interact. and sometimes, you know, there's some tough years in their high school and maybe even college for some people, you know, can be some tough years where there's a lot of, uh, uh, pure judgment and pressure and everything else. I think we've all gone through it in our different ways. And I can see where it can get lonely. And then, you know, I, I can't sit here and say, you know, like typewine diabetes never had to deal with it. Blindness never had to deal with it. Um, but once again, you go like at 20, in your early 20, in your early 20, to even be thinking about that. Yeah. I just, I don't even, I don't know what to say, you know, I can't imagine being there. But we get so trapped in our screens, you know, we get so trapped on online, everything,

you know, Rupa, someday I'd like to come to Ottawa or vice versa, any time you're out West and do this in person. I say this all the time. It's so much better in person, right? Yeah, yeah. And you wonder as we get stuck more and more on a screen, less and less in person, if, if something like this isn't just a creation of what we've, you know, a repercussion of some of what society has been moving towards. Yeah. I mean, that's a big question at the end of a,

I tend to agree. And I think the pandemic has certainly exacerbated this, right? I mean, we're all on Zoom. We're all, you know, mostly on Zoom. I mean, now, you know, I, I make an effort to go out and see people because, you know, I, I can't. deal with this. It's too isolating, right? I prefer to be at in-person events, speak to people, you know, and I, that's very important to me. But I think if you're just doing this all the time and, you know, just staring at a computer screen, screen mostly, it's very isolating. You know, you just, we're not meant to be this way, right? We're social animals. We're, you know, were meant to interact with people.

You know, you determine the level of interaction, obviously. Some people are more private than others, but still, you know, I found the first, the two years of the pandemic till all of the restrictions came undone earlier this year or in the middle of this year, it had a devastating impact on me mentally. You know, I never thought I was mentally strong and that I could deal. deal with it, but it did affect me. And it, you know, it took me a while to get over it. And if, you know, and that's just me. And just imagine the number of people who, I think that was a survey, a poll or a study that came out a few days ago, that there's been a sharp rise in the number

of Canadians who, you know, who experienced a mental health crisis because of the pandemic for the first time. well I can sit here I can sit here and put my I remember when Bell let's talk yeah was and I you know I supported I certainly had friends and family that had gone through their different mental health I don't know moments whatever you want to call it crisis and yeah yeah I never thought I would say that aloud right except in the middle of COVID yeah started to go a little bit a little bit crazy like yeah it was it was though there was some tough tough months in the middle of that thing.

Oh, no, I mean, I mean, there's, there's, it's become more socially accepted to talk about a lot of things. But still,

you got a leader of our country. You know, before I let you out, because I'm looking at the time now, Rupert and I've got you over time. So, um, with Daniel Smith coming out and talking openly about it,

I, obviously the premier of Alberta, I've had lots of people text me. And actually, uh, Sarah Swain was just on. And she said that was very just like, she cried.

because for so long nobody would acknowledge what was going on, right? Well, he's still got a leader that won't even say that he said anything wrong in the middle of COVID. Meanwhile, he's the leader of the country. And a lot of people get their marching orders from that, man, and what he said and how he presented himself not only in the last election, but moving forward with it. Either way, I appreciate you giving me time. And I've kept you a couple minutes long. I didn't mean to do that. Oh, no, my pleasure, Sean.

This is a hugely important topic. For me, you know, as a classical liberal, pragmatic libertarian, whatever, like I, it's, it's very, you know, I don't quite know, I'm concerned about the mature minors bit, but I also respect bodily autonomy, personal autonomy, autonomy. But I also worry about where we're going as a society. There are no easy answers here. And I'm honest about that, that it presents some huge moral dilemmas for me. personally, but I think it's very important that we continue to have these conversations and we debate them and we get them out in the open and, you know. Well, it gives it gives me hope that you're seeing a lot of people talking about it or at least that it's because for me that that's good news. I always say that the important things are what we need to talk about and having you on today to talk openly about it, you know, is only going to do good because I, once again, I understand

how complex this is. But when you put mature minors in there, Yeah. My tail feathers are up. And I'm sure for a lot of people when you say mental illness, they go, well, what is that? Yeah. Right. Either way, thanks again for giving me some time, Rupa. I appreciate it.

And I can't wait until the next time because I'm sure, you know, you're going to break a story and I'll be all over you to get back on here. I have a feeling I may. I just do that. And I'm, and even if I don't, I think I'll still come on your podcast. We can talk about something. And it's my pleasure to be here, Sean. So thank you for inviting me. Thank you very much. You have a great day and get out of here before I keep you for an extra five. Okay. Thanks, Sean. Take care.