Shaun Newman Podcast - #361 - Andrea Martin

Episode Date: December 23, 2022

Nutritionist and proud mom. Andrea tells the story of being stuck in a Hamilton hospital and having her 9 month old tested against her will.  Let me know what you think Text me 587-217-8500

I'm Alex Craneer. This is Sarah Swain. This is Terry Clark. This is Tom Corsky. I'm Trish Wood. This is Dr. Peter McCullough. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast.

Folks, happy Friday. Hope everybody's week is cruising along. Man, Christmas, just around the corner. Literally, this weekend coming up, we're going to have Christmas here. So wherever you're at, I hope you're staying warm. I hope you're enjoying some time with friends and family and, well, I don't know, and enjoying some time here. In the coming week, I've got today with Andrea,

and then Monday is going to be Ken Drysdale, and then I got a couple of canned archive interviews to come, Mr. Almer, Mr. Weaver. So next week I'm shutting everything down. You're going to have three shows, Monday, Wednesday, Friday, but as for me, I'm going to lay pretty low for the most part and going to enjoy some time with the wife and kids. Mel's away from school now for a little chunk of time, so the kids are home, and we're going to

spend some family time, and hopefully that's what you get to do wherever you're at. Either way, Merry Christmas to all of you. Thank you so much for supporting the show as it's gone along. I couldn't have done it without you and the sponsors and everything else. It's been a fun. At times, I say a fun ride. It's been an interesting 2022. I think it's been an interesting.

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So buckle up. Here we go. This is Andrew Martin and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Today I'm joined by Andrea Martin. So first off, ma'am, thanks for hopping on. Thanks. Yeah, I'm glad to be speaking with you. Now, your story has caught certainly a lot of our eyes and that's because there's a group of us that all kind of hang in the same circles and see who's, you know, coming on everybody's show and that type of thing. but I'm going to assume for majority of my my audience. They probably don't know your story or who you are. So maybe we just start with who is Andrea?

What's your background? And we'll just slowly go into it from there and see what we get to. Okay. Well, essentially I'm a mom. And I'm also a nutritionist. But being mom is number one. So that's what I do. And essentially the reason that I'm speaking with you today is because I had taken my daughter to the hospital and she was admitted and tested positive for RSV influenza and pneumonia.

And then within a couple of days, they were trying to convince me that it was possible meningitis. They did various tests that all came back negative. They did two blood cultures and a CT scan, but that wasn't sufficient. They wanted to do a spinal tap, and when I refused a spinal tap, they wanted to do an MRI. So therein lies my problem, and it has more to do with the fact that they were using sedation, and Gatch allows the MRI imaging to actually, my daughter's only nine months old, either of those. and in the end, even though I didn't consent to it, they did it anyways. So that's essentially my story.

You know, the listener is going to be screaming at me going, okay, get to the get to, what did she just say? And I'm kind of like, I just want to slow it down for a second. You know, you say I'm just a mother. And it's probably the most important job on the planet. I mean, so don't just say I'm just a mother. I think the world of families that can find a way to do that in today's world, because today's world is extremely difficult, expensive. Times are very volatile, I think, might be the word, Andrea.

So, no, I think that's pretty cool that you can be a mom, first and foremost. I think a lot of women would agree with that. So I don't think there's any, you don't have to sell it short. When I say just the mom, it's kind of, you know, it's not to be negative about it. It's actually the best thing in the world. It's just me speaking casually, I suppose. Well, we've, I don't know.

In today's world, growing up, there was a lot of stay-at-home moms when I was a kid. Now, you know, I'd take a look at even my family. My wife works full-time alongside me to, you know, it's the world has become a, well, tough place to live off one income for sure. And, uh, and, and I mean, all women are, are, are empowered, I think might be the word to get a job, have a career and, and go that way. There's nothing wrong with it. It's just, um, you know, it's, it's different from 30 years ago, let alone a hundred years ago and certainly there was different things going on back then. So I think it's, you know, I just, to me, I, I, I heard

it and I was like, wow, man, I think that's pretty cool. Um, because I mean, to, It's very cool. It requires a lot of sacrifice and things that you need to alter in your life, but it's worth it because at the end of the day, you're having an influence upon your children. And you're raising them the way that you see fit. And you're also giving them love and support and guidance from the most important person in the world, which is their parent. You know? Listen, when you think about how much time, and I'll use myself, how much time I'm aware. from my kids, both my wife and I. We put a lot of trust into a select group of people to make sure that they're taught things that we're not around for, right? And so, you know, I certainly understand what you're talking about. When you say sacrifice, I may be dumb, but I was curious. What did you mean by sacrifices to be a stay-at-home mom? financial

definitely financial if you're career oriented 100% I've been through circumstances where I've worked full time and because I'm on my own with my daughters I hardly saw them

at one point I was working seven days a week and I was really happy about what I was doing and hoping to make advancements in that area that I was working but the sacrifice was not worth the money or the time investment. You know, so when I say sacrifice,

I mean that you have to question whether or not a career is important to you. More income coming in justifies what you lose in the process, especially being on my own with them, you know? So it was just, it was the right thing to do. That's, that makes your situation even more complicated. you're not with your husband then or your ex sorry i don't know how to i don't mean to step on landmines by any stretch it just uh so you're a single mom to top it off yes and on top of that i had already spoke to the social worker about that and she went behind my back to orchestrate a

situation where i had to surrender his phone number and he was called into the hospital and basically said, you know, I'm going to sign off on it. He was at the hospital in the beginning because I told him he has a right to know his daughters in the hospital. And he came and he was there. And, you know, at first he wanted nothing to do with any of their testing. But things changed. Um, I, I don't know how to ask it, Andrea. So I'll try him. Here I'm going to have word vomit is what I call it. because to me, I'm just curious. Was it, was it, you and your ex, was it like an ugly separation? Or was it amicable?

I don't know how better to say that. The reason I'm just curious of when they start talking behind his back, was he at least telling, like, was it like, this is what they're saying and you guys have a relationship that way? Or is it very confrontational? It was very, very strange. I wouldn't say confrontational because we didn't really get to that point, but there was no constructive communication.

There was no desire to share. Like this is, it's a bit of a personal topic, but it was strained. It was very, very difficult. And he was very much in agreeance with them, and I was not. Yeah, that's, I appreciate you being open to, my curiosity because we've certainly heard well throughout COVID couples that are separated and had kids that you know hit the vaccination age you know where they could be vaccinated. We saw courts rule with the parent that wanted to get the kid vaccinated and that made

shockwaves that made shockwaves everywhere and I was just like wow you got to make sure you are on the same page because that is like wrong, right, indifferent. Everyone's going to have their idea on that. I'm just like, that's crazy to me, right? How much you talk about strain. Imagine having something so fundamental as a child's safety at stake and parents going to the courts and everything else. I was like, that, I feel for that, that both sides, like, I feel for the mom and the dad, I guess is what I'm getting at. And more so maybe even for the kid, because, I mean, mean, what a what a place to put all of our families in Canada into where that's where we're getting to.

I know. It's a very difficult situation. And I can tell you because I've experienced it firsthand. But having said that, Bella's father agreed to not vaccinating her, which was amazing. And we decided, like, even from the day of birth, I did not give her the vitamin K shot. They really wanted me to. But I didn't want any injections. whatsoever. And if they insisted that the vitamin K was that important, I told them they could

administer it to her orally. So, you know, there are options. You just have to ask what the options are and you have to seek out alternatives. And you have to understand why it is that they're utilizing the things that they're using because then you can come up with a plan to have an alternative. So luckily... Oh, I was going to say, and you got to have the confidence to advocate for yourself and your children and, you know, those ones that you love. And that's a skill in itself. So my hat's off to, Andrew, because most people don't like confrontation and don't have the ability to speak through what they're actually thinking, feeling.

Maybe they haven't even done the research to understand that, you know, this is what I'd like to do. And so on the flip side, the doctors and nurses don't get, you know, just everybody does it. Just do it. Everybody does it. everybody does it i was talking to my sister tasha about this last night funny enough and we were talking about this very topic i'm saying to her it's more about conviction it's it's not confidence so much as when you're when you have conviction in something you are more likely to stand up for

that because it's something you believe in and all three of my kids none of them have been vaccinated and it's because i researched it and i taught myself a lot of things and i wasn't uncomfortable with the potentiality of any risk. It didn't matter if it was 0.01%. I wasn't comfortable with it. I should have that choice at the end of the day. Likewise, when I was in the hospital, I should have total informed consent

because that is the basis of informed consent is you must be informed to therefore consent. And I was not only not informed well, they stripped me of my consent. Well, let's talk about it. Your daughter is Bella or Isabella or both? Isabella? Both.

And she's nine months old? Nine months, yeah. Well, lead us through it. I've been dancing around getting to it. I just, I wanted, you know, for me and for the audience, to get a feel of who Andrea is. And certainly appreciate you being willing to share such personal details and open up to us a little bit this morning

because I, I, uh, when it comes to kids in my family, uh, the audience certainly knows a lot, but I try to, uh, I try to, not shield, but I try, you know, that's my personal, you know, I try to protect it, I guess as much as I can. I let them in on a lot, but at the same time, I get, uh, that I'm doing something uncomfortable here this morning and I appreciate you, uh, being willing to share. In that all being said, let's talk about Isabelle. How does this all come to fruition? Lead us through the story and yeah, I appreciate you just sharing this morning. Well, I just wanted to say that in order to make change, you have to share.

You know, there's nothing that I'm uncomfortable talking about. I might pass on saying details of something, but in order for us to become a better society and actually understand each other, we have to not be afraid to have difficult conversations. So as for myself, I don't really talk about it. myself much, but I'm a nutritionist. I also studied nutritional supplementation for disease management and prevention. And I have a broad understanding of health. And I do not think that it is in our best interest to be using chemicals as a way to boost our immune system or to defend

ourselves against disease. I just, I cannot, I can't agree with it. I'm not comfortable with it for these reasons. I can't agree with it. And I should have the ability to make the choice based on logic and reason. I think when you when you when you put it that way and I would say that the longer the last stretch carries on or carried on and they continue to stick to the narrative. I think it just becomes more evident to a lot of people that it no longer makes. any sense. It's more exposing for them the longer they hold steadfast to what they're talking about. And I don't know. I just think more and more people are starting to open their eyes to like,

maybe there is a different way because like what they're doing is like, well, pure insanity in my eyes. But certainly I think more and more people are starting to pay attention to it. What I think is insane is that if there are known side effects to all medications, you should have the freedom of choice as to whether or not you want to take on those potential risks. And as a parent, you should definitely be able to exert that authority over your child. You know, if you're being told this could have potential side effects, you're not being told the doctor's brain. You'd actually have to read the medical.

literature and do your own research to understand. But if there is any potential of side effects, I think it's in our human right to be able to decline that because any other ways, coercion. Well, I mean, a father of three young ones, I mean, they're in your care until, you know, in Alberta, Saskatchewan, until they're 18, 19, right? Like, I mean, high school. And then at some point they turn into young adults and they're going to fend for themselves like we all have and you know it's kind of like the bird letting them fly from the nest eventually it happens to us all when they're young i mean when they're in your care yeah i just it's it's funny i don't think so you would think so i mean geez there's some strange stuff going on in our country right now where

where uh things being said or uh choices being allowed to really really young people And it's not just Canada. There's a lot of different places in, honestly, almost the British Commonwealth, you know, like the, the British Empire that once was right now where a lot of choices are being given to mature minors that make zero sense, like zero. And a lot of choices that are being pulled from parents that I think everyone can sympathize with or understands or at some level goes that. isn't right because there's one thing a lot of us share in commonality it's it's having it's you know raising kids and the responsibility that comes with that it's a responsibility but it's also a learning process you know it takes time for you to learn everything you know um well it's because you can't you can't read a book on parenting at all it's like you know you don't My wife and I are joke because we got a dog, right, before we ever had kids, right? Let's get, oh, yeah, that's going to really prepare you.

It doesn't prepare you. There's nothing that can prepare you for having a child at all. And it's one of the greatest learning curves in the world and one of the most stressful and a bunch of other words there that probably every parent would understand. But yes, sorry. It's a fact. when I talk to people such as yourself, like I try to keep it casual.

Like I'm not very good at doing interviews per se. So I don't know. I'm just being able to talk really about. I was going to say this. You know, I think the audience would agree. I think you seem pretty natural at it. You know,

I've had, I don't know if you're hockey, fall in hockey that much. But do you know the name Grant Fear? No. Grant Fear was an NHL goalie who won multiple cups with the Emmington Oilers, and I was rather excited to have him on once upon a time. And he said two-word answers over and over and over again.

Grant, you won the Stanley Cup. How was it? It was good. Okay. You were in a dressing room with Wayne Grexky and Mark Messier and all these greats. What was the party like? It was pretty good. And so when you say, I don't know, I try and keep casual. that's all I'm about. And I think you're doing, I think you're doing spot on.

That's my thoughts. Great. Good. Yeah. Well, I mean, these are important conversations to have. It's not just about what Bella, like what my daughter and I went through.

There's so much that needs to be talked about. And people need to not be afraid to speak up and say what they think and feel. Because that's how we make change and making a change. January 5th, I'm in a Zoom call with a freedom-minded lawyer who wants to invite people who have circumstances or anybody in general. So we can talk about options for going forward. We can do to make some change from the situation that happened with myself and many others in this country. Who's the lawyer? Would I recognize the name? Her name is Rebecca. Her last name. I'm not 100.

100% sure what that is. Tasha told me, but it's since forgotten. But I will send you. Yeah, sure. If you want to send me the, even the invite, what I can do for anyone that's, you know, listens to this and wants to participate or click into the Zoom or whatever, I could probably post it or text me folks and we can get that sorted one way or another. And I'll let Andrea send it out to me if they're wanting to see. You know, you mentioned somewhere back, and we've been dealing with a little bit of glitchy audio this morning, so it's forcing my brain to really pay attention, which is a good thing. That Isabella had RSV, which has been very prominent this fall.

Can you, like, so you got a sick nine-month-old, you take her to the hospital, and what happens from there? So essentially, I just went thinking it was the flu, which it was. It was influenza, RSV, and pneumonia. So it's a combination of the three. And they had said to me, she looks very tired, lethargic, and she looks like she's stiff and has some rediddy. So that was the basis for them to do all the testing on the meningitis. There was no other signs or symptoms of meningitis. There was nothing else that was particularly.

particularly suggesting complicated meningitis, which is what they were looking for. So I think because I've told the story so many times, I'm missing some of the details with you. But eventually, they kept pressing me to do all these tests saying that she had meningitis. The MRI came back negative. The CT skin came back negative. The blood cultures. She was sitting in the hospital bed, jumping up in her. at play here. I don't believe that's correct. And I gave them all my reasoning. I suggested

alternative treatments such as just following the entire antibiotic schedule that they wanted to do for complicated meningitis. And then I also suggested that we go home and because she was thriving and well. And I said at any sign of any regression, I'm back here and I will sign whatever you need. If I don't show up, I'm liable for that as negligent. Sure, no problem. But she doesn't have it. So they called child protective services on me. They also threatened me with the parental guardianship trustee.

And pretty much pushed me into a corner once her dad got involved and said, you either sign the consent form or we're going to escalate things from here. And in all honesty, I wish they had a, I wish that I had been. more time to process it all because I would have liked that. Because what they did, oh my goodness, that actual moment in the operating room, like in the Purcell room, sorry, was hell on earth. None of the doctors in there even knew the conversations that had happened upstairs and that I was against multiple things.

At the end, they only took her father's signature and they didn't even need mine. So they threatened me for nothing. But the way that I see it is that's illegal because I didn't sign anything. And they insisted that they need a signature. So it's very, very, very, very concerning. Is this over timeline? Is this over the course of a day that this happens? Or how long were you in the hospital with Isabella?

Okay, so this was over a course of 14 days, but it was in the hospital for 18, because after they got the way with the testing, I needed to wait for the results, right? So it was a totality of the 18 days, but it was really 14 days of just it getting progressively worse. And when it happened quickly, and they were pressing me and telling me, oh, now child protective services is they involved. and we're going to call the public guardian trustee, things escalated very rapidly that it was hard to keep up with what moves they were going to make next. So I hardly slept. It was an awful experience. I hardly slept because I was researching, thinking, trying to come to clear, minded decisions.

So, you know, I don't know if you've heard of the Willow case, but she was put in jail for the same reason. And I was actually not aware of that until later when Tasha had told me about this. but I already know that if you do anything outside of their system or their protocols, they're going to make you out to be a criminal, calling Amber alerts on her and taking her child away and forcing this situation. Like this should be concerning to everybody, even if you don't agree with my position on things, which is fine.

We don't have to agree. We have to come down to what is ethical, what are rights, and what is informed consent actually mean? And what do we stand for as a population for what we will and will not allow to happen to us? You know? For the listener, Willow's been on Kid Carson's show. And she's had a similar story play out in BC.

And she actually got picked up, I believe, in Alberta and taken back. And she tried to run with her son, right? I believe it's her son. And they got caught. There was an amber alert put out for her. And it was very similar to Andrew's story here. She didn't want a procedure done. The same procedure, I believe.

Yes? Yeah, I'm 100%. Yeah, yeah. It's just that I refused to spinal tap and they only had a short window to do it with Isabella because they were already treating her as though she had meningitis. There was no testing done at that point. Obviously, they do that for good reason. But even if I had it done this final tap, the probability of it coming back is a false negative.

Or, well, false negative. Yeah, it's pretty high because she was on antibiotics. So it's very likely that they could have gotten that testing and said, okay, we need further testing because that was negative because we've been given the antibiotics. So it's a very peculiar situation. And when we get the details of it, I think that it could be managed much differently. And I worked with the doctors very closely. Like I told them everything I was thinking and feeling and they were listening, which is positive, but they were also insisting that I was wrong.

And they were doing everything that they could to testing. And I just didn't want to put her under sedation and I didn't want to use gadolinium. I even proposed the idea, like do the MRI, but just bundle her so she can't move. Like, they'll just wrap the baby. And that way the baby can still in the MRI. And they said, well, she's a little too old for that. And I said, okay, don't use the gadolinium. And they were like, well, we have to.

So I was trying my best to give solutions and find alternatives. But there came a point where they weren't listening. They just wanted to force the matter. And they did. For the two weeks, 18 days that you're in the hospital. Are you in the hospital? Like you have a room. You're not leaving.

You're stuck there. Like where you weren't, you couldn't get. Sorry, I'm just, every time I've been with one of the three when they've been born. And I think our longest stint was five days. I think parents can agree on this.

You start to go a little bit star crazy being in a whole, a hospital. Your first one, you want to stay in there longer because you're so terrified of leaving the building with your kid because you're like, I got to change it. I got to learn on the fly now. But after you've had your,

first, you know, like being stuck in a hospital, I don't, I think anyone who's had even a remote experience of multiple days, it starts to like, you kind of get a little star crazy. So for 14 straight days, 18 straight days, you're in the hospital not allowed to go anywhere. Okay. So I was allowed to go somewhere. I just wasn't allowed to take my daughter with me. So because she's only nine months old, I spent the majority of time with her. There were times that I have two other daughters. There were times that I needed to step out. But in that 18-day stay, very, very rarely did I step outside of the actual hospital.

I was just taking a little break here and there. But that was inside the hospital, you know? Also, luckily, I had a lot of visitors. And I just want to be very clear with this. If meningitis was the true concern, they should not have allowed visitors in there. It's a highly contagious disease. And I have two other daughters that aren't vaccinated, and they never acquired it.

Like, I was so certain that this isn't what we were dealing with. And all of the things surrounding it suggested that as well. Like, if you're dealing with a highly contagious disease, why are you not saying you can't have any visitors? You know, you would assume that room would be on total quarantine. Well, it wasn't. So there's a lot of layers to this. And I'm not just sitting here like a crazy person going,

oh, I know better she didn't have meningitis. I felt like I educated myself enough even prior to this to know what to look and what to understand is the summary of the situation. So, I mean, yeah. Well, I can sit here and safely say to you, I don't think you sound crazy whatsoever. I think being in a hospital is going to vote to say hotel folks, being in a hospital for that long would be hard on your mental state, especially with a kid and the stress and everything else. that that would wear it on a person. When you, here's something I've never, I guess I've heard of child protective services, obviously. I've never heard of public guardian trustee.

What is that? Either of I. So basically what it is, it's the mediation institution that will come in and talk to both parents and basically say, and this is on the limited information that they gave me about this, by the way. But they'll basically say, okay, what's your? reasoning for or against and they try to find out who has their logic, I suppose, or who's in agreeance with the hospital. And then from there, I believe they can seek after court orders and other means of bypassing the parents to actually get it done. So the information that

gave me was incredibly limited. But it happened so fast. I wish I had a vast more. I wish I had been like, yeah, bring them in, let's do this. I was definitely pro that for quite some time, but I was speaking with a friend of mine, and we were discussing all of this. And I, you know, I said, okay, well, this is not what I want, but I'm agreeing to sign the papers for reasons beyond my control. And then when we get down there, they're like, no need.

We don't need you to sign anything. And they used gas, and they used the Anisica and the gadolinium. They did the gas they said they were not going to use. They ended up using it. And I started crying in that room. Like I, the words cannot express what happened in that room. I guess I'm sitting here in a little bit tongue tied because I'm going, the sense of helplessness that you're describing as a parent who has young kids.

Yeah. Well, I feel for you. I don't, I don't, that those are pretty shallow words, but I, I guess I just, I hear what you're saying. I'm like, I, you know, like,

you're almost, uh, put in a position now where you're going to be, I don't know if terrified is the right word, but along that lines of the health system, because if you don't agree with what they're saying, then especially with, I mean,

like, yeah, yeah, there's a level of concern about everyone to the hospital again, because you know that at any turn, you can lose your rights. And it's very concerning to me. But here's the flip side.

If you don't do that, you could be held liable for negligence. Like I was speaking to Glenn Young yesterday. We did an interview. He was telling me that there was a case of parents who were jailed for negligence because their child got meningitis and passed from it. And, you know, I know, I know, a girl personally that reached out to me in Instagram, and she was telling me her story about how

her son was not gaining meat. They called it failure to thrive. They called child protective services and took her son and had all these procedures done to him without her signature because they got a court order and child protective services took over decision making. So, you know, like, it's almost like what Willow did, she ran because she didn't know what to do. Does that make her wrong or a bad person? This is a conversation that needs to happen. I think so. I think it's your instincts kicking in. I've got to get here. What people don't realize is there's a whole institution behind the scenes that is set up to get you one way or another. And it's unreal. I didn't even realize this until I was put in this position. Sean, I just wanted to tell you that my phone's at 1%. So for the listener, I think this may be a first, Andrew, where I've recorded part.

We had a couple of technical issues. And so then we've waited a full day to record the second part. So I listened to the entire interview this morning. I'm like, how am I going to start this all over again? Because it, you know, to the listener, they're not going to have the break. They're going to be listening along. all of a sudden, it's going to come to an abrupt day. And then we're going to hop back into it.

So I know. I was feeling like that too. I was like how to restart the conversation. Sorry. I guess then what I would say is at what point are you sitting in the hospital and your mama tail feathers are raised of like, I don't like where this is going. Okay. Well, that's, it's a little tough to say exactly when because.

As soon as they said it was meningitis, my alert went up because I was thinking meningitis, I don't know about that. Like it just for all the reasons we discussed yesterday and there's more to it, obviously, but it just wasn't sitting well. When my defenses started to go up and I felt very concerned is when they were asking for testing and I wasn't comfortable with that testing. and I felt like they were not supporting the understanding of the process for a parent. Like, it's informed consent, right? That requires some level of information to inform yourself. I felt like the more that I asked questions, the more I was kind of seen as like an opposition or difficult to them,

but it was truly just to get the necessary information that you need to make a proper decision, right? So as soon as they started talking about the spinal tap, I was like, oh my God, I can't even believe this is happening. But you're concerned for your child. So you're considering all options. So there was never a point where I wasn't willing to talk and understand and come to the best possible, like, decision. But when I had spoken to the infectious disease doctor, we had talked about the antibiotics and how they had already started using them just as a like precautionary measure. And when I was talking to him, I said, okay, well, you know, if you're already using the antibiotics, how do you know that when you take the spinal tap, like the fluid from the spine,

that you're actually going to get proper results? He had actually said to me, well, that's a good question. And it's very valid. And I was like, okay, so why are we doing it then? You know, so then the whole team came, we had a discussion. And I said, I'm not okay with it. And believe it or not, they actually kind of dropped it pretty quick because I had asked really important questions that were relevant to whether or not the test was even going to show up positive. So that was great. But then because they couldn't do that, they wanted to further it with the MRI. But she already had a CT scan. And she also had two blood cultures. All of it. came back negative. So this, when they started bringing up the MRI, then I got really uncomfortable because I was like, she was sitting in the hospital bed right beside me starting to become her normal self.

Like she was totally fine. And she only progressively got better from there. I feel, you know, as you go along here, I'm like, okay, so what were they really worried about? Like they were just terrified of meningitis, even though everything they'd done up until that point, didn't show it. Well, this is, yeah. And they put it on antibiotics to stop even if it was meningitis. So what were they looking for? Well, here's the big question.

And like, I would assume that for them in large part, it's not assuming liability if they don't conclusively say that it's not meningitis. But I even said to them, like, I'm willing to sign whatever you want me to sign. I will be back here the second I see anything wrong with her, you know, but that's a good question. I don't have the answer to. Why is it that even though she's sitting in the hospital crib, playing, laughing, and thriving, the matter is being pressed even further. And they were trying to rule out complicated meningitis, but the symptoms that she had of tiredness and stiffness, even though I didn't see it as like a concerning stiffness,

I just don't think they were enough to substantiate the claim to complicated meningitis. So, you know, you're sitting there as a parent, seeing your child perfectly happy and well, and you're just thinking, how is this happening? And how come I have no say in this and no ability to even discuss alternative options? So the team comes,

you talk through, you ask some great questions. They go, wow, actually, those are smart questions. They leave it along. But then they come back the next day and now they want an MRI? Well, essentially. Whether or not it was the next day, I do not know because hospital time is an alternate reality. Yes, it is. Yes, it is.

It was 18 days of being in that hospital. all. And there were many, many days, especially closer to the end that I did not sleep. That's how much this was bothering me. So I don't, I know that they had come back with a proposal for the MRI, like, pretty soon after I said no to the spinal tap. I just don't know exactly when, you know. And then with an MRI, what is the, from your eyes, why, as a. apparently like, I don't want to do this. Like what's what is it about an MRI that had, um, you know, once again, your tail feathers up? Like what, what were you like? I don't like that. Well, I would have no problem with the MRI if it wasn't for the fact that she's nine months old and

had to be sedated for it. And also the utilization of the contrast agent. Um, if we were just talking about an MRI with myself, I wouldn't have to be sedated for that because I'm old enough to, stay still. If Isabella hadn't have needed the sedation or the contrast agent, I would have absolutely said, yeah, sure, do it. I'm not concerned with the MRI. So it's surrounding the sedation and the gadolinium. Right. And we talked about gadolinium in the first part, didn't we? And the side of, well, once again, you go back to the informed consent. Once you start reading the fine print of a whole bunch of things, you start to realize, I mean, maybe this isn't needed, especially, you know, when I go back to what you say, like it almost feels like there's just

all the checkbox, yep, okay, this is checked, this is checked, this is checked, we're giving her antibiotics anyway, just in case, but we better check these last three boxes, even though at this point, you know, um, well, lead me through then the final, the final, uh, if you don't mind, uh, you know, the final day or so of, of this, um, um, um, um, um, um, the, um, the, the final day or so of, of this, um, I don't know, saga, episode. I don't know what to call it. You probably have your own words for it. Nightmare. Nightmare. Thank you. Yes. Sorry. Yep. Yeah. I mean, I assume, you know, having this conversation, maybe a lot of people might not think it was a nightmare. But for me, it was because I felt like I was progressively being stripped of any right to decide what is best for my daughter,

especially seeing her and playing with her and she's completely herself. And giving any exposure to any kind of chemicals, especially because I haven't vaccinated her at all or any of my other kids. It wasn't something that I wanted for them. So with 100% certainty, if I knew that she had something wrong with her, I would do whatever it takes to make her well. But when you're seeing your daughter thriving and well and beyond great in the hospital and you're being told, well, she's probably not okay, like it could be complicated meningitis. It's just a really difficult thing to process. So the last day, they basically said to me, her dad is agreed to sign off and we need you to do the same or we're going to. going to call the public guardian trustee. I wish they had have given me more information on that

because I would have gone down that road. But they expected me to make a decision really quickly and I said to them, this isn't something I want to do, but I'm willing to sign for reasons beyond my control. Like at that point, I felt like it didn't matter what I do. They're going to force the issue and possibly even take my child away because of the CPS involvement. So, you know, you're just sitting there not even believing that you're in this circumstance that you would have never thought in a million years could happen. It's just shock. So then the day of the MRI, they took her down to the room. And there was the anesthesiologist there, the radiologist, and then several other AIDS, like nurses.

and that was probably the worst part. They told me that I could watch from a window. I wasn't allowed to do that. They told me there would be no gas involved. They used gas. And then lastly, they told me, we don't even need your signature. So it was just, I never cried that hard in my life.

And I said to them, like, I've been totally lied to. And I even had a witness there with me who, was there during everything and has said, like, if you need anything, I'm there to say that is exactly what they told you. So, yeah, I had never cried so hard in my life. And it even turned into a fight with the anesthesiologist because he told me at one point, I'm not doing this. It's over, done. And I had to say to him, you have to do it because I was afraid that if he gave up and I didn't sign and all the stuff that was going on that I'd be going and facing even worse problems, you know? So I just said to him, like, I need you to do it. It's just I don't want this.

And they told me that I could watch and there would be no gas. So I was able to watch up until the point that she had the IV in, which is why they were using the gas. And then they escorted me out of the room and the doors closed and they were like smoky. And that's it. I had to leave my daughter for about an hour and a half with no way to even watch. Oh man. I um, well, I don't have any words, you know, uh, it's one of those, um, the helplessness that you must have felt is, uh, something that no parent should ever feel, right? That's, I mean, we're, we've got to protect our kids and, uh, at the very least, I should have been able to, to observe behind a window, like they said.

Like, they closed those doors, and there was no way for me to even see what was happening. Like, are you doing further things that you told me upstairs, you wouldn't do, like the gas? They told me it would just be the anesthetic, which was prophylol. And it would just be the gadolinium. And then all of a sudden, I'm saying, you can't use that gas. and then the doctor's saying, well, then I'm not doing this. But I was told upstairs that wouldn't be involved. So I just felt like completely put on the spot and like I had been lied to.

I definitely was lied to. Andrea, I don't know if I ever asked you this. Where are both? Is this? Hamilton. Hamilton. Yeah, Hamilton, McMaster. Yeah. Like, do you feel like, I don't know, I go in my brain, I'm like, is this something that's Ontario?

Do you think this is Canada-wide? I know it's Canada-wide because since talking about this, so many people have reached out to me on Instagram, and they've been saying, oh, my God, I have a similar circumstance. I've talked to so many women. There was one man who did send a message, but particularly it's been women. women. And they either currently have their kids in some sort of program, like one of the ladies, two of them actually, but one in particular that I talked to in detail. Her son has cystic fibrosis and constantly has to go. And she was saying, like, I'm looking for alternatives. I'm trying to get him out of this and seek other options. And she feels like she's stuck there.

And she's even a little apprehensive to talk about it because she had said to me, like, thank you for speaking up. And I was just like, there's no thanks required. It's, it's something you do when you feel like it's the right thing to do to let other people know. Like, I would have known this if I didn't go through it, you know? Yeah. Well, and then it's it's on journalists and different forms of media to get the message out there so that people can understand. And then we as a culture, we as a people can change it, right? Like, I mean, well, you hope so. But to be honest, I think this is the first interview that I've done that I feel less comfortable.

Because a friend of mine recently said to me, hey, you better be careful with all that stuff you're doing because it might be used against you. And I never really thought about that up until then. But after he said that, I started thinking like, what is freedom and what is freedom of speech? if I can't even talk about something I went through without even having that cross my mind. Because prior to that, I'm not a fearful person. Like it doesn't, that those things don't bother me. But obviously what he said to me kind of made me go, like, what the heck? Like, we saw what happened with, like, the freedom convoy and vaccines.

And if you oppose, like, the general consensus, it's an uphill battle, you know? Although I agree with you, I would say, don't let that fear take hold of you. I believe that, I guess what I'm going to try, like, there's a community that's forming in different parts, wherever you're at, you know, here, there, everywhere across the world that are, that agree with everything you've said and will hold, I think, those forces at bay. that's what the freedom convoy did, right? Like they drove to Ottawa and for the rights of every man, woman and child in Canada, and then it decided to go worldwide because how couldn't you stare at was going on? They went and said no more. And I think that message has resonated a long way.

And when you talk about, you know, speaking out and what are the ramifications? to not speak out and I mean this is a bit of word salad here this morning, Andrea, but to not speak out, I mean, is a different type of future that can be just as terrorizing. Oh my God, I completely agree with you. It's it's so frustrating to me that, you know, we believe we have freedom of speech. But when you do talk about things, there's any kind of reservationist. to what you actually think and feel and actually sharing that message with other people. I'm very open about talking about anything.

I just, this experience has taught me that it's very complicated. It's, you know, there's so many layers to so much of the things that we're fighting for and trying to stand up for. And there's opposing views and arguments. And it's like, I should be able to just sit here and speak my truth. tell you exactly what I went through without any concern for what anyone would have to say. But there's been some negative things, definitely, you know. And it doesn't bother me.

It's just I'm sitting back thinking, like, how do we effectively make change? How do we actually make change so that people don't have to feel the way that I felt? Like, it was, I don't think words can describe exactly how bad it was. but a depiction of it would essentially be when I was crying so hard when they were telling me I had to leave that room and couldn't even watch. It felt like a mother's not worse nightmare, but pretty damn close. Yeah, well, you're powerless to the figures at play, so to speak, I guess. You know, when it comes to freedom of speech, freedom of anything, freedom. You know, I forget the quote.

I was trying to think of it. And I just, for some reason, it won't come to me. But, you know, freedom isn't free. It just isn't. And that's a problem. But I think it's a lesson that's been learned throughout time, right? And I think we're all learning that valuable lesson right now. And you hope that more and more of the population, which I believe is happening,

is cluing into that. And then, you know, they're going to become or we're going to become more active. And it's going to create for a brighter future, not a darker one. It's just, you know, I mean, for, I don't know about you, Andrew, but for my lifetime, life has been what I believed pretty good, you know, just moving along, didn't know any of this stuff was going on. And maybe it was there before and probably it was. And I certainly had listeners.

but the last two years, going on three years, has been steroids in the arm, so to speak, and it is just like, what is going on? And when you're in the middle of a shitstorm, pardon the French, it's pretty hard to put a roof over the house to stop the rain from coming in, right? Like, you don't do that. You're supposed to build the roof, and then when the storm comes, you got something to protect you, kind of thing. And so people have been doing it on the fly.

And the problem is it just takes time. And then instead of you're preparing for, I don't know, like the COVID stuff that's coming down. And then all of a sudden, Andrew goes to the hospital with her daughter about a flu. And you get hit with a haymaker from the right side. And you're reeling. And it's just like, oh, okay, and there's that. Oh, and there's that. And there's that.

And I just think, I guess what I think is this is why it's important to, this is what I'm trying to do. I'll give you my idea and you do with it what you will. I'll let the audience do with it will. Here in Lloyd, I've started with a couple others. We've started a men's group based around an initial idea. I'm a part of a book club too. And we started a book club about four years ago. And the idea was better husbands, better fathers.

Very simple, kind of pie in the sky. But it was just like, this is really important. You can't fucking mess it up. Okay. It is. Yeah. And so you fast forward to now and I'm like, okay, I think we need people to be more confident in articulating why they think certain things are wrong.

Because if you don't talk about it, then we just allow it to happen because we can't like get the thoughts out of her head. It happens to me all the time on this podcast. I'm like, what am I actually trying to say? Anyways. Yeah. So now we formed a men's group and it's slowly evolving. And I mean slowly because it's like I don't know how to explain exactly what it is, but the general

consensus is the same. Yeah. Better husbands, better fathers. Let's show our kids what it means to be a man and let's show her daughters what it is to look for in a man. If that makes sense, I think that's pretty. All it is is the basics, right? I feel like it's nothing rocket science.

And then we're going to stick a group of guys in a room where you can have it out over any subject you want so that when you come out of there, you feel confident to say, what's on your mind and you can articulate it. So when stupidity hits, you can be like, no, that makes zero sense and this is why. Right. Yeah. And I feel like it's a lost talent in our society because we, we just haven't been doing it enough. And every guy I talked to about it goes, that makes a lot of sense. I'd like to be a part of that. And it's happening more and more. And so, and I've seen different men's groups forming now in Manitoba. And I just, I just see it as like, okay, so where are we at six months from now, a year from now, when Andrew tells a story and a group

of men and women go, uh-uh, we ain't doing this anymore, right? That's my thought process. Like, you mean we're not having these type of conversations? Is that what you mean? Sorry. What do you mean? Sorry. Or like when you said, when you said like hypothetically they could be like, oh, we're not doing this. Do you mean like that people are? I mean when when Andrea calls. puts out a call and says, I can't even be in the room. To me, Sean Newman can't race to Hamilton. So, but do you mean in the context of fear or like, what do you mean? Oh, um, I mean when it comes to things going on in one's community. Yeah, like you mean speaking up speaking up, um, putting your,

your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, your, you're, getting involved in one's community and protecting it, protecting the kids that are in it, and the families, you know, and trying to be role models for what we want in society, you know? Yeah, well, you know, I don't know how familiar you are with Jordan Peterson, but he talks about this and he says, we need to be willing to have the difficult conversations. And, you know, I believe strongly that you have to be able to have uncomfortable conversations and you need to be willing to be wrong. And you need to be open to debate and difference of opinion in order to come to any truth.

And I think that that's ultimately what we need is we need people from all walks of life, different educational backgrounds and opinions and talking about what is the variable here between your opinion and mine and how do we come to a peaceful middle ground. Yes. And I think that these conversations, would enable us to move forward as people that are not hateful or against each other because you have a better, greater understanding and potentially more empathy and compassion to opposing views. You can agree to disagree. It doesn't have to be my way or your way.

It has to be an understanding of both ways so that you can come to decisions based on ethics and justice and morals and essentially create laws that are just, you know. So, you know, there's a, there's a lot of considerations with that, but I'd say you need to be able to talk. Oh, yeah. I figured, yeah, in order to be able to think you have to risk being absolutely, not only being offensive. Not only do you have to risk being offensive, but you also have to risk being wrong.

You have to be open to potentially. being wrong, you know? That's what's so important of the idea of bringing a group of, for me, bringing a group of men together to have open frank discussion because if you spit out an idea, it's okay if it's wrong. I mean, it could be uncomfortable, but like that's how we wrestle with ideas. Jordan Peterson is the reason I do the podcast. You know, it's like the amount of times his name comes up. is not laughable.

It's very like, that makes sense, right? Well, he's incredibly influential. And one thing that I admire about the work that he does is that he's very articulate and everything that he's proposing is well thought out.

And he's making discussions that enable us to have a greater thinking on the totality of things, not just something small. You know, like, I just, I think it's amazing. And I think the reason he's so influential is because he's touching on different topics from a psychological perspective that enables us to grow and open up our own minds.

You know, that's my take. Well, it's funny. He's, um, the reason we formed the book club back years ago is because of Jordan Peterson, roughly around Jordan Peterson. He was the one of the first books we read. and certainly saw him in person and everything else. But he talks about it, right? Like he gets a group of men in a room and women there too, for sure.

But he's saying things and he talks about the heads nodding, right? Like, yeah. Yeah, you're saying something that I've been thinking about, but I haven't been able to pull out of my brain. Why is that? Yeah. And he does it so well. And the idea where I'm all back to is, you know, like,

I hope that and this is what I see. I just see more and more groups forming that are starting to understand that there's always going to be problems across the world. And what you can do is, you know,

as Jordan Peterson says, clean up your room, deal with your household, and then hopefully impact your community. And it doesn't, like, that'd be a beautiful thing if that's what happened

across the country. And then you can weather whatever storm comes because you got a strong foundation. And I just, I, I was saying this to a guy earlier today, Andrea. When I say things like this, I go, well, I become a traditionalist? Like, how the heck did I get here? You know, how did I get all the way full circle to where, you know, my roots were, I guess, growing up on the farm? But I mean, it's, to me, I don't see any other way around it. It is the long game. You have to play the long game. And the long game is, you know, taking care of oneself and out of that good things will come. Well, it's also growth in development,

right? The more that you know, especially yourself doing like a podcast, you're going to, you're going to learn more in that way by speaking to people and hearing different stories. So it's, that's going to fundamentally affect you and have a change, right? Yes, 100%. Where do you think, like, for you, when it comes to your daughter, your kids, because you got multiple, it's not like it's, like, it's a very interesting, that, you know, on your third kid, right? Third, third. Yeah. Yeah. How does this fundamentally shift your brain moving forward?

Like, I mean, you already said you don't vaccinate your kids. You know, you're very health conscious. right, what you put in your body, that type of thing. Has anything changed for you? Well, I mean, not anything changed. Obviously, things have changed. But, you know, moving forward, where's your head at or what are your thoughts? That's a very hard thing to express because now I don't know how I would feel about going back to the hospital. But I'm also of the awareness that if you don't, there could be other ramifications from not. So I really, I don't know how I feel. I feel disturbed. I feel

like a lack of trust in that institution. But there's also a greater awareness that there's a lot of benefits with having hospitals and all the good things that they do. So it's kind of like the real issue is what are your freedoms and rights and what control can you exert over the well-being of your own child? And what is the extent of that? And these are the conversations that I think this story is going to elicit. Like I told you previously, like we're going to do a Zoom call with a freedom-minded lawyer. And in that, hopefully we'll pull out more of a dialogue as to what we can do for change. but I definitely feel like I would be very anxious if I had to go back to the hospital.

Yeah. That's a tough position to be in, you know? Well, it is because I don't recall if it was you or Glenn Young. I had spoken to him yesterday, but one of these conversations, someone had brought up the two parents that had gone to jail was. Was that yourself? We talked about it briefly, but I believe it was in your conversation, the other conversation that was brought up. I think that's how all these interactions too.

Everything kind of melds together at the point. It certainly does. You know, that's an example of the opposite. If you didn't go to the hospital and somebody says, well, you were negligent. So you're liable for that. So what do you do when you feel like no matter which way you turn, you're going to be. deemed as an unfit parent. Like they wouldn't have called child protective services on me if they didn't have some estimation of my lack of ability to parents. But I'm an excellent mother and I love

my kids and they're happy and thriving. And there was multiple people that came in that room and said, oh my God, your daughter is like so happy. She's so happy and like, oh, can I take her for a walk? and like it was beautiful. And I'll see if I can pull up a picture for you of what she actually looked like in the hospital. So you may very well understand why I was not concerned. In the meantime, if you have anything to say. Yeah.

Well, I go like, you wonder how they went from Fitmother to child protective services. That seems like. because I didn't agree with them. And as soon as I know, but think about that. That right there is a wild statement. You don't agree to somebody.

You drop the nuclear bomb. What a way to get parents to do whatever you want by threatening child protective services. This is her in the hospital. Just chilling, playing. And I have a video. Oh, cutie. Even better. The video is great because you can see that all her faculties are there.

She's jumping up and down. She's playing. She's laughing, interacting. Like, it's just unreal how perfect she was, yet they were insisting. No, we've got to do this testing. And it could be complicated. Do you think, as you talk and you're looking for the video, do you think they expose, well, actually, I don't know the answer to this.

So this is, but heck, that's why the question. you think they expose couples that are not together to child protective services and the force of that and instead of having two that are together and just like, nah, this isn't happening and we're a unit and get out of the way? Or do you think that had nothing to do with it? I'll tell you in a second. Okay. So this is her in the hospital playing. Looks like a healthy baby to me, folks. It's a video of her daughter jumping up and down in a, not a jolly jumper. What do they call those little laugh? Hi.

I don't know what they're called. A saucer or what have you. If you look at that, she's thriving and well. And this is right after the MRI. Sweetheart. Mavanna. Mama. Angel.

Hi. This is me trying to get her woken up from the anesthetic. And this, this just breaks my heart. Sorry. But this is her. right after the thing. As you can see, she looks incredibly unhappy. And it's just like, this is what she looked like immediately after.

So to the, to the listener, if you're not watching the video, if you're just listening, what Andrew is showing is the one where she's trying to wake her up, she's just out cold, essentially, trying to pull her out of the, the whatever, the, the sleeping agent. I just want to show, oh, sorry. No, no, no. I'm just, and then there's a picture of her face, and it just looks like she's frowning.

And, uh, yeah, I, I feel for you. I just want to show you this last one. Like, this is her playing. This is when they're trying to tell me she's near death. And I'll explain that. My sweet girl. But, um, you know, she had said to me, one of the reasons we can't let you go home is because she could die instantaneously. And I was like,

I don't think so. Like I, I am sorry, but she is thriving and well. Like, if there is any sign that would precipitate the worst possible scenario, I'm here immediately. Like, you know, I just, I think it was a huge fear tactic to even suggest that in the manner in which she did. And like, My daughters, like I said, jumping around, playing happy. And it just, the dots were not connecting. And on top of it, like, I had already mentioned to you before, my other daughters aren't vaccinated. If it was meningitis, they more than likely would have gotten it also. And anybody else who was allowed into that room was at risk of exposure.

So there was just too many. So then do you think they exposed the fact you're, uh, a mom by yourself tired you're talking about you know and they just and and so then they they go from zero to 100 and and she's not going to go along with the program let's invite child protective services and to try and you know like like it seems like such a nuclear option to me like it just does because you know I sit here and I'm talking to you andrew now you know we've had a chat yesterday and then today of course and I'm like I don't get the sense of bad mom you know And so you go, to go that far, okay, what are we trying to do?

We're trying to get you to agree so that we don't have to use that. And then on top of that, you go, and they could possibly insinuate when now, see, now I'm speculating. So, folks, this is just me speculating. So Sean's just thinking aloud. But like, with you not being with your husband or the child's father, I know. I feel awkward talking about this, but you get to, um,

they can insinuate that the kids should maybe be with the father instead of like I just, and I go, man, what that's that is a, I mean, obviously that's out of my brain, not theirs. I have no idea what they said to you. I just go to me like that's why you'd push the nuclear button is because you want to do

the testing and you want the mom out of the way. Just let's get the testing done so we can move along with checking the boxes. Yeah, well, in all honesty, everything that they did seem like a tactic to essentially get me to say, you're the doctor, you know best, do whatever you need to do. In my instance, I don't think that it was handled well. I feel like they could have shared more information. There could have been a lot more discussion about alternatives. And essentially, they didn't want to deal with me anymore. So they just said, okay, let's call the dad, get him to sign off, make her think she needs to, too. And I mean,

legally, I'm almost certain that I would have had to sign off to. And they told me that with a witness prison. So they definitely lied to me. But informed consent is, I, Isabella's been in my care since day one. Her dad has not been involved to the level in which I have. Yes, honey. I'm not right now. Please. We'll, we'll talk. talking a few minutes. Okay. We can. No, no worries. I appreciate you giving me some time in your busy day. Certainly, I, uh, uh, I hope I've, you know, done a good job at explaining the story to you. No, no, no, you certainly have. Uh, honestly, I think you've done a great job, Andrea. And I appreciate you being, I said it in the first, the first, uh, you know, half an hour we talked. And I'll say it

Again, I appreciate you being willing to be open and to very, well, I think as a host, I'm always awkward around these situations because it just feels uncomfortable, right? Like to talk about your relationships and then your kids and it's just very personal. And in saying that, that's why I'm really appreciative that you spoke up, that you're giving me some time today to talk about it. And hopefully, you know, share with my audience and convey some of what you've wanted. went through so that they understand what's been happening out there because there's different stories. It's not the first one. And as you've said, you've been reached out to by more people.

And that's pretty tough on parents. Yeah. Well, I just hope that I was able to, you know, give you enough information to be useful. I believe you have. No, I appreciate it. And why don't you go be with your family? And, you know, Merry Christmas. Thank you for happy holidays. Thanks for giving me some. some time and for piecing this together because it's been it's been a little bit we've had our own curveballs thrown at us haven't I know I know well thanks so much I did want to tell you that I sent you the link for the lawyer Zoom call so anybody who's interested can join that particularly anybody who's had something similar and it'll be really interesting to see where that

goes so if you are interested shoot me a text and I can forward it along to you so show notes phone numbers there and we'll get it passed along. Either way, Andrea, thanks for, thanks for hopping on and doing this and appreciate you giving me some time. Okay, thanks so much. Nice talking to you. Okay.