Shaun Newman Podcast - #385 - Greg Hill

Episode Date: February 9, 2023

He's been a pilot for 30+ years and is one of the co-founders of Free 2 Fly.  Let me know what you think Text me 587-217-8500

This is Brian Gitt. This is Ed Latimore. This is Danielle Smith. This is Kristen Nagel. This is Aaron Gunn. This is Vance Crow. This is Quick Dick McDick, and you are listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks.

Happy Thursday. Yeah, we continue to roll on here in 2023. We got an exciting guest again today, and I've been saying this lots, but I didn't plan this. And certainly here over Family Day week or weekend, Got some time with the family, and we're going to make sure that it's only the four shows, so there won't be a Thursday episode that week. But the guests of people, the conversations have been flying as fast as I can handle them here on this side, and it seems that everyone's been holding on on the other side as well,

and I appreciate you being here on a Thursday, and coming along for the ride with me, you know, I got a couple different thoughts before we get on to Greg. So one, we got some open slots when it comes to advertising, sponsoring the show, whatever you want to call it. The Tuesday mashup, we've been talking lots about it. We had AMC electrical start this week. That's been a ton of fun. We're booked into May now, so if you're a business out there looking to have some fun with us on the Tuesday mashup, the years, I don't know, quickly, slowly, whatever you want, but it is filling up. And I've got to be honest, I did not see that coming.

And so if, you know, you're interested, once again, the phone numbers and the show notes. So make sure you just fire me a text, give me a call, and we can explore some conversations. Also, weekdays, we got some open spots, right? We're still looking for a major sponsor on Fridays. And then there's some spots in behind the major sponsor and the tail of the tape. So if you're looking to get some, you know, support the podcast, your business, you like what I'm doing. Once again, in the show notes is the phone number. We'd love to hear from you and we'll see what we can make work.

We got SMP Presents March 18th. I was hoping, like I'm just so close to finalizing the details and opening up ticket sales. That's coming March 18th in Eminton. It's going to have Kitt Carson, Wayne Peters, Byron, Christopher, and Chris Sims. So that's going to be, I'm really, you know, like the last one we did here in Lloyd Minster on the rural urban divide with Quick Dick McDick. you just heard Vance Crow and then Steve Barber. That was a fun night.

Like if you haven't been to one of these yet, they have, they just increasingly, I don't know if the idea is starting to solidify or what, but they've been extremely fun nights. And so mark your calendar, March 18th, that's a Saturday in Eminton.

And tickets are going to be on, I promise here, like ASAP. I'm just waiting on one detail to just finally like sign on the dotted line, you know, and move forward. So as soon as I have that, tickets are going to be on sale.

And finally, I've been getting bugged a lot about a few different things. Okay? So it came up again when I was in Sylvan Lake. You know, how can people, individuals support the show? And I'm uncomfortable by it. And I don't know why. I don't know why. So I thought Thursday, I'll talk about it a little bit.

And then, you know, text me if you got thoughts. If you really don't care, that's fine too. I do have a Patreon account. I do not like it. And the reason I don't like it is a couplefold. You know, like one is the fees that come with it, right? They take a chunk of what you guys donate. And then there's also credit card fees on it.

So now you're getting hit with that. And so like it's like, well, you can bitch you complain about it. At least you're getting some money. It's true. But then the next thing, the logical step that's going to happen, you know, is is the same thing you've seen on PayPal recently, is if you speak or have certain thoughts, et cetera, they're going to eventually remove you.

So long term, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for me. So I hate to promote it. Buy me a coffee, has been another one. And I've kind of been hesitant to go down those. And I guess I've been dragging my feet a little bit. And so what I'm throwing out to all of you wonderful people is if you're like, man, I'd love to support Sean.

But, you know, like, what do we do? Do we just start e-transfering money all over the place? I don't know. Does that make any sense? I don't know. One of the things that's been brought to my attention is value for value. And so I'm slowly dabbling my feet into this world of how, whether it's Bitcoin or whether it's something along that lines, I don't know.

I'm kind of interested to hear what you all have to say. That's why you got your phone, you got the number and the show notes. I'd love to hear what you want, you know? Like Adam Curry was put on my, was put on my, when you find folks put me on Adam Curry. And I've been listening to a bunch of how they, you know, make the listeners, the producers of the show and you pay a certain amount. And all of a sudden, you know, you're kind of in the credits, if you would, for making the show what it is. And I actually, like, I think it's a unique, interesting little idea. But at the same time, if you're all like, now that's stupid and I don't want it,

it's like, well, I was saying this once again, you know, on the weekend that one of the cool things about this show is a lot of the people I interview are directed from what you all want. You guys kind of steer the ship. I might be the captain, but you are definitely helping guide where we're going and who you want me to talk. to and everything else. So I don't know. If you're a business and you want to support, there's the advertising route and I have open slots and I'm happy to talk to anyone and, you know, see where the conversation leads and would love nothing more than to have some different people, different companies supporting what I do. And then there's this value for value. I think it is a very interesting idea. I'm just starting to explore some things and as we move,

move along I'll probably talk a little bit more about it and then just for you know all of you if you think there's an idea that I'm missing or that I need to explore more hit me up I would I would love to hear about it because I'm sitting here and I've been thinking lots about it and I just I don't know what to say I guess I'm trying to I'm trying to slowly work through my thoughts, I guess, on this and give you something that when it finally does come through, you all find a lot of value in it and really want to be a part of it and continue to see and push to the show to continue to grow to, you know, my goal of being, you know, the biggest podcast or biggest show maybe in Western Canada. That's what I want. I want to continue to talk about what all of

you want to hear. And but, you know, on the same token, you know, bills got to be paid and everything else. And so I'm, anyways, I'm kind of rambling now. I just,

I'm looking for your guidance, your help, your thoughts, all of that. And if, if that strikes you, show notes, phone number,

shoot me a text, and let's start a conversation and see where it gets to. Yeah. All right. Let's get on that tale of the tape brought to you by Hancock Petroleum for the past 80 years.

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He's been a pilot for 30 plus years. He's a co-founder of Free to Fly. I'm talking about Greg Hill. So buckle up. Here we go. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. We're joined again by Mr. Greg Hill. So Greg, great to have you back on. Appreciate you having me, Sean. Now, every time you come on, it's something to do with pilots. Obviously, everybody knows you from co-founding Free to Fly. And you're paying attention being a former, well, not you're back flying, aren't you? You're back flying now.

Yes? Yeah, well, that's a story in itself, but I guess a good one for now. We hold everything loosely these days, not just in aviation. I would say society as a whole, but the majority of us are back since about last summer, September, October. Whenever I say that, I like to point out the fact that there's a number who aren't, not just within aviation or otherwise, and I want to recognize those. principled individuals who continue to be unemployed due to their health freedom choices, right?

Well, what's caught your eye? Like, I've read the article, but I guess you're the guy, you're one of the probably many, that are really paying close attention to aviation, airlines, everything in that realm. What's the latest? What's catching your eye as of today? Well, I guess we tend to bifurcate life a little bit these days. So what catches your attention if you're just watching CTV and CBC is a little bit different than if you're digging a little bit deeper. And I guess you're probably referring to the digging a little bit deeper part.

And that's the last time I referred to CBC on here. Well, not in an affectionate manner anyway, right? Which is funny, right? I've appreciated your journey because I went back in your podcast quite a while, quite a ways back when you were primarily just doing the hockey thing, which is entertaining and great. And that seems like a previous lifetime that we all used to enjoy where we could just talk about rubber discs flying around the ice, right? And I've appreciated your journey where you've taken the time to dig deeper and here you and I are conversing about some of that stuff. again. So, because I know CBC, just as a kid, I'm probably no different than you. That was my recollection of CBC. It was hockey night in Canada, right? Anyway, to answer your question,

the main thing that's been popping. And I would say those are, those are still good days. You know, I, we got, we got the all-star break happening, you know, you got, you know, here around oil or talk, you know, it's the trade deadline coming up. You got, you got, you got lots of great things. And there's nothing wrong with it. I've been trying, you know, for the listener, I've been trying. I've been failing at it. And maybe it's because I haven't put as much energy into it as having Greg back on to talk, uh, things that I seem to think matter. But, uh, I would love nothing more than to, you know, like, how old's Don Cherry these days, uh, Greg? I would love nothing more than to have a follow up, uh, sit down with him. He would be,

uh, when, when is he born? He was born in 1934. Jesus. Louise, what would that make him? That would make him 90? No, almost 90. 89? Yeah, yeah. Anyways. That's a side note. That's a side note.

Well, I think it's an important note. I mean, I was just talking about something similar. And there's an aviation flavor to it. But I think what you're saying is there's a deep importance to maintaining some normalcy in life, right? And we're getting diverted from your question. and I'll get back to it. That's all right.

But I like, that's kind of how you roll, right? So certainly. I think it's an important piece and I'll answer it or refer to it in the aviation lingo. So when we're having a crisis in an airplane, be it an engine failure or otherwise, there's a time warn mantra, aviate, navigate, communicate in that order, right? You keep the blue side up, make sure the airplane stays in the sky. Then the next thing is, where are we going? Do we need to divert to a different field, et cetera?

And then the last thing you start dealing with is talking to air traffic control and the flight attendants and the company and let them know what's going on. But I feel like in society nowadays, what we have morphed into is mainly communication and largely consumption of it and consumption of copious amounts of information, all of which is very, very important, but we are at times forgetting the foundational pieces of what I would call aviate. And it depends, I guess, on your personality. For me, that's the foundations of life, faith, family, friends, those type of things.

And they get lost in the consumption of everything from endless articles, which in and of themselves are good, but they're not the foundational pieces of what keeps us right side up. And if we forget those pieces, then we're going to be very ineffective of doing the second one, which is where are we going? Where are we going as a nation? Where are we going as a family? Where are we going as a community? And I think we're losing that because we're focused on this consumption of what I'll call communication.

You know, and here we are creating more of it together. And I do think it's important. But I think your point is very valid is take some time to go and do some of that hockey stuff with your kid, right? Yeah, well, I just think, you know, even the live shows I've been doing, the SMP presents. We did one at the end of 2022, which was a comedy show. I was just like,

I think I need to laugh. And if I need to laugh, a lot of people need to laugh. I think we can take a break from beating the drum to just go and have a, you know, a little bit of laughter. And,

you know, come the Oilers hopefully long playoff run, Sean plans to talk about it a little bit because it actually does mean something to me, and I would love nothing more for them to win a cup. And I'm fist-pumped right now, because I feel like maybe we were in the realm of being there. I'm going to have a whole bunch of texts probably come in saying suck at oilers.

But listen, I go back and I've said this lots. And then Quick Dick and Toosomey actually talked about it on stage. But you want to bring people together from all backgrounds. Daryl Sutter had said it and I really agree with him. And he'd said three things. He'd said church, music, sports, and we added in comedy. and certainly there's probably a few more in there. And at times when you just want to get people all on the same page,

a little bit of laughter, a little bit of cheering and rooting on your team or the competition and different things like that is really healthy. It's healthy for a population, especially when we've all been stressed out and continue to see ineptitude play out on the grand scale here. Right. No, I remember you saying that about Sutter, and it's a point well taken.

Well, and all that being said, tell me about the world of pilots right now. Yeah, so back to your question, five or ten minutes later. So, I mean, one of the biggest things that's playing out, certainly in the social sphere and say what you will about it, there's a lot of attention right now to pilot EKGs in the U.S. they've taken something called PR values, which is essentially a parameter within which you need to fall to be considered healthy to fly. And they quietly extended it back in November. So I won't sit here and pretend to be an expert on PR values and EKGs because I'm not. But when I saw that, I thought, man, it's not the same in Canada.

I did speak to some doctors. We don't use PR parameters. It's essentially the EKG results are analyzed as to whether they're acceptable or abnormal. and then when they're abnormal, then you start dealing with the abnormalities from a medical perspective. But the issue in Canada, I thought it's almost worse because what happened to go back to 2020, so when we were all in that COVID fog of is this really bad or is it not? And we've talked about that before. Transport Canada, and I'll give them some grace with this.

They said, well, hang on a second. Don't come in for your medicals. We'll just extend them, right? if you expired in March, we'll extend them to July or August. And then as it moved forward into later that year, then what you could do is you could actually just test. You still don't show up, don't do your medical, just have your wife sign a piece of paper

and send it to us saying that you're healthy, which is somewhat comical because, I would say a broad part of the demographic, particularly, I don't know, middle-aged men seem to be really bad for it. you got some acre pain and it's like, ah, I'll wait until I'm incapacitated because I don't want to go sit in a doctor's office, right? Pilots are probably worse because you fly or don't fly based on your medical status and that medical. People stress out about it a fair bit if they do have issues. Well, then transport moved into 2021 where they simply came out with an exemption.

And that exemption says you can do two telemedicals, meaning you don't need to show up at all. Now remember pre-COVID, you had to do an annual medical, and if you're over a certain age, you had to do an annual EKG. Well, we are now still in February of 2023 in a situation where you can go 36 months with never seeing a doctor in person. And if you go back to the guidance to the civil aviation medical examiners, which is a transport Canada doctor trained specifically in the aviation portion, it's rather comical to read because it says pilots are not inherently dishonest but they're essentially not going to tell you things without you seeing them and it says in person so we're in a situation now where I can go to a crowded concert I can go to a restaurant to a sports event I can sit in the back of an airplane with 200 other people and fly 14 hours

and go to Australia as a pilot and Transport Canada is still still saying the reasoning behind this is physical distancing and avoiding hazardous health care scenarios. That's the reasoning in spite of the fact that I can do all of these other things, which I absolutely welcome and we all want to get back to that normalcy. But I can't sit in a pristine airline office along with my doctor because Transport Canada is concerned about physical distancing. It's a continuation of transport's total abdication as a regulator for safety in transport in this country, in my opinion.

And we need to get back to in-person. in medicals for for very very what I would hope are obvious reasons. So that's the situation in Canada. The stuff with the FAA gets more attention because you know better than anyone, Sean, that that you know US media tends to dominate even here in Canada sometimes. And so it's getting a lot of attention. But I would say the situation right now in Canada is arguably worse because we're just not doing AKGs. Guys don't even know what's going on. And I've spent hours on the phone with vaccine injured airline pilots who are in this situation and who, you know, unless they want to put their hand up personally, which, you know, they should be doing,

is going unnoticed. So why do you think that is? You think, like, is it, is it just like, it's the federal government? And I, I, you want to, you're in, you're in around Ammitton. You want to see a strange place going to the, the past. Port building. They're living 10 centuries ago. Like it's like this is strange.

Federally regulated as I'm pretty sure I understand. Like I think I get that right. And so, you know, part of it is they're sticking to the dogma of like mass save lives, vaccine save lives. We're going to continue to physical distance. We're going to blah, blah, blah, blah. And you're like, you guys are living under a rock.

Like walk outside the door. Let's move on with life and whatever else. When it comes to the pilot thing, you know, you talk about the vaccine injured, you know, if there's been a hesitancy across the board, it's been to give a voice to anyone who's been vaccine injured. Well, it's not just to give a voice that there's a hesitancy to even speak up, certainly, within our particular demographic for the reasons that I mentioned, right? Because like pre-COVID, we used to joke about it.

If you go to your medical and you say, like once or twice, I got a little bit of chest discomfort. It's like, whoa, hang on a second. and you'd be like sitting on the sidelines for a week while they made sure you were okay to go. But I've heard stories from guys that have had concerns while flying. And that same response, shall we say, did not meet their raised concerns. So back to your question.

Well, no. So then is it like what is that? Well, I mean, there's a few areas of life where it's almost rhetorical, right? I mean, we've been asking some of these questions for a very long period of time. I mean, Transport Canada in particular, and we've been pretty vocal about Mr. Elgabber, not from a personal standpoint, because I do think leadership, the buck stops somewhere eventually. And if your entire department has abdicated responsibility for safe travel in this country, then the buck does need to stop with you.

And so I've talked to transport doctors, and I've asked some questions. And the answer I got was, well, I'll see if I can find it. But for the most part, transport seems to be MIA. Like they're just not there. It's like they turned out the lights and went home sometimes. Like we've got guys that have been off for various reasons. Some of them not related to vaccines. Some of them otherwise.

And the aviation industry is facing an increasing shortage of pilots to make a long story short. Those numbers that were put out over the past several weeks and they're pretty dire and they're going to get worse. So the airlines are very motivated to get these guys back on the line. So they've gone and seen a doctor and the doctor says, okay, whatever, you know, you got this going on with your leg or otherwise. Like, I can sign you off, but we need transport to essentially rubber stamp it and say you're good to go. These guys wait sometimes six months to a year before they get the paperwork done by transport to get them back on the line. And it's, that's, I mean, that part probably baffles me even more because you think, well, the airlines should have a reasonable lobby.

They certainly have a better one than I do. And why aren't they beating down the doors even harder to get transport moving? But as far as this telemedical piece, Mr. Chartier, Noah Chartier with the Epic Times, spoke to him last week, and he did some good work digging around with transport. And he actually got an answer out of a spokesman. Because if you go online, it says, well, we're going to stop this telemedical thing in March. And I spoke to some political offices, and they say, wow, we don't want to bring it up publicly because it looks like they're going to stop it in March. And I say, guys, they've been kicking it down the road for three years. trust me, they're going to do it again. Sure enough, that's exactly what the spokesman said.

Transport intends to continue the use of telemedicine until it determines how we can integrate it as a permanent feature in the aviation medical program, which just absolutely gobsmacks me. There is a reason we show up on an annual basis. It's the same reason, in my opinion, we show up to do simulators every four to six months because guys need a kick in the rear to make sure they're continuing to either dig in the books or say, Yeah, well, I got this issue or I got that issue and sit down and actually stick some, you know, probes on your chest and make sure that your ticker is working properly, right? You think they're nervous of what they might find? I mean, that's such a hypothetical.

It's not even funny. But, you know, like, one is like, well, I mean, the telemedicine is funny. Like, oh, the telemedicine is funny because, like, you don't have to be an aviator to see that. Like, I mean, there's times where you'll do a phone call conversation with a doctor now. because of wait times and everything else if you got a sick kid, right? Like the stories of that goal have been going since, you know, COVID started, right? Like, we'll keep you out. You know, you just, you let us know what your symptoms are and we'll prescribe something over the phone.

Right. Oh, boy. That's where we're getting to. When it comes to like how far away we are now with aviators in particular, it's like, so do they just not want to see what's there? And I don't, I mean, that's completely high. hypothetical, so don't feel like you have to, I don't want to pull you into something you don't want to be in. No, I mean, I'm happy to speak to it. And we've tried really hard with free to fly to be what I would call the adults in the room,

where we're not going to wave our hands and scream and holler and jump up and down to get attention. We're going to try and be measured and nuanced and talk about things that are credible and factual. So your question requires a bit of a longer answer. The one thing I'll say, is we were very pointed in writing with Mr. Al Gabber last year on two occasions and those letters are on our website. And we positioned it as we've tried to from the start. Listen, we want the safety of our professionals, we want the safety of our passengers and we want the long-term economic viability of the airlines. And so would you please partner with us and answer some questions here, some of which related to what did we do to study these things along the way? Like have you

heard about vaccine injury amongst the flight crew community? There is a reason. There There's eight questions. None of them were particularly hard. It took 86 days for Mr. Al Gabbard to answer it. We sent him the letter twice and I sort of joked and said, well, in the transport world, if you compare it to waiting for a passport, I guess 86 days is maybe he figured he was getting back to us quickly. But all we got in response were liberal party speaking points that the vaccines are approved by Health Canada and that was it. So to answer your question, they don't want to answer specific questions. We also asked questions early on about a line that had said previously that pilots should not

participate in any sort of experimental medical trial. Because we're not even supposed to take antihistamins and otherwise without consulting a doctor. So when we asked that question back in July 21, we put this out as well. You can see it visually. I think it's on our Twitter feed or something. They just full on took that sentence, which had been on the website for a decade plus, and they simply removed it. So there's a history that I would say is concerning. But to your question, which touches at least somewhat on aviation safety, we're definitely

concerned. But I think at the same time, what we're seeing, some of what's happening in the States has frustrated me because it's attempted to do exactly what we've been frustrated with the mainstream media for doing for three years, and that is weaponized fear. So we've got people down in the States on a couple occasions that are talking, about people in apartment buildings and homes and beaches should be concerned because of what's happening with pilots and aviation. And I'm thinking, you want to summon 9-11 imagery to push your narrative. Seriously, like, do you see what you're doing? You're falling to the same depths as the

other side has done, and we can't do that. And I want to make this point, because we do have people emailing us and saying, should I ever get in an airplane again? And I'm thinking, well, like, are we trying to push the WF agenda by keeping people out of airplanes? because the nature, Sean, of a pilot incapacitation is this. And I've seen social posts as well where people say, well, my husband is doing pilot incapacitation training for the first time ever. This must be like vaccine related. And I was like, well, 20 years ago in the military, we were doing that.

So it's not new. So this is the part where I say, I want to give a nuanced answer. If I'm flying from Toronto to St. John's, let's say, and I'm up over Quebec City and the first officer, like, keels over all of a sudden, I don't know what's going on. The airplane isn't going to lose altitude. It's going to continue trucking along at Mach decimal 7.8 at flight level 360, wherever it's going. But my experience as the remaining pilot is going to become extremely busy for a short period of time.

So the priority for me is what I went back to is avate first, take control of the aircraft, make sure everything's stable, determine that things are stable, that we're at altitude, we're not going anywhere, and then, you know, secure the other guy, get his seat back, get it locked. If there's another pilot that's traveling with us, maybe get him in the seat to help me. If there's not, then we'll get a flight attendant up there to help move this guy. So what remains after that scenario is now I have to figure out where are we going. Okay, Quebec City is right underneath. Okay, let's get ourselves down from altitude. Let's plan the approach. Let's talk to the passengers. Let's talk to the flight attendance. So the risk is elevated, but the airplane isn't suddenly going to, you know, descend 30,000

feet and plow into an apartment. And I think it's important that people understand that. And I, you know, I draw an analogy to driving in a snowstorm, let's say, right? I'm not just going to continue doing 120 down the, down the highway blindly. I'm going to say, well, the risk is elevated. I'm not going to stop going and getting groceries if I need to. I'm not going to stop visiting my friends, but I'm going to take, I'm going to take some extra responsibility. Part of which we're trying to do is free to fly, which is saying to transport Canada, let's get these guys in,

let's create a permissive environment where if they are suffering some post-fax harm, give them an environment where they can actually address it properly, whether it's D-Dimer tests or, you know, ideally cardiac MRIs, which I say that in Canada and sort of chuckled because you can't get an MRI even if you're in dire circumstance. But anyway, so that's a very long question,

but I appreciate the question, Sean, because it comes up a fair bit lately and people are starting to live in fear when it comes to flying. And I think they do need to be concerned about the elevated risk because phase of flight, you know, if it's 100 feet

take off or landing, it's a big deal. If you're in cruise, which is the vast, vast majority of the time, it's an elevated risk scenario. The odds of both pilots having an incapacitation concurrently is extremely, extremely low.

But that's a long answer to your question. Yeah, but that's what you're love about a podcast format, Greg. I'm not worried about a long answer. I think you're doing a very good job. One of the things I hate, and you've said it a couple of times, is the amount of fear that both sides push. It's just fear, fear, fear, fear, and we lived in that world for, I don't know what it was. I don't even want to think about it, but it's, you know, two years plus, and I'm, I'm pretty much done with it. I like, don't get me wrong. I think probably the more concerning thing listening to you talk is the fact that our government continues to not address things that all of us can

just see like let's let's just get to the bottom of us this this is this is this goes back to the the the start of all my smp presents uh especially moving forward maybe not the first couple uh i always come back to the conversation i have with mike kuzmiskis we're just like why aren't we solving problems and taking away the fear why must we continue and then certainly there's going to be listeners who text me right now. I certainly understand parts of it, maybe lots of it. But it's across the board right now. And what you're talking about is like, let's just, you know, let's address the problems.

Let's figure them out. Let's get back to things that make sense. And we continue to do things that aren't making a whole lot of sense. Yeah, well, if you ignore them, they're just going to get worse, right? And it's the same. You use an aviation analogy. if you're trucking across the ocean and you get a, you know, one of your engine instruments starts bobbling.

You don't look out the window and start talking about the Jays game and hope that it goes away, right? But that's kind of what we're doing. You've got to say, listen, like it's going to become really complicated. Somebody should do a meme with Trudeau and a plane on fire and he's just sitting there looking out the window talking about the Jays with, you know, the transport minister. That would be fantastic. Anyways, I'm sorry. That's a great.

That's a great, well, just picture. I can just visualize that instantly. But the problem is that's what we're doing, right? Whether it's this scenario or otherwise, is we're hoping that by ignoring it, that it's somehow going to go away. And I think people are doing that on an individual personal level as well. I know some of our pilots are because they took the shot to save their job

and they don't particularly want to dig into what's going on with them. and they hope if they just kind of take it easy for a few months, then it's going to get better. And I hope and pray honestly that it does because nobody wants to see what they're going through. And some of these stories are just heartbreaking. But unless you really address it, and I think there's an aspect of addressing it medically, but then there's an aspect of addressing it, I would say, courageously and publicly, because those stories do matter. If you look at what happened to Bob Snow, the pilot down in the States,

Now, in fairness, he's on the tail end of his career. I would say he was not too far away from retirement, but good on him. And I think there's a calling for people that are in those positions, and myself included, right? Like losing my job for a year sucked and it was hard for our family. But I'm in my 50s. There's some of our guys who were, you know, in their early 30s with three kids living downtown Toronto. They literally would have been out of a house and unable to feed their kids in Toronto.

But for someone like myself, there's a calling to stand up and say, no, like we're not going to go down this road. So I would say the same for someone like Bob Snow. He courageously stood up. I don't know if you saw it. Sitting there in the hospital and it's like, look at what this did to me. And there's a cost to doing so. There's the public exposure and the people that will vilify you, but there's also a cost with what happens to your medical. And perhaps, I would say maybe less so now because there's a lot of attention on it, whether your airline's going to go after you for speaking publicly or otherwise. So I think what we need is people who are with. willing to stand up and be called and say, this has happened to me and the consequences be what

they may. I'm going to speak up about it because that's how we turn society around. And I think, you know, you and I've talked about this before on previous podcasts. That's how you affect change. You go back to Solshinitz and otherwise there's my standard Solshinitsin plug, but, you know, you read the gulag and that was the lesson learned from it is quietly going along and tiptoeing down the stairs while they march you away in hopes that it gets better doesn't end well. Well, here comes my standard plug for my idea right now, and I've set it on like 10 concurrent podcast, but I'm going to say it again. If you're sitting out there, you're listening to this, and I'm speaking directly to

men because, sorry, ladies, I can't speak for the other sex. And I just, for me, in my life, you want to start to unravel some of the things that are stuck in your head, or you want to progress in life. you want to get to a position where you feel comfortable of like, no, this is what, this is, I'm not going past here. Personally, I think start a book club tomorrow and invite three guys into it, five guys into it. There will be a number, you know, I'm just listening. I had a, the more I talk about it, the more people send me things about it, which has been

really fun. And I hope to take a little bit of a road trip maybe across part of Western Canada, at least, because there's men's groups all over the place I'm finding out, which is really cool. And there's going to be, one of the things got sent to me was the Dunbar effect, which is, you know, how many people you can have in a setting where it's, you know, most effective. And the number that he talks about is the number four and how it's a military number and it's got a long history and whatever else. Anyways, the reason I bring it up is like you want society to change. Don't get me wrong. What Jordan Peterson talks about with Rogan and creating, I don't know, an anti-W-EF or whatever it is.

It's like, okay, and then, you know, you brought up Bruce Party before we started. In my conversation with him, it's like they're doing what they can out there. Sean's doing what he can out here and Greg's doing what he can there and everything else. And if you want to bolster that, find a group of men that will sit and call your bullshit and talk about some ideas. Maybe, you know, Tim Mowens, another one, I'm going to meet with them. they started one in Eminton and and he said it's just like the change in his mindset from one meeting let alone three consecutive meetings is he I forget the word he said he was just so excited he's like I can't believe I didn't know about this I'm like no kidding it's like you want

things to change stop acting like a white knight's going to come in and just solve it I mean we're seen in Alberta right now Daniel Smith is doing what she can but she is going to be attacked and we can either sit there and go, oh, she's, you know, X, Y, Z and she's in on it and whatever else. It's like, you think she's going to get that position? She was going to wave a wand and everything is just solved. Oh, this is like, this is going to take time. You know, anyways, that's where my standard plug is right now. I love it, Sean.

It's nobody's coming to save you, put it that way, right? No. And I'm not saying that, and you're not saying, you're saying the opposite. I mean, partnering with other people is absolutely critical. And a book club is a fantastic idea. Maybe don't start with a gulag. But that reading piece opens the world that is absolutely phenomenal. And it's fascinating that you bring this up because I think we've all experienced quite a continuum since 2020 until now.

And I'm no different, and I'm sure you're not, Sean. I've seen it just in the nature of your podcasts. I'm a very, very different person than I was two or three years ago. And people say, oh, it must have been hard. And I'm like, it was hard, but it was a crucible. And it forced me to get serious about things in life that I hadn't been serious about before, one of which was my faith. And even just recently, this Aviate Navigate, communicate piece has been just a piece

of some other things I've been wrestling with, even on a personal level, and thinking, am I actually doing a good job of some of these things? And the answer is, no, I'm not. I'm not doing a good job because I, I spend so much time hammering away at causes that, you know, stuff around the house probably suffers. And I'm not, I'm a bit of an introvert. I'm not prone to gathering with other people. But my wife and I have been doing just what you're saying, Sean, is making an effort to get together and spend time with other couples who think the same thing.

I've been getting together with a buddy Adam, just the past couple of weeks. We'll get together at McDo's and have a coffee. And just that hour, just like you said, Sean, like he'll say something. And I'm thinking, forest for the trees. Like, I just never saw it that way, right? Because I've been stuck in my own little cocoon. And a lot of it's being blasted at me from my laptop, which isn't necessarily healthy. And sometimes we need people to wrestle through these things with us.

And then that only happens conversationally. It doesn't happen just while you're watching to a video or listening to a podcast. And I love podcasts. Don't get me wrong, right? but I think we need that conversation to help unpack some of this stuff. Well, I think podcasts and documentaries and YouTube videos and everything are great. They fill my brain full of ideas. Then I need to go and wrestle with those ideas with somebody else who's maybe heard them, maybe not.

I mean, that's what Solz Janitson did for us. It just gave us something to argue about or any book. You know, I talk about Jurassic Park being one of the best books I've read in the last. And that's a Vance Crow. Shout out to Vance Crow if you're tuning in. That's another book, Michael Creighton, where I was just kind of like side swipe. Jeez, that was deeper than I thought. And then you have all these ideas, but now, you know, for some they can go write it.

And Sean should probably write a little more. But Sean likes to talk things out because it's how I make sense of the ideas that I think I understand. And then to hear different perspectives come in on it, it's just super beneficial. Like it's just, I don't know, I have this idea and I'm just like, I can't, I don't want to preach, you know, but it's like you get the standard Solje Nitsyn plug. I'm like, I better do this. Because it's just to me right now, I just see the benefits. And if everybody started now, you know, in five years, where are we? We're in a better spot.

I'm not saying we're out of it, but we're in a better spot. No, and that's the nature of, I just refer to it as drops in the bucket. And it's cliched. But this is, it's the nature of change. It comes about by individual courageous action. And it sounds like I'm an idealistic 18 year old. And every time it comes out of my mouth, I feel guilty for it because it's not, it's not sexy and it's not fast. And the problem is we live in a culture that wants both of those, right?

We want things that are appealing visually and that happen quickly. Like, just tell me which piece of paper I need to complete and who I give it to and then make this go away. It's like, no, we're talking years, right? We're talking years of grinding it out. We might be talking the rest of my life, right? Like, Julie Pinesse, man, I can place myself sitting in the seat like it was yesterday when I'm like, so how long until we're out of this? Like I just, I should go back and listen to that conversation. I'm going like, you know, three months, six months.

And look on her face when I say that. I should put that on the wall whenever I'm having an idea of like, oh, yeah, well, we'll be out of this quick because she's like, no, no, no, like we're talking, I don't know, a long time. And I'm like, oh, I think you're right. Like, I don't know. I mean, I say I honestly feel we'll be battling this for me. And I guess you can take some hope that I'm not 20 years old, you know, until the day I die. Now, I'm thinking about on a broader level in terms of the digitization of life and the woke agenda and what we're doing to kids and otherwise.

And I know you've had people on that have spoken very eloquently to those things. But that can sound like a hopeless scenario. And then we circle back to where we were before, which was talking about, this is why we need faith. This is why we need family. This is why we need community because you can't sit there and try and be a warrior by yourself sitting in a desk. And I'm guilty of that myself. I'm not preaching. I'm saying I got to remind myself with this stuff on a regular basis.

And I think what you're doing by calling people to things like men groups is fantastic because that's, I mean, it's the nature of battle. You don't take a soldier and tell him, here's a gun and run across the great divide and slaughtered the enemy, right? You're part of a platoon, which is part of a battalion, which is part of a larger force. And that's how we affect change. Well, and I'm glad you brought up the military. No, in history, this has happened. But normally, you do basic training, you do a bunch of different things because you just don't walk on a battlefield and act like you know. You give Sean Newman a gun and send him out to.

wherever, probably I'm not going to make it that long. But you give them some training, you teach them some things, you're showing some tactics, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You can extrapolate that out as long as you want. Now my percentage of survivability drastically increases. This is no different. You walk into an argument or I just use, I mean, it's so just the pandemic. Every day it presented itself.

And I was ill-equipped. still at times I feel like I'm ill-equipped Greg I don't know about yourself and the only thing that's helped get that better is having more conversations to try and arm yourself with as much intelligence and then are trying to articulate it and have people around you

that support you because it is a tough road to slug I mean it's great having different people from all across the country that I know we're doing the same thing are they're trying there's people pulling on the rope and if that doesn't give you hope I don't know what will yeah well I think I think

I think you got to, you have to, don't take this the wrong way because I don't want people to go too far with it. But I think you've also got to look for the battle sometimes. And that goes back to what I was saying about this endless consumption of information, right? Like we were talking even amongst some of our pilot community about which doctors to go see at a particular airline. And guys were trying to find, they were essentially trying to find the one who was the most like-minded to make it an easier experience, right?

And I said, well, and I'm not saying I'm inclined to do this. myself, but I was like, well, how about finding the one who's the least inclined and then having an actual conversation about everything that's happened the last couple of years? Because that's how you affect change. Finding the, you know, the most permissive target isn't necessarily going to do it. And those conversations need to, again, be nuanced and professional and done in a way that respects the individual. But I think unless we call people that are stuck in a certain mode to to see some things that maybe they're not looking at, we're not going to affect change.

And that's what I mean by finding the battle and actually bringing something to it. That's really, that's an interesting, I would agree with that. Because continuous, and I'm sticking to my war analogies, I guess, but continuous like war is draining. Like, you know, you got to take, like, I don't know how many people, I'm going to use the word burnout or depression or something along that line. that they just like got to the point and just like I just I got to focus on myself for a bit and and had some you know and hey a hand up right here I'm no different I took two months off podcasting

to uh you know get myself in the right mind frame and everything else after Ottawa it just be like like okay let's let's take a step back and and start to uh focusing and get my because and I wasn't the only one like I don't know how many times I hear different people now as I blabber on here Greg, we've passed the time. For the listener, I sent Greg a time, and then I didn't honor that time because I've written it down in my book as a different time. Do I have you for any more time,

or should we let you get on to your next meeting? Because I don't want to, you know, cause the butterfly effect in a negative way across your timeline. No, I'm just looking here. And, no, I think I've got a few more minutes. put it that way. Well, then I'll put it to you this way. You know, we've done what any good podcast seems to do. We've strayed from where we started from, but that's, that's the, you know, that's what I enjoy about it. When, when, when you look at, you know, the road ahead and different things

coming in the world of pilots and that type of thing, is there anything that sticks out to you, or maybe that we've, you know, omitted that we haven't got to before I let you out of here? Well, I mean, the one piece we discussed as far as the pilot post-bax harm, I think, is key to bring up. And I appreciate the opportunity to speak to what I'd call a credible outlook for it, that we should have elevated concern. I do like to recognize, you know, the fact that there's that while I'm back to work, there's others within our industry and across the employment sphere that are not back to work because they weren't offered their jobs back. And I like to give a shout out to those principled men and women who continue to stand by their convictions. And why aren't they offered their jobs back, Greg? Well, to get into the nitty-gritty of it, and I mean, I'll name names as far as airlines go because I don't have any problem doing so.

And in this case, the ones I'm thinking about are Westjet, pilots and flight attendants. There was a small group of them that did not go on a leave of absence because they wouldn't sign the paperwork accordingly, because it required crossing lines from a health freedom standpoint they weren't okay with. So they were terminated. And then when the vaccine mandate was suspended, a word I use carefully, those who were on the leave were offered their jobs back. And this particular crowd, and it's a small crowd, were offered their jobs back contingent that they sign all sorts of conditions,

one of which was, for instance, setting aside any grievances they had, not pursuing legal action, attesting to the fact that, that Westjet satisfied all the requirements of the human rights code and the Charter of Rights and Freedom, essentially asking them to lie and sign at the bottom of page saying that this is how you were treated. And then probably an NDA, a non-disclosure agreement on top of that. And to a man and woman, all the ones that I've spoken to refuse to do so and they continue to be barred access to a job that they spent a long time training for and that they loved and were passionate

about. So my hat is off to them, and I think it's important to point that out because people do have this false idea that we've all gone back to normal. And I'm acutely aware, you know, these guys have got young families and they're still struggling because they are standing on principle. And they're not getting any attention or fanfare for it or otherwise. They're just grinding it out. Some of them in fairly menial jobs, making ends meet as they, as they did. and the rest of us did. And some of us are blessed to be back to work, but not everybody is. Yeah, well, maybe off offline we should throw around a couple of those names because maybe

there's something we can do on this side to, you know, tell a story or if they're interested and talk about it. I don't know if they are. But I think it'd be an interesting perspective to hear that, you know, I remember the video of the West Jet pilots putting all that flight gear in front of the head of office. geez, that seems like a lifetime ago. But I assume a few of those fine folks are the ones you're talking about. And if they're interested in sharing some of their story, you know,

certainly always open to hearing about people's convictions and why they, you know, I mean, when you talk about signing things, and it makes perfect sense to me, but it's always more powerful when it comes out of their voice instead of just talking about it from afar. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, you know, there's beautiful things that go on behind the scenes that we don't talk about either because they're, you know, within the community of those who were out of work and then we're back, you know, guys passed the hat around Christmas time and put some cash together for some of these guys. So there's good things happening behind the scenes, but you're not going to replace a lifelong career and a six-figure income by having the hat passed at Christmas time.

Yeah, but in saying that, those beautiful stories need to be told as well because. Yeah, for sure. I mean, it doesn't matter the occupation. It doesn't matter if we're talking pilots or, you know, dad tells, I don't know if his dad who tells a story. Maybe it's one of his best friends. Anyways, he used to truck across Canada. And I must have been dad who told the story.

Geez, I'm talking to myself now. Welcome. Anyways. You're not even 50 yet. Yeah, that's right. Anyways, the story goes, he had a heart attack on the road out in the middle of Ontario. And, you know, he's got this young family back west. And we can, you know, as far as I know, we couldn't afford to fly him home or anything, right?

And now the truck's burnt up and he's sitting in the hospital and my mom can't get out there because, you know, she's got five kids at all. Anyways, and the truckers all all pitched in together and flew them home, right? Those stories are what humanity is all about. So they need to be shared. So I appreciate you talking. Even if it is a little bit, the thought that counts and, you know, actions, you never know where those little tiny actions lead to. They can have big real world consequences, and I mean that in the best way.

Yeah. I appreciate you giving us a platform. Well, I appreciate you hopping on. And I want to make sure you get, I joke about myself, but I appreciate you coming on and giving me some time this morning. Greg, you know, it's one of these friendships that's been built through exactly this. Someday we will meet, I hope, a handshake or what have you. Either way, have a great day, and I appreciate you coming on, and we'll see where we meet the next time. Sounds good.

No, you're doing great work. Hopefully under better circumstances. Hopefully, some things start to make sense. Either way, have a great day, Greg. Thanks, John.