Shaun Newman Podcast - #489 - Tim Stephens

Episode Date: September 1, 2023

Pastor of Fairview Baptist Church in Calgary who spent 21 days behind bars back in 2021 for organizing church services. Let me know what you think Text me 587-217-8500 Substack:https://open.substack.com/pub/shaunnewmanpodcast Patreon: www.patreon.com/ShaunNewmanPodcast

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lubricants, methanol, and chemicals delivering to your farm, commercial or oil field locations. For more information, visit them at Hancock. petroleum.c.ca. He's the pastor of Fairview Baptist Church in Calgary. He's also a husband and father of eight. I'm talking about Tim Stevens. So buckle up. Here we go.

This is Tim Stevens, and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast today. I'm joined by Tim Stevens. So first off, sir, thanks for hopping on. Yeah, thanks for having me, Sean. You know, you probably don't know a whole lot of my backstory, but I was just saying to Layton Gray, this was only like, I don't know, 10 podcasts ago or whatever it is.

I was saying, you know, it's funny, all through COVID, after I, you know, started, you know, interviewing all these doctors and lawyers, professors, and on and on it went. Like, I never ever had one of the pastors who was arrested. And Layton in the middle of the podcast going, you want them? And it just like starts firing off this email. And I'm like, yeah, well, I actually kind of do. I mean, it's a long time ago that you're arrested and everything else.

But in saying that, it happened here in the province I call home now and everything else. and I watched it from afar and kind of went, oh, you know, I actually don't know what I was thinking back then. I rewatch the videos, and it's like, man, we got to a really dark place there. But for a lot of the people here, they've probably heard your name before. Maybe they've watched everything on you. But at least, first, thanks for coming on. Two, could you give a little bit of a background on yourself for the audience?

Yeah, I'm a pastor at a church, a very Baptist church in Calgary, and just a small church and this seeking to, it's an older church seeking to revitalize it. And then, of course, during COVID-19, after a few weeks of being closed, we made the decision to open back up again, not only for the sake of the community meeting together, but we just felt what the Bible taught was that we needed to gather together. And then what the government was saying about the severity of COVID-19 and the efficacy of lockdowns was simply just not. true and so we started meeting and we did that for a time but then of course it wasn't too long as word

of mouth went out and people started joining us you know our parking lot was full we're supposed to have nobody there and we got a few complaints and then the police started showing up and as things escalated one thing went to another and then you know ended up serving three weeks in jail through that ordeal so that's and now our church has has grown significantly very very healthily i think people just appreciate people who have principles and convictions and have come and join with us. So I'm very thankful. Well, you know, this is, this is why it's, you know, it's kind of interesting to do it, you know, years later from when you're arrested, right?

Because it was 2021, the summer of 2021 when, you know, you're putting jail and everything else. So it's an interesting, you know, time has passed. But like, you know, you skip over. I look at the story and I go, I don't know. I know there was more people. I'm looking around. I'm acting like,

there's people sitting beside me, Tim. Sorry, apologies. But I'm like, I'm looking around and I'm going, I'm acting like, you're acting like, sorry, you're acting like,

that, you know, this was just like, you know, we just started doing these things and it wasn't a big deal. And, you know, and we just, you know, whatever. And it's like, true. Today we can say this.

But back then, uh, it wasn't like every pastor was doing it. That's a lie. You know, it was pretty rare. You know, I look at you and I go, you got eight kids. I'm like, you know, one of the most heartwarming things I've seen is when you get out of the remand,

and they all come and give you a big hug. And if you're not a dad, you don't get that. But those hugs, I'm like, and that's not me. I have no idea about jail or remand center. But, you know, back then, I don't know. Was that an easy decision? I mean, you're married. Was your wife just like, you know, yeah, you got to stand on this?

Or was she like, you're insane. Like, just stop, knock it off. We got a young family and everything else. Well, I certainly did have a few voices telling me that. But for my wife, you know, she had always been very supportive. And I'm thankful for that. And I think a lot of the other pastors who were open to and suffered consequences for it had very supportive wives that were alongside with them the entire time.

And so that was so helpful. But as a church, you're right, it was a process. and there were opportunities that I had with other local pastors to meet together. And you're trying to hash out the ideas together. You're hearing pros and cons on different sides. And as soon as we were open and moving along, I remember the first ticket I got was a $1,200 ticket for failing to wear a mask. And that was a pretty big deal at that time.

And then to have my name in the newspaper and then to have all these angry emails, hundreds of angry emails being sent to our church. church, you know, saying that we're killing people because we're gathering for church. You know, that certainly was something that I had never experienced in my life. And it was, it was a kind of a big deal to walk through that. But the advantage was, as each of these consequences came, you know, the bar was set this a little bit higher. So after that $1,200 ticket, you know, the next week I got three court summons and up to a maximum of $100,000 each. And so when we got those, my wife and I were thinking, wow, this might cost us our home.

And that caused us to kind of pause and reflect and say, are we really doing the right thing? But we kept coming back to the same conclusion that if it's right, it's right, regardless of the consequences. So even as the consequences increased and then there was court orders and then threats of jail, as those things were happening, the consequences, the stakes were going up. But we were still committed to the truth and how we saw everything unfolding and the importance of the importance of. of gathering together as a church. And so we just kept going through it. But at the time, it was difficult. But the most thing that was, or the most challenging part of it all,

was really the division within the church, within families. I think everyone can relate whatever side of COVID they were on was a strain it brought on relationships, being met family and friends and other communities. So that was very difficult. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, I don't think, think anyone was immune to what COVID did to, it doesn't matter, marital relations to family, friends, business, you know, right across the board, hockey teammates, you know, it, honestly,

it doesn't matter, you pick it, it infiltrated everything. It was, well, I mean, those were dark days, you know, and I admired certain people who could just, you know, could see it before it happened, or could withstand the heat that came with standing up. Like, I mean, when you look back at it, I don't know, maybe you, like, I would love to hear this. Like, and I was listening to an interview of yours with, and I'm forgetting his name off top of my head, not that it matters. And one of the things I was just kind of curious out, I'm like, you know, did you feel like you were in the right spot? Or, you know, did you like grow and learn? Because, like, so many people ask on this side.

You know, how did you know? I didn't know. I just, I had no idea. I was just annoyed. We couldn't talk about it, right? And so then, and we weren't allowed to meet in groups. And I'm like, well, that's kind of odd. And I wasn't allowed to have my parents over.

And well, that's really odd. And odd and odd and odd. And you could just, some people picked up on the oddities and then started to question. And over time, like you say, you kind of like lifting weights. You eventually just get to the point where they're calling you everything in the book. And you're like, oh, whatever. I'm just going to keep asking questions. On your end, you're kind of one of the first through the gates, you know?

You're kind of like one of the public figures in Alberta, specifically. I can't speak to the rest of Canada, but here certainly you're one of the first, you know, to kind of bust through these gates and being, you know, persecuted and everything else. Is that something you felt like, oh, well, I'd already been doing these things up until 2020, so it wasn't that big a deal? Or were you kind of looking around as well? Well, I think I have the advantage of, you know, as my job, my profession, is essentially to communicate truth to our people.

And so I spent a lot of time studying, speaking, writing, doing those kinds of things. And so, of course, when something like COVID happens, and then that's affecting the families and our church, is it incumbent upon me to think, okay, what does, how should we think about this? How ought we to navigate this? How ought we to live? You know, what does the Bible say about this? And so that caused me to look into this subject so that I can, you know, pass on that information to others, you know, and even, even things like the COVID stats.

Like I would, I would go to that, you know, Alberta website when they had all the stats and try to look at those and really, are those stats really relaying what they're saying to do? And so if I go back all the way to, you know, like in May 2020, so COVID was a big thing in March or so, that's when Lockheed, and started happening in the end of March. But already by May, it's been just over a month, you know, I already have a fairly lengthy essay sent to our congregation about why we need to continue to gather, evaluating COVID, evaluating the different graphs and data, and they're really trying to teach our people and navigate them and seek to bring them along. And so in that regard, being a teacher, being one who's wanting to be a student of culture

in the world and of truth, I think it helped trying to navigate COVID. And I certainly want to know how to think and how to live through that. Of course, we did not know what that would bring ultimately consequences. Like I think all of us were thinking, okay, just a few weeks, you know, maybe a couple months. But it seemed like in the summer of 2020 when mass mandates were starting, you know, there was a far-off rumor of vaccine mandates. It was at that time when I was, was being all the more deliberate and try to get in front of these things. And I think as I've gone back and counted, the number of articles or essays I've sent to my church was probably numbered like 50 or more related to COVID and how we ought to view

the different aspects of those things. So, yeah, it was something that I really spent a lot of time thinking about. You know, when you say it's your job, I hope I'm not butchering this, but you said it's your job to try and like disseminate the truth kind of for your congregation. I hope I'm saying that right. Yep. It's interesting to me because, you know, so many people through COVID say, ah, it's just my, it's just my job.

I don't want to do it, but it's my job, you know, it's just my job. And, you know, I'm kind of curious, you know, because, well, I just go back to it. Like, you're, I wish I could say that you're like, you know, for, I look at the church and, um, I grew up going to church, but then I had a lengthy period of my life, well, even today, I guess, where I'm not actively going to church on Sundays. And part of it is, you know, I didn't see, now this is going to come off harsh, and I hope, but Tim, you're not in my community anyways. So I just, I didn't find anyone that I was like, man, they, yeah, they got it.

And I want to go, you know, somewhat follow their teachings, give up my Sundays to sit. and listen when I can just you know where I sit today where I could just crack open the Bible and have that one-on-one and let's let's just let's just read and talk you know anyways and I have that type of thing you know when you're sitting there and you're you're doing what you're doing were you wondering where all the other because I think all of us were you know if anyone's going to stay in my brain I'm going if anyone's going to stand up it's going to be the churches I mean they one point I had an old lady tell me that they outlawed singing because and I'm like man what a world like where the world like where

the congregation doesn't just lose their beans. Like, guys, they're outlawing singing. Are they, like, what's next? I mean, it had to have been deflating at some point. Well, I think your assessment of the church, I know you're trying to be careful, you know, don't worry about offending me, but I would probably agree that for the large portion

of the so-called church in our province and even in our country, you know, the Western world is so out of step with what the Bible would say or what the church historically has been. You know, this active idea of the church being a resistance, a voice for truth, something that, you know, you have the authority in the government, you also have authority in the church, and these things are separate spheres,

but in one sense, the church ought to be, you know, a conscience, a voice of truth, to combat, you know, the coercion or the persuasion coming from the government. And I think we've seen that historically, but not in our day and age. And the way that I see it, you know, so many churches today and so many men who lead those churches today and women as well, their motive is really trying to do what they can to receive the applause and the approval of the people in the city or in the province that they're trying to reach with their message. And they think if the world thinks that we're really nice and great and we make the church as comfortable, bold as we can, friendly as we can, you know, we dress just like them, we talk just like them,

we do everything that they like, and that is going to help our churches to grow. And but your churches might be growing, but you're growing a crowd, you're not actually growing to church. Whereas when you look in the past, you know, you had pastors and church leaders who were bold and proclaiming the truth and people wanted to kill them. They threw stones at them and and many of them died for what they said and wrote. And so, you know, we need more men and more churches like that in our day and age. And I'm thankful that, you know, there are, there are a few out there that are doing that. But I think for the most part, most churches are really trying to think that if they please everyone, then that will be a good thing for the church. But you'll just go along

with whatever the government says, whatever the media might be saying, and they're not actively thinking and filtering that through, you know, the Word of God like they ought to be. Could you speak? Could you, I don't know. That's an interesting thought. Growing a crowd, not a church. Can you tell me what the difference is? You have what?

You have bouncy castles. You know, you got basically a Starbucks cafe. You hear music that is nearly identical to what you hear in the radio, but then maybe there's some more Christian lyrics. You know, almost everything is modeled after a TED talk. a concert. It's not the church. It's not something historic.

It's not something profound. It's not something that is speaking the truth and really standing against the grain of a culture today that is really getting more and more antithetical to what the Bible actually teaches and the foundations of our society and what it rested on. Yeah, I find that thought very fascinating because it's like, yeah, so you got a full church.

You got a thousand people. people but what are the thousand we I think what you're getting at and maybe I'm wrong in this is what are the thousand people there for that's right because you know when when you're at your your your depths of like despair or you're in your tough times you're looking for the strong voice to kind of like straighten you out and be like this is where we're supposed to go and in the best of times that's uncomfortable for most people because they just kind of want to go you know you know let's just kind of like it's not a big deal and whatever let's just

kind of just leave me alone I'm living my life and and the rock concert the TED talks the is very motivational speaking and you know like oh yeah like yeah okay that was and and you carry on with your life and it you kind of come in on a Sunday and you walk out and you come back the next and it just becomes that type of thing I think that's what you're trying to say am I am I getting that right yeah that's exactly what I'm saying and so for that kind of church it's no problem for them to be closed and to do all that online you know They can do all of that online and still draw an online crowd, and it doesn't change the fundamental nature of that church.

Whereas our church community and others like us, you know, the physical gathering together, being in each other's lives, seeking to discern and know the truth, that is something that we were unable then just to simply close our doors and just wait a year or two for COVID to pass. How do you think it got there? Not COVID, sorry. Not, I'll be a little more clear in my thought process. Is it like, how did it go from the church that you're talking about, which is like

fellowship and being together and like you said, being a community, essentially is what you're talking about. And trying to, I don't know, there's something very impactful to being around human beings, right? Like there just is. and when you have the other person's the best for the other person in mind, wonderful things really happen. I've seen that play out. How did it get to something that's completely different than that?

And I'm not saying that people in other churches are like, I don't like what the other person want, but there's something very interesting with a lot of different churches where there's a lot of infighting, a lot of gossip, a lot of, like, you know, like I don't need to tell you. It's more speaking to myself at this point, How many churches have kind of imploded, separate into factions, start up anew, and away they go again, and on and on it goes?

Like, I mean, it's kind of fascinating to sit back from afar, honestly, Tim. Yeah, that is the pattern, and that is a shame. That people who profess to follow Jesus and his message of love, descend into that kind of quarreling and bitterness and gossip and all this all this division that you see and and then not only that but this this really this marketed marketing kind of approach you know it's very salesmanzy you know when you talk to some of these pastors today rather than this authentic community that's more like a family it's more like more like a business and they're trying to get their their market share and I think I think a lot of that what's

driving a lot of that is you know in Christian's We talk about how the Word of God is true and how the Word of God is therefore, it's authoritative, it's come from God, and it's sufficient, meaning that if we want to know what it means to be a church, we go to the Word of God. If I want to know how to live my life, I go to the Word of God. But I think what has happened in our culture over the last hundred years and rapidly accelerating maybe after the 60s into the 70s is that there has been an abandonment of going to the Word of God to understand what the Church ought to be, and there's been more of a pragmatism, what works, what is going to bring the most people in? What do people want?

What are they looking for? And I think at the start, it was, and even today, well-meaning people who really care for others, and they think if they're part of the church, their lives will be better, but they're driven by this, the ends will justify the means. And like you've alluded to already, what you win them with, you win them too. And so now you have people who are just coming for entertainment or they're coming, you know, for a sense of community that might be whatever they're coming for, but their minds and their hearts are not really being shaped according to the Word of God.

So the message of Jesus about love and of grace and of mercy and self-sacrifice and hard work and all of those virtues are not actually being cultivated in a person. And so then you see churches imploding and dividing because there's no real truth or the Spirit of Christ not connecting them together. That's how I understand. So I think the church today is incredibly weak, and I think that's one reason why we are seeing such a shift into our culture. and in many ways, you know, we might be one of the first generations

when our kids are not better off than us. And I think in large measure, that is because the church has been weak for generation after generation. And so they haven't been, like the Bible says, that Christians ought to be salt and light. You know, they ought to bring joy and beauty and goodness to a culture, and that's just not happening. Salt and light.

Can you explain that to me? Well, salt, obviously, when you put salt on your food, it makes it taste much better, doesn't it? And light rather than darkness, you know, light will scatter away not only the darkness, but the things that happen in the darkness, all manners of evil and wickedness. And so the church is called to be salt and light, like a city set up on hill, giving light to those down in the valley. And so there ought to be this influence for the better coming from Christians, coming from churches. And I think if you were to ask a lot of communities today that have a church there,

you know, what differences this church mean to this area or to our society or culture? They probably have very little, maybe a pancake breakfast during Stampede time here in Calgary. But I think what the church needs to do is not necessarily, you know, in the past, they've done hospitals and orphanages and you care for the physical needs of people. But I think one area that church has really neglected was being a truth teller, someone to be, you know, we talk about being prophetic, being able to discern and take the things that are going on and understand what's really happening and then distill that and then to teach that and be a very. voice that someone can listen to and follow and understand really the times and what's going on and then make wise choices. And so the church really has that role that so many are actually not doing that today. And what a time to be doing it in?

And so people, you know, what are they going to do? They go online and they listen to podcasters. They listen to Jordan Peterson or Ben Shapiro. They're looking for some kind of direction in terms of, you know, what does it mean to be a man? how do I live my life? You know, what's going on in the culture today? What should I do? People are looking for answers. And the church, which claims to have the Word of God, you know, the eternal truth, certainly that is always relevant. And so, you know, that's my mission. And I know many other pastors share that same mission today. And so I would love to see just a recovery

in the church with that role. And preachers being unafraid to speak the truth, even though it might mean they get canceled or people say mean things about them, that's going to happen. But speak the truth and have some principles. Well, I think it's, to me, there is this little bit of an undertow.

I think this is the very hopeful side of what I see. And that is a trend in the last year of more people open to talking about God, the church, the Bible, on and on that would never. I'll put my hand up. I'm certainly one of them. There's probably a reason why I didn't sit down with you

in the middle of everything you were going through. And I always, like, I don't know how to explain this. And I don't know how this happened. Because even if I was against religion in itself or the church, you know, you start reading the Bible and you're like, man, how did I not look at this thing like for what it is? Like I just, I don't know how to explain that in as many words as just that. But up until like five months ago, I don't know, the listener correct me on that, how long ago did I start talking about it?

Five months ago, six months ago, I hadn't picked up the Bible since I was a kid, and back then nothing stuck. You know, it's kind of like you're just, you know, the punishment of reading the Bible, you know. So you looked at it and, you know, and yet Jordan Peterson, the first time I ever hear him talk, you know, he starts talking about biblical things and you're like, oh, I remember thinking, ah. And then he starts talking about it in a way, and you're just like, it's almost like, man, that starts to make sense. And it's funny, it took time. It took a lot of time. You know, when you think about it, 2018 to 2023, that's a long time for a guy to finally, maybe 2017, to be honest, for me to finally open up the Bible for the first time ago. Maybe I should see what Jesus had to say.

I mean, that sounds wild to say out loud. But, I mean, I think that's the hopeful thing I'm seeing, is that by having podcasters, having the Jordan Peterson, having all these different people start to be in search of the truth. For a lot of people, it brings you to the Bible. And I mean, you want truth to be some scientific, like one plus one equals two, and that makes the world makes sense. But what you get to is, man, there's a lot of things going on in this place that makes zero sense unless you pick up the good book.

And certainly, maybe there's other things that people can do. I'm certain there probably is. But for me, I mean, on 500, well, over 500 podcasts now, you sit at the point where you're just like, this is where I've gotten to, where you go, if you speak out against the crowd, right, some hard truths, which I think in our world isn't that heart of a truth, Tim. I mean, like, you know, we asked a politician the other day, what is a woman? And to see them, try and dance, I'm like, this is fascinating, right? I get it, people are going to be triggered by that. But overall, it's like, it's such a simple black and white. I don't think it'd be that hard for pastors to just speak their mind and have an influx of people such as myself going like, I'm just kind of waiting.

And I know there's a ton of people waiting that are just waiting to see where they can go head their, you know, kind of put up their, put down their jacket or whatever and sit and bringing something that's going to add value. because right now, and I know this once again comes as a harsh little critique of a lot of the churches, I just really enjoy reading the Bible. I just, you know, there's part in the French, but there's no BS when I sit down one-on-one with it. I'm reading it, I'm seeing what it says, okay, think about it, okay, go back, read it again. That's interesting, right? I don't have to have some guy sit there or woman, sit there and just, you know, I feel like all I do is get chastised for who I am these days. And once again, I'm on a long tangent here, folks.

But I go, you know, Tim, the day of maybe not being able to speak your mind and really be on the outs, I think it's long gone. I think now people more than ever are looking for the Tims of the world. Well, I think today the problem is not only do you have external censorship, but you have people who are self-censoring. They just feel like, oh, if I say this, people won't like it. And so they don't say it. And so there's a lot of self-censoring going on. But I agree what you're saying about the aspect of hope. I love science.

My background is in engineering. I just love to understand how things work and to see human knowledge grow and increase and all the technology we have. It's just incredible. But one thing science can't do is to give us meaning and purpose, to go beyond just the tangible and the physical that are around us. And I think that's what we're missing in our Western world.

We've left our Christian roots. We've left our Christian heritage. We've left the heritage of the Bible as the way to understand morality and society and family and gender, marriage. All of those things are predicated upon the Word of God. And of course, also line up with what we see in nature or creation. And I think you have voices like Jordan Peterson and others who are pointing us back to the Word of God and as a way to explain why we're seeing our culture, you know, essentially turn into clown world where we don't even know what a man or woman is any longer.

You know, we're seeing crime increase. We're seeing poverty increase where, you know, education just seems to be laughable in so many different areas. We just can't think. You know, you read books of the past. You're like, wow, it makes me look like such an imbecile compared to, you know, these giants intellectually of the past. And so I think so many people are seeing that cultural shift, and then now we're going back and say, well, maybe I ought to look at the Bible again. You know, maybe there's a reason why Jesus is the most influential person who ever walked the face of this earth. Maybe there's a reason why, you know, the Western world, which we used to call Christendom, was the most, you know, prosperous society or civilization ever.

and that has given birth to our way of life now, where we have a better way of life than the ancient kings of the past. So I think it's incumbent upon people who are searching for the truth. You know, you must go to the Word of God. You must go to the Bible. You must go to the teachings of Jesus Christ. And it's my conviction that when you do that, and when you do that with an open mind, you'll be won over. You'll see that Jesus is not only an incredible teacher, but what he came to do, to give his life as a ransom for sins

so that we can be reconciled to God and now be restored in this life and then have that hope for a life to come, which is imperfection. And so that is something very profound, and it gives meaning to life, it gives hope to life, it gives joy to life, and then you can experience hardships in life and even consequences that are unpleasant because you have a hope that goes beyond, you know, just your physical comfort here and now. Yeah, it's, it's, you said behind, I wrote it down, left behind her faith. I remember thinking, I remember talking with Paul Brandt.

And somehow we got on to, you know, his belief and, you know, how he, he, he came to Jesus Christ and his journey at a very young age. Anyways. And I was kind of like, oh, okay, that's interesting, whatever, like whatever, it kind of ho-hum. And we got talking, though, about today's world and how fast it is and how Western culture,

you never just sit down and contemplate things. Certainly if you have young kids, certainly if you got a full-time job, and on and on it goes, you know. And then we got talking, he got talking about, You know, if you leave Western culture though, and you go somewhere that's maybe a little poverty stricken and different things like that, you can see things going on and you're like, huh, they just look at the world different than we do. And we think we're so smart. I think we're just, we're so great.

You know, we got all these gadgets and everything else. But we kind of miss out on a big chunk of what's going on. You know, I think about that. That was last summer I sat and had that conversation. I had no idea. Like, I kind of got what he was talking about. But, you know, I didn't fully understand Tim what he was talking about. maybe I still don't. But certainly, you know, when you stop and you start to contemplate,

you know, how important, you know, you talk about coming to the Western, you know, and the foundation of it. It's like, and you start to think about that and you start to think, well, the people who founded this, you know, the Western world were pretty smart. Yeah, I mean, did they have the blemishes? Yeah, we all do. But they were pretty smart. And a lot of it came from this thing called the Bible. If you just started reading it. And you just started reading it. And, you know, you You mentioned an open mind. It's like, yeah, yeah, I would agree. I mean, I didn't jump full, you know, full board into it.

I mean, I started reading, I was like, Jesus is a pretty smart guy. I've literally listened to a lot of smart men and women over the course of the podcast and read books and everything else. And the crazy thing that always stuck out to me is I started reading this thing. You know, I'm just picking through some of the stories, handpicking whatever. And I'm like, oh, I had no idea that was in the Bible. I had no idea that story. come because how many people have like not plagiarized that's probably a terrible

thought but you kind of right like kind of I'm making you know it's like plagiarizing the Bible I mean I'm sure Jesus like spread the word far and near you know but like to me so much wisdom is sitting there I had no idea you know I had I'm telling I had no six months ago I would have no idea I'm like I think I I thought I got that thought from like Marcus Aurelius or from whoever it doesn't matter Jordan Peterson or any of the other guys And here it is, Jesus is like laying it all up for you. And like, oh, crap. Like, this is, this is, you know, like we got to be careful we don't forget our roots.

And almost cut, you know, cut them off, Tim so that we just, you know, full bore ahead on scientific advancement. And as fast as we can go, because we're so smart when, you know, there's a lot of wisdom that has come through the past. Certainly, once again, you know, finding our faith again, you know, because for, you know, the course of my life, I'm like 37. but I felt like, you know, the church has been dying for a long time. And now I just, I guess, you know, once again, I'm rambling here, folks, but I just, I look at it and I go, like, there's a huge resurgence in the people that listen to this show of like people, I'm not ready to go back to church just yet, because I haven't found one that really is my liking. But people are looking and people are reading and people are starting to pay attention to that. And a year ago, if I would have brought this up, everyone would have been like, what the heck are you? talking about but more and more people get it and I think that's really fascinating

but also like as far as you mentioned left behind our faith I'm like that's an interesting thing to happen over the course of history right like like could they have ever seen for seen that we've become so technologically advanced that nobody would stop anymore because everything's just go go go yeah and I'm not so sure whether you know technology is the blame I agree people are to are so fast in life that we don't really think of things very, very deeply. You know, we're entertaining ourselves to death, you know, whether through our phones or televisions or computers, tablets.

You know, we just have so much, so much entertainment coming in that we barely have time just to think about the deeper things of life. But I think at the same time, there's been ideas that have been sewn in the Western world, you know, you have guys like Karl Marx or others who have sewn ideas, and those ideas are coming home to Roos now. and you realize just how bad of my idea they were. And I think that the principle, at the very base of it, has to be an acknowledgement that there is a God,

there is an authority above us, that we are in fact creatures of God. And not only do we have morality from him and a sense of purpose and well-being from him, but all authority here on earth ought to be, in some sense, subservient to him, Otherwise, if you have no God, if you have no supreme ruler who is a chief authority, then what is going to be the authority for our life?

Who's going to dictate the purpose and the meaning, the morality of life? And what we've seen in the Western world in other communist countries is essentially the government becomes the most powerful thing. And so the government essentially performs the functions of God, where now the government is the one dictating morality and legislating. a different morality, a different idea of marriage and gender and sexuality, a different way of raising children. All of that is now coming from the government who's essentially gotten rid of the notion of God and they now become the lawgiver. And I think people are realizing that,

wow, that is quickly going to move us into tyranny. And we've forgotten that the foundation of the Western world was an acknowledgement of God and then under God. God, you have, you know, you have a distributed form of government because, you know, humanity is sinful. You can't, you can't invest all power into one legislative body or one person. And so you have to have those things divided up. You have to have, you know, civil authority given to the government. You have to have authority given to the church. You have to have authority restored back to the family and to fathers and to communities. And this authority needs to be distributed, although all of it is connected back to God and to his standard of morality and his standard of truth.

And I think that's when that principle was well understood, we had a flourishing and the ability to create and to advance beauty and goodness in a way that we're not necessarily seen today, even though, yes, we are so technologically advanced, but in so many ways, we're missing something fundamental about what it means to be a human, what it means to be together in relationships,

what it means to be a community and how to thrive in those areas. And you bring a family, and I always search for, I'm always in search of men with strong family convictions, right? Healthy marriage, kids, just putting forth a good role model

for society, their children and for other couples to be honest and when I look at your story you know how many days was it that you spent at the remand I was there for 21 days two different times but 21 days in total and I don't know maybe did you know going in hey guys I'm just going to be gone a week it's not a big deal I had no idea how long I'd be there so how old are your kids when this is going on you have eight that were was it 10 and under I had eight and I think my oldest at that time would have been 11 or 12, maybe 11. And then my youngest was a newborn actually born during December of 2020, right at, you know,

right in the, right in the throes of COVID-19. So yeah, very, very young family. And it was hard for them to kind of understand all what was going on. But I sought to try to teach them and to bring them along. And they know, even at a young age, they know history, they know Christian history, they know that freedom and truth is not just this bed of roses that you lay on or some easy path that you walk along, but rather there's heart-fought battles that can be costly. And it's up, especially, like you said, to the fathers, to the men of the society to be able to demonstrate that for their children, do that. for their wives and for the greater good of people around them. Yeah, well, I admire it because I'm like, I got three young ones.

I think you're crazy for having eight, you know, and saying that, I bet you that's a fun household. Like, I mean, eight kids, hoofed. But, you know, for every one of them that got it, it was like, yeah, I understand why dad's going. There had to have been kids in your house that were just beside themselves, that their dad had been taken away for holding, you know, a sermon for, I mean, like trying to explain that to a child must have been something else. Yeah, it was difficult, but, you know, we had the advantage of, you know, a long, you know, 2,000 years of Christian history where I'm certainly not the first pastor to be in jail. In fact, you know, the imprisonment I suffered was much less than some Christian pastors who have gone before them.

I would tell my kids a story of a man named John Rogers. He lived in the 1500s, and this is when Queen Mary was on the throne, who came to be known as Bloody Mary because of how many Protestants she burned. But John Rogers was the first pastor that was arrested and then executed under her watch. And whenever he was arrested, the days she came to power, he preached from the most, you know, the biggest, pulpit in England and warned people about her tyranny. And for saying that he was arrested. He had nine children. His wife was pregnant with number 10.

He was in jail for a year. And on the day of his execution, that's the first time he set eyes on his 10th child in the arms of his wife. He, you know, the crowds say that he was like, he looked like a man going to his wedding in terms of the countenance on his face and the joy that he had to suffer and die for the truth. And so when his children witnessed that, and even though they might not fully grasp it,

when my children see this, they realize there's something in this world that is worth fighting for. There's something in this world that is true. There is goodness. There is right and there is wrong. And you must stand for those things. You know, besides teaching them through examples of the past, I really sought to help them not be angry at the police.

Of course, we don't agree with what they're doing. You mentioned before, I'm just doing my job. That doesn't cut it. So we try to teach our kids, though, but don't be angry at them. Don't yell at them. Don't curse them or call them names. Act like a follower of Jesus Christ and stand for the truth and stand in an unwavering way. but don't do it full of hatred or don't do it with some kind of wicked, you know,

bitter display of anger. Do it with grace, do with righteousness. And that will communicate to the world, you know, who are the good guys and who are the bad guys. I mean, it's, you know, at some point I was telling Chris Barber before he left that I should have his son on because his son got to be, well, I mean, I think the youngest driver led the freedom, you know, at times led the freedom convoy across to Ottawa, right? And I was saying, I would love to have him on because it would be an interesting conversation for a son to witness his dad be hauled off to jail in that instance for leading, you know, I don't know, the largest peaceful demonstration in Canadian history. I think that's pretty safe to say. And to see it from there, his eyes, because I mean, like, obviously, you know,

as listeners on here have got to witness with Chris, like here's this big giant of a man who's soft-spoken and just got fed up with the government and went and did something about it. And I assume with your children at some point when they get a little older, I would assume, they're going to have memories of and tell stories of when dad, you know, just said no more.

Like, no, we're going to stand here and whatever. You know, like that's, when I sit on this side with my father when I was young, When tough times got going on the farm, you know, he probably had the option of just laying down and I don't know, calling him bankruptcy and, you know, oops, but instead he put his head down and went to work. And it's like went to work. And it's one of those things that sticks with a kid. Like I, whenever tough times come, it's like, well, I just got to get to work and, you know, kind of like it's going to know, let's get going.

Right. And that's something that kids are absorbent. Like you know this, right? Like they just suck in so much and you don't realize they're paying attention to all these little details. Because, you know, like, I mean, I just, I don't know how they do it. Like, it's wild. But what you exemplified for them would be interesting. I'd be interested to hear the conversations that go on in this Stephen's household here moving forward.

Yeah, what was neat when after all this has kind of gone on and even the summer of 2021 when things are settled down, at least in terms of the enforcement against our church. You know, we gather every night as a family before bed. We read the Bible together. We sing together. We pray together. And my four-year-old son, every night, very consistent, you know, for more than a year after my arrest and imprisonment, would always pray every night.

God help Daddy not to go to jail and may the restrictions go away. Every night, consistent over and over and over again. So it was neat to hear that. at the same time, it kind of stirred your heart to realize, you know, for this four-year-old child, this is the most important thing to them, that daddy wouldn't go to jail again. And it's like, how can a four-year-old in Calgary, Alberta, be praying that, you know, for his dad who's a pastor? And so it touches you. And at the same time, you know, it's an encouragement.

And I hope as they continue to grow older, that this would implant a mark upon them, that they would be truth seekers and then truth tellers and then stand by their convictions and not to compromise. How I think you mentioned it right off the hop. But as far as your church goes, what's happened since all this has gone down? Has it shrunk?

Has it grown? I guess I'm just kind of curious of where your church stands these days. Yeah, whenever they arrested me, they locked up our church. And our church was a bit of a smaller facility, but they locked us up. So we were meeting outside. And as we're meeting outside, even more would come and were able to come and meet with us.

And so when restrictions ended up going away in the summer 2021, we go back to our church. But we're unable to all fit in in one go. And so we're meeting with multiple services to accommodate all the people who want to join with us. And then we started looking for a new facility. and God was just so gracious. I think we found an old United Church that was shrinking, but a large, beautiful facility that they just couldn't care for anymore. And so within five months, I think we had one offering.

We prayed, you maybe know the story of Jesus feeding the crowds with a few loaves and fish. And you have this young boy who brings loaves and fish to Jesus, and Jesus prays, and then distributes, those five loaves and those two fish and thousands of people are satisfied. And so we were a small church and we just said, God, we're going to come and bring our loaves and our fish and see what you do with that. And so in five months, I think it was five months, you know, all the funds that were needed to purchase, you know, this facility all came in. And so now we're in a much larger, beautiful church. And Sundays continue to be full here.

And people are already saying it's already getting squishy here. But there is a real hunger for the truth. And we see people who've been Christians for decades upon decades, you know, lots of white hair who are coming. And it just, hey, this is church like I remember when I was a kid. And then you also have, you know, this brand new Christians. Or you have people who are seekers who start. thinking about this during COVID or maybe shortly after, you know, when they lost their job because they didn't want to take the vaccine, whatever it might be, but they're coming

into our doors and they're hearing the truth. And it's so exciting for us because we're able to, you know, have a meal together every week. We sing together. I preach a message every week and try to make that, you know, take the Word of God and show its relevance for us today. And so God is doing a real work of strengthening. our community. So I think, you know, if something like these lockdowns were to happen again, we're in such a better spot now than where we were then. And I think at that point,

it would just be a matter of where we put all the people who are going to want to come and join with us if the government was going to again try to crack down on the worship in the church. So that's been our experience. But I know for those churches that were closed and we're doing so because they thought, hey, this is what Jesus would have done and we're being a witness to the world about how much we care for people by closing our doors. You know, I haven't heard a single story of people coming to those churches and saying, hey, thank you for closing your doors the last couple years. We just want to, you know, share our appreciation that you closed up shop and tried to

stop the spread. And I never heard a story like that. And in fact, a lot of them continue to struggle today trying to get their people to come back who are now comfortable, you know, doing. church online or just doing it in their home or maybe they're coming to a church like ours who sees the value of gathering and really not that we're trying to be countercultural not for the sake of it but but in many respects we're very countercultural uh because because the bible is is counter to so many aspects of our culture today because we're living in the upside down

yeah i mean we're literally like we're doing things backwards in so many different ways it doesn't make sense like it just doesn't I have to make sure that I point this out just so the listener doesn't breeze by this back it's just being imagine being a cop yeah guys we got to go uh they got to lock up the church okay yeah all right so they go lock up the door right and then they leave uh guys we got to go back to that same church no it's locked up yeah I know they're holding service outside okay and um I don't know if they're wearing masks I don't know if socially distanced okay so we're going to have to go get tim and haul them off like this is this is this is this is the low like in one of the low points of of covid they literally arrest you

outside while you're preaching outside because of health measures correct yeah so this was this is in june of 2021 okay it's it's a warm beautiful day you know we're well past you know cold and flu season. And at that time, the outdoor limit for a gathering was 10 people. And you had to be distance and massed and all that kind of stuff. So 10 people outside. So we're outside. And of course, there's no evidence that any outdoor transmission is taking place. So we're outside. And probably, at that time, maybe 200, 250 people outside in a park, you know, with a breeze, in the sunshine, and having church together. And it was that that I was deemed in defiance to the court order.

And in fact, that happened on Sunday. So Saturday night they actually came to my house, the police did, with paperwork from the court, saying, you know, this is a court order for you to stop. Here's an injunction. And so they're coming over on Saturday night to try to stop me from hosting church the next morning. And just like you said, like a low point, you know, for every police officer, I talked to, I just tried to just speak to them like a human being. I'm like, do you guys really want to do this?

Like, you have your own oath. We have the Constitution. Do you really want to come on a Saturday night to a pastor with his kids playing outside in the park and come issue an injunction to try to get me to stop going to the park tomorrow for church? It was odd at that time, and it seems so odd to look back at it now. And I think, and I hope at least, that some of those police officers were a bit embarrassed about, you know, what happened because the church, and churches like ours and families like ours, we're so supportive of the police and for what they do and how they stand for righteousness and how they want to, you know, make sure our society is safe and peaceful. And so we always were on their side.

We commend them. And so it was so strange to be on the other end of that. And I think there needs to be more thinking, more discernment, more seeking to understand and not just always follow orders. And of course, you can go back to Nazi Germany for famous examples of just following orders. I think we're better than that as people, you know. Well, it was interesting in the rebel news coverage when you got arrested from your home. In the discussion you were having with the cop, the cop was.

saying you know it's you know it's government we have we live in a democratic world you know if you don't like it vote them out etc and my brain just went honestly right to nazi germany i'm like so what happens if they order you to just take everybody to the gulag for the next four years and just take everybody up you're just going to fall along with it because i mean that's a democrat like i mean because that's kind of where we were getting to you know we're getting to this point where it's just i don't want to be here but it's my job and you're like yeah and at some point all of us have a duty to uh the the law of the land the you know and this is why you know when it's on the I think it's on

the charter rates and freedoms of memory serves me correct you know it's it's God first like to me you know we're all bound to that it's like oh okay so at some point you can't question what the heck the government's doing and not just be like well I got a job to do and I can't you know and but so many people and and I agree with you not what you told your kids and going back to that like not harassing yelling at them everything else because sometimes you know when sometimes when you can just be respectful and be like you know you don't want to do this and when it probably has as big of effect as putting up a giant fight and calling them every word

under the sun and saying that I understand why people want to do that too because I mean like the insanity just reached all new levels at that time I'm curious you know um if you're at all interested in the million person March uh in September September 20th if if that is something something your church will be participating in, if you're going to participate in it, if you're for or against the idea, because it is started by the Muslim community who invited all religions and faith to come march under, you know, like against indoctrination in the schools. Is that something you've thought about or know much about, Tim? Yeah. No, I've had questions about that before. And I think in the main, obviously I would support, you know, the central message

that they stand for in terms of, you know, a parental right and responsibility to pass on your own values to your children. And the fact that Muslims can come and do that here in Canada and protest in that way and appeal to that fundamental right and freedom is because of the foundation we have here of the Christian faith. And so it is important for them and for Christians to know that this, the idea in the society that we have, that we have these fundamental freedoms and parents ought to be able to pass on, you know, their values to their children is something that is born out of the Christian worldview. So I do support them in that. Whether we will march with them, you know, whether that's done as individuals or, you know, it like

would it be in an official capacity as a church sanctioned thing because it's important for me even and people might not believe this but as a church it almost seems like in one aspect I don't just want to be seen as somehow we're just a political organization like our biggest concern is is rallies or other kinds of being involved in politics I think you know my role and the role the church here is even much more fundamental in terms of really tapping into a worldview, our essence, or understanding of what is true and discernment. And of course, that does trickle in how we live and function our lives. And so, you know, whether that's the truck or convoy or other marches for freedom, I've participated in those things. I've stood alongside other people who are not Christian for those

things. And so I have no issue with doing that. And at the same time, I want to make sure that that people know, it's not going to be the teachings of the Quran that are going to lead to the free and prosperous society that they want. But it's going to be the teachings of Jesus. It's going to be the Bible. And so I also want to make sure that that message is loud and clear. So even if I participate with them, I still want people to know that what they really desire and what they really want is only going to be a fruit of a recovery of the Bible and Christianity in particular as the, you know, the source and the foundation of the good, prosperous, free society that we all desire. And so I want to make sure that is always a key note that people are hearing as I teach

and as I participate in different events like that. Yeah, completely understand. I kind of, and I kind of put you on the spot, but that's all right. I'm kind of curious though you know I don't understand this okay so I'll just ask the try and get spit it out here is when if it had been somebody else other than a Muslim with the entire Christian community been like we're on board with this right away because what they're talking about is a march to basically say stop with all this gender indoctrination of our children which I think in general is like

Yeah, honestly, that makes sense to me. But when it becomes, and I'm not speaking to you, I'm just kind of speaking as a whole, because as soon as it's a Muslim community that's saying, hey, everybody can come here, we're not walking with the crown up. I don't, you know, I haven't read that anywhere. Everybody's back, yeah, we might walk. I'm like, huh, that's interesting.

Why the hesitation when it's something that's impacting, I mean, like the stories come out about the 14-year-old, old boys and the teacher the recording of you know her basically chastising them about being Muslim and against the LGBT community and a whole bunch of other things because they'd left school and all this stuff and what I see here and maybe I'm wrong because I'm really open to like discussing this more as I'm like why aren't we all going like this is a great idea kids shouldn't be around these ideas I don't even know what age I want to be around this idea but certainly young

kids should not be exposed to these ideas. They're like really complicated and they preach something that is pretty much upside down, makes zero sense, and yet not everybody's on board with that. I have a hard time understanding that. Yeah. No, I let me say this. I think the general idea is that this is a fairly new phenomenon, I think because the media has got a hold of the, of the Muslim protests in regards to, you know, gender ideology and other elderly. LGBTQ teaching in the public schools. But what's important to realize is that this has been a battle that churches like ours have been fighting for many, many years. And so it's not like, oh, are you going to support them? It's like, well, we've been doing that, you know, over the last

decade or more. And so as an example, I think it was back 2016, you know, there was this famous bill, Bill 10, that essentially legislated gay straight alliances and schools. And it was at that time I was involved in rallies and marches and teaching and trying against that law. And at that time, you know, it seemed to me that the public education system was so far gone in terms of the teachers' union, in terms of the different boards controlling this, that I didn't really see a way to recover. And so there's been, because of that crisis among education, especially in the Christian community, or this conservative Christian community, community, and there has been a real push in home education.

And so I think if you take our congregation, you know, we have about 400 people or so, but I think almost almost all of our kids, you know, it's going to be high 90s, are being home educated because we understand that the public school system is just not a place where you can actually put your children into. And so I think the Muslim community are just, they're a little bit behind in realizing that as our kids have come home, not at all embracing their own values, but are embracing these progressive left values. And now they're starting to realize, hey, the schools are no good. It's like, well, we knew that a long time ago. And we've pulled our kids a long time ago. And then I think to your point

as well, there is a large swath of the Christian church who will never get on board, whether this is Christians or whether it's Muslims, because this is too much of a hot button topic. And so, recently when our federal government passed a ban on conversion therapy and made that a criminal offense to advertise or to engage in this practice of conversion therapy, which would even include even things like preaching or prayer meetings and churches. You know, the day that bill became law, churches like ours, part of other churches in Canada, and we preached clearly on that subject on that Sunday, and we have been every single year on the anniversary of that bill's passing, to let the government and let people know that this is an issue that

that is important and we will always speak the truth and we're not just going to go along and you can put us all in jail, but we're still going to preach the truth. And those things haven't really gotten much media attention as the Muslim marches have been getting. But for the large portion of Christian churches, they were silent in the past, whether that was gay straight alliances and schooled. It was silent whether that was gay marriage. being legalized. They were silent whether that was conversion therapy being banned.

Because again, they want to try to increase their church by being kind and gentle and friendly and always seen as warm and welcoming. And so even though they might not personally agree with what's happening, they would never say anything about it. And so they wouldn't join our church and they wouldn't join this Muslim march either. And that would be, representative of the majority of Christian churches today. That's an interesting thought. If I can summarize that, maybe, what you're saying is, this has been going on a lot longer than I'll even give credit,

because as soon as you talk about the conversion therapy and all the bills with that, I completely understand what you're talking about. And so you're going, the writing's on the wall. So the majority of our congregation is already homeschooling, which, I mean, I don't have to say that on this podcast. We already know of a huge portion of people that have been pulling their kids and putting them into, you know, different homeschooling communities, that type of thing. And so when you look at this March, it's not that you're, you know, and I don't mean to put this on Tim, folks, that Tim's against it.

It's just more in my eyes I don't hear a lot of the Christian community talking about it, which is interesting to me. And what you're saying is, while the Christian community that has been staring at the public school system has already probably pulled their kids and are doing something about it that way, and are not that they're not worried about it anymore they're just kind of seeing the writing on the wall and the portion that hasn't moved their kids out is probably okay with bringing them into the churches and and uh bringing welcoming them in and and hoping by osmosis of uh being in the the congregation everything that they they they hear the teachings of jesus and everything else and kind of come in and as for the muslims they're all still in school so they're seeing this firsthand and going what on earth is cana doing and they're upset and

marching on it. I hope that makes sense. Is that, that's what I'm getting from you. Yeah, no, I think that's a decent, a decent summary of what's going on. It's obviously, it's obviously complicated. So that's why, you know, I do support what they're doing. But I think, you know, the parental right to educate our children is founded and predicated upon our responsibility to care for our children. And so whenever you give your children to the government to be educated, you know, there's one pastor that says, you know, if you send your children to Caesar for an education, well, don't be surprised at the come back Roman. And so that's what we see happening in our world today. Well, I've rather enjoyed sitting and chatting with you. I have one

final question, the crewmaster final question, and that's what's next for Tim? And if there is a way, how can we help? Well, what's next for us is, you know, it's trying to be faithful in what I'm doing as a father and as a husband and as a pastor. Those are my primary responsibilities. And any opportunity I have to speak publicly on a show like yours or others is just icing on the top, allowing what I do every day just to be heard by other people. And so, you know, for those who are in your audience, you want to continue to pray for our church, because I'm sure there are other battles that are on the horizon. And that we just, desire to see the truth be known, whether that's through our church or other avenues.

I'm just convinced that we, as a people, as a nation, we do need to return to God. We do need to repent of our sin. We do need to believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ and follow after Him. And that is so necessary and so vital. And then from that foundational commitment will then come just the fruit and the peace and the joy of a of a home well ordered, a society well ordered, and we can all rejoice in that. I should point out, too, you're in the documentary, the Essential Church, and people had Shannon Halliday on, geez, that's a couple weeks ago now, I suppose to, and I believe

that's going to be available for order here end of August, if that makes sense. How was the experience of that, you know, being a part of a film that came out of the United States? Well, the Essential Church movie is just an excellent documentary in terms of how it moves, a story that it tells. And so it was really a great honor and a great privilege. Grace Community Church down in California who put this movie together, featuring their own story and their pastor, John MacArthur, God used him in my life to lead me to the truth. And so to be able to be in a documentary together with him and to meet him and get to know him a little, that has been such an encouragement and such a blessing to me.

And it's something that I think is going to be helpful for people who watch it. And so I encourage you, I haven't seen it. Go ahead and order this movie or look for it, the Central Church movie, because it doesn't just document what happened during COVID-19, but it demonstrates that this is something that happens in history and that will prepare us all. also for what's coming in the future. And it gives people, Christian or not, an idea of what the church ought to be and what the church ought to do during the time of public crisis and confusion like COVID-19 was.

Well, I appreciate you giving me some time today, sir. And who knows, maybe we'll get to run into each other in person someday here. Either way, I appreciate you hopping on, and thanks for doing this. Well, thank you so much, Sean. It was my pleasure.