Shaun Newman Podcast - #491 - James Coates

Episode Date: September 6, 2023

Pastor at GraceLife Church in Edmonton who spent 35 days in Jail for violating public health rules back in 2021. He is also the co-author of the book God vs. Government: Taking a Biblical Stand When Christ and Compliance Collide. Let me know what you think Text me 587-217-8500 Substack:https://open.substack.com/pub/shaunnewmanpodcastPatreon: www.patreon.com/ShaunNewmanPodcast

This is late and gray. This is Tanner today. This is Donald Best. This is Granny McCoy. This is Steve Holmstrom. This is Viva Fry. You're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks.

Happy Wednesday. Hope everybody's week moving along. First day of school, come and gone. And we got a billet living at the house. So it's a busy, busy time of year to say nothing else. But before we get to today's episode, let's talk about some things going on in the world of people, supporting, companies supporting the podcast.

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the park. And they're hoping in order to make this happen, if any of you out there listening, you go, oh yeah, I'd love to help. Well, they're looking, if you're a band and you want to play some music, if you can help with signage with the, for the kids' sake logo, as well as one million march for children, if you just want to, if you're able to help with food and water and juice, or activities for kids, sound system, drones, volunteers, donations to offset costs associated with it. Shoot me a text in show notes, and I can get you to tear in the appropriate people. That way to get you hooked up. Either way, that's September 20th.

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Here we go. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Today I'm joined by Pastor James Coates. So, sir, thanks for hopping on. Yeah. My pleasure to hear, Sean. You know, as I told Pastor Tim Stevens, you know, in the middle of COVID when everything was going down and you find folks were facing charges. and everything else. I never had either one of you on the podcast, and I kind of like

bashed myself for a little bit for that, because I'm like, for a guy who interviewed everybody, I stayed away from pastors, and so I'm trying to make amends for that, and I would love to hear some of the stories. So I'm sure everybody in Alberta, or maybe not, because I'm sitting in Alberta and I don't know the story, but I would say a good majority of people know your story, but for the people who don't know who James Coates is, could you maybe just shed some light on it? Yeah, so do you want me to start with the story or with me? With you, with you, absolutely you.

I want to know who, James, I want to know what leads up to this and what gives you, you know, the personal conviction or if it's support or how it goes to where you're sitting looking down the barrel of, you know, the HHS health authority being like, listen, comply or else. Okay, well, I'll give you a little bit of a quick history. So I was born and raised in Scarborough, Ontario and did not grow up in a Christian homes, but most of my life in the Toronto area, I got saved after four years of university at Western University in London. And at that point in time, my life began a completely new trajectory from all that I was pursuing prior to that to wanted to pursue the Lord with all my. life on my heart. So I ended up a few years after being saved, sensing the desire to go into ministry,

and that led me to a seminary in Los Angeles, California, called the Master's Seminary. And I was there for three years, at which time I connected with the church here in Edmonton and began to interview with them. And in July of 2010, I became the associate pastor of the church that I am now and began the regular preaching ministry from that pulpit. So I've been at Grace Life Church for just over 13 years. And yeah, as far as my convictions are concerned, I'm convinced that Jesus Christ is Lord. I'm convinced that his word is truth.

And so I've sought to build my life upon his word. And I recognize that Christ is head of the church, that he is the supreme authority over the life of the church. And so he is the one in his word that outlines how we are to worship, what's to be involved in corporate worship as a local church. And so those convictions were in place. And of course, when the pandemic began, and we were ordered to shut down our services right from the get-go,

there was a tension for us because on the one hand, we are instructed in God's word to submit to the governing authorities, Romans 13. on the other hand, we're also exhorted not to forsake the gathering of the saints, Hebrews 10-5. And so right from the get-go, we knew there was a tension and that there was ultimately a limit on the extent of our willingness to limit corporate worship in the context of our church. And so once we had given time for all the information to roll in and had assessed the severity of COVID-19 and had evaluated the, the pseudoscience the government was using to try and mitigate the spread of that virus, we were convinced that to continue to comply with the health orders that were in place,

we would be in disobedience to Christ. And so we opened our doors. And at that point in time, allowed our people to make their own decision. And so that's really important to understand here. Like, we never ordered our people to come back. We didn't try and guilt them into coming back. We just simply opened our doors and gave them the freedom to decide whether or not they were going to return to in-person worship. And, and, you know, for the most part, the majority of them did.

It took time for, for everyone to kind of return. And really, they did return when things began to really heat up with the governing authorities, because it was in December of 2021 that we had AHS and the RCMP attending our services, where they were actually on the balcony of our auditorium, our worship center. And, and so we have. had them coming to our services, and I began to preach very pointedly to the issue at hand. And in the midst of that battle, that's when our people began to come back with increasing resolve, and not just our people, but even others began to attend our church because they wanted the church to be open. They believed that the church ought to have been open,

because it's reflective of the lordship and headship of Christ over his church. I'm going to rewind you first. You covered a lot there. I want to go back to your university days. You mentioned you didn't grow up in a Christian house. You went to university after four years there or somewhere in that time frame. You're saved. What happens in university that, I don't know, opens your eyes?

Well, you know, my depravity, my sinfulness just began to deepen and deepen. And I was just going further and further into sin the whole way along. My conscience was testifying that the way that I was living was not right, but I would just kind of hit the snooze button on my conscience and go right back to it. And so I lived the nightlife, the party life of university and really tried to have everything the world could possibly offer me. I loved the world at that time. I loved so much about the world and wanted as much of it as I could get. And through that process, I had my conscience.

accusing me that my life was not right. I could see the effect of it upon my life, that it was destructive. And it left me coming up empty, that I was in pursuit of a joy, a happiness, a satisfaction in the world, effectively looking for love in all the wrong places, that I came up empty and longing for real, meaningful, lasting satisfaction.

And it's amazing because when I came to Christ, heard the gospel that he died and rose again from my sin. I knew that I was a sinner and believed on him. One of the most significant things that that I experienced beyond the experience of the forgiveness of my sin is just a sense that everything that I had been looking for in my life I had come to and found that that there was no gaping hole within me longing to be fulfilled. I had found the one that I was searching for the entire time. And in reality, I didn't find him. He found me and delivered me from my sin. And so finding the Lord Jesus Christ is the best thing, bar none, that's ever happened to me. You'll have to forgive me for a second because I'm like, how is it in university?

You talk about sin and depravity and all these different things. And this is, you might chuckle at me or you might be like, Oh, but I go like, that sounds like college. That just sounds like university, right? Like you're having the time of your life. And I guess I'm just, I don't know, I'm just kind of curious. Like, what is it in the time of your life? You know, when you're out from under your parents' wings,

you get to make your own choices. Yeah, you're making some stupid ones, but you're having a ton, you're having fun, and you're kind of going back forward. You've probably got a group of friends, and on it goes. When do you get kind of like side-swiped of like, you know, because I get the conscience. Well, I think I do. I just, I look at it and I go, I feel like there's a ton of college kids that go, and they just have fun, and they let loose.

And I can use all these different words. And I'm just trying to contradict a little bit, James, of, you know, like, I felt my sin and my conscience. And I'm like, oh, that's lovely. I go, on the flip side, I'm like, you sound like, you know, you've moved past it, which is fair. And I go, I'm just kind of curious because a lot of kids go to college and they're like, man, it's time to let loose. I got nobody looking over me. I'm going to go out and I'm going to have fun with my friends. I'm going to drink too much.

I'm going to sleep in too late. I'm going to skip class. I'm going to do all these things. And I'm just, you know, Jesus walks in, the door, boots it down and says, James, get up. You're like, oh, like, if that's fair, if that's it, that's fair. I'm just, I guess my curiosity is getting the best of me. Well, I mean, I, that's what I was telling myself.

I would wake up in the morning after a night out partying and would be guilty, feeling convicted about certain things and would just be going like, why do I feel like this? Am I not simply doing what I'm supposed to be doing? I mean, this is, I'm in university. I'm just living the life that I'm supposed to live. So why am I being bothered so much? And the fact of the matter is, I did not get the conscience. I mean, the conscience is something that we belittle culturally and have for decades.

So there was no real appreciation for what the conscience. is, what it's doing, why it functions the way that it does, its purpose. So I was just trying to hit snooze. I was uncomfortable. The guilt and conviction that I was experiencing was uncomfortable. So I just wanted to be away from it as quickly as possible. And, you know, Monday comes around Tuesday and you kind of forget and you move on and you do it all over again. So that's the light that I was living and just going further and further into the misery of that. You know, is there fun being had in the midst of it? Yes, there is.

Like, even legitimate fun, sure. But it was ultimately climaxing in destructive behavior that was not only destructive of myself, but of others. And my conscience was there to testify that that conduct was sinful and wrong. and it's a beautiful thing because without that conviction, you would have no appreciation for the need of Christ. You would have no reason to understand why Christ was even commissioned into the world by the Father. And so it's through that conviction that you realize,

oh, that's why Christ went to the cross and died. He went to the cross to atone for my sin, to make restitution for my sin that I would be forgiven in and not enter into judgment when I die. And then you can say, well, man, that sounds like really easy. So you just get to like live up this whole sinful lifestyle. And then you just believe on Jesus. You're forgiving.

And you're scot free. It's like, well, to truly believe in him, it's going to cost you your life. You're going to have to be willing to give up everything for him. You're not going to be able to continue to live the life that you were living that led you to him. When you come to him, you are going to be transformed. from the inside out. New desires, new heart, new affections, a hunger and a thirsting for righteousness.

He says, if any man wishes to come after me, he must deny himself, take up his cross, and follow me. So you've got to be willing to die for him. And really all of that just feeds into even the stand that we took as a church because we had to face significant cost in terms of what obedience to Christ required of us. now I assume

it was you know in hindsight I assume it was a pretty easy choice to make oh as far as as far as what we went through yeah in the last couple of years yeah I mean in the midst of it it was incredibly difficult I mean in the midst of it it was

I think quite possibly the most difficult season of life ever for me and so there's no question it was incredibly difficult It was difficult on every level. How so? Well, when you come under the oppressive hand of the government who has the power to be punitive in its punishment,

the intensity of that's massive. And what it puts your body through even, to be under that level of stress is taxing physiologically. mentally, emotionally. And so without a shadow of a doubt, what we went through was immensely difficult. And I wouldn't minimize that. But that said, on two levels, A, in comparison to what Christ suffered in my place, suffering under the wrath of God for my sin, I mean, we're talking infinitely less what I went through.

And then B, when you even consider that momentary light affliction in terms of the way the Lord has blessed our stand, I mean, yeah, it was, it was, it was, it was easily worth it, 100%. And any suffering that we offer to the Lord for his namesake, he's worthy of it all, all on its own. But even the way the Lord in his mercy and grace blesses, when you honor him, I mean, for sure, we would do it again in a heartbeat on conviction alone. We would do it. We would do it. When you had your 35 days, correct? Yes, sir.

When you had your 35 days in jail, I assume there was a lot of soul searching or prayer or what have you that went on during that time. because, I mean, I don't know. Did you know how quickly you were getting out? Was it like, hey, you're going to spend 35 days and we'll see you in 35 and not a big deal. And you can see the light at the end of the tunnel or was it a little more vague than that? Yeah, I had no idea for a couple of reasons. Number one, if you go back to February 2021, I really had no optimism that the whole COVID thing was going to go away. And it remained for quite some time after that.

So the COVID thing in my estimation wasn't going anywhere and my conviction wasn't going anywhere. So on that alone, I questioned how long I'd be there. Plus, in the whole saga of things, we had been taken to court in January of 2021 and ordered by the court to comply with the Public Health Act. and we we disobeyed that, that court order and held service the following Sunday. And so while I was in jail, AHS could have taken us to court, held us in contempt of court, of which I would have been liable to up to two years in prison, in which case my 35 days could have become longer. And for the record, your people need to understand this, that I was in jail for 35 days

because I refused to agree to my bail condition. So I wouldn't sign my bail condition. So in other words, I was arrested and the justice of the peace was ordering my release. He did not think that I should be imprisoned for what I had done. But the condition of my release was that I would comply with the Public Health Act. And I couldn't do that. That was the whole battle from day one. so I couldn't agree to my condition

because that would have meant that I would have gone out, held service and been in violation of my bail condition, which is a whole huge set of legal issues after that. So I was in jail for 35 days. All I had to do at any point during that time is say the word and my papers would have been done up and I would have signed them and left. So I was in a sense, they're on my own volition.

Yeah. Yeah, tempted every day. The circumstances that led me there were imposed upon me, and I think they were a violation of my charter rights, as well as just my freedom of conscience and religion. But nevertheless, yeah, I could have just said the word and been out. Was that, you know, day one, it's like not a big deal, I assume. You know, I'm acting like I assume this.

Maybe day one was worse than day 30, I don't know. but you're a father yes yes husband correct correct at some point you're going like like how long am i going to be here i assume i'm just assuming once again i'm just trying to put myself in your shoes and certainly you can talk to it but uh you know day one you're kind of like i don't know once again i'm just speculating and you can you can tell you tell it the way you know you live you live it out experienced it but day one it's like maybe like is this even happening day two okay day three all right day seven when is this ending day 14 why am i still here day 21 should i just take the deal and get out of here like i don't know like walk me because i mean like 35 days in the grand scheme

of things is a blink of the eye maybe even less than that but at the time you know husband father, no idea when you're getting out. Oh, and just agree to it, James, and you can come out. Like, I can just, I can see the deliberation that probably went on with yourself. Yeah, I would say that there wasn't any real temptation to sign those papers because I was there on conviction. And the conviction wasn't going to change or move. I mean, the integrity of the conviction had been tested for weeks leading up to that. So the conviction wasn't going to change.

And look, in all honesty, if it was going to require my very life, the conviction wouldn't change. If Jesus is the head of his church, then only he has the right to regulate the terms of worship. So any yielding to the governing authorities, any giving up of the headship of Christ over his church is compromise. And I just wasn't going to do that. So, you know, John Bunyan, I don't know if you've heard of John Bunyan. He spent 12 years in prison. And he was in prison for 12 years because the government was trying to limit the number of people he was permitted to preach to. he was like permitted to preach to something like five people but no more and and he refused and he was in prison for 12 years until his release

and where was the same conviction uh john bunyan um that's a great question um you know this is putting my uh my my historical theology to the test but i believe it's the UK it's England um so um yeah I believe John Bunyan was from Britain. So same conviction. John Bunyan's the one he wrote The Pilgrim's Progress. So have you ever heard of that? I have heard of that. Yes, I have heard of that.

He's the author of Pilgrim's Progress. It's a wonderful allegory of the Christian life. And I think next to the Bible, it's like the most sold book of all time. So Elstow, and I'm probably butchering that name, foist. Elstow United Kingdom. He is born in 1628. died at 1688's what's that 60 years 60 years I don't know why that took me

it's like math all of a sudden isn't anything I can do here folks but 60 years okay yep sorry just uh yeah I didn't realize you know I recognize the name and now that you say the boy I'm like oh yeah okay fair so 12 years for the limiting who he can oh man a government is an interesting thing isn't it well yeah so the issue that took place with COVID-19 is a reoccurring issue you like some of the circumstances change but the government's attempt to usurp the authority of

Christ over his church is one that's been taking place throughout the centuries and and so so the conviction wasn't going to change I mean that that was settled so and that would mean that even if my head was going to be lopped off for for keeping my church open well I mean I wasn't like I wasn't going to yield I would die for the Lord on that front so um so So anyway, there was no real temptation to sign truthfully. There were some moments where I was like, man, if there was ever a day when I would even think to sign, this would be the day. But that's just more to like express to my wife that, yeah, I'd like to not be here right now. But I would say there was no real temptation.

Now that said, toward the end, there was some, you know, just some, there was a, deal that was struck between my legal team and the crown prosecution. And there were some things that had to happen in the context of the court system. So we had to get a particular court date. And we could have gotten this one date, but it didn't come to fruition at times. Then we had to wait until Monday. So I was going to be there over the weekend. And so during all of that, it was pretty difficult because I was on the cusp of coming out. There was an agreement in place. I was agreeing to it. The crown was agreeing to it.

And that was going to let me come out and pastor my people, shepherd the flock. We'd still have to do it on the run. It would turn out because the government would ultimately lock up our building and change the locks. But I was going to be out of prison and able to shepherd the church that God had entrusted to me. So yeah, toward the end, I was a little antsy for sure. sure because I was so close to being out and had to stay over the weekend. But there was no real temptation to sign at any point. When you talk about, you're sitting there, standing on stage,

you're talking to your congregation, and you look up and you see H.S. And police officers there, are you going, well, I don't know, what are you going? Like, you got to be thinking, well, this is something else. Well, yeah, I would say this would be helpful for people to understand. And let me just say this. Like if you, anyone that wants the full detailed step-by-step story of everything that happened with dates and everything else, the most detailed rendition of that is in a book called God versus government.

And I've co-authored that with a guy named Nathan Boosnitz. And it tells two stories. One that happened in L.A. with John MacArthur's Church and their battle with the governing authorities, which they won and then our story. And there's also content in there that helps to instruct the church in the relationship between the church and government. But that aside for a minute, the Lord worked in this situation through my legal team

and everything else to allow it to really progress in a somewhat predictable manner. It's not like we were just having church doing life and then all of a sudden the RCMP were there i mean we we knew that this battle was was a possible um battle that was on the horizon so so we every step as things escalated it was escalating at a pace and and with some input from our our legal team that um that allowed it to be somewhat predictable if i could say it that way and uh and so It was December 13th that the RCMP was in our building for the first time with AHS,

and we knew they were coming. Like, we knew they were going to be there that Sunday. We didn't know the RCMP was going to be there. We knew AHS would be there. But the RCMP was with them. And so, and they were almost at our church every single Sunday between that and my imprisonment. So it was, you know, it was a fairly, we were on like first name basis with AHS as well as with, the RCMP and um and so it progressed it progressed you know predictably might not be the right

word but uh gradually yeah that's probably um you it's interesting the way you put it there because it's probably something missed to the general public you know the way the news cycle runs it doesn't catch the gradual progression right it catches the ultimate like, you know, as we sit, you've been acquitted, right? So that's big news. But like, it doesn't catch the months prior to getting to that point and the full story, which is interesting because I guess I, you know, the way you play it out, sounds like you're playing chess.

You know, it's like, well, listen, I can't go against what I believe because if I do that, I mean, how can I, you know, pretty much live, you know? and you go, okay, so where's that going? Eventually it leads to me going to jail. Like, that's the only way we go about this. Or the government decides, you're right, and you can hold mass. You can, you know, preach, and they're not going to do that. And they're showing that all over the place.

So this is where it eventually gets to. That's interesting, because I guess I, well, I find it interesting the level of peace you had with the entire process. And I'm sure early on in the stages, there had to have been a point where you're kind of like, I can't believe this is going on. But we play this game out. This is where I end. Well, yeah, I remember being on a call with, like, the quote-unquote faith leaders. And by the way, just for your audience, I'm a Christian pastor, so we don't do mass.

That's a Roman Catholic thing. Apologies. No worries. You're seeing the green in me, James. It's all good. I started reading the New Testament. What has it been, folks? Four months ago, six months ago.

You get the point. Relatively new. grew up in a Christian household, but did not read the Bible. Sorry, after I left, right? So when I joke about college and university, I'm just like going back to my days and being like, I get what you're saying, but anyways, so I fast forward. Where I sit now is, I've been reading the Bible,

and I'm more open to having a pastor on. I'm just like, well, let's talk to you. In saying that, I don't get all the terminology right. I certainly don't get all the breakdowns right. So yes, please correct me when I mess this up, because at the end of the day, I'm learning like everybody else. And, you know, all the different, oh, yeah, good old Christian faith has been an interesting thing to bring on the podcast because any time I have anyone from a different, I don't know, is it sect?

Is it different walk of it? I don't know. You can explain it better. And here I am trying to jumble around it. It's like, I don't know. But yes, apologies because I'm trying to get it right. Yeah, no worries. Let me just say this, and this probably needs a whole podcast on its own.

I would say that Roman Catholicism and Christianity are two different religions. Interesting. So there you go. Why? Yeah, well, because Roman Catholicism teaches. What am I supposed to do with that, James? I'm like, well, no, it's a great question. Yeah.

Let's push that to the side and let's hear it. Roman Catholicism teaches that a man or woman is saved by a combination of grace plus works. And so ultimately, Roman Catholics believe that their own righteousness is going to secure them a place in heaven. Whereas the Bible teaches that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. That it's all of grace, that works make no contribution. to salvation. And so it's by coming to Christ and repentant faith, believing on his death and resurrection, that God in heaven counts you righteous by the theological term is imputing, you could say, crediting the righteousness of Christ to your account. So that's fundamentally different,

because when you compare biblical Christianity to Roman Catholicism, that does. difference describes basically every religion of the world. I mean, every religion of the world believes in some kind of a works righteousness salvation, whether it's Islam or Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons or you name it. So there's basically two religions in the world. One is the religion of human achievement and that's going to be everything that relies on work be saved. And the other is biblical Christianity, which is by grace alone through faith, alone in Christ alone. In Catholicism, I hope I said that right, is there difference in, once again, I don't know if you can answer this, but Russian or Orthodox or is there a time back, if you go

far enough back, where it's more aligned with what you're talking about with the biblical, what's in the Bible, grace alone? Catholic, I can't even say it. I'm going to butcher it 12 times over James. But is it that more aligned or it's never been aligned? Well, I think what you have is you've got the New Testament church that you see described in the New Testament where you have the gospel being preached, the very gospel that I would preach to you today, which is the death and resurrection of Christ. And certainly in the centuries that followed, all the time.

the way until probably the medieval era, and I'm not a historical theologian, so you know, you're going to have to take this with a measure of a grain of salt, but until sort of the mid-eval era, I would say that the gospel was largely present. It was always present to some degree. It was never not present, but when Roman Catholicism began to dominate, that's where you began to have a fundamentally different version of Christianity. And it was the Reformation that, was the Protestant movement, the protesting against the Roman Catholic Church, which took place in the 1500s. And so it was under Martin Luther that the doctrine of justification, again, by grace alone, through faith alone, and Christ alone began to be proclaimed with authority.

And that goes right against the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, which is a combination of grace plus works. And so it was really under Martin Luther that the reformation began. That's when we had the Protestant Reformation. And so at that point, sort of in the development of historical theology, there was an incompatibility between biblical Christianity and Roman Catholicism. Now, that's not to say that the incompatibility didn't go all the way back to the beginning. It's just that, at that particular point, the Roman Catholic Church was clearly opposed to the gospel that Paul preached, to the gospel of the New Testament. And that gospel is the good news.

It's the good news of salvation in Christ. And so to have a different gospel, as Paul says in Galatians 1, is to be anathema, a cursed. anyone who brings a gospel different than that gospel that Paul preached, that Martin Luther declared that launched the Reformation, and that I'm bringing to you today as a cursed. I feel like I'm going to ask a really dumb question, but hey, what the heck? There are no dumb questions. I don't know when I get into a subject like this.

I'm like, I don't know. Roman Catholics and yourself and Baptist, and just on and on the line. All preaching from the Bible, are you not? Or am I wrong on that? That's a good question. I do believe the Roman Catholic Church has translations of the Hebrew and Greek texts that are distinctly Catholic. It's not like they're eliminating, sorry, it's not like they're eliminating, you know, I don't know, acts or Romans or parts of the New Testament out of their Bible, correct?

No, but the Roman Catholic Church adds what's called the Apocrypha. So that's like the intertestamental period between the Old and New Testament. And so there are documents that they regard as being authoritative that aren't, that are in addition to the Old and New Testament. So anytime you see, don't let me put words in your mouth. I'm just, you know, it's interesting. This is stretching me. I mean, you're putting me on the spy here.

hey, this is, you have every right to do that. Well, it's funny. I, I, um, we just, you know, what's, what's the scripture, James, about being like children, coming to, like, reading the Bible like children or coming to God like children or something like that. Something, am I, am I butchering that too? I don't know, folks. One day I'll get the scripture down. You're close.

Like Matthew, so Jesus and Matthew 18 talks about needing to become like a child to enter the kingdom of God. I will tell you that, I tell you the, I tell you the, truth unless you change and become like little children you will never enter the kingdom of heaven therefore whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven that that so to me i go like okay i'm trying to figure this up you know because every time i have on somebody from a christian walk of life which i would not have done certainly a year ago um i might even argue six months ago i'm like okay well i'm going to ask all these different questions because it's interesting to me. When I was in the middle of COVID and I had a guy like Peter McClellan,

I ticked off a lot of people. When I had, you know, Stephen Pellick and Julie Pennessy and different people from Canada on that spoke against it, I talked a lot of people. So anyways, we get through COVID, right? Because I mean, for the most part, and once again, I say this and I've just finished talking about, oh, Sheila Annette Lewis, she just passed away, and obviously I don't have words to even come to terms with that, folks. And obviously the Coots 4, we've been talking a lot about those, and you got Tamara Leach and Chris Barber on trial and soon be Pat King, and on and on it goes. And I don't mean to make light of the fact that there are things still going on from the COVID time era. just that to draw a similarity of when I was in the middle of COVID and I brought people on speaking out against it, it really spurred on some things.

And one of the new things that's been interesting me, James, is I come to the Bible and Christianity with open eyes, and I would argue I'm pretty green, right? Like I come in and I'm just reading and I'm trying to ask some questions. And what the funny thing is is I have torqued a lot of people. Now, not everybody, I don't mean to say it that way, but when you say Roman Catholic Catholicism isn't the way, I'm like, oh man, the phone line is going to be lighten up. And I hope people stay to listen because to me, I'm just, this is what I do. I just kind of pick, and I picked on Tim Stevens, and I picked on Steve Holmstrom before that, and I'll pick on the next one. And I tell you what, for the Roman Catholics, I'll try and get a Roman Catholic on. How's that?

Because I'm not, you know, to me, I'm like, well, let's have everybody in on this. But I find it really interesting that it's like, okay, so we're all reading the same book, right? Yes, we're all reading the same book. But they added something into that book. Well, why would they add something into that book? And I hope that makes sense because I'm just, once again, I look at it and I go, why can't you just pick up that? Because I, you know, here it is.

Okay, there it is, folks. Go read. Enjoy. Well, to truly understand the meaning of Scripture, you need to have the Spirit of God. It's the Spirit of God who illuminates the truth of His Word to the minds of His people. And if you reject the gospel, then you're rejecting the Spirit. You can't reject the Gospel of Scripture and have the Spirit at the same time. time. The spirit is the one that gives us new life. He's the one that opens our eyes to see Christ

in his glory. He's the one that gives us understanding of our sin, conviction of our sin, our need for the death and resurrection of Christ. So you have to have the spirit of God in order to be able to accurately understand the scriptures. And so from my vantage point, as offensive as this may sound, because the Roman Catholic Church does not have the spirit of God because they aren't saved, because they've rejected the one true gospel, they're not going to understand the means of salvation, the message of salvation, that it's by grace alone,

through faith alone, and Christ alone. And they've rejected the gospel of Paul? Yeah, so it's my understanding that in the Council of Trent, that they intentionally anathematized the gospel of salvation by grace alone through faith alone and Christ alone. they what was the word you used what was the word anathematized so

what does that mean it's to render something a cursed anathema it's um it's like um damned it's it's uh it's damning the gospel of of salvation by grace alone through faith alone and christ alone man i tell you what i'm i can already feel it coming

for when people listen to us and be like i'm just gonna have it anyways which is good because i'm like all right well let's get to the bottom of this because I I guess I don't I don't know I don't I've gone to church a little bit here sporadically over you know since I started reading but I would say overall I'm I'm big on like kind of one-on-one right at this point you know like let's read it let's see what it has to say when you talk about the spirit of God I'm like that makes sense to me it's like yeah man get get right with them I get that I find it interesting that you know like Roman Catholics

That's a giant, giant church. To say they don't have the spirit of God, isn't that like, I don't know, that's a big, bold statement, James? Maybe I'm wrong on that. Yeah, it certainly is. And you would have to be convinced of the authority of Scripture on this point. Jesus says, truly, truly, I say to you, unless a man is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. And he said that to Nicodemus. And Nicodemus was a teacher of Israel.

he was the elite of the elite. He was a religious man. He was fastidious in his keeping of the law. And so this man comes to Jesus by night, John 3, and Jesus says to him that he must be born again to enter the kingdom of God. And so what Jesus said to him in that moment was Nicodemus, all of your religion is worthless. All of your fastidious keeping of the law is worthless.

It counts for nothing. you must be born again. You need a radical transformation of the heart. And Nicodemus just cut to the quick. He's like, well, how am I going to enter a second time into my mother's womb and be born again? And Jesus says to him again, unless you are born of water and the spirit, you cannot see the kingdom of God. And it just shattered him. I mean, Nicodemus, everything he had built his life upon, all that he had built and committed to and everything else was a big,

fat zero. In fact, it wasn't just zero. He was in debt for all of his sin. And there's none righteous, no, not one. And so not only did all of his religiosity count for nothing, but he even had on this side of the ledger over here all of his sin. And the only way to have the righteousness required to enter the kingdom of heaven is to have a perfect record of righteousness, which means you must have your sin be forgiven and you must be counted righteous in Christ where his perfect righteousness is yours. And so Nicodemus was was shattered in that moment. And that's the same thing. I would say Nicodemus represents not just, you know, the Jew that rejects Christ, not just, not just the, you know, every,

expression of false religion in the world that's trying to establish a righteousness of their own, but it certainly refers to the Roman Catholic. And so, look, is it possible that there are some Christians, some truly born-again Christians who have trusted Christ alone for salvation in the context of the Roman Catholic Church? Yes, but if they are truly saved and have truly believed the gospel, they are terrible Roman Catholics. And they ought to leave that system and find a local church, that preaches the gospel.

And let me just say this. Just because a church claims to be evangelical or Christian doesn't mean it's a true church either. I mean, there are more church buildings in Alberta and in Canada and all the world than there are actually sound churches. The only way to know whether or not a church is a true church is whether or not the true gospel is preached in that place. And so anyway, it's not even. Look, Jesus said the gate is narrow and the way is narrow.

There are few that enter into it, Matthew 7. It's the broad way that leads the destruction, and there are many who find it. So the fact that the road is so narrow is of no surprise. Jesus made that abundantly clear in his earthly ministry. In the middle of COVID, were you then surprised that there was another church to step up Or were you kind of, you know, like when I hear you, you know, speak your mind, I go, or did it not surprise you at all? Were you kind of like, no, this is, you know, when you're not walking the walk, so to speak, it's easy to get, I don't know the word. Is it complacent?

Is it, you tell me what the word is? But I was just curious. Or were you surprised that nobody else? I mean, because there was people that stepped up. I don't mean to say there was none. Obviously, I literally just had Pastor Tim Stevens on, but just curious. Well, so like, so Tim and I are in the fellowship of a limited number of churches in our province that we would consider to be healthy churches. And so there's a network of churches in our province that fall into the category of a healthy church that preaches the word and preaches the gospel.

So when it comes to any kind of surprise or when it comes to any kind of surprise or when it comes. to kind of evaluating how churches responded. It's kind of those churches that I'm most keen on assessing and evaluating. And so to your question, was I surprised that more of those churches didn't follow in our footsteps? The answer would be yes, of course. Absolutely I am. I'm definitely surprised. And that doesn't even just limit itself to Alberta. I mean, this goes beyond Alberta, this goes, this goes nationwide, goes into the U.S. Am I surprised that there weren't more churches standing with us? Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. You know, from a guy just looking from the outside in during that time, I was a little bit surprised myself that more weren't standing just in general. I mean, like it's a giant community and they're telling you to stop, you know, preaching your faith and that's like you know as far as I can tell like that's that's a big chunk of this sucker you know like so it's it's been an interesting little time you know I I don't know I'm kind of curious now though with everything that's come to pass you know certainly I've seen I mean literally I'm talking about it again folks and I promise I once upon a time I thought I had

control of this ship and some days I wonder. But I go, as I chuckle about that, I go, after it's all said and done, what have you seen? Like, are you hopeful of the future here? Are you seeing dark times ahead? Have you, you know, as your congregate, you know, Tim talked about how the growth of his church. And that, you know, more I think about it, the least that, the less that surprises me. Well, I think one of the benefits of this season is that it has brought a lot of like-minded churches together. So, you know, talking about the network of churches, that's really broadened and expanded.

So just in the context of Canada, there are far more solid churches that would reflect convictions that are reflected at Grace Life Church here in Edmonton throughout our country. And so there are more churches that are, you know, would be supportive of us in our nation than I even knew. And it was COVID-19 that kind of brought all that out. So there is certainly some optimism. And for the churches that stayed open, we've seen growth and almost on a level that would constitute revival. And so certainly there's that. And then there's also, you know, a measure of optimism that those churches that we would still consider friends that didn't handle it the same way, that the next time the battle comes, that they'll take the right stand and side with us. Yeah, I think that's a hope of a lot of people, not just churches, right?

Like that seeing what everybody went through, everybody got their taste of it, no matter of the choice you made. and you just hope that the next time around, more people stand together, because if you do that, then it probably ends a heck of a lot sooner. Oh, yeah. Yeah, let's just say this. If Canadians across the board just said,

no, we're not complying, the pandemic was over. It was over. So there's no question that because Canadians were so compliant and were so, I would say duped by the mainstream media and the narrative that the pseudoscience, I would say, yeah, the pandemic lasted way longer.

So it's amazing because there are some in our nation that would look at me and say, well, it's your fault that lasted so long because you kept your church open. And I'm just going like, actually, like, if you just took a moment to step outside of the echo chamber you're in and actually looked at this more scientifically, you would realize that the reason we've been here as long as we have is because you're stuck in your basement. And if you came out and took your mask off and lived your life, we could actually just go back to normal a whole lot quicker.

Yeah, that's funny. All right. It's like, yeah, why don't you just come out of your basement, see the sun shining, breathe some of that crisp air and just go about your day and turn off some of that, mainstream media and you'd have no idea. You know, we were joking a couple episodes ago about, you know, the new, the new variant

or the new, I don't even know what they call. I've lost, I've lost all, I don't know, viewpoints or what have you of COVID and where it's at these days because I'm just like, if, when, if and or when they come and go, Sean, you need to, you need to wear a mask. It's like, well, no, just not really interested in that. and I'm going to carry on with life, you know. And it comes back to one of the earlier points we used to make in the middle of COVID. If it was self-evident, people are walking down the street and falling over dead.

People take care of themselves awfully quick, you know? Like it won't need to be mandated from the government. Like people will be like, what the heck is going on? And, you know, as far as COVID goes, you know, I just hope that's a mentality of a whole lot of people. Because we're realizing we're, you know, we all thought we were islands. And we're not. I mean, I always made the comparison. We are islands, but it's more of like an archipelago. You know, we're all a series of islands. And if you just realize the power of that, I mean, away you go. And none of this moves, well, it doesn't move any further than it has to.

You know, before I let you out of here, I wrote it down as soon as you said it. And then I've waited because we went into COVID things and different things like that. And I'm like, you said something and now I'm going to otherwise it's going to bug me until we talk again. And that's, you said conscious, and that not many people understand either it was the power or something along the lines of consciousness. And I was kind of like caught off guard by that. What is it, James, did you mean by that? Well, so God is the one that made us, and when he made us, he gave us a conscience. It's an internal court system that is there to evaluate our life.

and it's a good thing. Feeling guilt over wrongdoing is good and healthy. And I think for the most part, we've been taught to just kind of ignore the conscience. We've been taught to belittle it. We've been taught to violate it. And so I think we just don't really understand why the conscience is there. And it's a gift.

And it's, it's a, it's a God-given gift that every single one of us has. And, and that, you know, that guilt that we, it's like pain. You know, when we, when we feel pain, we pull back from that pain. The sensation of pain is, is there to protect us. So that if we, you know, put our hand on a hot burner and we feel heat and pain, we pull our hand away. Well, the conscience is the same thing. It's, it's to function in that way. It's to, it's to keep us from, from sin. And then when we have, when we have actually sinned and transgressed, it's to, it's to steer us, Lord willing, to him and the gospel. So, um, I just think that, you know,

even, even as you look at it, um, in the context of our court system, it just did not appreciate the place of conscience that I, could not violate my conscience. And so it was basically imposing a law upon me that was a violation of my conscience, but no room for that. There's no room for the conscience to be able to function. And furthermore, for Christ to be Lord of the Conscience. So in a sense, the government wants to be Lord of the Conscience and wants to tell your conscience, you know, what's right, what's wrong, and everything else. And it's like, no, Christ is, Lord of the conscience. And so the government has a role in responsibility that is to punish

real objective evildoing and to praise those who do good, Romans 13. So they've got a very limited role. It's been given to them by God and they're to do that. But when they get outside of their lane and begin to infringe on the very civil liberties there in place to protect, and they're doing that to try and somehow manage an invisible enemy COVID-19, inevitably they're going to end up running rough shot over conscience because they're meddling in affairs that aren't theirs to meddle in. Yeah, it's funny. I don't know if I would have put it in, well, I didn't know what you meant by it.

Now I completely get what you mean by it. It's funny, and in the beginning of COVID, you know, I even listened to Ice Cube when he was being interviewed by Tucker Carlson. And Tucker said, why didn't you get the shot? And he didn't, in my mind, James, he didn't really have a good answer. It wasn't like he was like, oh, I'd done all this research. And the boom, boom, boom, and just slammed it down. He's just like, well, you know, like kind of, yeah, uh. And then he, and then he defile it.

in my opinion he goes well did you get the shot and then Tucker's like well no I didn't get the shot and they start laughing he's like I know me either and it's you know it's just hadn't been proven or anything and and I was like huh for me if I go back to it long enough I go if they wouldn't have pushed so hard I might not I might have got I might have but something really deep down that I could not understand was like just something is something is just really I mean I'm interviewing Peter McCullen these people right but I mean just take that all aside. I'm like, something really feels off. You know, and I'm like, the one thing that really bothered me is I'm like, and I've heard this from most people, I'm like, is anybody else? You know,

I sit in this, this room, you know, and I certainly got lovely people around me, but I'm like, is anybody else? Anybody else, like, feeling a little bit off? And back then, you know, it's kind of, now it's the lines of communication, I would say, are being formed. So, and more so than ever. So you realize you're not alone. But back then, one of the things that, you know, got said an awful lot was I just feel alone. And yet when I think back to it, I just had like this pit in my stomach or what have you of just like, something is off. And I'm watching it unfold and I can't quite pinpoint it.

And when you discuss the conscience, certainly that is a huge part of it. Maybe the entire part of it, I'm not sure. Yeah, I mean, I think you look back at the government, being involved in, you know, vaccination and you're just, you know, you look at the way they handled everything up to that point in time as far as the pandemic was concerned. And I could look at that and I did not trust them there. Why in the world would I trust they have my best interest in view when it comes to a shot? So, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's fair. Well, let's do the Crude Monster, final question. It's nice and simple for you, I think. It's, what is next for James? And if there is a way, is there a way for people to help?

Yeah, well, so there's nothing really new and exciting for me, just continuing to do what I've always done, which is shepherd the flock at Grace Life Church, preach the Word. And so no really new and exciting plans on that front. we've grown immensely as a church. And so we would like to build a larger auditorium. And so there may be an opportunity to help us in that regard financially to build that so we can all worship in one service again. And it's not even just that. Actually, we don't even have enough classrooms for the kids that attend our church to have Sunday school for all the kids that come.

So we need more space. And that might be a way folks can help. But aside from that, there's really nothing new and exciting on the horizon, but just the lather, rinse, repeat, of ministry. Well, there's two things that come to mind, and I want to make sure we point these out. You mentioned very early on in our chat. You have a book. And two, the Essential Church documentary, which I believe is you can pre-order it in August 31st.

It was shipping to Canada? I can't remember what Shannon Halliday said. I believe you can. So that's one. How do they find your book? Basically anywhere. You can get it on Amazon. You can get it on basically anywhere.

And the title of it again, sorry, James? God versus government when Christ and compliance collide. Well, I appreciate you hopping on and doing this. And, you know, I kind of chuckled to myself. You know, James comes on. You know, this is going to be an easy. Well, I don't know. Maybe once again, maybe he's just.

having the time of his life over there. But here's Sean throwing, what feels like I'm like, I don't know, is this a slow ball? You know, like, did I just give you a, you know, a soft pitch down the tube or did I just throw a heater at your head? I have no idea. You know, it's like a kid running around, probably with a gatling gun or something.

It's like, you know, maybe I'm the most dangerous human being out there right now. Either way, I appreciate you coming on and being, you know, open to my questions and allowing us to kind of explore it, Because to me, it's another topic that needs to be discussed further as more people are exploring the Bible and everything else. Yeah, no, it's my pleasure, and I'm kind of finagling over here because my battery on my laptop's about to die.

Well, perfect timing then. Yeah, I know. Glad to be here, Sean. Enjoyed the conversation. It challenged me, and so I'm thankful for it. Well, until next time, sir, and I'll let you get out of here. Okay, good to meet you.