Shaun Newman Podcast - #500 - Jonathan Pageau

Episode Date: September 20, 2023

French Canadian icon carver, public speaker and YouTuber exploring the symbolic patterns that underlie our experience of the world, how these patterns emerge and come together, manifesting in religion, art and in popular culture. He's also the editor of the Orthodox Arts Journal and host of the Symbolic World blog and podcast. Let me know what you think. Text me 587-217-8500 Substack:https://open.substack.com/pub/shaunnewmanpodcast Patreon: www.patreon.com/ShaunNewmanPodcast

This is late and gray. This is Tanner Nadee. This is Donald Best. This is Granny McCoy. This is Steve Holmstrom. This is Viva Fry. You're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks.

Happy Wednesday. Now, let's just preface this right now, quick. If it's early, and you've turned this on bright and early, and you've forgotten, if you're around the Lloydminster area, at 10 a.m., there is, that's when the march starts. Sorry, the gathering for the march starts. At 11 a.m. is the march. about half an hour, 45 minutes, and that's all it is. So if you're in the area, today is September 20th, which means come on down and March,

there's going to be a whole group of people starting at City Hall. Anyways, if it's already too late, it's a different day, then let's stick to 500 for a second. You know, I'm reminded of J.R. Tolkien. As a kid, I read Lord of the Rings, and specifically the quote I'm thinking of comes out of the fellowship of the ring and he said it's a dangerous business photo going out your front door and i don't know why i'm butchering that i'll start again it's i'm making it my own it's a dangerous business photo going out of your door he used to say you step into the road and if you don't keep your feet there's no knowing where you might be swept off to and you know it goes a little further than that says

do you realize that this is the very path that goes through murkwood and then if you let it it might take you to the lonely mountain or even further and to worst places. I hope that's not foreboding because some days when it comes to this podcast, I talk about how I have zero control over it. You know, it goes where it wants. You know, episode 100 was, you know, was an achievement, you know, 100 episodes, Rahm McLean. And I know that triggers some people that name alone. But, you know, at the end of the day, that was an achievement. And 200, Glenn Sather and 300, you know, he had the UCP candidates on stage, which we knew one of them was going to become premier, which ends up being

Danielle Smith. And 400 was Tamara Leach, who right now sits in court in Ottawa, and we watch and honestly pray that the right decision is made in that courtroom. And so 500, with Jonathan Pajro, who I think a lot of us have

admired another Canadian, it's just, it's been an interesting road. You know, when I started out, I picked my name as the podcast, not because I love my name, not because I have this sleek, sexy look, whatever. I think we've done all right, by the way.

But because I knew if I put it as Sean Newman, the only one who getting harassed would be me. And I knew that if I wanted to change or shift gears, I could because it wasn't anything specific politics, hockey, culture. It doesn't matter all those words, whatever. Here, we're going to talk about life. We're going to talk about what's going on in society. And we're going to have some fun all along the way. and the nice thing about it is I can go whichever way I want to,

and you, the audience, have certainly played a giant part in that. You know, some days the phone is a lot to handle. Other days, it's one of the funest places to be because I get to interact with all of you and hear your thoughts and here are some guest suggestions that I would never get to because, believe it or not, I rely heavily on you guys not only to share what I'm doing, but to feed me who you think would be a great guest.

The thing about that is we have no idea where a guy like once upon a time getting fed Tom Luongo would lead to Alex Craneer and then them coming over here and being in Lloydminster. And honestly, that led to a sponsorship of Silver Gold Bull. That's the general, you know, so like I have no idea where this thing's going. I don't act like I know where it's going. I just go, let's go. I don't plan to, oh, this is going to work and then I'm going to get that and oh, I'm scheming. I go, man, this is an adventure of a lifetime.

500 in, I'd have no idea what the next 500 bring, but I tell you what, I'm excited to do it. I step in this studio every time, and I'm just like, like, come on. This is what I'm doing every day. You kidding me? 500 episodes. Ooh. And you guys have been right along there for it.

I was texting. I got a young guy hired. So shout out to Jack out of St. Louis. He's been doing some more. work for me and doing a lot of the social media because as you guys have heard from me for a long time. I'm not, I'm not big on that. I just, I want to, I want to talk to people. I want to, I want to interact with you via the phone because I feel like text or a phone call is actual human interaction, even though it isn't quite, but it's getting closer. And my goal for 2023 was a million downloads.

I'm not talking social media. I'm not posting on Rumble. I'm talking about people downloading it on Spotify, Apple, different podcast apps. And where I sit right now is I am 280,000 away from hitting that goal. And I'm telling you that, that is a feasible goal. You go, holy man, that's a lot. Think about it. We're closing in on 750,000 downloads total. And we have a little over a quarter of the year to go.

So this is doable. And I need your help to do that, which means you got the greatest guest connections or you got great guest ideas and you need me to chase it down, I want to hear about it. If you think I knock it out of the flip and park, I need you to share it. I need you to, you know, like the world is censoring everything right now. You say shoelace and somehow that's either racist or somehow it's medical and misinformation or whatever the word is or the world, the spot is, everything is getting censored. So the only way I can get things out is if I rely heavily on you guys and ladies for that matter.

you know we were making the joke earlier that uh something about mankind and you mean you mean person kind like yeah right right person kind anyways that's the the type of uh content you come here for but i look at it and i go when i started 2023 and i set the lofty goal you know it took three years three and a half years three in a bit i guess to get to a million downloads i was like okay can i get a million in a year and i just said yeah you can get a million in a year and i just said yeah you can get a million in a year shot okay and i don't talk about numbers a whole awful lot except i set that bloody goal at the start and i just checked the numbers because i got a young guy working with me and he said oh what would a number's been like and i'm like i have no idea so

right now 2023 is the best year ever i'm speaking downloads okay but i'm not happy yet i'm extremely happy all the time but what i want is i want a million in 2023 i don't care if it takes me to December 31st at the last hour. That's what I want. And I need your help to get there, which means when I'm doing great things, I need to share it. And when you think you've got somebody you want me to talk to, I want to hear about it. So that's what the text line is there for.

And I look forward to the next 500. I got no idea where this road goes. I sometimes get a little bit darkened or I think the world is heading in a dark place. But, you know, in the darkest times of my life, which would have been probably the last three years. I found all you. So heck, I'm not saying bring on the dark, but I'm saying at least I got some people that are thinking like me. I know they're out there. We're starting to come together. We're starting to see different things. We're starting to push back and all that great stuff. So if you got guest suggestions, I want to hear about it. If you know how to get said guest,

maybe put that in the text too. Because, you know, if somebody's sitting there going, hey, I could get you Jordan Peterson because everybody knows I wanted them for episode 500. then I'm looking right at you, even though I can't see you, but that's what I want. I want the best. And today with Jonathan Pazzo, I mean, we got one of the best in Canada again, you know, and Canada just keeps throwing these gems at me that are just fantastic. And a lot of that is your suggestions. So you got suggestions, I want to hear it.

You know my goal. 2023, I want a million downloads. That's what I'm going for. That was a big goal of mine that I set at the start of the year. I don't talk about it a whole lot. But I just looked at the numbers, and I'm on pace to be dang close. And with your help, I know we can crush it. So I appreciate you sticking around for 500.

I can't wait for the next 500. And I'm fired up on this side. It is a Wednesday. Let's go. Thank you all for being here, wherever you're at, to the farmers in the field, to whoever doing the dishes, to the oil guy or lady, for that matter, driving down the road, going to work, wherever it is.

Appreciate you tuning in and doing this and having a little bit of fun. And hopefully I'm giving you some thought-provoking entertainment, some informative discussions that help give you a better understanding of not only our world but our country and our province and maybe even your town. Now, before we get on to Jonathan Pazzo, let's get to today's episode sponsors. Guardian plumbing and heating, home of the Guardian Power Station, bringing free electricity to everyone as well as reliable off-grid solutions, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and beyond.

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We'd love to have you come and march to the highway with us in support of parental rights and keeping sexualization out of you know out of the schools. The deer and steer butchery. I was just in with Brian and Barry last week cutting up meat. Every time I do it, it is one of the funnest experiences of the year.

Now, I'm not sitting here saying I would do it every day. Sorry, boys. But I do find it just like super cool to watch when they are cutting things up and how it all works and everything. Like how it all works. It's just, it's really entertaining. And it's, you know, it's enjoyable work. So if you need any. Any animals butchered or in the case of the deer and steered,

they are also seeking a dedicated experience butcher to join them, not as an employee, but as a partner. Reach out, 870-8700. Erickson Agro at Irma, Alberta. That's Kent and Tosha Erickson, family farm, raising four kids, growing food for their community in this great country. So happy that I get to team up with community-minded folks. Silver Gold Bull, North America's premier, precious metal.

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expertise and unparalleled convenience, your prosperity and security are top priority, making silver gold bowl the go-to choice for all your precious metals, precious metal needs. Just head to silver gold bull.ca. Now, let's get on to the tail of the tape brought to by Hancock Petroleum for the past 80 years. They've been an industry leader in bulkfields, lubricants, methanol chemicals, delivering to your farm commercial or oilfield location. For more information, visit them at Hancockpetroleum.ca.ca. He's a French-Canadian icon carver, public speaker, and YouTuber exploring the symbolic patterns that underlie our experience of the world, how these patterns emerge and come together manifesting in religion, art, and in popular culture.

He's also the editor of the Orthodox Arts Journal and host of the Symbolic World Blog and podcast. I'm talking about Jonathan Pajot. So buckle up. Here we go. This is Jonathan Pajot, and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast today. I'm sitting with Jonathan Pajot. So first off, sir, thanks for hopping on.

Oh, it's great to meet you. You know, the way it worked from my side was I had Vervakian, and me and him had this chat. And after we sat and chatted for a bit, and I said, you know, I'd love to carry on this conversation. Who would you suggest? And he brought up yourself, and I was like, oh, all right, yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, this probably, you've probably gotten over this fact. but you're kind of like an internet, I don't know, I don't know the word to stick after that, but lots of people know exactly who you are.

And our book club has been watching the Exodus series, obviously Jordan Peterson and the Daily Wire putting that together. And so we've been discussing that a little bit. I haven't got to the end of it, so don't spoil anything for me. Don't spoil Exodus for me. Exactly. But regardless, I feel like most people know who you are. But if I've learned anything sitting in this chair for as many episodes as I've done, I never jumped to that conclusion.

So I want to get you to talk a little bit about, you know, who you are and maybe just, I don't know, some of schooling or upbringing or whatever you think sticks out in your early years to get you to where, you're on YouTube talking about all the things that you do. So, yeah, so I do have a very particular upbringing in a way that. is, I'm from Quebec, so I'm French Canadian, French is my first language. And I grew up in a home where my father was a Baptist minister who had converted from Catholicism. Quebec used to be one of the most Catholic places in the world. And then in the 1970s, the church kind of collapsed and people just exited from the church. And some people move towards evangelical Christianity, which is what my parents did. And so I grew up in that context, which is kind of a strange context.

It's like everybody in the church was a convert from Catholicism, basically. And so I grew up very much like in the Bible world and people who study the Bible and love God and everything. And then in my 20s, though, I started to ask a lot of questions about certain things and looking into history. And also with my brother as well, having some intuitions about the way that the way that the Christian tradition had functioned. And so anyways, we started studying traditional symbolism and traditional stories, and we really fell in love with that world. And I had studied to become an artist.

And so that also led me to becoming an artist in the church. So I make icons for churches. I carve icons out of wood and stone. And that was my job for quite a while until I met Jordan Peterson. And then Jordan Peterson, I started talking with him, because the ideas that I developed with my brother were concorded with a lot of his ideas. I was really surprised. This was before he was famous.

And for some reason, he kind of decided to throw me out there. And we started doing events together. And before he became Uber famous, we did like a whole series of events together. And that friendship has kind of kept me in the public eye in some ways. And so I took it seriously. People started writing emails, started asking questions. and I realized that a lot of people were struggling with meaning in their life. So instead of, and I didn't know what to do, so I thought, well, do what Jordan did,

which is make YouTube videos. And everybody was kind of doing that. So I started making YouTube videos. And yeah, so just one thing after another led to the situation where all of a sudden, you know, you have whatever, like almost 200,000 followers. And it's like, how did this happen? But we're in a strange time in history. People, it's a strange moment where a lot of things are changing.

So maybe that explains it. I'm going to rewind one of the things you said. You mentioned Catholicism and everyone switching over to evangelical Christianity, and that everybody in the church basically had switched from one to the other. I feel like I know parts of this. I've had different people from Quebec on before, but I feel like I'm, well, not missing something. I'd be interested to hear why that was.

Why did everybody switch from Catholicism? over to a different church, a different branch, if you would. Yeah, well, most people didn't do that. I mean, most people left Catholicism altogether, or most people became nominal Catholic. In Quebec. Yeah, in Quebec, they were like, no more of this. That's right.

These people basically, it's as if, you know, in some ways what happened in Quebec was happening all over the world in the 1960s, which was this kind of revolutionary thinking and revolutionary approach to reality. It's just that in Quebec, Quebec had held on so strongly to its Catholic heritage and to a kind of more traditional way of thinking and in some ways even over-emphasizing it in order to protect itself from the modern world. Then when the backlash came, it was massive.

And basically, in one generation, the church got pretty much eviscerated. When you talk about backlash, what do you mean? So, I mean, the way things work is you can. understand that whatever action causes a reaction, you know, that's just how it functions. And so one of the things that happen in the modern world, let's say during at the Enlightenment, it probably started before, but let's say it started getting stronger in the Enlightenment is you have this kind of pendulum that starts to swing. You could call it like a pendulum between centralization and decentralization. You could call it a pendulum between order and chaos. That's how Jordan

talks about it. And so what you have is you have movements that are more and more revolution in order to kind of break down the traditional structure. Then you also have movements which counteract that. We have movements which resist to that. And to resist to that, they have to become stronger. So you have, you know, you think about the move between the French Revolution and Napoleon. So you have this like anarchism that sweeps in. And then you have centralization, which comes back and kind of takes control.

So you have this pendulum which swings all through, all through history, especially. since the Enlightenment. And what happened in Quebec, and not in Quebec, but in Ireland and in other places, is that the Catholic Church was trying to resist a lot of what it perceived to be the kind of madness of the modern world and this kind of anarchism and this breakdown. And so it became extremely invasive, you know, all the stories in Quebec that you hear about priests going around house to house, you know, and watching how many children women had. And if they, if they gone more than one year without a child, they would like go knock on the house and say, you know, madame so and so, you know, you're not encouraging the family,

trying to get them to have more children. And so the Catholic, the Catholic Church held this, this grip on Quebec society. Suffocating power. Yeah. But one of the problems, and this is, I mean, this is the problem with Quebec in general, and it's not just Quebec, it's everywhere that you have this issue is that then the the the the revolutionary types the more marxist the more leftish leftist types they they created this monster it's like the catholic church and we're going to basically sweep it aside we're going to we're going to revolt against the catholic church but the problem is that the catholic church is just us it's like the catholic church in quebec was

your uncles and your aunts and your cousins that's who the catholic church was and so now it's still very strong like the french canadian still have this vision, like the Catholic Church did this to us. But it's like the Catholic Church is nothing else than French Canadians. There's nothing else than, like I said, there's nothing else than the people of your own family. And so until French Canadians are able to reappropriate the things that they did to themselves, we're just going to keep playing this weird pendulum of centralization and decentralization. The French Canadians still act. Like, look, if you look at what happened in COVID, it was, it was insane.

Like, the French Canadians are just sheep. And now they're just, now, you know, the premiere was basically our little pope. And everybody, he was like, Daddy, right? He was like, the daddy of our culture. It's like, Daddy Premier. And we're all going to just follow whatever he says. And we're all just going to fall in line, like little sheep. And so it's like, nothing has changed.

But it's like this anyways, I don't know why I'm talking about that so much. But it's like, I have this annoyance at, at, at, uh, at French Canadian culture. And the thing is that once it's flip, when it switches, it switches like, it's not going to stay the same forever. So I don't know what's going to happen. But when the French Canadians flip, they like flip in the whole thing,

that they vote for Block Quebecois at the federal level until they don't. And then the one year that they don't, none of them do. And you don't even know why. It's like this like massive sheep culture. I don't know. Sorry, we're off subject here. No, no, I, I appreciate your thoughts because one of the things I think, you know, when you talk about the 1960s and, and like basically the, you know, we're done with this and we're going to have a big revolt against the Catholic Church, you know, like, well, I was an 80s baby. And I just think of Western culture in general.

I can't speak to Quebec. I've been there. I think once or twice in my life. It's a beautiful province. I was surprised because you out here in Alberta, you know, you get taught to hate the Quebecers. and everything else, and I'm being a little tongue and cheek, but not that much because, you know, but at the same time, like, you get out to Quebec or Ontario, for that matter, and you realize how beautiful our country is and, like, how wonderful the people are and on and on and on.

But one of the things I've felt over the course of my life, and I'm, you know, I'm only 37, but for sure the first 26 years, I thought I had it all figured out, which is probably a very standard thing for most young men, right? Right. But in Western culture, there was just no emphasis put on church, the Bible, even though it's like the underpinning of a lot of our culture. And I just didn't realize any of that. So when you talk about just even Quebec moving away, Quebec is a big part of Canada. Like they hold a big stick. And even though the culture annoys you, out of here we look at it and we go like they hold this giant stick that gets to whack Trudeau. around whenever they want to. And we're all in the admirer.

We're like, how is this a thing? You know, because as a young Canadian out in the West, I go like, we got our own thing. We should also be carrying a stick. We could probably pick up a stick if we want. I know, Danielle Smith certainly trying to. But in the course of the last seven years, I guess, Jonathan, what I'm getting to is I stumbled on Jordan Peterson. And then I stumbled on a guy like you.

And then I started actually reading the Bible. And you started going back almost when you talk with the pendulum swinging. I see the pendulum swinging back to people. You mentioned people struggling with meaning. And where do you find that? And I assume, you know, when you get into your carvings and your symbolism and everything, there's a whole lot of meaning held up in those things. I mean, I think that there's no way for Western civilization besides Christianity

to whatever solve the meaning problem. I just don't see it. You can't make it. you can't make up a bearing. Like you can't make up your guiding star. You just can't do that. And as, you know, and I see it here. Like in Quebec, since we're talking about Quebec, it's interesting.

It's like, you know, we moved against the Catholic Church. Like, we kind of got rid of it. And the French-Canadian culture was very strong, like our history in terms of faith and in terms of, and if you read the story of Samuel de Champlain, for example, like just how strong a man of faith. he was and how much integrity he had. You know, we have some impressive characters in our history, but now we can't even, we can barely talk about them anymore

because faith is so strong a part of what they were, you know. And so we're stuck in this problem where, you know, Quebec moved up from Catholicism into nationalism, but you could have predicted that that nationalism was going to last one generation and then would just vanish. And there would be nothing to hold, because nationalism is not enough to hold. your meaning. And so Quebec went from Catholicism to like massive nationalism to now basically, I would say, you know, it's like our cultural output is basically comedians and circuses. You know, it's like that's who we are. We're basically Sik Tzu Saleh and a bunch of and a bunch of like stand-up

comedians. And that's what that's what's left of our of our culture. There's not much left. And so you can see it kind of breakdown. And so the idea that once you put aside the transcendent, you know, things fall apart pretty quickly. And it happens, like I said, it doesn't take very long. It takes like one, two generations. And then it's pretty much over. Do you think you mentioned that, and maybe I got this wrong, you said faith is so strong

with some of the stories of generations past with the French, correct? That faith and the church, I'm not even Catholic, by the way, just to say that. I don't have allegiance one way or the other, but the Catholic presence was not viewed as negative by the French Canadians for the first few hundred years of their story. And it was a very strong component of their identity and their capacity to survive such a harsh environment at the beginning. It was a huge part of their life. Well, you think to be living here in our country, you can understand like there was, there was probably like, listen, this is how things are done. It was probably relatively strict

living arrangement, you know, like, because if you got out of line, you literally died. That's right. This place isn't like, and I'm sure Florida has its problems. I'm sure it does, you know, crocodile snakes. I could probably go on a few different things. But regardless, the weather eight months of the year ain't trying to end your life. And as we all know up here, you know, it hits this time of year. We just had a plus 25 day yesterday.

And it was like no wind. And we're all like, well, this is, well, enjoy this, right? Because like, you know, we all know. I hate to even talk about it. It's like on the podcast you start talking, spring is here. I can't. I'm so excited. And then I'm like, oh, man, do it.

Am I saying? Like, it felt like winter last. night, no, better not throw that out into the world and let them feel that, you know. But we all know here in Canada, you know, it's one of the amazing things about, honestly, the Freedom Convoy that went to Ottawa is that it happened in the dead of winter. That's the worst time ever to be driving on the roads. Everyone's like, now just stay home, right? And so when you go back to the, you know, a couple hundred years ago, I agree, John, like,

honestly, you go, they probably had strict rules. And there was probably reason for that because majority of this country, wanted to kill you in one way or another. Yeah, exactly. And that one of the things that definitely held them together was their faith. That is for sure. One of the things that kind of kept them capable of going through the harshness of the world that was presented to them. And so that's a, I like that thought because, you know, it's funny.

Every generation has its inflection point. I don't know exactly what to call it. have your own thought. I was listening, you know, I go back to, I've been, you know, you get listening to you guys. I'm like, okay, I got to write down some notes on a couple different things. And it was, it was actually, I can't remember if it was Jordan or one of the other panelists on the, on the group, had said every generation needs a war to sort of what's important, or maybe it's moral equivalent. And I was like, wow, that's a, that makes a lot of sense to me. And so when you talk about faith is so strong, and then you talk about how, how they probably need their faith to hold them

together, I look at the last couple of years and I see, you know, I look at myself in the journey and I would say the podcast listener, you know, when I first started out talking, you know, you can see the jerseys on the wall, I was talking strictly hockey, you know, Don Cherry and Ron McLean and Glenn Sather and Oilers winning cups and, you know, and this and that and everything else. And now to be in talking to Jonathan Padro, it's like, what am I doing? But I see this whole trend of people, I bring it back to the struggling with meeting. I didn't realize. it at the time. Then I went and saw Jordan Peterson live well before, probably on his rise, but I mean, compared to where he was the last time he was M-intended at Rogers Place, he was just in

some hotel. And some of the things he just said, you're like, oh, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And one of the things I see happening right now over the past three years is the world's gotten a little bit crazy. I'm not saying it has not always been crazy. I'm just saying right now, it is upside down. It is a little bit insane. And I think what's starting to, hold people together is their faith because every time you think it can't go a little further it gets weirder and crazier and madness and so maybe like for the people listening to you can help them understand a little bit about that and or a little bit about because when we say something like if i say something like people's faith kept in together it sounds like a nice sentimental statement

and uh this this is nothing to do with this that kind of sentimentalism you know human beings function through care. That's how we function. That is that we move towards the things we care about. You know, that's as true when you drink a glass of water as it is true when you're taking care of your kids, as it is true when you vote, right? Everything that you do is bound in care.

So you notice something that's important, something that you care about, then you move towards it, and then you resolve that care, right? You join with the thing that you're moving towards. Now, humans figured out, over a very long time, that that scales and that unless you put something above the cares of the everyday, things don't work. So if all you care about is money, then you're going to end up

fighting over money, right? If all you care about is the economy, it doesn't, it's not enough to hold things together. And so that is one of the reasons for religions, is that religions place care above this worldly concerns. It says there's something above everything, which is holding everything together. And that is that the thing that you should at first of all care for. And then everything else kind of comes down from that. And if you care for something which is secondary, like I said, even if it's your family, even if it's your nation, even if you care about that the most, more than anything else, then things will. devolve, things will start to break down because it's not enough to hold it together.

And so that's why if you, and so what happens is, like, if you look at a short history of Western civilization, we're like, what's this weird God thing? We've got this God thing in these churches that are higher than all the other buildings, you know, it's like they ring bells and we, you know, they call us to attention and we celebrate our weddings. And so it's like, that's what the role that it was playing. It was the place to gather you together. It's like we come together in the church to celebrate all the important things and to to kind of remind ourselves that we're supposed to submit ourselves to the source of everything, which is infinite love. But then people are like, that's just stupid superstition. We don't need that.

We just need our nation. Like, we just need our ethne. And then things start to devolve. And then when that happens, like we just need our ethne and then world war. Oh, okay. Well, we didn't think that that was going to happen. How do we deal with this world war thing? And then it just keeps devolving.

And then it's like, well, maybe it's just economy. Like we don't really care about, it's not so much about nation. It's just about making money. And so as the care devolves, things start to like devolve. And ultimately people are like, well, money and then entertainment. It's like, let's just stay distracted. Let's put all our attention on things that keep us distracted. And by the time the wheel finishes turning, you're basically in a carnival.

and everybody's just watching porn and playing video games and eating junk food and nobody knows and everybody is depressed because they have no higher attention, no higher care, which is binding them. And so people like Jordan is like, okay, let's rebuild it from the bottom now. Right. Let's let's start. So you're just sitting around, you know, whatever. How is it what Jordan says is like covered in Cheetos dust, you know, playing your video games, overweight, you know, depressed, all that stuff. Right. So let's start by making you care a little bit about something more. Right. It's like let's give you a bit of discipline. Like let's just try to make your bed. Try to order things around you. Try to think that's important. Care for beauty. Care for little things. Then care for family. But that also scales up too. And it's like you realize if you start to build that, it's also not enough. Like if you try to hold on to, obviously when Jordan says make your bed, he knows that that's not enough to sustain you. But it's like a little. step to build up. Obviously, if you stop and make your bed and you think that'll be the purpose of

your life, you're going to fall back down in your dust, Cheetos doth really fast. But it's like you can scale up. And what humans realize is that that scales up all the way towards something like the transcendent, something like, you know, the infinite good. So you have all these little goods that are fine, but they're not enough to hold you. And you keep looking up. And then ultimately, you realize that, you know, it's like the love for another person, the love for your children, that kind of sacrificial love, that's one of the highest ones. It's the image of that even higher love, which you can attain, which is basically facing the source of everything and kind of being, recognizing it and having gratitude towards it. And that's actually what holds the world together.

Yeah, it's, it's a healthy addiction almost, you know, like you talk with the Cheetos and the porn and the video games, that's an addiction. It's just taking you to a place you shouldn't go because once you're there, you know, you're going to wake up one day and like you say covered in Cheeto dust and playing, I don't know, 12 hours straight and your eyeballs want to fall out or whatever else. And one of the things about just having a little bit of discipline, making your bet, going for a walk in the morning, is you get this, you get this like, and I need somebody who's the scientific side of this to just be like, this is what it's doing to your body. But you get this feeling that you haven't had and you're like, oh, I like that.

How do I get more of that? Wow. And then it starts to progress. And I think of, I think of like a staircase. The only thing is, you know, that you don't realize, and the only way you realize is it by getting booted down the staircase a few times is it isn't like you just take a walk up and you're on, you know, the 10th and then it's the 11th. It's like, you hit the 8th and you fall down five and you're like, that hurt.

That really hurt. don't know if I want, I didn't see that coming. And then you got to pick yourself up and you got to do it all over again. And then you may get to the 20th and then you may fall all the way back down again and it may hurt all over. Anyways, you get the point and you're laughing at me because I assume you agree. But it's not just that. And it's not just that is that in some ways, in some ways saying it's an addiction is, is I understand where you're saying that, but it's difficult because the problem with that is that it's not an addiction ultimately. What I mean by that is, you know, it's like the way we, we talk about theology, sometimes people think it's just arbitrary, right? It's like,

but the way that we describe theological things, it's actually quite coherent. So people say something like God will never, God lets you have your free will. God will not take away your free will. And that's like, that sounds like just a nice statement, but it's more than that, which is that the things that are the best for you require your effort. The things that are the worse for you are the ones that become addictions. The one, and the thing about an addiction is that an addiction is something that is ruling over you. Right. That's an addiction.

And so it's actually, you're submitting yourself to something. And then that thing is ruling over you. And so in some ways, it's easy because it's, it just, I mean, just follow the pattern, right? Just stay shackled. It's a lot easier to stay shackled. But being free, you know, and moving up is always. hard. It's not easy. Loving your family, loving your neighbor, you know, loving, loving your spouse for a long time, it is going to be hard. It's not going to be an addiction. And that's why it's so easy to

fall back down because whatever it is, that bottle that that just like that that that that cycle that that they manages you that takes over your life, that's easy. I guess I'm gonna push on it just a little bit. Yeah, go for it. Because when you talk about an addiction having hold of you, I actually really agree with that. I guess when I started, I haven't got through, I'm gonna be, you know,

Jonathan doesn't realize this, folks, but obviously all of you do, I'm on Galatians right now. So I started in the New Testament, I'm working my way through. Anyways, what I read is, you know, I agree, I don't love the term addiction, but anyways, sticking with, with that term. When I say a healthy addiction, you know, you're submitting yourself to Jesus,

to God. Yeah, you're becoming a slave to, you're becoming a slave to God. But the problem that, is the problem that becoming a slave to God is this annoying slavery, which is that God leaves you free. That's the, what's annoying with that slavery. It's like, you wish that God would just take your free will away and say like, you know, it's like, I want to smoke. God, just make me stop smoking. God, please, just do that. Like, I'm your slave. I'm, and God's like, well, you know what? No. It's like, I will help you. I will guide you. I will pull you up. But in the end, you got to put that elbow grease in because I want you to be free. I don't want you to be. So the slavery, we are obviously slaves to God. But it's a weird irony,

the way that St. Paul talks about it too. You know, it's like it's not, it's a type of slavery that ultimately sets you free from all the other things that enslave you. you know and so but that that that that's what i mean i guess it's a type of slavery that set set set you free from all the other ones yeah right like it that's that's that's that's a that's a i think that's a beautiful way of putting it honestly yeah you're not you can't be free you can never be totally free in the sense of self-naming you know like the way that people think they can do now and just self giving yourself your own authority and your own it has to come from above that is necessary uh but it but it's it's harder it's more like running a race right that's why

St. Paul talks about it that way too. And Christ kind of gives it both. Like he says both. It's like in the one hand, it's like carry your cross. And then on the other hand, he says, my yoke is easy. It's like, okay, so which one is it, Jesus? You know? And it's hard because it's both at the same time.

It's like if you kind of give up your, if you give up the things that bind you in the world, you get this lightness, right? You kind of feel light. But it's also hard to do that. It's not easy to give up those things that hold you down. I'm curious, you know, I'm curious, how closely did you follow Ottawa? You mean, what, the trucker protest?

Yes. I mean, I went there. Okay. Well, then, okay. I mean, I went, I went, we did two, like when we went all the way to Ottawa, the other one, we kind of encouraged people on the road. So it was like two, two days that we got involved. I'm interested your background, your thoughts on it, because this was a very emotional time, lots of different things going on.

And Ottawa sent me home licking my wounds in a bunch of different senses. Not in the sense that it was like I got beat up or anything like that. It was like anyone who was there experienced all these wonderful things. Like, you know, when they talk about bouncy houses and kids playing hockey and, you know, and just peace and love and, you know, like one of the cool things for me, I tease you about Quebec and kind of what I was taught, you know, like you had Quebec and Alberta meeting up with their flags and taking pictures and just like, you know, everything else, all the feels. But one of the things I was not ready for was the symbolism and I didn't even understand half of it, you know, like the pilgrimage I call it. across Canada through the worst weather ever to meet in Ottawa, to stand protest in front of all these giant buildings and the unison of the horns and the just I don't know and on and on and on and went and I was just curious you know is what I am talking about there's nothing there or when you hear you start

to rattle it off you're like oh no like the power of symbolism in what Canadians did during that time would evoke X, Y, Z, I don't know. Yeah. So I think that the way that the truckers conducted themselves in general, I think, was in the right manner. Because one of the problems with protests sometimes is that it can have a revolutionary taste. It can have a revolutionary whiff to it, right? If you look at Antifa protests, for example, after Trump got elected in the U.S.,

I mean, they were trying to take federal buildings for months. It was a revolution. And they created independent zones and, you know, like that we're not in the United States of America and all this stuff. So that's the danger of protest is that it has a, it has a revolutionary whiff. And that leads nowhere. That leads to chaos. That's for sure. And one of the things the truckers had was they didn't have that revolutionary tins.

They were like, we are Canada. and now we're going to remind you of what it is that is important to us. But we're not going to do it in a way that's going to try to overthrow the government, despite what Jagmeet Singh says, despite the nonsense that the media says. There was none of that there. It was all like, we're just going to make noise, and we're going to remind you of what is Canada. And it was done with a love for country.

It was done with actually quite a bit of patriotism. And I thought that it was actually quite masterfully done. And in that sense, it played a kind of, it did have a kind of ritual aspect to it. Something like, you know, something akin to Moses going to see the Pharaoh and saying, let my people go and saying, I'm not going to revolt against you. The Israelites are not going to revolt against you, Pharaoh, but let our people go. And that's what God wants. That's the truth.

That's what's true. And I think that that was, you know, I think that the trucker's insights about what was going on with especially the VACs passports and the push toward these types of measures. They understood very clearly what is down the road from that, which is social credit systems and what happened in China in the last decade. And they're like, that's not Canada. We do not want that.

And so I think that that's, I think that all of it was quite admirable. And I, and I think that like you said, the tone of it was, was perfect because it was, it was like, we're angry, but we're not out of control. Right. We are, we are going to manifest this, but we're not going to break things. We're not going to do all the things. And it's crazy because, you know, this is where you see just how distorted. our media landscape is. And because, you know, during Obama's time in the U.S. and then during Trump's time in the U.S.,

there were massive riots all over the United States, like cities burning, buildings burning. You know, like I said, neighborhoods getting taken over. And the media is just like, this is fine. Like, this is actually fine. This is all good, right? What is it? What was the thing? It was like burning but mostly peaceful protests.

I remember, I forget what he said, the guy, which was just insane. And so that is not what the trucker protest was. I mean, I'm sure there were a few strange things that happened. People, a few people maybe got too drunk or whatever. And when I was there, I even saw it. Like, I even saw the media, you know, like they're focusing their camera. They're trying to find something. And obviously there was always something to find in the corner.

corners and the details, but the general feeling of it was, was not that. So, so yeah, so it's, it just shows you just how distorted the landscape has become when something like that could be represented as a, as a horrible, like, revolutionary, violent thing. It's like, there's nothing of that there. I wanted to throw a thought at you this morning and I, I, I, because I agree with everything you just said. And, and it was a dog, I can't remember if I can't, I can't, I should listen to it again to know if I'm getting the name right you can correct me is it dr. Oz Guinness yeah he had said different festivals over the the course of history looked at you know participating in in summer fall they they mimicked

certain things but the one that that stuck out to me and I was wondering about you know because you've experienced it was he said something along the lines Jewish festivals were festivals of history where they taught them to follow as if they were there. And one of the things that I've been curious about with the Bible, and once again,

take me as an amateur or as a very green, and I'm just looking at it. You know, I look at so many stories as just stories. Nothing else. They were just a,

somebody had an adventurous mind, you know, I think of Tolkien and Lord of the Rings or, you know, the second part of the Dune movie is supposed to be coming out this year, you know, Harry Potter,

etc., etc., etc., I'm not saying go buy a wand and go have it, folks but I'm just saying you know one of the things that about most stories even if it happens on the other side of the world I rarely participate I went to my first protest ever in the middle of COVID rate you know probably a few months right before before the convoy happened and so for most of us we don't participate we read we watch etc how important do you think participating and

how transfer transformational of an experience can that be when And you know, you follow history as it's taught to be. Because one of the things I saw play out in Ottawa was, you know, people praying. And it being normal. And I was like, this is, you know, this is not strange. I mean, I have tongue and cheek, Jonathan. I mean, but, you know, like, and then there was just different things happening. You said the word that as soon as he said it, felt very ritualistic.

And I don't mean it in this, like, cultish way. I just mean it in like normal world. We have rituals probably all the time. You could probably argue the drive to morning work is a bit of a ritual. And you probably have your rituals in there. I bought a hockey player, had my ritual of how I got ready for games, et cetera, et cetera. Just from a spiritual sense or a mystical sense or whatever the word you want to attach to it, I felt like the drive to Ottawa in around Ottawa, that really played out.

And I didn't know how to make sense of it. So ritual, like it's very, I think maybe helping you understand ritual and the difference between ritual and like you said, something like entertainment. Ritual is participation. That's what ritual is. And we tend to think and think that's weird because we think often, a lot of people think that informal relationships are the most real, right? It's like if it's too ritualized, then in some way it's stilted. It's not real. But that is actually not, and that's not how we, that's not how we experience reality.

The most real moments of your life will usually be ritualized, which is like your wedding, a funeral, you know, even the birth of your children and the idea of naming your children. All these are rituals that we engage with. And so rituals are compressed versions. of events. They're like compressed things that make them, that you can engage with them in a way that you know you're joining in

with a bunch of people at the same time. And so it's like when I get married, I know that I am not just, I'm participating in an ancient thing. And I'm joining in with my parents and my grandparents and my great, great grandparents and participating in a celebration and with others that they all recognize

what is going on and what is happening at this moment. And so that is, let's say, that is what ritual does. And so when people come together in groups towards a single purpose, they necessarily have to function with ritual. Right. There's no other way because we have to move together. And so if we don't move together, then, I mean, think about it. You said you like hockey. Like hockey is a highly ritualized form of a highly ritualized event.

If you go see a hockey game, everything about it, it will be ritualized. The players coming on to the ice, the way they're introduced, everybody knows how it goes, and there's this whole thing, and you do the wave, and there's these different chance. And so it's like you set up this way to be together so that we know we're together, and we're not just like a disparate bunch of people. And so what happened at the trucker protest, like as every time people come together and join together in unison, that a certain rituality had to manifest itself. Sometimes it's like purely emergent.

Sometimes it's not even planned. Like we don't, sometimes it's planned, but it doesn't always have to be. It's just necessary for, so there are certain images, certain things that now you'll remember about the trucker protest. And usually those are the aspects of it which in some ways are ritualized because they,

can I say this? They're the things, they're the moments where everybody was together and everybody was chanting together, everybody was facing together, and there was a great speech, and we're all kind of in breath listening to this inspiring speech. And so these are,

that's just how human beings function. That's how meaning is inevitable and part of our everyday life. Would you say then? Because, like, I mean, I'm not the only one who thinks Ottawa left a lasting impression. I would say anyone who attended, it comes back, a changed person from experiencing something like that.

So, you know, when you lay it out, I'm like, oh, yeah, like, you know, I go to a good wedding. And my wife would be the first to tell you, I can't control myself. I, like, really enjoy it. It's just, it's such a happy place. And when you say it's an ancient thing, I go, yeah, like, that makes complete sense. So I wonder then, is it like a lack of healthy rituals? Or I don't even know if there's such a thing as an unhealthy. I sure there is.

But is it a lack of people in the Western culture, Canada, Alberta, Quebec, I don't know. Is it a lack of rituals that when we find out of rituals that when we find out of finally got to Ottawa. It was like, what is this? Like, I can't even recognize this. I can't put my finger on this because we pulled so many of that, so much of that out of our society. Am I wrong on that? No, I think you're right. I think that in some ways we've lost the power. We've lost that, we still have it. You can't avoid it, but maybe we don't use it enough, like the capacity to ritualize our world in order to create moments, like marked moments. you know and so that's a way to understand what ritual is like imagine it's just a qualified moment

it's like you because you're all there's all these things going on like I'm fidgeting and moving my hands and doing all this stuff and so it's like if you want to mark a moment you have to ritualize it and that's as true about a family dinner right or brushing your teeth or whatever it is that you mark it's like this is what's going on now it has to be marked with something which is which can be remembered in order. And so that's what you need. And so the, like you said, if people went to Ottawa and then they didn't quite know what was going on, but, you know, I don't think that, how can I say this? I think that there's aspects of ritualization that you probably, maybe you didn't notice because they were so obvious to you. But, and you can see it, like if you think

of how meaning works, right? Think of how the, the Canadian flag. was so prominently displayed, which is something that in Trudeau times has actually been diminished. And during the national holiday that year, I think that the flags were actually banned from Ottawa, if I remember correctly, because the trucker protest has been able to make, has been able to make very subtly the Canadian flag into what they think is a hate symbol. symbol. It's sad that Canadians, as both of us know that. Yeah, but it's really, but it's really important because that cannot, there's a limit to how much that can be sustained. So if the trucker people, if the people from that world understand

that, and they realize that, for example, like the Canadian flag is being replaced by the pride flag, for example, you know, and it's like these things have meaning. We can understand them, the people that, that are involved in this, then this is a great. tool that you have to be able to actually do that, to say, oh, we are Canada. It's like, your enemies want you to be Canada. You want to be Canada. That's a powerful thing. It's like, it's like if the liberals want to portray the Canadian flag as a hate symbol and the media want to do that, it's like that is not something that, that is a weapon that is not that easy to hold if they're trying to hold it, it can be easily turned against them. And so, and so I would say, I would say to

people that are involved in this type of thing to pay attention to that. Because, because, I mean, it's like the liberal part of Canada has a, as a red flag, as a red Canadian Maple Leaf as part of their logos and part of their insignia's. And so they want to play that game. They're not going to win. They can't win that game. At least not, maybe in the long term, maybe in the very long term, but in the short term, they can't win the make, make insignias of Canada into hate symbols. It's not going to happen. So I would say that the truckers have a one-up there. If they succeeded in doing something, that is something very powerful they succeeded in doing, which is, oh, you want to make our own identity, the identity of our nation, of our flag, you know, of our anthem into a hate symbol.

you, the leaders of our government, that's what you want to do? Let's see how that plays out. Let's play that out and see what happens. So anyways, I'm just saying that it's not, there are opportunities there which should not be left, that should not be dropped. Let's just say. Yeah, I agree. I would be the first to say that I think before the trucker convoy, people were, hesitant to put a Canadian flag out on their doorstep or what have you.

You know, here in, on the border of Alberta, Saskatchew, when the Humboldt bus crash happened and all those athletes died, you were more likely to see hockey sticks on a doorstep than a Canadian flag. Now, obviously, that one pulled at a lot of people's hearts for obvious reasons, kids, hockey, bus trip. I mean, even there was a DVD, a slap shot that almost made me cry, because, I mean, if you've been on any hockey bus, you've watched Slapshot at way too young of an age,

and every year after that in unison, because it's just one of the iconic things. And it was, of course, there. And for it to happen in Saskatchewan of all places, you know. And so, but after the convoy, during the convoy, you started to see people, you know, they were flying the Canadian flag upside down to announce distress to the world.

And by the time they got to Ottawa, they had it flipped over because they were so proud, Not all of them, I shouldn't say all of them, but they were so proud of what Canada was doing. And it was starting to pull everybody together. And that was a very interesting moment. And I think, you know, if you're sitting at the top and you're trying to do exactly what you're kind of alluding to, which is like, hey, are we going to make this new pride flag who Canada is? You know, we're welcome for everybody. Everybody is welcome here.

What you didn't realize is a lot of people are like, no, actually, we're Canada. And this is what Canada is. And you're messing with that. Yeah. So this is important to understand that, okay, so identity is attention, right? Identity is care. And identity is celebration. That is how identity functions. So if you want to know the, if you want to like get the temperature of a society or of a world, look at what they're allowed to celebrate. And that will give you the temperature and will help you understand what it is that's going on. And so, and this is something that, as people, as families, you know, as groups, we, we have some control over, which is that we have traditions that we celebrate, which we know make us who we are, right? We have Christmas, Easter, Canada Day. We have different things depending on, on your, you know, you have different celebrations. You celebrate your family. You have Thanksgiving, depending on different people.

But there are multiple places where we come together and celebrate things. And these are very important in order to maintain unity. They are necessary. We need them. And so, you know, when those things are being attacked, right? It's like when people are saying, we don't say Christmas, we say holidays, we don't celebrate this. And then you're like, well, what do we celebrate? Oh, we celebrate Halloween a lot.

Like that's what, they were allowed. There's nothing suspicious about Halloween in like popular culture. I have nothing against Halloween. I celebrate Halloween with my kids too. But it's like, look at where all the effort is put into. It's like put into celebrating certain things. And it's the same with the pride question. It's like pride season, really?

So all summer, the whole summer, the whole thing. That's all it is. So we went from day to week to month to season. And so what is it going to be next? It's going to be a year? Are there going to be several during the year? And the answer is yes. The answer is yes.

The answer is that's the direction. And it has to do exactly with what it is that, you know, and it's not, it's not like beyond whatever moral question. It's just about, it's just about global culture. It's just about our local identities, our suspicious. And what is not suspicious is just being open to everything, right? That's the only thing that's not suspicious. It's like celebrate everything that's not me.

or that is not participate in the unity of our thing. Like the idea of celebrating diversity itself, that's an interesting, weird thing. That's not, it's like celebration is unity. That's what celebration is. Celebration is, let's all stand together in a single place and let's all together, like, celebrate someone's birthday. And so we have a single point of attention, this person, this holiday,

this president, this prime minister, this queen, this whatever, and we're all going to agree that we should look at that and acknowledge it as being something that binds us together. That's what celebration is. But when you say, we're going to celebrate diversity. What? We're celebrating difference. Like, we're celebrating that which divides us. How did that happen? And I mean, it's not like that doesn't exist, like it doesn't exist. Even in ancient societies, there was always like a carnival. So you have the whole year you'll have celebrating things where you celebrate unity. And then once a year, usually, or a few times a year, you'll have what we call a carnival, which is the upside down world. So you have an upside down festival

where you celebrate all the things that separate you, all the idiosyncrasies, all the monstrosities, all the all the weirdness, all the, like, all the turning and the excess and the color and and the things that you would never do in everyday life. And so you have this moment where you have carnival. And everybody pretends to be something else and everybody is dressed up as an animal or a monster or whatever. But that's just one, that's just like, that's carnival. And then you move on.

And after carnival comes lent, right? It's like you kind of, it's like a moment to like mark this diversity. And then we move on to unity. It's not that diversity is wrong. Diversity is necessary. It's wonderful. It's like, of course we need diversity. You can't just have unity. But to make the whole thing, to say something like Canada doesn't have an identity, right, Canada is a post-national nation.

Canada, the only value that Canada has is diversity. That is crazy. That is like, that's insanity because diversity without unity is decomposition. That's what decomposition is. When something rots, it's because it's diversity without unity. And so we have to be attentive to all of that. And for people who have the capacity to realize what's going on, is obviously not to be against diversity.

It's like that's ridiculous. Obviously, you need diversity for things to exist. But it's like this weird weaponization of diversity to replace unity. Now, that's horrible. Like, that's horrible. You can't do that. you'll cease to exist. Well, they promote diversity of, of appearance, of, of gender, of all these physical attributes,

but not diversity of thought. That's right. And so you go like one of the most beautiful things that happened in Ottawa, if you were there, is you saw diversity of everything, of faith, creed, color, everything. Everything showed up. It's like, wow, this is, but then they didn't. And so when you talk about, you know, actions essentially speak louder than words, who didn't show up? Our leaders.

Like, they didn't show up. Let's talk about that, though. That's how diversity should exist. It's like in Ottawa, what you saw is people of all kinds of creeds and color, religions, whatever, coming together to celebrate something they have in common. Correct. We're not celebrating their diversity. It's like there's nothing wrong with diversity. Like I said, we need it.

But it's like they came together. under the desire to save our nation from this authoritarian tendency that it was, that it was coming to. And they came to celebrate their unity as Canadians. That's what we celebrate. And so it's like if we're going to celebrate, let's say, our national holiday, then that's what we celebrate. We celebrated through our diversity, beyond our diversity. And it's different. So it's like a trick. It's like a weird trick that he's been played on us. It's like, don't you like diversity, Sean? Are you saying diversity is bad?

And you're like, oh, oh, and then you just like stutter and you mutter and you don't know what to do because you're like, you're like, oh, I don't want to be called this and that. This is what's so insidious about the entire argument is because if you're if you're just going along to get along and you just want to work your job and you just want to worry about your family and you just want to celebrate Christmas and have some friends over on whatever holiday, you know. And then you get approached with, well, you don't like. diversity, inclusion, you're not for equality, you're not for all that. It's like, well, on this, on this, on this on the surface, I certainly am. It certainly sounds quite, quite great. But then you just go back to what we just said, like they don't want the diversity of thought.

And I mean, we can all look identical. None of us think the same. And, and you can stick me across from a ton of people who look similar to me through COVID and they had very different thoughts. And they did not, uh, did they did not like open discussion on it. They wanted, this is what it is. And now, in fairness, the amount of propaganda that came through at that time, I got a lot of patience for a lot of people because, believe me, it was hot and heavy there for.

Yeah, we should be very careful not to blame people. No. Because, like you said, most people just want to live their lives, and that is absolutely fine. But the problem was that the propaganda was so strong and coming at all. Well, and they're playing on that, Jonathan. playing on the fact that people just I just you know I just want to I just want to work my job and go to the lake or go to a movie or play me with my kids or coach hockey or whatever it is you know like everybody has their thing the problem we

have right now is it's being rammed and it's it's being rammed on and on and if you don't start to get active then we'll come back to right where we were all over again and the amount of stress that comes through all that and like Like it's, it's, yeah, I don't know. People need to find their voice. People need to hear what, when Jordan Peterson talks about clean your room, you know, take care of yourself and start to do a little better and start to speak the truth and deal with that and then adventure you're going to have. Yeah, like, I mean, that's, that's where we're sitting.

Is it not? Yeah, I think so. It's, it's difficult. How can I say it? It's like, it's like, I find it. it's it i find for me like personally i just find it very difficult to be involved politically and i think most people do it's just really hard because you're like ah man it's so it's like getting dirty right that's not but but in fairness but in fairness yeah let's take politics and put it to

what you said to me earlier about ritual ritual is actually happening all over the place politics is actually happening all over the place politics doesn't mean you have to all of a sudden and run for the PPC or the CPC or whatever else, you know, out there. Like literally, you work, you know, I used to work for a big corporation. And I lost my voice partially through it because I realized everything I said was making people uncomfortable. And I was like, but I just, I just don't understand, right? And I became that guy, that guy that everyone's like, can you just shut up, Sean?

And can we just get on with our day and whatever? And so to me, that's being involved just as much as running for the, you know, whatever party. Because I feel like it plays out more in our lives. There's a way to have the conversation with your family and everyone else in a respectful manner that can maybe start to open some eyes so that you get a flood of people pushing the direction we all want to go. Because there's a common ground that a lot of people can share. I mean, we've been talking about that, right? The fact that you can all show up with all your diversity on a day.

to celebrate one thing and put aside any differences to be like this is really important. Yeah. Then that that's, I think that that for sure is important. I mean, at least for myself, you know, that the COVID situation made me realize just how, how can I say this, just how precious the possibility we have of joining together and being together and kind of celebrating the things that bind us like whether it's church life family life all these things meeting with with other people and so hopefully it had that effect on people like that's a positive effect that he might have had which is that you know made you realize

just how you have to you have to not take those things lightly because they can be taken away from you you know what gives me a lot of hope is finding more and more Canadians such as yourself. When I started this, you know, five years ago almost, five years in February, I shouldn't jump ahead of myself. But, you know, like I was saying episode 500, right? Like, ooh, like how did that happen, right? You were talking at the start, you know, hundreds of thousands of followers.

How did that happen? No, I mean, it doesn't happen overnight. You've got to start and you got to move and different things. And one of the things I found through COVID is I'm like, holy crap, Canada has an amazing amount of people that got their stuff together, head screwed on straight. speaking very articulately, understand problems, and are pushing in their own specific way. And finding yourself and others, Jonathan, gives me a lot of hope because there's a lot of independent media now that is coming and bubbling up through the surface as well, along with

influencers and different people talking, et cetera, et cetera. And that's going to help just as much as anything. Yeah. Well, we hope so. We hope in some ways that certain players overplayed their cards during COVID and that the reaction is, is strong enough and that people realize what was going on. And, you know, a lot of, for example, like, it's interesting that people talk when people say the trucker protest didn't succeed or whatever. Like, I think it succeeded to a large extent. You know, maybe not as much as they hoped, but it definitely succeeded quite a bit because

before the, just before the trucker protest in Quebec, they were talking about increasing the VACs pass. they're talking about applying it to grocery stores and and like really clamping down they'd already tried and had it and had it went through court and it got pulled right they'd already tried that they were talking about border crossings in our between provinces in we had a snitch line out here they were talking about government facilities starting for quarantine centers and on and on and on this story went yeah so they so it seems like they what it showed hopefully is that there's still enough people with life in them and

and a kind of attention to that that we're not going to too easily fall into an authoritarian system. Let me ask you this. Before COVID, let's just rewind the clock four years, let's just say. Four years that way were well before that. What media organization in Canada did you pay attention to? No, I mean, I had been ruined for a very long time because I was friends is Jordan Peterson. So I got ruined in 2016. In 2016, I was like, because I was friends with Jordan and all of a sudden they were saying all these crazy things about him in the news and in the

media, the way they were portraying the situation. And I thought, they're lying. Like, they are straight up lying nonstop. And so then at the same, so obviously when Jordan would happen, the same thing happened in the U.S. election at the same time. So it was like Jordan was going on and the U.S. election was happening at the same time. And I was like, they're lying. They're just lying. They just lie to us. And I didn't like, for them, I didn't like particularly like Donald Trump,

but I also didn't like the fact that they would just constantly lie about him, like just nonstop. And I thought, well, this is, you know. And so since then, I don't trust the media at all. I just don't trust them. And so you're right that in some ways what has happened because of also the internet is, you know, we've all found other ways to get our information and to kind of analyze information on our own. And hopefully a lot less people trust the CBC, you know, or the other big, big media

companies than they did before because that's nonsense. Like, I just hope, I just hope the conservative has come in and totally not just defund, but annihilate the CBC. It should go away. I'm, I put zero of my faith anymore in any political organization that they're going to do what they're supposed to do. Yeah, they're not. I know. So I sit here and I go, the thing that gives me real hope, honestly, is I can rattle off like 15 podcast shows, et cetera, all in Canada now that are reporting on different things that are right on the tip of the spear, if you would, that are counteracting what mainstream media is done. You know, one of the things about one of our shows on Tuesdays where we focus on headlines from Canada is I think when we started

that 70, it'll be 73, I think next week. Anyways, it doesn't matter. 70 some episodes ago. The headlines, they're still dumb, and there's still a lot of stupidity in there. But I've started to see a change and, like, actual, I think there's some actual reporting

going on, John. Isn't that an interesting concept? And I see that change. And I mean, does it happen overnight? No, it doesn't. But the one thing before 2020, I could have safely said is like, I don't know. Like, do you?

watch the CBC, don't you watch the CBC? And now I'm like, well, you never watch the CBC, right? And what I've started to see is, you know, I would have said, well, I listen to Joe Rogan. I listened to some different hosts down in the United States. And it's one of the things that bothered me the most is I'm like, I'm Canadian. Where am I going to get my Canadian news feed from, or at least cultural concepts from? You know, like, where are they? And I watch yourself, I watch Jordan Peterson, I'm sure lots of Canadians do.

And you're like, holy crap, we got some juggernauts. And they need to be on the Canadian side of things. That's why I was so excited to have you on. I'm like, holy crap. Like, you know, in my mind, we got these brilliant minds sitting all here. We gotta expose them more to Canadians, not saying you aren't. But it's true, most of my public is in the US,

that's for sure. Well, think about that. And I go like, you're getting exposed to it, whether my entire audience knows exactly who you or not. It doesn't matter. You're getting exposed to, I think the last time I checked, 74% of my audience is Alberta, Saskatchewan, Western Canada, and they're hungry for this. They're like ridiculously starved for, you know, what is going on and trying to make sense of it and having different thoughts. And you certainly have that ability. Thanks. I appreciate it. You know, it's like I, it's hard because we are in some ways. I myself here in in Quebec, you know, I have some issues that I have to deal with, like with my own people, let's say. And so I have this basic mistrust about the politics here and about the way that everybody

just kind of moves in one direction and kind of just follows what the leadership says. So it's difficult for me because I have, I feel alienated in some ways from, I feel. I feel alienated in some ways from my own from my own nation and it's so because I'm because I also have this difference like I'm not I am more Kibiqua than I am Canadian and that's just a reality of history you know it's like I I do feel closer to that identity but I also do love yeah I mean I also love Canada as well and so I feel a bit of alienated all around like I don't know in that sense I myself don't feel like I totally have a home in in the world in that sense so It's a weird place to be in.

Well, I think I can't speak for, I won't speak for my audience, never do. But like one of the things I've been realizing, you know, this journey, this little adventure I've been having with the podcast, is I keep finding people like yourself that aren't sitting in Alberta and Saskatchewan. And believe me, I keep unearthing them here as well. I just was out in Colonna a little less than a month ago. and there was a whole universe out there that speaks and talks and acts and things similar to me that I had no idea existed. I was like, how is it that you're not that far from me? And I had no idea that this was here.

And I think for a lot of us, especially in the middle of COVID, you went, there's nobody, like, why am I so crazy in my thoughts? And then we start to find out that, you know what, there's a bunch of Jonathan's just sitting right over there that are feeling maybe similar to us. Yeah, there's quite a bit here in Quebec, to be honest. Like, in Quebec City, for example, Quebec City is seen by Montrealers as this reactionary, as right wing or whatever the way they want to phrase it. But there's quite a lot of people that were reacting to the COVID measures. They were doing it in a Canadian way.

We didn't, not like in the U.S. where, and we still wore our mask to the stores or whatever. were like we there wasn't a lot of resistance on that front but when it kind of pushed towards the the the protest you know we saw coming we stood on the road watching cars come from Quebec city or from the direction of Quebec all the way to Ottawa and I mean we just stood there for three four hours and it was just a non-stop stream of people going into Ottawa so it's like there's a lot I think there there's more than we think even though we have a monoculture and people are demonized by the media here. Like if you hear,

it's even worse than in the rest of Canada. I mean, if you step out of line of the party, you know, thinking, you will get, because it's a small culture, right,

where like seven, eight million people, if you step out of line and you have a little bit of a voice, they will destroy you. They will destroy your life. Well, I tell you what,

I'll give you one of my favorite thoughts of being actually in Ottawa. My first is always the pilgrimage or the journey from Saskatchewan, from Alberta all the way there. I thought that was just something, how do you recreate that? But the first night I was in Ottawa.

It's two in the morning, and I'm down one in the morning, and we stood out there until two, but we're right in front of parliament, and one side of the street is blocked, so they haven't quite caught the other side blocked off yet, and all of suddenly, semi-start coming in,

and somebody says, oh, Quebec just arrived, and it was all the Florida Lee, and they were honking, and it's like one of those memories I will have for the rest of time, and the guy at the head, Someday I hope to interview him, you know, give me a translator.

Guy I don't know any French. But he was playing on his air horn, like a song. I don't know what it was, folks, but he sat there and he just played this like little, and I was like, this is something. Like this is just, this is just like straight out of a movie. I'm sitting there going like, what is going, it's minus 38, you know, you got half the street blocked. In comes Quebec on the other side.

They lock it down, and they're here to stay. And they were there to stay. And I tell you, I have a newfound respect for all of Canada, but Quebec stands out in my mind because of so many of the things that, whether it's media or whether it's culture, told me to think about your province, has changed since that day. You know, and honestly, when I was 20, we biked across Canada, me and my brother and a friend. And so we, you know, we're pedal biking, the way we go. And, you know, we finally get to Ottawa. and I'd heard all these stories about Ontario, you know, all these people are this and that

and their nose up to you and whatever else. And the nicest human being we met folks in all of Canada was in Ottawa. And so it's like you get these ideas of people and areas and things until you go experience it and see it for yourself, you just have no, you can't let somebody else's idea or thoughts

really push you too far because, you know, you might have a completely different experience and certainly are there some arrogant people out in Ontario, certainly. But Alberta has our fair share, so is Saskatchewan and on and on and on. Yeah, yeah. It usually has to do with, you know, it's horrible to say this, but it usually has to do with the difference between the city and countryside more than it has to do with the province in particular. You know, people that live outside of the big cities, you know, all over the world

are usually welcoming and warm and just have a, even though they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, might be kind of seem like a bit reactionary in their politics or whatever, but if you meet, if you meet them face to face, you know, it's like, it's usually pretty generous and pretty warm. So you'll find that in Quebec as much as you find it anywhere. Find that anywhere right now. You just look at a political map and see what everybody's voting on. You know, it's like, it's, it's so stark. The cities vote one way. The rural community votes another way. And they just have a, as Vance Crow, I think would say, they had a different speed of life, you know, the speed of life in the urban center.

versus out on the farm are just different. That's one way of thinking about it. Either way, I've enjoyed our chat, and I appreciate you giving me some time this morning, Jonathan. I just want to end with the one final question we do here. It's the Crude Master final question, so shout out to Heath and Tracy. If you're going to stand behind a cause,

then stand behind it absolutely. What's one thing Jonathan stands behind? I mean, I think that the one thing I stand behind is something like participation, you know, in the sense of kind of recovering, moving away from the passive entertainment mode and moving away from this idea that, you know, stories are just something that you watch from the outside. But rather jumping into our own stories, moving back in, that involves as much in terms

of the gospel or the Bible, in terms of those stories, but also our histories, our fairy tales. These are the things that I think are the most important for culture in the long run. beyond all the politics, beyond all that stuff, if we can recover our stories and know that there are stories and participate in them, then we're on a sure path to the future. I feel like I shouldn't ask this at the end of an interview, but when you talk about recovering our stories

and the Bible being one, what are your overall thoughts on the Bible? You know, like, I know that's such a large question. He's laughing. He's like, you want to try to ask that question. But I'm like, you know, as a guy who, who read the good book as a kid and none of it stuck. Then we've been talking a little bit about Ottawa,

you kind of get in a sense of what happened and kind of some of my thoughts and the fact that I'm in the middle of reading the New Testament and really finding a lot of peace and some interesting thoughts, and I just can't believe some of the profoundness stuck in the book, to be completely honest. You know, there's arguments out there that, you know,

like Jesus was just another man, or he was a special man, or God had nothing to do with it. or on and on and on. And I hate to give you six minutes or ten minutes to answer that. But I am quick. Maybe we'll leave a cliffhanger so that we can do another one at some point. So Jonathan could come on and answer it more in depth.

But I'm just kind of curious, you know, taking back our story. Let me just kind of rephrase it so that I can actually answer it because it's difficult. Like the truth is that, first of all, whether you think that whatever is written in the Bible, or not, whether you think that it's credible, whether you think all of these things. The story that are in Scripture in the West, Christianity and its story, is the bedrock of everything of all of your morality, is the bedrock of all the things that you think are good, the fact that you think that you should be kind and help people, that you should help the weak, that you should care for the marginalized, that a hero is someone who fights for those

that can't fight for themselves. Whatever vision, all your morality, all the very map of your existence is based on those stories. So if you ignore them, you ignore them at your peril because you will find yourself in the world where the rug will have been

just snatched from under you. And the very basis of the morality that you thought was unshakable will start to shake. And you won't know where to look and you'll find yourself lost and just not knowing where to find your bearing.

And so to recapture our connection to those stories, even if you don't believe in them, even if you don't want to go to church or you don't want, is something that you, like I said, that you ignore a true peril. Because if you look at the world around you and you think things are crazy, it's just started. If you look at the around and you think everything's upside down

and the whole, everything is topsy-turvy, it's, if this is just the beginning of what is possible in terms of madness, you know, we saw the 20th century devolve into insanity. And so, and so I would say recapturing our story, our values, understanding why it is we are, what we are is necessary to be able to know what to stand on to move forward. Man, I've really enjoyed our hour and change here. And I want to be respectful of your time.

So I'm not going to ask any more that gets you going. That's right. Give me on red mode. So for the people to all. watching sometimes I'm like I'm curious you know the hands have been have been going for Jonathan I'm like am I like is he like I can't believe he asked that you know or am I really pushing his brain one way or another it's been a fun little jaunt here for the for the hour and change but appreciate you coming on and and doing this I hope we can do it again in the future

either way appreciate what you're doing and I look forward to hearing more of your thoughts my brother's a little ahead of me in Exodus and he he wanted me to throw out to I don't know if you want to me to throw this compliment. I will. He thought yourself, Jordan, and about two others, man, if you four would have just sat down, had a conversation. Every time you talked, he was just like enthralled with what you were talking about. So that's a show to you, because I look at the room and hear the different thoughts. And I think the room assembled in general was quite incredible, especially for our time and age and everything else with people. It's been intriguing to sit and listen to. Either way, thanks for doing this.

I'm happy enjoying it. Thanks for having me. Well, thank you folks for tuning in. That was Jonathan Pajro. I think I'm going to have to go back and listen to that. I don't say that very often. Not that there's bad, that sounds terrible. Not that there's bad guess. But sometimes you get some thoughts and you're like, oh, man,

I've got to sit and think about that for a bit. And certainly a couple times there, he had my brain kind of, you know, treading water, if you would. And it's always cool to have somebody from the east side of Kandong. You know, Quebec gets such a bad rap from time to time. I think a lot of us Albertans and Saskatchewans, for that matter, are starting to change your tune on that an awful lot, and it comes through conversations like this. Either way, thanks for tuning in today. If you want a piece of this clip, what we've been talking about is send me your favorite part, and we'll see if we can't get it clipped, put on social media. I love to hear your guys' thoughts, so shoot me a text in the show notes.

You got the phone number there, everything else. And finally, today's episode was brought to you by Calrock Industries. Go to Calrock.ca. new used and refurbished oil and gas equipment in stock. Calrock is your best bet when it comes to finding equipment that fits your needs is within your budget and is ready as soon as you need it. And so calrock.ca. Thanks, guys. We will catch up to you on the next one.