Shaun Newman Podcast - #538 - Trish Wood & Jacqueline Bynon

Episode Date: November 24, 2023

Trish Wood is an award winning investigative journalist who for nearly 10 years was one of the hosts for the Emmy Award-winning investigative current affairs series, The Fifth Estate. She currently hosts the Trish Wood is Critical Podcast. Jacqueline Bynon is an award-winning producer, writer, narrator and podcaster. Recognized internationally, she’s one of North America’s driving forces behind high profile investigative true crime series for A&E, Discovery+, Investigation Discovery, Sky Crime, Lifetime, National Geographic and History.  Together they are working on a new documentary titled "The Trials of Tamara Lich". You can support here:  https://www.givesendgo.com/GB14C Let me know what you think. Text me 587-217-8500 Substack:https://open.substack.com/pub/shaunnewmanpodcast

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She was to work for Fifth Estate and now host the Trish Wood podcast. The second, an award-winning producer, writer, narrator, and podcaster. I'm talking about Trish Wood and Jacqueline Bynan. So buckle up, here we go. Welcome to the Shawton-Numann podcast today. I'm joined by Jackie Bynan. and of course Trish Wood returns. So thanks ladies for doing this.

You know, when I was reached out to the by, I don't know, Trish, is it, is it, I, I, yeah, she's like, what does Tris need to do? And I'm like, well, she should comb her hair. That would be a good start for the, for the video. And you both look lovely today. Thanks for, thanks for hopping on this side. Yeah, happy to do it. I was happy to.

We're very pleased to do this. I'm glad you still exist, you know. I'm glad that you're in the world doing doing, doing what I'm, yeah. I interviewed, what's his name? Moka Berzenga, I think, or something, forgive me, the guy who's covering the Cuths for trial by himself. He's a little, and you should have him on if you haven't. He's 24 and he drives to Lethbridge and sits in the courtroom by himself.

There's no other journalists there standing up for democracy. It's wild, and he's a very, very interesting little guy. It's been between, well, I mean, between Tamara and Chris out east, and then the Coots 4 out west here. You know, you'd think, I always go back to the convoy, you know, if they really wanted to make mainstream media thrive again. All they'd have to do is just do this thing called journalism and go cover everything, right?

They have the budget, they have the people, and yet they won't want to touch it with a 10-foot pole, Trish or Jackie, and that's a funny thing to watch, isn't it? Well, you know, that's very interesting. You say that, Sean, because that's one of the reasons that was the impetus behind Trish and I doing this doc. We were just gobsmacked by our reality of what it was and the way it was being portrayed. I mean, I went out to some of those sites outside Toronto and watched the convoy

go by and the atmosphere was so hopeful and bright because we were in that dark period of misery where we couldn't do anything. The government was controlling our every move. And then when the the convoy came along we thought oh there's hope and we were following especially Trish she was she went she was following it from the from the time they arrived in Ottawa and was talking to the people before Ottawa from the time they hit the road yes and it was such a different thing and we're we kept saying to ourselves why is there such a disparity between what we're perceiving and the way the media is doing it and it just seemed like it was a

and I don't know if we're ever going to get it back. Hence, we're on some, we're on the Sean Newman show. Well, yeah, no, but that's a very interesting thing, what you just said, because there was a dividing line. And Jackie and I have been friends since like the 70s. Should I even say that? Okay, now for the date, dating. Well, you both, you both look lovely.

You know? I love this man. I love this man. And so when COVID happened, our friendship reignited a bit because I'm sure like you, if you were awake early, I think you were on the issue, there weren't very many people to talk to about it. So Jackie and I ended up having a daily, sometimes more than daily phone call just to say, wow, did you see what CNN said about COVID? And do you believe that Fauci's wearing two masks? But then when the disbelief became a

kind of settled torpor. And what I mean by that is just before the fact that, you know, he's wearing, the truckers set out, I began to realize, and Jackie did too, that we didn't have a way out of this thing. You know, that the lockdowns were going to happen and happen and happen. The vaccines being touted as safe and effective as if it were a mantra were now being mandated for children. I believe that had started to happen. I mean, it was, and I realized we didn't have a way out, right? our politicians had offloaded their responsibility for public health onto a bunch of unelected bureaucrats who in my opinion, and I will say this absolutely definitively, and I know I will

never have to walk it back, they had no clue what they were doing. Every decision they made virtually was wrong. And those decisions are starting to cause harm that was demonstrably there, the suicide, sides were ticking up, the school closures were ticking up, kids were being, you know, suffering from deaths of despair, overdoses were off the charge. People, I have to tell you, you know all about it. And so we're trapped in a paradigm that we can't get out of. There's no remedy in this country, only the courts and ask Bruce Party this, who has become a friend, and we discussed this issue frequently. The courts were not finding no matter what kind of, you know, The great Barrington guys could go and appear in a courtroom somewhere in Western Canada with the best possible data and evidence that lockdowns were not just not working, but were harming people.

And the judges would file in favor of the plaintiff, meaning the person who, the defendant, sorry, the person who was being sued, the government, public health, whoever made the edict, because they were reflecting community standards. So what we learned was when community standards are completely corrupt and wrong and it's killing people, we have. had no way out. That's the interesting part too, is that that was the dividing line because as just as Trisha said, as journalists, that's our trade, we were wondering why the media wasn't being critical of these people, these medical bureaucrats and government medical bureaucrats are not, they're not near a game. That's why they joined the government. They were making this and because it was so draconian they were doubling down like don't begin to question us and

the media became their able-bodied messengers and that was the frustrating part for us because we seemed to have lost any sort of sense of how are we going to get out of this how are we going to question this that's the problem that happened and that's what really made us go well somebody's got to do it we weren't the only people of course but that was the impetus and I I realized, Sean, too, just not to flog this too much, but I did cover for CBC the AIDS crisis back in the 80s, right? And I did take on Tony Fauci in a pretty heated interview slash argument in his office at the NIH. I had a long history. And here's what's different.

The reporting that I did that I won Canadian Science Writers Awards for for the CBC could not be done on the CBC today about COVID, right? same situation, same, you know, what's the risk benefit ratio of this treatment? What's the best way to move forward? We criticize them like mad during AIDS. That same news corporation would not do the kind of coverage at lauded and that was awarded prizes in the 80s around COVID-19. And the question is, why? Why do you take a definitive statement about the vaccine is safe and effective?

Even in the face of people having bad reactions, even in the face of people, getting infected after, you know, remember the tweets? I've had five boosters and I got COVID. Thank God I got the vaccine. And they're still typing safe and effective in their news stories. And it can, worse, worse, going after people who disagreed with them. Even learned people, not me, I'm not talking about me, but learned scientists saying we've got a problem here, right?

I don't know how that happened, but for me personally, my embracing of the convoy, and I believe Jackie's 2, was a visceral moment where we said the cavalry is coming. Our institutions are failing us. They are not allowing us a way out of something that seems to be working for all the laptop class. And meanwhile, the country is in terrible trouble. And then, you know, Yahoo, Chris and Tamara and others, I'm focusing on them, but many others

in the membership and leadership there showed up to save the day. And that's when they came. at that moment. And I wept with gratitude. And I wept many times over the convoy and how wonderful they were for this country. Yeah, I think it was because there was like-minded people out there thinking what we were thinking. And, you know, when that time was happening, there was a lot of people, you just didn't say anything because if you didn't get the vaccine, you might lose your job or you did if you didn't. There was this sense of you couldn't say stuff and then you thought oh my god here's these people who are not afraid to say you know hello

you know we want the mandates taken off because it's affecting our ability to earn a living and it was finally this movement oh my god we're not alone because as we said earlier the media was portraying it as if we were some evil doers or as our prime minister called us the fringe fringe minority. It's been interesting, ladies, because I've been having lots of conversations on, like, the, you know, like, when it comes to the CBC in particular, like viewing numbers on the CBC are in an all-time low. Like, nobody's, nobody, you know, sure, maybe is there some pockets where they still tune in and is there some age demographics where they still tune in? Sure. But I think they've pretty much undone all the great work they did once upon a time.

everyone, you know, holds them off at about a 10-foot pole, you know, that nobody's really that trusting of any media source anymore. And that's damage in itself. And I was asking one individual, well, how do we get it back? He's like, well, if journalists started doing journalists things and started holding people account and started showing both sides and everything else, and you go, is that possible? I don't know. Ladies, is it possible to have journalists be journalists again?

Well, let me take that and then I'll throw it, Jackie, just because you mentioned the CBC, I just want to put a fine point on what you just said. I have not been at the Fifth Estate since the 90s. I was over 10 years. And in the last year, I've had three calls from American documentary producers who are doing entire documentaries on a story that I did at the Fifth Estate, including the Oklahoma bombing. saying and the other thing the Fifth State did was the Nazarea story about the young girl who fake the incubator deaths to get America into the Gulf War. That was Lyndon McIntyre at the Fifth State. I was there, but I didn't do that story.

And well, and the one that we did on Carla Hamoko, which pretty much showed that she didn't have battered wife's syndrome and she may in fact have killed the girls herself. So I'm called by people all the time saying, wow, what a show, what great work you did, right? They're not doing that. now. They're not doing those kind of stories now. So how do we get it back? I, you know, I'll keep it short so Jackie can chime in here. But I feel that we now, here's the danger zone, quite a lot about it. And I've actually started thinking about starting a platform that could maybe bring us all together in a Walter Cronkite moment where we all consume in the same place.

We now curate what we watch and see based on our own already biases. We curate to our own biases. So I'm right center. I watch Fox and I get everything from Fox. I'm left. I get everything from MSNBC. So what that means, and it's so dangerous, we live in different realities, right?

We're having a Fox News watcher have a discussion with somebody from MSNBC on the same subject. January 6th, oh, it was not that bad. And the people were arrested and hell without bail was terrible versus it was an insurrection. and they all deserve, right? As long as we're living that way, we cannot be a secure democracy.

That, to me, is the biggest threat to our country than any existing exterior or interior threat. That is at the siloification of news. And it was done because it makes money. It's a rage to keep people mad, and they'll keep watching and keep feeding how mad they are. And I think it's a cynical move by corporations. I don't know how you fix it.

But that's where we are. Sorry, Jackie. No. To add to that is that divide we have between you're in two groups now. There seems to be only two groups. And what I have discovered with some of my journalistic friends is that they still believe they're doing proper journalism. That's where I have lost my ability to go, I don't know if we are going to get it back because they still think they're doing proper journalism.

They think all this kind of stuff is fringe stuff. A lot of people do believe that. And that's why I think the convoy and the trial that's happening there too is a moment in our time, which is it's setting the tone for the way we're going to move forward. Because I don't know if our institutions and the way we viewed Canada and the way we viewed our lives, our freedom, the same way as we did before. And I think what doesn't matter what happens to Tamara and Chris in the sense that I think we've already made that divide.

And I don't know if we're going to get it back. In journalism, for sure, I think it is a schism. And in terms of some people that I'm journalists that I have, we don't even discuss the journalism side if we're friends. We just leave, we park that. and talk about, you know, Megan Markle and Prince Harry. Or the rafters or something, yeah. Exactly.

That's disappointing to me because I never did that before. I never had this kind of, what's the word, censorship on what discussions I could have with my friends or colleagues. But if they're in the media, it's kind of like, well, which media are you in? Are you in the good media or the bad media? It depends on which media are you really? What's saying is, is the divide isn't just among common folk. It has made its way into even a profession that's supposed to hold, you know, like journalism is supposed to be this, you know, kind of, let's see what the story is, regardless of where the story goes, let's see what it unfolds as. You're saying there's even a divide there that's like, I mean, I guess it shouldn't surprise me, but the self-censorship part of it actually really does surprise me a bit, that you can't sit across from a journalist and be like, yeah, I don't know, but what about this and this and this?

this and you'd think I don't know I'm you'd think they'd be well you can you can sit across but they'll end up in a big fat argument triggering it's triggering people get really triggered I think that um that that one of the ways out and time is passing is for the old school types to step up I I bumped into the other day a couple of old CBC types at my husband's store just casually. And I'm not going to name them, but I wish that they were speaking out because they, I'm sure that they know that what's going on at CBC is wrong. You know, the completely unchecked support for gender affirming surgery for young people when science says put the brakes on in countries around the world,

we're saying, whoa, we've got to stop this stuff, you know. But their support for it was instantaneous. It's like it's an ideological capture of the way they view the world. People say, oh, it's because they get money and they're supporting Trudeau and he pays them and stuff. And they do get money. But I don't, I don't think that it's a quid pro quo. I just think that the people who work at the CBC now think the way that Trudeau thinks,

which is like super postmodern, identitarian, you know, everything's social justice. Everybody's a victim or an oppressor. That's their view of the world. And so that is the lens that they bring to the country. And we're seeing this very much play out in the Israel Gaza stuff now, too, that it's a camp and a camp. I don't want to talk about it here because it's too intense.

But it's a camp and a camp. And you can't, you know, there's incoming on both sides, constantly. But I think that the senior people in this country should do something to pull, pull us back from the abyss here. I don't know, pull back. I think we're over the abyss. I think we're now crashing. And I believe, Sean, we could see the end of this country. I believe we could see the end of what I knew as Canada growing up. That's a scary, scary thought for all that entails. You know. and where and where that goes.

I've always had the, held the thought, and maybe I'll throw it at you, ladies, that it was no different than when they removed Don Cherry. I didn't realize what Don Cherry and Ron McLean really symbolized for the country. You know, it used to be, oh, they just banter things and whatever. But when you take a step back, Don Cherry represented one side of the population, and Ron McLean represented one side.

And they went back and forth, and they both got to say their thoughts in a respectable manner, and sure sometimes you thought, Don Cherry, what did you say there? But other times you thought, oh, that was pretty good. And the thing was, as more and more of this got removed from society, there was nobody talking about the other side of anything. And so when you talk about it, it's not that they're just getting paid.

It's that they actually believe in all this. It's like, well, I mean, when there's nothing else to inform you of the other side, what else can you think? And if you don't, and that's what the rise of podcast has really done. And all of a sudden you get to hear unfiltered, people get to say their thoughts. And also you're like, oh, man, I hadn't thought of it like that before. Like, gee, that's a thought. And now you've got a population that was going, you know, okay, yeah, we'll keep going.

And more and more people are starting to wake up to the fact that something isn't right. And they want people to talk about it. But on our mainstream televisions, nobody's talking about the things that actually matter. Well, the other thing that's interesting, too, is, with podcasts, Sean, and you will know this is because of the popularity of podcast, podcast, especially in Canada, the government's decided, hey, we better take a look at this because they may be gathering more audience than we like. And that is another frightening thing. These are these things where they can make an argument that where you go, yeah, I can kind

of see why the government, they don't want people saying bad words and calling people kill, you know, that kind of stuff. And there is a line. But they've made that line so kind of murky. It's what they determine. It comes back to that thing of what's information and what's misinformation. And they're worried because podcasts really are the place to go to if you want to get alternative views or just feel free to be able to give your alternative view. And I think that's what's really disappointing to me as well as a Canadian.

Why are we letting the government. do this to us because so many people are afraid to say stuff. And unless we start to talk like we are like now, like not just us, but the people outside, the people that go for their groceries at no frills, people who go to home, sense and shop, those average people have to feel that it's okay to not agree with what you're reading in the Toronto Star

or the Ottawa citizen or on the CBC. I think that's where we have to go. And I don't know if we're going to get there. The more control the government has, the less people realize they're being controlled, too. Because you get cornered and cornered and cornered. Oh, I can operate within this certain. Well, I interviewed Sean Buckley, who was obviously, I believe Trish, you would know exactly who I'm talking about from the NCI.

And he had talked about natural supplements. And back in the, I want to say, late 90s, don't forgive me on dates, ladies. but that there was an attack on natural supplements back then. And I said, interesting. And, you know, like what happened? He said, well, you know, it's probably a little bit of an unknown fact, but it's like something like 70-some percent of Canadians use natural supplements. So when it got taken away from all of them or it was about to,

a whole bunch of people got outraged, not just us three, but you can imagine like 70 percent. That's a huge chunk of the population. They said, what do you mean? I'm not going to be able to get whatever. Here's the thing with podcasts and things like Spotify and Apple. There is a huge chunk because it's not just people who listen to us. I mean, you know, like some of the number one shows are completely the opposite side.

They're different short stories and there's a whole just swath of things on that. If this starts to get attacked, I hope, you know, my hope is it's very similar to Sean Buckley's story on natural health supplements. This isn't going to just affect us. It's going to affect anyone who's daily routine. it revolves around flipping open Spotify or Apple, which is the two that I always think of, and downloading their favorite show that comes out weekly or daily or, you know, whatever it is, because this could come to where it just hinders everything. Like Spotify, you know, in a day or two, look at what meta did.

It said, oh, by the way, we're just not going to allow you to share any news outlets anymore. You go, well, what if Spotify just goes, yeah, we're not interested and remove all Canadian content? You don't think that there's going to be a whole bunch of people across all of Canada going what on earth is going on? Well, that's one way of looking at it. But the other way of looking at it, and it's one of the reasons that we're doing the documentary, is that people are so exhausted from having to take on the government on every single issue. And also defeated after seeing the jack boot of the government come down on the neck of the freedom of Congress. convoy that maybe it's not going to happen that people will rise up.

I don't think we view our country the same way. And I know there are these big protests now that are pro-Palestinian. That's a different cohort. And that's also a cohort that our prime minister sort of agrees with, kind of. So they're not going to do anything terrible to them, the way they did with the truckers. But I don't know, people might feel defeated. But the other thing I just wanted to say, just bring it back the truckers for a minute, is that what was happening during COVID-19 was inherently cruel and anti-Canadian in that way.

And I remember Jackie and I talked a lot about, wow, we thought Canadians were so polite and kind. That was our nature. That's how we're known around the world. Was that kindness just obedience? You know, that teachers were in favor of closing the schools to safeguard their own health, which essentially means that the teachers were using the kids as human shields. Not to put too fine a point on it, but that's kind of what happened. That we were allowing people to die alone in old age homes,

that we prevented people from saying goodbye to love the hospital. So are we getting some feedback? Oh, no, okay, it was gone. So for me, that was kind of fueling my, I went into a, a bit of a depression because the country was not the country I thought it was. And here's the rub. The people who think that they're the good people, the ones who were morally correct during COVID, are the COVIDians, right? The ones who wore 10 masks, snitched on their neighbors, demanded everybody get vaccinated before they could come to dinner, et cetera, et cetera. I don't see it that way. I know they

were doing the best they could under the pressure of a massive sigh of fear campaign. I understand that. But the good people, I believe, like the truckers, were the ones who saw that what was happening was inherently cruel, right? They are the ones, in my view, who actually represent the core of what the country is. You know, we didn't go to war in Vietnam. We had peacekeepers. We didn't go to war in Iraq. We said, you know, we were peacekeepers, right?

And we always had that image of kindness and goodness. And that actually, despite the terrible reputation they have got because of Trudeau's smearing of them in conjunction with the newspapers is what the truckers really represented to me. And I think the people who supported them in this country understood that on a visceral level. That's why the protests were fun and there was no mean stuff going on, because there was something in the movement that was inherently kind and decent and generous and hospitable to people during a time of an authoritarian push. that's my feeling

on your heart well I I go I share all your thoughts Trish and yet through all of that darkness I find these little lights one of them's named Trish Wood

now I'm getting introduced to Jackie Binet and on and on it goes and they're all Canadian and I just keep getting I think as the day goes by I get a little more hope that I see all these people pushing

now you're pushing against a machine that is big and cumbersome but is a machine nonetheless but more and more every day I run into another Canadian that you're like, huh, well, there they are. And they're pushing and they're trying their darndest. And I think you're right on the Canadian side of things. I think we used to think what we were was kind and polite and everything else. And we realized where that got us.

It was obedience. And obedience was leading us to the old cattle shoot, you know. And now I think Canadians a lot and more and more every day are finding a little bit of firmness where you can be kind. I'm just not doing that. And you know, that's very interesting you say that because when I go into, I don't know, shoppers, drug marred or grocery stores and I'm having these conversations with people where they are agreeing. And there's these little incidents, little incidents where I think, oh, there is hope. There is hope. I'll give you an example.

And I don't know if it's, I was in Kensington Market in Toronto. And it was packed. And there was a woman in there with a mask on, of course, and she was carrying one of those carts you could carry, like if you were, it was one of those shopping carts that you carry behind you. But she didn't care. There was a thousand people in there. She didn't care.

She had it laid out, and she was strolling along in the middle of the aisle. And everyone was moving around her. And she couldn't care less. There was a guy and his wife beside me. And I looked at the guy. I said, are you thinking what I'm thinking? goes, yeah, it's just exactly what I'm thinking. He says, people just don't care anymore. He said, and I said, are you as mad? He goes, yeah, I'm as mad as you. He says, and don't get me

going. And then he brought up, he said, and don't get me going on other stuff. And here it was, just this average dude with his wife, grocery shopping, but there was this sort of, can I, can I bent a little? And that's why I think there is still hope. And that's why I never give up. The thing for listeners and for all three of us, too, is just like, but the time is now. Like, I mean, you look at some of the things coming down the pipe as we get closer to 2030 and the different agendas and the different years and everything else. And you're like, don't sit around and think we got 50 years. It's like, we might want to get moving on a little faster than that.

And that probably I should bring up, you know, as we're moving on things, you know, you ladies, once again, are working together. on a dock about this lady named Tamara Leach. I don't think people know who that is, but maybe they do. And tell me a little bit about it. Because when you're trying to put together projects, I don't know if there's a more recognizable face out west right now than Tamara Leach. Maybe Chris Barber, he's close second.

But you talk lots about the truckers and everything else. And yet here they are on trial. and I should get your guys' thoughts on that as well, but forgive me. We'll start with the documentary and how that's going and anything you want to say on that. Well, I want to say a couple things. I want to say that we are in a position now where we're crowdfunding, so we're making a bit of an appeal through Sean today, because I think Canadians need to fully understand something.

The film that we're making about Tamara and Chris and others is a film that the national, National Film Board or Canadian Broadcasting should be making and fully funding, but they won't because it flies in the face of the narrative they created based on the prime minister's untrue smear campaigns, right? CBC was responsible for the story that the convoy was being controlled by Putin, false, the story that there was funny money coming in from their crowdfunding through America, proud boys, whatever, false. The RCMP head of financial crime said that didn't happen. things, right? So the big media companies in this country are not going to fund a documentary that's going to take a bit of a shot at them. But also in a more general sense, Jackie and I work

at the level of Netflix and Amazon. Of course, we take it there. You get decent money and really can up your production values and things. But they have their narratives too. So we now live in a world where these, and my friend Jennifer Say is now crowdfunding a film on school closures at America. She was the Levi's executive that quit because they were trying to shut her up for talking about school closures and children. And she turned down a million dollar bonus to sign an NDA so she could keep talking. She said she got a film out too, so pay attention to that. But, you know, we're and she did a documentary called Athlete A. So like Jackie and I, she's an experienced producer director.

So we can't, the projects that we need to see and need to engage with are not being. funded by the main funders of documentary films anywhere in Western culture right now. So that is why the poor people out there are probably being hit with all of these crowdfunding pitches because there's really no way else to do it. Unless you're so far along, then maybe you can get a broadcast license and get some decent money to finish the project. So we've done two rounds of filming on the road, which is expensive. Jackie was out west with a crew interviewing Tamara and Chris.

before they left for the trial, which she could talk about in a second. And then we were down in Ottawa when the trial began doing more. And now we have our major kind of interview shoot coming up next week. So these things all cost money, good crews cost money, hotels cost money, all cost money. And, you know, we're being pretty, pretty parsimonious considering the budgets we usually work with. But it would cost money. And if you want a beautiful film with some lyrical visuals that, takes the story farther. There is a good doc out already called

Unacceptable, Worth Watching, that really focuses on the event itself. This is about the event itself, but now what's happened after POEC, which wrongly, in my view, cleared the Prime Minister from invoking that. And where are we now in this country if certain people, i.e. working people, feel that they cannot protest without being picked on for it. So we're kind of elevating the discussion down the road a little bit. And also, I'll let Jackie talk about this important point, and that is Tamara Leach, who, and she's an enigma, right? She's a little itty-bitty thing.

She's super powerful, really smart, and everyone loves her, and they should. She's the real deal. She's also hard to get to know on a deeper level. So we want to explore a little bit of how that happened. And Jackie has been doing the interviews with Tamara. So maybe talk about that, Jackie. Yeah, it is interesting. If you meet Tamara, you have to like her.

She's a very, very sociable person. She's very, very nice. She's very Canadian and very calm. She's always solid. She never goes high and low. She doesn't. Like, I can get really high and low. She doesn't.

She's very, very placid in a sense that she never changes her mood. However, I felt at certain points that is this the way she is or is there something else beyond that? I think that was one of the reasons why she was so good at being one of the organizers on that convoy is because she had that personality where she didn't react to people the way you would want like, whoa, what are you talking about? She was very, very placid that way. But I do think there is another Tamara behind that. And I think it comes through in little itty bits. She was very emotional about her family because she doesn't, no matter what you think of her,

she doesn't want that saddled with her family, whatever tied to them. This is about her and her beliefs. She's also very strong about the whole reason they did it, why she did it. And the West. She's a very Western kind of personality type. But she's also very, she's determined and she's compelling in the fact that I keep wanted to poke her and go, like, is there something I can say to her that's going to make her go, ah? There were a couple of moments. There was moments where she was in when she was preparing to head to trial.

She took us into this room and it had boxes, boxes of things that people had given her as she traveled across the country with her book tour. little earrings, little books, cards, all sorts of things, like fluffy slippers, like all these things people gave her. And she got really emotional reading it because she said, this is the one thing she said, she feels this duty that so many people have put this faith in her that she's going to win the trial and then we will win the moment. We will win. We will finally say to Canadians, look, we were right. She feels that burden and she feels that really strongly. And that's why she said, this is my hill to die on. And she does mean that.

Now, during the trial, like I've been talking to her and Trish and I were out there, she's, everything's fine. Everything's kind of good. And you want to go, is it really or are you just in sort of battle mode? You're sort of pretending everything's good. Yeah. But I think she's strong. That's why I think Tamer Leach, who no one had ever heard of before this,

convoy and Chris Barber as well are in the situation they're in because that's who they are. They're willing to draw that line in the sand and no matter what happens, they're going to follow it through, which is what I admire about both of them. And they can still smile and have a drink. Chris told me a story I'll never forget about how on the day that he was, I hope I'm getting this right because it's been a while since I thought about it. But on the day he was arrested, his son was in Ottawa watching that happen and so as he was being cuffed by the police and put into the car he caught his son's eye across the street and i know i know i'm going to start crying and made a gesture so that his son would not worry about what was happening to him like even in the moment he's not thinking about himself he knows his kid is there and he wants him to be cool with seeing

you know, his father being arrested in that way. They both handled that moment beautifully. And I think what Jackie's getting out with Tamara too is that she, when people become a sort of an embodiment of a moment in history, we want to know what it is that propelled them there, right? What lurks in Tamara Leach's heart? And I have not seen anything about Tamara that. that suggests she isn't 100% sincere. I believe she completely is and I like her a great deal and trust her. But I want to know how she did what she did with such grace. And well, grace and solemnity.

Grit and grace is what Jackie and I say about her. She's got grit and grace and she just handles things so beautifully. So we know there's more in there and we're going to be digging away at it and trying to find it. so we can have it in the film and express it for people who are wondering about her. Because the more complex she is, the more interesting it is to me as a character, right? The other person who is underrated, but who's on trial as well as Chris Barber. Chris Barber is one of those people that I don't know how anyone could dislike Chris Barber. He is the most amenable, friendly, authentic.

He's Paul Bunyan. He is Paul Bunyan. You're right. I know. Oh, he is. He's so large because when I was interviewing him, he was here and I was like down here. It was like me and Donald Trump. Very, very tall.

But it's so friendly. And so to me, it was just this is how I think this is what I'm doing. It wasn't something he put on as a suit of armor. This is what I believe in. and this is why I went to Ottawa with the convoy. I just thought it was the right thing to do. And that's the name of that game. And there's nothing more to it.

There's nothing nefarious or sneaky. This is what gives me so much hope in Canada. Tamara and Chris, no different when Don Cherry was on television. It kind of emboldened people. And in the right way, I might add. I thought Don was very proud to be Canadian. And I think that was a good message. for Canadians to hear and now you watch Chris and Tameran what's what's what's

admirable or whatever word we want to attach to it is like you're showing us how you can be kind but firm like I'm this is what I believe well how did you get there it's like yeah well how did we all get here you know and they're just showing us a way to stand up for yourself stand up for Canadians and you don't have to get in this big F you match it's as simple as no I'm not doing that and gee you can do that I didn't realize you could do that. And there they sit on trial and you go like I don't know ladies I would love you know they put it out east and out west here it's like where do we go to find out more information

and you two ladies have been uh you know it's closer to you than to me um you know the the conversation around the you know the water cooler is always so are they going to really put them in in prison or are they going to get off and I don't know can you shine a light on that question for us well I'm going to answer by saying, I don't know. I think with the kind of protest that I'm going on, it's going to be very difficult to make these people look like villains. Now, in Ottawa, the people of Ottawa, and that's mostly who the Crown had as witnesses in their trial, they say they destroy, you know, they brought it, they paralyzed Ottawa because Ottawa's not used to that. They're not used to. It's this perfect little little place where, you know, government goes about.

about its business and then these truckers came in. I think this is just me guessing. I think, and I don't think they're going to get 10 years, I think they may get some minor thing just to say, well, we're going to stick it to you a little bit. I don't think they're going to get off completely. I could be wrong, but I don't think based on the way the trial is going,

that the Crown has made a strong enough case. Now, it's not a trial by jury, so it's up to the judge to make the final decision. But I don't think they're going to, they're going to be guilty of all the charges. That's just me. I don't think the public will accept this now. If they do, there could be more convicts. Well, and I agree with what Jackie said. I will also say from sitting in the courtroom, although my lens is not objective and neutral.

about them. I have to admit that up front. But I don't think the crown has proved what it's trying to prove. The crown has been somewhat hapless in its presentation of its case. It's certainly the crown has ignored or as has annoyed the judge. And the judge is pretty clever, pretty smart, picks up on things. But I was warned about that too because I had may have been Bruce Party again. but some lawyer I know who's smart, like Bruce has said,

that can also be a ruse where the judge is bending over backwards to be nice to the defense so that if she finds against the defense, nobody can say she was crooked. That's the cynical thing, but I like the way she's been running the courtroom. I have to say that. And she does express some frustration to put it mildly with the way the crown's proceeding. And there are these moments when the crown presents what should be, and what it perceives as incriminating evidence, i.e. body cam footage from the cops,

where the police are being aggressive and the truckers are shouting love over fear. Like, it's totally exculpatory, right? And the judge was even like, well, how is this bad? They're really, you know, behaving peacefully. And then there was another one they showed where I think a cop had hit somebody in the head. And this was supposed to be incriminating of the truckers. And the judge even said, oh, do you mean the one where the guy, where the copped person they had? So she's catching all of it. Now, is there some legal technicality around a mischief or a counsel to mischief or whatever? These are really obtuse charges where they could get them or would the crown, you know, want that or, well, the attorney general, I guess, is behind it.

But it's possible. And then we come to the possibility they'll get offered a plea bargain. no jail time or a charge will they want to accept the charge if they believe the charge is not true and go on because just so people understand you know there's a word going around it's called lawfare and it's where you charge people with things because the process is as troubling as if you've been found guilty so it kind of doesn't matter what happens at the end I don't I don't have knowledge that that's what happened here it could be going on it certainly is happening a lot in the states it might be happening to some degree with the coots for in alberta some of this stuff seems real overreach for me but also if you look at the idea these crown attorneys don't inhabit our world these crown attorneys are they were probably super covidian they're probably super you know like they vote liberal blah so you know maybe they don't see it that way but um they may be chris and tamera and i never actually asked them how they would if they would take a plea bargain that they

felt was unfair but kept them out of jail. I don't know. I guess we'll see. As they say, time will tell how that's going to go. I talked to briefly with Tamara this morning and I don't know when the show is airing, but the crown abruptly ended the case on Monday, which is November 20th. Correct. When Monday was, abruptly ended its case and it had another witness. It didn't even bother bringing that last witness. Now, the trial will. supposed to be 16 days it is now gone into 27 days and they're so they've abrupt they've ended their their case the crown on monday the defense will start but next week the until december 1st the the defense will be putting forth all sorts of emotions that this should not be brought

under the charter because there's no evidence that they they did anything against the charter of rights And then their trial will be sometime in January. And according to Tamara's lawyer, Lawrence Greenspawn, he's going to use five days. They're only going to have five days. And then we'll see what happens. But that's where it stands right now. I suspect one of his motions next week will be to dismiss

or whatever set aside or whatever on the basis that the Crown didn't prove its case. That's pretty standard. Yeah. And the judge could rule. rule upon that in a day or in a week or whatever. So everything we've seen at this point, ladies, is the chances it's ruled on in a day is what?

Next to zero. Yeah. That's correct. The judge, sometimes she has to go and visit somebody or she's a condens this appointment, or she has to look over this stuff and make a decision because these things are not like,

I mean, I don't know. When you're watching on TV. The judge is not the person holding up the trial at this point. It's not the judge. It's the question. It's the crown. Yeah, right about that. The crown, when we were first down there, we were stunned, we thought we were going into like a Perry Mason. They go, oh, they get in there, and the crown sort of like, it was a bit Barney Fife at the beginning there. They just

worked together. They weren't prepared. They seemed to be not prepared, yeah. He seemed to be not prepared. Maybe they were, but my perception was, oh, this isn't going like I thought it was supposed to go. So the law fair thing, justice, is that, You know, the longer the trial goes, the lawyers are expensive. They have to stay in Ottawa. They're away from home. A trial is an exhausting process too. You know, it might not seem like it.

But even, I even find that the air quality in courtroom five, which is where the trial's being held, by two o'clock, I was ready for a nappy poo. You know, I was done. And I wasn't working very hard. I was just sitting there observing and live tweeting here and there when the mood struck me. but it's kind of an exhausting place to be, actually.

So it's hard on them. Any time, you know, this is where my cynicism might come in just a little heavy ladies. But any time you put one person as the judge juror and like this is where it's going to fall, you know, I just go back to the Public Order Emergency Commission. And if you paid attention to that one, you know, over and over and over and over again, you just saw that it didn't meet the threshold, didn't meet the threshold, didn't meet the threshold. I don't know how many experts we need to have say that. And at the end, they were like, well, no, it met the threshold and check, everybody's fine.

So you can have a little bit of skepticism, I think, when it comes to something like this. And my, I go, there should be no way they go to jail. But, I mean, if anything, you know, when we look across Canada right now, I think, that's almost an irrational thought because it's like what they've shown is they're willing you know to draw this out they're willing to you know honestly put innocent people in jail and and they went against the machine and the machine wanted what it wanted and they uh put a real wrench in the old gear shift and uh decided that wasn't going to happen and now you go what's the consequences of that we're going to find out because you know like when i look at tamara leach specifically i'm

like I don't know if there's a more like there could be giant protests if she lands in jail and I think she knows that and I think she's ready to go to jail in my conversations with her I don't think she's pleading I could be wrong on that but in my conversations I don't know if I've ever got to a point with her where she's like you know I plead a yell out if you know just to get back to life because she looks at this and goes there is no life but we don't get this right right like the line is set And so that's like, you know, what's the dark night line? Unstoppable force meets an irremovable object. That's kind of the mentality we have going here,

where it's a game of chicken between the Crown and Tamara Leach of like, who's going to blink first? And I think she's made it pretty clear. She's not really interested in going anywhere but the truth. And they're kind of like, well, we'll see. So I think it's going to be like horrifically fascinating. I don't know if I can say that the right way. I just like I'm really tense because I want it to be over.

I think lots of Canadians, just let the poor people go and be done with this and move on. And yet that doesn't seem to be the case. Where can? I think her going to jail would be an international incident. I do. I think it would be a test here. But listen, I let me just one quick thing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You got plenty of time, Trish. Oh, okay. Well, the podcast does a lot of out of country. People do a lot of stuff out of the UK. We do stuff out of Australia, certainly America. Everybody wants to talk to me about the truckers. Everybody wants to talk to me.

They all love them. And if they were put in jail, I believe there would be people in the streets. And maybe the pro-Palestine demonstrations have actually done us a favor because you can't let them. do that. I think they should be allowed to do it within reason, because I'm a total free speecher. I don't think we can pick and chew. I, you know, I support Black Lives Matter, protesting as long as they're not burning stuff down and doing bad stuff like they did. You know, I don't think we can pick and choose, which the prime minister wants to do.

He even said that, that some protests are worthy because basically, because he agreed with the premise, right? Yeah, it's because it fits the narrative of where they're staring this thing. The narrative. So what I'm saying is maybe these current demonstrations, the size of them are breathtaking, has set the stage that if there's more protests to come, maybe the government will be of two minds before they do what they did. But who knows, right? Like it's, I have a hard, I have a hard time.

I have a hard time believing that. Honestly, to me, they've seen. I don't know why I just said that. It was wrong. I agree. I just look at, I just look at, I just go back to the one million. march for children. Just simple.

That one was big. Now, was it a million people? I don't know. But it was a call across Canada. And what did the government do? They marched against it. And the official opposition said, nobody touched this.

Nobody touch it. You're like, hmm. Not to mention all the unions who were all in, let's give the kids porn and pills, you know, those people. Well, public sector unions, which is, the PR team, meaning for the Liberal Party.

I personally think, I kind of agree with Sean, is that if she does go to jail, I agree with all, there will be trouble. Because when I talk to my relatives and people in England or I watch other news networks, the one thing people always refer to is when Trudeau froze the bank accounts, that freaked a lot of people out in their network.

freak me out because I donated to the truckers. It freaked a lot of people out like, whoa, what? Is this far? Government is prepared to go to tell you, we don't like what you're doing. That is a moment in time that I think they have, that made it international. And I think Tamara and Chris represent that. So I think there is a little bit of Trudeau that wants, he wants to make sure that he gets a little bit of his way back.

Like, that's why I agree kind of with Sean that I, I don't think he wants to let them off. But the times have changed, too. As Trish just mentioned, with these protests happening now, what these guys did in Ottawa seems like, they seem, it's pretty simple. Okay, they brought a bunch of trucks. Maybe the honking was bad, but nobody died.

I was in the streets of Ottawa. The honking wasn't, I mean, you know, sure. Was it loud the first couple days? Sure. But I mean, over time, it was, you know, I was out on the streets doing interviews. And half the time I'm doing the interview, you can't hear the horns. So it's like, I don't know. At some point, like, there's just, it's such an easy agenda.

It's such an easy narrative to see for most people. And if you fit inside it, you're going to have free reign of Canada. And if you don't, this is why you're on here. And this is why you're talking about your documentary. This is why you can't get the funding from, you can't go to Netflix and Amazon and have this wonderful story told about this woman in Canada that is larger than life

that the international community is like, can you please tell us more? And yet you're, it's like, yeah, but we can't even get funding for it. It's like, like, what a wild, you know, thing to say. But I just come back to it. If the CBC was all about just like, we need to get back popular,

they would put on their own, 15 part mini series on this. They could just dig into it. And they got the ladies, they have the money. They have the resources. They got like all this stuff. And they're using it instead to silence us all. It's like, this is, oh, this is, you get strangers.

But I do think also, Sean, that there is an element of class struggle around this. I've certainly talked about this before. Class struggle, Trish? Is that what you said? Yeah, class struggle. Okay. So there is the laptop class or, you know, Gordon McGill calls them the email class. The people who stayed in their apartments and condos, who ordered their Uber Eads, who rode their pelotones, who got paid during the whole lockdowns and were like super cool with working from home.

And wow, this is like really groovy. And, you know, they're kind of people who make 150 and up ballpark, you know. And then there's there. And then there's the trucker movement and kind of the. the rest of Canada who aren't those people. And specifically that the truckers were a blue collar movement. It could not not have been a blue collar movement. It had to be a blue collar movement, as these things in history have always been.

Because what happened during COVID is that the laptop class and the educated class got completely mired in their own BS, right? They started believing their own talking points. They started subverting science to uphold the ridiculous things that they were asking people to do. And sometimes, like the emperor's new clothes, it takes somebody with a different perspective, in the case of the emperor, it was a kid. I'm not saying that the truckers were childlike, but I am saying they're not captured by the ideology that binds these so-called elites together against everybody else. And they just kind of rationally said, this ain't working. This is hurting people. We need to stop it. And sometimes that clear, like it was like Lech Valenza and the Solidarity Movement in Poland, right? Sometimes somebody speaking plainly and clearly after years of propaganda rings out like the most beautiful Shakespearean poem ever written. We heard them and we heard them very,

deeply in our hearts because of who they were and how plainly speaking they were and how sincere they were and to boot it was freezing cold and they put everything they had on the line their businesses their trucks their reputations everything they did they put everything on the line not knowing how it was going to end can you imagine we all know what happened with the truckers it was a success, right? But these guys and women suited up in the middle of a Canadian winter in their trucks and drove across country to protest something without even knowing what was going to happen. They had no clue. And they did it and they stayed and they did it with a lot of humility and pride that I feel rubbed off on the people who were supporting them. We all felt like better

human beings because of them because they were modeling something that we weren't seeing. Who is the courage and who got all the praise? Teresa Tam, you know, clap for cares, clap for the doctors who won't let you say goodbye to your husband who's dying of cancer because they can't figure out a PPE to let you in. You know, or the old people in long-term care who died of broken hearts. But the people running that, we're supposed to think they're heroes and that the truckers who saw through it all are not heroes, not where I come from. You know, and restored something in our country, didn't they?

And the other thing with that class you're talking about, Trish, and I think Jackie pointed it out right at the start, is there's a bit of self-censorship in that group as well, where you don't say exactly what is on your mind, because if you do, there's reprimand for it. Whereas in the blue collar world, you know, like that's just the culture. You say what's on your mind, because if you don't say what's on your mind, you're going to walk all over. much, you know? This was the most un-Canadian event that I've witnessed that made me have hope that the Canada I love is there.

It was just sort of, it's been incubating because most Canadians, as we said, went along with this stuff, or even if they disagree, didn't say anything. These guys with their trucks, they went full tilt boogie. We're not taking this anymore. You know, it's like stick your head out the window. I'm mad as hell. I'm not going to take it anymore. And they did it. And to me, that's what gave me the hope. There are still people out there willing to risk it all. How many of us would do that. And that's why I think Tamara and Chris are the people that are in the right place and the fact that they represent that.

And that's the part that gives me hope. And I just hope that the rest of Canadians, not all of them will, but I just hope that others will begin to see that. No matter what... We're kind of reframe it, aren't we, Jackie? Because the propaganda against them was so strong. And the prime minister was seating the territory before they even reached Ottawa, so that if you supported the truckers, you were supporting a Nazi, you were supporting a homophope, they were unacceptable, they were fringe.

All of those seeds were planted because, frankly, he was too much of a self-serving coward to go and talk to them. And if you ask Tamara this question, ask any of them this question, they were in the midst of talks when the jackboot of the Emergencies Act came down. And it's very likely it would have been sorted in a much less traumatic way for this country.

If he had been acting like a leader, a leader leads the whole country. He doesn't just lead for his base. You lead for the whole country. you show the country who and what we are by modeling behavior that we can aspire to be like, he failed that test. If he'd come out of the building early on and walked across the street with some aides and sat down with Tamara and Chris and the rest of them and Tom Marazzo and the rest

and had a discussion that maybe led to one change or two changes or some idea that they'd had an impact, they would have gone. And certainly the day or two before the Emergency Act came down, it's very likely that they would have gone home if he'd given them five cents. So my question is, why wasn't the convoy worth five minutes of our prime minister's time or one of his diplomats or one of the people in the cabinet? Why weren't they worth that? Because I think, Trish, when you were talking about that, we did talk to Tamara and Chris about that.

and what they said was they would have even accepted if one of Trudeau's minions had come out, some spokesman from the PMO's office. But they were just shut down. There was going to be nothing. This is the same guy that went out and took a knee and, you know, he did all this. And he wouldn't even send out an envoy to speak with them.

Not even an envoy. If you meet with them, ladies, you're giving them credibility. And even though that should have been, I mean, but, you know, like, it's funny to listen to you. to talk and then to sit where I sit, surrounded by, you know, I don't know what the, you know, I don't know what the percentage is. But in my world, I have to think something like, it doesn't

matter where you fell on COVID, I would say, and maybe I'm high on this, but it feels like eight out of ten people, agree with what went on with the convoy. And like, we all just stared at it from over here and you seen all the videos and certainly I was there for a portion of it. And you, you, you realize like, okay, yeah, this is good. Fair enough. Like, let's move on. You know, there's, there's the farmers out here that that fought the wheatboard once upon a time. And they have their story and it resembles similar to what's going on. Like it's, it's like when you get frustrated out West, sometimes you got to kick a little, uh, uh, uh, dust up, you know, and, and really make a, an example of what's going on, I guess. And so where we, where I said, it's like, they didn't meet, you know, when you, you want some, you want Trudeau to be something that he is not. He was never going to make a, he was never going to. meet with him. He made that adamantly clear. He hid behind COVID. He hid behind a whole bunch of things. He called him a small fringe minority. He attacked him because if he allows him the seat at the table, then maybe, you know, there's, then it's, it's admitting some wrongdoing. And I mean,

look at what just happened with the carbon tax. By him offering an, you know, oh, we're going to give a tax, but not to nobody else. I mean, the house of cards around carbon tax is falling. It's crumbling now. Like, it's just like, it was a, if, if, if all the things he did, you know, if, if all the things he done to this point, even though I disagree with them all, was leading him towards possibly getting elected again. Everything from maybe the convoy onwards he's been doing in a way that just puts the nails in his coffees and that he's never getting elected ever again, because he just keeps doing things that are sewing even more into all different classes, age demographics, across the country that he is no longer fit to lead if he ever was.

I agree with you. I almost wonder, and I haven't heard any reporter or journalist or media person say to Trudeau. You know, in light of what's been happening lately and there's been this disparity and we're sort of out of COVID, are you rethinking your thoughts on the truckers and their disper, you know, their anxiety? Because even the New York Times has come out and said we overdid it. they overdid it with COVID. No, I haven't heard any reporter ask him that. Do you think you get a straight answer, though, Jackie, out of that? Well, no, but the question is, the important part is the question.

It's funny. He just literally said to reporters, we've always ran, what was it, a balanced budget, not a balance budget, we've always been fiscally responsible. What was the quote, ladies, something along that lines? And you're just like, he's just gaslighting the entire population at this point. Well, he's also the guy who said he never forced anybody to get the vaccine. Correct, right? Yeah. I know.

That must be a follow-up. Like, let me just sort of do journalism 101. You know, at Jackie and I had been in that scrum with him, he would never have gotten away with that. Because in the olden days, they would have kept harassing him until you got a result that actually made sense. But that was just a lie. And they let him lie and off he goes. But see, they know. they can lie now. That's why we're in danger because the government's no longer afraid of the people

and they should be. When it comes to the documentary, I was about to say document. The documentary, I was about to say document. The documentary, is it GoFund me ladies? Or is it crowdfund? Oh, no. Gips and go. Of course I said the, and it's the third. Can you send me the link? Because what I'll do is I'll put it in the show notes and if people want to click on it and then they get, you know, nice and easy, I know I know me. It's like, where do I got to go? If I got to, you know. So if we put it in the show notes, they can just scroll down that way they can have nice, easy access to it.

Before I let you out of here, though, I have to, you guys live on the other side of the country from me. This thing at Niagara Falls, do you know anything about it? Like with the car exploding or, you know, I've seen the videos of it like going 100 miles an hour and jumping. Like, have you heard? What of your sources or contacts or conversations like? led to on this. I was going to have heard. I don't know if you've heard this, Trish.

We and I haven't talked for. It's been at least like what few hours. Okay, I'm going to give you two scenarios. And the latest I'm hearing, according to the Buffalo police and the local is that this guy and his wife were going to go to a kiss concert. The kiss guy got the one of the guys in the band got the flu. So they weren't going to go to the kiss concert. Now this guy apparently has lots of dough and he was driving a car that was worth like 300 grand.

He came out of the 7-11. I heard there was alcohol involved and that's why he went 100 miles an hour. Hit that medium and flew. I mean, he didn't just fly up in the air. He soared. I've seen the video. It was amazing. And they said, so it really wasn't a terrorist act.

So that's what I'm hearing. So no, not to worry, all the borders are reopened. So I'm always going, well, Well, really? Is that all there is? Well, people jump the gun, including false news. They did jump to them. They jumped to them. I didn't want to say something in their defense.

I got a text yesterday from somebody I super trust with a photograph in the text message taken by one of the border guys there of this event right after it happened, saying that the border guys down there were telling her that it was definitely terrorism and that there was a bomb planted. somewhere. So I actually think it wasn't terrorism. But the people down there were telling, it seems they were telling people it was terrorism. So I think that was the, you know, there's a lot of things to be mad at Fox about sometimes. They, you know, they do jump the gun a bit on this stuff. But, but they, I have no doubt that one of their news people was very likely told by somebody in charge there that there was a terrorist attack or a bomb or something like that because I got it from a very reliable person who knew the person at the border she was

talking to. And that's also because because it flew up in the air so high and came down. It was like, you would think, oh, a car doesn't explode like that. There has to be explosives inside. So that was one of the reasons because the car was completely blown to smithereens. They couldn't even see the license plate. Yeah, it did. So yeah, it. But you can understand why people think it might be a terrorist attack, because that's a very busy border. You've got four crossings, the Rainbow Bridge, the Lewiston Bridge, the Queenston Bridge. I mean, I used to work around there.

I know how it's a pretty busy crossing. It's almost like the Ambassador Bridge in Windsor. These are very busy crossings. So they were already on alert down there to begin with. And it was New York State. So, of course, all the Kathy Hochol and Schumer and that. that had to come in and come to the rescue and tell everybody, everything's fine, don't go home. Well, everybody's on red alert, right, because of the Israel Gaza thing and the unfettered

migration, and we don't know who's coming across their border or are sometimes. So I understand why people are frightened right now. I do understand that. They would jump to that conclusion, for sure. Yeah, border issue. Yeah, well, you've got tensions just ratcheting up more and more and more. you're starting to see protests. I mean, I was actually listening to your guys' conversation on your show, Trish,

talking with when you were talking with Jackie about the homeless problem in Toronto. And you're just like, but that's not just Toronto. That's like across the board, right? Like there's a huge homelessness problem that is right across Canada. You know, I don't know if you can find a place that isn't being affected by it at this point. And so there's just, there's a lot of moving parts. here and then you you know I get friends in the States are texting what's going on again i'm going i don't know what do we do today and then you know the first thing you see is a terrorist attack and you're

like oh my god okay well what is this about right and you know it's it's hard without the being able to to flip on the news and go they're telling me the exact truth maybe they've never have but geez i used to just turn it on and and you felt like you were getting the full story and now you know that that's not quite the case No. Yeah, you're getting a narrative is what you're getting. Well, now you have to go, okay, I'm going to hear the story here. I'm going to go this, hear your story here, I'm going to go to this newspaper. I'm going to go to that site.

You have to really do that now. Unless you decide you want to be a Toronto Star, CBC kind of people, then that's where you go to. And a lot of people do, especially where we are. Well, on the star, as you probably know, are the ones who have that terrible front page. means like let them die and we hate them and they don't deserve health care and all that stuff. I will never ever forgive them for that. That to me is almost like historically, let's just say European propaganda during a very bad time or even Rolanda propaganda during a very bad time. I mean, talk about trying to other and segregate and demean and threaten people who aren't behaving the way they should.

I'm unvaccinated and it's one of the proudest things. I've ever done now. I suffered. I didn't see my lovely boy graduate from Dalhousie University because I couldn't get on a plane. He did five years hard slog. Imagine going to university in a foreign town, they're away from home, living in a basement apartment, not allowed on campus because Dowell was closed because of COVID, right, alone. On his little remote learning deal, you know, calling me, mom, oh, it's one pretty sad, you know, and he graduated. with honors and I couldn't even be there to cheer for him. But you know what? He went from thinking mum, he was studying biology and he went from thinking mom was a nut to thinking mom's pretty brave and

smart and he supports the fact that I didn't get the shot in order to see him graduate. So, you know, there is a season. You know, I wanted to add that I'm in the television industry where I do long series documentary formats. And we do some reenactments and they were mad. The film and industry was madly COVID. I mean, you couldn't go anywhere. Everybody was masked. It was unbelievable to do an interview.

You have your mask on and then you could take your mask off. And then if the audio guy got too close for you, go put your mask back on. Well, okay, so that was the rules. We thought it had subsided. I just got an email from the condo people down here in saying that there's going to be some filming next week outside here and the top of the memo from the film is we're following the

COVID procedures and stuff. They're still COVID crazy. They are still doing it. It is unbelievable. This is another reason why Jackie and I are now making films on the fringe, literally and figuratively on the fringe because we can't, I can't. She was on the road a bit. during COVID and she'd call me from she had one thing in New Jersey and say everybody on the sets wearing a mask they're all COVIDian you know it's like horrible yeah it's um well it's it's a it's a time in uh in history that you know for the rest of my time I'm never we're gonna get gonna forget and there's a whole you know there's it isn't this small minority or this fringe it's it's actually a healthy chunk of the Canadian population that went through it and uh have seen it you know have

seen the structures for what they are and what they're capable of. And there's just, that's why I say, you know, when I, to me, it's brought a lot of light because I remember thinking, you know, I just interviewed, I just keep stumbling on these people. Last one. And have you ever heard Trish or Jackie for that about a lady named Linda Blade? Is that name, Maria Bell? No. Oh, you would love Linda Blade.

She is a firecracker. I can, she's written a book on trans athletes. and she was back in the 80s, a track superstar, and sat on the bus with, oh, it's a wild story, but like she was, you know, she trained elite athletes for the last 30 years. She was on the bus with Ben Johnson, hearing his team talk about the doping.

So none of that scared her. She understood it was coming and yada, yada, yada. And now she's talking out about trans women and how they're destroying sports, not just female sport, but like sports in general. And she lives like two hours from me. So she came in studio and I'm like, I keep finding these people in Canada every week,

and I'm like, where on earth have I been living? Under Iraq, obviously. And so I have a lot of, I don't know, I just see more and more and more Canadians standing up, and whether it's your show or others, you keep finding them. And we're finding a way to give them a voice, which means the population is getting to hear more and more of it.

And I go, you know, there's no wonder why the CRTC is racing towards trying to shut down a whole bunch of people. of things, whether if that's what they stayed or not, it's like, well, we can't have the population hearing these people. Like, I mean, you know, when it was Donald Trump, that was one thing. When it was Tucker Carlson, okay, that was something else. But now it's our own people starting to talk amongst each other. And it's like, well, we better shut this down quick. It's like, well, that's probably fair because if you don't, well, we're coming for you all. You know, it's kind of like, and there's more and more of these people starting to congregate

together. That's why it's been rowdy. You know, we're getting rowdy, right, Jackie? We're getting rowdy. Yeah. We're getting rowdy. You know, I'll tell you one very funny story. When we were in Ottawa on the trial open, there was a bunch of people, the pro and the ante. And there was one guy there, and I think he was, he was obviously a retired public sector worker.

He just had the look in the field because who else can be, I always go to, what do these people do that can protest? They must have great gigs. But anyway, he was out the court. We started talking and I won't get into it, but we had a discussion. He said, I'm just going to say one thing. Do you like Tucker Carlson? I said, oh, I love Tucker Carlson. He went, that's it.

Turned around and he walked away. Who was the guy in front of the building with, was he wearing a flag? Remember we had a nickname? Oh, there's like there's a, oh, there. And I don't know if you've heard of this guy, Sean. I can't remember where he's from. But he's the guy with the tinfoil hat guy. Yeah, tinfoil hat man.

There's a guy and they call him tinfoil hat man. He has decided to stand outside of. the court with a big Canadian flag that's about 15 feet high or high until the trial is over. And he wears it. He had a hat on that's kind of a cap that's semi-tinfoil haty. That's why he gets called tinfoil hat man. But you know, everyone thinks, oh, he's a crazy nut. When you start talking to him, he's actually a pretty smart guy and I kind of agreed with him a lot. But he has decided that he's going to take this stand, which is. those are the people you kind of go i'm glad those kind of people are around yeah on this side

100% well ladies i appreciate you coming on and uh and and i say one thing yeah absolutely jackie and i almost didn't do the interview today because we thought you didn't have the anti-wrinkle filter on your platform like zoom does and then we found it it's it says it's new when we're so happy you have it because that's our rule now we're not doing anything about the anti-ring call thing uh-huh it's because everything is about lighting everything on broadcast is about lighting well you look lovely today you know um i love this time appreciate you ladies hopping on and talking and uh sharing a little bit about some of the projects you're working on and updating us on some some things out east as well it's always uh i think probably on this side i should try and make

it more of a mainstay of trying to get you uh one of you ladies on to kind of update what is going on on the other side we get so not focused on on western things but if you don't talk to the other side you know lots of things can pass in a short period of time you're kind of like what on earth is happening so appreciate you ladies coming on and uh an update in us and look forward to uh hearing who you got coming on next trish because uh been enjoying some of the the interviews you've been doing april hutchinson well so when you interview april hutchinson you know the name she's going to give you linda Blade. Oh no. Is it the same person? No, no, no. April Hutchinson gave me Linda Blade. I'm going to, I'm going to, as soon as this is done, we're going to exchange numbers. I'm going to give you Linda Blade and you will not be disappointed. Because April, April's like phenomenal. And the one of her people who's in her corner is Linda Blade. And Linda Blade is a little spitfire. And yeah. We got to support the.

women who are fighting? 110%. We need a trucker convoy for women athletes to go and just say stop this garbage because it's ridiculous. We don't like it. That's right. As long as it has like a little mirror in that

when you put the blindfolder down, you can still put lipstick on. Thanks ladies. I'm not kidding. Thanks ladies. We'll chat soon, I'm sure. Bye, Sean. You're a peach. Thanks for doing this. Thank you very much. We appreciate it. It was great. It had a lot of fun.