Shaun Newman Podcast - #545 - Tammy Peterson 2.0

Episode Date: December 7, 2023

She hosts the Tammy Peterson Podcast, is a public speaker, cancer survivor and wife of Jordan Peterson. This is the 2nd time Tammy has hopped on the podcast. We discuss book clubs, losing friends, the importance of a dating routine and whether she thought her relationship would survive with Jordan. Let me know what you think. Text me 587-217-8500 Substack:https://open.substack.com/pub/shaunnewmanpodcast E-transfer here: [e-mail] Website: https://silvergoldbull.ca/ Email: [e-mail] Phone [phone] – general sales line, ask for Grahame and be sure to let us know you’re an SNP listener.

This is Tanner Nadee. I'm Trish Wood. This is Tammy Peterson. This is Curtis Stone. This is Quick Dick McDick. This is Carrie the Don, and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks. Happy Thursday.

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She hosts the Tammy Peterson podcast. She's a public speaker, cancer survivor, and wife of Jordan Peterson. I'm talking about Tammy Peterson. So buckle up. Here we go. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast today. I'm joined by Tammy Peterson. Welcome back, ma'am.

Thanks for coming back. Thank you. It's good to be with you again, Sean. Well, this morning, we're going to, I'm looking at my eyes. I'm like, I look tired this morning. And so we're going to start on kids because this weekend, my youngest, he's four, he's got the flu. So last night, he got put in bed with me. My wife went and slept on the couch.

And he's like running hot and, you know, just like up every 30 minutes. And I'm, you know, so you're sitting beside him and you're trying to get him to go back. sleep and while you're trying to sleep and you yeah probably preaching the choir here then I go this morning to to get my um like my my my uh paste for my hair right like when one of those little containers I open it up and it's full of toothpaste the kids have filled it with toothpaste I'm like all right all right this is how the week's starting all right I'm like my wife's looking at me she's like what is that I'm like I have no idea I think it's toothpaste anyways so my hair smells minty fresh this morning Tammy and and I thought maybe uh maybe we could

just start with with with kids did you always want to have kids yeah i did i did i did i always want i didn't really want to have a husband i had some uh i think i had some feminist narrative rub off on me when i was younger and so i thought maybe i could do it all on my own but by the time i was about 18 i realized that that was uh that was a shallow idea and it needed to be fleshed out because because I could also use some help with the baby. But I thought I could just have a baby and somehow buy a van and travel around with my baby. That was my teenage dream, pretty shallow and pretty uninformed. But, you know, if you don't talk about these things, sometimes they just stay that way.

Yeah, I always wanted kids. Why a van, why traveling around with a baby? What was it about that? Well, look at now, I'm traveling around with my baby all over the world. I don't know. I don't know. In children, you know, we were just, so right now, you know, there's just a bad flu going around. And, you know, it's knocking people down and knocking kids down.

And, you know, anytime your young ones get really sick, it's like, I don't know, like this, as a parent, you're sitting there and you're like, there's really nothing I could, you know, certainly there's things you can do. but you know like some of us just got to run its course and a bad one that that's always you know I was just talking to a friend of mine and they got like a one-year-old and croup and they've had to go in you know we had to go in the hospital not that long ago actually with Casey again just because of his breathing and that's like a really helpless feeling as a parent like it's very um debilitating honestly so it's an uncomfortable feeling to have that with your guys's walk and journey with your children. You guys have had and been throwing every type of curveball. When you first had kids to now, what has been the biggest, well, I don't know, maybe challenge isn't the

right word, Tammy. Maybe it's just like learning. Learning, yeah, learning, I think. Well, you know, the kids were pretty healthy at the beginning, both my daughter and my son. I mean, my daughter slept through the night when she was one month old. What a dream child she was. There wasn't any trouble with her digested. No complaining because, well, although, although when she was quite young, my mother said to me, and she was very quiet, my mom, she said, you know, Tammy, when I had kids, if I ate cruciferous vegetables, you know, cauliflower, broccoli, that kind of thing, my kids' stomachs were upset and I thought okay I'll pay attention to that so I told my husband I said I shouldn't be any cruciferous vegetables he said oh well you know we have to test that so he makes me this

big stir fry of I think it was pork and cauliflower and and curry sauce you know like and so I ate it And Michaela was up with the stomachache all night long, right? All night long. And so Jordan learned at that moment that maybe mothers might have some inkling about what their kids are doing. But really, you're grasping at straws at the beginning because it's a new baby. And you've never had a baby before. And we never had any. Our relatives were far away.

So we had visitors, but no one lived there. So we really were figuring it out for ourselves. I would say that if you can design it so that you have a relative around, that's pretty smart. Because you need a small village to raise a child, right? You need a small village because you can't do it on your own. When you have nights of sleepless nights, it's nice to have someone. You can drop the child off maybe and have a nap so that you can tidy yourself up before you bring that baby. back again. So help. Having a community, I think, is something that I probably didn't really take a very hard look at when we first began. We were the only one with kids around too. We didn't even have any friends with children.

Because mine were the only kids around. And the first year, we were in Montreal. We were downtown Montreal and Michaela was learning to walk. And I'd take her out for a walk and everything she touched, I'd say, don't pick that up. It's garbage because we were downtown and they were cigarettes, butts on the street and things. And, you know, little kids, they're interested in absolutely everything. And so they want to engage with everything. And it wasn't too long after that. We moved to Boston and we moved into a suburban neighborhood where it was children and schools and playgrounds. And that was much better.

So it was much, even though I liked living downtown, it was a happening place. For me and a small child, it was better for me to be in a little bit more of a suburban environment for my baby. And then, of course, we were new in Boston. And we didn't know where to buy a house. We had to search through all the different neighborhoods in the middle of the afternoon and to see if there was anybody there or if this was a neighborhood where everybody left all day to work.

And I was going to stay at home. So I wanted a place where there were mothers and children in the neighborhood. And so we looked around until we found a place where there were mothers and kids, maybe a mom strolling by with a stroller and seeing kids at the place. playground and we thought, okay, maybe this is a neighborhood that we could live in. And it was a

great neighborhood. Once I was pregnant with Julian when we moved into that house. So then I had two kids and I was at home. I didn't have a green card in the States. So Jordan had a green card. I didn't. So I stayed home with my kids. And I thought, well, it's just me and the kids. And I met, met some of the neighbors. They wanted to form a book club. So I went into a book club, found out that those people had kids the same age as my kids. Pretty soon, because I was at home, they were bringing their kids over to my house. And that's what I did was I took care of the neighborhood kids. And so then I had all, then I had the community that I needed, right? So that, so it did come. but I didn't know I needed it and my kids needed friends and so there we were in my house with

usually I only had two or maybe three extra kids and my kids always had playmates and that made for a very good day because then we could just be at home or go to the park and the kids just played all the time and that was super I think that's really important. important that the kids play that because that's what they need to do. Well, you raise an interesting thing that I don't know if I've ever really thought about. I mean, now my kids are growing up in the city, but I grew up on the farm. And you think to when you're little and you have little kids and you're absolutely right, they pick up everything.

They don't, and they lick everything and they just do things where you're like, oh, why are you doing that? And if you're in, like you say, like the downtown of a city and it's cigarette butts and it's like, you know, garbage and then you have to keep telling them no. Have you ever thought about what that was, I don't know, instilling in a child? Because on the flip side, growing out, I mean, you grew up in northern Alberta. Like you walk out into the bush, you can literally do anything and nobody's going,

no, don't touch that. Oh, don't touch that. I mean, certainly a couple things, but for the most part, you know, like everything out in rural, you know, the countryside when it comes to being around the farm and grain farming, and different things like that, just outdoors. Like, you're not finding, you know, a cigarette butt would be pretty random to find out in a pasture or what have you. That's right.

That's right. So, you know, I'm not saying that living downtown is a mistake. It's just more complicated. It's just different. It's just different. And you think if you're a kid, Tammy, you know, like, you could be like, oh, yeah, we don't touch that. We don't touch that. We don't touch that.

But as a, as a farm kid, you touch your house. everything. You're like your hands are and everything. And really there's not a whole, you know, there's some troubles you can get into, but overall not quite the scenario of being downtown in a city. No, I mean, I was lifting up boards in the back to find worms under the boards when I was a little kid, right? So I was digging around everywhere, but it was to find slugs and worms and all kinds of things in the, in the garden. And that's good because kids have to investigate, They have to touch everything. They have to smell everything, taste everything.

They have to understand their world and get to know their world. And they'll do anything to get to know their world. You'll have to forgive me. I can hear someone in the background. Jordan's washing dishes. He's done. He's done. He's done.

I'm like, what on earth is going on? I'm interrupting breakfast is what I'm interrupting. He said, sorry about that. It's quite all right. That's too funny. That's too funny. Yeah. You mentioned a book club.

I told you, I think, in the first time we sat and chatted, that, well, I've been a part of a book club now for like five years. Is that something that you did and then kept doing, or was it sporadic? I did and I kept doing. So in Boston, I was part of a book club for, well, we lived there for five years, so four years maybe. So the whole time that we were there, I was in a book club with, neighborhood women. And then I moved to Toronto and I got involved in a new book club with neighborhood women. And I stayed in that book club right until Jordan made that viral video. And then I went to book club and I couldn't even talk. I was like, what am I going to say to these

women? Because what's just happened to us is, I can't explain it. And I don't know what to say. So, you know, we had reporters lined up outside the house in the foyer, in the living room, on the phone. And that just never stopped. It just kept coming. And all of a sudden, the world wasn't the same for me anymore. The world was same for the rest of the book club. But when I showed up at the book club, I think I was in shock. And I didn't know how to relate to them.

anymore. I didn't know what I should say or not say about so I saw a story stopped going to the book club and I haven't been part of a book club since. Now I have a podcast instead. But you gave up the book club. Well, I did because I don't know. It was just all the things that I want to talk about now were they were more contentious than they had been you know like everything that I knew about

all of a sudden I was aware of what trouble our society was in in a like in a way that I'd never understood it before it was it was obvious that there was some misunderstandings going on that needed to be addressed

but not in my book club. So I quit going. Really? Did it did I'm curious. I assume it was a group of ladies. It was a group of ladies. Did they did they did they reach out to you? No. Really? No. Well, you know, it was the same for Jordan, you know, at work. Nobody, nobody came to his, nobody came to his aid when when the university came after him or even when the woke. mob came after him. There wasn't, none of his, none of the professors at the university stood beside him. And no, I would say none of those people in my book club were. How, how many years did you meet up to that? Let's see, we moved into that house in 1998, 99. So let's say even 2000. And this was 2016 or 17.

Yeah, so I've known them. 15, 16 years. Yeah, I'd known them a very long time. And now, and I don't blame these people because the world is so weird. But we go home now and there are a few people in our neighborhood. And we've been there for 23 years. Our kids grew up there. They knew all the other kids in the neighborhood.

The kids just played on the street all the time, which is another thing that was great about finding a neighborhood that was, that where, where there were people in it. The kids could play outside until the lights came on in the evening and then they'd come home just like when I was a kid. And I really liked that because I gave my kids as much opportunity to have independent time as possible. They just played, they played hide and seek in the neighborhoods, hid in each other's backyards. And they played these games that I don't even know, didn't know how they made up games and played them for hours on it. And, And it was a wonderful place for them when they were young.

But and it was a one, it was a pretty good place for us too, although Jordan was mostly at the university. He was busy. He, you know, he was working day and night, really. He was, he was very busy. But if I stick to, so forgive me, because I'm just trying. That's all right. I'm hearing this. I'm going, okay, so you met with a group of women for roughly 16 years, reading books.

Yeah. Which I think is kind of like a, you know, is a deep discussion because you're talking about ideas and thoughts and different things. And then Jordan does what Jordan does and the world never returns for sure. But, I mean, to not have any discussion, wouldn't the women know exactly who you are? Like, that's a long time to meet with someone. Yeah. Well, I don't think they knew. I don't think they knew that what Jordan was going to say what he said.

And some of these were school teachers. Some of the women were school teachers. And, you know, a lot of what has been going on has been in the education system. And so these women, who knows what they had been teaching and, you know, sharing with their school kids. and I wasn't ready to uncover all of that with them. I was there to read books and to discuss books, and that would have taken us into interesting conversations about, you know, communism and all kinds of things, because who knows what you're reading, right?

And that was great, but when it was right in the room, that was that was too much it was too much for the the group. And since then they've never really reached out to me. Some of them don't even say hello when they kind of say hello but not in a warm way. Yes, I know what you mean. It's funny I look at our book club and it started in 2018 and we rode through COVID together. So like good for you. So like I mean there has been some discussions in that.

that place that you know like I just I just think of it like you know like when you first meet people you know it's and then but then you get pressured and it's it's just like slowly forming this this such I'm sorry I'm forming a fist like such a like a tight knit group because we've literally talked about just about everything under the sun I mean if you went through COVID and started to see things and everything else you know on on for a lot of people if they didn't get the jab here in Canada specifically you know I don't know exactly how all the United States was, but here in Canada, it was, it was pure insanity. And so the group of us, I just, I can't imagine anyone, I mean, I can't imagine at this point

anyone of them doing anything that would all of a sudden force us to just ostracize one. Oh, that, that's, that's tough. I just, I just feel for it because I'm like, you know, you talk about you, you need a community for your kids. And so you formed a book club. And the book club met for, well, that's, that's tough. wasn't like a year. We're talking like almost two decades.

And then your husband goes on, speaks his piece, and all of a sudden it goes viral and everything goes on. And like that's a, that's something you didn't see coming. No, but that's just how divisive. We went to Boston on tour. I had one father and it was his son that I took care of

that came over and played all the time. He came, he came to the theater and we met with them they said hello and his son was now, you know, six foot five. It was a very tall, very tall kid. And but all the other people that I knew, not much communication. Has that, I mean, now that's been, you know, six, seven years since that happened.

Heck, we talked about this last time when you, you know, you've pretty much been on tour for seven years. I was listening to that again before today, and I was like, man, what a wild way to live life. You know, like, that's just such like it doesn't, you know, I guess rock stars and everything else. They do it that way. But, you know, like, that must, you've had seven years to kind of digest, I guess, is where I'm at. With something you created that was so healthy for you and your children and probably your husband as well, you having an outlet that was, you know, something to go have discussions on different things like communism and everything else.

Does that, like, are the only people Tammy who get real close to Tammy now are family and maybe a friend or two? Or do you not approach the world that way? Well, there's also some of my family that doesn't talk to me anymore either because of my association with my husband, as if I was going to choose them over my husband. You know, so we went to Western Canada and we were in one of the towns. that was where my relatives live. I didn't live there. But I told him I was there,

and they thought we could get together. But then when I said that I was with my husband, they said they didn't want to see me. So there's a lot of division in our society, and it goes, and it isn't just COVID that has split people up. It's this strange dive into, living a living a life that is not based on truth and the and the Bible really is that you know is that where you get to then when when you're like the only way we're getting out of this is we got

we got well I mean truth would be nice I would take truth truth truth truth a little bit of that would help you know but we start it'd be a good start you know truth it would be a good start you know truth It would, but you know, it's funny. I don't, I mean, I'd be curious what the audience will say about this, but like, you know, it took me a long time to come back towards the Bible, like a long time. Me too. Yeah. And yet, there's more and more people picking it up, starting to read it because they're like, I don't know what's going on here. And you go, like, how, because right now you got, you got COP 28 happening, right?

You got the climate conference going off in, where is it? Saudi Arabia. want to say and like you know I see the one video it's Hillary Clinton you know they're starting to count deaths related to climate and extreme heat there's just people dying everywhere and and on and on it goes and then you had Jal aljabar saying you know I came to this meeting because I thought we're going to have critical discussion and and he's basically calling them all out saying you know like and I'm just like at what point do we get to where nobody gives a crap about that And it's just the population, and they just go, we're not doing this anymore.

And is the only way to do that in your mind with the Bible, or at least turning back to some sense of like normalously truth, some of the, you know, traditional values? Yeah. But those traditional values are based on the Bible. You know, so that's our society is based on the Judeo-Christianity. So, you know, our values, that's where I'm. values are from and we've tried right we've tried we spent the 20th century getting rid of christian ethics to see if if that would be okay and what we're finding out is no it's not okay we did that experiment didn't work things are more divisive and uh they're not running things

aren't going well and so that experiment failed and so we need to to pick up where we left off before we veered off to the left this time and to the right. We're just veering off in different directions from what is true and central to our society. So we need to go back there again. I'm certain of it. So when you mentioned, you know, okay, you got the book club, now you got family who, you know, and it's like, well, I'm not choosing you over my husband, which, uh, It makes complete sense on this side.

How do you approach the world? I just, I guess I'm going to come back to it because I'm like, man, that's, hmm. Like, are you, are you, not that, I don't even know how to ask you. I just look at it and I'm like, how do you interact with people and know if they're going to, you know, like? Well, I don't, I don't, uh, randomly reach out to people. I don't, I don't randomly. assume that they're going to want to speak with us. So we don't do that.

So we don't avoid going anywhere. But when we get there, we let people come to us more than we reach out to people, I would say, just on the street or in the neighborhood. And there are some friendly people in the neighborhood. But there's also people who are. over the top fans in the neighborhood and those are also kind of it's not it's not a normal relationship really yeah I can imagine I can imagine have you have you been surprised with somebody that you didn't think you weren't that close with and now you're really close with

okay yeah that that's happened that's happened because it's interesting you never know who you're going to stay like when you change locations you live somewhere and then you move quite a ways away and you move somewhere else you don't know who's going to stay in touch with you so this is kind of a similar thing is we've made quite a departure from where we were who's going to who's going to maintain a relationship with us and i would say largely all of jordan's friends have stayed friends with him, I would say. And even from high school, right? In fact, we're going to a high school reunion this summer coming up,

and the organizers made sure that we had time to come. So we'll see, I guess, how many people come to the reunion, but I wouldn't doubt that everybody comes. So on the whole, there's lots of people who are on the side of truth, and want to negotiate and reconcile. And, you know, they really want to continue to understand and be a part of the solution rather than creating a problem. Most people.

When you look at Jordan and how all his friends have stayed friends, essentially, what has he done, I don't know, is it differently? Or what has he done so well that that's the case? because I would feel like men or women. That's usually not the case, not all stay friends, especially when they become such a lightning rod for such device of, you know, exactly what you were talking about. Yeah.

No, well, George, his friendships are deep. They're pretty deep. You know, he asks questions and he delves into people's lives and he finds out what it is that makes them. take get up in the morning and you know get get with it and so then he finds out if there's impediments to that and he talks to people about what's going on in their lives and so by the time this happened he also had great philosophical conversations with everyone he doesn't keep his his thoughts to himself

obviously right so he's always been like that you know when I I met him when I was seven or eight years old. And he was interesting already when he was already reading and discussing ideas when he was a little kid. And so he was interesting right away. So he spent his life really telling people what he thought. So it wasn't a surprise to his friends what he thought. I think it was a surprise that what he thought was going to cause so much trouble. and be so such a, like you said, a lightning rod for so many people.

Well, he said things and continues to say things, but I remember being in the audience when he came to Eminton the first time, and I think that was 28. Oh, no, I know it was because we formed the book club the same day. Oh, is that right? We drove up and we saw him, and on the way back, we're like, we should form a book club. Oh, good idea.

And we're sitting there and, you know, he's, walking around on stage and I I would love to have just been like a fly on the wall or just had like been able to sit on stage just to watch the crowd because it must have be something incredible you'd have that that perspective now being on stage with Jordan where if it's your third time seen him I it's like it's good but if it's your first time ever seeing him you're like what is this and I'm only talking from my perspective but he started saying things and my brain was trying to keep up with them and I could I was having real hard time because he says a lot of big words and he's using all these you know hand gestures and like oh man and when you come out of it

you're like he said some things in there that make complete sense and I haven't heard that out of anyone in so very long you know it's just like there it is okay and I assume sitting on stage you see that out of the crowd well I see the attention everyone's paying attention There aren't people, you don't see anybody sleeping in the audience or. Or scrolling their phone? No, or scrolling their phone or even talking among each other. They're just paying attention. And they usually have a book, a notebook and a pencil, and they're writing notes down too.

Trying to keep up, right? Trying to keep it all organized. For so long we've been, I don't know. I'm just, when you say that, I think like, okay, so why is that? It's like, well, I think of like my entire life. And certainly I would say church you would think would be a place you go and you listen to somebody speak and you're supposed to be paying attention. And, you know, I didn't get any of it. I just went all over my head, Tammy.

I'm going to be honest. Me too. Me too. But other than that, you know, like I've had, I think one professor in my life and I apologize to all the other ones. He was a history professor where I actually got that engaged. He was such a good orator. He could just explain things. He could answer questions.

He could think on his feet. It was just like, it was just amazing. I was like, oh, wow. And other than that, you know, like, I'm trying to think of the next, you know, like a comedian would maybe be similar. Yeah. But never anyone talks. Never. That's who he's compared to as a comedian.

But never anyone who, who's talking about things that are like, you know, you're not supposed to talk about almost, you know? Like, nobody will find that interesting except we all find it interesting. We're all like, that's, huh. It's an interesting thought. gotta go think about it. I mean, geez, you know, I always think, what's the, um, the ripple effect? What can one person do? And you, you look at what, what, uh, what he's been able to do. And now, like, adding you in on stage and I told you when you guys danced on stage, that was just magnificent. That was, that was just a thing of absolute sheer beauty, um, that I've ever seen.

Um, and I don't know why. I actually don't know why other than like, I guess it's nice to see married couple, like actually dance and be confident and like, I don't know, because we get told. But we're not celebrating that, are we? No, we're not celebrating that. Because it wasn't like, I mean, all we did was stand up and do maybe, maybe seven seconds. Yeah. You know, it wasn't very long, right? It wasn't very long. Made the entire show. And I know I'm, I'm, I'm going to be the, the, you know, whatever. I'm a, I'm a hopeless romantic. I love my wife. And I'm like, I see that and I'm like, how do you get there? You know, like, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, heard like certainly we have our own ways where we're already probably there but I'm like

you know I've listened to Jordan and I think I've listened to you talk about like creating no I know I have where you talk about creating a routine a couple's routine date routine that's what it was and I'm like oh that's that's interesting and I'm like so the first time he you know either one of you I don't know who suggests this you can tell me the story let's let's Thursday nights yep we're gonna we're gonna toss on some music and we're just going to dance in the living room was that awkward was that that like this is the greatest thing ever? Was the 50th time, like this is getting a little bit ridiculous at some point?

Or was it just nice to have a few moments to toss on a little bit of music and just dance and kind of talk? And I don't know. Yeah, I'm very curious about it. Well, you know, it happened when we, after we had our first baby. And you know what that's like. Yes. That's chaos, right? That's chaos.

Your whole life goes up in the air and all you can do is attend to whatever. the next right thing for this baby. That's your life for the first while. And so this was within the first few months. I can't remember when it was. He came home and he said, I'm lonely. You're not paying any attention to me anymore. And I said, well, I'm not lonely.

I'm very busy. And I have all my needs taken care of by this baby. I said, but if you're lonely, then maybe we could schedule some dates. And he said, scheduling dates, he said, that doesn't sound very spontaneous. And I said, well, when we were dating, you used to call me, we scheduled dates. So now we're married. Why can't we schedule dates? And he was willing to believe that I might have had some understanding of what I was talking about.

So he decided that would be okay. And when Jordan decides something's okay, he puts it into action. So then it was like, okay, so if we're going to do this, how many times are we going to do this a week. So we negotiated, you know, it was going to be five times a week. It was going to be once a week while we decided three times a week we would take time for each other three times a week. And what would ground rules be? While we had to have ground rules, you know, no cell phone. There weren't any cell phones then, but no, no computer. There were laptops then. So no, no computer, no answering the phone, no answering the door. We're not going to voluntarily engage in anything

but the time that we have with each other. And this is going to be an evening. We're going to say two hours or three hours that we're going to spend together. So it was like, okay, okay. So we get our daughter to sleep and put on something nice and then meet in the living room.

He'd light a candle, put on some music, meet in the living room. And I think at first we just were together there. I think the first time we may have had a nap. I'm not sure, right? Because we had a new baby. So we may have had an up. But still, that was fair game because it was just the two of us.

So anything that you can do, just the two of you is fair game. So it can just be tea. It can be dinner. It can be a walk. It doesn't matter what it is. But it can't have other people involved or even other issues involved. It has to be something that is only between him and I. And so we agreed that we would set something up where we would say, okay, for the next two hours or three hours, it's you and I. That's it. And so that's what we did. And he would say, okay, so tomorrow night, you know, we're going to, or tonight we're going to have, no, I said, I'm too tired today. Well, tomorrow then. And I'd say, yeah, okay, tomorrow. So then tomorrow would come and I would think, okay, so what do I have to do to, um,

to honor this agreement that I've made with him, I have to have a nap because if I don't, if I'm too tired, then I don't want to even stand up and dance with him because I'm too tired. So I have to have a nap today. So in order to honor the deal that I've agreed to, I have to prepare myself. So you're giving yourself time to prepare and make sure that you can come true on your deal. So then we'd meet that night and we'd have a date again, and that would be fine. that's how we went along for quite a long time while our kids were small. And then once our kids grew up and our kids left home, then it was just him and I,

and by then, I don't know how old we were. Maybe we were down to once a week or twice a week that we would have the time to, but it would always be at least once a week. And we still do that. In fact, last night we went out to a place. So we're in our small, this is our hometown that we're in because we're visiting with my husband's family. And so we went for a drive and we used to go for drives in high school. And this is a very, this is a prairie.

So you can see 50 miles away. It's absolutely gorgeous. You can see strings of lights 50 miles away from here. But the horizon is incredible because you can see the mountains. You can see the foothills and you can see the rape seed and the wheat fields. It's just beautiful. One thing after that, it's a very subtle landscape, but it's a beautiful landscape. And the stars at night, because the sky is big, are great.

And so we go for a drive like we used to, out and then sit outside of town and enjoy, enjoy the evening and pay attention to one another pay attention to one another in a generous manner in a you know try to have a spirit of hospitality between us and you don't know where that's going to go

you know it wasn't too long till I was too tired and I said I had to go back and so and that's fine too as long as You've put yourself out there to be present and with each other for some time during that time. Then you've honored the agreement. You know, as you talk, I'm like, oh, that's what's been not bugging me, but I guess bugging me. Hanging out with my wife, like, I had this realization to me probably less than a month ago. I just really miss hanging out with my wife.

She's like, I don't know. There's a reason why I married her, right? Like I just enjoy being around her. I enjoy our conversations. But now with three young ones and working and full time and everything and sports and on and on and on, you can imagine, well, and then you get a sick kid last night and, you know, and it's just, don't get me wrong, all the people who have had their kids move out and say, enjoy that time.

And I'm like, I'm enjoying it. But I look like I've been run over by a truck this morning. And I'm like, you know, all that is a sick kid. And then I go, and then I have this realization of like, man, I just miss hanging out with my wife. But what you're saying is, you know, like, it's not that I don't ever see her. I actually see her quite a bit. But the different, the real different thing of today's age is how inundated you are with everything. Phones, computers, TV.

It's just so easy to flick something on, you know, and I'm thinking, I'm just thinking aloud here, obviously. We'll fold laundry together, and I actually enjoy fold the laundry with her, but at times we'll put on something to watch together. And as soon as you have that, you're no longer paying attention to the other person. You're paying attention to the screen, and you're actually not having what you're talking about, I think. Yes. And now that you're saying that, I'm like, ah, my wife will laugh at me. I'm like, okay, we're going to fold laundry, but nothing on. It's just me and you, baby, and she'll be like, uh-huh, okay, we'll see how this goes.

Yeah, good idea. You know, it's funny. You watch something. This will happen to it. This is the, in my opinion, this is some of the funnest nights I've had over the last, like, I don't know, we've been together 16 years, actually. That's good. That number kind of, I didn't think it'd have been that long, you know. And some of the best nights come off of watching something.

And then you pause the TV because it spurs on a conversation. And then you talk for two and a half hours. And all you need is something to talk about. And then everything just falls away. And so in one breath, I completely get the dancing. I completely get it all. And another, I'm like, it feels like it's really hard to do. But once again, what you're pointing out is a date routine

and then removing the distractions. And the distractions are a lot in today's world. Yeah, that's for sure. Do you, when it comes to dancing, I believe I've heard he has hours upon hours of playlist. Do you get any saying that? Do you care? Well, I curate the playlist. So if a song comes up that I don't like, it's deleted.

That's good. I like that. Okay. So he's filling it up and you're like listening to Jordan, this sucks. Yeah. It was the same with our artistic. So we would buy paintings. We would buy paintings.

He would look up paintings, and he would have, say, 35 paintings that he thought were good. And then he'd print them out, low resolution. He'd print them out and we'd lay him on the floor. And I'd go through them and say no to the ones that I didn't think were good until we got to a few that he could purchase. So I've always been the person who is limiting the enormous amount of information that's coming in. So I'll cut it all back to what I think is the best.

So when you're dancing, what's your like, this is the song. What is it or genre of music? What is it that you enjoy dancing too? Well, when we dance, we usually dance to music that was from the 20s to the 70s, really. So lots of different music. Yeah, we have, you know, we like Billy Holiday. Billy Holiday is good to listen to. You know, did you ever watch The Jungle Book when you were a kid?

Have your kids watched The Jungle Book? Yes. So the guy who's singing in that, his name is Louis Prima. And, you know, who's the king of the jungle? That's Louis Prima. And so we listen to Louis Prima. He's great. He's the King Louis.

King Louis in the Jungle Book. Yeah. Yeah. So it's his voice. And he's just, I don't know, he's quite a master. He's quite a master. We have all kinds of music. And then, you know, we'll be dancing away and I'll think, this song, you know, it's repetitive or it's kind of whiny.

He'll get rid of it. So we have a great playlist and we both like all the music. And that's important that there isn't anything in it because it'll kill the feeling, you know, if you get a song that's snively and whiny and. and then I'm rolling my eyes at it. Like that's not conducive to a good date. Yeah, because you want both sides to be in the right mind frame, right? Yeah, exactly. You know, I think of Tony Dungy.

I'm going to look this up. I'm sure it's Tony Dungy. He talks about, you know, you don't rise to the occasion. You fall back on the level of preparedness. When you look at like making the agreement, all right, date routine. We're going to start. spending time with each other, three nights a week, whatever that extrapolates in hours, and then you extrapolate that over, you know, that's 156 days roughly a year,

and then you just, and you do the, you do the math on that. Every marriage goes through rough water. Now, I don't know how to describe the rough water of what you and Jordan have gone through, because, you know, like you've been on tour for seven years and, you know, the storm is kind of, interviewed Judy Reeves once upon a time Tammy and the reason I bring it up is she survived the perfect storm back in 1992 and she was on a on a Chinese fishing vessel in the hundred foot waves with no steering and a tugboat came out and got them and pulled her off right or and pulled them all out and you know the story about the Andrea Gale being sunk and that became a movie and

everything else when I when I look but maybe I maybe I shouldn't just point out to you to because like other people will have you know issues that will feel like 100 foot waves as well and and I guess in general my question is like by doing what you've done and agreed to over the course of your lifetime has that made it has that allowed you to survive and maybe even grow in the in the like the worst times like the rough rough moments because I think if memory serves me clear before you guys danced on stage at rogers place one of you two said something along lines you know what happened It hasn't always been easy.

Like it just hasn't been easy. But when I see how much effort and energy that would go into three nights a week and just spending time and conversating and everything else, you know Jordan very, very, well, and still do, very, very well. But the rough waters come regardless. How much did that help? So, yeah, so we, like I said, we started our dates when we were first married and we've been married now for, I don't know, nearly 35 years, so a long, long time. And the rough waters

came, you know, not that long ago. It's 23, and that was 2019, so four years ago. And then, of course, there was nothing. There was nothing because we were taken, both of us were taken away by the medical system to be dealt with. So there was no relationship. relationship at that time. And so it was about three years long that we were separated. And so it was a long enough time that when we came back together, we didn't know whether what we had could survive or not. Because I had changed a lot.

I was much better than I was, but I wasn't the same person anymore. And Jordan was still very sick. So he just hadn't recovered very much. But there we were at home. We were at home together all of a sudden. After three years of being apart. And there we were, just him and I. And we thought, well, now what do we do?

Because here we are. And we thought, well, what did we do? Well, we used to have dates. That's what we did. oh okay well we know how to do that because we had a routine we could try that neither of us really saw that there was going to be an outcome that would put everything back on track or something you know like we had no idea what making that effort would do but it seemed well it seemed like the next thing because at least we knew how to do that and so we did the little things that we did you know

had to shower put something nice on tidied the room put on some music and uh we have an upstairs we have a third floor where we have uh it's all wooden up there so we have quite a modern house semi-detached house in toronto and then we put a third story on and it's made a of wood. The floor is made from the hockey rink where Wayne Gretzky skated in Ontario. So that's the floor. The walls inside are made from Jordan's great-grandfather's barn. So those are there. And then we have, because we are part of a indigenous family on the West Coast. He's a carver and a dancer, and he carved a bunch of totem poles and masks,

and those are all up there. So there's only his only indigenous artists up there. And so we go up there and we have, we have music up there. So that's, we go up there and dance. And so we met up there and we danced. And we thought, huh, well, that survived whatever that was that dancing it survived because we could go do that and it was such a relief

to have something that we still shared between us when everything else seemed trivial and because we had been through so much nothing nothing seemed significant anymore but something that we had done It's like the routine of just having everyone sit down to dinner every day. That routine, people don't think of it as very important, but when everything else is gone and you come together and you see one another, you don't know what to say or what to do. The things that you'll say and do are the things that you practiced. And so maybe you can sit down to dinner and you can have a glass of wine together.

and then you think, oh yeah, I remember this. Or maybe you can dance together and you can think, oh yeah, I remember you. And this is you. Here you are. I thought you were gone. I thought I was gone. But here we are. Maybe we're not gone.

So it gives you a little hope to have a routine that you can come back to. And it reminds you of, oh, yeah, there was. there was a history there and maybe if we're fortunate we can squeak through and and maintain this this routine that we began years and years and years ago and we did it's um i don't know i don't know the the i i uh that's a tough story for me to hear and i i don't know if i can um articulate what my thoughts are right now, but I find that a very tough story to hear Tammy because I'm like, you know, I, I, I don't think I, I, the audience certainly knows it's funny how many people talk about. I guess I talk about my wife an awful lot on here. And, you know, I'm like, I can't imagine

a world where I'm not around her. I just, you know, certainly, certainly in saying all that, you know, like self-authoring, you can, I can paint the world. I can paint the world. I can, you know, I can world how I get there real fast it's not a fun world I don't want to go there and so I have to work the opposite way to make sure that never happens right and so in that world I never really think about the other one because I'm like this is where we're going and you're coming along and I'm gonna work very very very very hard at that and yet you know what you're talking about is like health issues and then three years go by where you've kind of been you're kind of there but you're

kind of not because you're really sick Jordan's really sick. And when you finally get back together, it's like you've forgotten who each other are. And I'm like, that is a, that's a wild and saddening thought that that can happen to the best of us, to the couples that are like as tight as tight can be,

you know, that the storm will come for all of us. And you probably should be preparing, like, immediately. And immediately doesn't, mean you run around your house and do 10 things and act like a wild man. It means like, you know, you start putting in the little, like the effort that's needed to withstand it when it comes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's right. And so I think that universally dating is a good idea for couples. I don't think that there's a reason not to do that. Because, you know, what can a date do? Well, this is the other thing, right?

So in order to maintain your household, you have to have meetings with your wife. And you have to do that pretty regularly to stay on top of just whatever happens in the house or in the family. And when you come together for a date, if you haven't had those conversations, that's when those conversations are going to happen. And so my husband used to think, because I would always bring up the things that I was thinking about. And he'd think, he told me he'd be thinking, oh, great, now she's not going to have a date with me. You know, so that was that was his worry that this thing that he'd been anticipating and looking forward to was now going to be taken up by household conversation. And maybe, maybe I was just trying to put off the date. But actually what he's come to realize is that couples have to put in a certain amount of time every week talking about household duties and stuff.

Or they won't have any date time. They won't have any intimate time. Because in order to be with each other, there can't be anything between you. And so if there's something, say, let's see what would happen, you know, something in the house wasn't working, say, you know, say the kitchen sink is dripping or something

and it's been dripping for months. And we come together for a date, the first thing I'm gonna think of is, is that plumber ever gonna come by and fix that thing? Because I'm pretty, tired of having water dripping all the time in the sink and we have to discuss this or I can't truly be honest with you that I want to be with you. That's why you have to have those meetings is because it's a prerequisite to having time with with each other. It makes complete sense to

me? As soon as you were saying, Jordan's thought, I'm like, oh, man, I've had the identical, like, oh, man. Here, now we're going to talk about the kids' schedule, and I'm going to be like, like, are we going to, can we sit and have just like a little bit of like, can we talk about, but it's interesting, you know, like, you know, it's like a computer, like leaving background programs running all the time. You know, they're taking up a little bit of energy. They just, they just are. And if you don't clear those off, You know, this is why cleaning your room is so important. This is why, you know, tidying things up is so important.

You know, last night we had friends over. And then there was, like, dishes upon dishes upon dishes. You can imagine kids and everything. And I sat and did, you know, there was part of me that went, just go lay on the couch. You're tired. You know, I could just, you know, you got sick kid and, you know, and on and on it goes. But my wife looked tired.

And so I was like, you know what? You go sit on the couch. I'm going to do the dishes and got them all done. And like, just how much better you feel was such a simple little thing as doing the dishes. It took me probably 35 minutes. I sat and listened to our conversation again from the first time. You know, like I got, it was enjoyable, actually, like 35 minutes. And then I got to go sit and she was happier for it.

And I was like, you know, you know the answer. But sometimes the answer is just putting in the work. And, you know, putting in the work, there's no shortcut on that. Like it's, you got to do it. And if you don't do it, eventually, you know, if you look down the road of whether it's a year or 10 years or wherever you get to, you can kind of write out how some of that's going to go. Yeah. Right.

So if you put something off that needs to be done, that's going to be a parent every time you walk by it, every time your wife walks by it, and that will come between you. That'll be one of the things that come between you. So you have to attend to your relationship, and that means also your house and your family. You have to attend to those things if you want to have a close relationship with each other. Yeah, you got my, I'm thinking, I'm just, I'm all over the place in my brain rate. I love talking about just like healthy relationships because I feel like, you know, case in point, went to a hockey game the other day

and ran into a buddy, divorced. And I'm like, you know, like, you know, like, so like I don't, what can I say, nothing? I'm just like, I just don't want to go out there ever. I don't want to go down that road. And, you know, when we first formed the book club, it was to be better, the idea was, and it sounds kind of corny.

But then again, somebody will say, no, actually sounds great. But it was to be better husbands and better fathers. I was a new father, one of my brother. brothers was a new father, then there was a couple that were, you know, in longer, related, were further along than us, right? And, you know, everybody was worried about, you know, how the heck do you raise a kid and how do you make sure you don't get divorced? Because I feel like every, you know, the movies I love are the movies where it plays out like the way I think it should, you know, like the man's not a douchebag. And he actually like, likes the woman he's with.

And, you know, and they, they have a happy life. And there is. troubles and tribulations and there is arguments and there is all of it but at the end they're still you know holding hands and you know or dancing on stage as I watch you and Jordan and yet lots of Hollywood isn't that like it's it's you know the divorce and all these different things and I'm just like man one of the things I hope to teach my children is how important picking your spouse is because I I firmly believe you know like the hand of God put the finger on the scale for me because I

I don't know what the heck I was doing when I ran into Mel, right? It wasn't, but I mean, what a great thing and a great story that I get to romanticize now as my kids get older. And I hope I can just impart some of that wisdom on them. You know, when you look at your children, Tammy, have you, how did you try and impart that wisdom on them other than showing them? Well, I think it is showing them. I think that, I think that, you know, my, my sister-in-law, my brother's wife said that when she chose her husband, she had written a list of what she wanted, and she wanted somebody like her dad. And so, and she found my brother, and he fulfilled some of those, enough of, enough of those items on her list that she thought that he was a good catch. So I think it would be helpful for kids to realize who they look up to, who they look up to and to imagine that they're looking for. If they're looking up to someone, there's a reason that they look up to them and to maybe specify what it is that they look up to them for.

and to realize that when you're going to choose a partner, that you're going to look for some of those attributes in that person, so that you're choosing someone that you want rather than a quick desire taking precedent over what's more meaningful. So I think for Jordan and I, when I chose George, he was always pretty I could I could depend on him you know that he came if when I went home for Christmas I would be home 15 minutes I could look at my watch and he'd come and knock on my door so he knew I was home so he paid attention that we weren't even we weren't even dating we were just

friends and we weren't in touch about whether I was coming home or not but when I got home he would come to the door. So he was paying attention. I thought that was very interesting. And I noticed, you know, I noticed, I noticed the small things that he did. And I kept them in my mind about, was he dependable? Could I rely on him? Was he fun? Could I listen to him? Did he have anything to say that was meaningful to me? So I had the, I had, I guess in my mind, I kind of had a checklist of who I was going to choose. Did my parents look up to him? They did. My siblings seemed to think he was all right. So that was good. You know, so it wasn't just me who was, it wasn't just me who was making this decision. It was the people I loved. I wanted them also to weigh in on whether they thought

who I was going to marry was a good choice. So when Jordan and I, when our kids were growing up, I think that because Jordan and I tried to tell the truth with one another and we did the same with our children, even though they may have not liked the Sunday afternoon meetings we had where we decided who was going to throw out the trash and who was going to clean the toilets that week. They didn't like those meetings that we had on Sunday afternoons. But I'll tell you when they went to university, they sat down with their roommates. on Sundays and decided who was going to throw out the trash and who was going to clean the toilet that week. So I think that as they became older, they started to use the lessons that we taught them, even though they may have fought against them as it doesn't matter if your kids fight against

what it is you're trying to teach them. It matters whether you continue to teach them. And so we had those meetings whether the kids complained or not on Sundays. and turned out that in some way it was very, very helpful. So I think the things that you do with your children regularly, those routines that you, and I can't talk about going to church because we never took our kids to church. But I would do that now.

But I'm a grandmother, and I think grandmothers get to do those kind of things. We get to decide if we're going to teach our kids' prayers and things like that. I'm excited about that. I think that that's really important. Yeah, I think there's a learning stage. You know, I just got to have a conversation with my mom.

Geez, I don't know, was it a month ago? About the Bible that I don't think I would have been ready for any other day of the year prior in my life. And, you know, when it comes to your parents and some of the things they find important, I just, sometimes you're just not ready to hear it. And you don't care. You don't care why they do. I don't care. And then you get older and you go, oh, right?

Like, it's just so, like, blatantly obvious. You're like, oh, man. Like, I probably, I probably have, like, 80 apologies to make at some point, right? Like, because you're just a kid. And we all go through it. And so by showing them and then just obvious. You're right. You're like really right in the sense that like if you do it once and never do it again,

they obviously don't think, you don't think it's that important. But if you do it time in day after day and you talk about like getting around the supper table for, you know, and having everybody there, you know, one of the things we've changed in our household is we say a prayer before supper now, never used to do that, you know. And you can see how that changes things. Just slowly, right? Because if you only do it one day, then nobody, you know, and everyone's like, well, why do we do it the one day and they forget about it?

Or hats off at the table, you know, like a little simple things. And then you have respect for the table. And all of a sudden the table becomes a place of where people gather and sit properly and have some conversation and some laughs. I think the, you know, when I got four older siblings and when we look back at our childhood, the supper table was a wild place, Tammy. You know, of just fun little games, just fun little things happening where I'm sure mom and dad were just like these kids, but us kids look back at that as like the best time

ever. And it was every night. Every night we got together and we sat at the supper table and we ate and we had, you know, and it was this routine. And, you know, the problem with the word routine in one breath is it almost has like a negative connotation associated with, oh, we don't need a routine to do something like that. But actually it's a really important word because it's showing what you're putting importance on in your life and the things that you deem high have a really good chance of success and that's what you know that's as a parent that's what I'm looking for for my children long term how do I get them to navigate the rough waters that are going to come for them in the right way and one of them is finding the right spouse while you put energy to what into what you believe is

important and they will notice fair oh yeah I think so yeah I think you know I think that both my kids, the people that they chose to be with, they chose, I think they chose wisely. And we'll see, you know, because life takes its turns and we'll see how resilient their relationships are because the storms come and then you find out. But I would say that they both seem dedicated and their spouses seem dedicated. And that's number one. isn't it that you've decided that this is you know when i'm married jordan i decided that i was going to stay no matter what and so when all of this trouble hit there wasn't any thoughts of uh not being a part of it in fact i thought if i didn't go along on tour i we wouldn't be married anymore because he was

going to be gone all the time and so it was i was either going to take part in it or our relationship was going to be over. And so that's why I went on tour in the beginning was to maintain our marriage. What's funny, I, uh,

it's, I've, I've repeated this, uh, on and off, not on and off. I've repeated this over and over again. Since I started the podcast, you know,

if it ever, if it ever decided to go, um, I don't know, ballistic, if, if you would, uh,

if I lost it, my family, it would be the end of the podcast because I want them to come along and we're actively working on ways to bring the family along with the podcast when it travels around and interviews some different people that come to

Alberta, Saskatchew, my wife's from Minnesota so we go down there and you know and it's a lot of fun having them along for the ride and being around them. I mean, there are some of my favorite people as you can imagine I'm sure you have similar thoughts on your family and what a, what a

I don't know, almost a blessing that you can go around, like you both know the importance of it and it's successful and you can go around. And now, like, the fact that you two could be on stage and it be, for me, and when I watched Jordan the first time

to when I watched them, have you on stage at the end, it was the same, like, that's what's needed. Like, right there, that is something. And we don't see that anywhere. We don't, I don't see too much of that. And it's really healthy.

And in today's society, we really need some healthy, role models and some healthy things being played out in front of us because there's so much of the opposite. Yeah, that's very interesting. Because that's not why we did it. We did it because, well, he didn't have anyone to introduce him and ask me if I would introduce them. You did that a necessity. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But it wasn't very long. We, Jordan, because Jordan, he takes pictures with people after the lectures over and shakes their hands. And, They would tell him that they really enjoyed when I went up on stage with him.

And he said, oh, he said, hmm, there's something about you being up there with me that is resonating with the listeners. And we didn't know that that would be the case at all. It's been really interesting to see you say, oh, so they wanted a married couple. They want to see what that is again. It's just so authentic, like, or genuine, or any of the. those words because you know like one of the things I've I don't I think appreciated about Jordan over the the course of you know listening to his lectures and falling him along is he he wears his emotions on his sleeve like he's a very emotional guy and even when you two get together

and are talking there's still like you can just see it you just it's so easy to see um and it's wonderful like it's it's like this is this is cool you know I I I brought my wife to watch the first time she never she listens to nothing of of Jordan right and and has no time to to do it and whatever else and I brought her with because I'm like you know what let's go on a date night me and you will go sit and watch Jordan Peterson and then and then I had no idea you were a part of it and of course and you know I'm like man this is this is something and my wife's going oh yeah here's Sean another idea is going to be having me dance every third night and I was like I don't know I'd feel really like we love dancing but I'm like I'd feel really awkward

getting up in the I don't know why. There's nobody watching. It just seems so intimate. And you guys made it feel so natural. That's good. That's good. Because it is. It's natural.

And you know, not every woman, but pretty much every woman loves to dance. And I don't need to go to a nightclub or anything to dance. I can dance at home. Well, it's funny. I don't think I look at Lloyd Minster and we don't have a nightclub anymore anyway. There's nowhere to go dancing.

You know, when we got married, we took dancing lessons with like four of our, four different couples came along with us. I think there was 10 of us. And once a week we go do dance lessons. It was a ton of fun. Like I, you know, so much of fun these days, Tammy,

and maybe this is just where I'm at. I always thought fun was initiated by alcohol. Right? Like you needed to have fun. In order to have fun, alcohol had to be present. And yet when I look at all the fun I have in life, probably the dancing lessons, we weren't drinking. You know, I play this, I play noon hour hockey still. There's no drinking. And there's lots of these where it's like, it's, what a crazy thought to have been put in my brain at some age where I'm like, in order to have fun, you need to have alcohol there. Because you really don't. Like, it's no different what you just say. You don't need to go to the, the club to have to go dance and it's probably just a mental hurdle i need to get over of just toss on some music and see how see how it goes for 10 minutes instead of three hours it could be 10

minutes and then and then sit down and go well what did you think of that yeah right well and and paying attention to your list of of music what's on the music and sharing that with your wife and getting her interested in just the music that you're going to play when you're going to be dancing. And she can veto whatever song she doesn't like so that she likes the whole music, the whole track. And so then when she's up there dancing, there isn't anything that she's just going to want to sit out on.

So that's a good idea. Did you guys have any mentors? That you like, yeah, mentors. Well, you know, Jordan really liked his, his PhD advisor at McGill. They're still in the business together. Dr. Robert Peel. He was George's PhD advisor and then became his business partner. So I would say that he really liked Bob. Bob was a very he was very gentle. He was very gentle in his approach, but He was also very generous and he wanted his students to publish.

And so everyone who came out of his lab always had the most published papers. So he taught Jordan to get the work done and to put the papers out. To get the work done and put the papers out. Because if you're going to get a job as a professor, you need to have a publishing record when you finish your PhD so he was very good at that and so Jordan took that into his work and made that happen in his own lab that the kids were taught to get the studies done to write them up and to publish them and that that was their that was their job while they were there because they were going to be done their PhD and what they had to show for it had to be published papers and so that that would

have been a mentor of Jordans of me. Well, I liked my, my grandmother was really something. She was my dad's mother. She was a very, she was a say-at-home mother and she played the piano. She played the piano until she was in her 90s at the church. She traveled with a band in in Alberta in her 80s and 90s. In their 80s and 90s, she was traveling with a band. Yeah, yeah, a senior's band. They'd go from like seniors home to seniors home and put on shows. I liked her a lot.

When she died and we all went to her funeral, all her grandkids thought that they were her favorite. So she was able to just love everyone. There was enough love for everyone. And I liked that about her. I thought that was really smart. I always liked to go visit her. There was never any hesitation in my mind that showing up there any time would cause any trouble. You know, I just, she was great.

And so I would say that that was my mentor. And my dad, he was quite a bit like my mom. he was pretty easy to get along with. He, I think he gave me what I needed to get up on stage with Jordan because he was always fearless. My dad was pretty fearless. So he taught us to be fearless. He taught us to be independent and to,

to follow our interests. and to make things happen, you know, so he didn't want us sitting around and moping about not having a life. He said, you know, take action, make your life happen. And so I think that that was, so I look up to, I really look up to them both. That's, I appreciate you sharing. I appreciate you coming on, Tammy. My pleasure. If it's all right with you, I'd like to hold you for five more minutes.

We're just going to switch over to Substack and hope a few people will come see the end of our conversation there. So if people are wondering where the last part goes, it goes over to Substack and we hope you'll join us there.