Shaun Newman Podcast - #636 - Military Roundtable #3

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

Willy MacDonald - Served 25 years, retired Master Warrant Officer and did 6 tours overseas. John Hamilton - Served 17 years, retired Major, and did 3 tours overseas. Ian Green - Served 5 years, retired Master Corporal, and currently Boeing Captain for 25+ years. Let me know what you think. Text me 587-217-8500 Substack:⁠https://open.substack.com/pub/shaunnewmanpodcast⁠ E-transfer here: [e-mail] Website: ⁠https://silvergoldbull.ca/⁠ Email: [e-mail] Text: [phone] – and be sure to let them know you’re an SNP listener.

This is Brad 14. This is Doug Casey. This is Tom Romago. This is Alex Craneer. This is Viva Fry. You're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks. Happy Monday.

How's everybody doing today? I want to say, first and foremost, happy belated Mother's Day to all you mothers out there. Yeah, without you, we aren't, we're not here. Who are we kidding? So happy belated Mother's Day to all the wonderful moms out there. I certainly have a wonderful mom, and I'm married to a white.

who is a wonderful mom to my beautiful kids. So there you go. Happy belated Mother's Day to start off a Monday. Man, I've had quite the weekend. You're going to hear, we've got several interviews coming up over the next probably week and a half from this past weekend. Today is going to be one of them before we get there. I just want to wish Jamie Sinclair, 34 years in the Canadian military, his retirement.

So congratulations, Jamie on a wonderful career. and he got some excellent friends around him, comrades, teammates, members. I don't know what to call it. Anyways, super cool to be invited down to Regina and then to go get experience all that. So shout out to Jamie Sinclair on his retirement. Now, before we get to today's episode, how will we start here? Government deficits running out of control. Yes.

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You can text or email Graham for details down in the show notes. If you just want to go check them all out, go to silvergoldbill.ca here in Canada, silvergoldbill.com in the United States. Yes, they can ship to you anywhere you're listening from either one of these great countries. Silver Gold Bull. Cal Rock, your trusted partner in surplus oil field equipment, their leading supplier of new used and reconditioned oil field production equipment here in Canada. But that's not all.

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Okay, let's get on to the tale of the tape, shall we? The first spent 17 years in the Canadian military, retired as a major, three tours overseas, the second 25 years, retired as a master warrant officer with six tours overseas, and the third five years retired as a master corporal and has spent the last 25 years as a commercial airline pilot. I'm talking about John Hamilton, Willie MacDonald, and Ian Green. So buckle up, here we go. Welcome to John Neum of podcast. I got Ian Green, Willie McDonald and John Hamilton in the United. the Hotel Saskatchewan sitting here for a different type of version of a military roundtable.

So, boys, thanks for making some time today. Thanks, Sean. Thank you, Sean. Good to see you, buddy. Thanks for having us. Now, before we get too far into it, this is something, you know, I'm here because we're all here because of Jamie Sinclair, his retirement. And he's never experienced this. So this is the part, normally I do this in studio, but since you boys are doing, I've got it on the road, you get one of these for hopping on.

Oh, boy. Thank you. This is new to the podcast. So Silver Gold Bowl is a supporter of the show, and anytime we do anything in person, everybody gets a one ounce silver coin. So there you go. Thank you very much for that, Sean.

That's lovely. Don't cry. Going up in value daily. It is going up in value daily. Really, there's not chocolate inside. Do not try to peel it. Do any of you boys collect silver? Oh, yeah.

Who doesn't? I'm a huge collector of silver. Silver is the new gold. Yeah. You say that, but there's a ton of people that hop on the podcast that have never held a one-ounce coin in their hand before or whatever. It's actually the wedding gift that I'm giving to my daughter and son-in-law now because it's something that when you're young, you wouldn't necessarily take the time or resources to buy, but it's something that one of the greatest gifts that you can give for the impending apocalypse if you think that way. Yeah, you're going to make John cry.

I'm not comfortable talking about that. No, actually, that's a great, you know, I got a nephew who's graduating from high school. And you might actually be giving me a great idea. Maybe we should be giving them some silver or gold or whatever, right? And because it sort of makes you think, like, why the heck would, I thought about tipping the lady with a silver coin when I first came out, because it's all I had on me.

I'm like, do I give her a silver coin? I'm like, that seems a little excessive. I don't know. But then I'm like, I wonder if she even understand what the heck I'm doing. Now, Ian and John have never been on. Willie has for the person listening, I just want to do this briefly. Or you guys can go as long as you want. But just so the listener can get used to your voice and know who you are.

Ian, you've never been on. I just start with you, and then we'll go to John and Willie, you can chime in. But just a little bit of your background so people can know who the heck they're listening to. It can be your time served in the military. It can be your career now. You can be wherever you want, just so people know who you are. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Sean.

The reason I'm in company of these fine gentlemen is that Willie and I first met over 30 years ago. We were both reservists in Saskatchewan here, and we spent various time doing that. We did our leadership courses together, a couple other things, and ended up a majority of my time served. ended up being with the patricians, which really was part of already. And after about five years, I got tired of that, moved on, became eventually a pilot, and now I'm an airline pilot with a major Canadian airline. So it's about it for me. John?

Yeah. Well, I'm now retired from the military, but I joined back in 2000. join, I guess, what essentially was a Blueberry Army at the time. First day of entry officer training in Gage Town was September 11, 2001. And that kind of defined my whole career, Afghanistan there, but spent 17 years. In the military, Consular Spatoon Commander, Charlie Company Commander, some other good positions. that. Yeah and now I'm living in Kingston happily married to my wife Hayley and with my three kids Joseph Oscar and Constance and yeah life is good.

Now I just try to to do things to keep me occupied. I don't like to sit around so you know do renovations look after some property and yeah, that's kind of what I do now. Okay, well, that was the stuffy part of the podcast. From now on, it doesn't come back to me. Willie, I'm going to let you chime in, too. But from now on, you boys take this where you want, because you guys haven't, I don't know,

when was the last time the three of you were sitting in a room together and then to sit and get to, you know, talk about wherever you guys want to lead it, because the one thing I try and do on the military roundtable is let you guys do the leading. Because it doesn't have to come back to me. I'm just kind of the guy sitting here and joining your company, although I would love some thoughts on, you know, wherever you want to take it.

The world is a strange place today, certainly stranger than when you first joined the military. We're all over it, Sean. We'll take care of you, buddy. Yeah. Ian and John were really fucking boring in their intros. And, you know, it's their humility coming through. And, you know, for your listeners, you know,

some of you may remember me. I'm a retired military member as well. the last time the three of us were together was probably my wedding, which was 10 years ago on May 31st. But I think actually that party was in June or July. And we had it out at Jamie's place at the farm, a big quonset wedding. But that's the last time the three of us were together. And, you know, Ian and I, you know, he kind of understated the development of our friendship. We did a number of courses together, like tough courses, where we were. you know really being pushed to our limits and and we became very good friends

very quickly and we've maintained that friendship over the years even after Ian left the military and pursued you know a career being a commercial pilot we've stayed very tight Ian lives in Cochran now he's a good Saskatchewan boy from Langham and I think we probably went about six or seven years without seeing each other, like at all. And when I moved to Calgary four years ago, called Greener, said, hey, man, I'm coming into town. We should spend some time together. And now it's just been kind of nonstop.

You know, I'm like, hey, send me your flight schedule so that I know when you're going to be in town so we can hook up and get the families together and have some fun. And John, of course, John and I, geez, you know, we got a lot. long history as well. You know, John finished his infantry officer training and got posted the first battalion and as a young platoon commander. And I didn't have a lot of dealings with them until we both ended up in reconnaissance platoon. We did our advanced recourse together. And, you know, one night in particular that I remember John and I were sitting behind the ground radar observing our arcs and it was freezing cold and we hadn't slept in days. And, you know, these guys were supposed to come replace

as RCRs, of course. And they weren't coming. And John and I were taking turns sleeping. It was a mess. Anyway, it's those kinds of times in the military that, A, it builds character and B, it builds friendships. And so John and I did advance recoupie together. And then when we went to Afghanistan in 2006,

he was the reconnaissance platoon commander. I was his right-hand man. And then, you know, fast forward. shit, six, five, six years, we went back to Afghanistan, and this time John was a company commander, I was his company, Sard Major. So, you know, we were fortunate to stay in that stream of, you know, conducting operations together overseas and really being able to build a team the way that John and I wanted to build the team. And, you know, we arguably had, you know, the tightest group of guys, 140 guys or whatever the size of the company was.

when we were in Afghanistan the second time in the reconnaissance platoon, there was 24 of us. So, you know, we'll talk a little bit about Afghanistan, but when you think about a force multiplier in the Canadian Armed Forces, you think of organizations like reconnaissance platoon, and even though there was only 24 of us, we had, you know, I was a joint terminal attack controller, we had Mars was a J-TAC, you know, we had guys that were mountain operations instructors, we knew how to call in, indirect fire, direct fire. So with 24 people in the battle space, considering the size of the battle space at the time, whenever the commander needed somebody to fill a gap and be able to do that with fewer people,

but with a bigger impact, you know, Racky Patoon got the call. And so, you know, I would say it was, it was, you know, hands down the best. time I ever had the military would you guys would you guys curious you know as you're talking I'm like you know everybody stares at like tough times you know and go oh I don't want to go there I don't want to go there but like one of the things you know when I'm listening to talk is like military puts you in tough times right like it's it's forced and one of the things that comes out of tough times is you learn what other men are capable of and that's what the bond I see here today is right you all went to tough times and and relied on one another

and maybe that's one of the blessings of where we're heading as a society is we're going into tough times. I don't think there's any argument of it, but we all stare at all the bad things that are going to come out of it instead of some of the good things. And the good things are you're going to learn what your neighbors are made out of and who you can trust and build lifelong friendships that can't be broken very easily.

That's what the government, in my opinion, is doing to us. I'm just curious, you know, as military guys, is that what you got and see and maybe possibly coming out of bad times. You're hitting on something that I think about quite a bit, actually, Sean, is the, how grateful I am that we're actually experiencing a little bit of hard times right now on a societal level. I think it's a good deal because people are starting to have to reflect a little bit more on what they're made of. And they get to assess what the people that are close to them are made of too. And I think that as fucked up as it seems right now,

if I'm allowed to talk like that. You are. It's actually a very good thing because it's testing some relationships, but more importantly, it's strengthening them right now. And I think it's good. And as long as there's a couple folks in the crowd that keep calling attention to the things that we might find egregious right now, then it's good.

And we just got to keep calling it out and trying to formulate how you're going to work yourself through it. So I look at it, you know, it's just people either thrive in K. or they fumble and a little bit of chaos is good to figure out whether or not you're going to do well or not. And I can just add on on that, I think, going through tough times and coming out the other end of it, you know, that's what defines us as human beings. Our ability to adapt to a situation that is horrible that you don't really, a lot of time don't choose to be in. You know, you get knocked around, you get knocked down, you get back up, and it's a getting back up that does define us. And quite frankly, I don't, the society has a tendency right now to embrace the victim mentality.

It's a lot easier to be a victim and blame other people for things instead of accepting personal responsibility ability, uh, fighting through these things, learning some things along the way and coming out the other end of it with a hard, harder skin, tough skin. Um, I really don't, you know, anybody. who hasn't gone through something difficult. And maybe they didn't have to knock it out of the park 100%. Maybe they did fail. But they got through the other side of it and they learned something. Those are the type of people that I embrace because they've gone through it.

If you sit there and call yourself a victim all the time, you know, you're a person without substance. You're not a person of consequence. And it's hard to be around. Yeah. Yeah. It is. Oh my God. Yeah.

It's tiring. You know, and it's, yeah, we, all of us have been through. incredible difficult circumstances in our former careers and personal lives. And guess what? It ain't over yet. You know, there's still stuff down the road that we're unaware of that we're going to have to get through. Or maybe our kids are going to have to get through. But we built that tough skin.

And hopefully we've passed that on to our own kids like, hey, man, I'm living proof. You can get through stuff. It's okay. We're here to help you through it. But you're going to go through it. There's no avoiding it. And don't try to avoid it. you got to get through it and learn from it and develop that resiliency.

You know, I'll build a little bit on what John said in terms of context, but context only. And the reason I say that is in 2006 in Afghanistan, you know, John was arguably the first guy since the Korean War to lead a conventional platoon attack on an entrenched enemy. And at the time, you know, John and I didn't know. that we were basically going up against a force that was, what was there, 14 of us, there was about 140,

so it were 10 times bigger than us, 10 plus times bigger than us. You know, the official numbers were never really published, but it was somewhere between 150 and 300. But just so I'm clear, you're 14 guys going against 140. Yeah. Doesn't that seem, I don't know. Here's a civilian going, doesn't that seem a bit silly? Yeah, here's the good news.

We didn't know the size of the enemy force. So we were like, okay, we're going to wrap this up and go have lunch under a tree somewhere. Unfortunately, it didn't work out that way. But, you know, I'm telling you this because, you know, John ended up getting injured and he had to get medevacred off the battlefield. And the, that was the easy part, you know, in my mind. And John, you can chime in. The hard part was, you know, John goes back to Canada Airfield, or actually he got, he got,

to Medevac to the hospital in Helmand, the Brit Hospital. So he went there, then he came back to Kandahar, and then within a number of days, you know, he's going through Germany and then being repatriated back to Canada, and I don't see him again until the day I get home. And so we went through decompression, and we did all these different things. John didn't get to be a part of that. And then, you know, let's add insult to injury, right?

No pun intended, he gets posted to Gagetown. So he ends up in Gagetown. Nobody knows how to deal with a soldier that's been injured in Afghanistan from the medical perspective. Forgive me Gagetown. It's in New Brons. It's a big base in New Brunswick. Okay. On the East Coast.

East Coast. Thousands of miles away from the guys that I just went through, you know, incredibly arduous times with. and sorry, will I, did I cut you off? No, no, go ahead. And my apologies, I just, I don't know where Gagetown is. No, no, I mean, I'm kind of putting words in his mouth anyway, so it's probably, it's probably better if you hear it from him. And I'll fill it in.

And look, again, I'll go back to not embracing that victim mentality. I'll never sit here and say, poor me for anything I've ever gone through. It's just not who I am. It's not who I want my kids to be. But it was tough. Like, I didn't say, see the guys that I fought with until we went back for certain reunions here and there and stuff.

Ended up in Gagetown and actually my file I had to have basically a professional nurse clean my foot out each day, the Shroutman wounds. And I was told everything's going to be taken care of. It'll be seamless transition to Gage Town. I get there and I walk into the MRI and, or excuse me, MIR. MIR. MIR. Thank you.

Medical inspection. There you go. The base hospital. Let's just use that. Yeah. And they're like, who are you? We're not really prepared for you. So while I was waiting to get into my house,

I had to clean my own wounds in the whole hotel room, and I had to go get stuff from the pharmacy to do that, right? And I don't, look, we weren't prepared as a country for that type of thing. And that was evident in the news stories that were happening while we were over there. People were like, well, what do you mean we're fighting? aren't we keeping peace? What do you mean Canadian soldiers or killing them Taliban?

What do you mean they're taking prisoners? I remember the prisoners we took, 25 of them was debated in the House of Commons. What's going on over there? And our military support system wasn't prepared for it either there. So it was a large learning curve. Instead of taking that as like, poor me,

I went and actually gave presentations. Like this is what you need to expect. for subsequent tours because we're not, you know, we're not, we're not prepared for. We're not done this. These are things we need to get better at there. And the medical people, they embraced it and bloody, you know, they rose to the challenge. And, you know, shortly thereafter, guys are getting great medical attention there. The way we post a guy.

There's no reason I should have got a posting message overseas in the middle of a war. That, you know, when you get back. you're going to Gagetown. I get it. You want to get the combat expertise in the schools. Makes 100% sense on paper. But there's humans attached to that. And a sense of isolation and loneliness I felt. That was hard. And you know what? I did not handle that well. I certainly walked down the path of self-destruction. You know, and It was a hell of a fucking hole to get to get out of it. I'm out of it.

My life is 10 times better now than it used to be. But not having, I would say that was the catalyst of that was just, you know, being completely ripped from the guys that, you know, I bled with that I loved the men I had the absolute privilege to lead. And that was gone. and I found myself surrounded by people who didn't get the importance of that. I'm sure I understood it myself until much later there. So if you guys were the top military brass today, right?

They walk in this room and go, okay, we're sending guys over to Afghanistan. Like, let's just take a time machine and go back. You, not you, but let's say somebody like John gets injured, what would you do differently? Like if you could fix the, I don't know if it's fix the city. Go ahead, Greener. I just want to make a really quick comment. Sure.

It did change. It did change. Andrew Leslie was the Army commander at the time, and he got the message. And he said, you know what? Upon redeploying from an overseas mission, nobody is allowed to be posted for 12 months. So it changed for the better, but it took time. Oh, okay, I get what you're saying. When you say it posted, you were coming back from an overseas.

saying and being posted immediately. So I got my posting matches in July while I was in the middle of like combat operations. And it was like you're going to be posted October 1st to to Gagetown. And it's like, okay, and I remember asking Colonel Hope at the time was like, what happened? You know, everybody's getting posting matches here.

What happens if they're injured, not knowing what the future was going to be for me, right? As far as, you know, I asked the quack, quick question that actually ended up, you know, happening to me, right? Injured. And, you know, and, you know, like everybody, you got your orders and you went through with it. And what Willie's saying, and that's, I'm going to go back to this, we really fucked it up at the beginning.

But by God, they, I give the military credit, the Army credit for listening to guys saying, hey, this doesn't work. There's a huge human cost of this. And you need to be aware of it. And they were actually pretty quick to change, you know. much to General that last week's had it there. He did hear us. You know, and that's a good thing. And if it's something,

Willie and I have talked about this, John, and you and I haven't had a chance to talk about this, but we've all lost too many of our colleagues by their own hands as a result of that exact thing. And I think, you know, I've considered this quite a bit as it stems back from the previous real wartime experience is going back. to Korea, you know, is that they were drafted or conscripted from the same town.

They'd go and have their experience and they came back. At least they were amongst some peers that do that. And this idea of sending guys away, every one of our friends that took their own life was they were isolated at the time. They weren't with our colleagues. And it was one of the major things. I don't know if 12 months was enough, quite honestly, but it's a start. Well, I mean, it happened to me too.

I mean, we've talked about this, I think, on the last time I was on, Sean. And I got a posting message same time John did. Middle of July, we're in the thick of fighting. I think John and I collectively, over about a 43 to 45-day period, we were in a gunfight every single day outside the wire, fighting bad guys, you know, doing the business. And we loved it. And then to have, you know, to have that stop, you know, it's like,

Okay, you're going home now, so it's stopped. Oh, and by the way, John, you're going to Gagetown, Willie, you're going to Wainwright. And the whole organization is just ripped apart. And I had this exact same thing. I wasn't married at the time. I got back. I was on leave. I got a call from the movements people saying, hey, you know, we haven't organized movers and you're posted.

And I said, no, no, I talked to the RSM, and I got my date pushed. And they're like, well, no one sent us the memo. So I ended up having to go back into the base to have a meeting with the movement cell. And they said, yeah, listen, you can't get a house hunting trip. You can't do this. You can't do that. I said, okay, well, just give me a room in the single living in quarters and sort out some movers, and I'll figure it out from there. So here I am in Wainwright.

I show up in Wainwright. I'm a warrant officer. The RSM there says, oh, I don't have a job for you. I need sergeants, not warrant officers. I'm like, okay, so what do I do? and he says, well, I don't know, report to B Company. So I go over to B Company and I'm like, do you have a job for me? No, no, just we need you to show up on Thursday morning at 7.30 for company, PT, physical training.

And so the rest of the time I'm sitting in this room surrounded by boxes, this room that's smaller than this hotel room, right? It's, you know, it's like 250 square feet. And I'm drinking because I got no job. And then I started, you know, driving to Edmonton, which is only two hours down the road from Wainwright, where all my friends and everybody was. And I would drive back to Wainwright on Wednesday, Thursday morning, do PT, jump in my truck, and drive back to Edmonton. You know, it feels like an epiphany to me. It probably is not that complex of a thought.

But I'm part of a book club, right? Five of us started a book club in 2018. The idea was to be better husbands, better fathers. it sounds all kind of corny, but it was a group of men... Not at all. That's what we need. A group of men drinking scotch, reading a book a month, and talking about some things. And then it's just picked up steam, so now we actually meet Friday mornings every morning for coffee. And I had this thought there probably in the last week.

The importance of a family supper, they always talk, all being around each other and the importance of a family... It's actually a health check. You get to see your kids daily and your wife daily. And then the importance of church, I would argue, among other things, is you get a community check. You get to see the families. And if you're looking out for one another, now you're getting a good check on your family. For men, who's doing the health check on it? And the book club has taught me this time and time again that we just had it.

One of the guys, one of my brothers, everybody noticed something was off because we meet every week. And you can tell they're dealing with something. And so then what do men do? Well, we just, you're all right. Everything good? We're worried about you. And to have men say that about one another and care is what you guys are talking about. It's a health check.

You guys are, you know, when you're in the combat, I don't know of another scenario on this planet that can be as difficult as that. I'm sure there's a few, but that is right up there. And then what you're saying is you're getting pulled, ripped apart from the group that's doing the health check on you, right? So who's doing the health check when you're isolated? Nobody, right? You're hitting on it exactly, Sean, is one of the primary indicators of longevity is community when people get really old. But I think it goes all the way back to especially for young men. And it's something that was understood early on in the military days is that even if you're only gone for a couple months and you come back is that your first outings with the boys because you're debriefing.

And that's that's any military protocol. Flying is the same protocol. It's all based off the military is you need to get with your colleagues. and talk about what you just went through. Even if it's for a night or two, right? But good, good military wives in my experience. I have one. I got married in the military coming up on 30 years now.

Congratulations. Is that you need the debrief, you know? And that's for your health check. Because if you're going to go take a traditional role of running the operation at home, you got to have your headspace and timing correct. And if you don't have that solid. And I, I, listen, and not pointing fingers, my first marriage was not good.

I'll take 50% responsibility for that. But I didn't have that type of partner. What I did have was Willie. Yeah. And regardless of geography, we stayed in contact and we always made an effort to see each other and help each other. And we became essentially, you know,

brother, brother's there. We are a brother. I consider my brother. He is my brother. I have a brother by blood. Doesn't even come anywhere close to what I feel for Willie. And I'm okay to say that. Maybe mama get mad at me, but, you know. The weird thing is I completely understand.

I understand what you mean. My son was diagnosed with cancer at a young age. She had a tumor of his brain. And that made my relationship. with my wife at that time worse because of the conflict behind that. If I didn't have Willie to lean on and help prop me up and help move me forward to get through this, this very horrible, horrible experience that no parent should have to go through

through, I don't know if I would have got back up. And that relationship could only be forged, that type of interaction in my mind can only be forged perfectly through what we experienced together. So when you're saying you're doing book clubs with your friends and you're chatting, because we all know guys, hey, tough guys, we sooner make fun of each other and self-deprecate ourselves and that's how we get through things. But to actually do that, men need more of that where they can just say, hey, like, you know,

I'm going through through this. And I know, I know these guys, if I talk to them, we're going to make fun to each other all the time. But if I said, hey, man, I'm actually really struggling with this. Or, you know, or I'm hurting. I can't get this thought out of my head. And I've lent on this guy to my left here really many times for that. And he gives me an asthma check and brings you back 100% serious, you know, serious there. And then once that's dealt with, we go back to cutting each other up and making fun on each other.

Well, I think that's a healthy part of any men's group, right? It's like you can still make fun of each other. Actually, what I find very profound when I think about it, we'd make fun of each other all the time. But you start to get to notice a guy's tells, right, when something isn't right. And when something is right, when you're that tight, you just get comfortable with addressing it.

Like, yeah, right. And sometimes it's marriage, sometimes it's kids, sometimes it's work, sometimes it's just something that's really bothering them. And sometimes it's, like, really simple. They just need to say it, and then you poke fun of it, right? That's a ridiculous thought. Sometimes it can be really serious. Sometimes that jab that's hilarious at the time is also a good way of opening up the conversation.

Yeah. And you're basically labeling a behavior that, you know, you're not to get all emotion about, but you're saying something that's concerning you and you do it through comedy sometimes. And it's super helpful. And just to hit on that point is that there's a lot of things that would be a disservice to talk about the full details of your day or your deployment to your loved one. Yeah. It's, you want to protect them from that.

Right. It's, they don't need to be sitting worrying about things that are going on in your day a day, but you can only do that with your colleagues. Right. And that's, I think that's why community is so critical to dudes especially. Yeah. Yeah. I could agree more.

We, uh, while Sean, you've been here with us for. It's been fun. About 12 or 15 hours. It reminds me hanging out with a bunch of hockey guys, except at the bar. last night and I'll let you finish your thought but at the bar last night night you know like I'm just like I can literally get into no trouble

like whether people realize it or not I'm surrounded by like 15 military monsters I'm like look look we've gotten into trouble so I don't know I'll warn you on that one you know and maybe that's a story for another podcast but we've certainly

been no strange strangers that sorry I cut you off there Sean you know it's it's you are amongst friends we you know and we do look after each other. This is the first time I met you today, but we're having this podcast, agreed to do it. And, you know, I now got your back.

You know what I mean? And that's another thing, important thing with men in groups. We'll pick the ones like, hey, yeah, like this guy's part of the group, and we're going to look after them. And, you know, and that's great. Well, it's funny because you look at the group dynamics, right? So you got Jamie who, you know, is just a ball of energy and a funny guy and charismatic.

And, you know, he is, he is relentless in terms of making fun of people. And we love him for it. And then he got Adam, right? And Adam, who was on one of your previous podcasts. Well, he was on with you first. Yeah. Adam's like the mother hand, right? He, he stares at us from his six foot two frame.

down his nose and judges us with every look, but we laugh our heads off. But he keeps us straight, right? And we all know whose role is what in that community, right? And we accept it. And it's no different than, you know, Ian and, you know, I'm introducing you to Ian and I say, yeah, Sean's a great guy, man.

And instantly Greener is like, okay, I like him. You got a nod. Right? Yeah. You know, he doesn't. have to spend a whole bunch of time with you to figure it out. He's going off my word, John's word, Jamie's word, whatever, right? It was very evident last night. I don't want to give the listener too much because, well, it doesn't matter. You know, we're at the bar last night. And we get into a situation where I'm like, well, things could go south really fast.

And I bring over the one, I bring over the guy because I can see it in everybody's eyes, right? I show up late. So I would say I'm, you know, I've had a couple of drinks, but I'm not maybe full. and I'm sitting there and I'm watching. I can see everybody what the scenario has its building. So I call the one guy over because he's upset. And I just tell him, I'm like, listen, these guys are here for this man's retirement. Retirement for what? Military.

And he goes, oh. And I go, and I just want you to take a look over there and realize what scenario is building here. Get your beer. Everybody's fine. Let's just move on with the night, right? And he's, it's like, I'm staring at him. I'm, I'm surrounded by pit bulls in the best possible scenario. Like I can't, when I mean trouble can come, certainly it can come.

But the type of trouble is like, I'm going to be on the winning side of it. I can see how the group dynamic was last night when you talk about like having each other's backs. I really feel that. Like as soon as I met everybody, it was like welcomed in immediately, which is super cool. And the thing is is when things got a little bit heated last night, which folks, for the listener, like we didn't, there was no punches thrown. There was nothing thrown. But you could tell that the mixture was. there. If it wanted to, it could have went there, except I'm like,

and nobody lit the match. If it doesn't get, if it does get lit, I'm on the winning side. Like, I'm looking around like, this is, this is not going to go well for these kids because they were kids. And they were just, you know, it's a bar and it's loud and on and on and on and on. But it's really cool to, I don't know, once again from my side, to be welcomed in. And, you know, I was sitting there on the drive yesterday. So I drove up from Lloyd Minster yesterday. And I was sitting on like, what a strange turn of events, you know, because Jamie Sinclair, you know, the listener has got to experience him multiple times. But he came on the podcast in the middle of COVID hysteria. And I didn't realize what one guest was going to do and what friendships it would bloom, if that makes sense.

But it's built military roundtables. I'm not going to give him credit for the idea. But without him, I wouldn't have had the idea. So where did it act? You know, chicken and the egg kind of thing, right? And so it's been really cool to be around you guys and experience your camaraderie. Yeah, it comes from all sorts of different things. Like Ian and I never were in combat together, but we did our infantry section commanders course together.

And that was 16 weeks of just never-ending torture, no sleep, you know, out in the rain. and when we're in garrison, you know, just inspection after inspection after inspection. And it got to a point where him and I were comfortable in chaos. So everybody's freaking out and losing their mind and trying to make everything perfect. And meanwhile, Greener and I are sneaking off base and going drinking and coming home and ironing smarties into each other's shirts as a joke. To cause extra chaos in ourselves. To giggling through it.

ironing smarties I ironed a smarty into into his dress uniform shirt and put it all back very nicely in his drawer for inspection the next morning and you know the instructor's like did you wipe your ass with this shirt and so you know we did practical jokes to each other and and you know we're out in the field standing in a trench you know there's eight inches of water in the bottom of the trench it's freezing cold greener and I are standing there we call the instructor over and you know we're out in the field standing there we call the instructor over and he's like, you guys want to talk to me? And we're like, yeah, um, is this course going to get hard at some point? And the guy loses like 16 weeks in, right? Like loses his mind. And, you know, that increases the torture. But Greener and I were just laughing through it. We were like, hey, man, you know, if we don't, if, if we don't let it get to us, then, you know, it's going to be fun. Let's, let's have fun. And the nice thing about that is that you get to choose. And I tell all my employees this in my business that I work in now is, hey, listen, if you're so upset and things are just not great, I got good news for you. You get to wake up every single morning

and decide whether or not to come to work. That's your right. You have that option. And the other thing is, if you do come to work, you get to decide whether or not you're going to have a good day or bad day. And that tone needs to be set right at the beginning. And, you know, John and I have been through those tough times. Ian and I have been through those tough times. And it builds character. It builds relationships. We talk about it to this day. We tell that same, we've probably told that same story, Ian and I, about 150,000 times. And every time we tell it, it's just as funny as it was the day we lived it. And there's something you learn there and it's,

it goes to every aspect of your life is that when things are apparently, like obviously shitty, like it's, it's raining, it's miserable, you know, the freezing rain is blown in your face is that a well-timed joke, you know, can change morale.

And it's incredible, hey, like just making light of a situation. We used to call it cock in the military. It's like, it's like, oh, we're going to get some cock today,

whether it be from the environment or from, from the commanders or whatever. It's coming from somewhere. When you seek an embraced cock, and I don't mean that in a gay way. I don't know where this podcast is going. I feel a comfortable way. Your life.

Your life is better. Your life is better. And there's a, I mean, we have to tell it. There's a better story about how we'd fuck with each other. Oh,

yeah. Once it's, we'd been in the field for, it might have been two weeks on hard rations. So you get naturally very constipated. And this is back before, for digital cameras, but Willie had a Polaroid. And we got back into the shacks.

It was probably two weeks, right? Yeah, it was probably two weeks. And he took the biggest dump that I have seen to date. Like, you'd swear he did jail time. It was that good. It was unbroken, too. It was unbroken. So he took a picture of it.

And it was like we were passing it around. So the instructors at the time, they'd try to give us, they had a particular hate on because Willie and I were instigators. Like we were like, come on, let me make it tough, guys. We weren't popular with our fellow candidates on that course. Yes. We were at the end. But so he, when they're doing these formal inspections,

there's kind of a top level of your drawers, like your dresser drawers that are, it's your shaving kit, your ablutions, supposed to be untouched. It's just laid there for show. And he took that Polaroid and put it on the top right where I hadn't opened that drawer in weeks. and in that when the warrant officer pulled that open, there's this perfectly placed Polaroid of Willie Shit. So it's not supposed to be there, obviously.

And so he opens it up and he walks back up front where I'm standing in front of my bunk and he goes, I won't say his name, Garbo Green, all the other gentlemen of pictures of beautiful women in their Abolutions Kid and you have a picture of shit, what kind of twisted individual are you? And I just finished my jump course. I'm like, Airborne Warrant,

and it was the only time that that guy ever had even a crack of a smile, that whole course. Yeah, but I remember getting you on that one. You know, there's something we said about dark humor too. Oh, 100%. And I've learned, my wife Haley reminds me that, although she laughs, she works in health care, so she understands dark humor too.

She keeps me in check about when to use dark humor and when not to. company and that kind of I need that reminder once a while or you get some weird looks but dark humor things like that it's it it is a coping mechanism and it's it's it's important it's not offensive it's important it's a survival mechanism for one's brain August August 3rd um uh von ingram and I uh we were about to launch our part of the attack into the school um there and And we got hit from behind. Taliban strong.

Yeah, Taliban, sorry. Yeah, I called the school and that didn't work well fast on. But anyways.

You need that mistake once already. Yep, sure did. But anyways, there's dark humor right there. But, you know,

we got, you know, under contact from behind us by the Taliban. So we went, you know, took a seven or eight guys

there and firing back. And one of the guys won't mention his names. I certainly don't want to embarrass him. But he, he took a round

too, his right dead center of his plate. And he turned around. His face, his eyes were about the size of dinner plates, white, and he started throwing up. So, you know, what Duvonne and I do? We start laughing at him because he's throwing up in the middle of that. You know what I mean? And I know there's probably listeners out there saying, what the hell is wrong with you guys, you know?

But he was fine. He was just, you know, the look on his face was humorous. In a situation where nobody else could understand how that could be the humorous. But we were using that. as a means to survive the hell we were going through in the moment. You know what I mean? But it's not something that's easily translatable into the civilian world, unless you've gone through some pretty horrible stuff.

It's the reason why I do military roundtable. Because I was saying to you this morning, or last night, one of the two, it doesn't matter, that the reason I like military roundtables is because you're this small portion of the Canadian population. And then of the military population, you're even tinier because of what you guys have been through, where you've gone. And we desperately need these voices to talk, you know, to be heard by society as much as, you know, I mentioned the blue-collar roundtables because the blue-collar roundtables are super important. Because you guys don't get voices.

You know, nobody's coming to talk to the military unless you fit a certain pronoun or, you know, unless you're a certain. color or a certain you know if you're attracted to the certain you know like your your your bedroom etiquette is a certain way right that that's getting voices today and it's like it's almost so shocking it's not shocking anymore so when I listen to you guys talk about dark humor and all those things I don't think dark humor is a bad thing at all yet society is trying to erode it it's trying to take it away because you know it seems like it's offensive except when you talk about being in a gun battle, like literally a gun battle.

I don't understand being shot at, never had it happen to me. But I do understand the importance of dark humor and our society trying to do away with it is insane. Yeah. Because it is a coping mechanism that gives people the ability to get through almost unmanageable situations. Yeah, it's, you know, I'll go back to July 12th, 2006. and we get we get we're in helman province and there had been this giant sandstorm and and we managed to move undetected into a staging area and the whole idea was we were going to help the british army and sang in uh because they had been sort of surrounded and cut off and

none of their supplies were were coming through they were down to their last bottle of water and blah blah blah anyway uh interesting part about that story was you know the british airborne commander called General Freakley at the time, who was the U.S. three-star general that was in charge of Operation Enduring Freedom at the time, and said, hey, you know, we're in really rough shape here. You know, we need help like right now. And he goes, no problem. I'm going to send 10th Maldivision.

And the guy goes, now send the Canadians. And, you know, that's a feather in our hat, right? They're like, we don't want the Americans. And not the Americans were bad because they weren't. They're great warriors. They have a very robust system. We fought with them side by side on a number of occasions, but we're different. We fight different.

Our objective is like every single objective is a no-fail mission. And, you know, on this one evening, you know, early morning we get told, hey, there's an IED bomb-making facility on the other side of the Helmand River. And, you know, we're going to do an operation to go clear this out. And so reconnaissance platoon, you guys are going to go stage the target and do a essential. an outer cordon. To keep anybody from squirting out, you're going to develop the objective for us, and we're going to send in the rifle company guys to go do what we called a hard knock, which was, rather than knocking on the door and saying we're here to serve a warrant, we kick the door

down and shoot people. And, you know, we decided, hey, we're going to dismount because there's a bridge over the river. We're not sure if our vehicles will be supported by this bridge. So, you know, we established a vehicle patrol base, and we dismounted 12 guys, and off we go towards the objective to establish the outer cordon. Well, we're halfway across the bridge, you know, maybe half the platoon is across the bridge, and all hell breaks loose. This compound, there's 40 Taliban in there. They have an elevated position. They have firepower advantage.

They have terrain advantage. They're entrenched. We're in the open. We get ambushed in the middle of this bridge. So, you know, fast forward, let's say, 15 and 20 minutes, and John and I are basically sitting behind this mud wall and, you know, all hell's breaking loose and we're trying to set up a fire base and stuff. And I light a smoke and I'm like, you want to smoke? He's like, sure. And we're sitting behind this thing.

And I'm like, hey, today's my sister's birthday. I wonder how she's doing. You know, we're just having a regular conversation and there's explosions and bullets. And, you know, we're kind of waiting for the cavalry to come. but you get, like I said before, you get comfortable in chaos. You know, we had a guy got shot in the back. You know, he's down. We can't spot him.

We're trying to figure out how we get to him, how we, you know, another guy takes shrapnel in the knee. And we're just like, we're like, oh, my God, you know, all hell's breaking loose. But we're creating that little bit of normal connection. It's just, and John and I used to say this all the time. Hey, man, it's just another day at the office. You know, and if you, if you don't normalize that, then you seriously run the risk of having some very severe consequences afterwards, mentally, right? And so we did a really good job at that. And our guys would look at us and say, what is wrong with you two?

You know, and we're their leadership. And they're like, what is wrong with you guys? And him and I would just laugh, you know, and the boys trusted us. they knew it didn't matter how bad of a situation we got into. They 100% trusted our judgment, our determination, you know, and never, ever questioned anything we asked them to do. You know, we did lead by example. And if I can pat myself on the back, I don't like doing that. But we led by example.

We would, you know, there's a lot of times it was Willie and I going in the door, you know, I'd kick the door in and we go in because having a small, small platoon. My beer's overflowing. We had a beer malfunction there. Having a small platoon and we're in the G, the G, the G wagons there. That is a first for the podcast. You're foaming up and you can hear it coming through. That's good.

That's just, the audience is truly in the room today. Yep. But sorry, just to finish my point, there, you know, the G wagons had a turret and it had a drive-river and every vehicle had three. guys and you know or four if you're lucky there but you have to leave two with the vehicle one in the turret and then one you know behind the wheel when you're under condo you have to you can't abandon the vehicle right so a lot of the times that left me willie my secular and maybe one or two other guys to go go kick a door and

so I hopefully I believe the boys they did see that and said hey well if they're doing that type of hard stuff and putting their own selves at per original wrist and And, you know, that's going to inspire me to be able to do the same thing. Like, we weren't ones not, you know, we didn't, we didn't lead from afar. We were right there with them, which is. Yeah, we used to take turns being first through a door. And you have no idea what's on the other side of that door. I mean, it's not like the movies.

We didn't have fancy little snake cameras and stuff. We're just like, okay, we're going to breach this door. You know, if we're lucky, we have a five-banger or a seven-banger, so a flashbang. We're going to throw that in there. If not, we have to make a judgment column. whether or not we're going to throw a frag grenade in there because we don't know there could be women and children in there right non-combatants and then uh okay who's going through the door first and who's going to absorb all the bullets and so john and i used to take turns being that person that

went through the door first because you know we wanted to share that risk with with our soldiers and uh and i think you know i mean jamie's in the other room snoring probably but you know he would be able to tell you from a ground guy perspective the type of respect that that, you know, the soldiers had for John and I because of the things that we did, right? And how we ran our operations. So, you know, and again, it's not to pat anybody on the back. It's just to say, hey, man, you know, leadership lessons are often hard learned and you cannot be an effective leader unless you're willing to suffer the same hardships as everybody else. And there's an important thing that may be being missed here.

I very rarely give compliments what I'm going to give one now. Just so it's clear to the listeners is that an important part of leadership is being able to defer decisions if you can. And we've all heard the term about that's a tomorrow's Sean problem. You know, you can, that's a tomorrow's Sean problem. But what you're doing in an instant when things are happening in real time. is that you need to have the ability is that's a 10 minutes away problem and to defer it and to embrace what you're in right now deal with that step by step and then deal with the next one 10

minutes and you can only do that if you have the ultimate confidence in your own leadership so and and the way you build that is by being experience it's experience is is is is is stress yeah right is putting yourself in in the stressful situation and learning and building and going okay Because one of the things I you know this is you know you guys are talking about breaching doors and taking bullets and everything else The stuff I talk about is not in the same realm except it is it rhymes I guess like it's similar Just the danger's gone on it from the the physical sense of bullets But when I when I put on shows live events like public speaking Even now I look at it like it's fun because it is you know

You have the choice of choosing whether you know is it fun or is it not Yeah And one of the things I remind myself, even with five minutes before a show, if I got things I got to get done, I got five minutes. You still have time. There is time. It's almost like you can, with your brain, when you say a 10 minute problem, it's almost like a change in the mindset can take one minute and turn it into one hour. Just by the change of how you look at it. We still have time.

There's time. When you're not tricking yourself, it's actually, I think it's a really valuable tool is that, You see this prevalence of what I'm using air quotes right now, anxiety now. And that's people thinking too much, too far into the future, things that they cannot control. There's enough real shit that will happen in your day-to-day life that you're wasting your time. Yeah, well, the Bible says worry about today. Exactly. Not tomorrow.

There's enough problems of today. Give yourself the grace and the confidence to deal with things as they come. If you believe in yourself and you have a value structure that will allow you do that, then it's not as big a deal. anxiety does not need to be a thing you know like truly you know it's I read a great book and it really helped me through a lot of things it's a man's search for me me sorry a man's search memes were you going to say memes for memes by Victor frank yeah great book and one of the things he says you know when he was in a concentration camp there and had everything stripped away from his very you know they put a number in his arm and he chose to go through that yeah and he's like

you know, the only thing I can control is how I reacted to this situation. And, man, that's a pretty poignant thought to have when you're right in the middle of, you know, having your entire existence stripped away. And, and that's what kept him alive. And, you know, I think that's an important lesson for everyone. You can, you can all, the only thing in life you'll ever be able to control is how you react to a certain, you know, situation. If I may, John, I talk about 1984 a lot. I talk about Animal Farm. I talked about Solgen-Enson on books people should read.

But Man's Search for Meeting, and I should bring it up more often, by Victor Franco, is probably the best book I've ever read. And the reason why is it's Jordan Peterson-esque. And he chooses to go through concentration cap. He literally chooses because he doesn't want to leave his family. He has the option. and instead of doing that. And it's Jordan Peterson writing a book about it

that's like 170 pages, if that. And in every page is so much wisdom. It's just, it's almost mind-boggling. It's the only book that I've read where I've actually highlighted things so I could go back and refer to it easy because you're right, it's about 170-page book or whatever.

Half of that is his experience. And then the back half is the clinical side of things. The clinical side of things. Which, you know, I had to probably read some of those pages. just two or three times. That's why you had your crayons. That's right. I did crayons.

I thought, man, there's got to be something to color in here soon. But no, so it's, you know, but it's, and I still refer to it when I'm like, when I'm starting to lose sight of, of, you know, who I am, what I've been through and how I've come through it, you know, when I start getting caught up in the, you know, this societal mentality today of, you know, anxiety over, over what? What the hell am I anxious about? Yeah. Man, that's self-induced.

I got to go back and read that book. and remind myself, you know, the highlighted parts there of what's going on here. And I, I, it's one of those, you know, there's so many books out there that I think that book should be read at a young age in school. Instead of reading books, the garbage they're making kids read today, read that one in grade nine, and that will help them through their high school career. And they'll go through it with a lot less anxiety and, you know, not to get, too far down the rabbit hole, but it's, you know,

I don't know why we don't teach mental resiliency at a young age. Same like I don't know why we don't teach proper finances at a young age. I don't, you know, we seem focused on the liberal arts things instead of actual survival skills that our kids can

can use, you know. But anyway, so like I said, I kind of got off track there, but recommend anyone out there to read that book if you're going through something tough. Well. You read that and it'll help. it'll help you. Yeah, you know, and not to beat this to death, but, you know,

Ian mentioned it earlier when he said, you know, embrace the cock. That should be embrace the cop. I had a really hard time saying that. You know, I, it's actually supposed to be embrace the suck. And, you know, the U.S. Special Forces has a saying that the only easy day was yesterday. And, you know, it speaks to all those points, except for the cock thing. Anyway, I think it's important that if we wake up every single day and go, you know what, there are going to be challenges today that I'm going to have to face,

but I am 100% prepared for those challenges. I think I have the right tools. I have the right attitude, you know, to get through the day, then you're okay. And I mean, that's called good stress. We all have stress and there's good stress and there's bad stress. Good stress gets us out of bed in the morning. Bad stress, you know, could lead to any number of scenarios that are not positive. But, you know, if you approach the day knowing that there are going to be challenges

and committed to your course of action and understanding that you can do it, man, there is nothing that's not possible. Well, I think of a famous American military man, Jocko, when he says, good. It's just simple. Good. You didn't get what you want it? Good. And there's a whole speech by him on good. Learn from it.

Yeah. How many times in your military career to switch gears here? Did you guys almost run out of it? It doesn't matter. I don't know what to. Food, water. Because you brought up the British saying they were down to the last water bottle. Ammo.

I just go on and on and on. In today's society, we're so focused on the end of the world coming and we're just going to hunker down and we're going to have a room full of bullets and we got this water and we got that and whatever and I'm like how many times in the military when you're over in a foreign country did you get close to having well not enough these guns have way better stories but I'm going to do one important one ninety two Norway we were on against the Geneva Convention I found out afterwards on on IMPs for the so the individual meal packs the Canadian MREs for the listeners is that and then

What we got to realize out of that is or I realize personally is that oh you don't need to eat every fucking four hours And it was it was kind of a test and then I realized you don't even need to eat for days Yeah, it's it's one of those and then you'll only learn that kind of thing by experience it experiencing it empirically. Like you need to go through it before you realize. And it's one thing I tried to, I did with my wife and kids, to be honest, not in a cruel way, but we'd be traveling in South America. I'm like, listen, you actually don't need to eat every couple hours. You're going to be fine.

Your body adapts. And there's, it's, and the lesson of that is there's no reason to panic. Most things that people panic about, and that's a great example about how long can you go without food, water, you know, airs, airs, are kind of critical, but until you've tested yourself, you don't know. So it's with every person, if you haven't given the ability, been given the opportunity to test yourself, you will not know. And you'll be lacking that little bit of an edge on the rest of society that you haven't. And we see it firsthand.

If the internet went out right now, I don't know how long we'd go before total chaos, right? Yeah. Well, Greener, you know, it brings me back to when him and I were on that leadership course and, you know, somebody would say, I'm hungry and Greener right away, he's pretty quick dude. He'd be like, food is for pigs. And then, then, you know, someone would say, oh, I don't know if I should eat or sleep. And Greener would say, sleep is for the week, food is for pigs. And, you know, these poor people, our colleagues would just, you know, it would just crush their morale.

And him and I would be laughing our heads off. Right. The reason, that's great. The reason I bring it up, actually, is, as. we sit here recording this, some of the biggest solar flares have been happening on the sun. Okay? And so there is, they say, 10% chance. It's cataclysmic.

We're knocked back to the Stone Age. All this electrical stuff. This conversation never gets aired because it's all fried. And so, you know, if I'm a, if my sole purpose was prepping people, this is like Christmas. I'm happy to have this silver in my pocket right now. Yeah. Well, I chuckled. On the way here, it's funny you say that.

On the way here, I'm like, you know, if everything got knocked out, how am I getting back to my family? I'm like, well, I've biked across the country. I'd probably grab a bike and I'd start biking. And I got a thing of silver, so that's going to go pretty far in finding me probably a meal, a place to sleep, or a vehicle that actually works, because it will be valuable and people will allow it. Get a horse, man. Or a horse, sure. Steal a horse. A lot of horses around here.

Well, I tell you what. I was doing the math in my head on the way. Weird, I guess, morbid thought. I'm like, if this sort of flares what it is, I'm like, well, I've biked a country. I'm not in that tip-top shape again. But the fastest man across the country who rode the entire thing on a bike did it in under 13 days. Wow. Incredible.

So from Regina to Lloyd, I think I can do it in a couple of days. Sure. And is it going to suck? Yeah, but good. Okay. Carry on with life. going back to it though with the solar flare thing you know everybody's on edge not everybody obviously half a society three-quarters society have no idea it's even happening um but like uh i

was got some sent some pictures last night for my brother of the northern lights because they were phenomenal yeah they were right like all the on one side you got all this like doom and gloom everything is going to be done and then my other bar goes my just go watch it with the wife like the the northern lights are going to be spectacular they were spectacular spectacular last night. But you guys have been pushed to the brink. Like to your point, Ian, like you've been pushed to the brink. And most people, even if the brink actually isn't what you thought it was, right?

That's probably what you find out. When you think you're at the brink, you don't know your brink. You don't know your brink. Yeah. You know, Sean, we've been there more times than not, probably. And, you know, John can probably expand on this. but, you know, supply chain is, is, and logistics is probably, aside from communication, the most critical element of any operation, doesn't have to be a military operation, can be any

operation. And if you don't have that, then you can't be successful. You know, that's arguable. You know, there's folks out there that, you know, they run out of bullets, they fight with their knife. their knife breaks in half, they fight with their hands. They use what they have at their disposal. Right. And Ian mentioned it.

You know, you adapt to that, your body adapts to those circumstances. Now, a conventional war with bullets and rockets and, you know, bombs, et cetera, et cetera, it's a little bit of a different story. You know, you can't fight a bullet with a stone, but maybe you could. But, you know, we've been there where we have no food. We have no water. were like, this is it. Like we're running out of ammo.

August 3rd. I had like 13 bullets left. And I carried 10 magazines, 30 round magazines. I went through almost 300 rounds of ammunition in a fairly short period of time, arguably. And I was down to like 13 bullets. That's all I had left. And I was like, you know,

If we don't get out of here pretty quick, then, you know, really bad things are going to happen because there was no machine gun ammo left. You know, the grenades were gone. We had no M72s. It's just, you know. We, you know, in that, I think the added thing on there as well is we didn't know people were coming for us because of the communication issue. Right. We had no water left. Yeah.

You can never, in that theater at that time with that heat and the enemy, you're facing you can never carry enough water you can never carry enough and you know ammo uh and and and we were hurting down to you know in the single did digits of of rounds uh and they were closing in on us and you know not knowing that somebody was on their way to to support us that's that was a i can remember that's a very daunting feeling guys you know obviously The blast went and we had casualties and, you know, people dead and hurt, but you don't sit there and lick your nuts. You just, you're going to, if you have nine bullets left, you're going to fire all nine until until you don't have them. And then I guess if you get the opportunity to club one of the pricks in the face when they come around the corner, you're going to fucking well do that too.

And that's, you know, we were literally at that point or certainly very, very close to it. not the right time for a victim mentality. Well, poor me, I have no bullets. No, you fucking, you hold on and you give her, because you know what, there's a realization. They may get me, but I'm going to take three or four of your pricks along with me there. And that's, I think, was instinctual to a lot, a lot of the guys there. It's like, yeah, we know we're in a shitty spot.

It's all that toxic masculinity. Yeah. Well, I was, I was, you know, I was. Sware for my toxic masculinity. I was a whisker hair away from, like, becoming a heat casualty myself. Yes. It was 60 degrees Celsius. You know, you're carrying 70 pounds of gear and wearing a helmet and all the rest of it.

And I had a, I had no water, but I had a package of gastrolite. What is gastrolite? You know, you give your kids pedia light when they get the shit. Okay, yeah, yeah. And it's a powder. Okay. And so I was like, well, this is the only thing that maybe is going to help me. So I swallowed down this, this powder.

I got it in my mouth and of course there's no moisture in my mouth or whatever and I coughed. It looked like I just did a couple lines of Coke because it came through my nose and and you know I was sneezing and then but I'll tell you what it worked it worked within

straight raid yeah within like a minute I felt great but you know again you don't know you could smell we could smell our muscles burning because there's no fat left on your body I mean, I was sitting around 130 pounds at the time.

When I left for Afghanistan, I was 163. And when I came home, I was 129 pounds. I was 210 when I left 170 when I got back. It's a great weight loss program. Yeah. But you can smell that. And you just know your body is eating itself to survive. And you've got to change out your helmet liner because it smells so bad, right?

You're just like, I got to change this out. But, you know, all those experiences, as horrible as they were. At the time, you know, they made us stronger, right? Well, they're building blocks of who you become, right? Yeah. It's no different than my little story of driving here and going, well, if it all goes out, what can you do?

Well, pedal bike doesn't run on anything, and I've certainly rode it a long way. And it's kind of like, where's your, you know, how far can you push yourself until you've gotten a pedal bike and just rode for a day. You might be surprised how far you can ride the dam. Yeah, yeah. But most people would never think to do that, right?

Yeah. And it's almost outside their mind. The food thing is crazy when you go, I'm not going to eat for 24 hours, which you three will probably laugh at. But that, to most people, is a crazy idea. You can go two weeks if you need to. There's been a man who did over a year. Yeah.

I think it's... What? I'm not eating? Yeah, he was like super fat, though. Super obese. And his body ate all the fat, right? just slowly, I'm not saying that was easy for them. I'm just saying, you know, particularly healthy probably.

You know, hey, I want to kind of switch gears a little bit. Sure. Because I want to bring in into this a little bit more. And it's still, you know, Canadian Army-centric. So I'm on the airplane yesterday. My good buddy, Darrell Clark and I are flying here for Jamie's retirement party. And we got to talking about some stuff. And he said, oh, my brother-in-law is a,

was a corpsman in the US Marines and spent, he went through Fallujah and all this. And he came for a visit in Calgary and we went to this military event and he was blown away because he's like, how do you guys all know each other? Like you just, you get in a room and whether it's once removed or twice removed, you've all occupied the same space at the same time at some point in time. And so where I'm going with this is, you know, the Canadian military small, 60,000 all Army Navy Air Force, regular Army, or regular forces. And compare that to the U.S. military, it's a drop in the bucket.

And so the reason I'm sharing this is because, again, I want to bring Ian into this. In 2009, Darren Fitzgerald gets killed. Well, actually, he didn't get killed. He got blown up in Afghanistan, you know, both legs gone. Traumatic amputation, one of his arms. And he's literally gone. from the naval down, right? Modern battlefield medicine, they keep him alive.

So he gets on a plane, he gets flown home, he's at the hospital in Eminton, his mom and dad and brothers and family shows up. And they have to make the really difficult decision on whether or not to keep him alive via machines or remove the machines and let him pass away. So that whole thing lasts about, you know, I want to say nine days before mom and dad are like, okay, we can't watch him suffer.

Like, they's got no quality of life. We got to let him go. But in the meantime, my regimental sergeant major, Pete Leger, calls me, and I was the combat support sergeant major at the time. I think it might have been Jarlie company. But says, hey, Willie, Darren Fitzgerald got blasted to shit in an IED yesterday. He's still alive, but he's not going to make it. You need to do the funeral. And I'm like, okay.

So, you know, there's no bucket of money that opens up until that soldier's actually deceased. So now we've got to figure out the logistics of putting resources into planning a funeral, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, we got to do it with no money. So anyway, the reason I'm telling you this story and the reason that I'm trying to link it to the size of the Canadian military is, you know, really good friend of mine and, and Ian's as well, Dave Push at the time, Edmonton City Fire Department, call him up and say, hey, man, I'm trying to plan this funeral. We're going to hold it in the cathedral on Jasper Avenue where

Wayne Gretzky got married, and I need to block off Jasperov. And I need the fire department to have two pumper, two ladder trucks with giant Canadian flags on either end of Jasper F. So he goes, Roger, I got you covered. Then I call the RCMP, I call the city police, I call the sheriff's department, you know, and I know people from all of these places because we all served in the military together. And I'm like, I need traffic control, I need this, here's the route, blah, blah, blah. And then, you know, Darren Fitzsimmons, I think I might have said Fitzgerald. Fitzs was his name.

He came from Kamloops. So his mom and dad said, okay. We'll do the funeral in Eminton, but we want to have an internment in Kamloops. So now I've got to think about the logistics of getting the remains from the funeral home to the airport, how to transfer those remains into an airplane, have the airplane fly to Kamloops, have someone on the other side to receive the remains, do a ramp ceremony on the other side, and then do the internment in a cemetery in Kamloops. So I'm like, who do I know that's a commercial pilot that's a good friend of mine that can help out?

all greener. I'm my greener. Here's the story, man. I need your help. He's like, I'm on it, bro. And I'll kind of let you take it from there, because it's a good story, and I think you should tell it from your perspective. Well, and it's good. And it's, I've let the, as all stories do, get altered over the years on one-on-one personal levels, but Willie called me, and I didn't know Fitzsimmons personally at all, but I knew Willie and Push, and he told me what had happened to date is that he says we need to we need to move this his remains to it was can loops I think it was camloops yeah I think it was camloops yeah I think it was chaloox with a connection and stuff and it's not just because I was working at the office at the time but I knew at the time

that the company that I worked for if I expressed my case that and a little bit of time and effort could make it happen and it was it took some coordinating, just the same thing that really was doing at the time. And we were able to go above and beyond to make sure that the family was loaded, that the passengers were briefed about what was happening. This was a repatriation and stuff. And the company that I worked for made it happen outstandingly. And Willie's giving me credit.

And I can probably say his name, but Pete Daw was the CEO at the time. officer. I got this glowing letter from, uh, from the battalion about how I had stepped up into it. I know that really had a big part of that and stuff. Um, I was not able to, uh, I was coming back from Honolulu. I was dutied out, not able to operate the flight specifically, but my heart was along for the whole thing. And, uh, I was following along as every step taken. And it was a dear comrade that got to do it, but we made sure that no detail was missed. And then really, really, he's leaving a little bit out about how push and j reinl too yeah he's name stepped up to make sure that from the as painful as an experience as it was for the family that nothing no detail was missed on that

entire yeah it was it was it was really really amazing and and for me again like i said it earlier it was a no fail mission right it has to be executed perfectly um it has to be done with the utmost respect and honor and everything else and and and you know the the the part that greener's talking about again he's being a little bit humble about it. You know, his organization took care of the security requirements. We didn't even set foot in the airport. We drove straight out from the funeral home in a big, you know, convoy with all the different law enforcement agencies sort of taking over insofar as their jurisdiction allowed them.

We drove right out onto the ramp. We did the ramp ceremony. All the passengers were made to wait in the terminal. until we got the remains on the aircraft and then and then the family was boarded from from an external air stare or whatever and then uh you know the the pilot made sure that everybody was made aware of what was happening and you know people were like in absolute shambles like in tears um at how beautifully done it was and and you know the airline um and you're avoiding it so i won't say it uh we're which airline it was. You know, it's primarily Western Canada, blue, green colors. Anyway, I got to give them credit.

Just in case I say something during the time. I got to give them credit because when they got to the other end, they said, hey, nobody can leave the aircraft. We have to get the remains off, and the military is going to do a parade to make that happen. And before anybody gets up and starts going crazy, we're going to have to get the family off the aircraft, and then you'll be allowed to deplane after.

that and and you know just you we think to ourselves maybe that's a small you know that's a small detail that you know it's easy for them to do it's not easy for them to do but they remained focused on the mission uh with ian's help uh to ensure that everything was done very respectfully and and in the right way and you know there is something to be said about the fact that we have this community and and to bring this back to the top end of the conversation um from an hour or so ago, you know, we have this community and we all know each other. And whether or not you know each other really well or not really well, we're always going to do the right thing. And I think that's super, super special. And, you know, the three of us being here

together and in a decade since the three of us have been in the same room, I think is super special too. And, and, you know, we got to, we got to give some credit to Jim for finally, finally retiring. Well, and maybe where we'll wrap this up so we can allow you boys to. to get on with the festivities and everything else, and I really do appreciate you sitting here and doing this, is not that I want to fill Jim's head full of anything, but it is a guy's retirement. And so maybe we could just end on a couple thoughts on Sinclair.

You know, the listenership certainly knows who he is. I joked last night. I get two texts when he's on. One is he's the funniest man alive, keep him coming on. The other one is, tell him to shut up. He talks to. much and I always laugh at it. It comes in like simultaneously, which I think it's hilarious. I think he

thinks it's hilarious. But without having him on the podcast, I would never have been here. Like I wouldn't even know one to, you know, and so I guess I'm going to start by just saying, hey, Jim, because I know you're going to listen to this. You know, congratulations on a career. I don't know you from the military days. I know him from where he is now. And I look forward, you know like I look forward to his calls all the time. Heck, he called me. We went up, my wife's from the States, and we were on family holidays in South Dakota last year, overlooking, what the heck is that, the plateau or something?

Anyways, it was this beautiful view. And I'm getting a phone call and it's Jamie and I'm like, of course Jamie's calling me right now. And I answered it because I always, you know, I try to answer his call every time he calls. And I'm laughing because he's, you know, it's just this fond memory I have of, you know, being on family vacation and this guy I've met through the podcast and now being here in this room with you folks and all the people he's introduced me to. So I guess I'm all I'll hand it over to you guys, but congratulations on a career, which sounds quite epic, if I may say so, but you boys can chime in on Sinclair and then I'll let you out of here. I'll start first because I have a

handwritten letter from my family. I've made it a point of introducing my adult children to Jamie, just because that's how important he is to me. My wife is a quote. I was going to start off with an impersonation. Fuck boys, I don't even know, but I won't. Is that, is that he, a quote from my wife, I'm not going to get into the details letter, about how good of a person he is and how important he is to all of us. And it's the kind of sincerity that you rarely find now. And it's so important for all of us to. And I thank you, showing for having him and letting the world in its capacity to understand him. So I'll leave it with it. I think you should finish it.

Sure. I'll chime in. There'll be tears if we're not careful. Yeah. No, I, uh, look, uh, be chasing after cock or whatever. Embrace the cock. He always embraced the cock. Yeah.

It sounds like a Sinclair slogan. No, I've lost my train of thought. But anyways, I would have minimized Jimmy of as a Canadian patriot. A man loves his country. He loves his friends. You know, he loves his family. If you're in need and you reach out to Jimmy Sinclair, he will be there. And I've learned a lot from him.

and I hate to see you know he's old like all of us I guess but guys like that go like that's the type of guy you want in the military and anybody listening to this that you know wants a good idea of what a Canadian soldier should be you know Jimmy's right there you know he he was great great at it and

like I said biggest thing of him you'll always have your back So I'm very honored to have them in my friendship group. Sweet. I'm literally going to start. Sweet. I'm literally fucking sweet. I'm literally going to start by saying all four of us that are participating in this podcast came from fairly significant distances to be here.

And that in and of itself somewhat speaks volumes to Jamie. And he's probably got a glass against the wall. listening to this and he's he's either crying or something anyway um you know i think that i've known jamy for a really long time since i was about 16 years old so you know that's 35 years of friendship and and jamie and i have always been close and i consider him a brother john talked about you know blood relation and and you know the word brother to me when i when i use that in this group to include Jamie, I mean it. It's like when I say, hey, bro, how's it going?

I'm not dropping that as a catchy jargon thing. I'm dropping it because I mean it. And so John mentioned it. You know, Jamie is a patriot. He'll give you the shirt off his back. He's just a good human being. And don't get me wrong. We don't agree on everything, right?

Him and I have battles sometimes, but there's a mutual respect there. and I listen to his perspective. He listens to my perspective. Sometimes we walk away without solving the problem, but that's okay. I love that guy more than anything. He has given so much to so many that being here for a few hours is the least we can do to honor his service, 34 plus years in the Canadian Armed Forces. You know, he served in the Regina Rifles.

He served in the Canadian Airborne Regiment. He served in the First Battalion of the United Armed Forces. Princess Patricia's. He served in the Thurbitine of the Princess Patricias. You know, he's done, he's done so much. And one of the stories that him and I love to talk about was in Afghanistan. It's not a sexy story. There was no bullets flying. There was none of this. But, you know, a handful of guys got blown up by IEDs, and John and I got the call to respond to help out where we could. And we get there, and it was Jamie Sinclair's platoon. And, you know, where's Sinclair? I don't know, he ran off from the hills somewhere.

And, you know, I'll keep this very, very short, but, you know. You don't need to keep it very short. I looked at John and I go, hey, man, we got to go find Jimmy because, like, nobody knows where he is. He's got no radio, right? So we actually tracked him and chased after him, caught up with him eventually. And he was out doing the job that nobody else could do. He was tracking the enemy. He was drawing up a rainier.

cards and and gathering information and and you know doing it in isolation in the middle of Afghanistan and bad guy country all by himself and and he's doing that because he cared so much and he's such a professional and and you know I learned the best parts of of my military service from that guy you know he's two years older than me and and always acted as a mentor and always willing to help and and share his knowledge and you know the least that we could do at that point in time was to go find our friend and that's what I want to end up you know um don cherry and Ron McLean used to get in an argument um roughly about the United States and if uh and what it always came back to I think if I remember this correctly at least this is

how my young mind remembered it is if your buddy gets in a bar fight are you getting in the bar fight with him. Or are you just letting him fight it, even if he's wrong? Yeah. And the answer when Jamie Sinclair is the guy at the spearhead of that is we're fighting. Yeah. We're not going to Ron McLean it. We're not going to Ron McLean.

Sorry, Ron. Sorry, Ron. Ron's been on the podcast lots. And that's one guy last night. When I tell that story, no fight happened. But I looked around the room and I could tell. Like, things are going, and everybody's rallying around, everyone, right? And he exudes that, and it's brought us all here.

So thank you so much for doing this, guys. I appreciate it, give me some time, and have a little bit of fun with my world. This is what we do. And to add some new faces to it, new voices, I guess, not faces, is a lot of fun for me. And I know for the listener, hearing different perspectives from the military specifically is really important. And coming here for Sinclair's retirement, it's been a lot of fun so far, and we still got lots to go. Well, Sean, thank you. This is, things like this are really important to have these conversations and, you know, to have an opportunity to be honest and have a real discussion about things and just life.

That's important and good on you for getting that out there to others there that maybe will take something away from this podcast and learn something from it there. So thanks for that. Thanks for the opportunity. Thanks, Sean. Thanks for the shook-up beer. You're doing great work, Sean. The shook-up beer. Catch it next time, eh?