Shaun Newman Podcast - #656 - Mark Oshinskie

Episode Date: June 10, 2024

He spent 30 years as lawyer, is an author and publishes articles on his Substack “Dispatches from a Scamdemic”. Let me know what you think. Text me 587-217-8500 Substack:https://open.substack.com/pub/shaunnewmanpodcast E-transfer here: [e-mail] Website: https://silvergoldbull.ca/ Email: [e-mail] Text: [phone] – and be sure to let them know you’re an SNP listener. Ticket for Dr. James Lindsay “Parental Rights Tour”: https://brushfire.com/anv For more information on Mark’s book. Email: [e-mail] Mark’s Substack: https://markoshinskie8de.substack.com/

This is Tom Bodrovics. This is Alex Kraner. This is Sean Alexander. This is Taner today. This is Tom Romago. This is Moka Bezergian. And you're listening to Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks.

Happy Monday. How's everybody doing today? Let's start here. How about this? Government deficits are running out of control. And now might be the perfect time to, I can't spit it out today. What is this? Now might be the perfect time.

Happy Monday. I jinxed myself because I think it was Chris Sims, who said, she laughed at me in the opening last Monday or maybe two Mondays ago because I seem to do the same thing every money. What is it about Mondays? I don't know. Maybe you're having a Monday, too. I seem to be having one.

Government deficits, they're running out of control. I'm talking gold and silver. That's what I'm trying to get to. I'm talking about Silver Gold Bull. You can text her email Graham down in the show notes for more details. You can just text their email and saying, hey, thanks for supporting, supporting the SMP. supporting the SMP. Appreciate it, folks.

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Bonneville, Emmington, and Red Deer, Calgary, Brooks. In the show notes, you got tickets. Go grab yourself a couple in the links. If you've never heard Dr. James Lindsay speak, I have. He was in Calgary last year, and very, very gifted speaker. He was awesome.

And, of course, he's been on the Joe Rogan experience multiple times. He's an American author, PhD in mathematics, and host the new Discourses podcast. Once again, down the show notes, there's a link for tickets. Profit River, Clay, Smiley. They specialize in importing firearms

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We chuckle, there's a part in there where we're talking about, you know, if you were going off to fight the, at the time, the joke was the Russians up north in the Arctic. What gun would you grab at Prophet River? You'll have to go listen to Chuck Prodnick's answer. Either way, I suggest you stop in and see what they store there. You can find out everything. Just go to Profitriver.com.

They are the major retailer of firearms, optics and accessories serving all of Canada. Carly Kloss and the team over at Windsor Plywood Builders of the podcast Studio Table. man alive. It's deck season. All right. I know we had the trampoline because of the wind in Lloyd the other day blow over the fence.

Got home and I'm like, uh, did our trampoline? Just go over the... Yes, it did. Regardless, been hanging out on the deck a little bit. And when it comes to deck season, wood, these are the folks, whether we're talking mantles, decks, windows, door,

sheds, podcast studio tables, stop in today, Windsor plywood. Um, Cornerstone Forum is now all out on Substack. So if you didn't get a chance to see the April 20 event, April 28th event in, holy man, happy Monday. April 28th event in Lloydminster with all the different speakers. Um, you know, uh, now you can find it all on Substack, four different parts, uh, four different parts. Man, alive. Just get on to the, just get on to the show, Sean.

Four different parts here, folks. You can see it all. All the videos are broke down. And all you've got to do is sign up for a paid subscription. I think it's $8 a month, you know, and now you get access to the entire Cornerstone Forum Conference. That's what I got for you today. How about we get on to that tail of the tape?

He spent 30 years as an attorney. He's also an author and now writes Dispatches from a Scam-Demic on Substack. I'm talking about Mark O'Sinski. So buckle up. Here we go. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Today, I'm joined by Mark Oshinsky. So, sir, thanks for hopping on.

Thanks for having me, Sean. Now, you, I got to give a shout out to Grant. Grant is the one who put me on to you. He follows your substack, said I should take a look at it. And from there, I started doing a little bit of reading and went, yeah, okay, I'll reach out to this. And, of course, now you've accepted, and here you are. But for the average listener, they probably don't know who Mark,

is. So why don't we just start with a bit of your background on who you are? You know, you can go as long or as short as you like. Okay. Let's start from the president's ad. Do you have a substack that I've been writing for three and a half years now. I actually started writing about what I call the scam pandemic on the first night. I wrote on Medium.com for a while, and then they de-platform me because they said I was spreading misinformation about the vaccines. And they got this idea to check on me by someone snitching on me. So that's kind of a story in of itself. But so I write on substack. What do I do? Well, I was an attorney, a litigating attorney for 30 years. And then I became a community garden manager in New Brunswick, New Jersey. So, um,

I did that for the last nine years, and I don't do that anymore. Now I'm just doing my substack and trying to hold my wife's ladder while she does her career stuff. So that's the thumbnail of it. I've studied a fair amount of biology and sociology in college before law school, and given the garden work that I do, I'm very attuned to nature and biological processes. And this is one of the things that clued me into the scam from day one. I mean, my notion is fundamentally that biological systems are fundamentally stable. They change very little.

And why would we as a culture, as a world, as a nation, think that this virus was worse, qualitatively worse than any prior virus to the extent that we would do something we had never done before, locked down healthy people? It made no sense to me from the beginning. It seemed really suspicious. As time has gone by, I think the suspicions have been borne out by the magnitude of frequency of the lies on these topics. And just the non-unstop nature of the lies, it's just obviously something going on that's not public healthier. And it always has been clear to me.

It's just become clearer as time has gone by. You know, when you go back to March 2020, in and around that time frame. You said you started writing about it immediately. Yeah, walk me through that. Because, you know, on this side, I always say, you know, in March 2020, I bought it hook, line, sinker. You got young kids probably wasn't paying attention to most of the world.

It took until May of 2020 when I was working for Baker Hughes at the time, and they said, we're not going back to in-person working until there's a vaccine. and I was like, what? Like, there hasn't, you know, there's been nothing go on. I thought we're, I thought that we're about to be told we're coming back to work, right? Like, and, and that really shook me. But, you know, if I have maybe one regret, is that on the podcast, I didn't start talking to people such as yourself until basically August 2021. So I kept my thoughts behind closed doors for too long. And I've seen you say different things in your substack, you know, most recently about Aaron Rogers, that he waited too long to speak out. And there's a whole.

bunch of people that waited too long to speak out, and I would put myself in that category. And when you say you started writing about it immediately, I guess I'm just kind of curious. Walk me through those early days. Okay, well, let me start with by the same thing, Sean. So I wrote this book, and this book is a compilation of essays that I've written on the topic. And the very first essay is an essay I wrote on the very first night of a scamdemic. So I was lying in bed. and there's a radio station in New York area

that plays nice music at night, kind of like, you know, Afro pop and avant-garde sort of stuff, very relaxing. So I was listening to that and they do news at the top of the hour, and I heard this announcement that Como was going to order a shelter in place the following day. And I'm from the New York City area. And, you know, there's a zillion people here.

And I thought, this is the craziest thing ever. this realm works only by magic it seems there's so much that needs to go together for everything to function right and so to take water and just dump it on or since they just water but to take a sledgehammer to this intricately interwoven economy and society just seemed crazy to me from the beginning again, as I said before, I know a fair amount of biobiology. I read a lot about human health. I've been doing that for a long time. I'm a former, or at least I was until recently a farmer.

And I know that living things want to live. And that disease is something that happens on the very margins of society. And then we would take something that exists on the margins of society and put it at the center of society. from the first time ever was crazy. I just intuitively knew all these things. As to bringing this to public attention, I wrote an essay that night. That's the first chapter in this book.

And basically, I say those things and more about how we all require each other's company to survive. We all require each other's coexistence economically to survive. It's just a very slim margin sort of civilization that we have because it is so new so many people and so many things need to function well. So to take all that apart or a disease that in my understanding on that night and even in a week before that was only affecting at worst the oldest and sickest people in Europe in places that are known to have aging populations, Italy and Spain. And so when I heard, oh, well, people in Italy and Spain are dying, I'm thinking, yeah, that's because those populations are skewed old. And that's unfortunate for those people. But most of those people would have died soon anyway.

And there's no reason for healthy people to redo their lives and cause all the dysfunction attendant to that. I thought, if you're an elderly person, you ought to do what you normally do in the winter, which is kind of be careful. and say your prayers and hope for the best, but not to request or require anyone that wasn't at risk from the beginning to do so. It was clearly known. And I know at this stage, so many people have said, oh, but we couldn't have known that. And like, why would you depart from centuries of public health practice

and say, okay, we're going to lock healthy people in place even though we know, both historically and recently, given the data that we have, that healthy people are not at risk, only a small fraction of the old and sick are at risk. And that's been borne out over the last four years. So I thought the remedy in this case was chasing a fly with a sledgehammer, basically. And I started from the beginning. I tried to tell a bunch of people. I tried to rally support. I pulled my friends initially by emails and phone calls and said,

this is crazy, who's with me? Almost no one was with me. It was very disheartening. And so I continued to write, but I didn't reach a big audience. And I'm not very internet savvy. So I didn't know about, I was told later that Reddit had a site, COVID skeptic, I think it was called, where people who are like-minded with me could exchange ideas

and let each other know that, look, 90% of people think this lockdown is a good idea, but we don't. So that was a big regret that I had, that I didn't have enough internet sophistication to reach out to people effectively early on, even though I was writing, like I said, from the first night on it. So that's kind of where I'm coming from. I feel that, you know, I've lived through also several other periods where we've had, oh, the bird flu and the swine flu is very vaunted. It flows, and really nothing extraordinary happens. And I would add this, and we could talk more about this, that all the deaths that supposedly occurred because of the coronavirus or various iterations of that virus were really

eiatrogenic deaths. They were deaths that were induced in hospitals by treatments that were super aggressive. And some would say, and I'm not going to put myself outside of this group. that these deaths were caused deliberately in order to foment panic. Did the foment public support for lockdowns? You know, I used to say, I don't say this anymore because I've had way too many people now. It's just, I used to say that, you know, there's no way anyone saw it coming, you know? Like, how would you, how would you possibly known, right?

and the further I get down this path of talking to people from across the board, and I've talked to some wonderful people, and Mark, it sounds like you're right in the same bag as a lot of them, where they knew immediately this doesn't make any sense. And for all the reasons you're listing off, and then, you know, as it carried on, the insanity that ensued. It just shocks me, I guess, at how well they isolated all the population, so that nobody could find Mark.

Nobody could find all of them, right? Like, it's just, you know, like, they literally broke society into pieces, isolated everybody so they didn't know they were there. And so you couldn't see the dissent. You literally couldn't see it. Now, I mean, obviously that's come in different waves, right? YouTube to Facebook, to Twitter, just to the onslaught of pushing the fact that you're insane and people going along with that. But, you know, here I sit, you know, multiple years later. And I've had way too many conversations to give that any thought anymore that people didn't know.

People knew. A lot of people knew. Which, where I sit, I go, man, like, I wasn't doing my job. And I don't even mean from a podcast standpoint, I mean as a husband and a father, I wasn't doing my job leading into 2020. I was ripe for the picking on going. down that road, except, you know, a couple things went my way, and I never got the shot because I'd never understood it. It stuck to my guns. And that was very difficult. And I sit and listen

to you, and one of the things I admire is that you wrote, and nine of ten people were like, you're insane, maybe even more than nine and ten people. I could just imagine how disheartening that could have been. Yeah, so many years ago, I was a movie usher. And so I had the job of actually, I was the janitor and usher at the same theater. So I would mop the floors in the morning. I would go to classes during the day. And at night, I had my note cards that I made later in the day. And I would sit in the lobby and study my note cards.

But I would go into the theater during the shows. And the movies would stay for about two weeks each and a lot more comedies. And every time I would enter to kind of monitor conduct in the theaters intermittently, a certain scene would come up. And you would know, oh, this scene. is going to get a little laugh followed by a big laugh, right? And so you figured it out on the first night and every audience after that had the exact same reaction. So market research is real and trends are real. And so this is what was dishearting to me at the beginning that I was

reaching out to people. People who's that judgment I trusted, you know, I had known for a long time and who I thought were kind of skeptics. And I'd say, this is a really bad idea. Who who's with me and to get, like you said, less than one out of 10 people agreeing with me told me a very dark thing that I was going to be alone on this for a while. I said, nonetheless, I will not be silent about it. And certainly, and I talked to many, many people about this topic in the last four years, I lost friends over it permanently. And so did other people.

It's a common experience that people have had. and it's difficult but even now so many people don't admit that it was a huge blunder you could say blunder you could say a huge

siop and a huge government top-down operation which is really what I think it was so just on that thought you know I always I always think the matrix one the story about being the usher

that's actually really smart right because you would see the trend every night They're laughing at the same point. Same damn stuff. We're very programmable, you know? Yes. But, you know, my experience with being, you know,

taking out of the matrix, you know, like taking back and just seeing it was, man, it was a tough, it was a tough, it wasn't a tough day. It was a tough season of life. Of like, like, I can't even, I almost, I almost have like a sick feeling in my gut, just thinking back on it.

Tell me what was tough about it for you. Well, to think, to be the guy that thought completely different than everybody, to sit there and try and get through my thoughts, but not to have the background to try and explain it, to be attacked, you're not a doctor. Why do you know? And I'm like, I'm not a doctor.

And I don't know why I know what I know. But I'm like, something's off. And if you can't see that, I don't understand. And then have people in the back doors agree with you, then go to whether it was the, TV camera, the workplace, the job meeting, and do completely opposite of what they thought. And I'm like, I can't, I can't do that. Like, I don't agree with that.

And I'm a very social creature. I think we all are. And I had built an identity about around, imagine walking into a house party. And there's 50 people there. I built an identity around walking in and people wanting to come over and talk to me. And what I found happening, the longer I stuck to my guns, the longer I wouldn't get vaccinated, the longer I held out, the longer I pushed against the narrative, the less people started to come over me. It was very lonely. And, you know, there was there was 14 guys, I think it was, that I worked with. And, you know, all young, healthy guys, young kids, we all sat around coffee every morning. and I was the first guy at the start to go, maybe we shouldn't meet for coffee anymore.

So I removed myself. And I was just like, you know, and then as the first month went on, I'm like, something ain't right. And so I started going back in. And you kind of get the point. I was at first to jump off the ledge and then the first to go,

I'm glad I held on and come back in because something's wrong. And so there's 14 guys. And at the end, there was two of us. And we both left. And there was email sent saying, you got to be vaccinated by this time.

It was, you know, it was just, Nobody would come out and say you have to do this. It's your choice. But if you don't, these are the things that you're going to go on. It got real messy. And it was just extremely lonely. It was lonely from a family standpoint.

It was lonely from your closest friends. It was just lonely. And from a guy who built his reputation or maybe myself identity, Mark, on being somebody who can walk into any situation and meet people and, hey, how are you doing? Such a nice guy. Love having you around. to, we're going to ostracize you from the world. We don't like your thought process.

You're a sliver in my hand and we want you out. Was emotionally, physically, everything, draining. And, you know, I don't talk about this much, but it pushed me to the darkest thoughts I've ever had in my entire life. And I don't talk about it that much because obviously it makes me emotional. But it was a very difficult time. And seeing the world on how it was portrayed and how politicians and everything

just went along and glazed over things and didn't stand up for it. It was just you realize like, holy crap, like how did I miss all this for so long? And then how deep does it go? And it went deep. And it still goes deep. Like, I mean, there's not a time

I don't hop on this podcast. talk to somebody and go, oh, man, there's none. I got to go watch my kids play some sports and kind of get some joy in life back, you know? I don't know. I don't know if that explains it well enough. It's a very good start. I'm also a person who I think it's kind of steady. People describe me or used to describe me as grounded.

And I've never had a suicidal thought in my life. But about four to six weeks into the. this thing. I thought, I thought, even though people were buying it initially, they would kind of chaf at all of the restriction and say, you know what? This is nonsense. The world is not ending. Let's return to normal. But that didn't happen, as we both know. And we could talk a bit length about why that's so. But one night I was going to bed about four or six weeks later, and I said to myself, so frustrated, not only my own situation, but I have three adult children and I saw how it was affecting their lives. And by extension, everyone else in that generation.

And having lived through those years, I knew how important it was to be among people during those years, right? And to be building a career and to be building a family and so forth. And seeing all that thwarted, I was so aggravated. I said one night to myself, when I lay down, I said, you know, if I don't wake up tomorrow, it's okay with me. I literally said that to myself for the first time I'm not going to kill myself, but I just felt so isolated. And, so frustrated that, you know, and I didn't see an end to it at that point. Initially, I did see an end to it. I thought it was, like you said, last a month and then people say, you know what, this is crazy.

But that didn't happen. Another thing, it's a theme that you just sounded, is a big one, that whole idea of discussion, an exchange of ideas. And I have a bunch of friends, or I had a bigger bunch before this all started, and we would talk as friends do about any topic. And I mean any topic, right, from the most personal to the most fun and everything in between. There are no restrictions. When you have a friendship of a certain level, there are restrictions, right?

But when I would bring this up with people, they would do the thing that you said and say, well, you're not a doctor discussion over, right? And that notion is kind of anathema to me because I think doctors have something to offer. but I think doctors are very human. I've seen them make mistakes myself. I've heard about many other mistakes. So to have a credential like that, it doesn't entitle you to find a word on anything.

You're another voice. And your voice, and this is where the litigation part comes in. I did litigation for 30 years. I did trial work. Everything is subject to proof. You say your name is Sean. I'd ask you for a document on that and so on, right? And so all these assertions that were being floating.

it out there were questionable, every single one of them. And yet they were all accepted as gospel. And if you questioned any one of them or if you tried to engage in dialogue with anyone you knew, you were cut off. And what the hell was that? When did that ever happen before? Right. So it was a difficult experience that I had, that you had, that any number of people I've spoken to about this and I've spoken to many have had. Let's just talk about it. well, wait, wait, something doesn't make sense to me. Can we talk about that? Maybe you can explain this to me.

For example, just on a very crude basis, if your mask protects you, why do I need to wear a mask? Right? If your vaccine protects you, why do I need a vaccine? No doubt about that one either, right? But who would say, who would talk to you about that? Nobody. No one, right? That was my experience.

And it's extremely frustrating, kind of mind-boggling, really. Again, given the background that I had with some of these people, I could see maybe a man on the corner engaging some stranger about this. You say, well, I don't owe you anything. But your own friends, your own family, not willing to discuss this with you, right? And I'm a person that can do a rational discussion. I'm a person that asks a lot of questions, just my nature. and I would ask questions

as you can you just answer no or even answer a question for you who could have seen that coming right who could have seen such complete buy-in coming that's that's something I definitely did not foresee you've had a lot of time to sit and

stew on that one you know like when you sit back and stew on where Western society is I can't speak for the rest of the world I'm married to an American she's a Minneapolis girl or Minnesota near Minneapolis.

And so I got to see two sides of the coin, I guess, right, from two different countries' perspectives. And obviously Minnesota is a blue state. And they went their certain way. And here in Canada, man, we went full on insane. So I hear and so disappointed to hear that. Well, I mean, it was interesting. I'm, you know, I forget who said it.

Talked about how the virus didn't cross borders, right? Because certain borders would have one set of rules and another would have no. But don't worry, it doesn't cross the border for some strange reason. Where I sit, Mark, is literally a border city. I think it's like the only one in Canada, right? So I'm half Albertan, half Saskatchewan. So like we had rules that govern us from Saskatchewan, even though you were on the Alberta side, right? And you're like, it's kind of just like this funny place to be.

we had to watch both premieres, talk about the rules that were coming in on each province, and you're like, this is fascinating. Like, it's, I mean, if it wasn't so dark, I mean, it's really fascinating. It'll be a fascinating case study for 40 years from now to watch how two different provinces went back and forth dealing with the same problem, essentially,

which was mass hysteria over something that, you know, I don't know how much co-vindication we need at this point, to know that everything was a sham, right? Like everything. In saying that, when you talk, you know, you're a lawyer, 30 years. Have you ever seen anything like this from a population? Or the more you've thought about it, talked about it, it's a product of the time and how much time it took to make sure the institutions did what they were supposed to do

and that the, you know, the doctors were muzzled and on and on and on and on this goes. What to say about that a lot. I mean, it's also a culture stepping a little further into it, where you could talk to anything about anything with your friends, but we have this internet now that was supposed to have ushered in this free exchange of ideas from all kinds of perspectives, right? And so you would think that at this time, history would be more open to dissent than ever. And yet we became less open to dissent. And of course,

I've thought a lot about this and why so many people bought it. I think a lot of it has to do with death phobia. I think the media, you know, all the legacy media and a lot of the internet media as well just sold one side of the story very aggressively. And so people weren't looking to level two. They weren't looking to find skeptics. They were hearing so much message to lockdown, to Vax, to mask, and all this sort of stuff, that they didn't stop to think for themselves that this doesn't make sense. It should have been so obvious that it didn't make sense. But for some reason, I think the messaging was so unanimous on the other side.

And again, I guess that can be explained by a lot of the media is sponsored, by farm suitable companies. And their reporters were given marching orders or editors, I guess, to sell this as an extreme public health crisis that can only be solved by a vaccine, right? So we'll lock down and mask, et cetera, until we get a vaccine. And then we get that vaccine, farmer will be the hero and it will not only pay dividends in the near term, but for the very long term. Whenever farmer wants the next drug to be approved, whenever a farmer wants,

the government to require various vaccines. They'll get those approvals because damn, that COVID thing was really dark and they saved all of our lives. That's really the underlying narrative that they were selling from the beginning. Is that right there, what keeps you writing?

That thought right at the very end or that thought process of media and government is like, man, those were dark days. We saved a lot of lives. Like, we saved so many lives. And when I hear that, I want to bomb it. I'm like, you destroyed, like, so much. We don't talk nearly enough about it.

I mean, certainly on this side of things, we talk an awful lot about it. But, like, in the public domain, it doesn't get enough airtime. The lives destroyed the harms that came because of, you know, like, you just got to look at some stats and see, like, the opioid. crisis in Canada or or the the mental health crisis like oh I wonder where that came from you wonder where that came from I'll tell you where it came from right like you don't have to be a rocket scientist you know like I'm shocked a bit by myself on your question earlier on and how much emotion is still tied up in me on that I didn't realize like normally mark I don't I don't get that emotional

but I'm like holy crap I'm going to have to think about that I'm going to have to do a little more more writing in my book about that because I didn't realize I had that much tight up in that. That comes from, I don't like the word hate, but I tell you what I learned through COVID. I do not trust government as far as I can throw in my, and the size of government in Canada, getting larger by the day. And I'm close to the word hate when it comes to government because of what they can do and have done and will not, you know, go back and look and go, like, well, we should maybe correct this, because that's not what they're doing. I mean, that would be admitting guilt to all the people still left there from before.

you know. Totally true, Sean. So in this book, this book is in part a chronicle of what happened. So I describe certain events or experiences during the first weeks, the first months, and then, you know, thereafter. But I also tell stories from my youth. And when you asked before how I knew, I think there are a lot of stories and experiences that one has from five years old, from 10 years old, from 15 years old.

that have larger themes involved, right? And just on that topic of, you know, trusting the government and trusting the media, when I was 10 years old, now it was more like 7 years old, I wanted these sneakers they had on TV in the U.S. And they were called PF Flyers. And I was supposed to make you run faster and jump higher. And they showed a diagram of the shoe, you know, cross-section. It's built in action wedge, right? And so like a lot of kids at age, you know, it was, there was status involved with being the fastest kid in the neighborhood, right?

And it was just good for sports and all that. So I wanted those sneakers, man. I really wanted them. So when I regularly, I told my mom, she said, when they wear, your other ones wear out, we'll get you those. So she did. So I had to wait a few months, but I got them. And when I did, I decided I wanted to race that kid was faster than me. And he'd be me again.

And I said, you know what? The action wage didn't make any difference. You know, they lied to me. They said I was going to run faster, but I'm really no faster. I could tell if it wasn't faster. And when he beat me, I knew it wasn't faster. So I said to myself, even from young age, they can put it on TV. It doesn't mean it's true.

And ever since that, I've lived from a very young age. It's like, just because something's on TV or it's written down in a book, it doesn't mean anything about whether it's true or not. It's either true. in of itself or it's not, but having someone repeated doesn't make it true. So there's that. And then also as to why I'm continuing to write,

because of course there's been this sentiment now for the last, what, year and a half plus, oh, COVID's over. You know, stops harping on the theme. You've heard it, I'm sure, right? To me, again, I had an antecedent in my youth about that. And I used to play baseball, you know,

sports but one year we had a town league and our team was pretty good and there was another team that was also pretty good and we were playing them coming up and it had a classmate that was on the opposing team and he was razum you all week oh we're going to beat you guys we're going to beat you guys you know and it was early in the season I didn't know how good we were so we played them I didn't say anything back we played them and we beat them I never heard another word from him about, hey, good game or anything like that, or I was wrong, right? And there's a zillion examples you have in life of this sort of thing, right, where someone makes a prediction, they're sure they're right, and then they're wrong, and then it's as if they never said it

at all. Oh, no, it's like Peter, you know, and denying knowing Christ, like, oh, no, I don't know that guy. I don't know what you're talking about. And that, I think, is what drives me, most of all to continue writing, because the damage here, like you said, is permanent. It needs to be reckoned with. And the people who supported it, whether they're from the top down or from the bottom up, really need to own up to it. And if they won't own up to it and they want to shove me out and certain people have done that, that's up to them.

But there is a cost attached to doing that that will not remain silent and let people walk away from this wreck that they caused as if they had no culpability for it. This is unacceptable to me. And again, like you said, I mean, the story is not over. The consequences are with us and they're going to be with us for indefinitely. There's really no end to it. Financially, socially, economically, psychologically, it's all going to last a very long time. And again, this goes back to the first night.

I in a general way saw all this coming. I said, you know, things are, people live a lot. lives just on the thinnest of margins economically, psychologically, socially, right? You can't mess with that. It's too perilous. It's too fraught with, you know, uncertainty and risk. So to take on such a drastic remedy of hiding people from each other, it's horrible. This like crazy. And to all the people who told me I was crazy, you know, I wasn't a doctor, they're going to be reminded over and over again if they want to spend time with me that the predictions I made came true and the warnings were appropriate.

Well, I mean, what was the meme? You know, the difference between a conspiracy theory and the truth is, you know, I've seen different ones, three months, six months, doesn't matter. At some point, you know, you start to go, maybe I should start listening a couple of those things. They seem to have something there. You know, like, I didn't realize how bad I was. And I don't think I'm great at it yet. I think I'm growing, right?

Like, I look at my life and I go, I just want to continually get better, you know, as I move forward. And it's one of the things COVID taught me is like, man, there's a lot of life left to live, which means there's a lot of things to learn and a lot of things to get better at. And one of the things was I had a really hard time trying to explain why I was doing something, right? And, you know, up until COVID, I would say I was just, I don't know, like gliding through life. I, it doesn't mean I wasn't taking an active part. I just, I didn't really notice the things, you know, Carol Crosson, she's no longer with us. I told the story a couple times.

She was a constitutional lawyer I had on. And I remember. What happened to her, by the way? She just passed away. Nothing to do with COVID, nothing to do with vaccine. She was a homeschooling mom, a constitutional lawyer that I'd had on the podcast early on to talk about the government. Because I was just shocked. You know, I've seen it in your writing, you know, people who believe in the government, right, that they wouldn't want any harm done to us.

I was one of them. Like, the girls going through all these shows, like, and having to really wrestle with some thoughts that have been ingrained there. One of them was the government. And she said, you know, and I remember like yesterday, she's like, I wouldn't have a job. if the government didn't break its own laws. Like, oh, that's a really good point, right? Like, maybe the government doesn't want what's best for Sean. You know, and the more that I've started to stare at it,

the more that that's become very, very evident. And, you know, when you get talking about just the people that, the general population, not the government, not a doctor who's taking money under the table to have whatever drug prescribed, not the, you know, on and on and on goes. Just the everyday average person. You know, I feel for, I feel for a lot of them because I was just like them. The only difference was, is for some reason,

my conscience wouldn't jump over the feeling I had in my stomach towards all this. And I was doing this podcast. And I was starting, I'm like, we got to start talking about it. This is getting insane. I remember thinking, wow, we'll get to 60%, because that's what they'd said in Saskatchewan, I think. 60% vaccine uptake and we'll move on with life. And I was like, okay, sweet. You know, like, I was still skeptical of the entire thing.

We're at this point, we're meeting in the back door or in these barns and everything with people because it wouldn't let you meet in public still, and everybody thought that was insane. Obviously, it was. And then 60 turned in 65. But why 60 now 65? Then 70, then 80, then everybody's got to get it. And if you don't get it, you're not getting treatment. And on this went.

So I eventually started talking to people. And I've said this a lot. If I didn't start the podcast, like change it over. I don't know what it became me. But that didn't make it any easier. The amount of pressure that everyday people just trying to go and work their job had on them was insane. To this day is insane. And I've been trying to figure out why people just, everyday people,

when they hear things, specifically vaccine injured stories, right? Where it is evident. It's like, well, that's vaccine. Like, I don't care what anyone says until it's proven different. Like, it's another myoceritis. It's another blood clot and a young healthy person. It's family members dying unexpectedly with no cause. It's the cancers that are raging everywhere.

And they just slide by it. And it was a lady, and I'm curious your thoughts. A lady two weeks ago, Natasha Gonic for folks listening, I'll probably recall her, it said, oh, it's trauma. All of us went through a serious amount of trauma. And some people just can't come back from it. They just don't know how to work through their thoughts. And to me, that's like trying to unplug from the Matrix.

You've been so hooked up to it for so long. To just yank out and be done is, well, should be. that thought process should be proceeded with extreme caution because it's like probably being a I don't know um an alcoholic and going cold turkey the first day or on some hard drug and coming off of it that's probably something that would resemble what getting off of the injection of like media and the message and you didn't do anything wrong you were great you were a great human being through all of COVID your thoughts mark Oh, man, a million thoughts about that.

A lot of people now are falling, you know, or staying behind this idea that, okay, we made mistakes, but we couldn't have known or we did the best we could. This is a corollary if we couldn't have known. We did the best we could. And there is this underlying, and I'll put it in the U.S., I can't speak for the Canadian experience, but in the U.S., even though a lot of people are skeptical about government,

at least rhetorically, they used to throw it. Oh, the government's a bunch of crooks, right? All of a sudden, that notion went out the window. And everything, every government official said was gospel, was so, was well-intentioned, right? Was thoughtful, was educated. And that was one of the things that was a complete, you know, disconnect from him. I'm thinking, well, two years ago, you were saying all politicians were crooks. And now you're saying they're right to say that everybody should take the shot, right?

how did that change of heart come about, the change of perception, where you had this skepticism about government before, but now you're fully behind the government. Here's another way to look at that. So in my course like the Carol Cross, in the course of my legal career, I worked on behalf of governments and against governments, both. And I'm not saying everyone in Boris and government is in any more close to that, but I can tell you with certainty that people in government, government will lie and they will lie under oaths, right? I've seen it happen. No, I mean, Bill Clinton. For example, right, exactly. Yeah, you don't need to do 30 years of litigation. I know that, I guess, right? Sure. And on and on. So, yeah, I mean, just this notion jumped back

to the beginning of Americans expressing skepticism on the one hand. But the other hand, I think they hold dearly to the notion that the flag is good, both parties, and that they see in the U.S. is a big thing. Olympic athletes, you know, on the metal stand, the flag going up in a national anthem, that stuff resonates with people and the parades and the presidents, you know, all the pomp and circumstance. And going to Washington, D.C., as I did about a month ago, you see this. People come from very far away just marvel at the Capitol building, and to marvel at the support. Supreme Court and the White House and whatever. It's all very symbolic, but I think you really need to strip away symbols and look at reality. And I think people had a hard time doing that.

It still do. They don't want to think their government would lie to them because we have these grand white buildings that have been there and we have, you know, the founding fathers and Abraham Lincoln and their FDR and everyone else in between and D.D.A. today, right? and all this stuff that makes America great. And therefore, everything that the government mediates and mandates is good, right? They shouldn't have this notion, but I think people do have this notion. There's just, for lack of a better term, nationalism or patriotism that's very closely held despite what people say.

Right. So they'll say whether we don't out aloud to sound cool or hip, you know, oh, the government's a bunch of crooks. and they're all bought and whatever. This was an acid test. When your government was telling you one thing, and you knew it wasn't true, right? If you were thinking at all about this stuff, you knew none of it was true.

And yet people believed it. They bought it hook, line, and sinker from beginning to end. And there were still, like you said, a whole lot of people traumatized who can't admit that they were duped. Right? And again, there's another story in here about being duped. And I've been duped in my life.

a few times. Difference between me and a lot of other people is, I'll admit it. Right? And I've been wrong about things too. And again, difference between me and other people is this. I'll admit it. When I was wrong, I said, yeah, I goofed. You know, there's a real reluctance to do that here.

The best you can get out of people is we didn't know we did the best we could. That really doesn't work for me. Yeah, it's, I don't know, you're at six, what do we have, folks, 650, 655 or 656, I forget what number of podcasts you're out. And I started talking COVID roughly 190. 199, I think was Peter McCullough for the first time. Oh, nice. And so you go, so for 400-ish episodes, I've been on this, this, this, this, this, this, this roller coaster ride. the speed train, whatever it is.

And, you know, I go back in, the odd time, I'll go back and listen to an old interview, and it's painful to see where I was at, because I was, you know, it was almost like having one plug still in the matrix of one plug getting fed, you know, different. And I was, I don't know, I, I feel like, you know, if God was pulling you over here, just come over here.

I don't know why you want to keep going over there. I was the sheep that was like, uh-uh, I'm going the opposite way. I'm going that way. I can hear where I want to go. I'm going there. No, no, no. The green grass is sitting right here, man. Just come over here.

And I can go back and listen to myself. And I'm literally fighting what Peter McCullough is saying. Or, you know, the list of doctors, lawyers, professors, all these people, the vaccine injured, everything are telling me. And I'm like, oh, maybe it isn't that bad. You know, maybe I go home, maybe it isn't that bad. And, you know, I finally had to realize, you know, and I forget it was somewhere. Sorry, I'm pulling up a book because it was Regina Wattiel.

Fisman's Fraud. She's a lady from out in Ontario. Okay. Wonderful, wonderful lady. And she sat with me for a couple hours just like this. I forget how long ago this is in the last year. And she's got a PhD in statistics. And she just said the numbers alone made zero sense.

And I'm like, when did you know that? She's like, March 2020. And I had to come to terms with, I got to stop telling myself, people didn't see this. I didn't see it, but a lot of people did. And what they did was they took those people, they used the label, they siphoned them off into their little areas, allowed nobody to hear them. And we all just went hook, line and sinker. You know, like on a cattle farm with steers, right, yearlings, you can see them. There's like, that steer is going to be a problem.

So you get rid of it. because the rest just goes nice and smoothly. And what do you want? You want smooth, right? There they go. Get rid of the problem childs, all of it goes away. You have one problem child. It can cause a whole stir in the entire earth, right?

It just, it can. You can see them. They're all, you know, and I don't mean to make, you know, us all sound like that. But like, in March 2020, there was a ton of people that saw it for exactly what it was. We didn't give them the time of day. And society went craning to where we went.

And now I look, and I look at the world and I go, okay, what are those same people or people like them telling us about where we're at right now? And what am I missing? You know, you sit in New Jersey. And to hop the subjects, just for a second mark, you look at what Donald Trump has happened in, 34 accounts in New York. You got the election coming up. You got like war on the precipitate, like very close. What do you think of everything going on?

Like, you know, one of the things I love about a podcast, we can go wherever we want. When you look at things right now, you go, man, this is concerning. What's concerning to Mark? Well, I'm not as up on the news as most other people might think I am. It's hard to be a content creator and a content consumer at the same time. I'll admit to that. Right. So there's that.

I know generally about what's going on with Trump. I'm still deeply disappointed with Trump. because I feel like he opened the door to the whole thing, that the buck could have stopped there, you know, or even in mid-March 2020. He could have said, I'm not going to bankroll this whole thing. You know, they passed the CARES Act and basically said,

we're going to print a whole lot of money just to smooth this thing over. People can stay home, you know, we'll give them money to do no work. We'll spend all kinds of money on tests that don't work, all kinds of money on a shot that, really was never needed in my estimation, and so on. So I feel like he really opened the door. So I'm not a Trump partisan.

By the same token, I'm not a Trump hater either. I think that some of his policies were good. And I think he's clearly more cognitively locked on than Biden is, for example. And I feel like, you know, he has certain things going for him, but I won't vote for him again, regardless because I'm angry at what he did. And he won't apologize for the vaccine. Instead, he touts it as this great triumph, right? So this is another thing.

He really needs to show some humility for everything that happened at a minimum. And he won't do that. So I don't feel great about him. And I certainly feel less well about Biden. And at this stage, unless something changes, I'll vote for RFK because at least he's not tainted by the COVID misconduct. as the other two are. So there's that. I have been, if you want to broaden the discussion,

I'm like I said, a lot of the damage that's been done over the last four years will resonate. And economically, I think what we've done, and it's just not what I think. I know, this has been the biggest wealth transfer in history from middle class to wealthy people. And I think we've impoverished young people so unfairly during this thing. that that will ripple for a long time. You know, it will cause people not to have families. It will make people unable to buy homes in the U.S., at least for many years it was a very common model

to have individuals own homes or at least paying words just on their own homes, right? Now, there were so few homes for sale in our area, given that interest rates are high, number one. And number two, the prices, have been bid up so high that new people can't get into the market. And so what's happening is people like hedge funds that can buy houses without taking mortgages, they can just pay cash on the barrelhead.

And this is what I understand is happening on a mass scale in the U.S. That individuals used to buy against each other by a house across the street. But they will do that, reach an agreement or be the highest bidder in that transaction. And then some hedge fund will come out. of the blue and I'll bid both of them, right? And just buy the property and rent it. And so we're becoming more and more of a nation of renters, or becoming more and more a nation of people who have some money in the bank that's

really devalued. And it doesn't always manifest itself right away, but it will manifest itself, you know, as time goes by. I think inflation is here to stay. I think that's a real problem. I could go in a lot of different directions from that. too. I'll say this, and this is another thing. It concerns me. I feel like in our culture, we have postponed family creation dysfunctionally for a number of reasons. And I think that

ultimately, the ability you reproduce is bounded by biology. Again, getting back to the biology, and so this notion that a lot of people that would have met over the last few years and moved toward marriage didn't meet because there was not as much interaction. with people. It's going to show itself. And I think that's going to be unfortunate. And a lot of people want to use the safety valve of reproductive technologies, you know, to kind of say, well, we can have kids in our 40s and in 50s and so forth. That route is fraught with peril. That route is, it's expensive. It's eugenic. And ultimately, I think it's kind of, you know, stratifying to the culture.

So I think that's something I think about. I thought about before this, and I think it's another trend that's been worse by everything that's happened. I think there's a lot of ill will that's been division that's been exacerbated over the last four years. So in the U.S., there's been, I think, a lot of polarization politically,

and I think people are too focused on party identity and politics. And another layer has been added to that. I think the disagreements that people have had, the resentment that people feel over what's happened goes even deeper than political party divides. And I'm not sure what the way forward is, particularly when, in my view, the people that got it wrong will never own up to it.

So it would only be partially satisfactory to me if someone were to say, you know, Mark, when I shut you off four years ago, I was wrong. I don't expect that to ever happen. I really don't. And I think it's not just what people did to Mark. It's what people did to a lot of people like Mark. So, you know, we had a lot of big problems before.

I think all those problems have deepened because of what happened. You know, you go back to the family. and you can see the trend getting, I don't know, I'm going to use the word worse, from, you know, you pick your decade to where we are now, you know, just divorce rate and you go is divorce, you know, it's no different than any of the big examples of like right and wrong, write abortion, divorce, and here in Canada made, you know, it's like, should it never ever be there? Well, you could probably make an example of a reason why someone should do X.

But what COVID did, the lockdowns, how many families it pulled apart at the seams, just from one getting the shot one knot, for starters, just for starters, is pretty insane. And, you know, like probably the, you know, fortunate on this side, you know, one of the things that, you know, One of the things that, unbeknownst to the group of us that did it, in 2018, we started to book club. And the book club, you know, used to get teased because I talked about it an awful lot on here. And yet it's probably one of the main reasons I survived COVID. And it started off with, you know, trying to be better husbands, better fathers.

And that idea sounds really corny. Except, you know, if I take a step back from it, it's really, really important to, you know, work on your relationship, work on who you are, and those relationships are cornerstone to the entire fabric of society. And what do we keep doing? We keep eroding them. Like, ah, divorce isn't that bad. I don't know about that. I'd probably argue the complete opposite. Right? Abortion isn't that bad? Well, I'm starting to hear more and more

on the abortion topic of the harms that causes obviously the child, obviously, they're dead. But also the, what happens to the mother. Right? That just doesn't go away. And yet we don't talk about these things. And these things are becoming more and more and more prevalent on top of people having kids later and later and later. And that's a big chunk of what society is. When you just take it down to the building blocks, it's like, man, a woman get married.

have some kids, raise them well. You create a strong community. It's a fun place to live. You go out, you work your job, make some money. Heck, work really hard, make a lot of money. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong, Mark. You know, I don't disagree with any of that.

I don't. Yeah, it's a hard one. It's a hard one. I feel like there's probably a lot of reasons why people are holding back on marriage. down than before I'd probably have to write them down sit and in a quiet place and write them down. I think one of them is

the internet thing has been such a it's such a alluring thing. I mean no matter what your interest is, you can spend hours in front of your computer when I was in my early 20s when you're really kind of

chasing a relationship harder. There weren't a lot have alternatives. And so people, if they were bored on a Friday or Saturday night, we would go to meet other people. They wouldn't be home on their computer doing this thing that was comfortable and safe, right? They'd be out there getting rejected by people, perhaps, or, you know, just. You never forget your, you'd never forget your first rejection. That is a painful, that is a painful, painful memory. Yeah, I mean, it is. It's with all part of the deal, right? I told my

kids this when they entered their 20s, they said, this is a time of breaking the hearts and getting your hearts broken, right? It's just what it is. It's just what the process is for everybody. You can't win if you don't play, right? It's like the same hockey. You got to show up. You know, it's not how many you win. It's how many you show up for, right? So you got to show up and a lot of people just literally aren't showing up now, right? They're just doing the safe thing. I think another thing with the internet is that, you know, he gives you this shopping mentality now for everything, from shoes to cars to whatever. To dating. Excuse me?

To dating. To dating. Then so it extends to dating, right? Swipe left, swipe right. I'm told. I don't know about this. But just his whole idea of, yeah, he's pretty good, but he's not this thing. She's pretty good.

But she ain't doesn't that. Right. Instead of focusing on what someone is looking at, you know, the one thing. that is not, I think you can find someone that is as good as that person without that defect, if you will, or shortcoming. Yeah, the grass is greener on the other side at all times. Sure, totally. And, you know, you know that in life, like you take one job and you leave it for another.

And then you look back and you say, yeah, there were some good things about that prior job that don't exist in this new setting, right? people or expectations or whatever, right? But you had to do that new job as well, it was more money or it was more this or for that, right? So we're all making traits in that sort of way. And, you know, it's a problem. I think young people today feel this pressure to get the perfect fact, you know, mate. And that's a big expectation, I think.

I think of people like my parents they grew up a few blocks from each other they met when they were I think 19 they knew each other but they start dating and they were 19. They were married where they were 21 having kids by the time they were 22 and this was not unusual this was common right

and and by the way they were married for 72 years so this was also common or at least something close to common Right? So, yeah, I think the game is very different now than it used to be. The expectations are different of the institution of marriage, of the spouse, you know, expecting the spouse to be. And I'm kind of taking liberties there by using the words out.

I mean, a lot of people simply aren't getting married. They don't want to make that commitment. They'll have the relationship provisionally. And when it wears out, they'll abandon, right? That was not the expectation 50 years ago. I wonder if, do you think there's a way to reverse course where the expectation maybe you're younger and you have kids? Maybe the expectation is married.

Maybe the expectation is a bunch of, you know, I remember having, I don't remember what podcast it was, but I remember just in the middle of it being like, oh man, am I turned into a traditionalist? Because at one point I was 28 and I didn't want to have kids. until I was 30 because I was like, I just, I want to live life still. And yet if I could go back and talk to that shine, I'd go, you have an idea what you're in for, man. Just go have kids. And how many parents I talk to now, they're like, man, certainly there's some drawbacks to kids, right?

Responsibility on steroids. There's nothing they can prepare you for. But, you know, I always say, you want to fix the world's problems, have them show up to a U7 hockey game in Canada on a Sunday morning. And everybody will have a smile on their face and nobody will be talking about anything bad. Like, everybody just leaves with a full heart after watching these little kids run around. And when you're around that, like, you know, you do these conversations. And then you go around that and you're just like, there ain't nothing better. And yet the way the world talks about these things is, you know, not having kids.

Because I was of the same mindset at one point. You know, I don't want to have kids too soon because once I have, then I can't live life any longer. That's not, that's not the case at all. It's just different. And you don't understand the different until you're there. and then you're like, oh man, this difference is pretty good. But do you think there's any reversing course on that? Hard to say.

I think I think I'm pretty good at describing the present in the near-term future. The longer-term future is harder. So I don't know what to say about that. I think there's going to be a whole lot of disappointing people in their 40s and 50s that are in their 20s and 30s right now. and that maybe that trickles down, that message of disappointment or that image of disappointment that younger people see in their elders will have an influence on them, that they'll say, oh, yeah, my aunt, so-and-so, but yes, she doesn't have any kids and she's not happy,

or my uncle, so-and-so, he has this kind of aimless life in his 40s or 50s and had no one to really, you know, sit around at table with that and eat dinner with that. night, maybe that gets back to people eventually. Hard to say. But in your mind, it takes time. You're not wrong. Yeah, I think so. I think it's kind of a stubborn thing.

I think there's reasons why we're at where we're at. And to kind of envision a swift pivot from that is hard, I think. You know, before I let you out of here, you mentioned 30. 30 years as a lawyer, attorney, correct? Yes. Yes. When you look at the judicial system in, well, we'll stick with the United States, have you been disappointed in it or do you think it's functioning as what it should be?

There's a reason I didn't have four years as an attorney because I'm old enough to have done that by now. But ultimately, I did have some disappointments at the end, one in particular that caused me to leave practice. And the situation is basically this. I represented a bunch of people who didn't have money to carry forward litigation because the litigation is expensive if you charge what attorneys charge, right? In my town, we're being mistreated all in the same way by our municipal government. And so I said to these people, I represent you for free because I think your cause is just. And so I went to the town and I said, look, you're mistreating these people. I've done litigation for third for at that time, 28 years, I guess it was.

And I have some experience. I know the Constitution. I know the statutes. But sit across the table and resolve this. And they wouldn't do it. And I said to them, okay, I'm giving you five more days. If you don't meet with me, I'm filing litigation. I filed litigation.

I won in a case like this because it involved a constitutional issue. I'm supposed to get a fee from the municipal entity, right? Because the notion is, according to U.S. federal law, a town or a state or a nation should not be depriving people of constitutional rights. It's a bedrock sort of set of rights. And so if someone comes to you, as I did to them, it says, let's sit down and talk about this. We'll talk about what you're doing,

and we'll talk about how we can change what you're doing, so it's acceptable to us, right? and because this is related to the Constitution. Okay, so I didn't get the fee that I wanted to get in the case. Ultimately, I didn't want anything. I wanted to sit down with them before this whole thing started, and I invested hundreds of hours in the case to win the case. And I would have gladly done that meeting for free and any series of meetings.

But once you get into litigation, it takes a lot of time and spent a lot of time, you know, late nights working on this case. And I knew I was right, and I figured I would win. But when I applied for my fee, the judge denied me my fee. And I said, well, judge, this is a clear instance where a fee is due. And I said, they hired a private attorney to go against me. I have their billing records because I'm entitled to see them. They got paid $80,000 to lose to me.

I said, so therefore, I ought to be paid at least $80,000 to have beaten them because they are performed them by definition. And so he again denied me the fee. I went to the appeals court and I said, look, You can uphold this denial. But if you do, be mindful that I was 58 at the time. I said, I have a lot of gas left in my tank. And I would have represented a lot more people like this in the future,

given the award that I would be able to kind of use to pay living expenses while I did this, right, from the prior case when I was supposed to get the award. So I said, you can rule against me today. but I want you to be aware that if you do, you're really ruling against a large set of anonymous people right now who I would have represented in future cases. But I won't do that because it won't be disrespected and I won't outperform my opponent who gets paid $80,000

to be paid $10,000, which is the factually be a word that they ended. So I said, what I will do if you don't give me a fair award in this case is I'll go work at Home Depot because at least there I'll get paid what I deserve to be paid. And I said this in court in front of a courtroom full of attorneys and judges, and I meant it. And so I voluntarily walked away from practice, even though I liked what I did. I think I was pretty good at it.

And I deserved to be paid in that case because I said, I can't allow myself in the future to do cases on behalf of people for free. because I have limited expenses like everyone else that's when people that are mistreating people get paid abundantly to lose to me. It's just it's just not acceptable to me. So at the time I was also doing my farming work. And so I was doing two jobs at one time. I just ceased to do my continuing education requirements.

And so I don't practice anymore. So yeah, I was disappointed there. and judges will sometimes disappoint you. I guess maybe that's to be expected. Can I say overall the system doesn't function? I don't know. I mean, I really only know my own direct experiences. I know it can dysfunction and malfunction, I should say.

So for me, that's what it came down to. On a good day, I really liked that kind of work. It was engaging. you felt like you were chasing fairness, which was always, you know, strong sort of goal, an important goal. Some, I don't know. I can't,

I don't think I'll make a larger point about it. I guess everyone who is at least a little bit objective knows that this deal against Trump is politically motivated and, you know, just wrong on that level. I appreciate you. There's many other people that are saying that. I don't need to say it, right? No, I appreciate you hopping on today and doing this, Mark.

I've enjoyed our conversation very much so. Same here, Sean. I appreciate it. And to the extent that you're kind of beating the drum for common cause of me, I appreciate that as well. If people want to find you, where can they go? Obviously, your substack, but let them know and your book as well. Where can they purchase it from? Okay, well, the book, the substack is called Dispatches from a Scamdemic, same as the book.

And the book is available directly from me at this time only. I have an email. Well, I tell you what, why don't you, what we're going to do is you're going to send me all the details, and we'll put them in the show notes. People can scroll down. You can be like, this is where I can get the book from, and if they want to order it, they can. Good, good. And by coincidence, showing my wife and I are going away briefly this summer to Minnesota.

Really? When are you there? We will be there in the second week of August, I think it is. Any chance we can meet up? There's a possibility. There's a possibility. We'll have to stay in touch. Either way, thank you again for doing this.

and I'll get that information for the listener. That way, if they want to read your book or if they want to sign up for your substack, that way they can have links and away they go. That sounds good. Thanks, Sean.