Shaun Newman Podcast - #873 - Tanner Hnidey

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

Tanner is an economist, freelance speaker, social critic and author of his new book “Antichrist 2030”. We discuss parables of Jesus, Alberta’s landlocked problem and G7 in Alberta. To watch the Full Cornerstone Forum: https://open.substack.com/pub/shaunnewmanpodcastGet your voice heard: Text Shaun 587-217-8500Silver Gold Bull Links:Website: https://silvergoldbull.ca/Email: [e-mail] Grahame: [phone]Bow Valley Credit UnionWebsite: www.BowValleycu.comEmail: [e-mail] Use the code “SNP” on all ordersProphet River Links:Website: store.prophetriver.com/Email: [e-mail]

This is Viva Fry. I'm Dr. Peter McCulloch. This is Tom Lomago. This is Chuck Pradnik. This is Alex Krenner. Hey, this is Brad Wall. This is J.P. Sears. Hi, this is Frank Paredi.

This is Tammy Peterson. This is Danielle Smith. This is James Lindsay. Hey, this is Brett Kessel, and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks. Happy Thursday. How's everybody doing today? I've been talking lots about grad because, obviously, I just got to speak this past week at my hometown, Helmond,

and when we're talking silver gold bull and graduation you think well what do you get a grad for uh graduation well and i've been pointing to the fact that the number of ounces of silver need to buy an ounce of gold are now at 30 year highs and you know when you're looking at a gift that might spur on some thoughts how about a you know a couple ounces of silver and i mean if you got the deep pockets maybe maybe an ounce of gold hey that's pretty deep pockets for uh for someone graduating but you never know you're trying to spark a thought or two between the years of a graduate student who's probably thinking about a whole lot more or a whole lot different maybe than money. But regardless, when silver is bargain priced compared to gold, it might be a good idea.

We did it last year. The brothers got together and that's exactly what we did. So I'm throwing that thought out there because Silver Gold Bull says it's a perfect time to protect a portion of your savings with silver. And they have a wide variety of best value silver for every budget. Simply text or email Graham for details. That's all down on the show notes. and he can recommend the best products to meet your investing goals

or maybe if it's for grad he might have some cool ideas there as well. All down on the show notes, you can find all the info for that. When it comes to plumbing and heating here in Lloydminster, there's a company that have been keeping homes, farms, and businesses running smoothly since 2010. That's Guardian plumbing and heating. And one of the things that really sets Guardian apart is how they make life easier for their customers.

They've got technicians on shift from 8 a.m to 8 p.m. every single day, including weekends, and they don't charge you anything extra for evening or weekend service. That means you can go or get the help you need on your schedule without worrying about surprise costs. All you got to do is go to Guardianplumbing.ca. They're protecting their customers from the unexpected through innovative solutions. Ignite distribution.

Their high service supply company based in Waynor and Alberta, specializing in automotive parts and a wide range of additional products, including safety equipment, welding supplies, and fasteners, janitorial. system and janitorial systems. Systems items. Oh, Macana. Got Tanner sitting across from me. I'm all, clammy, I guess. Operating as a Napa Auto Parts

Retailer. Normally I do this, folks, with nobody in the studio. The company has recently expanded in Wainerate's to a location to a, oh man, see what I'm doing here? Expanded its Wainwright location to a 15,000 square foot facility. Just read the prompt here, Sean. Fully stocked to meet customer needs

efficiently. It was found in 2011 and I can't speak higher than a vote of a guy like Shane Stafford, 780842-3433. That guy is one of a kind. He's a gem. And when you're looking for inventory, supplies to make your business run, reach out to Shane. He can get you squared away. Substack, it's free to subscribe to. I've been doing my best to keep up on there.

Me and Tanner today talk about one of the articles I wrote on there. So if at any point in the conversation, I'm like, what the heck are they talking about? Just pause it, go to Substack, look for the Godfather post, and you can read it and see what we're alluding to. I maybe should have just read it, I don't know. Regardless, you can go read it on Substack for free. And there's also options to become paid members and support the podcast, all down in the show notes. The Cornerstone Forum is in the early stages. We're hoping to announce date location here, hopefully soon, but it is coming back in 2026.

We hope you will attend. and the new studio is, well, at some point here in 2025, at some point it is coming, I promise. It is, well, we're picking away at it. That's what we're doing. And I've been reminding people here as we get close to July. One of the things I started last summer was basically taking July off. Now, I don't actually do nothing in July.

There is new content. New content comes out Monday and Wednesday. Thursdays we're doing. something new this year we're going to do throwback Thursdays so we're going to pick out some old interviews and release them again and have a little bit of commentary for myself on my plan is to listen to them as well and go back a little bit in the time capsule and just you know hear an old conversation pull out some cool ones and have a little bit of fun with it so you can expect monday wednesday and then throwback thursdays and then the mashup as well will be there twos will have a new co-host each week

and they'll be continuing on with that but july as i keep reiterating I will be spending some quality time with Mel and the kids looking forward to that. And I hope nobody gives me too hard of a time for taking a little bit of time for the family here in the summer months. Now, before we, well, no, let's get on to that tale of the tape. Today's guest is an economist, freelance speaker, social critic, an author of Kingdom of Kane and his new book, Antichrist 2030. I'm talking about Tanner today. So buckle up. Here we go.

Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Today I'm joined by Tanner in a day. Sir, thanks for hopping back in studio. Oh, my pleasure. How are you? Well, I'm saying before we started, I'm like, I'm waiting for the stress of like pushing so hard on different things. Yeah. I just came from the new studio, right?

And like, it's at a standstill because we're waiting on things. That's frustrating because I thought it was going to be in it the end of April. Then I thought, well, maybe May. Then I thought I'll get one podcast in before I leave in July. None of that is come to fruition, which is frustrating. But I'm trying to temper expectations. Like it looks unreal. Anyone who steps in and I was like, this is going to be something. It's like it is something. I just need to get it there. You know, like we're so close. And, you know, like I just, I love what I do. Yeah. And I never thought I'd ever say, wow, I'm tired. Yeah. You know, and I hate to even admit that on air.

I'm just like, I'm getting to a point where I just want to go spend some time with the wife and kids that isn't racing around chasing them at ball and then over here and then, you know, here and here and here and here. Yeah. And, you know, you got, I'm a big believer in community service. Yeah. And so I just have a little small share in Lloydminster Minor baseball. But, you know, that's an added thing. Yeah. And when you start adding in things, you know, somebody's like, you know, can you come do this?

and I go, no. And they're like, you can't, you can't even, it's just one meeting. I'm like, uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah. You don't understand my schedule right now. Like I feel bad for the text line. I got people texting me.

And normally I'm pretty prompt. Yeah, I like to think I still am. But at times I just, I just turn the phone off and I just walk away. And I'm like, I just, I just don't have time to give my mind somewhere else. I need to be where I'm at, present, you know, where the feet are at, so to speak, and get through some things here in the next couple weeks. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know.

How's Tanner doing? Busy. Still like you. Good. It's been excellent. What's new and exciting? Well, Carney's election means there's so much going on for, you know, individuals in my line of work. Released my new book last month.

That's been going well, too. It's sitting on my nightstand. I got that. It's literally there. I haven't opened the page. I don't blame you. And I told myself last night, you should sit down and you should read a chapter. What a horrible thing for a host of a man.

It's sitting there. It's coming with me when we go because it's going to be one of the things I read, hopefully, over a course of a month. fantastic. I'm looking forward to it. Absolutely. You know, it's, yeah, put out a lawn chair in the sun. Bask in the sunshine and read the book. See what it like. And read Antichrist. Yeah, read Antichrist 2030. Oh, it was fun to write. It was a pleasure to write. Yeah, it's writing so much fun because it exercises the mind,

which is, you know, it allows you to, it opens up your mind to new, you know, realities you might not have thought of before. But all that to say, with Carney's election, yeah, it's been busy. We've been touring all over the place, talking about this, that, the other thing, doing a lot of work behind the scenes, you know, looking at, oh, just all that's happening. It's fascinating. I haven't seen a movement like this in Alberta, not that's been this protracted, you know, and has this much momentum in a long, long time. Well, probably in your lifetime, wouldn't you agree? Yeah, no, I'd agree. Absolutely. Like, I, you know, to get 100 people out to, you know, in the middle of COVID was certainly a time where, that'd probably be the time in

our lifetime where you saw a movement happening behind closed doors because it wasn't allowed to be talked about for the most part, right? It squeak out on the social media every once in a while. Yeah. But it was literally against the law, what was going on then. But you saw it. You're like, oh, man, there is a ton of people that are upset. And now, like, I don't know, how many town halls have you guys done now?

Oh, quite a few. Like, over the last year we've done, between last year and this year, probably close to 100 for me. Other guys have done more, you know, but that's what my number is at. And they've been excellent. Like with the last, you know, four years, you do those events in 2020 or 2021. And you found that they were, they were excellent, but, you know, they had high highs and low lows. And it was very, the number of people that attended those meetings was subjective.

It was just always moving. It was like a big wave that started high, went low, et cetera. Whereas this one so far has just been increasing, like continually increasing. The momentum hasn't really slowed. It's maybe not quite as, you know, passionate as it was the day after Carney's election. Sure. to be expected. But it's not as though the movement is getting smaller.

No, I think it's the opposite. So I'm just, I'm so encouraged and excited to see what will happen here. You know, before we get into anything, Alberta independence, you mentioned writing. Yeah. And I forget the word you used, but you got to read before it ever got released on substack. You read my godfather's thought.

Yeah, fantastic. I thought it was profound. And then, you know, we had comments back and forth about it. because you're dead on the mark. You have this problem that's really existed since the dawn of man, or at least the fall of man, where men are quick to go to extremes, you know, regarding qualities about themselves. So you have some men who are total brutes, and they're eager to, you know, stand up for Ruts right, but they're so passionate about it and only that that they will go to, you know, they'll do terrible things to defend what is right. And on the other hand,

you have men who, in the name of pacifism and peace, won't defend anything at all. They'll just sit there and do nothing to try and uphold their moral code, and that leads to devastating outcomes as well. And so you and I had this wonderful dialogue about what's required in order for man to, on the one hand, defend his home and, you know, be a passionate defender of what he believes in, while at the same time not becoming a monster who's willing to do anything and everything to see that vision achieved. And our conclusion was, in a sort of paradox, man has to be an extreme of both things. Okay, so you look at King Arthur, you know, and look at Sir Lancelot, right? This is an old C.S. Lewis writing. And he goes, you look at him and you go, in him was a man who was, you know, one of the most fiercest knights to ever put a spear in his enemies. On the other hand, he was a real gentleman when it came to dining with ladies in halls.

And, you know, he was a gentleman to be around. and he goes, Lewis goes, in Lancelot, you have these two extremes that exist at the same time. It's not as though Lancelot's 90% ferocious and 10% meek. No, no, he's 100% ferocious and 100% meek at the same time, which allows him to live this life of absolute balance, right? Nowhere is that so clearly proven as in Christ. Like you look at the left and progressives. And they so often, in this modern age, paint Jesus to be,

this neutered hippie who doesn't believe in anything particular and just sits on the ground and draws circles and says kumbaya and then they accuse us when we uh you know make moves for trying to better the nation or better our own families of not acting christ-like because you know we are trying to impress our will upon the political system or we're trying to impress our will elsewhere and that just isn't very christ like we're told but when you actually read the scriptures for what they are and when you read the Gospels for what they are, you see that that paradox of being totally, you know, tenacious and totally peaceful at the same time exists perfectly in Jesus.

Nowhere does it exist so perfectly as it does in Christ. Turns over temple tables on the one hand. On the other hand, he says, let the little children come to me. It's wonderful that I should be able to teach them. You know, he deals with the Pharisees with a cutting proficiency and a cutting edge that no one else is able to do while at the same time weeping, you know, over Lazarus and over Jerusalem. So I think that's the solution to that.

I thought it was just an excellent article that you wrote. Well, I appreciate that. That means a lot coming from you because I read you. I told you before I, the cool thing about Tanner folks is he's never watched the godfather. So I gave it to him and I'm like, this should be an interesting exercise because we'll see if I painted a good enough picture for him to follow along with what with a movie, you know, that I'm, you know, taking a thought from. And I'm like, it was a real, you always wonder, you know, not that I'm, not that we're in this realm,

but you always wonder what C.S. Lewis and Tolkien's correspondence was like. Yeah. Can you imagine? How much fun that would be. I know. And for the first time of my life, you know, I'm learning things about building, right, building a studio and watching something, an idea come together is, well, I look forward to the blue collar round tables that happen in there.

Yeah. Because I think if you've never built anything, oh, sure, maybe I built a table or, You know, like little projects, I think back to high school. But like, this is like, I've had this large idea. It has been messing with me for years. And to see it finally come together is something that I almost think every person should experience. Yeah.

Right? Because it's a very profound experience to see your idea come, like, right in front of. Oh, man. It's frustrating that it doesn't go at the pace you want it to. And there's lots of questions. I'm like, I don't freaking know. And when it came to this, I don't position myself as a writer. and I got to be careful there because, you know, like at the same time, I'm not saying I can't write.

I just, you know, I don't put in the effort day after day to do it, but I, you know, I watched Godfather. And it just hit me like a ton of bricks. Obviously, because I keep talking about it, right? Like, I just can't get over how much I've been talking about it. Yeah. I guess it's another stage in the old podcast where you get hit by something. You're like, I just, I don't know. I watched it.

I tried leaving it alone for a bit. Then I was like, well, maybe I should draw it down some notes. I draw it down some notes. They didn't make any sense. So then, you know, like, I had to. wrestle with that and on and on and on. Yeah. And it just,

once it was out of my head, it just felt good. There, I'm going to publish this. Well, I gave it to you and then you came back with some thoughts. I'm like, no, now am I going to have to rewrite? I'm like, no, you're going to publish this? Yeah. Because it's just got to get out of your head.

It's just got to get somewhere where it can be visible. And if nothing happens with it, so be it. Life goes on. But it's out of your head. And you got to, I think, for me, concisely write down what I was trying to get across. Yeah.

In a way that I probably have never done before, and that's a very, I don't know, moving experience in its own right. It is. And it's like, yeah, it's a critical experience. There are two things. I really believe that a man needs in order to think. Three things. First, he needs a solid foundation of virtue and ethics, you know,

and then second, he needs to read and he needs to write. I think those are the big three things that is required for a man to properly think. you know, through reading, he gets new ideas that really aren't new, but, you know, they're new to him. And then through writing, he recognizes just how difficult it is to express those thoughts in a way that is understandable for everyone else. It is hard to write because what's clear to you, you realize when you put on a page is clear to nobody else. You know, your thoughts are so much more scattered than we might initially think that they are. And so the process of writing says, wait a second, you have to be way more logical than you expect. to try and present your ideas in a way that makes people understand them.

So, you know, we can change the world as Christ wants us to do. So, yeah, it's a fantastic exercise. You can't write enough. Well, the thing that reminds me of is if you've been a high-end athlete and then you go out to a practice and try and teach what's in your brain, you're like, oh, crap. You know, I always think of Wayne Grexie was, what was he, folks, a coach for Phoenix?

Yeah, for a year? Yeah, it wasn't very long. It wasn't very long. Yeah. And they only say, well, the greatest players have a hard time conveying what they just intuitively know. They just know what, and then they got to try and break that down, break down the process. To athletes or kids or take your pick on the spectrum of where an athlete's at. And that's very difficult.

Yeah. Well, if you've never had to have somebody break it down so you can learn it that way, it's almost impossible for you to do, you know, you've got to really work at it to get to where you could do that the opposite way. Absolutely. That's what writing is to me. Absolutely. And in fairness to it, though, some of the best podcast guests are writers, and what I find so fascinating about them is if they can coherently write out a thought, it doesn't have to be 100 pages long.

It can be two pages long. It's coherent. I'm like, they're going to be a good guest. Because they have control of their thoughts in a way that they can convey it on a piece of paper to me. Yeah. And I read it and I'm like, that makes sense. Oh, yeah.

That makes like a lot of sense. We can do a two-hour podcast on that. Well, heck, they make movies off that. Yeah, yeah. Writing something short is so much more difficult than writing something long. It's a great Mark Twain quote where he's like, I didn't have time to write you a short letter, so I wrote you a long one.

That's so true. It's the same with preachers. One of my biggest pet peeves is when a preacher gets up on stage and he doesn't know what he's talking about, or he doesn't know what he's going to talk about before he gets up there. He doesn't know what he's talking about when he's up there, and he doesn't know what he's talked about after he's off the stage. And you see that a lot where preachers and just speakers in general

will ramble and ramble and ramble and rambolence 40 minutes, 45 minutes, 50 minutes. And it's not because they've prepared a speech properly. It's the opposite. If they had prepared it properly, they'd be concise and tight and short. It's when you're unprepared that you start to ramble. You don't know where your thoughts are going. And it leads to a disinterest in the audience. So I think you're dead on the mark.

When you see a writer or you want to interview someone who is able to put all of their thoughts down on a page in a way that you can understand and that I can understand, Yeah, you've got a guy who can, or a woman who can think with precision. And so it makes for a good guest. The only exception to that rule that I've witnessed in my lifetime, but then I think that and I'm going to contradict myself slightly. So I watched Jordan Peterson before he had his rise to where he currently is at. I remember seeing him in an Eminton hotel and I'm kicking myself back then

that I didn't go and approach him about a podcast, right? Would have been the easiest thing to do. Regardless, he'd get up there and didn't have something planned out. And he could wrestle with a thought on stage. and it was almost mesmerizing the watch. Like it was really powerful. Now, in saying that, I'd be lying if you go, well, he'd written a book before that.

He'd just written a book about what he's wrestling with. So he'd had a ton of time on putting down his thoughts. Sure. So now he's just mulling it over with a live audience, which is, in essence, a little bit different than just walking up and winging it. Yeah, it is. Totally different.

And it's, yeah, in those cases, it's a sort of dance. And, you know, yeah, you're right. His thoughts are already in his mind. He's just portraying what he's thinking to the audience. And there is a sort of mesmerizing aspect to it. Now, it's different than Christ in the Gospels, right? Where Christ just says, here it is. This is the truth.

And if people ask a question, he usually replies with a question, which is also mesmerizing. But yeah, on the whole, I think it's better to have a shorter, I'd much prefer to speak for 10 minutes than for 20, you know. Even if the content is the same, the shorter the speech tends to be the more interested, the audience is and the more they retain. It's just the way we are, especially in the social media age where everything's quick, quick, quick. Short story. I bet you when they wrote the Bible, a word that they did not associate being written in there by this Yahoo was Godfather. Ah. I read the proverb, I read proverbs every morning. Yeah. And, you know, I sit down, I have a coffee and pray and read the, read proverbs first, whichever, you know, corresponding to the day of the month.

Yeah. And I read a proverb, I think it was yesterday. I should look it up quickly. I do have that ability. And I'm like, put a little, like, wait a second, Godfather. And then I started laughing. I'm like, I bet you would Tatter gave me his Bible. He was, you know, it's like, yeah, mark it up.

Yep. I'm like, Godfather thought. Like right here. I almost, I underline, I'm like, I'm going to have to go back and revisit my thought. Yeah. Add in the proverb because it's right there. Yeah. Oh, I totally.

Yeah. Why not? And like, that's the way to read the scripture, too. What I mean is you have to study it. I think we too often are quick, if we are quick, to read the scripture and be done with it. But that really isn't what's commanded of us. Instead, we're supposed to meditate on it. Like, it takes work to search the scriptures and to try and discover what is, you know, being said in them. There's not, like, you know, the gospel itself is simple. Believe. That's it. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. But the actual wisdom that's imparted in the scriptures and the truths that are embedded in it are so rich. that you've got to sit and think about those things for a long time. Well, okay, so I chuckle up myself because I put, okay, so I lost this Bible. I lost it, I couldn't find it, couldn't find it. As soon as you gave me the new Bible, I found this Bible. I'm like, okay, well, this Bible is going in the studio. So when I need to look something up, folks, here it is.

So here is the thought that struck me as the godfather in what I wrote about. Proverbs 1632. Okay. He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty. Yeah. And he who rules his spirit than he who captures a city. Yeah, totally. And, you know, what's so fascinating is that sort of wisdom, you know, is repeated by like Marcus Aurelius and all those things.

You know, bring the self under control and all that jazz. And it's ultimately fulfilled in Christ, of course, right? All those proverbs, they all point to Jesus. Like, they're brilliant wisdom for you and I today. but it all points to Christ. No one is good except God alone. So you and I are supposed to bring the body under control, right? That's what we're supposed to do.

But we discover that we can't. We try our best, you know. Lots of guys try very hard, but no matter what we do, the flesh is still active. The flesh is still active. And it has its own desires. And even if we don't want to lie, we lie. And even if we don't want to, I don't know, covet our neighbor's goods,

we covet our neighbor's goods. And we do those things we don't want to do. And so we're in the state of what are we going to do until Christ shows up. And then he says, yeah, you're right. You actually can't bring those things under control. You need me to do it. Right? Do you ever read the teachings there of Christ where he's like,

if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off? Cut it off. I cause you to sin, gouge it out. What do you think the meaning of that teaching is? I've thought about that one for a long time. You're asking me on the spot. You better believe it. Absolutely.

I don't get to ask people questions that often in interviews because you have the one getting interviewed. But this is, it's a tough one. So Christ says, your hand's causing you to sin, chop it off. Eyes causing you to sin, gouge it out. Foot's causing you to sin. Chop that off too. Well, I would say he's not telling you to chop your hand off. You're right.

He probably isn't telling you to mutilate your body. You're right. Correct. So I would say, you know, off the top of my head, thinking about it quickly, I would say you have to address it. You have to address the problem. Okay. Okay. One way to your hand's giving you issues, chop it off is addressing the problem.

Yeah, totally. So I would say, you know, if you're having problems in your life. Yeah. And he's pointing to very, to, you know, the eye that wanders or the hand that steals. Yeah. Go address the problem. Right. And by doing that, you can chop off your hand.

Totally. So then here's what Christ would ask next. He would say, what is the ultimate problem? What's the source of the problem? Marks would go, it's the outside world. The source of the problem are the capitalists. They're oppressing you. So they've got to be cut off.

You know, or I don't know, someone else would say it's, you know, your neighbor or it's whatever else. It's what's being taught in school. All those are the problems. But Christ would say maybe not quite. What is the source of the problem? It's not the hand, you know, it's not the eye. The eye looks, but it's not the source. Christ says you've got to go here.

The source of the problem is the heart. So now we take the teaching to the extreme. The hand causes you to sin, cut it off. the eye causes you to sin, gouge it out. Foot causes you to sin, cut it off. Mutilate the body, no. Heart causes you to sin, which it does. This is what he says in Mark 721

for from within come evil things. Cut it out. But if you cut out your heart, you're dead. You're dead. So what are we going to do? And Christ goes, actually, you do have to die. You have to die and be born again. That's the teaching. He wants you to get to the place where you go, the heart is what's causing me to sin. You already knew the answer.

Totally. So if the, If the heart causes you to sin, cut it out. Cut it out and, you know, replace it with Christ's heart. Be born again. But this is, and you see, this is the, this is the wisdom of Jesus asking all these questions. And, you know, speaking in a sort of ways, he recognizes that for you and I to understand these things, we've got to work it out for ourselves. And one of the best ways to work it out is to write.

Well, and to read. And to read. So, like, if you don't, I go back to Frank Pretti all the time. because, you know, I can't remember what I said to him after we were done a podcast, but we sat in chat it for an hour. It was really enjoyable. Yeah. And I must have said, you know, I'm racing to find the answer or whatever the word was. And he slowed me now.

He said, it isn't a race. It's a journey. So just don't let anybody dictate how fast you go. Yeah. Just be methodical. Yeah. And I try and carry that every morning of like, it isn't about getting through the book. It's about being in the book.

Yep. I was reading this morning, John. Yeah, good book. Finally got to John. What a book. Man, I tell you, it is my favorite. Absolutely. And I've read it all, I don't know, we've been, you know, me and you now have been chatting for probably two years.

Sure. So when I first was, you know, wrestling with all these things, man, that had to have been two years ago. Yeah. But it's funny. Now I'm thinking about it's 20, 25, maybe it's three years. It doesn't matter. Read this morning, you know, because like one of the things that always shocks me is like, how can you reread something and just be like, how did I miss that?

Oh, yeah. And one of the things you were talking about Jesus flipping the table is, is him getting the, and now, forgive me, I can't remember if it's Samaritan or what, but it's a guy laying by the pool. Yeah, and Basseta. And he's waiting for the water to bubble and then he's got to get there, but he can never get there. This is John 6, yes. And Jesus just goes, get up, pick up your mat and walk type thing. Totally.

and on the Sabbath they're not even allowed to carry their mat right so I mean I don't know about you but I find that is the most ridiculous it's the most ridiculous thing right you're not allowed to carry your mat of course yeah okay yeah I'm like what a badass Jesus right yeah because he can't find him right

no disappears but then Jesus goes back to him later on the story and they and he gets outed as the guy who told him yeah right and he's telling all these lawmakers yeah this is the most ridiculous rule in the world. Absolutely. And you know it is. Yep. And yet you're so scared of the laws that you won't do it as right. Yeah, that's exactly right. There is nothing more damaging to Christianity than legalism. I hate, and I use that word carefully, I hate legalism in all its forms. There is nothing worse for a new believer, a seasoned believer, a veteran believer,

you know, in the middle believer than legalism. It is devastating because you, it's the complete opposite of what the gospel of Christ is. What is the gospel of Christ? It's John is, like John is is the gospel of gospels. And the gospel of Christ is believe. That's it. It's not believe and, it's not believe and do. It's not believe and be good. It's believe. That's it. So when the Pharisees oppress to people, and that is what they were doing with all of these hard and heavy laws, they do not, you know, create an atmosphere of freedom, but one of imprimise. really like you and I were talking the other day about you know the big laws the big laws versus the little laws so the big laws are there to give freedom which is true the little laws are there to restrict the freedom and all of these ridiculous laws that the Pharisees had implemented were there to restrict freedom so that it was totally impossible for the people to experience the freedom that God wanted them to experience it's what's so unique and brilliant about Christ is his complete denial of any sort of legalism whatsoever How are we supposed to measure good works?

You know, so you have two men. One man has never touched a drop of alcohol in day in his life. The other man wasn't alcoholic, you know. And the one man looks at the other and says, you're having a beer. I'm not super sure about that. It doesn't look so good. But what he doesn't know is that this man used to drink 12 beers a day,

and now he's down to one. You know, so how are we supposed to? So in that case, it's like, wow, wonderful. So how are we supposed to measure good work? The answer is, you know, from a subjective standpoint here, you and I, we can't. Legalism is nonsense. Yeah, it's all about its belief and it's grace. Those are the two big believe in grace.

That's it. So, yeah, I think your point is well taken. Well, I always come back to, you know, there's a lot going on in the world. And you're like trying not to be judgmental. Yeah, right? Like really trying. Yeah. Trying to see things from all angles and everything.

and, you know, like, the story of the prodigal son. Yeah. What a story. Is, you know, you've got to sit and stew on that one for a bit. You do? Gives his kid, he's got two sons, gives one basically the inheritance, he goes and just squanders it. Totally. Does everything you wouldn't want a son to do.

Yeah. Right? And then you got the, you got the good son, the good son, who stays, works, does everything right. Yeah. And who do they throw the party for? Yeah. The kid who comes back. What a story.

And that's almost you goes drinking 12 beers all the way back to one. Yeah. I mean, that's a mirror image, if you would, in a certain sense. Yeah. And you got to think, like, he doesn't make it easy, does he? No. Like, you've really got to think on that. Yeah.

And totally. There are two big points. Like, the first one there is that the prodigal son never stops being the sun. He's still the son. He's just the son who is lost his way. He's not experiencing the blessing that comes with being. with the father. So that's a wonderful proof or guarantee of our salvation. Even if we, you know, the Christian term is backslide, you know, we do what we're not supposed to and get involved at the

wrong crowd. It's not as though our salvation is in jeopardy, right? Because it's Christ who saves us and not our good works that save ourselves. I've been wondering this. Is there anything you can do on this planet? Yeah. Where you cannot be saved. There's one unforgivable sin, says Jesus. and the unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. That is the unforgivable sin is rejecting Christ as your Savior. That's it. That's the only unforgivable sin is saying, I do not need nor want nor believe in Christ as my Savior.

I'll do it myself. Or I don't need to be saved at all. That's the one unforgivable sin. But if you said that and then came back like a year later and said, you know what, I was completely wrong. Oh, yeah. Oh, totally. we're talking about here at death, totally, when you come before the judgment.

Now, Christians aren't judged in the way that non-Christians are judged. But yeah, that's right. So if I today said, I wasn't a Christian and I said I have no need for Christ, and then a year later I say, I do have a need for Christ. That's totally, you're saved, absolutely. But, yeah, when Hebrews 927, right, it's appointed unto man wants to die, and after this to judgment, when that day comes, if you've rejected Jesus, that's the unforgivable sin.

So then people say, well, you know, I'm not so sure about that. A lot of tyrants in the world have done a lot of bad things, you know, very wicked things, things far more evil than I've ever done, surely. And this is in part why Christ gives the parable of the workers. So the parable goes, there's a man who owns like a vineyard. One man comes in the morning and, you know, the vineyard owner says, I want you to harvest my grapes and, you know, I'll give you a denarius, whatever it is, for the day. Man goes great.

another man shows up a couple hours later the vineyard owner says I'd like you to harvest my grapes today pay you a denarius guy says great someone comes at lunch vineyard owner gives the same offer and someone comes you know

like an hour before they're going to close the shop or close the vineyard and the owner says I'll give you a denarius if you work for the hour days over the men come from their wages and they see that all the wages are the same I'll get one denarius or whatever the amount is. And the man who starts work early says, what's this? This isn't very fair.

You know, how could you? What are you talking? You know, how am I getting paid the same as the guy who's getting paid at three o'clock in the afternoon, or who starts at three o'clock in the afternoon? Now, when I was younger, I thought this was an economic lesson because I was foolish, you know, and I said, well, this must be a demonstration that the business owner can pay whatever he wants to his workers. And that's the way free market capitalism ought to work. But of course, that's not the not really at all, right? The teaching instead is, don't worry about the other man. Worry about yourself and your own salvation. Don't worry about the guy who you think is way worse than you are. Don't worry about your neighbor that irritates you. Let's focus on the sin

which is within us first so that we can be saved from that, you know? It's like, yeah, maybe the one guy beside you sins two more times, you know, than you when you guys live together. Okay. But the question is who are we to have any salvation at all whatsoever, right? All I ought to focus on for right now is making sure my spirit is right with the Lord Jesus. And then that branches out and I go out into the world and I'm eager to tell others about it. So it's a teaching more on the nature of salvation, which is it's a joy and a privilege to see that even those who have not served the Lord or believed in him as long as others have are able to inherit the same treasure, which is heaven. It's exciting. It's a

fascinating story. Chew on that one. Yeah. I don't even know, like, I was going to say in the Bible that you gave me, in the back of it, or in the front of it, one or the two, it actually breaks down the coins. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, that's, that's really interesting. Yeah. Because I always wanted to know what Jesus got sold out for, right? Yeah. It wasn't much. It wasn't much. No. When you, when you think about it, it wasn't much. Yeah. And I went looking and, of course, in the, in the Bible lab here, it isn't there, which is too bad, because I really like those little details. So do I. And you were talking about John being, you know, the greatest of the gospel.

Yeah. And it's funny, as soon as I learned out Luke was a physician by trade and gave that up. And, yeah. But he has this almost journalistic writing ability. He does. It changed that entire thing for me. Yeah. It's just like, give it a whole new lens.

Yeah. It's funny when you add in a few details. Yeah. How, oh, that's interesting. I didn't know that. Yeah. And those little, I didn't know that, give a story a whole new meaning.

Yeah. And one of the things about, well, the different stories Jesus tells. Yeah. Sometimes you can understand where he's like, are you guys so dense? No, I know. Yeah, I'm sitting right here. I'm pretty dense.

I'm pretty dense, you know? Absolutely. Yeah, he's clear about it. And one of my favorites is, it's in John. And, oh, shoot, I wish I remembered the verse. But anyways, I think, it's in John 5, but I don't, or maybe John 8, either whatever, either way. Christ is talking to the Pharisees and he's like, you guys search the scriptures because you think that in them you have life,

then he goes, here I am, right before you, the fulfillment of the scriptures, and you won't come to me to have life. So he's like, yeah, are you this? Are you kidding me? Really? And yet, you know, here we are. These naturally blinded creatures who can't recognize the ultimate truth for what it is. and it's not until, you know, we see the truth through the Scripture and the Holy Spirit and all of those great helpers that open up our eyes that we're able to see just who Jesus is. It's like the stranger on the road to Emmaus, you know. That's a good story to read to. It's about two men who knew Jesus after his crucifixion and resurrection.

They don't know he's been resurrected yet. They're walking and here comes Jesus and they don't recognize him until Jesus chooses to reveal himself. How is that possible? but it's just a picture of what it's like is unbelievers to believers. I'm like, do I switch over to Alberta independence? I'm like, no. We're having a good convo. These are always so fun.

You can't get enough of them. It's funny. I do have some things I wanted to bring up with you. Oh, yeah. But it's funny. And, you know, like I was reading this morning. Hmm. But can I find it?

That's a good question. Yeah, it's a deep book. It's a rich book. To say it's a rich book is the understatement of understatements. You know, you'll never read another one that every time you read it has new truths. It's just, it's so clearly a living book compared to all other works, no matter how great they are. There is nothing that that is even close to the scripture in terms of its inerrancy, in terms of its power, in terms of its revelation. It alone is, yeah, the book of books. I don't know where it is because this book reads a little different. But it was talking about basically, I'm going to butcher the words here, Tanner. But like a prudent tongue speaks for the Lord, something like that. And I'm like, I've actually experienced that multiple times.

And I didn't know what I was experiencing, but I remember this thinking like, holy crap. I think I'm, you know, people talk about hearing the voice. Yeah, yeah. I don't get that. Yeah. Well, I get it. Like, I can conceptualize it.

Yeah. I'm like, in my life, I didn't. Yeah. No, I never hear an audible voice either. But in fairness, on that, I've had multiple instances where I'm like, I think God just spoke to me. Sure. And I'm like, yeah. Now I got to, I can either act like I heard that or didn't hear that.

Sure. And, you know, I don't know if this is sharing too much, but, you know, I haven't been drinking for now. It's closing in on seven months. Yeah. And the whole I've been wrestling with this I think I've told you this since 2018 Just to take a year just to see what happened

Totally And You know I've been waiting for that like cattle prod You know because sometimes you just need it Yeah yeah You just need the whoop Yeah And it happened

And I'm like Oh boy I think I just heard that correctly Yeah And that's where it comes from Is I'm like I think God just told me it's time. You should

really try this for a year. You've been talking about it. It's time to either do the deed or not. And I don't know what he was, you know, like only he can see the different outcomes of not doing it versus doing it and where that leads you. Of course. But like, I read it in proffered. I'm sure it's Proverbs today. I'm sure it's Proverbs 17, somewhere

in there. And I was just, I'm like, there it is again. It's like sitting right there in Proverbs. I'm like Like I'm going to be a proponent of anything on this podcast, of something easy to do. Just get up in the morning and read Proverbs. Oh, yeah. Once a day. It sounds so easy and silly all at the same time. That's it?

I don't know. I don't know what it does for you. For me, though, there's so much wisdom packed in like two and a half minutes of reading, three minutes of reading, your slow reading, okay, five? Yeah. Not over five. It doesn't take long. Nope.

Take a marker with your pan or whatever you want to do. Because in the last little bit, it's like, it's also cool to go back. You know, you go through a month. you revisit the same thoughts. What the heck did I underline that? Absolutely. No, I don't know. Yeah.

I guess I can't speak highly enough about what men like yourself and others have done on this side. That's sweet. Because you bring in, I mean, don't get me wrong. People have heard me talk about, we just had Tom Luongo on. So, like, guys like that have had their own impact on me. Yeah. But when it comes to the spiritual side of life, you know, you're right up there with about four other individuals. Appreciate it.

That they say things, you know, like, I don't make any sense. Like the first time me and you had a Christmas episode. Yeah. I was just telling Kenny this. You said something afterwards that I did not believe. I'm like, there's no way. And it was that Jesus had told, was it Peter? Yeah.

Devil get behind me. Yeah, yeah. Or Satan. Satan, Satan get behind me. Yeah. I'm like, there's no way he said that. You looked at me dead face. Like, yeah.

he did. I'm like, sure, sure. And I don't know if you saw it on my face that day. But that day, after we left here, I went home, I grabbed the Bible, you can just see, I'm flipping, I'm flipping right, Tanner, right, right, that's what he said. And I read it, and I'm like, holy crap. Yeah. And I've wrestled with that thought. So have I. Because I'm like, okay, Jesus, son of God, has his 12 disciples. Yeah. And they still get infiltrated? Are you kidding me? Absolutely. What chance does a muck like me have in a schmuck like me, sorry, have in getting through this world if the son of God, with his 12 handpicked disciples, they're witnessing everything he can do. He gets betrayed by one of them for not a bunch of money,

as we pointed out. About 600 bucks. And at one point he says, Satan get behind me. Can you imagine that rebuke being, it's Peter, right? It's Peter. Peter being like, here. I know. And the kicker is Peter thinks he's doing the right thing. Correct. In that sense. Like he's convinced that, yeah, I'm here to defend my Lord. Totally. And yet still, he's given this sharp and strong rebuke by Christ. So then, yeah, what hope do we have you and I of getting through the world? Unscathed is the wrong word, but kind of. But there's a difference, right?

The difference between those days, those old, yeah, sure, old and ancient days versus now is that you and I, we as Christians, are indelved with the Holy Spirit. This didn't happen until Pennycost, until after Christ had ascended up into heaven. And now we're given this, yeah, Holy Spirit, who is the third person of the Trinity to guide us and convict us and work through us to accomplish the will of Almighty. It's a totally different relationship than what was previously had before that pennycost, you know, erupted. It's, yeah, we're blessed to be in the particular age that we are. Yep.

It seems like a mysterious thing, but I'm reading a great book on it right now. It's short called He That Is Spiritual by an old theologian named Lewis Sperry-Chafer. And it's a good book. It goes into it in detail. You know, the Holy Spirit's this. We tend to think he's mysterious. He's a mysterious member of the Trinity because we know Jesus. We know the Father.

We hear about them a lot, but the Holy Spirit seems to be more abstract. But he's not. He's a person too. And as Christians, we are indeweled with him, that we might walk through the world with a different wisdom than what others do. You know, it sounds arrogant, but it's really not. It's the opposite. It's we have no wisdom on our own. Any wisdom that we do possess or try to communicate is through the spirit.

And that's it. Yeah. Can you say the Holy Spirit's a person? What do you mean? Yeah. Well, okay, so you're one person with one being. That's the way you exist. And that's the way I exist.

I, too, am one person with one. one being. But God is different according to the scripture. You won't find it in any specific scripture where it says God is a Trinity, but it's formed from a synthesis of reading various passages in the Bible. And so while you're one being in one person, and I'm one being in one person, Almighty God is one being, so one God there, but his nature is three persons, Christ, Father, and Holy Spirit. That's how God exists. And it's not as though Christ is 30% God and the Spirit's 33% and the thought, no, no, they're all fully God, totally God. And yet there's three persons in this divine nature of one being. How to understand it? Good luck. I wish I could. I think most Christians

do to some extent, but we can't. It just isn't within our capacity to comprehend. It doesn't make it less true. You know, it just, that's the nature of them. So in that sense, yeah, Christ is... How can you possibly see upon past the event horizon with actually going past it? Exactly. You can speculate all you want. Totally.

Christopher Nolan here. Totally. You know, that's exactly right. You can speculate all you want. And we know it's true because, well, people will say it's circular, but because the scripture says and because Christ is raised from the dead, we know it's true.

But it's something that we just, we can't comprehend. And that's okay. You know, there are, you ever read the book of Job? Yes, but not recently. No, I don't. So, like, I know the story, but it's, you know, like, when we get into the Gospels and you start rattling off stories, I'm like, oh, yeah, I have that multiple times now, right? It's, it's, but no, carry on. No, so Job is this, I think a lot of people have read the story, but of course, it's a lot of poetry.

When I was young, went, ah, poetry. I don't really want to read poetry. I wish I was smarter than I would have. But anyways, the story is simple, right? Job has everything taken away from him, because Satan's basically made a bet with God in some, weird cosmic game. So he's made a bet with God saying, if I take all this stuff away from Job,

if I take his kids away, and if I, you know, afflict him with horrible sickness and sores and all of these terrible, terrible things. And if I basically make him destitute, then he's going to curse you. Right now he serves you, but he won't. He won't if, you know,

I steal these things, right. And God says, oh, try me, let's see. And so all those things are taken from Job. Job's just suffering and unimaginable agony. He can't sleep because his nightmares are so ferocious. He can't eat. He can't stand. He's just suffering.

And his friends come to give him counsel. Very foolish counsel, but they come to give him counsel. And Job defends himself, and they do this for some time. Until eventually Job says, I want to question God, basically. It's time for me to question the one who did this to me, the Almighty. And so he, you know, offers up this inquisitive but force. um question of the almighty why basically why have you done this i don't understand and in job 41 god replies and actually that those you know yeah 39 40 41 etc god replies and it's a haunting passage

because basically god says to job all right you want me to uh tell you why i've done what i've done or why i've allowed to happen what's happened buckle up dress yourself up put on your armor in a sense because I'm going to question you, and you're going to answer me like a man, says the scripture. And in Job 41, God begins this, this brilliant, you know, this brilliant, I don't know what, command is the wrong word. What's it called when you give a, you know, like a sonnet? Is that what it is when you give us, when it's one guy talking? Anyways, monologue, whatever you want to call it. And he basically asked Job, first of all, who are you? He says, here I am. I can put a cord through Leviathan's nose. I can

pierce its jaw with a hook. I can make it do what I want it to do. I can take this fearsome, terrible monster that you won't even touch. It's so frightening. And it completely comes under my command. It begs for its life. You know, it tries to speak to me with gentle words.

I put it on a leash. I do all of these things that you couldn't even fathom doing. And where were you when the stars were made? And where were you when the angels were singing up in the heavens when the earth was made? And where were you when all of these cosmic events that I caused happened. And of course, Job can't answer. He wasn't there. He's a man. And so Job reels, and he goes, I've made a mistake, made a grave mistake, because I have dared to

challenge the infinite mind of Almighty. And so Job actually, you know, repents of what he's done. He says he's changed his mind. Repent is a word that's too often misunderstood, right? We tend to think it means, like, you know, be good. It really just means change your mind, you know, change your heart. But anyways, he pivots from what he was originally believing and now says, ah, I see. I really have no right in this instance to question what God has done. He's infinite and his mind is infinite and his whole being is infinite and I'm not. So how can I possibly comprehend what he's doing? And so too with the nature of God. How can we comprehend the Trinity? He's infinite and we're not infinite. And so it's just one of those mysteries that we have to accept. And I'm at perfect peace with that.

you know we sometimes think too much about those things it's okay there are some things that are just unknowable that's all right yeah well that's faith yeah that's right you sound like the philosopher there's a guy named kirkagard where he basically says uh i don't quite agree with him and everything where he's like he almost goes um no reason at all can be used to get to almighty which i don't quite i don't agree with but his teaching is if you want it you know it's all you have to make this big leap of faith and that's it Like, of course, believing in Christ is faith. Yeah, absolutely.

But I also think there are rational arguments that lead us to believing in Jesus. It's a harmony of both. But Kierkega Garp is really solid on the leap into the dark, or I guess towards the light in this case. Yeah. And that's good. Did I tell you about, I watched, I'm not really an Instagram person. But anyways, I was on there, you know, my forgiveness to all the Instagram followers.

If you want to talk to me, text me. Don't shoot me Instagram messages. Don't shoot me Facebook messages. it's literally on the podcast for a reason. It's the easiest way to get to me. Anyways, I was on there, and of course, the algorithm feeds what I like. And so I like, you know, anything from like The Gladiator to, you know, like Denzel Washington to, you know, some different characters in the spiritual world that just have like these profound stories. Anyways, it's this lady.

She's talking on stage. And she's looking at the crowd and she's talking about basically. basically how like God can solve problems. Yeah. And she's looking at this crowd and she's going, you guys are all capable. And I bet you this group of people, there's no instance where you would go,

yeah, God did that. Yeah. You look at an impossible situation. You find a work around. You find ways to get through it. And you are always rationalizing. You're like, this is, that did it. And you're right?

That was me. She goes, so he's going to put you in a situation where only he can get you out. and when you're done with it, you're going to go, I can't rationalize that away. You can either lie to yourself or you. And I'm like, yeah, I've had that experience. And if you were to characterize me at one point,

it's like, well, how did I get to where I was at? Lots of hard work. And anything that I was told I couldn't do, I went and did it. I found ways to do the unthinkable. Until you run into a situation where no human means can get you out of it. And then you're like, yeah, boy, now I've got to wrestle with that. Yeah. And so I don't want to, you know, with the Holy Spirit and stuff, you know, like, you shouldn't think about it. Because I'm like, well, if I hadn't thought about it, I wouldn't be able. I had to wrestle with these large things and I'm continuing.

Oh, yeah, totally. To do that. Yeah. But I am okay with, I don't know, just trust that, you know, that's right. That's right. That's right. Or that God has a plan. That's right. As long as I stay on said plan. Yeah. That it leads to things I'm supposed to do. That's right. Oh, exactly. Like, it's not wrong to think about. trinity or to think about God's nature not at all that's like you know that is one of the commands of the Christian is to meditate on who our father is and who our Savior is and who the Holy Spirit is that's wonderful it's just that you know yeah there are some things that you cannot rationalize that's right even rationality like can you rationalize

rationality can you reason can you use your reason to show why reason is reasonable no because doing so involves using reason and so you you are arguing in a circle in a very devastating way. You have to have faith that reason is reasonable in order to use reason, which is fascinating, right? Because so often we say, you know, you look at the Enlightenment and the modern era, and the consensus was no faith is needed anymore, we have reason.

Only reason. We reason is enough. We'll reason our way to truth. But of course, those thinkers neglected that they had faith that their reason was reasonable. You know, you can't prove the law of non-contradiction. If you try and do it, you invoke the law of non-contradiction. So that doesn't work.

So yeah, you have to have, and this is what Solomon so brilliantly understands in, you know, Song of Solomon and Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, and just in his life, you know, he recognizes that faith is required to have reason, to have wisdom. He doesn't get to that wisdom himself. He asks for it from God, and he gets it.

And it's when he starts to more and more rely on himself that he goes increasingly mad, you know, and he ends up in the state where he does, which is a very tragic and terrible place, and it leads Israel into a lot of sin as a consequence of his actions. So yeah, your thoughts profound. And ultimately, what is that one thing,

which no matter what we try and do, we can't do it, we can't rationalize it, which is salvation and it's sin. You know, we can do a lot of things on our own we think. I can build a table or you can build a table and you can start a brilliant podcast, or you can do all these things. But what you can't do and what I can't do is,

save myself from evil, from what's wrong, from sin. I can't raise myself from the dead. And if someone could do it, they would have done it already, other than Christ, of course. And so in that sense, yeah, it's faith. Yeah, it's faith. One of the hardest things to do as a man, I can't speak for a woman, is to surrender to it.

Yeah. That is to realize there is something more powerful than you and you are not in control. Yeah. is a very humbling moment. Humbling, but isn't it a great piece? No more any pressure on you. You know, Paul has this great thing in Colossians 2.

This is one of my favorite little passages in the entire scripture. In Colossians 2 verses 20 to 23, Paul is talking and he goes, hi there. He says, you people have been saved by the spirit. And you know what I preach to you. You know that salvation is by grace through faith. So he goes, why on earth? Tell me, he says, have you reverted to trying to sanctify yourselves and, you know, save others and so on, through earthly means?

Why are you invoking upon, why are you impressing upon yourselves rules such as don't handle, don't taste, and don't touch, you know, legalist rules? Doing so, he says, it might look wise because it requires very strong bodily devotion. It requires a lot of self-discipline, requires a denial, and all of these, a denial of the self and all of these other things. But he says those rules don't really save us at all, do they. He says they don't actually save us. They deteriorate the more that we use those rules. And so they're, in essence, practically pointless. And then he transitions to chapter three. There weren't chapters then. But he transitions to chapter three versus one to four and talks about our new citizenship, which is in heaven. We're eagerly awaiting this savior from up there. And so why not instead enjoy the grace and the peace which comes from knowing Jesus? That is, when you and I were yet, you know, know, in our natural state, separated from God, we found that there was so much pressure on ourselves to try and make everything work. And we were so, there's so much stress in trying to get through life, and rightfully so. But then Jesus comes along and he rescues us, he saves us, and we invoke the doctrine of what? What is it? Matthew 11? Yeah, 28 to 30, come to me, you who are weary and

burdened, and I'll give you rest, and you'll find all this peace for your souls. I'm humble and gentle and heart come learn from me because my yoke is easy and my burden is light. And so in surrender to the spirit, to Jesus Christ, there is so much more peace and freedom in knowing that they have control of our lives rather than ourselves that enables us to finally and truly live. Like this is one of the most wonderful truths about reality, which is we think, we talked about that there to start, that rules and regulations, surrender, decreases our freedom. That's why, you know, anarchy is such a seductive concept so many. I'll be an anarchist because then I'll be truly free. No one to govern me. I'll be ungovernable. But the truth is without rules and regulations or without the spirit in this

case, submission to the spirit, there is no freedom at all. You play hockey. I play hockey. And both of us know that you play hockey better than I do. But anyways, both of us know that without boards, you know, in plexiglass, you couldn't play the game. Or a ref. Or a ref. Like without any of those things, the game actually ceases to be a game and you don't play at all. No ref. Okay, anyone can do whatever they want, so it's not hockey. No boards, you skate right off the ice when you hit someone, and you go into the stands, you know, wreck fans and your skates and your equipment and so on, and the game becomes unplayable.

So you have to submit to some authority, a righteous authority, a just authority for sure, but an authority nonetheless, so that you're able to actually play this game called life and enjoy it as it's meant to be enjoyed. That was a real revelation. I remember when I first learned that. Yeah. If I don't ask you about Alberta independence, I'm going to kick myself.

Sure. Because I've been, you know, oh, I tired of talking about it. Yeah. I talked about it in the lead up to the election and after the election. And I just, you know, I know, I, you know, one of the things that's easy about sitting across from you and is just hopping into a conversation like this. I want to talk about it. Yeah. Like I find it so enjoyable. So do I.

And I'm sure the listener does too. And I'm sure there's some listeners that are like, I can't handle this. You know, and that's, I don't know, it's too bad. Yeah. I was there once upon a time. Sure. You, one of the questions that's gotten asked is, you know, if Alberta were to leave. Yeah.

Landlocked. Yeah, that's a huge one. Huge one. No chance of doing anything there. Yeah. Probably shouldn't do it. Not a good idea. Yeah.

What are your thoughts? Well, the first thought I had, because I've spoken about this a few times now, the first thought I had was that the independence activists, those who are proposing independence were approaching the problem all wrong. I thought they were approaching it incorrectly because they were saying, no, no, we won't be landlocked when we're independent.

We'll actually trade better and it'll be better for Alberta overall because we won't be landlocked like we are right now. But I think that's actually a nonsensical argument. I don't think that makes sense in the slightest because all you have to do is look at a map and see the geography of our province to know that based on the definition of landlocking,

we're landlocked. You know, we don't have a port on any immediate side of our borders. We are smack middle in the prairies. I guess there's the mountains too and so on. I can't see them right now because the G7's there, but anyways. Well, anyways, anyways, we're in the middle of the prairies here and no water, no port,

which actually I'm okay with. I'm not much for boats or anything. Hey, I like the prairies and keeping my feet on soil. But anyways, so I said, turn the argument on its head, and let's actually concede the point to those who disagree with independence. And let's say that, yes, we will be landlocked, actually, in an independent Alberta, because obviously we will be. Just look at the map. And unless you redraw border lines, which I think is unlikely, we're not going to have immediate access to port when we're independent.

But then what we say is what's too often neglected in that argument is the fact that we're landlocked right now. Even as a province, Alberta, right, when it's its own province, as it stands in Confederation, is also a landlocked province. It does not have immediate access to port. It does not have immediate access to anything on its north, south, east or west side when it comes to the sea or tidewater. And so we're landlocked as it is. And as we know, even I think the most, you know, pro-Canadian Albertans will have to admit and should admit that there are problems getting our goods to port right now. So we have this landlocking. issue within Confederation or without it. We know it exists. It's just the way our geography is set up.

And we know that right now we have problems getting our goods to tide water. Oil, of course, is the most obvious and common example, right? And so what I've done in these speeches, it's say, let's change the argument. Let's change the actual condition of independence, right? Because saying that we'd be landlocked is a non-sequitur. We are right now. Let's instead ask the question, how can Alberta best navigate its landlock? Can it do it within Canada or outside it? Can it do it as a dependent province within Canada? Or can it do it better?

Can it navigate its landlocking issue better as an independent nation outside of Canada? And then we go into a discussion. And of course, my- The answer is as soon as you remove Ottawa and all the regulations and everything else, you have a ton of opportunity to explore your borders in a really manageable way. Yeah, you just get to negotiate in a way you don't know. So we talk about how Alberta exports a lot of goods. It's great.

180 some billion. Almost 90% of those goods go to America. So they go south, south of our border. But we don't govern that trade. Ottawa governs it. That's what the constant, what is that? Section 91, subsection 2 of the Constitution. And I think it's 121.

Both of those sections is either 121 or 132. Goverin that. So Ottawa determines the rules of trade, which is problem. Because Ottawa does not have the same values as Alberta does. and there are certain provisions in, let's say, what is it, C-U-S-M-A, the new treaty that took over NAFTA, which I would have, I think, bargained harder for her than what Ottawa did, such as pipeline infrastructure that isn't in the treaty right now, and so on. So Ottawa does that on our behalf, which isn't ideal.

Second, you can trade with the provinces. That's also a very good thing. We export a lot to our neighbors, wonderful, but that trade too is governed by the federal government. And that's found in either section 132 or 121. You can see why I'm confused there of the Constitution. I think it's 132. And in essence, a province is not allowed to restrict trade to another or to another province, you know, for the purposes of punishing a particular province.

So Alberta and the rest of the provinces are really beholden also to the federal government in those regards. It's why we can't turn off the taps. And there are other reasons as well, such as pipelines being internaissance or being governed by Ottawa, when they cross over provincial borders and so on. But, you know, just as a short snippet, the fact is, right now, Alberta does not have leverage to negotiate its best economic interests in Canada. It's just the way the Constitution's been set up.

Deals with America are made by Ottawa. Deals with the provinces and free trade is made by Ottawa. Pipelines moving across the country governed by Ottawa and so on and so on and so on so that we don't really have a seat of the table. Not in any serious sense, not at all. The best we can do, I joke, is, tell Ottawa what we want and then watch Ottawa do the complete opposite. And that's the way it's been in the province and in Confederation for how many decades now.

But if you were independent, all of a sudden, you would be freed from all of those rules, those restrictions, you know, those ones that govern trade and international treaties and so on. And you'd be allowed, as an independent nation, to have an equal seat at the table with other international countries, like America, like Canada, and so on. You would no longer be treated like a child. You couldn't be. You'd instead be treated as a independent nation because you would be. And so we would all of a sudden have leverage that we didn't have before.

It would make it easier to navigate our landlocking problem, I think, rather than more difficult. And, you know, like, again, you can disarm that a lot of ways. You can say that already most of our goods go south, almost 90% of our exports go south. And a lot of our imports, I think like 67% come up from the south. So that's probably the best way to navigate it. But I want, you know, deals that with America and so on that permit more free trade and are more advantageous for our province and what we have right now. And I think the future is very exciting when you consider it from that frame, from that lens.

And listen, there are other tools that Alberta has too, like if it was independent, such as, you know, the UN's, what is it, law of the sea or convention on that matter, which says a landlocked nation must have access to tidewater. I don't bring that up in my speech. We do maybe after sometimes when questions are being asked. Because I don't want to rely on the UN to guarantee these provisions. You know, what happens if the UN doesn't come through? I don't particularly hold a lot of faith in that corrupted institution.

So I instead wanted to focus on what can Alberta do itself to guarantee its economic flourishing. And, you know, like one of the things that's come since the Kearney election has been this open. pouring of Alberta independence momentum. Yeah. And then what's come from that has been a whole bunch of questions where you're like, I don't know. Yeah. Like what's going to happen with X, Y, Z?

Yeah. It's a good question. And, and, you know, like certainly Bruce Party talking about getting away from First Nations having separate rights and it's an interesting, I don't know where to sit with all of that. Just that it's, you know, if you're going to have these conversations, well, let's have the conversation. So one of the things that people point at from.

before this had any momentum. So Alberta would be landlocked. That would be stupid. How are you going to get your goods out? Yeah. How are you going to do anything? Yeah. Yeah.

It's a good question. You've already pointed to, well, the largest customer we have currently is to the south. Do you think they would want to work more or less with us if we were our own country? This is just it. And the answer is, you know, of course, I think more. And we would be certainly more eager to sign our own deals that are made by Albertans for Albertans than what Ottawa is signing and negotiating on our behalf right now. And there are other, listen, there are other landlocked countries in the world, such as Switzerland and, and

what else. A lot of those European nations are landlocked. And they do like not just good, right, not just well, they do very well. And there was a study that came out a little while ago that said landlocked nations pay more for freight, you know, by, by a lot of percent. But you have to be careful with such statistics because those statistics are skewed by, you know, certain, like certain nations like Bolivia and so on and, and poor nations, you know, down in Africa and so on that have very little infrastructure that are constantly at odds with their neighbors and that do not have, you know, even functioning roads or at least ones that are like up here. That completely changes the metric. When you look at the European nations that

are landlocked, they barely, barely pay more for imports of goods and services from the sea than their neighbors, right? The difference is almost minimal because they already have the infrastructure. We have the rail here in Alberta. We have roads that already run across the entire country. We have the infrastructure. And we have the desire to make excellent deals with our neighbors, whether south or east and west or what might have you. Like, it's not as though we want to completely cut off our relationships. Isolation. Totally.

We don't want to be isolationals. We just think that we'll have a better opportunity to negotiate and to, to forge our future, which we believe reflects the will of Albertans, better as an independent nation than we would if we were dependent. And our conviction is that landlocking is better navigated through independence than it is through dependence. Like there is nothing we can do right now. If Ottawa says no pipeline to the coast, what are we going to do?

We can't go to America because that isn't within the Constitution. We don't have that right or that ability to go there as Albertans. We can't try and use some economic muscle, whether you tariff trade that goes across the borders provincially or turn off the taps because those things aren't granted to us constitutionally. And so the best we can do is throw up our hands and say, please. But that hasn't worked. They don't expect it to work in the future.

I know that the premiers are talking about how much more reasonable Prime Minister Carney is than the previous Prime Minister. I don't believe that. He might be outwardly more reasonable, but I think when you read his works and when you look at his history, he is very much more dangerous than the previous Prime Minister. And I think right now Carney is putting on a very moderate and mild show. But underneath, in the shadows, I think you'll find a very different individual.

Speaking of Carney, G7, you brought it up earlier, is in Alberta currently. Yeah. What have, you thought of that? I wouldn't have had it here, I think, if it were up to me. What I'm so, listen, this will sound funny, but, well, I don't know. I pay taxes to visit the parks. I pay taxes to go to the mountains when I please.

And now I can't do that because of the security and so on. What exactly happens at, you know, all of these meetings? I don't know. I am, I tell you what, you read Solomon, you read that wisdom literature. he warns very, very carefully against signing treaty after treaty after treaty after treaty after treaty. I'm not saying all treaties are bad. I'm just saying there comes a point at which you become so integrated

with every other nation and every aspect of life that you get drawn into unwanted wars or you get pushed into all of these clubs and societies which are sinister in nature and so on and so on. And I think that if you are an independent Alberta, I would be very much in favor of just being so careful and specific with what deals you sign with whom. It's far better to be on the Lord's side than it is to be on man's side. And I would sooner, you know, as a Christian, not sign a single treaty with someone who is evil and be with the Lord,

then sign all of these dozens and dozens and dozens of treaties and not be with Almighty. So I'm just, yeah, I think it's a different age and it was years and years ago. We know that all of these big powers have desires which are contrary to classical virtue and which are contrary to what is determined to be good by the scripture. And I think we ought to have no part in that whatsoever, whatsoever.

That's funny thing about the Christian story is that when you look at like Daniel, you look at Nehemiah, you look at a lot of these men and women of faith in both Testaments Old and New but let's just take the old for the moment all of their political

actions seem to be contrary to political wisdom if that makes sense take Daniel so there's a decree past you know you can't pray you know as a Daniel can't pray

to his God what's the first thing Daniel does he opens the window and prays so that everyone can see him pray not because he's arrogant but because he will not be intimidated by those legal men and women in the courts. And of course he has to go to the lion's den because of it.

And so it seems like a very foolish political move. But in light of history and in light of the scripture, what Daniel did was righteous. And he's remembered for it. And those who put him in the lion's den are most certainly not. You know? So in that sense, one of the most illuminating teachings in the scripture is what's wisdom in Jesus's sight and in the spirit's sight

is very often foolishness in the world's sight is almost always foolishness in the world's sight. Paul in 1 Corinthians 1533 says, wisdom of the world is foolishness in God's sight for it's written. He catches the wise and their craftiness. And so when Christians, and those who study the scripture talk about, you know, what to do politically,

worldly, it'll seem like utter foolishness. It'll seem like madness or nonsense. But that's only because the Christian is trying to approach it from a different lens than what, But, you know, those who are focused on temporal matters are trying to approach it from. And it's like, yeah, it's tough to argue it in public, you know, because it seems so nonsensical, but it's really not. I really appreciate you coming in. I appreciate you having me.

These are my favorite. They're fantastic. Every time I love them more and more. Well, it's funny. It's, you know, this is the first time me listening to Tanner. I don't want myself. I mean, if you go back to it, I'd like I, maybe I should. who that'd be a tough

not in the sense of the conversation because the conversation's always in my opinion electric but I think I'd be listening myself I wonder what I'm thinking there you know because there's been you know it's been a few years and the conversation has evolved

yeah like there's been different iterations of how these conversations go yeah you can certainly well I wonder if like Joe Rogan or something goes back and listens to the guy I think of is Peterson right away, but he's had any numerous guests on. Yeah. You know, is it four times?

Is it 10 times? Sure. Different ones, you know, different amounts. And I wonder if he ever goes back and listens to it, almost like its own little book, you know, because it's a conversation with the same person, but it is evolving or changing or whatever word you want to put to it. Yeah.

It's great. And the audience gets to come along for it. for the ride. It's been a long for the ride. Excellent. Yeah. Appreciate this. And if I do not catch up to you before summer.

Ah. Yeah, we'll be back. If nothing else, Christmas Day. Yeah, you better believe it. Well, you know, we started that, unbeknownst to, you know, I don't know if I knew what I was doing back then, but now I look forward to it. So do I. So do I. Appreciate you hopping in and keeping us up to date on all things, Alberta.

But, uh, eh, you know, I, something about, uh, contemplating. the gospel and just the Bible in general. Absolutely. It is very intriguing to me. You better believe it. You and me both. Eternity is something to ponder. It is.

Appreciate it, Tanner. Thanks a bunch.