Shaun Newman Podcast - #975 - Tanner Hnidey

Episode Date: December 25, 2025

Tanner is an economist, freelance speaker, social critic and author of his new book “Antichrist 2030”. It is our 3rd annual Christmas conversation. Merry Christmas everyone!Tickets to Cornerstone Forum 26’: https://www.showpass.com/cornerstone26/Tickets to the Mashspiel:https://www.showpass.com/mashspiel/Silver Gold Bull Links:Website: https://silvergoldbull.ca/Email: [e-mail] Grahame: [phone]Bow Valley Credit UnionBitcoin: www.bowvalleycu.com/en/personal/investing-wealth/bitcoin-gatewayEmail: [e-mail] Prophet River Links:Website: store.prophetriver.com/Email: [e-mail] the code “SNP” on all ordersGet your voice heard: Text Shaun 587-217-8500

This is Viva Fry. I'm Dr. Peter McCullough. This is Tom Lomago. This is Chuck Prodnick. This is Alex Krenner. Hey, this is Brad Wall. This is J.P. Sears. Hi, this is Frank Paredi.

This is Tammy Peterson. This is Danielle Smith. This is James Lindsay. Hey, this is Brett Kessel, and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks. Merry Christmas, everyone. I hope that you're not tuning into this. I hope you find this episode a few days later, if I'm being completely honest. I hope you're spending.

it with family and friends but if i go back to year one uh shout out to troy clark and a few other guys who i wasn't going to put one out on christmas day and they said i'd really appreciate it if you did i got to work and so um they convinced me and we have never stopped in the years since we always put out a christmas episode this is the third time i've had tanner on to do a christmas day episode so i just wishing you all a merry christmas hopefully you hear this a few days later but if i somehow Find it on to your playlist on Christmas. What a surreal experience that is for me on this side because the only guy that I had grown up

that made it into the Newman family consecutively year over year was Don Cherry. So if I'm making it onto your Christmas Day playlist, I think that's pretty high company. I want to give a shout out to all the companies who've made this year possible. Silver Gold Bull, Bow Valley Credit Union, Profit River, Carly Clause and Windsor Plywood, Rectec.

PlanetCom, Diamond 7 Meets, Renegate Acres, I keep wanting to say just Caleb Taves, but it's Renegate Acres, Caleb Taves is the owner, the boys, the brothers over at Guardian plumbing and heating, Joey and Blaine, Shane with Ignite Distribution, all these companies have made this year possible, and I wish them a happy, or a Merry Christmas, and I hope wherever you're at, I hope you're enjoying it with family and friends, and, you know, it's funny, we record this episode a few days before Christmas. And I look forward to sitting with Tanner all the time, but the Christmas one is just,

it's one of those ones that I think it's just, it's the last one I do, essentially, before the new year. And I don't know, it's just, it's like one of those things you put on the calendar, and I'm excited for it. I'm excited to see Tanner and sit and have a conversation. And, you know, just in,

I know that family time is coming right away and all the great things. So I appreciate all of you, listening and tuning in. And if you're here on Christmas Day, well, Merry Christmas to you and get home safe. And if you're sitting at home, thanks for to throw me on. That's an awful treat to be in that realm. A couple of notes for some things coming up. The mash spiel is under a month away. We have our curling bond spiel in Kalmar, Alberta. It's just west of Laduke. And you can get signed up as an individual or team of four. It's going to be a fun day.

to Evichipiak, Marty up north, Lee's Merle, the military boys, Jamie, Chuck, and Willey going to be there. And, you know, like, twos myself, there's going to be a lot of fun happening that day. It's going to be pretty relaxed. Don't feel like you need to be this expert curler. You do not. You do need to get a ticket, though, and you can find that down in the show notes. You can text me if you can't find it, but it's showpass.com backslash mash spiel.

And then the Cornerstone Forum returns March 28th. And although there is a little extra time on the Cornerstone Forum, Early Bird tickets end December 31st. So you are now six days away from the prices going up. Don't wait. Go get a ticket today. Look forward to seeing you guys in the new year, March 28th. If you're listening or watching on Spotify, Apple, YouTube, Rumble, X, Facebook,

substack, make sure to subscribe, make sure to leave a review, and make sure to share with a friend. Merry Christmas, guys. Appreciate you being here. Appreciate you sticking with me through the year. And I'm looking forward to what 2026 brings. Of course, on December 31st, we will have 31st. I don't know why that sounded weird. Crenn Rutherford's in the studio.

We do the year in review. And tomorrow on Friday, it's a replay. No mashup. Me and 2's, we replay the first conversation we ever had. And then next week, minus December 31st, it's all replay episodes until we get into January. So enjoy some family time. Look forward to hearing from you guys in the new year. and Merry Christmas, everyone.

I'm just excited to go spend some time with family, and I hope you're doing the same. Now, let's get on to that tale of the tape. Today's guest is an economist, freelance speaker, social critic, and author. I'm talking about Tanner today. So buckle up. Here we go. If people were watching your movie

Yeah And they They were You had an audience What would they be screaming at you right now Like you're watching a horror film Or you're watching a uplifting football movie Or your, you know, whatever it is

It's what is the audience thinking about your life right now Yeah That's a good question I don't know the answer And neither do I Probably work harder or probably that if you know if they could see the end of the movie

then they'd probably yell work harder because if they saw the end then they would see the they would see eternity we'd see it in light of eternity and I think all men certainly all Christians but all men when they look at their lives

in light of eternity ought to have a far more passionate and yeah explosive you know activity in their life than what they otherwise might i i think wasting life is such a travesty i detest a waste of life like as far as

i'm concerned there is nothing more tragic than a guy who just goes to work hates his job comes home watches tv for six hours goes to bed does it all again for 40 years and then he dies i think that's just a travesty and to be frank jesus thinks it's a travesty too when you read the scripture and you read about how there's a kingdom that's coming, right? It's true that you and I are saved by grace as Christians. But when Jesus comes down to rule, when he comes down to reign, Christians are given tasks, or they're going to be given tasks as they help Jesus's reign.

And our appointments will be determined based on what we do here and now. So why waste one's time? Why waste one's life? that's a good question yeah and if people missed it because we're just going to start tenor today in studio on christmas day um well i mean we're recording this a few days before but i was saying in um um the opening you know the ad reads and everything if somehow i made it to your christmas day like i really hope nobody listens to this i really hope they listen to it like three days later you know like my big uh

I guess my thought on Christmas Day episode and I gave the in the ad reads I gave a shout to Troy Clark but there was others in the first year I started doing this podcast Tanner I'm sure I reiterate this every time you come on for the Christmas Day episode I wasn't going to release a Christmas day episode I'm like I don't know you know like it's Christmas go be with your family yeah and then Troy Clark that year and others said I'd really appreciate it if you release something because I'm going to be working that day and I you know I it's nice to have something to know oh so you know now this is the third year of it and you know the only thing that made the newman family uh you know consistently was don cherry's rockum sock um we used to get it for

dad every christmas and we'd watch it in the morning yeah and uh now i'm like if i somehow i'm gracing your christmas day what a what an honor to have and uh to sit here and do it with you i'm like like Pretty excited about it, you know? Like, I'm like, yeah, what are you doing tomorrow? Well, I'm going to sit with Tanner. Sweet. It's our annual Christmas Day episode. Now, the question I, or the statement I'd heard, you know, is if an audience was

an audience was watching your life like a movie, what part is it at, and what are they all saying amongst themselves or yelling at the screen or like, you know, come on, you just, you know, go get the girl or, you know, whatever it is. Now, you're married now, so I highly doubt there. they're probably yelling. Are you going to have any kids or, you know, or what have you? And I was, I thought about it for a long time. Like, I don't, I don't know. I don't know what they're, what they're, what they're saying. Um, probably want me, you know, this audience probably wants me to land one of like 10 people that are out there on the world. That's probably

what they want. But, uh, it's an interesting question to ponder about where you're at in life and what you're not getting to, you know? Well, and like, to be very philosophical, the truthful answer is, who cares? Who cares if people are yelling? You know? They could be yelling a lot of things, and they do yell a lot of things.

But as Christians, your task and mine is not or are not determined based on what man thinks we ought to do. The truth is, with Christianity, Paul calls it foolishness in the world's sight. You read the Corinthians, first and second Corinthians. And Paul regularly says,

look, we're going to be counted as idiots. for what we do and the reasons that we do what we do. But he goes, that's okay. That's not really our concern. It isn't our concern at all, actually. What matters is that we serve Almighty. So maybe to flip the question over to say, it's not so important to wonder what people are yelling as it is.

What's God telling you in this particular chapter? That's probably a better Christian answer. That's a good question. You know, you were asking about how did I find this place? I was about to tell you, And I believe I've already said it on here once, but I, you know, it being Christmas and what's God telling you? I had a lot of qualms about coming to this spot. Yeah.

Mainly, you know, my qualms. Like, I wanted to come out in the countryside, but I was like, you know, all the places I thought it should be. Yeah. Nothing worked. Yeah. When I say nothing worked, zero percent of it worked. And Jamie Sinclair, who, you know, we did a military roundtable in here. You know, you've been to the other studio a handful of times.

Lots of times, yeah. And nobody's ever complained about sound quality. No. I thought it, but nobody's ever voiced it. Like, you know, you might want to, you know, and I'm thinking, you know, people like Daniel Smith, right? When the premier comes and she doesn't even say anything, she was on radio for how many years, she could have went, you know, you probably could do some things.

So I would have been like, yeah, agreed. But, you know, it was Jamie Sinclair, a military guy to go, your sound quality here sucks. So then we went for a beer after at OJ's. Yeah. And lunch. And we were sitting up at the bar, and I don't normally sit at the bar. Jamie likes to stand, so we're sitting there standing.

And then watched Jonas Hagel. Yeah. And I didn't think much of it. Just, hey, Jonas, you want to come sit with us? And so he came and they started talking. And then Jamie's, then Jamie turns back. So where are you at with this new studio? Right? And I'm like, I don't know, man. It's kind of like, I don't even know if it's happening anymore, right? Like, I've just given up on it. Yeah. And, you know, I got people in my ear telling me to move it to Calgary and different things like that to be close to an airport so you can fly in. Maybe you can land, you know, Dave Chappelle when he lands in Emmington. You know, like all of a sudden, you know, I get the proximity thing, folks. I'm not saying it. So they start talking and all of a sudden this place comes up. And I don't remember how it comes up. And I don't remember how it comes up.

and I look at Jonas, I'm like, that's still there. He's like, oh, yeah, why? You know, I'm like, well, I tell him what I've been trying to do. And he's like, oh, yeah, go take a look at it. And I've already been, I've been here once in my life, maybe as a kid I'd come here a couple times, I'm not sure. I went in the bathroom and prayed, and I just said, thanks, because I wouldn't have pulled that out of my hat.

Yeah, I wouldn't even have been on my radar. Yeah. And then when you, when you fast forward, you know, it was probably a couple months. I'd come and toured it and looked at it, and I looked at the A-frame cabin. I'm like, it's just the angled walls. Yeah. I'm like, I mean, you, Miles have got the entire thing to make a studio out of it, and that doesn't make any sense because the idea was to build a studio and lodge together.

Right. So that eventually people that come from afar, or maybe you and Paige, you want to come out for a weekend, right? You could come use it. Yeah. And it'd be like an added bonus for people, you know, like people listen to the podcast. Ben Trudeau was just on Christmas Eve. And for him to drive all this way,

you could he could bring his wife his kids and they could all spend a night or maybe a weekend I don't know I'm not gonna talk for guests come on the podcast but just didn't have a benefit anyways that was the idea give people an experience so I looked at the A frame and I'm like

that isn't gonna work like you know okay I thought I heard you I didn't hear you because it isn't there entering my oldest brother and he's like well what about that building? I'm like that building so I've been thinking about how big I wanted the studio.

Yeah. And I wanted it 24 feet long by 12, no, no, 14. I still remember praying this. 14 wide. I could use just a little extra room on the outside. So we measured it. It's 24 feet long by 16 wide, and I kind of chuckled at the time.

I'm like, well, that's pretty darn close. Sure. And so then I brought a whole bunch of other characters come take a look at it and tell me the idea was stupid and you shouldn't do it there and it'll fall over on it, you know, and on and on. and then we started to go to work at it and they put a wall inside the wall

and it went from 24 and 16 to 24 and 14 and I'm like holy mac like that it's just on my doing finding this place yeah yeah and so um you know it's uh still work in progress right there's still things that need to be done in here as we sit here today i can't know you know these are like

learning things. Yeah. The propane tank is out, and I'm like, really? You know? And so these are all the little new things that Sean has to deal with and contend with that he had no idea what's going to happen. I mean, obviously, I know propane's going to run out. But, you know, I thought I'd timed it that it wasn't going to.

I wasn't even worried about it, but there it is. So life goes on. And, no, this is, you know, when you talk about not caring what other people think and what is God telling you to do, for whatever reason, and I don't know the plan of it, I truly believe he was telling me to come here. Don't fully understand it because I have my qualm and I'm like, I don't know. Is this the spot? This is the spot?

This is the spot? And you're sitting here now, so. Oh, that's great. That's a great Christmas story because it's the same as Jesus going to Bethlehem or being born in Bethlehem. You know, everyone expects Messiah to come out of some empire or be born to some king or be raised as a statesman. But instead, the savior of mankind is born in this humble nothing. called the Place of Bread, the House of Bread, Bethlehem. It's like here, it's this humble little quaint, you know, a location in the country.

And there is a spirit here that is you can't quite captured in the city, you know. There's something about being outside away from, you know, all of the cars and all of the big concrete buildings and coming out to the country, out to the woods. I love it. It's humble. It's great. Yeah, it's great. Well, speaking of things, I better do this.

All right. So one of the things every guest gets by stepping into the studio. Oh, yes. Is a one ounce silver coin. Yeah, I got a collection of these now. Trust me, I keep them safe. Especially with the price of silver. Yeah, it's over $90 Canadian, you know?

Like pretty wild to watch. I don't know, the state of Canada. But, you know, on the other things you pay attention to, you pay attention to like, well, what is, what is silver doing? What is our dollar doing? Yeah. What are, what are things happening? You know, that isn't the, the goal of today's conversation.

Because when we step on to Christmas, you know, like, I want people to be with their family and, you know, and I focus on what truly matters. And I got interviewed for a conversation, I just posted on in Substack, but Nicole Murphy had interviewed me for a conference. virtual conference she was doing on creativity it was very interesting to me and she was asking me about that and one of the things that came out of it was i was just listening back to it today was she was talking about how many views she got during the freedom cowboy and then now she can hardly get anything yeah i don't know if i say this right but i go back to our first conversation we had what we were talking about aiming for you know i was saying truth or you know Something like George Pete, and you kept saying, well, you aim for Jesus.

And I'm like, maybe, you know. And it's funny. When I listen back to it, I should have just said that. But I was telling her, you know, if you chase likes and money as your sole purpose, I'm like, well, you could probably get it. Guaranteed you can. To me, that doesn't make any sense. It's like, who do I want to be?

Yeah. Where do I want to go and aim towards that? Who I want to be around my wife and my kids? Because I think that is what we should all be striving for. That is aiming towards Jesus. And that, I think, makes you a better person. Probably somebody people would want to be around, I assume, although maybe not. I don't know.

It's true. But now you run into a problem, which is a lot of people aim for Jesus, and they find out that they can't quite measure up. So what do we do? What do we do? This is a good Christmas point. This is a great Christmas point, actually. So, man looks at Christ, and in Christ, he sees the ideal person. Like, this is sound, that's too abstract.

Like, it is true that Christ is perfection, so he is the absolute good, right? Like, he is God. So we aim for him, and then we go, wait a second, I do not measure up. And no matter how hard I try to be like Christ, I find that I am not like Christ. And that's proven by the law, to be honest, because the law is a shadow. of Jesus, and we don't fit the shadow. So we have a problem. What do we do? Now the Christian answer, this is Paul's answer, is you need Jesus first. You have to believe in Jesus first, and then it's like something is unlocked, it's unlocked for you. Now you can engage in good works. So he goes, before

Jesus, before we believed in Jesus, you and I tried to do good works, and we discovered that, uh-oh, we very often do bad works, which isn't great. Paul goes, now I believe in Jesus, now we believe in Jesus. The Holy Spirit is now within us, and because of that spirit, we are able to do good works. This is the message of Titus, and it's the message of something called sanctification. So the idea is we don't do good works to get to Jesus. We do good works because we already believe in Jesus. We have Jesus.

We have the Holy Spirit. And the consequences are marvelous. It's this, over the entire course of a Christian's life, he continually is conformed and transformed to better reflect the image of Christ by the Holy Spirit working within him. So that's really the purpose of the incarnation. It's the purpose of Christmas, right, which is man tried to get to God and discovered he could not get to God, so God had to come to man.

And he had to come in this particular form, you know, in the form of man. right we're made in the image of God and like there's a I'm probably rambling now but there's a very famous there's a very famous controversy back in the early church it's called the Aryan controversy with a with a with a with a presbyter I guess he is yeah named Arias and a bishop named Alexander and a bishop's secretary Alexander's secretary named Athanasius so you had Christ and he dies he's resurrected and then he goes up into heaven and And in Acts 238, the church begins. Peter, you have the disciples, the apostles, you have Paul,

and they all explode forth into the world, and they preach Christianity. And of course, the church experiences this supernatural growth. Great. The apostles die, John dies, Paul dies, all of them die. And now their teachings are being passed on through generations. Well, in the early 300s, there comes a man named Arias. and Arias says, you know, I don't think, I don't believe, that Christ is uncreated. I think Christ is a created creature.

He is the one that created everything else. That's true. God created Christ first, but Christ isn't eternal. He isn't one who's uncreated. He's not infinite. He is the greatest of creatures, but he's a creature nevertheless. This is a view espoused by this guy named Arias. Now, the leader of Arias, the one who's over him, this bishop, his name is Alexander of Alexandria, says,

what are you talking about Arias? You're nuts. And the two clash, and they have this fight. It's in the early 300s, like, you know, maybe 320-ish, 318 AD. They're clashing. And eventually, Alexander, the guy above Arias, says, you're out. You've been excommunicated. So Arius leaves, and he seeks refuge with a guy named, I think it's Assebius. something like that anyway seeks refuge with him and the guy that he seeks refuge with goes no no you're right you're right as all of this is going on constantine becomes the emperor of the empire of course great constantine and he writes a letter after to both Alexander and Arias and he says listen fellas if we could just sort this thing out so that we could stabilize the empire because there's this debate that's raging about who Christ is whether he's created or not that would be great

so let's try and you know settle our differences and figure things out and from that is a council the council of nicaea in 325 and so you have all these church members who get together and uh you have the side of areas who says you know um christ is created you have the side of alexander that says no no christ is not created he is infinite and the two battle it out and Alexander emerges victorious so after nicaa we go great Christ is an uncreated being. He is God. He's eternal. And he's the one who made all things. We know the Nicene Creed. So for you and I, we go, that's orthodoxy. That's great. Wonderful. But for the church right after Nicene, or yeah, after Niccia, they said, we're not quite sure. See, they were confused about their terms. Some thought that Alexander was arguing that personhood and the essence of your personhood are the same. Others said, no, no, they're different, they're different. And they began to get confused and they didn't really know what to do. And after a few years, actually, Arias, that guy who said Christ was created, he's not eternal, started to emerge victorious. The emperors adopted his views. A lot of the church adopted his views. A lot of most Christians actually adopted his views and so on. One guy didn't adopt his views, which was the secretary of Alexander, later bishop, Athanasius.

Athanasius says, no, you're wrong, Arias, and even though I, Athanasius have been exiled numerous times, even though I've been persecuted, even though I'm labeled a murderer, even though this and this and this has happened to me, I will continue to champion the truth that Christ is uncreated and he is God. And Athanasius does this for years and years and years until later some more men, they're called the Capodosians, show up, and they settle the issue. And the church says, you're right, Christ is in fact uncreated and he is God. The whole point being, the whole point being, and this is Athanasius's argument, if Christ isn't God, then you and I aren't saved. If Christ isn't uncreated, then there's no way for you and I to be reconciled to God

and to participate in that divine life, which we have been promised in First Peter. So Athanasia says if Christ is created, you and I can't ever get to God. We can't get to Christ. We can't get to, well, yeah, God himself. Christ has to be God. He has to come to us first, and then we can participate in that life. So with the aiming thing, it's true. Like, aim for Christ, you know, but at the same time recognize that you will fall short.

As harsh as that sounds. So Christ has come to us. It's great. It's a wonderful gospel. And it's really the message of Christmas, right? We've said it a lot. Christ was made man well let me be more accurate um Christ was made is a wrong word Christ was Christ took on the appearance of man so that we might before God take on the

appearance of Christ that's accurate there it is yeah that's a good little bit of church history to read even though it can be kind of dry Athanasius Alexander and Arias fighting over the deity of Christ the conclusion is if if Christ is if Christ is not God, then we are not saved. But Christ is God. So we are saved. Not by our good works, but so that we can now, one, enjoy a relationship with God and we're now able to do good works. It's a very important distinction that a lot of Christians are confused on, but they need not be. Read Galatians, and it'll be all clear. Yeah, I don't know if you... I don't know if you... I don't know if you...

I mean, I don't even know how to follow that up, folks. I'm like, I go back to the aiming thing and people fall short. It's like, well, of course you fall short. Of course you fall short. I mean, that doesn't mean, don't try. So there's like, there's a, you go, people fall short. I don't know. This is kind of what my brain interpreted.

You go, you fall short. Once you realize you can't do it, don't do it. Right. And my brain goes, once you realize that you can never get there, then you're like, Oh, it's not a big deal if I do this and I do that. And I go to, and this is why I love having Tanner in, because he can just rattle off what verse it is. But there is, I want to say it's Paul.

It's probably Paul. Why do I do the things I know I shouldn't do? Yes. Actually, the red clay strays, if you haven't found this band, they are fantastic. They have a song on it. Really? They're this old, not a old, sorry, they're really popular.

Yeah. Southern United States band where they blend gospel music but like with a flare of like the Johnny Cash but it isn't Johnny Cash I'm trying to think of what what

it's just it's phenomenal I just played all the time it's like my kids are probably sick of it but I'm like it's just like it's just what he says in his lyrics I'm like yeah that's and you come back to this you know so you get to the top of the mountain if maybe you could ever even come so close yeah and you realize you can't you can't and why do i do the things i shouldn't do that's something

i wrestle on all the time it's good that's roman seven well thank you that's and it's a sanctification passage yeah that's right which means paul is talking paul is now moving into the i'm saved i know i'm saved but i still do what's bad why and so he goes into a uh discussion about law and says the purpose of law is to show me that even though I aim for Jesus, I miss. I fall short. You know, that's one of the definitions of sin. Well, and the thing that gives me a bit of peace in that is I'm like, imagine, imagine, you're in the time of Jesus. Yeah. And for Paul, yeah, he's literally right there, right there. And, you know, it changes you from I'm going to kill them all. Yeah. To, uh, I'm going to become the biggest champion. Totally. I will be killed for them. That's

right. Correct. And you're saying that. I'm like, oh, my. And, you know, I'm like, I got to, I, I stew on that all the time. Yeah. Because I'm like, I am by no means perfect. I know that I can say lots of things on the podcast that make me seem like this ideal family. I strive to be like as good as dad and husband as I can. But I fall short all the time.

All the time. It's irritating. You and me both. But at the same token, I'm like, but at the flip side, if Paul's falling short, I'm like, that's some pretty high company to try and even try and even get to it. Yes. And remember the end of Romans 7 where Paul has a little doxology almost where he says, thanks be to God, Jesus Christ, who rescues me from this body that is subject to death. So his conclusion is, you're right, I fall short all the time. I don't do. I do what I don't want to do. Who's going to rescue me, says Paul, from this body that is subject to all this evil? And then he goes, ah, here's a savior. You're right. So what's so fascinating is, you know, I was reading the other day that very famous quote where the man comes to Jesus and says, good teacher.

Jesus says, well, he says, why do you call me good? Yes. Right? So what's the teaching in that passage? I like sometimes flipping the interview on you and asking you questions. I never get to do it. No, that, BS. I'm like, no, I want, this is why I'm Tanner.

What's the teaching from that? Well, so the teaching is first. Jesus says, why do you call me good? No one's good except God alone. So the lesson is, Jesus is God. He doesn't rebuke the man for calling him. good he just asks him why do you call me good and jesus says no one is good but god alone imagine calling jesus good good good and then having him being like exactly what tanner just did to me what do you call me

good yeah i know i'm paying you a compliment right no but here's the second teaching i think which is maybe more hidden but i think it's there which is so jesus is the god man fully god fully man right he's not 50 50 he's not 90 10 he's 100% both that's the miracle of his incarnation but the teaching is look, just in his humanity, just in his humanity, I don't think anyone would argue that Christ would argue against the idea that Christ is the ultimate man, the best man. If there is a better man on earth, just in his humanity than Jesus, I'd like to meet him. I'd like to know who he is. And you know, even the religions, the various religions that don't believe in Jesus, argue this, right? Islam calls Jesus a holy prophet, right? And they recognize he was born of a virgin.

a lot of the Eastern religions say, well, Christ has Christ consciousness, right? He's this holy man. Buddha would probably call him a Buddha, or Buddhists would say, yeah, he's an incarnation of a Buddha, and so on. They all recognize that there's something unique and holy about Christ. So in just his humanity, if he is the best man who's ever walked the earth, which he is, and if he in his humanity is not willing to be called good, he says only God as good alone, then who are we as humans who are less than Jesus in our humanity to call ourselves good? So if the best man who ever walked the earth just in his humanity refuses to be called good, then you and I, who are certainly not as good as Jesus, just in our humanity,

also do not deserve to be called good. So the whole point we're trying to get to, this is the the gospel requires that man come to a point where he says, I am not good. I have something, there's something wrong here. Which is, isn't that an encouraging teaching, like the fall, story of Adam and Eve? Sounds very discouraging because man had perfection in Eden. Then he loses it. He forsakes it. He says, I disobey God. I will follow Satan instead.

He hands over the keys of his theocratic administration to the devil, to the end. Very bad. It sounds like a very discouraging story, but when you really think about it, it's encouraging. It's probably one of the most encouraging stories in Scripture, because what does it tell you and I? It says that there is something not right with this world. There is something fallen. The cancer, the pain, the lost child, you know, the miscarriage, the divorce, all of those sufferings are not the way things are supposed to be. We are not. some product of a random generation. We are not some materialist creature that is only composed of atoms and physics alone determines our reality. No, that isn't what the Bible teaches. It says

something is wrong here. There is a reason for suffering. There's an answer for suffering. And there's a savior who comes into Bethlehem named Jesus. Wild, hey? But no one is good, but God alone. And that one kind of, that one's a, that one is shocking. Do you think it's, you know, when we first started this three years ago. Yeah. I was like, is this what I'm doing? That's what I'm doing.

Second year, I'm like, yeah, this is what we're doing. Yeah, is what we're doing. Third year, I'm like, it's interesting to me how much talk of God there is now. Yeah, there is a lot of talk of God. A lot of it wrongly, but you're right. but even if even if it's wrong yeah

it means people are open to it which means it allows for discussion to happen where people can get it right which is good which is good which is good the truth is you're right that is good

the closer we get to Jesus's return the more wrong they're going to be believe it or not according to Paul though so you are right you can talk a lot about God which is great and then we can, you can have like Athanasius and Arias, you can have a battle, a clash. And what's so interesting is that when you have those clashes, orthodoxy rises, always. What we note in church

history is that it's always when the church is battling, usually within itself, that orthodoxy, correct doctrine, uh, is revealed. Is the church battling itself right now? Oh, yeah. Is it, you know, I, I've, I don't know. I just look at, so you see, I assume, you see, I assume, you see that realm. I see like the everyday society wrestling with this right now. Yes. Like immensely.

Yeah. It's both. So like what happens is the church will be challenged by something outside itself. The church seeks to answer it and then usually those within the church say you're not answering this right and you're not answering this right. Then they have a battle.

And then they have a battle. I think the same thing is happening right now. So what is the battle on right now? then. I actually think the battle right now is on the kingdom, the kingdom of God. And even if it's not, um, doesn't seem to be manifest, that there's a battle there is. So the kingdom of God is something that is confused in Christianity. And my view I recognize is not a majority view, to be totally honest. But that doesn't mean it's the wrong view. Because if it were true that only the majority view were right, well then Trudeau was the right leader. And a lot of, and a lot of lot of Christian heresy would have been correct, including the denial of the Trinity

because the majority of Christendom believed that Jesus was created for a long time until the Capodosians showed up, and so on. So that isn't quite reason enough for me to deny the doctrine. Here is the discussion. Some Christians, lots of Christians, even just in innocent ignorance, believe that the kingdom of God is here right now. It's present. A lot of big think thought this too, like Augustine and City of God and so on. To be honest, he's the guy that really propelled the belief forward. Other Christians like myself do not believe that the kingdom of God is here now because I look outside in the world. This is just one reason among many and I go to the world. To be honest, sucks. Like, you know, we can be happy in it and it's wonderful

to have a great family. Those are great. But when you look at the murders, the martyrs right now in Sudan, like RSF and all that jazz, you look at the situation in the Middle East, you look at slavery, You look at the, you know, what's the proper word, the slaughter of the unborn and so on, that has been happening for years and years. And I sit there and go, is this really what Jesus ruling on the throne looks like? I don't even know, once again, I'm, I guess I don't, I don't stew on that because I'm, obviously this isn't. Right. Because of all the things you just listed there, I could probably tack on 15. more, if not a hundred more. Okay. But now, in a lot of Christendom, they disagree and they say,

no, no, Jesus' kingdom is spiritualized. It's a spiritualized kingdom, and it's up to you and I as Christians to bring it in, to bring it in physically. We have to conquer power. We have to go take places in political positions. We have to do a lot of physical activities so that we can set up the physical manifestation of Jesus' kingdom, and he's already ruling right now. And you see this in a lot of church history, like Calvin. Calvin believed the kingdom of God was here now. And so Calvin, when guys disagreed with him, like Michael, what was it, Servitas, whoever's name was, right, had him executed. Because he said, you're not adopting my understanding, my, you're not living properly in the kingdom of God. We have to eradicate sin. Here's the idea. Okay, so like, even they're going

in church history. So no, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But that's a contradiction of itself. Yeah, you're right. It's kingdom of God is here. Yeah. But if you disliked, disagree with me we're going to kill you because we're going to usher it in. You're like, wait a second. So you're literally going to do one of the, go against one of the 10 commandments to usher. That doesn't make any sense. So they say it's here spiritually. And if you go against us physically. So it's here spiritually. They say we want it to come in physically. And it's our job to manifest it physically. So the early church, it's a funny thing. The early church was, you know, they were kind of split. Not split. When I say early church, I mean the fathers.

The truth is the church fathers, like Justin Martyr and Iranians and so on, they were all pretty vague. They were just trying to figure things out. Smart men, brilliant men, but just trying to figure a lot of Christianity out. A lot of the church fathers believed in what's called a chylastic worldview, which is they said there is coming a time in the future when Christ will reign for a thousand years in a millennium, a thousand years, and it's a physical reign. That's when the kingdom of God will come.

And this school of thought was pretty popular in Antioch, the school of Antioch. There were other church fathers who said, no, no, we're not quite sure about that, actually. We think those promises in the Bible for the kingdom to come, they're spiritualized. It's actually here now in the hearts of believers. And that was predominantly from the school of Alexandria, origin, Clement, and so on and so on, which is a different school. The two kind of had a battle. Eventually, after the church stopped being persecuted with Constantine, right?

Once the church was no longer persecuted in the empire, Christians said, maybe we actually are in the kingdom of God. Maybe origin and those older thinkers are right because we're not being persecuted anymore. Actually, Christianity is the religion of the empire. Our lives are getting better. Sure, maybe Christ really is reigning. And this was cemented by Augustine when he wrote. city of God. And Augustine being probably the most, not probably, he is the most influential

church thinker, you know, since the apostles. That cemented that belief in church history all the way until after the reformers, after Martin Luther and those guys, you know, it took a long, long time for any sort of different view to be uncovered. So they all said, yeah, we're in the kingdom of God now, therefore we have a right to manifest it physically. And that belief is becoming much more popular again today. It lost a bit of, it lost a bit of popularity in like the 70s and the 60s and the 80s kind of thing with that with like the Timothy Le Hay movement and so on. But now it's, especially with guys that are my age, it's becoming increasingly popular to say Christ is king, Christ is king, and let's therefore as his servants and as his soldiers go forth and manifest his physical kingdom.

But when you read the New Testament, you never once read that Christ is sitting on the David's throne right now. He's not. David's throne is a physical throne, promised. Christ is not said to be acting as king. Instead, right now he is said to be acting as a priest. This is in Hebrews. And he has the task of interceding on our behalf to Almighty God. So it's true that Christ will be king one day as far as the scriptures are concerned. He will sit on David's throne in a physical location, Jerusalem. But right, Right now, he is not yet acting in that position. So are there, are there, are there parts of that that makes, not make sense that are,

I don't know the word correct or whatever, but like if you go, Christ is king. Mm-hmm. Do we agree? Um, that's, I would say that's a, of course he's going to be king. I would say that is what's called a futuristic present statement. so Christ is 100% going to be king in the future yeah and like he is Lord over creation absolutely but if you're asking does he right now sit on a kingly throne and exercise kingship dominion over the world the answer is no like it's it's still this is Paul says we're living under Satan's

domain Christ acts as first he acted as a prophet when he came to the world the first time incarnation now he's acting as a priest he is interceding for you and i at god's throne and in the future he will take a seat like this on david's throne a physical seat in jerusalem so when you say christ is king it is accurate to say it's a futuristic present statement so it is talking it's something which is guaranteed but which does not right now take place and people say well you're a heretic you're a heretic. No, we're not saying Christ isn't Lord over all or anything. What I'm saying is you have to be so clear with that statement. Because when people say Christ is king, when the mainstream says it, what they mean is

right now Christ is ruling on the throne. Therefore, the world is being administered by Christ right now. And we want to bring in the physical kingdom ourselves. That's really the whole of history. It's just man trying to bring in his own kingdom. or to usher in God's kingdom. It doesn't work like that. When you read Daniel 2 and Daniel 7,

God's kingdom comes from heaven, not from the earth. And it comes to completely wipe out, revived Roman Empire and all the other empires in an instant. It isn't this gradual thing that takes place. You know, I never understood a lot of Christians, you might get flack for this podcast, but it's okay. I never understood a lot of Christians interpretation of Merry Christmas, folks. Merry Christmas.

of Daniel 2 and Daniel 7. You know the story of the statue, Nebuchadnezzar's dream. Nebuchadnezzar, the ruler of Babylon, one day has a dream. And the dream is of a statue, a great statue. Head of gold. And I'm going to get my ones, I think chest of silver, that's how it works, torso of bronze, and then legs of iron, and then feet of iron and clay. I think that's the order.

And Nebuchadnezzar says, I can't figure out this dream. what does it mean? So, of course, they call in Daniel. Here comes Daniel. Daniel says, well, I can't interpret it, but God can, and he will. And so Daniel says, the head of the statue in your dream represents your empire, Babylon. The next portion of the statue, the chest, silver, represents the next empire, Medo-Persia. The empire after that is Greece, torso. The empire after that, the legs of iron, Rome. And then the feet, iron and clay, represent the revived Roman Empire, another Roman Empire. And then at the end of Nebuchadnezzar's dream, a great stone is hurled from heaven. It lands at the feet of the statue. And it cracks the feet. And the entire statue comes

tumbling over. And that's the end of the dream. And Daniel says, of course, we know that that stone represents the kingdom of God, which is coming to wipe out the last empire. which hasn't come yet, to usher in a new kingdom. So I never understood why Christians interpret and understand the head, the chest, the torso, and the legs to all be physical. They're physical kingdoms. We know their physical kingdoms. Those prophecies have already been fulfilled. But when it comes to the feet, they go, no, no, it's a spiritualized kingdom.

That's different. It makes zero sense as far as I don't think it is a proper hermeneutic to try and interpret it that way. so this is this is a bigger fight than people realize right now within the church and the reason it matters is because your understanding of the kingdom will determine what you do today as a Christian will you like pastors like Rick Warren try and usher in a social gospel make the world a better place physically set up power structures to try and usher in the kingdom of God right now or will you carry out the Great Commission in Matthew 28, which is to go forth and not set up an empire,

but preach the gospel, right? You know, all authority's been given under me. Go forth into the world, teaching them to observe what I've commanded you, baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, and lo, I'm with you always, even to the end of the age. That's the command. And so your understanding of the kingdom will determine what you do. That's why it's so important.

There's a great book. if you're okay with it, I'm going to try and ask him to come on your show. The president of the school that I attend, the seminary I attend. His name is Andy Woods, and he's written a book called The Coming Kingdom. It's phenomenal. It's one of the most life-changing books I've ever read, like transformational. No, I don't want a phenomenal guest on this show. You know, that's just it.

I'm going to see if I can get him in contact with you. Brilliant. Theologian. Yeah, stunning, shockingly brilliant. Sounds like a great guest for 2026. He would be a phenomenal guest for 2026. Yeah. Phenomenal guest. And like, you know, yeah, this is a...

Yeah, I don't know if I can make this make sense. Not what you just said, but what I have sitting, stewing in my brain. So let me spit it out and we'll see what Tanner does with it. So as people, more and more people talk about God and specifically Jesus. Yeah. Then they go about this argument of proving that he really existed. or all the different things of proving. And I watched this, man, I keep spacing on who it was.

I want to say it was maybe a Carl Jung interview. Forgive me. It's one of those thinkers. Guy asked him if he believes in God, and he goes, believe. What do you mean? Do you believe in God? He is, and I don't believe. And you think that's the end of it.

And he goes, I know. And I don't know what. I've never looked into what Carl Jung or Freud or, you know, I'll list off all those guys from that time. But when I think of Jesus, that's exactly what I think. I go, I don't need to go watch 50 podcasts on it. I already know. Yeah.

So if I know, then I'm, you know, then I'm trying to aim towards them, you know, and I'm like, okay, that's a difficult task, impossible task. But he sends me out in the world. to do exactly what you're saying. Totally. So when you come back to this Christ is king thing. Yeah. I agree with you.

You have to, what are you actually saying? What are you actually saying? So if you agree that Christ is king in some future. Yeah. Doesn't that allow people to go out and fight for the beliefs of Jesus? don't know if I'm saying that right. I'm trying to, because I'm like, I feel like it's, I just am like, man, it's such a strange argument.

It is. Yeah. Like, I'm like, do you believe Christ is king? I'm glad you answer first because I'm like, yeah. Everyone's going to say, of course. But then when you say is he right now, well, no. Yeah. Right?

Like, I fully understand that. Yeah. I'm like, but it doesn't mean sit on my hands and wait. No, it doesn't. You're right. It doesn't. And that's Paul's argument of this isn't an excuse to be like, well, just wait for him to come back. I'm just going to sit here and do a whole lot of nothing.

This is what he talks about in Second Thessalonians. His argument there is, if you don't want to work, you don't get to eat. That's the rule. Because it's like, this is the point of Christianity. We have to get out of this mindset of, I will do good works so that I can have Christ. It's we do good things because we have Christ because we already believe in him. So why do we stand up for what's right? And yeah, often physically fight if necessary. It's because we've already been saved by Jesus. We already believe in him. Now, Jung's point is, or whoever it was, point is interesting. What do you mean, believe? I don't believe I know.

And it's like, well, demons know too. This is where, now, it sounds very pretentious, I know. Sure. Whenever Greek or Greek, whenever pastors or biblical students talk about the Greek, you go, oh, great, here they go again. Which is fair enough. You can be real pretentious. But in this case, it helps out a little bit. So what Jesus talks about in John and the rest of the gospels is you have to believe in me.

And the word for believe is pistu. well, that's the Greek word. And it comes from, the root of that word is pissed, P-I-S-T, and then there's a dash or a hyphen so that you can add whatever endings you need on to it. And that term in Greek just means have confidence in, trustworthy, convicted, or convinced, utterly convinced, confidence, and so on.

So to say, I know, that's one thing, But to actually place your trust in Jesus, to place your assurance in Jesus, that's a different thing entirely. I guess the reason I liked it, right? This is why I say I have no idea what he was actually. Maybe there was a whole bunch more there. Yeah. Is I don't need to be convinced. Right.

Yes. I already know. Sure. Totally. So I don't need to go watch 500 hours explaining that Jesus was actually who he said he was. Totally. I'm like, I read the Bible. Totally.

That's enough. And he's interacted in my life in ways that I'm like, I just know. Yeah. Like, you know, I don't need to spend any more brain matter or time. Yep. On figuring out if it's real. It's real. Yes.

Done. Totally. So do I believe? 100% I believe. Yeah. But I guess I was, in my brain, I was like, it's more than belief. It's like, I know. There's such a conviction, such a confidence in that.

It's like, you know, I couldn't. I don't think I could have somebody sit across for me and try and convince me otherwise. Yeah. Like, you can talk all you. want. If there's something I know, it's this. That's right. It's just, it's interactive in my life now when I'm like, holy mac and I don't know what I was doing before. Yep. I know exactly. So that's what I mean by belief and I know. Yes. And I just really enjoyed that now. And saying you then you bring up you need to believe. It's like, well, I almost think that's almost, but once again,

you have a lovely way of, wait a second. Let's let's poke it on that. Yeah. I just is like, yeah. I mean, you go back. Folks, go back and listen. The first time. me and Tanner talked. I mean, I think if Sean heard being hurt could go jump forward in the future be like, what did it? What happened on the next couple of years? It's going to be real interesting. It's a real roller coaster. But it's like the truth is there are two sides of the same coin where you have to first be persuaded of the thing in order to believe in it. So you first have to know that Jesus is who he claims to be. Then you can believe, right? It's almost a simultaneous, not quite but very close to a simultaneous event. Event. That's right. So once you know,

Then you go, okay, I put my trust. Oh, and I'm not, to me, if all those things weren't out there for you to read and interact with, do you ever get to, I believe and I know, or I know and I believe? Right. Because I agree, like how quickly those two things happen. Totally. It's almost instantaneous. It's almost instantaneous. Yeah, it's a one, two.

So I'm all for it. I just, to me, I'm, I've got to be careful here. Like, I just, I don't need to go explore. or a whole bunch more on, did Jesus actually walk the earth? Yeah. And was he, all these things actually done

and did it happen and all, I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if what's going on in my life is true, and I believe my, I don't know,

experience, like whatever I'm going to call it. Yeah. It's like, well, then everything else has gone on. Holy Macon. Yeah.

That's, that's a lot, right? That's why I like Paul's story so much. Totally. You go read that story. I'm like, holy, no,

what a story. What a story. And if that guy, I can struggle with those things, then surely you and I have, you know, ought not think that we're above the struggle for those things. It's, yeah, it's, like, there are examples of people who did know and refused to believe. Probably the clearest example of that of the Pharisees, right, with in Matthew 12, 13, and I guess, well, mostly 12 and 13.

Well, I was thinking of Nicodemus. And Nicodemus. And Nicodemus. Now there's a, I think he actually, I think, I think, I think Nicodemus does come, he does believe in the end later on. I don't know if it's ever recorded in scripture, but I think I'm almost positive. I look into that, but Nicodemus is a good example. But imagine having Jesus sit across. Yeah, and you're like, you're, so you're Nicodemus, the teacher of Israel.

And he, and you're like, holy mac, but in order to follow, you have to lose everything. Yeah, a strange paradox. But you gain everything. You gain everything. And if you don't lose everything, then you will lose everything. Yeah. In the end, yeah. Well, I mean, this is such a silly, silly example, but I think of COVID.

Yeah. In a more physical way than what we're talking about spiritually. Yeah. But there was a ton of people that were in in some, I'm going to lose my job, I'm going to lose this, I'm going to lose my social. Everybody's going to come for you. Totally. And yet, did you really? if you stuck to your guns and stayed true to who you were and went, no, I'm not going along

with this. I mean, it's only a few years later, and that isn't up in the case at all. Yeah. Yeah. Like, Thessalonians, they lost their jobs and stuff. That's why Paul wrote that thing. You know, we have all these prescriptions in scripture for all of these problems. That's just to say, oh, man again and again and again, it's just, it's, nothing's new under

the sun, says Solomon, yeah, or says the teacher in Ecclesiastes. So when Jesus comes, and when he's talking to Nicodemus, and even for that matter, when he's talking to the rest of the people preaching to them about the truth of belief, this is, again, this is primarily John's focus, right? It's believe, believe, believe. The theme is, look, I'm going to give you something which no empire can ever take away.

No employer can ever take it away. No family feud can ever take it away. No fight. No, it doesn't matter. no torturer no one can take this from you i'm going to give you a freedom that not even the richest man has which is an eternal freedom right this freedom in jesus christ and then paul expands upon it in the later gospels it's marvelous it's the most incredible it's the most incredible thing and that is that belief is the um it's the prerequisite for entering the kingdom of god

gives me a level of peace I did not know existed until a couple of years ago. Yeah. Mm-hmm. It does. I'm going to go back

to this in Nicole Murphy interview because Nicole, if I go back January of 2020 I think it was, we did an event in Eminton with Chris Sims and Byron Christopher

and Kitterson and Wayne Peters. I think that was January of 2023, if memory serves me correct. And Nicole was there and helped my wife and I with a bunch of different things internally on that event. And she said something very fascinating to me when I'm listening back to the interview. And people should go and, you know, if nothing else, watch that because she's asking me about creativity. But regardless, she says something that says, Basically, you've, there's just something noticeably different about you.

That's a compliment. That's a compliment. That's a Christian, yeah. And she's trying to, you know, it's cool to see people wrestle with that because I have wrestled with, what is it? Huh, something. Yeah. Because when you leave and go wrestle with that, I think you can find it. You know, there's a great song lyric.

When you go looking for the truth, it finds you faster than you think. Yeah, I would agree. Or faster than, maybe not you think, but it finds you fast. Yeah, yeah. It's actually a rap song of all things, which I got in chuckle about, but I hear it, and I'm like, that is so true. It is. If you just, wait a second, something's going on. Anyway, so she's pointing it out that you've changed.

I'm like, pretty simple. Yeah. Every morning I wake up and I pray, read the Bible. I mean, there's other things as well, but I mean, that's kind of become one of the most consistent things I do in life. and then all of a sudden all the stuff going on in the world all the noise Alberta getting independence

Alberta not getting independence I don't know yeah I don't know it melts in the face of the eternal Christ Ken Rutherford people will get to hear this

on December 31st you know we started this three years ago this is our third last year we started a year in review and so we did it again for December 31st so it's already recorded It's going to come out on December 31st. And he asked me what the low point of this year was.

I don't know. Maybe you got low points. I said, it was the only question that's stumped me. Like, I am. Man, you know, like we had a pet pass away. That sucked. Brought that up. And I'm like, are there low days?

Oh, for sure. But it's funny, I struggle with it even now. I feel like, yeah, there have been tough days. But overall, it's like as upset as I could get over any one thing I'm like we've already won you know like I mean that's right I think of you know like uh I that's a point Jesus is uh I don't know vision like built as this like meek man yeah soft spoken I know there's scriptures where he's certainly not yeah that's right but I'm like it in

my life, I feel like he is the baddest ombre in the best possible way. That's the kicker. Right? Like, baddest in the land. Yeah, he is. You know, like things are going wrong. I just lean heavily on him. Oh, yeah. And that guy, you know. He's the rock. That's the testimony, though. Like, what's, so Christians and bad, what's a low point? When the Christian looks at his year in review, what does he discover? If not that the low points turn out to be the high points. Because what does Paul say in 2nd Corinthians? What is it? 10?

I think it's 10, 3 to 5. Maybe. Either way, one of those, it's in 2nd Corinthians. Paul says, when am I strongest? It's when I'm weakest. So he goes, I glory in my sufferings, and I glory in my persecutions, and I praise God when I'm in my hardships, because it means I have no choice but to rely on Almighty.

It says, when I'm doing well, I have a tendency to not rely on him. And that's not good. He says, I'm much weaker then. When I'm weak, then I'm strong. So for a Christian. Another paradox. Another paradox. When you're at your low point, that's when God is there.

I mean, he's there all the time. But you're forced. You have no other choice, right? No atheist in a foxhole. That's the thing. When you're at a low point, that's when you call out to him. We should be doing it all the time. Yes.

But man has a tendency to go, when it's good, I don't need him that much. When it's bad, when it's bad, that's different. Now I need him. It should be. I need him all the time. but we don't do that so what happens well we have hardship and then we are drawn closer to the lord and that's marvelous so it transforms the low points actually into the high points where you see god move most explicitly often yeah in your life and the point that we want to get to is a place

where we're always you know relying on the lord whether the situations are good or bad we want to be like Paul, who said, I've learned to live with much or learn to live with little. Luxury or complete poverty. That's the goal. That's the dream. You know, for us here on earth. Yeah, as we eagerly await Christ to come back. It's exciting.

You know, it's, you're right, it is a marvelous peace and a marvelous hope. And that's what Peter says the purpose of the prophets are, even the Old Testament prophets. It's to give a hope. Something better is coming. If only for this life, says Paul in 1st Corinthians 15, we, We have hope in Christ. We are of most people, of all people most to be pitied. Because we suffer for the gospel, or, you know, certainly those in the Middle East and elsewhere

are suffering much more perilously than we are right now. But there are struggles that come with them. Well, I tell you what, you know, like when you look around the world, they're, we're pretty fortunate. It's as bad as Canada is. You know, and the leadership and the things being put in and on and on and on and on. And it doesn't mean it can happen here. No, you're right.

You're right. And we saw how fast it can happen. Yes. You look at some of the places around this planet. Yeah. And there are some absolute atrocities happening. Total atrocities. Sudan's a great example right now.

And then still not a lot of people are talking about it with the RSF. and they come in and they just kill for fun like they're monsters this has been happening in a lot of the Middle Eastern countries for how many years a lot of the African countries too people don't really know that yeah there is

and you know it's so interesting is that those are the places where Christianity is growing fastest it's not really growing here in the West probably the contrary it isn't growing in Europe it's growing in the fire which is the way Christianity works right

the persecutions increased the number. If Christianity grows in the fire, the tougher it gets here, you watch. You're right. Now this, yeah, this is, okay, so, Christianity grows in the fire. The tougher it gets,

particularly for Christians, yeah, the more that the church, and the more the church expands, and the stronger it gets. now throw a wrench into it what if the majority of people already believe they're Christians or a good number of them already believe they're

Christians and that they are doing the Lord's work Christ is king and you know it seems like everything's growing and growing and growing but what they're setting up actually isn't God's kingdom but the opposite we should have a whole not that I determine who's on your show but it would be so fun

to do a thing just on the kingdom because my my hypothesis I'm going to send you a paper that I wrote it's a longer one but it's I liked it it might be terrible well but I was still going to send it um who would you have on for a kingdom discussion discussion that woods guy Andy Woods he'd be the guy Andy Woods and there's a there's a I had a great prof humble man but but there's no way he's not a genius named Jeremy Thomas would somebody come on on the other side of it though probably it wouldn't be that difficult to be honest to find

ones who disagree because it's just it's pretty common these days yep it's pretty common sorry and I interrupt it's good no because that'd be a good discussion anyway what were we talking about the kingdom and oh building the wrong kingdom

yeah my thesis is those who are trying to build God's kingdom physically today are not setting up God's kingdom but are preparing to set up a different kingdom for antichrist even if they don't know it i think that when the church tries to build to build god's kingdom physically it just it completely so if you were it's not does what it's not supposed to do yeah if you were the devil okay that's a dangerous thought but you're trying your hand like when you have jesus on your side his hands are not only be tied behind its back it's like i don't know

He isn't even in the fight. He's blown from the ring. It's like, you, you, sir, I don't even know if you're allowed in the building. Yeah, you know, I don't know how that, you know, that, that, what analogy would give a perfect example of it. But the one thing I do not underestimate the devil on is how conniving and creative in a dark sense. Yes, brilliant he is. That's right. So you're saying, I think, yeah, okay, Christianity thrives in the fire, but wait, what if the fire is created by Christians and they're given, that's maybe a way to, yeah, I don't know, once again, I'll stumble on these words, a false doctrine or a false belief or whatever, in that we can actually create this and being applauded by Satan as you do because you're actually setting up the circumstances where you believe you're doing.

the right thing, but you're actually doing the wrong thing. And all you have to do is, you know, the only, once again, this will play in my mind for the rest of time. All you have to do is go back and look at COVID. And you go, we set up society to be the safest ever. We're all doing right. But by all doing right, we created the exact circumstances for the worst possible things to continue to happen over and over and over again. Yeah. Like, I mean, it's so fresh in my mind. Yeah. Until I'm 80, I'll probably lean back on that time over and over and over again. And so you're saying, yes, Christianity thrives in the fire. It does. But

but you have to read Matthew 13 in those parables. There's eight parables, four public parables and four private parables. So this is why you need a whole episode because there's so much to unpack. The rule of God's kingdom is in Deuteronomy 1715,

Israel believes in Jesus and therefore they make him king. They say you will be our king. The kingdom comes. kingdom is there. It's physically manifested. This is, yeah, Deuteronomy 1715, you will set a king over you of my choosing, of God's choosing. Jesus shows up. He says, here I am. I am the king of God's choosing. Repent because the kingdom of God is at hand. Meaning, change your mind, believe in me and put me on the throne. And if you do that, the kingdom of God will be now here.

It'll physically manifest. Fantastic. All you got to do is believe in me and put me on the throne. That's the rule. Israel does not do that. And their rejection is corporate Israel. Their rejection is complete with the Pharisees in Matthew 12, where Jesus is doing these wonderful miracles. And the Pharisees say, he's doing this by the power of Satan. Beelzebul.

He's actually of the enemy. And Jesus goes, that's it. I have shown you absolutely everything. And it is not sufficient for you to believe in me and to put me on the throne. So instead of the kingdom, now, which it was supposed to, there's going to be an interim age, a mystery age, there's going to be a church age, that none of the prophets in the Old Testament had anticipated. They had no idea about this.

This isn't to say this is God's plan B. Paul in Ephesians 3, like 10 to 15, says that actually this has been God's eternal purpose, but nevertheless, Jesus says, because you, corporate Israel, have rejected me and didn't put me on the throne, there's now not going to be the kingdom of God immediately, but instead in an interim age called the church age is going to appear. It's going to be here for a while. And then in the future, the kingdom of God will come. But regarding that interim age, regarding the church age, Jesus in Matthew 13 gives eight parables, four and four, eight parables that discuss what the church age will be like. One of those parables is what's called the wheat

and the tears. And Jesus says the longer, this is what he's saying in effect, he says the longer that the church exists, the more you're going to find true wheat, true believers, gathered with tears, unbelievers. He says, you won't be able to tell those two apart. You won't know who is who when the end comes. Don't worry about trying to separate them, though. I'll do that job. I'll come back, and I will divide perfectly those who really believe the wheat and those who refuse to believe, the tears. That's my task. Your job in mind, as Christians, is not to determine, are you saved, are you saved, are you saved, are you saved, are you imposter, are you not an imposter? Our point is to just go and preach the gospel. But the point is

that at the end of the age, the church age continues to mature, more and more unbelievers will enter it, and more and believers will distort it and destroy its intended purpose. They will make it or turn it into something that it's not supposed to be. So with all of these Christians today, supposed Christians who are talking about ushering in God's kingdom, it might well be that a lot of them really aren't saved. They don't believe, right? They have a totally different task, which is to help set up a different kingdom, even if they don't know it, which is why it's, again, so important to have a right theology regarding this doctrine. My actual conviction is that the entire scripture, the motif, the theme, the purpose of the entire scripture is a discussion. It's a, it's a

linear history and a linear future. It's a book about the kingdom. That's what I think it is after reading it. That's the conclusion I came to or I've come to with help from, you know, a lot of teachers. So when you read all of those Matthew 13 parables, is it all or most, probably just most, it's most. Most of them come to the conclusion that the church starts out strong, bang, big explosive growth. And then as it comes to a close before Jesus comes back, it becomes, comes marred yeah by impostors and i think we're seeing a lot of that already i think a lot of churches are not orthodox a lot of churches preach either what isn't true no it's just that they preach what isn't true joel osteen's church stuff like that big mega churches or churches that deny the divinity

of christ or the you know the eternality of christ all that jazz and now a lot of guys my age are saying we will enter Christendom to launch a conquest, a physical conquest, wipe out all of those powers that we hate. We'll do it under Christ's banner, even though that isn't the plan that's laid out in scripture. So then I wrote Antichrist 2030 to say Antichrist comes, I believe, as a counterfeit Christ. So they'll say there's the Messiah. kingdom set up yeah

again I know that you know you preach this view online you're mocked like you are mocked for it whatever it's not probably you're mocked for you would be for preaching

that the kingdom is not here yet in the 70s and the 80s you wouldn't have been even probably in the 2000s you wouldn't have been but things are different now or they're changing. Yeah. And again, a lot of it might be out of an earnest belief to, like it might, I'm not saying that all those guys who proclaim that are intentionally deceptive

or wicked or, no, no, right? I mean, some might be, but that's true in every area. It might be that this is just what people really think and they're so sick and tired of all of the evil that's in the world. Fair enough. You look at all those powers that hate us and you look at what so many governments are doing, I'm eager to try and watch those governments fall too. Yeah. But the scripture says that will only come by Christ's hand, not by mine or yours, which is, that's good, because if I did it, then I would ruin it, right? If you and I had that power to sword, we would turn it into something monstrous. That isn't to say we don't act, we aren't active in the political atmosphere, right? That isn't true either. We are called to do good works because we're Christians. And one of those good works

includes restricting evil and the advance of evil and that can in large part be or hopefully be achieved through a political vessel a righteous leader trying to influence government to make righteous policy no problem with that there is a problem with brandishing the sword and saying I will now usher in Christ's kingdom and those who don't submit will right go to the guillotine yeah once again you know it's like uh i i just don't even know what to say because i i look at it and i'm like i'm just removed from those conversations right i don't i don't find anything you just said to be that offensive oh i'm sure there are some people that are offended oh yeah yeah that's yeah that's right but one of the i once again i'm going to i go

I've been trying really hard with the podcast to not let anyone comment because you know when I think about it I get like 99 positive comments always get the one now where people are like you're an idiot or whatever and I'm human so those bug me

totally because I do want to know you know what it well okay interesting but I've been working really hard to be like when does it matter oh yeah you know totally what does it really matter what one person you know like it's it's it's I go back to aiming at the aim at the mountain top so like that's what matters what matters is like who you are around your your your your wife and kids and what you're doing really matters your relationship

with God really matters keep the eyes focused on Christ that's the rule yeah Christ loves you Christ has come down it's Christmas Merry Christmas He's come down to earth, it in part to demonstrate that love, but more so to be our saving sacrifice and resurrection, that we might now have eternal life in Christ, right? This is all Ephesians too, that we should be able to now participate in godly good works because we're saved, and that we should even be able, according to 1st Peter 1.4, participate in the divine life, not that we become gods, but that we participate in his life. miraculous marvelous so what do we give a rip whether some man comments or a few people comment

you know so-and-so you're an idiot or so-and-so this and that well the thing is is in today's world i don't even know if they're real people that's isn't that the truth i mean i know like is it a bot i know because i get lots of those sure so do i so it's like at the end of the day i can't decipher it the only thing i can decipher is if somebody comes up and says you're an idiot sure that that's pretty okay self-explanatory yeah that one's clear yeah but otherwise what of it you know it's I find most, a lot of people avoid me now. Yeah. That's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's been an interesting stage in life.

Sure. Where people just avoid you. Yeah. Eye contact, everything. Everything. You're just like, hmm. Yep. Sure.

And that again is unsurprising for a Christian who, who, who is public about his Christianity. So you have people that avoid you. Sure. Sure. Totally. And even, there'll be other Christians who will avoid. Christians because of views on the kingdom or what might have you? Absolutely. Or views on rapture, that's a big one. People get very passionate about that debate and so on. Yeah.

But that's what, you know, you want to have an open debate that's great. But yeah, the avoidance, that's, I mean, look at Jesus's life. Look how many people avoided him or turn their eyes. Like Isaiah says he has a face that, you know, if a mother would tell her child to stop staring kind of thing. Don't look, don't look. He isn't exactly that beautiful emperor that you might expect him to be, at least not in his first coming. He's coming in glory again, but in his first coming,

he wasn't dressed in a purple robe, you know, with a gold shirt. So the way Hollywood portrays him isn't exactly correct. No. Handsome is the wrong word, physically handsome. When it comes to his first incarnation, yeah, according to Isaiah, it's the wrong word. Plain, normal, nothing, nothing, nothing seems. seemingly extraordinary about him.

That's how to, that's how to, you know, if Hollywood portrayed him quote unquote accurately, now that I don't think you can, of course, but anyway, suppose that you did, you would find the most, I don't know, you would never ever in a million years pull this person from a crowd. If you did, you'd say, you look a little odd. To star in a movie. That's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right.

Not a nice jawline. Big muscles, no. just plain old ordinary Jesus you know who would have thought of it that to me is what probably one of the strongest arguments for Christianity is that you know it's not it's not just fabricated because I don't who would fabricate this story like who even it doesn't matter if it's Dickens or Hemingway or Dante or Milton you know with these magnificent imaginations I no one would have formulated a story like Christianity, like the story of Jesus. And certainly not some fishermen.

Not that fishermen are less, but their goal is not to be writers. They're not to be storytellers. You know? So one, for a fisherman to fabricate the greatest story ever told is probably, you know, not particularly feasible. Two, for a bunch of fishermen to tell the same story, which is the greatest story ever told, in different regions around the world, is probably also pretty improbable. And then three, the story itself is you couldn't fabricate it.

You know, you couldn't. It's too opposite everything anyone would ever design. The king would be victorious in the end by, you know, overcoming pilot. and I don't know, you look at all the differences, our regular storytelling versus Jesus. He wouldn't have been subjected or, you know, yeah. Was a question on Saul, was Saul a man of men, or was he something else?

What do you mean by a man of men? Well, you just labeled off how, or rattled off how Jesus was as ordinary as it gets. Yes, I see. Well, Saul was a Pharisee. So he was a lawyer, a scholar, a learned, man. He was brilliant. He would have memorized the first five books of the Bible. It seems like he had a memorization actually of all the scriptures, to be honest, the way he quotes him. So he actually probably would have been from a wealthy family, to be honest. Yeah,

because he was, he received training from Gamma Mail, who's like the teacher of teachers in Israel. He was, Gammael was given a name, I think it's rabbi of rabbis, I think, that only seven rabbis have ever been given. I think it's seven. Don't quote me on the number, but it's a very small number of teachers in Israel have been given that title. So Paul was trained at an elite school. He was a Harvard graduate kind of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what I mean. Yeah. He had all the titles. All the titles. He had all the power. Which means, which he means he had the wealth. So he dressed himself a certain way. Very well. You know, people knew that Saul was at Stevens martyrdom because they knew Saul, but also he was dressed different. You're right. He was a rabbi. He was this brilliant man. He was

this. Yeah, I don't mean he was Hercules. No, he wasn't Hercules. No, you're right. But he was, he might have been, you know, I don't know what his face looked like and all that jazz. But he was, he was a man of, he would have been a man of political, legal, educational, stature. And you see that in Paul's arguments. One of my favorite stories in the Bible, this is a little bit of a rabbit trail off Christmas.

But Paul is brought before a council in Jerusalem, you know, and of course, they always do this. They bring him before a council and say, what are you doing? What are you doing? Why are you doing this? Should we beat you some more or no? Anyways, Paul's brought before a council, and the council is composed of Pharisees and Sadducees. Pharisees believe that there is a resurrection coming.

Sadducees do not believe that there is a resurrection coming. Yeah, because they're sad, you see, because there's no resurrection. Anyway, and so Paul is... Some teacher told you that one point of time. You better believe it, of course. Anyway, so there's Paul standing before them, and they start investigating. And here's Paul's brilliance. And they go, so what are you up to, Paul?

You know, why, why are you disrupting everything here? And Paul goes, I don't know, I was just, I was just teaching about the resurrection. By doing that, the Pharisees go, oh, well, we like the resurrection. And the Sadducees go, there is no resurrection. And the two sides in court begin to fight it out. They begin to battle. And Paul's basically let off because the two sides are so busy scrapping over whether there's a resurrection or not that they kind of dismiss Paul. so you see Paul's legal brilliance and his construction of argument in his life in the acts

and in his writings if you want to see how to construct a successful argument that is basically infinitely layered read Romans which you have genius it's five parts first part is I mean okay so you got the introduction introduction then you have the condemnation of all men condemnation of good Gentiles condemnation of bad Gentiles and condemnation of law-abiding Jews. All men are condemned. Then you have a section on justification. Here's how all men are saved from their condemnation.

Then you have a section on sanctification. Here's what men do after, or what they should do, after they're saved. Do good works. Then you have a section on glorification. Here is what's coming for men who are saved. Resurrection, physical resurrection and all the sins taken away. Then you have a section on vindication, Romans 9 to 11, talking about the proof that you,

you and I will experience the resurrection. And then finally you have a section on application about how to live today in light of all of this knowledge that we've just been given. Oh, that's a stunning book. Yeah. People think, oh, yeah, I think it's the Holy Spirit wrote all the books. So they're all brilliant. But Romans are something special.

I don't know. It's anyways. You can't say there's something special about Romans because every book is special because every book is. It's funny. I love how your brain, I think this is why people, including myself, enjoy having you on. right you have this brain for like details i'm picking them up i'm more of the uh what do i like saw yeah because he comes paul how does he become paul yeah and you look at that and you're like

that's that is a wild story that is a wild story and you know merry christmas everyone we're all over the map today i in ottawa i don't know if i saw jesus i don't know if that's possible because I'm like I don't can Jesus come back you know like he doesn't come back till the end so I'm like that I got to wrestle with that but I believe I saw I don't know Jesus I don't know how to better to say it I'm like what is how does that happen I don't that doesn't make any sense and then I read Saul turning to Paul yeah I'm like oh there's nothing new under the sun now let's be very clear I'm not trying to say that what happened happened to, Saul happened to me, or Paul happened to me.

Just that I got the micro light dose of what happened to Paul. Sure. I'm like, wow, that's something. And I guess my brain focuses on the overarching story. Yours is a lovely brain that focuses in on details. And don't get me wrong, I find lines. And then I'm like, man, I got to text Tanner. I'm like, what do you think of that?

because you go into like the you pull the line out and then you got like this ability to go through almost the legal framework of it and all the different historical context i my brain always goes wow what a story like what a what a way for jesus an ordinary man to take one of the most learned Harvard uh you know i just i just respected he's walking down the street and everyone's like there's salt look at that guy exactly what they're doing and and and they're praising him for the persecution of Christians. Keep doing the great work, Saul. You're doing great. It's amazing. You know, oh, yeah? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. We're going to put an end of this. Yeah. Right? You're walking down the road? Yeah. Hello, Saul. How are you doing?

That's exactly. Yeah. And then you go blind. Yeah, that's exactly right. And, well, that's exactly right. What else do you say to it? I don't know. Hello, Saul.

How are you doing, basically? I, like, to me, if you're like, Like, if you're listening to this, you're going to think we're both nuts. Or you're wrestling with it. You know, my advice, and I don't know, you probably have, my advice always is. I'm sure you have your thoughts. I'm like, you want the easiest thing to read that it doesn't, in my opinion, these are poor words to choose for the Bible, that doesn't ram it down your throat if you would. Go read Proverbs.

It's like the best wisdom anyone has ever written. I feel like all wisdom comes directly from brawvers. You take any one of those lines and you can go write a book. Yeah. And there it is. And just do it daily. And I promise you your life is going to get better because it's just like, huh, I don't know, huh. Yeah, okay.

But then, but then, if you're like me and, you know, you're struggling with, I don't know, Jesus, I mean, whatever, go read the story of Saul. Like I, the gospels are amazing, but the story of Saul. I'm sitting there and I still remember it. I was sitting there. I texted or maybe called one of the Stefan brothers. I can't remember it was. Or maybe it was just a Thursday morning meeting. I'm rolled in and I'm like,

do you realize? And they're laughing at me because, you know, I'm sure if you've been reading the Bible, like, yeah, we know, we've been trying to tell you. I'm like, no, no, you've got to go read that. You go read that story and you think about it for a while. Just think about that. Like, wow.

Right? And then you bring in a guy like Tanner to give you all the historical context of Saul and all the things that go along with it to prove that the other that that went down you know that that went down that is something that went down because that is a that is a story yeah and if you can if you can partner all that with john it makes all the sense so paul's story is just a gospel lived out man who was bad right who was fallen now is saved and that's what paul says in first timothy he goes first timothy one 15 to 16 he says i am the example

for everybody else. So when a man says, oh, I'm too bad to be saved, you go, no, no, because actually Paul was saved and he was worse than you. 100%. So if Paul can be saved,

you can be saved. Yep. So the proverbs are written by the word. John tells us who the word is, and then the word is, the word, of course, it's in John,

you see Christ all the time, but also in Paul's story. You see how that encounter looks. And then from that encounter, we get the bulk of the New Testament. And from other, John sees Jesus more than, or not John, well, him too, but Paul sees Christ more than once. It's called up into the third heaven, all that jazz.

Yeah. I guess the one that sticks out to me is on the road side. It is, it is. That is probably, yeah, it's like one of the conversion stories in Scripture. Stranger on the road to Amas is a, there's a book by a guy named John Cross. That's another good one after Jesus' resurrection. But Paul's story is so striking because, it's so abrupt.

One day you're off to go persecute Christians in Damascus at that moment. One day you're off to go kill Christians. Not persecute. I mean, yeah, well, you're right. It's both.

Yes, you're right. What is he actually doing? He's going to go kill them. He's going to go kill them. That's right. This guy is literally wiping him off the face of the earth. That's right.

With every understanding that he's doing God's will. Correct. And then Jesus shows up and says, why do you kick against the goads? Meaning why are you struggling against that, which already is arrested you, basically. And Paul recognizes his grave mistake. And then what does he do after he's baptized by his name's escaping me,

starts with an A, Ananias. So Paul recognizes his mistake, his sin, believes. As a demonstration of that belief, Ananias baptizes him, and out he goes. Oh, Paul goes. He visits for a bit, and then he goes into seclusion, Paul, for years. to study. Isn't this fascinating? People don't know this. I think that it's wonderful when Christians proclaim the gospel. That's our command. I'm so excited. Once, when you believe, it is important, though, to know what you're going to proclaim first, because the world's a ravenous wolf.

Eat you alive if you're not prepared. So even Paul, who is this man who knows the Old Testament better than you and I probably ever will, to be honest, any of us really ever, like that guy would, like he knew it inside and out, right? The first thing, he does after his conversion is he goes into seclusion and he begins to study studies for years years and years so that when he emerges more publicly he is prepared to deal with the attacks he's prepared to deal with the arguments he's prepared to deal with all of those uh you know debate and discussions that rise because and people often glaze over this like paul he's going against the big heavy philosophical guns in Athens, right?

And in the Roman Empire. He's not just sitting in his room doing nothing for 30 years as he meditates. No, he's going up to Mars Hill. He's going to the schools and so on. And he's debating these things vigorously. And he does a very good job of it. And even in spite of Paul's good job, people rejected. I don't know.

So you go away. and although you're studying when you think about that although he's studying yep for sure yeah I guess the way I would say it is he's trying to figure out who he is probably that too yeah

he's doing all those things you think of all the things you've been doing up to that point because you knew yeah and now you don't know that's right so you're studying but you're also trying to figure out completely changing your worldview. Yeah.

Like, and it's, that's why. This is, this is, this is, this is, this is,

this is what I was trying to explain. I probably did a poor job explaining it to Nicole Murphy. But so much of us get focused and by us,

I mean media, social media influencers, that realm of people on what we get online. Yeah. When we should actually be focused on what, honestly,

what Paul, what you're talking about. which is like actually like who am i who that's yeah what a question and what do i want to actually do and how do i actually aim to go there what a question who am i yeah and like i think i said this on your last show lately my motto has been i don't get my theology from twitter or facebook or or or or mostly the mostly the most dangerous social media platforms for you know um working out one's theology are the ones that are quick, like Twitter or X, whatever. Those ones are tough because it's a three-second sound bite or a 20, a two-minute clip that tries

to encompass thousands and thousands of pages of writing on a particular subject or long chapters in the Bible that require long meditation. I tell you, I'm flipping subjects here for a second. It seems to be a theme of today. I finally finished C.S. Lewis. Mere Christianity. Yeah. Yeah.

and well there's there's parts where I'm like man this is like it's almost like a train yeah they're shoveling coal trying to get it to move and you're just like okay can we get to the point and then there's like four hours I listened to it yeah yeah four hours of absolute I had to pause it I had to rewind it I'm probably the four hours it's kind of like reading the Bible actually where you hit where you hit a line and you get stuck on it for a week. Yeah, and you're thinking and thinking.

There's like four hours where I kept like, I got to go back and listen to that again. Like, what did he just say there? Brilliant, right? Brilliant. I know. Like, there are some things that Lewis, with Lewis I disagree with.

But a lot of his apologetics are shockingly good. Read the miracles next. I love miracles. It's my favorite, that's my favorite argument for Christianity. It's called The Argument from Reason. Yeah, it's a very good book. Miracles. So, like, and again, you don't want to criticize Lewis because, again, he's a brilliant man who did so much for Christianity.

One or two things, yeah, theologically, I'd say maybe not quite, but, but man, his appall- I feel bad even just saying that, but his apologetics are, yeah, brilliant, humble man, way smarter than I'll ever be. I was just trying to see if, you know, when I was listening to it, I normally jot down notes. Yeah. because I was thinking as I was finishing I'm like oh I should talk to Tanner what are you got yeah because it's been some years

since I've read mere Christianity I should read it again but I'm trying to think of where on earth did I even stick that somewhere you're very important no Lewis he's brilliant I read another book by Chesterton

the other day no not the other day a little while ago who was the guy who influenced Lewis and I wouldn't call Chesterton a theologian but he's a good essayist and he was the book was called

the man who was Thursday and I'm trying to figure out whether I spoil it for you or not because I think you should read it it's a fun read oh we'll see it's a great ending that has to I think it

anyway it's an apologetic too but same sort of thing where you know this is what's so neat about Christianity is it's possible for us to disagree theologically with some things with some people and still love what they've done in other areas and be able to use that

you know the prime difference with Christianity compared to all the other religions is that we don't follow a particular man, you know, just a holy teacher, we follow Christ, and our test of whether or not that person is preaching what's true is scripture, right? That's our ultimate standard, our ultimate foundation of right and wrong. So anyone, Lewis, Chesterton, Sperry Chafer, Warfield, you know, myself, you, whatever, we can utter statements. they might be very smart statements they might be very stupid statements we utter a statement and it

might be a brilliant apologetic or theological insight excellent how do we know it's brilliant well we test it against the scripture and see if it aligns with it you and i after making that statement can make a second one which is dumb and is totally false and not right how do we know well we test it against scripture and so what i mean to say is all of these men we have the great privilege of learning so much from them, but also guaranteeing that their work is either right or wrong based on scripture and Christ. So Lewis has this miraculous ability to make difficult concepts easy for the layman for you and I to understand. I don't know how he does it. He's just a good, he's just a great writer. Chesterton less so. His writing is more confusing, but a lot of

his paradoxes are enlightening. Other guys like Sperry Chaffer, who is a Theologians started at Dallas Seminary, Warfield. I don't know, who else is some big, like systematic theologians, Bavnik, all these guys. They write these huge books, you know, volumes and volumes of systematic theology. Bart is a good example, Carl Bart. And their stuff is dry. Like you read and go, oh, man, the printing is small,

and there's a lot of it on one page, and you go, geez, but the insights there are brilliant, right? Those guys are brilliant, brilliant men. And so, see, and I think a brilliant man is somebody who can take a text that thick and put it into something like that, which is probably Lewis's brilliance. Yeah. I would say so. And now, Einstein talked about the difficulty of this, where he goes, usually we have two options.

Either you take a text like this, make it like this, and then you give the reader an impression that he or she knows what she's talking about. after reading a simplification. Or he says you take a text that could be this and you make it this and nobody reads it, even though it's good. So he goes, the difficulty that we as he's talking about scientists,

but philosophers and theologians and mathematicians and so on try and grapple with is, can we take this, condense it into this in a way that doesn't oversimplify. Give the audience the idea that they know everything. That's right. good luck really hard the book that does it the best is the Bible and well and in fairness

in a busy world where you're busy all the time what do you want you want this and you want to understand something totally totally totally I'm no different totally so neither am I especially being raised in a social media age bang bang bang I want it quick what I'm learning now is that you don't get yeah but you get you get asked questions I get ask questions all the time like you know like do you think probably that the big one for for um where we sit you know Alberta referendum yeah independence yeah it's like that's it you I mean I've spent a lot of hours with a lot of different guests discussing exactly that yeah you know and to try and like simplified oh yeah referendum yes vote we're out totally

probably nothing that's what people want you're right but it never works like that and you're like i don't need that's what i mean that's a very simple Einstein's talking about things that i can't even wrap my brain around today as we're recording this episode i am very curious uh you know what as i sit here and think about it i don't think the phone has dinged at me once probably means people are just head scratching i interviewed a lady from she's a poleless pole neurologist, no neuroscientist. Oh man, she has too many degrees. They're talking about they've already done it, an artificial brain. All right, already scary. That is used for energy for AI. Okay. Because AI is very power consumption is off the charge of it.

Yeah, right. And so what she's saying is over the next decade, the cost to use AI is going to go through the roof so that basically people can't afford it. And so they're building an artificial brain that will be a million times more efficient power-wise to power AI. I don't even know if I fully understand. No, I don't either. It's like 40 minutes of me asking probably the dumbest questions ever.

I'm like, I don't even know if I fully comprehend what the heck you're talking about. Neither can I. I don't know that I want to comprehend it. You know, it's, that sounds like the, I've never seen it, but it sure sounds like the Matrix. That's almost the exact same thing, right? Where except unless, instead of artificial minds, you used full body. Full body mind, right? And like real minds to power the matrix.

Yeah. Well, that's a. To power the machine world. The Matrix was the world for all the, bodies to live in. Right. You know, like the economically, an economist would say, well, if AI becomes prohibitively expensive, either, well, if AI becomes prohibitively expensive, people won't buy it. That is a signal then to AI that nobody wants it. And if AI wants to be competitive, it will have to find alternative energy sources to once again become competitive and lower the cost.

Now, there's no moral discussion there. You have to have a moral discussion then too, and you have to say is what we're doing to compete, moral or not moral. So as making an artificial mind or whatever it might be, is that a moral thing to do in the name of acquiring some resource? Yes or no. Then you have a discussion. And where are we going to find that answer as to whether or not it's moral? Well, we should go to the scripture. Otherwise, it's just a subjective morality. Yeah. What a Christmas discussion. I'm how this is fun. You know, if you're opening gifts and putting this on the background or something, you know, if you want something. Something to talk about to the dinner table, you know.

What do you think about the artificial brains that are coming up for AI? Ten years. Wow. They said if funding, she said, sorry. And, you know, maybe they're off on a year or two or who knows. But, you know, like this thing is in prototype. You know, I forget how small it was. Three millimeters.

That's the brain they're using. Yeah. So you can imagine, yeah, you can just think about that, how small that is. But she's like, funding, if we get the funding in 10 years, we'll have this. If you go in a decades time, shocking. You could have an artificial brain powering AI. I can't even fully wrap my brain around. That's how my entire interview went.

I'm like, I don't even know what I'm listening to. No, and then you've got to wonder what online stuff is going to look like in 10 years. You know, who did I confide in the other day? Oh, I was on a podcast called the Sanctify Israel Ministries podcast. New guy, he's a new guy's out. His name was Jonathan, and for the life, make I remember his last name. I feel terrible about that. Anyways, friendly, great guy, really friendly, really nice.

And I think I was talking to him. I think it was him. Anyways, I was saying how when I was younger, you always used to get a little envious of podcasters and so on, or online, you know, commentators that exploded onto the scene quickly and grew fast. Now, the older I get, the more I learned two things. The first is, I'm thankful that didn't happen to me, especially when you read about Paul. because there is just so much I don't know and it's so much better to take the Lord's time to study what he knows that you need to do

to accomplish whatever task he has given for you to do looking back on it I'm very glad I wasn't this I'm still not but you know this big million plus follower a commentator when I was 20 I can't I can't even begin to think of a stupidity that I would have preached and thought I was being smart second that's not true for everybody but it certainly was true for me second i am so convinced that even though you know uh the online presence is so critical i think it's going to become more

and more important to have the in-person meetings the in-person discussions sitting across face to face because it will become increasingly difficult to know what's real you've seen it with the ai videos how many videos now it's it is a year ago yeah it's easy to distinguish AI from not AI videos. Now it's hard. It's really hard. It's getting harder. You can still, if you kind of squint and look, you go, yeah, okay, it's fake. But there have been more than once that I've been, I was talking with a buddy who's like my age or a bit older or a bit younger. And they go, look at this. And I go, you know, we'll go, is that real? And you kind of got to think for a second. Give it a year's time. Give it 10 years time. Give it 10 years time. Guys on trial for, you know, some crime. And oh, look,

here's some video evidence that was found of him committing the crime. I or not. You know, if you weren't a Christian, the truth is I'd be terrified. Very scared if I weren't a Christian. Yeah, probably. I would be. When you just look at the, first you look at the malevolence of so many governments. You look at what man is capable of. You look at how fast society capitulates to what those malevolent men in power demand last five years. And, you know, I'd say there isn't much hope outside of the world, if this is all. all that there is, just the way things are. But as a Christian, I say, no, Christ is coming back. And all of this is going according to plan, even though it seems bad. And, you know, it is bad. All of the

sickness and the pain and the artificial stuff that, you know, would imprison people or whatever it might be. Yeah, that's bad. But it's part of God's divine, ultimate, grand design. Yeah, this always comes back to the part of the conversation where I'm like It is hard And again, sin isn't part of God's design It should be more accurate on that No, no, no, no, no, no, no, you're right No, no, no, no, no, that isn't where I was going to go on you this time

Where I was going to go was I wish you could just see where you're going, you know Don't you? Sometimes you do Like, I'm like, don't you? You want me to be in the middle of the bush? Yep. Actually, I like being out here. So do I.

But I'm like, of all the spots, this. I'm like, really? Okay. All right. All right. You know, okay. And there's some, I think, you know, I should clarify this. There are some very big things coming in 2026 that I have not announced that in very due time I get to announce that I'm very excited for. But I still go, I'm like, man, is that what? Is that what? Is that? where I'm going. You sound like most profits, yeah. Well, I don't, except I don't think I'm any profit, right? You're preaching the truth. Well, you're just chasing the truth. Or chasing it, which is a noble enterprise.

Chasing. A noble enterprise. I don't think I'm preaching. Most of the time, folks, I'm still trying to figure out which way to walk, you know? That's a lot. I know which way to walk. It's whether I'm going through the 10-foot snow or if there's a easy street to just, you realize you could just step over here and you're on the sidewalk.

Do you realize you could just go and make a lot of money somewhere, get into the patch, which is fine if that's what you've been called to do. But if you've been called to something else, if God called you to something else, you have an obligation to do it. And if you don't do it, even though you might conceive of a life that's far better, it won't be. It'd be much worse, actually. Right.

So, like the prophets, it seems scary and big steps to take. But they're exciting. This is what, you know, you always talk about Lord of the Rings. It's the adventure. Oh, no. You know, that's the kicker. The adventure is, uh, yeah, there's never a dull day. Never a dull day.

Never a dull day. No one captured that like Tolkien did. I've told you this before, but one of the first things I prayed after accepting Jesus. Yeah. Was, can we just not, I still remember it, sitting on the back deck, can we just make sure it's not boring? Won't be boring. It won't be boring.

No. Well, that's, you know what, the kicker. Chris, sometimes it might be, though. You know what? Christians, yeah, actually they'll find the opposite, and especially in that waiting period, that wilderness time, then it can seem boring. I bet Paul got bored. I bet Moses got bored. I bet Joseph got bored in prison. You think so? Oh, yeah. You know what? And no, I'm convinced, absolutely, because that's the core teaching of Ecclesiastes. It's so easy to be bored in those situations. You know, I think farming is great, but I feel like herding sheep for

40 years might get a little repetitive, especially when you were a prince. I don't know. When you were a prince. Because there would have been a level of peace of not being in the crap. You're probably right, unless you're right, but maybe Moses wanted to save him from all that. Yeah, sure, sure. But going out and tending the flock and coming home to your wife and kids.

Pretty nice. And you kind of look back over the year, and it's like, man, it was just a good year. You're right. No, I don't disagree there. And I, you know, as much as you want to be hurled back into whatever. You're right. You go, man, if this is what life is, it's not so bad. It's not so bad.

You're right. It's pretty darn good. And that's a pretty profound thought. And then he goes, wait a second. Just when you're like, you're done. You're comfortable. You're out. You're out.

Now I'm going to send you there. Yeah. And now we're going to have some, oh, I don't know. don't know if God would say fun, but you know, like now, you've been waiting for it. Here it is. No, you're right. You're like, really? Come on. I just want, can't I just walk in and we just walk? No. You know, you think of Moses

had to, you know, like, I mean, let's go to the core of Moses and Pharaoh. They're essentially brothers. They're essentially brothers. It's a different Pharaoh, but basically still brothers. When you go through that, he loses his firstborn. Yeah. So now you've watched your nephew die. Yeah. And she go, you know, there's some boring times.

No, I think he's going, I wish I was back and just ten in the flock. He probably was. Now, you're right. The point I mean to make is, I think it's important to realize people don't naturally have this understanding that that sort of life is a good life. So I think it would have, you're right. Like there is a wonderful piece that that surrounds that sort of existence, farming, working with your hands, doing what Paul would call a peaceable life.

And that's a very good thing. But the reason the ecclesiastes are written is because, and even today, look, everyone wants to be rich and they want to be a big social media star and they want to do something great with their life. You're talking directly to me. Totally. Right?

Like, do I want the podcast to go to the moon? I don't know. I think so? Yeah, sure. I think if that were to happen, that means more people are being informed on what's actually happening in Canada. Heck, if you're sitting here on Christmas Day

and there's a million people. I don't think either one of us would be like, would be very upset at all. You're right. Tuts of people tuning in to Jesus Christ talk on Christmas Day. What a wonderful thing. Yes. But as it stands now, again, especially a younger generation, we want to be big, like, you know, do something great, make a lot of money.

Most people hate their jobs. You know, the jobs are boring. And that's what they do. And so Ecclesiasty says, look, you got more money, more headaches. You've got more capital or more physical. capital more headaches who do you give it to you know you want all these great things you want to be king good luck i was you know i know what it's like it's it's hard and there's a huge stress that's placed on you so instead of trying to chase the next biggest thing and instead of trying to be this huge rich social media star just live that peace of a life then you won't be so bored like you know you have a

level you have a level understanding that most people don't have with regards to a quality of life to say that most people don't understand that a simple life is a good life. Yeah, but I say that and then I sit in this studio and people are probably like, that isn't that simple of a life, right? You've built, you know, most, no, I shouldn't say most. I think I say that, but I also now live a life that isn't doing what I, you know, I don't, I, I, I bucked working in the oil field because I was unhappy with it. Totally. I wanted something more. Totally. And I went and chased it. totally and that's brought me here and there's no nothing wrong with that i just mean like you know but so then moses is shepherding coming as a prince might have been his oil patch you see yeah

so when you put it that way then it makes a bit then when you put it that way now so if you're saying you're doing something that you do not like right but i go man now i got that's a question that wait a second man that is a question to think on for a second because it's like if If tomorrow the podcast went away. Yeah. Could I be happy with being there? A father and a husband. And that is, you know, you provide whatever it is on the table.

Driving truck. You go work. A lot of guys made that choice in COVID. Hard. That's, there's, there's the, there's the Ecclesiasty's teaching. You have to learn to be content in all circumstances, whether like Paul, rich or poor. You're sleeping in a jail cell awaiting your exes. You are just as content as you are if you're living as a king with people who love you.

Very tough, very hard. Probably the apex of sanctification, to be honest. It's so easy for us to complain. To go back to the old patches hard. Now imagine being God and coming down to carry a cross. That's not good luck, you know, what do you say to that? just imagine being God coming down to be a mason like a stone mason or a carpenter you know there's debate about what he was you live in absolute perfection you are lord like you know

you are on like you're in heaven and you come down here and never once do you complain shocking hey that man purely only in his humanity refused to be called good He said, no one's good, but God alone. So Jesus is saying, I am good because I am God. But still, there are a lot of people, most people who say, yeah, I'm pretty good. The guy who never complained didn't even call himself that only in his humanity. He said, God's only good. There's a charge for the new year.

Not saying you don't ever change jobs if you don't want to. No, and not saying you don't try and build a better life. Obviously, you don't sit around and do nothing. But the question of tending the flock, I position it as... Going to the patch. Well, I didn't position it as... I positioned it as, you know, living a simple life. Yeah.

You position it as, take what you wanted out of. That's right. And now you do that for 40 years. That's right. And finding peace in that to be like, you know what? It's not so bad. It's not so bad. That is solid teaching.

Not teaching. That's a solid lesson. Anyone who can really say that in their heart, who that's a very rare, rare person because there's always something better you're looking for. Everyone's always apt to say my life's hard, my life sucks, not enough money, I don't like my job. Nobody really likes their job.

That's part of the curse, you know. And so to be able to, if everything were ripped away from you right now, which is what happened to Moses, to go out into the wilderness and to do what you did not ever want to do, that's something. And to do it in a content way. You don't complain every day about how much your job is terrible or how terrible your job is.

Maybe you could just start, you know, like, because I just, you could just start that. That'd be something to start on. Yep, it would be. It doesn't mean you don't try and work to a better end. Start with your job now. Yeah, because, I mean, it's hard. You go, nobody's doing what they want. I'm doing exactly what I'm doing.

Right. Yes, you are a rare specimen. I don't want to try and not talk about that. I am doing exactly what I want to do. Do I want more success? Yes. Totally. But I go on the flip side, I'm like, man, I don't know.

More success comes more stress, comes more headache. Well, yeah. More, you know, even more. But the same time, if you don't try and push forward. That's right. You don't want to be content either. don't want to be content either you're right a christian wow another paradox look at that which is you are to ever be content but also not content you are to be content wherever you are

and yet always looking to do more for christ yeah so like it's just that's merry christmas merry christmas merry christmas the guy who we're celebrating the man the god man who was content his whole life who for 30 years built homes Maybe a Colosseum, you know, built parts of the, he probably was a stone mason because there weren't really trees in Nazareth. It's more like a lot of stone. Anyway, so probably built a lot of cities or parts of cities. Probably, not probably, for the empire that would kill him, right?

Rome killed him. Put him on the cross. Did that for 30 years, no complaints. Then he goes out for three years and proclaims the truth and is hated for it, does not complain, goes to the cross for you. you and me, does not complain, is resurrected. And you go, well, he's God, he's God, he's God. So, you know, the comparison isn't fair.

But that neglects the fact that Christ was 100% man. There is a reason the Hebrews say that he sympathizes with our temptations and our sufferings because he too was tempted. I think that's Hebrews 415, but he did not sin. so every temptation of satan the bread and the um you know on top of the temple and all that jazz you know those three temptations you have the world are just to deny your humanity it's for christ to deny his humanity and just act as god and christ refuses to do it yeah incarnations a miracle. No other God and any other religion was ever made man. Well, here's to hoping wherever you're

at. If you did tune in on Christmas Day, Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas. And we appreciate you having me and Tanner in your house. That's pretty high company. I put Don Cherry on the only one ever. We did the same for Grandpa, Rockham, Salkham every year. Classic. So this is, if you're playing it, it's a high honor. It's a very high honor. It is. And well, I just wish you all a Merry Christmas. is I hope you get to spend it with some family or your kids or your, you know, whatever. I just hope it's a happy day because it is a happy day. It is a happy day. It is a happy day. It is so wonderful to celebrate the birth of man's savior.

Tanner, thanks for hopping in and doing this again. Appreciate it. Every time you come in here, we land on something where I'm like, I'm going to have to go think about that for a while now. But thanks again for doing this. I hope the new studio was what. Oh, it's fantastic. Exceeded expectations. Gorgeous. It has a great, masculine, but also clean and professional vibe. Well, it won't be the last time. Sweet. Thanks again for doing this and look

forward to talking with you at some point in 2026. Beauty. Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas.