Shaun Newman Podcast - Ep. #152 - Vance Crowe

Episode Date: February 15, 2021

Podcasts, book clubs, the Gulag Archipelago & Peter Thiel Paradox - Vance is a pretty cool character calling in from St. Louis. He's been in the Peace Corps, spent time all over North America as a public speaker and hosts his own show the Vance Crowe Podcast.  Let me know what you think Text me! 587-217-8500

Hi, this is Brandon Holby. Hey, this is Tanner, the Bulldozer Bozer. Hi, this is Brian Burke from Toronto, Ontario. This is Daryl Sutterin. Hello, everyone. I'm Carlyagro from SportsNet Central. This is Jay On Right. This is Quick Dick, quick, tick coming to you from Tough Moose, Saskatchew. Hey, everybody, my name is Theo Fleary.

This is Kelly Rudy. This is Corey Krause. This is Wade Redden. This is Jordan Tutu. My name is Jim Patterson. Hey, it's Ron McLean, Hockeynet in Canada, and Rogers' Hometown Hockey, and welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks. I hope you guys had a great weekend. You got the day off today, most likely, unless you're some of the boys working out at the plants. And shout out to all the

seraphena fellows who are listening. Hopefully you did something nice for your significant other on Valentine's Day, Sunday. I know a lot of us, a lot of people listen to this. They're like, man, there's too many bloody days. Well, here, I'll give you an idea. This is what me and the wife do. So what we've done is, is Mel takes care of Valentine's Day. I don't have to do anything. Now, somebody out there is going to be like, that's horrible. You've got to do something. It's like, no, listen, she takes care of Valentine's Day.

It's awesome. Has tons of thought put into it. It's not just here's a flowers and a card and hey, it's pretty cool. So we had a board game night, a little competition, shall we say. Yours truly. May it came out on top. And then what I do in return is anniversary. I take care of.

And so she doesn't have to worry about a thing. And that way, you know, there is a lot of days in the year. And maybe you're the guy or girl that just loves every single one of them. But you start having kids run around. I don't know. It's worked well for us. I'm not going to sit here and say it'll work well for you, but I certainly enjoy it. And I know I look forward to planning our anniversary coming up in August.

So, hey, that's just an idea for you. I hope everybody is doing well on this Monday morning. Maybe you're a little hungover because it is a holiday Monday. Or maybe you're out working. Regardless, I got a great one for you today. But before we get there, let's get to today's episode sponsors. Carly Clause and the team over at Windsor Plywood, Builders of the podcast Studio Table. For everything, Wood, these are the guys, whether we're talking mantles, decks, windows, doors, or sheds.

When you want quality, stop in and see the group at Windsor Plywood. Or just hop on your phone. take a look at their Instagram, Facebook, and see what they're up to, all right. Jen Gilbert and team for over 40 years since 1976, the dedicated realtors of Coldwell Bankers, Cityside Realty have serves the Lloyd Minster in the surrounding area. They're passionate about our community, and they pride themselves on giving back through volunteer opportunities

and partnerships as often as they can. They know where home is truly where awesomeness happens. Coldwell Banker, Cityside Realty, for everything in real estate. Give them a call 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 780, 8753343. Now, if you got that said house, mortgage broker Jill Fisher would be a good one to help you navigate everything mortgages. And right now, we are at like an all-time low. And I don't even know what the percentage is now, one point something.

It's pretty crazy. And I've been saying this for the last few weeks. If you don't know where your house is at, maybe dig into it a little bit and maybe give Jill Fisher a call, 7808. 7-2-29-14, whether you're in Lloydminster, Bonneville, Cold Lake, or Vermilion. She looks forward to working with you, and she can help kind of clear up some of maybe the confusion or maybe some questions you have about your mortgage, and whether or not, maybe you're in line to save a bit of money. Who doesn't want that?

Clinton team over at Trophy Gallery. The showroom is back open, 10 to 4 Monday through Friday. They're downtown Lloyd Minster, their Canada supplier for Glass and Crystal Awards for business owners this is a perfect way to show your appreciation for your staff i can attest to this after we did the health foundation gift to the hospital gift to health they got us uh these glass wear or this glass pyramid a little commemoration for it and it was done by clint and man it looked sharp and if that's what maybe your business you're looking for something to do to appreciate maybe you got employees coming up on their fifth or 10 or 20th year

Who knows? Maybe stop in and talk to Clint. They got all sizes, shapes, price ranges. And you can talk to Clint or Dean at Trophy Gallery, downtown Lloydminster today, Canada's award store. Clay Smiley and the team over at Prophet River. I was talking, we got talking about guns the other day. And Clay's name came up because one of the guys was like, oh, yeah, used to teach me out in PV. I was like, oh, yeah, that's the story I keep telling, right? Like, here's this guy who goes from being a grade school teacher.

selling and working on guns and importing to anywhere in Canada, you know, kind of through his garage and then it grows and grows and grows and I mean, his store now is fabulous. They're north on Highway 17 here in Lloydminster. So he starts as a school teacher and then all of a sudden goes from doing that to quitting his day job, opening up his own business and he's been doing it now since I believe 2002. And so, I mean, if you're after anything guns, anywhere in Canada, you want something important from the States, I suggest you head to Profitriver.com and check them out today. They will help you no matter what.

If you're talking firearms, optics, or accessories, they serve all of Canada. SMP Billboard, across from the UFA, a huge shout out to Reg and Wright with the talented Miss Deanna Wanlo. We've got a new one coming here that's going to be in factory sports pretty dang quick, a little billboard, a little cutout of myself. We'll see what you all think of that. I know the boys at Factory Sports are going to have a little fun with it. They do have some hats and some clothing there now. So if you're looking to get any SMP gear, stop in and check them out. Gartner Management finally is the Lloydminster-based company specializing all types of rental properties to help meet

your needs. Whether you're looking for small office or a 6,000 square foot commercial space, give Wade Gertner a call 780808 5025. And if you're heading into any of these businesses, let them know you heard about them from the podcast, all right? Now, we got a good one here coming. So let's get on to that T-Barr-1 tale of the tape. He's a communication consultant that has worked for corporations and international organizations around the world.

He's spoken before to more than 100,000 people answering questions about some of the most sophisticated and controversial technology in the modern age. He's the former director of millennial engagement from Monsanto, a communications strategist for the World Bank Group, a return U.S. Peace Corps volunteer station in Kenya, a former communications coordinator at a national public radio affiliate in Northern California, and was a deckhand of an eco-tourism ship that traveled to Western Hemisphere. He holds a degree in communications from Marquette University and a master's degree in cross-cultural negotiations from Seton Hall School of Diplomacy. I'm talking about Vance Crowe. So buckle up. here we go.

This is Vance Crow. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast today. I'm joined by Vance Crow. So first off, thanks for hopping on. Hey, man. Thanks for having me. Well, I got to say, so I had Quick Dick on last night.

And me and Quick Dick, he's usually got a glass of vodka, and I got a beer, and he gives me a rough time, and away we go. And we've done it several times. And my strategy that I've done since starting this podcast, is when I'm having a new person on, I read articles, listen to podcasts, I mean, as much information as I can humanly possibly take in, I try and do. And so it led me to you six months ago when I had him on last time. And I forgot all about you, but I listened to your first one with Quick Dick. And I remember thinking, wow, that was like really good. And I brought it up to Quick Dick,

and I forgot about it. So then this next time, I listened to a bunch of Quick Dick stuff because he's been on a bunch of podcasts and you come up again and I listen to him like I was like really good I'm gonna bring it up to quick dick I think we should talk about this and then I listened to the last one I did with quick dick just on like I don't know a hunch I don't know what it was and we talk about you and we almost have the same thought that went through my brain and I'm like well that just cements it I'm getting this guy on I've thought it twice now well I mean like it's actually a huge honor to think about uh anybody talking about you on their podcast but particularly quick dick McDick. I mean, that is a guy that has a mass of people that he knows and exciting things going on

in his life. So to be a part of your conversation is like, it's actually really flattering. Well, I got to say this. You don't know any hockey guys, but so I'll give you a little hockey terminology. I had Paul Bissanette from Spitting Chicklets, which is like the biggest hockey podcast in North America or probably the world. Anyways, and I was giving them too many compliments at the start. And he goes, we're going to play tummy sticks for the rest of the day or what, right? And I started laughing. You're choking on your water. All right.

But anyways, I got to give you a real kudos, like a tip of the cap to you. Because I listen to a lot of podcasts. Joe Rogan is by far my favorite. It's my go-to. And normally when I research somebody, there is like, when it isn't a bigger name, at least in my world, it's hard to be like, well, that was like really good. And both times I've listened to you and Barry. I'm going to torture this name. flinchbow oh yeah yeah yeah that was a good one no that was no that wasn't good that was regular

speed good there was so much information coming out of it that i had to slow it down and like try and like take it in good yeah so barry flinchbow is an american superstar or was he actually just passed away and that interview was one of the last um recordings with him and uh man you you didn't have to try very hard to get a good interview all you had to do is turn a camera on and uh and make sure he didn't bump the microphone too much and he was going to he was going to steal the show no matter what so i mean i think you figured out one of the great ways to have really good interviews is have people on that know a lot about things that you're curious about because then all you have to do is be interested in what it is that they have to say and the thing takes care of itself yeah i i

would agree and so that's why i'm curious about mr vans crow now because i've read a little bit about you before i reached out quick dick obviously says actually when i got digging into some of your I now understand mine and quick dick's conversation from last night, I think. But I want to know a little bit more about Vance, and I know my audience is going, who the hell is Vance Crow? So let's talk a little bit about you. Just maybe let's start with your story. I'll pick some things out of it.

I'm quite positive. So my story, I'm a kid that grew up in small town America. I was the middle child of seven. And I had kind of like a 1950s upbringing where you could. I had a backyard that was connected to a creek, and so I'm always running around jumping in that. I was around farm kids, so I would bail hay and walk beans back before Roundup. But, you know, just like every kid living in a small town, at least where I'm from, I had dreams of leaving. I always thought, you know, the world is going to be so much more interesting and exciting when I'm not here, when I'm somewhere else.

So I went away to college, and like a lot of young people, I had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up. And like the idea of deciding when you went off to college, I'm going to be a fireman or I'm going to be a doctor. I didn't have a sense that when you got a step towards something you wanted to be, that that was like fulfilling. And instead, all I heard was all the doors slamming shut. And so I went to school kind of looking around for somebody to tell me who I should become. And that's kind of a dangerous thing, right? A lot of college kids do that. It's expensive, one, and two, it kind of puts you in the position of being indoctrinated, right?

It's somebody else can tell you, hey, this is the dream that you should have. Hey, this is the way that you be successful. And I don't fault anybody that I was encountering. I just think that I really put myself in a position that I never want to forget because I look at what goes on with kids today and you look at them and you shake their head. But I was definitely that lost kid willing to pay 10s. of thousands of dollars to find myself only to get done with college and be no closer to figuring out who I was going to be or what I wanted to do. I think a lot of people can relate to that. I think when it comes to even the podcast, I started out with, you know, your joke around when we

started about, oh, you were a hockey player. Absolutely. And I think there was a people, people don't realize they're doing it, but a little bit of a push for you to call it like, grassroots hockey or whatever you want to call it hockey and just stick in your lane. Don't look at you. Just go with your lane. And I went out with my name no different than you went with your name. And my theory was is I want to be able to go wherever I want to go. Because if I'm going to be have fun and people are going to listen and have enjoy it, I got to enjoy it. And that means going wherever, uh, you know, my interest lead me, which, you know, that leads me to you. And, like I say, there's so much good stuff that I've listened to you in one day.

Plus a couple of Quick Dick episodes, but straying from what I know into some of the stuff you've been going after, man, I was really surprised. And I'll probably, I'm blowing you up here. But like, really enjoy your mindset and just what you've been saying. Well, I mean, there's really kind of you to say, like Quick Dick when I was tweeting out the podcast with him. He had a really funny kind of phrase and I've actually used it since then, but it's, uh, I think you're pumping my tires a bit. I think that's a clever, clever thing. It's actually kind of weird for me right now because I've done, I think, uh, maybe a 200 or so

interviews. Um, and you get in the, the feel, it's much more comfortable to be in the host seat because you can be like, hey, I'm going to take this where I want to go. And when you're, when the thing's on you and somebody's like, what's your story? You're like, I should I start with my earlier today or should I start with where I was born and how I got into this world. And it's funny sitting on the other side of the chair. I really want to know about the Peace Corps. I've read about you going in the Peace Corps. You did it after college. And just, you know, you go to Kenya. You go to middle of nowhere. And coming from North America, I assume that had to have been not only a culture shock, but a huge learning moment.

Well, I mean, you're already probably better prepared than I was for when I went there. So by the time I was in the Peace Corps, I had already been a deckhand and I had on a ship that had been in the Western Hemisphere. So I had traveled. And I had bought a house with a friend of mine and renovated it and sold it. And I really was not feeling very fulfilled. And really what I wanted was something that was like, undeniably, you're doing something good. And I really wanted to travel.

And so I signed up for the Peace Corps and my mother's fond of telling people that when they tested my Spanish language skills that I studied so hard for in college, they decided they would send me to Kenya, meaning I didn't study, you know, probably nearly as hard as I should have. But when I got the letter to go to Kenya, I was horribly disappointed because in my mind, Kenya was like the Switzerland of Africa. I was like, oh, now I'm going to get sent to Switzerland to go be in the Peace Corps. because for whatever reason in my mind, I was like, I want somewhere really poor, not just kind of poor. And it wasn't until I landed there and you really saw the poverty in a totally different way that I was like, my perspective on this was entirely wrong. And it really was a humbling experience for me because it was not at all what I was expecting. Could you maybe give the listener, myself included, maybe a little more of a picture of what you mean by poverty?

Yeah, so when you go to Kenya, like, or at least when I was there, so things have changed quite a bit since I was there about 15 years ago. But I was put with a homestay family that the way they powered their television was by taking a car battery and they would have one of the kids walk it up to a local village. and they would pay them amount of money to run a generator that's just one of those old belt generators plug it in for two hours and then you'd come and pick it up and then that would be the thing that would run your television and your one lamp in there and if you wanted to take a bath you had to take a bucket bath so when I was first taught that's why you stay with a family when you move to Kenya because you have to learn like how am I going to live when I don't have running water so I had to actually learn how do you bathe with just a bucket of water and maybe a couple cups of that have come off of a

charcoal Gico like a little stove to heat it up just a little bit and uh you know I was with the wealthy family that our bath section was in the house they had a drain inside of their house and um you know then if you wanted to go to use the bathroom you had to go out into an outhouse and the outhouse just was a hole with a little ledge on that you would put your heels of your feet on. And so you'd go out there and you'd go to the bathroom. And if you were lucky, if you were a wealthy family, you'd have newspaper to wipe your hands with. And if you were a poor family, you just wiped with your hand and then cleaned it off when you got out of there. So that level of subsistence living, not to mention the food and how they got water and all of those things was so shocking. You know, most people

They go camping and they think, oh, well, you know, this is kind of a pain, but, you know, we're done with it in a weekend. But when you're doing it day in and day out and day out and you start to realize you have no idea. One of the biggest things that we have in the Western world that most people don't realize is time. We have so many appliances and things taking care of stuff that most of the people around the rest of the world have to do themselves by hand. That is an enormous advantage of. of which I think I can never get over now. Time is the thing that Western civilization has back. Yeah, it feels like when you talk about it,

maybe not the wiping of the feces with the hand per se. I haven't heard that one yet. I wrote in the email to you that every second Wednesday this year, I release a community pillar, an archive episode that, you know, I've interviewed people as old as 98 years old. and they can tell you some stories. And it feels like you got to go back in time, essentially, because even the charging of the batteries and everything like that

is technology that was used here about 70 years ago, right? And that's, yeah, like to me, and how long did you go there for two years? No, so I ended up getting really, really sick when I was there. So it turns out, I don't know if up in, you know, you're in Saskatchewan, yeah? Yeah, Saskatchewan, yeah. I love when Americans say it. Do you have poison ivy up there or poison oak? Yeah, absolutely.

So as a good Midwestern Prairie kid, I am hyper allergic to poison ivy. Perfect. What I didn't realize is the plant family of the mango and poison ivy are actually not that far apart. And so the peel of a mango produces the chemical Euraschal. And Eurasol is the thing that makes you break out in hives. But I didn't know that. So I had a mango tree in my yard. And I was paying kids to climb up into the tree and pick the ripest mangoes and drop them down to me.

And I was eating them. And there would be like a delayed reaction. So I couldn't pinpoint that that was happening. So I'm broken out from head to toe with the worst rash you've ever had in the equatorial African sun. And the whole time I'm sitting there eating mangoes being like, man, this allergy would be awful if I didn't have all these mangoes to eat. But I didn't figure out that it was the mangoes or know anything about botany until after I came back. Because eventually they were like, look, you're not allowed to be here. They really think you look like a freak and you can't be out in the sun.

And so I ended up having that dream crashed after about six months. Really? So you only went, I mean six months, man. Six months of experiencing that as a giant culture shock. No doubt. And, you know, one of the things that you get when you have a culture shock is you start to realize that so many of the things that you, that were water back in your culture, they just aren't there. And for me, as like a student of how people behave or how they think about things, it was enough to really tear away a lot of things that I just. just knew about other people. And so for me, the six months, I would have loved for it to have

been longer, but that shot my life in a totally different direction. And for me personally, it was one of the best things that could have ever happened to me. You know, I was, it just popped back into my head too. You'd mentioned time. We, how that we have time over here. That was one of the other things, archive episodes. Here, you know, we're sitting in, well, we hit minus 40 about three days ago. So she's nice and frosty up here. And can you imagine living in like a two bedroom house and dealing with minus 40 and doing everything you just talked about, but minus 40? And I think about that a lot the time thing, right? Like we have so much time to almost overthink things and get wound up and like stressed out about thinking about things because everything allows us

the time to do it. Whereas back 40 years ago, 50 years ago, there was a lot of manual labor here. I mean, you're an agriculture guy. You know how much, like, you know the span of where agriculture has come and farming, heating a house, you know, the amount of stories of them, how much wood they had to chop down, hell, drinking water, getting it, bringing it in, no icebox. So around here, they go cut ice blocks out of either the river or sluze or lakes and dig holes to put that in. Right. Like the time thing I totally get. Well, and as you're describing this, the thing you're making me think of is the amount of cooperation you had to have, right?

Like no one can live in harsh environments by themselves. And one of the things that our appliances have done is make it so you still need people, but you need that. repair man to stop by for an hour. You know, you need that person to come and do a service for you for a little while, and it's very transactional. But if you're trying to live like that, you must cooperate with other people. You must find a way to get along with them. And so the petty grievances that we have against people today, not only do we have the time for it, but we also have the ability to not need them, which I think has some really interesting ramifications for society that we really haven't dealt with yet.

Hey, I tell you what, you weren't, there's plenty of stories where you get trapped in a storm and you go to the next house and they, well, hell, you go back. My father is making me read the Fort Pitt Trail, which is stories from 18, 80s, call it, to 1950s roughly. And there's stories of getting stuck out and building a lean to and then other travelers come along and everybody sneaks in under it and you eat what little you have and you just you survive, right? And you're right. Now actually when the repairman comes, because it happened to me today, the heater went out in the grad. He's just like, okay, can we move along here? I got things to do.

Yeah, I had a chance, actually right before COVID, I was up in Alberta and I was talking with the cattle ranchers up there. And one of the things that they did at their nighttime, thing was talk about how people used like salted cod throughout the throughout Canada and like the sharing that had to occur and all of the work that went along with it and you like you think about living in a place like northern Canada like I think like one of the things that I love about the way quick dick talks about tough knell or the way you guys were talking about the honey wagon like there's something really important about the speed with which your society moves at.

And I think that in some ways, Canada, at least in the rural parts, is maintaining some of that speed. And I think that's what makes you guys, at least from an outsider's perspective, seem to not be disintegrating in the same way that maybe the more urban worlds are. I'm glad you'd bring up the speed and the rural versus urban. because I always point out to quick dick. I've heard you talk about it. In Canada, it's 81.48% now of Canadians live in cities, right? And so even here, there's a huge shift of people moving into, you know, I think we read

the other day 90% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S. border, right? Like the further you go north, you know, it's just, it's not developed. There's a reason for that, right? Like it's a big old nation. She's cold. And when the winter comes, she comes on hard. And I love it. But the speed in which, and even the discussion that goes on from the country to the city is like there's just a disconnect there now.

And maybe there's always been a disconnect. And maybe now it's just more of the population is on one side. Like grows like overwhelmingly on the one side. United States is the same way. I mean, it's 83%. Like, that's, that's a lot. So there's a couple things that this makes me think of. One is my favorite thing, one of my favorite things to bring up with agriculture, which is this phenomenon that was studied at this place called the Santa Fe Institute. And it's about the density of cities. So you can go to any city in the world and you could be blind to where you flew into. And you could time how fast do people walk 100?

meters and based on how fast they walk 100 meters you can determine within 10,000 people how many people live in that city, how dense it is populated. And it's because the more density that you have, the faster people walk. And this is like fascinating ramifications, right? Because if you've ever noted, you know, if you're in Tuffnell, I'm guessing people walk a little slower. So you're yelling at the farmer in the airport is what you're saying. Well, I mean, there's definitely that. But there's another interesting component that goes to this because you could say, well, are you saying that good ideas or the people in the city are faster or smarter than us? And like, that's not it at all because the speed with which ideas move has no bearing at all on how the quality of the

ideas. So in the same way that the tradition is very slow in the rural Saskatchewan when you're away from the city, it means you also don't have to deal with the constant new ideas that are flooding into society and flying around there. And it's one of those things that cities are going to be beholden to the idea that bad ideas are going to move as quickly through their society as good ideas are. Well, we're seeing that right now. We're seeing bad ideas all the time. You talk about Canada not, I don't know, from the outside looking in, maybe that it's not I read the Guleg archipelago and I know. Oh man, you said that in your thing.

Man, that is one of the roughest. You will be a changed person coming out of that book. Well, the thing that's so eerie about it is like, you know, in Alberta, I'm going to speak Alberta specifically. We have a snitch line. So if people aren't abiding by COVID rules, there's a snitch line. But think about that. You know the Guleg.

That is like, oh, that's not good, right? They have isolation hotels now. Now, they're trying to paint it in a nice way that it's just there for convenience and make sure people coming from it. But there's been videos come out now that are make you raise your eyebrows. And just in general, over the last little bit, instead of just laying it on like this is what's going on, they're a little more shady about it. So you can't really put your finger on what it is, but you feel like that doesn't feel right. And it's strange. It's a strange thing.

and it does not help. I will say this directly. It does not help that you're reading the Guleg archipelago. But the Guleg archipelago, if there is ever a time in history besides the Holocaust, or at least the Nazis, like this one is pretty like, you don't want to go to that.

Like that is pretty awful. Yeah, I mean, like a lot of people don't realize just how many more people the Soviets killed than the Nazis. And I've interviewed people that, have said some pretty shocking things in my podcast. Like, why is it that you can hold a hammer and a sickle on your shirt and people don't go absolutely berserk on you in the same way that they would if you were wearing a schwaastika?

So why do they think? Well, they have this, like, in my opinion, just like total bullshit way of thinking that the Soviets didn't do what they didn't do all the mass murder out of malice. They were doing it because they were on the path to utopia. They had good intentions, so we can't really criticize them. So as long as you have good intentions, we can't criticize you. And like you'd be surprised how pervasive this line of thinking is, right? Like I've had people on and I've pointed out, hey, the picture in the back, that looks like, is that linen?

You have a picture of Lenin up there? Because his philosophies ended up leading exactly to the Gulag archipelago and was the frontrunner to Stalin. and they'll say, well, if you go read the writings, they were trying to do good. They weren't impassioned by hatred. They were impassioned by utopia. And that's actually the rub, right? Like people in government positions that are making these decisions, they're always going to present it to you as though the decision is righteous.

And it is always going to be uncomfortable to push back on these things because you're like, look, I know we're in an emergency. We got to do the right thing. I don't want to give them a hard time, but the path that the politicians will pave to the next level of whatever we're going to will always be presented to us as we're doing this because it's the good intentions,

it's the right way to behave. I can't speak for St. Louis. But that line where as long as you're doing the right thing, it's hard to, now I'm spacing on the word, it's hard to like attack, criticize. That rate there is where it certainly feels like we're at, right? Like everybody wants, it feels like they're doing the right thing. They're always taking the moral high ground and it's uncomfortable to attack the moral high ground.

Because even if it's from a spot of like concern or I just want to understand like what's going on and just because we don't think the same way, that's it. That's interesting. Yeah, and I've been trying to go back and read some Nietzsche. and you hear about this idea and it's kind of mocked in the modern world about the Uber Munch, right? So this idea of this like ultimate man that it's actually the movie Fight Club is really about the Uber Munch and trying to be your own person, breaking away from the kind of postmodern idea of what the society tells you you should be. And one of the things that Nietzsche talks about is if you are going to do anything of value in this world,

it will require you to be rejected by society. You must actually do something. If you're going to build something that is pushing back against the wave of people that are going to want to participate in what everybody else thinks we should do, the sheep that are led to slaughter, then you will inherently cause waves and you will be disliked. And I think most of us don't push back on things at their core because we don't want to be disliked. and really at its core, the concept of the Gulag Archipelago, when he's recounting all of the things that he should have done

and how he was responsible for the exact position that he was in, that's the reason that book is so powerful, brutal, you know? It's brutal, because then you say, would I have the tenacity to be able to say that I put myself in this gulag? I don't know. It's, I tell you what, it's, probably when I I don't do interviews at night

this is dark nah well and and I gotta be on it you know I'm gonna have people I have people who listen to a few things and you know they go like that was well over my head so you know like Nietzsche like there's gonna be guys on

on listeners and never heard that but I think I think you did a good job explaining what I was going to say watch the movie Fight Club that that movie well no that's Everybody knows Fight Club here. That's a prime example. That is the story of Nietzsche.

That is Gary Polichick put that movie together, and it is Nietzsche. Would I, after I listened to you twice, and I had the same thought run through my brain, like, I got to get this guy on. The next thing that really, I'm like, this is going to be fun, is the fact you do a book club. Because I don't know, man, you got to be the second guy I've talked. talk to and maybe I'm just in the wrong circles. But we had, I just, I don't know a lot of people that enjoy reading. And on top of that, to be in a book club is, I think, rare. At least maybe I'm just living under a rock. That's fine. But I thought that was super cool. And the fact you're reading similar things is even more cool. I assume you're, you're trying to find something and

like the rest of us. Man, that's a good way to put it. trying to find something and you know for the book club the whole thing started because i had this friend who actually lives right on the canadian border in the u.s named lyle benjamin and a well-known farmer in the united states that actually sold his farm but he told me he's like oh i'm going to get to this series of books this winter i always read uh you know x volumes written by some historian and i found myself feeling a level of uh you know jealousy and resentment and one of the things that that I've learned along the way is resentment is a map. You know, if you find something that your friends are doing and you're like, ah, damn, I wish I was like that. I wish I was lucky that I could

do that. And then all of a sudden you got to be like, okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Why is it that I'm feeling resentment towards my friend? What I'm actually feeling is something about myself. So I was like, hey, Lyle, if we were going to read a book together, what book would we read? And so we kind of messed around and we talked about a book that we wouldn't read on our own, but we would if maybe we were with somebody else, Dante's Inferno. And so we started it and I started talking about it on the podcast and inviting other people to do it. And slowly more people started coming in. And the best part about having a book club is not just the talking about it at the end of the book club. It's the, I've got to read this book because I know other people are counting on me to do it.

And it gives you that little extra umph to do the kind of reading that you want to do. And I think one of the reasons that people don't read is because in order to read, you actually have to go and be alone. And we don't like that feeling. That feeling of being alone is a little bit scary. It's a little bit like, what happens if I have to deal with some of these thoughts? And so we make up all these excuses about why we can't do it. But once you get into the habit of being alone and having it be quiet, then something really good starts happening. Is that what you're finding with you? I mean, How do you get yourself to get back on the horse and keep going in the Gulag Archipelago every month, every week, every day or week or however often you're reading it? Okay. So I think people think it's work. I don't know about that long. I could be wrong. I think people look at books like work. Like watching something is easy. I'll listen to podcasts and things like that. And maybe it's a little harder, but you know, like compared to, I don't know.

a flicking on family guy or something like that, right? Like that's brain numbing in a different way you don't have to think. And away you go. I would say reading a book, you could pick up an Archie comic and that's a type of work, but it's a little easier. The Guleg archipelago, the reason I would say most people don't read it is because it is daunting. Like it is a big book. One of the things I struggle with the Guleg on,

is it is the first book I think I've ever read where there's so much meat on every page. Like every page in there. Did you realize that there is a line when he's giving the scenario of how you think, you know, you're getting interrogated, you've done nothing wrong, and he's painting, a scenario for you, person A and person B, and how they're going to get you so you plead guilty, but you're never going to give up your friends. And there is a line in there, and I must have stared at it for, I don't have. even know how long, where he talks about, you know, I'm going to tell him we were just watching hockey.

And I'm like, like, I had to do a triple check on that. And then I had to read the story again to get back to the hockey word. And then I like circled it, read a little bit, and then I came back to it. Because I'm like, what I love about a book, a book club, multiple people reading a book, is that what you read it speaks to you and what I read speaks to me and then if we can

if we both read the book now we can share what we both had speak to us right for one person it was the legal cases for me it's the fact

that it was they were going to talk about the game of hockey and that's how they're going to try and get around it and at the end they both get tortured

and they all go to die and you're like oh wow that's I didn't think that could any way that that could go from 1938, 1920, wherever you want to stick it,

and hit me at 20-20, 100 years later, and use a word like hockey, and boom, I'm like, I better pay attention to this one. And that's all it took. You know, you asked me when we were getting started at what my sport was. Before COVID, I used to do jujitsu. And one of the things that I loved about it

is that it is alive, right? There are a lot of other martial arts where you're, you're like getting close to hitting the other guy, but you're not actually hitting him. But in jiu-jitsu, everything's live. You learn a move, and then you try and apply it in the real world, and you may not get a chance to because it's constantly moving. And I think about that aliveness in other things. I mean, sports is aliveness, right? They put you in a frame and you have your moves and you can do what you want, and you're kind of interacting. books are that same way in a way that you know that a movie or TV aren't you're just a receiver of the TV but with the book if the author says the rolling green grass you're now in a dance with that author because now I'm going to take what I think of as rolling and green and grass and I'm going to paint that there and yours is going to take whatever experiences that you've had and it's going to be

different and so there's an aliveness to that book that the author has to have a day dance or a fight or something with the reader that probably does. You're right. I think doing work is probably a good example. It requires you to be engaged in it. Yeah. And no, the rolling green grass. It just immediately sends you to a place. And I tell people this all the time. You know, just hearing you talk about it, I go, it's brilliant that you invite other people into it because the Guleg Archipelago can seem daunting because it is. Believe me, it is. But to invite people to share

on that experience and to enjoy what you're enjoying, geez, that's a powerful thought. Because you don't have to start with the Guleg. Jeez, it's taken us two years to get to it because it is a daunting book. But you can start with simple ones.

I just read, City of Thieves was a fiction book about Russia, about two guys who are both convicted and are going to be sentenced to death unless they can get a dozen eggs during war, during war time. I think it's like 1943, back to the colonel in like three days' time. And it's their journey.

And it is a fantastic historical fiction book. And that I go, I feel like a lot of people could probably pick that up. And it's like, instead of it being an hour and a half long movie that you're like, man, that was a good movie. It is like now a 12 hour long movie that you're like into and get to know the character. is in such a depth way that's unbelievable. And on top of that, it's a historical fiction book. So it tells you a lot about what Russia was kind of like, and it'll shock you, right? And so you're learning and enjoying. And it's this like wonderful little dance, like you say. We just got done last month reading Seven Pillars of Wisdom. This is in, we did it over two months because it's such a big book.

So this is the story of Lawrence of Arabia. And people, I had no idea who this guy was. He's this British dude he's essentially the equivalent of their CIA he goes into egypt um and he starts in egypt and then he crosses over to saudi arabia now at the time there was no saudi arabia that was all turkish owned all of that they had conquered everybody they were in charge of mecca so he goes and rounds up all these bands of bedouin and he describes them in such beautiful language it's like poetry and he basically talks about the story of how he got all of these tribes who had been warring for thousands of years to coalesce into one giant force, they cross a desert and surprise the Turkish army who had all their guns pointing out to the ocean, and they come up behind them and just obliterate them.

But it is the most wild, magnificent story I have ever heard in my life, bar none. And the best part was when you were doing the book club and everybody's talking about it. And every person had a different story in that book that they loved and could talk about it and get excited. And it's just, it's a great experience to be a part of a book club. How did he get all the tribes to align? Well, he first spoke the language, which is a person that's done some traveling abroad. You know, that is a game changer. When you are a foreigner in Kenya, they would call you Mgeny.

And if you could speak their language, all of a sudden it meant like, yeah, you're, a stranger but you're not totally a stranger and they wanted freedom so he basically coaxed them towards what they wanted and then he would help them smooth over their uh their disagreements you know he had a really interesting perspective in there the soldiers that they used could leave at any time there was no such thing as desertion and they viewed the western concept of a soldier being a person that has said I'm in the army. I wear this uniform. All of my individualism is stripped away. And I also only kill on orders. I don't get to choose who I kill or who I don't kill. To them, this was like an abhorrent thing. They thought so poorly of Western soldiers. And it was one of those ideas that

unless you read it in a book, I'd never encountered that idea. I never heard anybody think that way before. Well, I go back to your Barry interview when you said one of the greatest gifts, the gods can be spore upon upon someone is a love of reading because it's not a, I'm butchering it right now. If it's not a burden to you, then you can go and discover wisdom that would otherwise take a lifetime to learn. And I thought, man, that, that's eloquent. Like, that is exactly right because you, uh, there's just certain books that have lasted

the test of time, right? That's, and if you can grab that wisdom, you don't need to learn the painful experience. to know it or you don't need to go through the 10 years to be able to write the book. And that's what books are lovely. Heck, that's what a lot of movies are great for too. They can pull some of that off as well. Well, you know, one of your famous Canadians, Jordan Peterson has this very interesting perspective on why the human mind is so absorbent to stories.

And it's basically because that's what allows you to test out different ways of living. I could try that. I could try this. I could try these experiments. And you can kill the imaginary person without the actual person dying. And so the stories that you listen to that actually give you lessons that will help you navigate better are actually keeping you alive in a way. I think that's a very, very powerful way to look at it. Well, I'm going to say this right now.

I'm in a book club with five guys. And they're all listening to this. And all four of them, you've just went, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. So the first book we read was Jordan Peterson. Saw him live twice. Once before his rise to fame or in the middle of it when he was exceptional, once when he was, in my opinion, too polished. Like he'd lost a little bit of his, I don't know, I don't even know what it is.

He was still fantastic, but he was very polished. Then you talk about Jiu-Jitsu. The first episode I did of this podcast was with Ken Rutherford. And we just finished doing our first couple sets of Jiu-Jitsu. because that's what we can kind of learn. Now, in fairness, I'm not doing it right now, but two of the five members are, and they do it all the time, they have their kids into it, and, and, and the fact that you've read the gulag and continue to read and do this, they're going, holy man, you're going to have to get this guy on 12 times. You know, I got to be honest, I was reading the gulag archipelago, and I got

three-fifths of the way through, and I was on a plane, and I remember, I really, I remember, remember some story about like boots. I don't remember exactly what it was, but it so upset me that I went into the, uh, the toilet inside of the plane and threw up. And, uh, I'd never done that before. Really? And it was so upset. I put that book down and it has been so like, I'm sitting here being like, you got to admit to Sean, you've never finished that book because it was like, uh, when I say it'll change you, like I actually, so I was working at Monsanto. The, the connection that I have with agriculture that we didn't really brought up was I was the director of millennial engagement for Monsano. And what I was seeing out in the world is if you make people

afraid of their food by saying GMOs are poison or the only way to eat is organic and you allow this game to go on. So let's say you're a corporation that's selling GMOs, but now you see, hey, there's an opportunity for us to get into selling into the organic. And yeah, some of that money that we're going to help them raise, they're going to turn around and use to describe how the GMOs that we're using are poison. But hey, we got a bottom line and it's business. Let's just don't do it. I was trying to talk them out of doing this. And so, and the reason was because I had read the Gulag Archipelago and I realized once you have an incongruity in your life, then all these other incongruities can stack up on top of them. And, uh, and so I don't really know where I was going

with this. Other than to say, can I still look has such a, yeah, go ahead. I actually need a word to find incongruity. What do you mean? So, um, you know, if something's incongruent in your life, you, you, you are saying one thing and you're doing another or you believe something. Yeah. Contradictory. Yeah. No, no, no. You can keep going. I was just going to say. I take a firm line in my podcast is I got to be true to myself. And I'm putting out there what I'm thinking, which is being vulnerable and everything else, right? Like, it's an uncomfortable feeling. But if I want to have Vance Crow on, or I want to have, it doesn't matter, whoever on the opposite side or over there and go wherever it is, it's being true to where I'm at.

and as soon as you start lying to yourself, and I think that's a Jordan Peterson thing, I think that's a very, um, very dangerous thing. Because, you know, I say it all the time.

Positivity can spread just as much as negativity. Right now in the world, we really love to push the negative. We, we really love to show all the negative and how quickly that can just fester in it. And how quickly on all of us, you can feel that. Like you feel that.

But the, same can be said about positivity. We just got to all acknowledge that and move on. And part of that comes back to, you know, being consistent, well, for me, being true to oneself, being true to your values, finding your values, and then proceeding on. So I admire what you're saying there. Well, I mean, so what you'll really love is I felt so strongly about what was going on with Jordan Peterson that I spent a lot of time getting the executive leadership of Monsana. know, like on board with this. I was sending him clips way before he was important.

I had a chance to do a speech up in Toronto. So I actually went and met Jordan Peterson. This is before he became popular. And then I brought him to the American Farm Bureau. And that's where I went from being like, hey, we love this guy. There's all these scientists that were on my team. There were all these people like, hey, we're finally getting GMOs going. And then there was a group of people that were very pro-s science.

But absolutely on the social spectrum of we hate Jordan Peterson, well, when I brought him to the American Farm Bureau to help them address a question, the whole world blew up. So I had people in writing articles in Slate Magazine, people from my own company calling for me to be fired. Like, it went totally and insanely sideways. And this was just before he did that Kathy Newman interview, which then made him a,

global phenomena but so that that was like a rather extreme thing but throughout the whole time i kept saying like i maybe made a mistake by bringing my own company all of this problem but i did not make a mistake in being exactly honest with what i was trying to do which was let people know that these 12 rules for life these are very good ideas and no one's telling young people and by the way farmers, if you're worried about your kids going away to school and being indoctrinated, this guy has some ideas about how to keep them from being indoctrinated. Well, I got to know, man. How difficult was that? Like, to like, because when it comes to Jordan Peterson, if anyone doesn't know who Jordan Peterson is, I highly suggest you do a little, you probably pause this and do a little side venture into

figuring out who he is. But for, for, everyone that loves who Jordan Peterson is, and there is a lot. There is a lot that absolutely hate his guts, probably because of clickbait, and I think Joe Rogan said it best, is he doesn't do a good short interview. You really need to let him explain what he's thinking. But in saying all that, like you brought him in. Like, that's, that's crazy to me. Because I mean, obviously, I didn't know. It was before, it was way before he was such a. I mean, like he had some stuff that dusted up, but at the time, he was not this hot iron. It would be wrong of me to imply that I didn't know there was that potential.

I just, I had no idea for anybody that's ever wondered, like, how would it feel if the mob comes for me? Yeah. And that is one of those things that you have like a, what's deep down in my soul. because at the end of the day, your corporation is now disavowing you. Monsanto was good to me. So I want to be very clear. They said, hey, we put the money up.

We said we were going to do this. We're doing it. We believe that people should have a chance to speak. That's fine. But as soon as it was done, we're like, we're never doing it again. And we'll have a better review process in the future. But to have hundreds, if not thousands of people on Twitter calling for your job, for wondering if you're going to be able to have insurance, is my wife.

and I were trying to have a baby. And that was one of those things where you say, well, this isn't that bad because nobody's come in to take me off to the gulags. And really, this is just training for life is going to get this hard. And like the sooner you come to the realization that eventually everyone will have to face a mob like this. Everyone that is going to do anything that matters will eventually cross it where you look around and the only people that are on your side are your family.

and the close friends that you share a lot of values with. And outside of that, you've got to be prepared to let everyone else hate you. And if you're not prepared to do that, then you have to recognize when somebody tries to lead all the sheep off to slaughter, I'm going to be one of the sheep. I've got to be clear. I had no idea about any of that. That is, I've always wondered what it was, you know, here I am doing a podcast and a little old Canada. maybe I've ruffled some feathers. But at the same time, I've probably stuck pretty safe, right? Like, I mean, I would think, maybe I'm wrong. I did give you the tummy sticks at the start.

That made you raise your eyebrows, hey? But I mean, overall, nothing but Pat's on the back for you or if at worst silence when you do an episode nobody likes, right? For that many people to be all over you about a guy that is trying to be. trying to make you better, right? Trying to give you some words of wisdom that he's learned from his life. And yet it incites such animosity. And just like, you can see it in people. You bring up his name. You know what you're getting. I light up and somebody else is twitchy. Right. Like, you know, it's just a guy that has written a book. And if you've read the book, you're like, wow, that's some pretty powerful shit. You can't get any more simple than that. But you've got to

read the book the hardest part for me so I when I joined Monsano you know I had been a Peace Corps volunteer I'd worked at the World Bank these are not people that love Monsanto so when I joined Monsanto I had a lot of friends you know turn up their nose at me and say hey I didn't know you were going to do this for the money and so that hurt a little bit but when the Peterson thing came about and you're like there are people out there that are trying to do everything they can do to make sure I will never be allowed to get work as a professional again. And they don't care about my wife and they don't care about what I'm working on or any work that I've done in the past. There's something awful about it because it's scary.

But there's also something entirely liberating. And in fact, I would wish it for other people if only because eventually you learn like, actually I don't care if you're trying to stop me, fine, like, then I've got to find another way. And I think a lot of people say, like, I'm going to use their hatred to turn me into something else. And I think I maybe went down that road for a little while, but eventually you start to figure out if my run, I'm trying to run so hard that I prove a point to these figments of your imagination, you come to the realization that you're not actually hurting other people. The more you carry that resentment of the mob, the more they own you. You just have to come to the conclusion that they don't matter.

They're vapor. They don't really exist in the way that you and I are existing right now in a conversation. What are you doing with the podcast, then? What are you after? That's a great question. I kind of frame it up two ways. I think about on the one hand, I love getting what I call up the graph. So, right, all ideas start somewhere with a very small number of people.

people like a stock tip right very few people know it and then as more and more people learn about it the value of knowing it first goes down so i don't necessarily need to be right where the stock tip is happening with people that are doing new and interesting things but i like being up that graph talking with people that are saying things that are not accepted by society they're not well understood there's that side of it but then i'm also like deeply deeply curious about uh what i what me and this network that I run called the Damon. So, you know, that inner voice that is the drive for you, the thing that tells you like, hey, fatty, you should stop, you know, eating so much cake and you should get your, you know, ass in gear. Or, hey, you're waiting too long to have kids. You need to,

you know, buckle down and do this. Or, hey, you're not behaving in the way that you know that you could be. And that voice that I am referring to, I call it the Damon. There's a lot of different philosophers that have named it different thing. But what I've discovered is that almost everyone has a daemon. And the more that I learn about how your damon relates to you, why you would go to Finland and do professional hockey, like, what is it that's driving you to leave your kids that want to wrestle and play with you to go do this podcast? There's something in you articulating your damon to me that allows me to understand my Damon better. And so that's kind of my ultimate quest.

And I think I'm intensely curious about my Damon, which makes me intensely curious about your Damon. What is Damon? So it's a term that philosophers like Gerta, Nietzsche, I think even Carl Jung used it. It's spelled D-A-E-M-O-N. And it's basically the concept, that we have this inner voice and so that inner voice that's the the balance of our values

and some kind of motivating animus right there was a time at some point when hockey got really hard for you and it wasn't fun and shit was going bad and something kept you going or something told you hey time to hang up the skates you need to leave this behind when every other piece of information is telling you something else, but that voice just won't leave you alone. That's what I think of as the Damon. That's an interesting... I'm really glad we've done this.

I have to be honest. Sometimes I question my gut on people. Like, I remember when I got Quick Dick. Here's a little short venture off in the sideways. I remember when I was nervous to get quick dick. Think about that. I was the first podcast, we were joking about it last night that got quick dick on.

And I remember him being like, man, I don't know if I could talk for 15 minutes, let alone an hour. I'm like, I'm sure you'll do fine, right? And as we all know quick dick now, it's funny.

But like, I remember being nervous to bring him on. Like, man, I've just been doing a lot of hockey guys. Like, maybe this is a dumb idea. And I trust my gut,

because when I see something that sparks that curiosity, curiosity, like that intense curiosity you're talking about, like, I really, really want to hear what he has to say. And maybe it'll totally conflict with what I think of him or maybe my own thoughts. But the fact of the matter is, I've never met quick dick in person. I promised him that it's going to happen this summer because, you know, COVID hit. So that really kiboshed a lot of things. But I really, it's crazy how much you can get to know somebody by never actually physically, I know this is meeting and this is more in depth than you will talk with, I don't know, 99% of people you'll see in a week.

But it's really cool when you trust you're like, I don't know, your gut, you're feeling, Damon, you want to call it? There's something powerful there. I don't know exactly what that is, but it's led me to, well, it's led me to you. And this conversation is super interesting. Well, I mean, I was going to say, you know, Carl Jung, who is somebody that Peterson has actually made popular. Yeah, yeah, all the time.

So Carl Young for a very long time was viewed as like, you know, somebody that would make dream catchers or something. People thought he was like absolutely bat shit insane. And but the, the funny thing is when you go read Carl Young, you start being like, man, that is dead on. And one of the things, you just use the exact word. He basically says your curiosity is your psyche's only way to, will you towards the things that you should do. And so he talks about like, you have anxiety, right? I feel anxious. I can't go to sleep. So that's your psyche being like, alert, alert,

alert. But the only way your psyche can tell you go in that direction is by making you curious about things. And this is why when you were talking about reading and finding these books and it not being work for you, exactly. Because just like, and you've used the language a couple of times here, like what are you searching for what are you looking for in there you too are doing that and that is your psyche your damon guiding you towards something because without curiosity you're a man without a compass you have you have no way to know what thing to go towards i think i need to read some you is basically what you're saying i mean read a lot of peterson listened to a lot of his lectures heard a lot about you have read a little bit but at the same time what you're talking about

sounds fascinating. Yeah, the book that I would recommend is the undiscovered self. That book will shave your hair off and it'll just, it'll rock your world that another human being could understand you so well as to write down and be piercing you with his observations from, I think that book was written in like 1930 something. Yeah, but if there's anything I've learned, I think, is, Yeah, I mean, our technological advancements have come light years in the last, what, even 20 years, 50 years. But I guess when I started down the path of reading more, especially talking and recording people,

is I think every generation that comes along has the idea that the people that came before or were 100 years ago or 300 years ago weren't that smart. Man, right? Jordan Peterson talks a lot about it. And then you start to read some of the stuff and their thoughts and you go, fuck, that's pretty smart. Like maybe I shouldn't look back at the past with such a like, man, they use their hand for wipe. Like, I mean, yeah, some guy had to come along and solve that. That doesn't mean all their ideas were dumb, but or archaic. But that's kind of the way every generation comes along.

I look at, I remember thinking at 18, man, I got the world by the day. And then I remember at 25, I got the world by the tail. And I remember at 30, man, I got the world at the tail. And here I sit at 34 and I go, I don't got the world by the tail. Actually, I'm going to be curious what I think at 70, let alone 34. I mean, and that's the best thing that could possibly happen. And the fact that, I mean, like, it is interesting that human beings, no matter how many times we like clearly fall on our faces can still have the confidence to be like, yeah, I still got it.

Because if you didn't, if you didn't have the level of confidence that you have, you couldn't do the podcast, you couldn't invite people on, you couldn't ask them questions, you couldn't find the 98 year old guy and be like, hey, we're going to have an interesting conversation and I'm going to publish it for other people. So the good thing about that weird overconfidence that we have is it pushes you out into the world and gets you to do the things that you know you should do. Well, what it does is it makes you uncomfortable in the same. situation, which that's good because now it's forcing me before I can ever have you back on.

I got to read the book because then I go, now we can actually have a little inter, you know, like, oh, wow, all right. Like this is what, like to me, that, that's perfect. Like, if I ever just stuck, listen, if I want to get back on the bicycle and just ride, I flip back over to a hockey guy. And that is no knock on any hockey guy. That is not what I mean. It means it's comfortable. It means like I just know it so well. I did it for a good chunk of my life. I want to talk about dumping the puck in and spitting chicklets and hitting guys and fights and everything. Like, I get it.

And it's cool to go into that all the time. It's comfortable. But it's awkward and uncomfortable to go into things you know like very little about. But that's where it's fun. That's where you learn things. So one of my favorite questions to ask on my podcast, but it puts people on the spot because it's not an easy question. But you're a reader, you're a thinker. so I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this, which is, I ask people what's called the Peter

Teal Paradox. Yeah, I've been thinking about it all day. Oh, good. Okay. So do you want to, actually, what do you take away from that? What is a New Deal paradox? It's what you believe that, no, actually, I want you to explain it so that I, A, we get the listener to understand what it is, and I make sure I understand what it is. So the Peter Thiel paradox is, what is one thing that you believe that no one else agrees with you on? And the reason this is a paradox is that if you say something that people agree with, then you've already failed. And I'll tell you if you have.

Like, I don't let people like get, slide one past the goalie. But then if you do say something that no one agrees with, then now you have to explain it and figure out a compelling way to make your case. So it forces you to understand, do I have ideas that are original or is most of what I believe received from somewhere else? So here's what I've thought all day.

Is that I'm a guy who listens because I feel like I've lived under a rock for a good part of my, I don't know, I went to college, studied history, read a lot, had about a five-year span where I didn't read anything. and when I first heard you use it, I looked it up and I was like, wow, that's, that's fascinating. Like, I really liked that idea. So then I sat in my truck, as you can imagine, and sat there. And I went, so what do I think about? And it's, it's an interesting thing because I don't have, like, I don't have like, hey, I think we've been to Mars before. I just, I don't know if I firmly believe that. And so what you're going to, you're going to say, well, what do you believe or what? what's one thing. It's like, well, I don't believe we're alone in the universe. I truly don't believe that. But that doesn't mean that that's not accepted by a lot of people. Well, that's probably accepted by

50%. And so what you're looking for is you're looking for something that is very, very unique. And I'm just not there yet. That's, I guess, the best way I could put it, because I'm not certain that I have a unique idea that you're looking for that it's like, wow, that is controversial or that is something I don't agree with. So the paradox itself has some flaws, right? Because some people, and I think Canadians are in this way, right? Like, you're not actually looking for conflict. And so in some ways, this thing is actually... That's the most Canadian thing in the world. Yeah. And so, so, you know, it kind of sets you up in a position where you have to say something in a way that. And that's the most something in a way that makes people disagree with you and then you find a compelling way to say it.

Whereas most of the time, the best way to get somebody to go onto your side is to never convince them that they ever didn't agree with you. So the only benefit to saying it and framing it in this way is because it really forces you to say exactly what you're doing. What is it that I think? And I think that just the act of going through this is a very valuable exercise because it pushes you to say how much of what I believe is received from other people. And I think most of the time we don't have a way to gauge that. So the line that I've been struggling with since I got in an argument with my brother, I like that you say adversaries opposed to enemies, right? Have a discussion or an argument with people that you respect essentially, right? That way you can actually come out of it.

And so I have three older brothers. We like to argue. And I got in an argument. with my one brother to the point where, you know, I said some things and I had to call him up later and just apologize. I'm like, I didn't mean that. And he laughed at me because that's what brothers do and they know. But he said, where is the line? And to me, when you say, you know, this Peter Thiel paradox, the where is the line is like you have to pick a side. And it's very uncomfortable. And it's exactly what you just said. Everybody wants to be agreeable. I just want to be agreeable. Let me be agreeable. And what he's forcing me to do is, where's the line? Because our government is pushing the line further and further until people start to step up. It's probably what governments

have done for all of time. And right now it's COVID. And is COVID bad? Yes. And is there going to be something next that's bad? Yes. That is the way the world works. And where's the line or what do you believe that nobody else believes is the line, essentially. Y'all, that's a great point. Yeah, that's, that is, right? And if you wait for somebody else to show you where that line is before you say, like Thoreau talks about like,

the only thing that I can know is the right thing to do is what I know to be the right thing to do. And so in all of my actions, even if the government said, hey, this is the right thing to do, deep down, if I can, don't think that's the right thing to do, then I am the one that's going to have to deal with the consequences of that. No one else. And I'm saying this out loud probably as much for myself as I am for anyone else because I think that we are hitting a point, we will hit a point where people

will have to say and do things that are going to make them really unpopular. And I think that the value of having a book club, the value of talking with your brothers, the value of being, of being in communities is figuring out how can I be strong when the waves are going to come at me when I have a different opinion than other people. I like that. Well, I'm watching the time. I got four minutes left. I could go on and on about this, but what I'm going to do is we're going to do this,

just this last little quick segment because I love a couple quick hitters and then I'll let you get out of here and we'll wait and see what everybody says about this. But I assume at some point I'm having you back on. That's what I assume because I've enjoyed it. The hour is flown by. Now, the final segment is a crewmaster final five. Show it to Heath and Tracy McDonald, supporters of the podcast since the very beginning.

It is five quick questions. The first one, I always ask the first time anyone's on this podcast, is who do you want to sit down with? If you could take anyone to come on your show and when I see it happen, I know you're going to be doing your little victory dance. What is it?

Oh man. I'd love to have Joe Rogan on because I don't think I've ever heard anyone that's fast enough to give him the jujitsu fight that he needs to have a conversation that I think he could have. I'm very interested to have Joe Rogan on. That's also number one on my list. I would take Joe Rogan in a heartbeat. What's one piece of wisdom through all your reading or just, life in general, uh, that you can pass along that you, that's, I should clarify, uh, clarify that's helped you along. This, uh, this concept, you actually already mentioned it. The adversaries versus enemies. That was something very flinchbow said to me. And I am a person that naturally is disagreeable. I am completely fine with, uh, with disagreeing with people. But when he said that, it really shocked me back into place of being like, when you view someone at, you, your enemy, the only thing you can want for them is total obliteration. And if you couple that with any

sort of, you know, Christian type thinking, it would be to say the reason that you love your enemies is because it allows you to not be wallowing in resentment and it allows you to want the best for them as opposed to only their annihilation. That's a really good thing for me to think about and really embrace. That's cool. What is the favorite book you've had in the last call it year? Well, right now our book club is reading a Last Babylon and it is a wild ride. It was written in 1958 and it was the first book that was really describing what would life be like if we actually had a nuclear war and it happened. Now you've got a city that's like still remains. How do people live? what are the mistakes they make, how do they rebuild society.

And so I'm always loving, the best book I've ever read is always the book I'm reading right now. That's a good answer. Hey? You've never picked a shitty book though and you're like, oh, if I don't like a book, I not only quit reading it like that, I also throw it away. I'm not one of those people that's like, oh, give it to a book library. No, if I don't like these ideas, I want them gone. What was the last book you chucked?

Oh, man, I don't know. People give me books all the time. I got no problem throwing them out. Probably bullshit on emotional intelligence. I find those books to be, like, cliched. So I hope I didn't offend anybody. He just said you're not worried about offending anyone. Well, they're your audience.

I don't want to offend your audience. For your sake. Oh, no. That's what it's all about. It's all about getting people a little bit out of their comfort zone. One last one, and then I'll let you go. If there's a podcast you're listening to that you really enjoy, because I tell you what, it hit me like a sludge over the head the other day when I heard yours again.

I'm like, man, like, I really enjoy this. Why the heck aren't I listening to? Which one you're listening to? So I'm not sure. Has your audience heard of Brett Weinstein? Is this somebody you're familiar with? So that one's probably a little passe. say, but also Lex Fredman has been doing some really cool stuff. So he's a kid from MIT that

when you first start listening to him, he's very stilted and kind of dorky, but his questions are probing. And they are, and he is, I think maybe on the spectrum somewhere. So he doesn't actually care if the other person feels uncomfortable. I don't think he's going out of his way to do that. So he asks some things that I'm like, oh, man, I'd love to ask that, but you got to look them in the eyes when you're asking them. So I like that one a lot too. Well, I appreciate you hopping on. I kept you one minute past. Thanks again, Vince. It's been cool to sit down with you for an hour. Oh, this was great, man. I really, really enjoyed this and I'm flattered you invited me on. Hey, folks, thanks for joining us today. If you just stumbled on the show, please click

subscribe. Then scroll to the bottom and rate and leave a review. I promise it helps. Remember, every Monday and Wednesday, we will have a new guest sitting down to share. their story. The Sean Newman podcast available for free on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever else you get your podcast fix. Until next time. Hey, Keeners, I hope you enjoyed today's episode a little different than, you know, the last, you know, that definitely ain't Don Cherry, isn't. But something to get your brain thinking today. I want to give a shout out today to mustard, Matt DeJong. He sent me a message last week with a screenshot of his, his, uh, truck driving along and he was listening to Quick Dick and he said fucking belly Band-Aid and he was dying laughing and if you have no idea what that means go back to

Quick Dick on episode 151 I believe where he talks about belly Band-Aid. It's pretty funny. I hope you enjoyed today's. As you heard, I thoroughly enjoyed it and got my brain working. Now go out and have a great day and if you're the champ get your feet off the desk back to work. We'll catch up you guys Wednesday.