Shaun Newman Podcast - Ep. #159 - Ben Acquaye

Episode Date: March 15, 2021

Originally from Ghana, Ben is the Chair of Business & Lakeland College with a masters in Business & Economics. White privilege, politics & ohhh so much more is in today's convo.  Let me know what you think Text me! 587-217-8500

Hi, this is Braden Holby. Hey, this is Tanner, the Bulldozer Bozer. Hi, this is Brian Burke from Toronto, Ontario. This is Daryl Sutterin. Hello, everyone. I'm Carlyagro from SportsNet Central. This is Jay On Right. This is Quiddiquity coming to you from Tuffino, Saskatchew. Hey, everybody, my name is Theo Fleary.

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I hope you had a great weekend. We got a great one on Taprey today. Me and Ben, we get into some interesting topics. He's got a very interesting perspective. He's been around the world. But before we get to today's episode, let's get to today's episode sponsors. First off, Carly Closs and the team over at Windsor,

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University in the United Kingdom. Currently he is chair and instructor, Department of Business at Lakeland College. I'm talking about Ben-A-Quae. So buckle up. Here we go. This is Ben-A-Quae, and welcome to the Sean Newman podcast.

Welcome to Sean Newman podcast today. I'm joined by Mr. Ben-A-Q-Q-A-Q-Q-Wa. So thanks for hopping in the studio with me. It's a pleasure to be with you, Sean, and quite a good setup you have here. Well, I tell you what, you're my test subject today. I don't normally have all of this equipment.

I'm trying new things, but as Maz was in here a few minutes ago, we're going to see how it goes, and we'll go from there. I like that attitude. Well, that's the only way to go, isn't it? Indeed. Give it a go and work it out.

Only way to learn is to go into that space where I'm like, I don't know what I'm doing. Sometimes you discover some interesting things along the way. Absolutely. Now, I was saying too before we started, you grew up in Ghana. Yes. What I want you to do for the listeners is if they've never heard of Ben before, kind of give them a picture of, you know, what life was like where you came from

and just kind of give us the, not the cliff notes. I want it a little deeper than that, but I'm going to stop you in parts of it and and pick your brain on some things. Absolutely. I now before we get started I know you I listen to your your recording with Ken and you have a wicked ability to delve into some really interesting areas so if I get too deep too scary for you just you know let's pull things back and you can't get too scary for me I'm I tell you what I'm I'm interested I appreciate that's a lovely comment Let's go for it. So yes, my name is Ben Aque. I'm the seventh of eight children, four boys and four girls in my household, and I'm just last but one. And I grew up in Ghana,

in West Africa, and studied a fair bit and finished my first degree in economics and geography. and then off to I want a competition to go to Germany and in fact going to Germany that was the very first time I discovered I was a minority that was a weird experience so I went to Germany

was Eastern Germany Can I ask how you say it's the first time you experienced being a minority Yes I mean I lived in Ghana all my life up until that point So that was the very first time I traveled outside. And you look around you and there weren't many people like you. And you thought, oh, okay.

Well, this is a whole different world. And how do you navigate that? And that was quite an experience to be honest. But yep, I grew up in Ghana, studied. I went to an old boys boarding school for seven solid years. You went to an all-boys boarding school for seven solid years? You went to an all-boys boarding school for seven years. Indeed.

So pre-teen to your late teens. And unlike Canada where, you know, when we say boarding school, it's like, oh, it has a different perception to it. In Ghana, actually, it's one of the best things you could do. You go in there and you go as a kid and you come out as a man. You learn essential basics of life. And that was a very, very rich experience. And immediately after finishing school, I started working. Can I stop you for a second?

Please. Yeah. Okay. So you say you go into an all-boys boarding school. You go in a boy, you come out of a man. Indeed. You say the essentials. What are the essentials then that they taught you?

Well, it's what they teach you and what you learn. You are product of what you've seen, what you've done, what has been done to you, what you've done. You know, you're a product of just a good mix of everything. And you learn how to survive. You learn how to thrive. You learn who you are. And, you know, you don't have your parents around you.

You just have other older or younger kids. And you learn how to mix it up. You learn your strength and your weaknesses and you evolve and grow. And it was actually a Christian school or Christian basics. And we call ourselves Christian gentlemen. So it's the Presbyterian boys secondary school, Presac and Lagoon. Yes. Can you pull this, Mike, so it is more in line with me.

So you talk closer to, yes. Oh, okay. Yeah, that works for me. So this is the Presbyterian Boys secondary school. It's one of the most prestigious secondary schools in Ghana, perhaps West Africa. And I worked hard, got in there. It was a privilege. It remains an absolute privilege to have gone to that school.

I credit my parents for having invested all their money into looking after all of us eight kids taking us through school and through university. That was a huge undertaking so that when I wrote my first dissertation, I said, this is to my father and mother who without any formal training in economics knew the difference between saving an investment and sacrificed their precious consumption for my education, which they knew would be an investment. And so education has always been a key part of me. I think education is crucial, is fundamental to growth and development, and to understanding each other.

I mean, without a good level of education, and I'm not just talking about formal education, I'm talking about formal and informal education. Without a good depth of education, you go to Facebook and you're only a Facebook warrior. You are only good enough to share memes. You are not able to critically assess the information you come across. And so, you know, secondary school was a huge, remains a huge part of my upbringing. You learn time management, you learn how to survive with little money, you learn how to avoid being bullied, you learn how to make sure you eat,

you learn how to look after yourself, and you learn the consequences. quite quickly and it shapes you and so after secondary school I went to work one of my first jobs was actually working in a chocolate factory I worked in Cadbury the chocolate maker I worked there and I left to go to university shortly afterwards and I went to university in a beautiful city called Comasi now before we get there before we get there I was waiting for my opportunity to just kind of slide in Feel free. Coming from, you mentioned Facebook, social media has become such a huge everything.

It is. It's probably the reason why you're the guinea pig of the day with the cameras, right? Because we all know, I shouldn't say we all know, I know that video transfers better on to social media than just hearing the audio. People want to see and interact, right? Absolutely. And so when you say critical thinking and being more than just a, a guy who can share a meme or whatever. Is that evident when you come to Canada, maybe even the UK?

I don't know. Like, do you just look around and go like, what are people thinking? Or does social media amplify that type of person? Well, it's a couple of things. Social media obviously has good points to it and has some really terrible parts to it, the bullying and a bunch of other stuff. But essentially, it is offering a microphone to any, and everybody who wants it. It is what you do, that microphone that makes a difference.

A lot of people see social media a bit like McDonald's. It's packaged, you take the meme, you share it. You don't have to cook it, you don't have to finesse it, you just consume it. Now, I don't subscribe to that part of it. I would rather get my own ingredients, critically assess the information and put out hopefully a good looking mail and a good tasting mail for anyone who comes across my feed and say, here's what I have for you. I think that that requires a bit more thought and that requires you to pay attention to some details as well. But I can understand that some people just think, you know what, it's a ready meal. Someone has already said something. I'm just going to share that clip without any commentary, I think that is disappointing. But hey, it's free speech

and anytime there is an opportunity for people to speak, that is a good thing. So yes, developing and sharpening critical thinking skills was a key part of me. University in Ghana was awesome. I studied again economics and geography in my bachelor's joint majors in them at investing in Kumase. Now I'll tell you a little bit about Kumasa. Kumasa is the capital city of the Ashanti kingdom. And the Ashantis have a wicked history of being warriors and fighters and just brave people. and it was a little bit of a statement of pride going to school at that prestigious university and not just going to school but actually making a difference I got involved in some student

politics and I came out at the end being the public relations officer for multiple seven, eight, ten thousand student body population. It was a wicked experience. And then immediately after that, I worked a little bit and then started traveling. So then, you know, left Ghana, went to Germany, went to Switzerland, went to, you know, there's a lot of traveling then. And it was for, you know, competitions and conferences and things like that. And interacting and just discovering the world was bigger than just Ghana and Africa. and making some lifelong friends along the way.

And then I wanted to go do my master's in Germany. I fell in love in Germany after visiting a few times. What was it about Germany that sold you? What was there about? Quite a number of things. So around that time, like many kids in Ghana, you grew up loving football. Let's call it soccer, but football.

Now, we had a Ghanaian superstar in Germany called Anthony Yaboa. And my goodness, the guy was good. He was just banging in the goals, left, right center, top of highlight shows all the time. And, you know, you grew up learning about Germany, but he didn't have also the best experiences. There was a moment he, I think he got disciplined for one kind of way that. because he rebelled against what he thought was some racist behavior by a coach. So I went to Germany mindful that this is a place which could be accepting, but it's a place where there could also be some instances where there could be some unfair treatment.

I was pleasantly surprised. I went to the eastern part of Germany. I was pleasantly surprised by the experience, how warm and kind experience. experience was and actually fell in love with a place and people. I went back to Ghana, used my own money to study German because I was going to do my master's there. So you know German? I've not practiced in a little while, but I studied German. How many languages do you know, Beth? Quite a few. Come on. What's quite a few? I know one. Well, I know more than one. So there is that. So anyway, Went to Germany.

You didn't answer my question. How many languages you got? I've not actually stopped to count. Work up at least two or three local languages. Then there's English and then there's a teeny amount of German. That's it. When you say local languages, so growing up, there was different dialects? No, no, no, completely different languages.

Completely different. Oh, yes. Completely different. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you're going to the store, you're rolling in and you just, You have to just speak in whatever option works for the other guy. I mean, the truth is, most immigrants, most people with the kind of background I have speak multiple languages.

It's just you pick it up, you learn it as you go. You never really like, wait, what? No, you just pick it up. Just like, you know, one of the things we surprised me when I went to England, I'll tell you the connection. But somebody said to me, excuse me, could you read that for me? I thought, wait, what? you can speak English so beautifully, why can't you read that? Then it turns out that that's how they grew up just speaking the language without necessarily

learning it. So that's the difference between just speaking it at home versus wait, did you pause to learn how to read and write or you just learned how to speak it? And then you discover that was a bit of a shock to me that there were people who could speak English, but who couldn't just read and write it? And then it occurred to me that, oh, okay, when it comes some of our local languages back home, many people could say it, but not necessarily read or write it. So I was forming some connections along the way. I didn't go to Germany to study my master's because my friends were like, what are you doing going to Germany? Come to England.

And at that age, you listen to your friends. So I listened to my friends and went to England. I was in England for how long? About 10, 11 years. Yeah, studied, met my wife there, got married. Seems if you met your wife there, your friends at least did something right for you. Well, I mean, friends influence you. And friends influence you.

and there's nothing particularly wrong with that. You know, you yourself have to be convinced that this makes sense. So, yeah, sure. Of course they tell you, look, it's great. Yeah, your German friends are like, come here and you analyze the two. You know, I'll go here instead. So it turned out to be a wonderful experience in the UK. studied at a few universities there, went to Kingston University, just outside London in Surrey.

That's great. And then went to University of Greenwich, went to Oxford Brooks University twice. And children showed up and the study is hard to stop. The study is hard to stop. And then we got working flat out. working, settling down, doing the traditional things you're supposed to do. And then move to Canada one day. So I want to know growing up, what did you say, the seventh of eighth?

Yes. Okay. So I don't deserve to be here. When you are child number seven, you know you have no right to be here. Absolutely not. I mean, how many seven bones do you know? I don't know. What is the seventh entitled to?

Well, the thing is, most parents stop at two or three or four or five. My friend, Kenny, I don't know if Kenny's at six, isn't he? Kenny, that's one of the connections I have with Kenny. Kenny is special. You know, once in a while I say, Kenny, you're not like the typical white guy. You're not very white inside, you know, just. know, because of how we connect. But, you know, Kenny is a special dude, and we connect on many levels.

He is the only Canadian friend I have who has actually met a real member of my family in Ghana. No kidding. We have a. He is also, I hope he doesn't mind me saying this, but he's got parent to my daughter. And he's really close. be really close. Well, I should point out, Kenny was my, my first guest. Oh. And then, I know that. And then he's been on twice since then. And it took me some arm twisting to get him on the next couple of times.

But in saying that, I think very highly a Kent. Ken talks awfully highly of you. And then I had a student reach out and say, you got to get Ben on. I'm like, all right, I'm game with it. Oh, that's very kind. Yeah, I think you come very highly recommended. That is impressive. I mean, there's, I think it must be a dry season to have someone like me here because I've seen the kind of where you've been interviewing and I don't belong on that list but if this doesn't make the cut I would fully understand I think it's okay I think earmuffs for a second to my mother I think bullshit I personally personally I started this with the idea that everyone has a story right like not just not just Don Cherry or Rah McLean or those guys and right

Now I'm really struggling with, is it as bad as what the one side's saying? And how do you figure that out? Sitting on social media, I don't think you figure anything out. And so I'm trying to expand the circle in which I talk to. That makes sense. Right? Let's find some guys who've seen things outside of, you know, I'm saying it before. I've been a married girl from the States, so I see her family in Minneapolis and hear the stories from there.

And I've been across all of Canada. I've seen the wonderful people of Canada. been over to Finland, seen the wonderful people there. I've actually been to Germany and Spain and France. Like, I've seen something. You've seen a fair bit. I haven't sunk into the culture as near much as you have. But at the same time, you growing up in a different culture, a different country, I go, there's got to be some, some diamonds in the rough we can find.

There is. There is. Like, when I speak with Kenny, when I speak with Kenya, for example, and we talk about, we talk about freedoms. right? Talk about freedoms. Well, because right now, that's a big thing, right? Are freedoms being taken or not back? Well, it depends. So now this is one thing I do.

Whenever I come across a situation, I ask myself, what is my default? And then secondly, wait, where am I? What do my surroundings dictate? And then try and understand what my surroundings feel like before I bring in my personal element. For example, it's something called the self-reference criterion. I'll not get too academic here. But when you see something, you ask you say, wait, would I ever do a thing like that?

And the second thing is, wait, what is the context that helps you rationalize things? Growing up in a country which was ruled by a military dictator, which then became a democracy, my experience of freedom is quite different. When the government says, guys, we have a raging pandemic and the information we have, the best information we have says, we need to take some steps to keep this pandemic in check.

I'm like, okay, I get it. I totally get it. But when you come from a world where you are not used to the government saying, I'm going to restrict your moves and this and that. I can understand why you would say, how dare you? So I get it. And then the other part says,

okay, so how do we objectively assess the situation? I can tell you that in Ghana, when they said, if you travel here, we will put you in a hotel and you will pay for it. No questions. No one but annihilate. If prior to that, you show up at the airport, they put you in a bus, drive you somewhere with your luggage, everything,

throw you into a hotel or whatever. Stick men with AK47s outside and you shut up. I can understand why that happens and that is power for the course. Here, it's different. I remember when this time last year, we were all looking at China, like, look at the restrictions China put on Chinese and they shut things down. It's like, wow. And then they really clamp down, took their medicine and shut this thing down real. I know there are so many issues about starting from China, but that's not the point right now.

The point is these rules work in their environment because it fit with your culture. I think in Canada, politicians made a mistake by not involving sociologists, by not involving people who understand Canadians when they formulated their response to the virus. And so we were bringing in strategies and techniques which have worked well somewhere, but which we're not going to work here. And that contributed to some of the conversation around freedoms and so on and so forth. So I understand places where there were tight restrictions. And I understand the resistance to, I don't think the restrictions they were that tight.

But I understand the resistance to it. It's just because I've come from a world where... You've come from a world where you just said it. You got AK-47s they throw you don't tell you don't say anything. You shut up. I mean, this is how, I wouldn't say how bad it is. it's different. Like when people die of COVID,

their bodies are never released their families. In some cases, the country buries the person. We want to shut this thing down and we will restrict your freedoms to allow us to shut this thing down

and you will take it. And to be fair, it seems to have worked in a population of over 30-something million. Only about 6, 620 or 30 people, less than a third of people in Alberta. Only about that number who have died in Alberta have died in Ghana. Because they shut it down and they impose harsh restrictions and there has significant consequences.

So I'm just saying different cultures accept different rules and restrictions. It reminds me of, I always say that the troubling thing, is they want to paint everything with one brush, right? That's fine. So you're saying cultures have different, and to me it's the same. And even in Saskatchewan, it's the same, right? I don't know how you can treat Saskatoon the same as Hillman where I'm from, right? Absolutely.

It makes no sense. But if you take in what you're saying, they're just trying to shut things down. The problem people probably have here, but maybe I'm just, you know, that's why I love having new conversations that challenge your brain to think about it. Absolutely. Because you're a guy who's going, yeah, you just get thrown in a hotel and you just don't think about it and you shut up and that's fine. That's if you're lucky because the other option is they throw you into a boarding house where the kids are not in school anymore. Throw you in there. A bunch of mosquitoes will have

fun with you. But the point is they are shutting this down whether you like it or not. Is it worse shutting down at all costs, Ben? Yes and no. It depends on what price society. it is prepared to pay for it. We know the science says it's killing people, real people, but we also know when you shut down, there are lots of consequences. People who expect treatment for a raft of medical issues suddenly get pushed a backburner, which caused death, devastation and pain and anger immensely.

But then society has a choice to make. Do we want to just live with this and watch it ravage everything around us? Or do we want to take some action to stem it? And what is the price for taking what action? And, you know, I think different Canadian provinces are prepared to pay different prices. As you can see, way out east, they seem to be more accessible. of the toughest of restrictions. But wouldn't that be directly correlated to where the population lies?

If you're in a dense, dense population, this stuff has the ability to spread. That's its, I don't mean best characteristic, but its biggest characteristic is that it spreads fast to multiple people. Well, you're sitting in Lloydminster. I'm not saying Lloydminster isn't populated, but compared to Toronto, wouldn't that seem backwards to, to take same precautions at the same spots?

One medicine wouldn't work for everybody, but then the challenge that politicians face is, here is the science, here's the economics, and these two don't mix very well, and they also have their own interests, that they need to figure out, you know, they need to factor in, okay, if we shut this down,

Are people going to support me? Because the population can tell you, oh, yeah, shut it down, shut it down. And you shut it down the next moment, the same population is like, why did you shut it down? Like, why did you do that? Now, you don't have that benefit the population has to change your minds like that. I mean, somebody would literally, yeah, go on, do it, do it, do it. And then you do it. Next moment is like, well, I mean, you, you know, there's the saying that you

get what you pay for, right? That was free advice. Obviously, you took it with some risk. So the politicians know that, okay, they are going to pay a political price for this. Now, what political price are they willing to pay? Some will pay the price for indecision. And some will reap the rewards for that. I mean, different societies reward and punish their politicians differently. But on the bigger picture, you know, the whole freedom thing, do I think people's freedoms have been completely attacked and eliminated? Heck now, what really can you not do under the restrictions you're facing? Tell me, apart from a haircut and some other stuff, tell me what you really cannot do.

Well, the things that are concerning are the hotels. Now, this is what's lovely about having you across the table, because you have seen I don't know if worst of humanity would be the right, but you've definitely seen a few things. Yeah, yeah. So it is confusing and a little bit alarming to me that a government will take people and just take them away and throw them in a hotel.

That's, that's, I don't, I don't want to go there. I really don't. It is, it is fair, but you know they would have told you in advance this was going to happen. Look, I have taken, I've taken friends. But, but the thing. that was confusing about it to me back when we did me can and tanner the the videos that were coming out they had they hadn't they were giving a date for people to come back right if you're back

by this time it won't come into effect blah blah blah blah makes sense but then you find out the more it goes on that they've been actually doing it for more days than that and so that's that's confusing and confusion leads to me going something feels a little off here that's right that's fair the the uh Nobody in your house. It's like, yeah, I can kind of get that for a short period of time, sure. The snitch line, you're starting to get a little bit. No, no, no. I'm not accepting that.

I told Kenny, I said, for a lot of white people, this is the first time they've been walking around thinking, is my neighbor going to snitch on me or not? It's the first time, it's like, wait, are people watching me? Like, am I all right? You say, this is your first experience of, Oh dear. Did my neighbor see a few vehicles come into my, into my driveway? Are they calling somebody now? So do you have, do you have a different perspective?

Of course. I walk around knowing I'm being watched. I walk around knowing any bad move, you make somebody feel uncomfortable, something's going to happen. I walk around with that at the back of my mind. See, and this is why I live under a bloody rock band. You don't have to cross the road when you think your passing next to somebody will make them feel uncomfortable. You don't have to do that. You have to do that. I have had to do that many times.

I've had to moderate myself to make other people feel comfortable. And even then, that moderation has not been enough. So that is a self-reference criterion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, if it's Christmas time, like, you talk to any minority, any immigrant, anybody with, like, first generation immigrant background, and say to them, hey, Christmas, you don't get to see your parents. Like, that's fine. Like, I know when I moved to Canada, I wouldn't see my parents every Christmas.

I zoomed them. I call them. I remember the time I had to put money in a little phone box in England to call my parents to say, hey, guys, how are you? And then they see watch their pennies just disappear. Like, hey, so it was pleasure to talking to you guys. Thank you. Goodbye.

And that's it. So if I get an upgrade to make a Zoom call, where we get to see. each other and like don't have to pay ridiculous money for it. I'm like this is a bit of a steel. Yeah, but you but this is just my self-reference guy. Well, that's what I'm going to say. You've been on the road traveling from Ghana number seven of eight. It doesn't go gone from your family. It doesn't stop me, Sean. If your kids when they get older, we're down the road from you, living in little farming community. You're sitting there. And they're like, no, you're not going to see them. And you're like, well, that, that's fine. Well, just as good.

That's cool. Indeed. I got it worse than you are getting it. So shut up and put up with it. Look, but it doesn't, the fact that, you know, I can understand that, oh, man, I got people on my timeline like, my neighbor snatched on me. I'm like, okay, easy now. Okay. Let me help you through this really stressful moment because I have a little bit of experience being watched, feeling watched,

feeling judged. So I can help you through this. I can use the little resilience I have built to help you, you know, to support you in your time of need. How do you go on social media living in this area then?

Because I assume you see that over and over and over again. Why do? I see a lot of things which make me think. I mean, that's ridiculous. I'll tell you a quick one here. A couple of days ago, I saw this, meme. I don't like memes because they are like the McDonald's of social media. It's like take each shit. It's very nice, easy and lazy. And, you know, it makes you fight. I thought you're going to say take each shit. But anyways, carry on. You know, I understand the sentiment. But I've got,

I'm going to have students hear this and I need them to know I speak properly all the time. Now, does it bother you then that I swear? It doesn't bother me. Why would it? bother me. If we were in Ghana, if we were in Ghana, it would bother me. But being here doesn't bother me. In Ghana, you don't swear? Usually, like, when there will be grownups and other people who are going to listen to the conversation, like you did a little excuse for your mom, you would do that and you would restrain yourself as much as possible. So I've grown up sitting on those liberties for quite a while and I'm pretty used to it by now. But let's get back to the thing. There was this meme about, hey, if you look at a typical American or Canadian home

and you take all the things that are not made there and made in China, there will be nothing left. Man, we have to buy only American or we have to only buy Canadian and pay that extra 20% for it. And I'm looking at this thinking, that doesn't make sense. I mean, if you only go to buy Canadian, have you seen the weather outside? Why are you think you going to go of fresh flowers from? And fresh fruits and a bunch of other things. That idea. So social media accentuates some poor thinking and so on.

And these memes are the main tools for that. I've told my students in class yesterday, guys, what do you think about it? It doesn't make sense, he said. Why? Because trade is not a zero-sum. game. It's not about you buy from me, I get your money. I'm rich.

You're not. Well, if you buy from me, you use what you've bought to produce something I may need later down the line. See what happens when Canada had some issue with the telecoms lady and then China picked up the two Michaels. And on top of that, they said, we're not going to buy your canola. suddenly people discovered, oh, trade is a big deal.

So if I'm only going to buy a Canadian and a Chinese say, I'm not going to buy any Canadian stuff, we run into a roadblock real quick. So on social media, I try to restrain myself. I look at these comments, I understand the context where they're coming from. If they are really close to me and they are friends, I will try to. challenge them fiercely. But if they are not, I'll just walk away.

It's not worth it. Well, I certainly hope over the next 25 minutes, I can convince you we're friends because I really, really enjoy this. And I really enjoy having a perspective that is so very different because that's how we get better, I think, right? Having ideas that challenge,

because now I get to, no matter what happens at the end of us, I get to go home, I tell this can all the time. I go home and I'm probably going to dream and chew on this for the next week. I don't know. But that's what I don't know how to do that any different. That's what my brain does.

I really enjoy different ways to look at things. And when all you hear is the world is coming to an end, get your pitchforks out, and I'm putting a way too simple. But we need to revolt right now. Now the people on that side are going to be hating all. me because they're going to go, but you've got to be careful because they've taken and taken. But it's always good to hear the opposite side because I think there's a healthy balance there. Oh, there is. Absolutely.

When you see the bigger picture, you don't have to agree with it. You just have to see it. You just have to understand. So this is why this happens and this is why that happens. You just have to understand it. And after you have understood it, then you ask yourself, okay, what choices do I have? in this matter so you don't just go and walk around like a fake warrior okay now politics is the art of compromise but compromise has become a dirty word for no valuable well that's a good question because if you've been watching our politics go on right now what do you think of what's going like all i i've been so confused by this bet Right. I was, I don't know. I say this all the time. I know, I've heard other people talk about like having an awakening. I don't know if that's what it is. It happens at different stages in your life, right? Maybe at 20 you have it. Maybe at 15 you go to an old boys boarding school and you have it. Maybe you don't hear it until 45. Doesn't matter. The point is, I didn't really follow politics that much until I started having kids. I was 29 and 30. 30. And I started like,

What is going on? Like this really hurts my head. And every year that goes by, it just seems to get worse, right? Nobody's talking. Nobody's sitting down. And I know you don't want to see the other side win every debate. No. But at the same time, you're there.

Like, a democracy is there to ensure, you know, the liberties, the rights of the people below you to try and help everybody, you know, that's... Indeed. To help us all grow. A friend of mine, a colleague says, people work. The motivation is, what am I going to be rewarded for? And then they work towards that. It's a shame that politics today, I mean, I'm not going to say it's the worst because it's not. But it's a shame that we have moved away increasingly from the heart of politics,

which is, what is your idea versus this other idea? Let's see which idea makes sense. Full stop, which idea makes sense. Full stop. It saddens me when people say, this is who I vote for, this is who my parents voted for, this is who my grandparents voted for,

and this is who I am till thy kingdom come. Wait, what? Why? Because when someone knows your vote is a given, why the heck would they take you seriously? What's the incentive? What's the motivation? They don't have to work for it. But it doesn't work like that.

In a relationship where you promise the other person, I'm going to love you till death. And they promised you, I'm going to love you till death. Literally promised, signed. You still have to put in your work every day, every night. But people forget that. They do and they run into problems.

Sadly, when it comes to politics, it's like, my support is guaranteed. Take it. Why? Just why? That's wrong. Because it makes people lazy. It makes people think, I don't have to work for this.

But when they discover that, you know what, I don't need this shouting and this meming. I want you to give me your best ideas. How would you have handled this coronavirus? Tell me. Well, there you go. Because we haven't trained them. We haven't let them know we demand alternatives that we can assess.

Ask my students a case question. Look at this business. Sean Newman's podcast. Here are the financials. Here's the competition. here are the listener number's, give me an analysis and tell me what the problem is.

And after telling me the problem, tell me the alternatives to solve it. Give me three. And for each one, tell me the pros and cons, the short and long term cost and benefits. And then tell me your recommendation. We don't go through that with politicians. We give them a free pass.

And they, on the other hand, look at us and think, okay, I don't have to work so hard to make you happy. I'm going to make some other people happy. So is that why you want to get into politics? Well, I go into politics. I told Kenny, because my students were like,

Ben, you've been telling us so much about ideas and how we should battle things out. Why don't you give it a shot? I said, okay, that's fine. Challenge accepted. I got in and I discovered, okay, and Kenny is quite surprised by how bad it is. But I wanted a thorough debate on the issues. And I did not get any debate on the issues.

It was as if people are afraid to sit down, let's debate the issues. This is what it's become. It's okay, what crafty thing that has been researched to be effective in messaging can I use to get you to like me? And that's sad. The experience was not surprising because I expected that, but it was disappointing. Kenny was my campaign manager. And he was like, Benny, why don't these guys want a debate? why don't these guys want ideas challenge like no so so therefore if that process is not thorough

it doesn't yield somebody who has gone through the mail and so imagine politics being like the NHL and somebody getting to play in the NHL without having gone through that process imagine what kind of people will be playing up at the NHL level that's what we have. So how do we change that? Because I have had this argument with people for, it has got to be going on like 10 years now. Because I don't understand why the best aren't in politics.

I mean, from the way my brain looks at it, if you're in politics, you get to dictate how a country's rant, essentially, right? You make decisions that affect people's day-to-day lives. Right. So I've been arguing Why don't the best get in politics? And people say Absolutely the number one thing that comes up

Is there isn't enough money in it Those best of us can go earn a better living Blah blah blah blah blah blah Like yeah but the guys who impact you Are the guys who run over here And get to impact everything you do And then all you get to do is sit there And complain about it

And if you wanted to make a change today Now you've got to take the 10 years You should have already been doing to get to the point where you can make the change. Old habits die hard. Old habits die hard. It's a lot of good people are frustrated by the experience of public service. It is very easy.

Like when I see that whole pointless argument about private sector and public sector, oh, private sector, good, public sector, not good. That teacher doing their job, ah, got a stable income, not good. Or that private person building the school, good. Wait, where's the money coming from? Same government that gives a contract to build a school. The same government that pays a teacher to teach kids in the school. However, contractor, private business check, awesome.

Public sector worker, oh man, you get it so cheap. So a lot of our defaults need to be reset. When people beat up on immigrants, oh, immigrants came and they took my job. It's like, well, if that job had your name on it, then you can say somebody literally took it from you. But if it didn't have your name on it, how did that person take it from you?

Plus, I thought it was all about ability, talent, and what you're offering. Listen, I'm reading, my father has been on me to read the Fort Pit Trail book. It just is a bar calling us. I've been seeing your comment on Twitter. Well, I've been doing it every day because he was on me and finally I got annoyed.

I'm like, fine, I'm going to start reading it every morning when I'm up with the kids. I'll get up, I'll read a family story. I'll try and pick something out. And what I always find hilarious, well, not hilarious. I mean, just. interesting about the immigrant thing is like, do people all forget? Like, that's how we all came here. Unless you're first nations, you're an immigrant. But you see, the point is we need somebody to prod us.

Say, hey, stop, wait. What are you doing? But very often, we hang out with people who only tell us what we want to hear. It's like social media. We block people. No, don't share. But you've seen the social dilemma, have you not? I've seen it. Okay. So it's doing it for you. It is.

But wait, the social dilemma... I've been trying really hard. The social dilemma learned by watching our behaviors. Oh, people who are like this only live in this neighborhood. Oh, so you like some positive reinforcement? Oh, really? That's what makes you take? Well, guess what?

We're going to give you a ridiculous, dosage of that. And so the social dilemma, just, I mean, growing up, you see people live in a setting community, that community. I mean, look at New York, look at so many other big cities. These people only live here, interact and do this, do this, do this, do this, do this. So the social media people looked at this and thought, I think we see a trend here. We're just going to feed you what you've ever liked. Personally, I tell people, I don't like, I don't block people on social media.

I don't. I dislike what you're saying, but I don't want the algorithm to only feed me things that would make me happy because that forces me into a nice little silo. And I think everyone else outside a silo is not good and proper. And this is where we are today.

Well, that's exactly what I try and do on social media. I try and follow, not follow, I just, I want to be challenged. I want to have to think about something. My wife coming from Minneapolis challenges me all the time. Sometimes it drives a guy up the wall. Indeed. But that's a good. You need that.

You need that. You need positive reinforcement too. You need that. But overall, you need to be challenged on, you can't just get set in your ways. The world is ever changing. I think too many of us here, well, surround ourselves with people that, yeah, you're right, you're right, and don't want to challenge things, right? No. Status quo, status quo, status quo.

They don't challenge, you know, are thinking, look at Facebook and ask yourself, when was the last time somebody challenged something I posted? When was the last time? you might be different because I've read your post and I think some of them are fantastic. Thank you. I'm thinking about myself. I don't know the last time I posted, who's going to challenge me on something on Fort Pitt Trail? Like, really? What can you say to that?

When was the last time you were challenged on social media is probably a better question? Not because what did you put that was worth, that was challengeable? Indeed. Indeed. Or when was the last time you saw something, you didn't quite agree with it? And you thought, wait a minute. I don't mean you have to do it publicly. I have sent many people a little direct message

because then they don't feel like they're going to look stupid. They feel like, okay, Ben, there's no, there are no eyes watching. Now we've got to discuss this issue. Like, well, I kind of see where you're coming from. And then they think, oh, okay, next time I'm going to think twice before I'll post something because this guy's going to come on my case and going to force me to be responsible. So I had Rahm McLean on here, right? Yeah, yeah.

And Rahm McLean talked about white privilege, and I'm sure you have your own thoughts on it. Indeed. I felt like I walked into World War II, and I don't mean to make light of World War II, but I thought I walked into World War II in a leotard with a spear in my hand and got blown out of the water. And not because I didn't it's really Forced me since I had him on that if I'm gonna have them on again I want to make sure that I at least have done a little bit of preparing for What's coming at me because I felt like I got run right over it could happen yes

I I I think When it comes to social media and even this even with the podcast I've heard complaints about what I like complaints I mean somebody once told me me, I'm vanilla, right? Who can get really mad at vanilla?

It's, it's, it's, you're just, you're trying, or you're, you're just feeling the process. And I'm like, I, I, I feel like before I stick my flag in the hill and go, this is my hill and I'm not, I got to find out what the hell is first. Indeed. I want to, I want to talk to people. You should be, you should be, it starts with a willingness to entertain views that you don't ordinarily hear or see. I have that Aristotle quote in my Twitter bio

that it takes as an educated mind entertains an idea without necessarily accepting it just entertain the idea just play with it think about it but we increase in a lot of people

who don't want to be discerning just say please I don't want to, like you mentioned white privilege. You got somebody who says, well, let me tell you about my upbringing. It doesn't mean that some white people did not have a tough upbringing. It means, generally speaking, the challenges you face are not as bad as the challenges a lot of other people come across. So I got to give you my backstory on white privilege. because white privilege, I remember getting in an argument with my wife about it.

It's funny, just two words can fire me up so much. Now, this is a year ago. And so she looked at me and she just went, why does it bother you so much? I really had to chew on that. That's something I've chewed on for a long time. The why. The why, yeah, not, you know. And the why for me always comes back to my heritage,

with the Fort Pitt Trail. To coming over on, man, I can't think of too many people who would want to do what the bar colonists did go through that. Heck, I'm starting to read of, you know, some of them turn around and tuck a tail and going, man, this sucks. Like the weather, the conditions, learning a new occupation, like having no farming background, going halfway across the world, to go into minus 40 to try and figure it out,

try and make you know you your wife and your kids survive and i don't know the privilege in that you know when you look at some of these specific narrow cases it is possible to come out thinking wait where's the privilege in there but when you just broaden their lens and look at everyday life every day coming and going the default settings in people's minds. Like I said, Christmas time, you having neighbors coming over, you suddenly thought, wait, somebody's going to

snitch on me? Yeah. That would have been the first time you thought somebody was going to snitch on you. For many other people who don't look like you, it's just an everyday occurrence. How then...

And the fact that you don't have to worry about that, It's privilege. In going back to Ghana, you said before you left Ghana, you'd never been a minority. No, no, never. Right. So when you were in Ghana, did you have to worry about people snitching on it? I mean, there are always divisions within people.

So when the phrase white privilege is used, it is used in a much bigger context. For example, white countries, white dominated countries get to tell developing countries how much they will pay for their raw materials. Developing countries don't get to determine how much they pay for exports from Western countries.

Coco coffee. I come from a cocoa cocoa producing country. You think we get to set the world price? No, we take. You know, so this is where I struggle. And this is, I'm glad we're talking about it,

Because I really, oh, I'm glad we're going to talk about this. Maybe this is where I wanted it to go. Is the thing I struggle with it with is it feels like, like original sin, right? Like white privilege. Now I have something to feel guilty for it. I don't know. I haven't been, I don't know. I just, I kind of shirk away.

Kind of like, what have I done to have a label like that placed on me? And when you narrow it in, you go, what you say, it's like, well, you're focusing too close. You've got to focus worldwide. Absolutely. So then I go, yeah, but I'm not worldwide. I'm sitting in a little, you know, and I'm doing the best I can for my little area and trying to make sure that everybody gets their fair shake. And I think I'm not going to sit here and say all people are like that. Hell, we all know across the world, as many good people as there is, there is not, there are bad people.

What you're talking about is this giant lens of government's imposterone. their will now one could say not just that I mean it's just it's just the everyday things that you might take for granted that other people who don't look like you cannot take but if I went to Ghana tomorrow would I not have some of the same like you know what I'll tell you this when Kenny went to Ghana yeah he was treated much nicer than I would probably be treated when I was Ghana with him. You know what?

Actually, this, this is, this is another, another privilege you enjoy that you don't even know about. Like, when I have to go to another country, I'm doing my research. I'm thinking, what passport do I need? What visas do I need? What this, that, that do I need? And when I show up with, and in the last, what, five years, I've traveled every summer with a group of white friends to developing countries.

And we went to this place in Tanzania. And they were told some Canadians were coming over. So we got there. There is me. There's a white lady. That's a white man. And it's like, oh, this is. So I told my crew, I said,

you guys watch this. You're going to be treated much nicer than me. They were like, nah, nah, nah, nah, no. We watch. We get there. They say, oh, and here's a chair for you, the lady. mom and they said to the man please we have this chair for you right at the top of the table and they said to me who was the leader of the delegation said to me you sit over there in the

corner and they too looked at me like Ben you said it you said it that was that default at work right there and then of course the bigger issues look at what's happening in the states where your average black person is by default, accuse of something before any proof. How many white people? Of course, some do get shot and everything like that. But what is the default? When you see a cop, do you think,

if I show any attitude, I may not go home tonight? No, you don't. You saw what happened on General Sake. You saw white people. privilege in full display. People pushing cops. You saw that.

Because the default is I think I know you. I think you know. Yes. So that is how it manifests. We're not saying that many white people don't go through many struggles. Of course.

That's just a matter of fact. We just say that the defaults that white people people have to deal with, it's different. And it is coming to terms to acknowledge it. Just acknowledge it. In the last month, we've had Black History Month. I am so impressed with so many of my students. Ben, talk about Black History Month. Tell us some of the black successes that we need to know, some of the histories, some of the stories. because I grew up in a world where we say, until the lions have their own historian,

the story of the hunt will always glorify the hunter. Until Aboriginal and First Nations people have their own historians, the story about what happens to Aboriginals and First Nations will only be told from a different perspective. And when that perspective tells the story, it would leave out so many essential things. Like, these are some of the powerful things that I get to share with my students. And they're like, tell us, because we've not had to learn that.

All the examples you see in textbooks until recently have been based in the West. All the examples. And it's like, it's just part of course. I told my students, when we had buy them. Band-aid in a different skin tone, people were like, what's the big deal? Yeah, it's a big deal because you've always had band-aid in your skin tone. For me, that has not been the default.

I mean, so these little, little things, when you look at it in the big, which is like... Dumb, dumb question. Even in Ghana, you didn't have Band-Aids in your skin tone? No. Really? No. Because when it's manufactured, they don't think... I mean, when Coca-Cola started putting names on bottles,

Do you think they put Ghanaian names on Ghanaian Coca-Cola bottles? No, they put Western names on them. On the people were like, what are you guys doing? Before they started putting African names on African Coca-Cola bottles, which were bottled in Africa, in African countries. So it's just the default. The default is, hey, yeah, this is okay. And so you walk around with that default without having to worry about stuff.

Like, you see a good holiday deal, you buy it. It's the first question that pops into your mind. Wait, do I need a visa to go there or don't I need a visa? It's not part of your consideration. Just buy the deal, show up at the airport. Well, wait, like if you're going out of, I could be making this way too simplistic. But if I'm going out of country, I know I got to have a passport and everything else. Passport and what else?

I don't know. That's it. That's the difference. I know I don't just need a passport. I need a visa. Why do you need a visa? Good question, because for many, many countries, before you show up, they should have approved your visit before you show up. That, you don't know, this is a small example of white privilege.

The session with Ben is in, isn't it? No, for real. Like, in my travels, I say, guys, you don't just. I don't mean to make light of it. I'm trying to process everything you're saying right now. And I don't know if I'm a slow learner or not. But that's what I mean when I chew on some things. I appreciate that.

I'm going to have to go home and I'm going to have to really sit and chew on this. And you set off the hop. I don't know. I'm not on the same line as all your guess. Well, earmuffs mom. Earmuffs, Ben. Earmuffs students. Bullshit.

This has been good. I've really enjoyed this. I appreciate it. And I appreciate you coming in. and sharing some of this with me because I go back to it. You've got to challenge the way your brain thinks. You got to.

Or at least that's the way I want to live my life. I have had to because if I took you to a city in Ghana and you were waiting for the bus, right? You would do a very typical Canadian thing. Which is? You will line up. You will join a line. and wait for the bus.

And then the bus shows up and guess what happens? Everybody makes a rush for it. And then what happens? You are left behind soaking wet. What just happened? Exactly. A month later, I think your elbows will be a bit more sharp next time. But isn't that figuring out a culture?

Isn't that? Indeed. How would you know nothing to do that? So I always think of, I always think of when I went to the, was in France, and went on the subways underneath Paris and got elbowed by a nice little old lady who I'm sure was a sweetheart, but she was throwing some some haymakers. And I got hit by one of those and I was like, what on earth just happened? You learn quickly. I mean, in many ways, look, different societies do things differently.

And the beauty of it is just going there without any prejudice and just watching and learning and thinking, hmm, when I teach at my students a bunch of these things, I'm saying to them, we are not judging. We are just learning. We are not saying this is right or this is wrong. We are discovering. What happens here and what happens there? I love the line that you, I think he wrote in a post, said, listen to understand instead of listening to question.

And I agree very, very much with that. That's how I've approached the podcast or tried to. It doesn't mean that I'm slowly starting to question some things, right? Like, I want to learn. I want to know more. I feel like that's what a lot of people are after. Indeed. I mean, and you have discerning listeners who are ready to evaluate things,

who are ready to assess things, who don't just expect you to tell them how to think. You don't have McDonald's customers who say, Sean, give me something nicely packaged so I can just eat. Just don't need to warm it up. eat. No, you have people who say, Sean, show me the ingredients. Show me your thinking, but give me space to assess things for myself, and that's beautiful. Now, we just hit a quarter after. Do I got you for a few more minutes? Go ahead. Okay. I will get a few angry phone calls if people

are listening to us, and I don't ask masters in economics about government spending right now. and how it just never seems to end. Now, maybe that's fine. Maybe you're like, yeah, it's not a big deal. But I've got a master's academics sitting across me. So I'm curious on what your thoughts are to change the subject here to something that is very much happening. It is.

Look, right of the bat, I'm going to tell you that politics and economics are like oil. and water. They don't mix very well. Even when you mix them, they'll still separate. If you want to make a good political decision, quite often it's not the best economic decision you make. If you want to make a good economic decision, quite often, it is not the best political medicine people want to pay.

So, having said that, in Alberta, our government said, We want to bring our spending down to match what other provinces do. It was a bitter pill, but the public has by and large swallowed it. Guess what? By the end of next year, we would have achieved that. And guess what? The deficit will be 10 billion plus.

Okay. Now, okay. You've matched the spending. Yeah, much the spending. Now what? Go on. Now what? You know, the balance sheet has two sides, right?

So you've tidied the spot up. This is the elephant in the room. It's right there. Other provinces also have other ways of getting revenue. Now, selling this message is one tough. sell. I do it in a classroom. Easy, piece of me. Easy. You want to be like other provinces? It's a bit like in the Bible, right? When the Israelites were asked, they said, we want kings just like other people who have kings. And God said, oh, you want kings? Okay, sure, you get kings.

And then those kings came over and started treating them so badly just like other kings of other places. Okay, God, I think we want something slightly. No, no, no, no. This is what? do this, you get it. So, you know, that's the thing. You want to spend like other provinces, well, guess what? We will get there very soon. But the deficit is still with us. Then what? Maybe the point then will be, maybe we start to start earning revenue like the other provinces do. Are we prepared for this? Is the population ready for it? Because if the population is not ready, it would take a very visionary leader to make that call. It's essentially politician suicide tax.

P.S.T. So there, there is an issue. It would require us to reassess how we do things. It would. And that means being a leader. being a leader requires you to be visionary requires you like a parent I mean you're a parent I'm a parent

when your parents couldn't meet your needs and wants it was mostly because they just couldn't afford it and when you tell your child I don't get this for you it is not because you cannot afford it it's because you think you don't need that and that is a harder decision to make. We need visionary leaders to share the information with the public.

This is the situation in front of us and this is the core. When you read all the history books, real leaders are honest with our people. And they say, look, here are the cards we have. I'm not going to pretend. Here are the cards we have. And these are the calls we need to make. Transmounted the Keystone Pipeline. Concelled.

Extremely, extremely disappointing decision. But how many people do you know who have ever seen that presidential permit which approved it? How many people do you know who have seen it, who have read it? Because if you know people who have people who have, have seen it, who have read it, it's there in black and white. This permit can be cancelled at any given time and you got nothing to do about it and we will not pay any compensation. It's written in black and white. So when you make a big decision based on a permit like that and it blows back, we have a duty as a population to be informed that hey this was a bit of a gamble like you know let's

I think people are mature enough to take it I treat my students like that I say yes what these are the facts but that's why I go back to the best leaders aren't in politics I don't think so You don't think so? I don't think so. I think there's still room for good people to go into politics. I think there's still room. There's still room. I think there's still room.

It's a team sport. And if everybody, if the balance of power says, we don't want to make hard decisions. We don't want to be open, transparent with people. Then I'm sorry, you'll be swept up in. that. But you have to use your influence to remind people, I cannot stand for this. This doesn't sound right. Let's treat these people like smart discerning people. I mean, that permit. You go, I can send it to you after here. Look at it and think, oh, m.g. This is the permit. This is the

permit? Look at it. I mean, many people are like, I am as upset as everyone else about the cancellation, but I've also seen the document. So I like throwing a lot of light on a lot of issues. We talk about the economy. Yeah, we're going to catch up without spending. Then what? Then what? You've run out of rope. Then what? So I think when we begin to, are you at all concerned with it isn't just Alberta it's like Canada it's a whole stinking world right now with these bailouts and the amount of money that they just keep thrown at their populations to keep the machine kind of chugging along so to speak is that concerned you at all it like it does concern me but at the heart of it we have all accepted

the royal we that to motivate rich people we got to give them money and to motivate poor people, we've got to make life really hard for them. If not, why do you think it is... Say that again? Say that one more time. To motivate rich people, we just give them more money.

But to motivate poor people, we make life more challenging for them. One of the biggest things that would make a difference in a poor person's life is education and access to education. When education becomes more expensive, It limits people's ability to get up the social ladder. It absolutely does.

It hits a generation, hits the next one, and before you realize, the economy is paying a high price for it. But then it's like, oh, it gives some tax breaks. First, it's going to help some people with mothers with daycare. This tax breaks looks really sexy. Let's do that one. But then, you're going to have a generation, a generation of, people not getting the education they need when and where they need it and that's a price that is

way more expensive than the benefits of the alternative so i think it's important and and speaking as a minority speaking that's not a very good term but speaking as a racialized person you know and all that I know that education, I told you about my parents investing in me, education is the single biggest difference you can make in a people's life. The Alberta advantage is the people. Full stop. It's the people. If we lose the people, that advantage is gone. I think it's high time we told people that.

it is not how low our taxes are it is not how quickly we balance the budget okay you balance the budget then what you balance the budget then what then what then you have a thriving economy overnight heck no you balance the budget and there are no schools

no research facilities where do you think those people are going to come and what happens to their children when they want dedication So I think it's really, really important that our leaders invest time in explaining these issues, in giving us a room to dissect these issues, in us being interested in dissecting these issues, instead of just fighting among ourselves over some pointless stuff. This is now an us versus them. This is, let's assess.

Let's keep assessing. And let's know the implications of the choices that we made. Let us stop branding people. You see somebody, yeah, I kind of know where you start. No, you don't. Give the person a chance. Yeah. If there's one thing that I've learned, even amongst my friend group,

or my extended friend group, is you can think you know what somebody thinks, not a chance. Not even close. It doesn't matter what issue you pick. It doesn't matter if you're talking COVID. Doesn't matter if you're talking education, health care. Got in an argument the other day about how to fix homelessness.

You name it. There is somebody who has a differing, or all five of you sit in a room have differing opinions. That's not a bad thing. No, it's not. It's not a bad thing. That's how you come to build ideas that can work. We should be willing. And that's where, you know, I know I speak to Kenny about.

free speech. We should be willing to listen. We should be willing to listen to understand. Yeah, I agree. But in being willing to listen, you've got to be understanding that sometimes you're really not going to like what comes out of someone's mouth.

That's okay. Right? Like you got to, and that's an uncomfortable, I go back to the white privilege thing, right? I remember getting in this argument around the kitchen table with Mel. Why does the, doesn't bother you so much. Now that's a question. Why does that bother me so much?

Indeed. Indeed. Like, why is that? And when you dig into it at the very bottom, it could be or because somebody thinks if they accept that white privilege is a thing, then suddenly somebody's going to come, take something they have earned, something they have worked hard for, away from them, or they're going to lose something. So I'm going to stand so strong because I'm afraid of what's to come. No, and for me, that isn't what it is. For me, what really bothers me about the two words is the original sin theory, right? Like, I'm, and I'm trying my best for a community, trying to do the best by me, by my family.

And it's like something's been put over my head that I can't, like, I just, like, so what do I do? Right? Like, I acknowledge it, okay. Look at it like male privilege. society has for the longest time advantage men over women so that when women say why can't I be an emperor in a man's game

it's like oh you stay there well why can't you stay there because our default don't you think some of that is just it's not changing as fast maybe as some people would want but I mean I mean, whether people want to go back and look at history or not, hasn't been that long ago, in the grand scheme of things,

since women got to vote and got access to a lot of different things. I've interviewed, on the archive episodes, I've interviewed, I think it was Leona Beamish, I want to say, where when she was growing up, there was three professions, roughly speaking, secretary, nurse, school teacher. I want to say those are the three, don't quote me on that. And I just remember thinking, like, man, that would suck, right? Like, that's all you can.

When it comes to black and white segregation down in the states and like... In Canada as well? Well, and see, here's what I'm learning. I'm a slow learner. But here's what I'm trying to do is I find, I find us Canadians, and I could be wrong on this. So this is an idea you're willing, I will gladly take your thoughts on.

I find we stare down at the United States because we are, brothers or sisters or border mates whatever you want to call and we stare down at them and we go now that isn't that ain't here right we're we're the pure Canadians right and now somebody out there is thinking we are the peer Canadians shot shut up and I'm like actually I would agree that's what I would have thought but the more research I do yeah the more I go geez I didn't know about that and it doesn't make it and here's it doesn't make us all bad it just makes us like you've got to just continue to learn and I look at um Oh, shoot.

North of Maidstone, there was the Mays family, came up to, oh, darn. I'm forgetting the name of the settlement they had. Way, way, way back when. Oh, it's going to come to me after somebody's yelling at the radio right now. Because I've gone there. I've interviewed Ruben Mays, right? And there was a group of black settlers who came up from Oklahoma back in Jim Crow kind of laws. came up started in Canada.

I'm like, oh, that's awesome. Like, we should be really proud of that. And then you hear, and then you start digging in. Well, actually, they faced pretty hard persecution once they got here. Indeed. You're like, oh, well, geez, I don't know. That doesn't make me feel any better. Remember when I said that the story of the hunt.

Well, and that's where I was going, right? And so we always take the side of the Underground Railroad ended in Canada, right? So we're the, come on in. Come on in. There's so much in there. And in saying that, I'm not trying to sit here and go like, this is where I get, this is where I'm challenging the idea is to me it feels like original sin. Like we're all born into it and you're a problem child unless you fix yourself.

And it's like, no, I think you just, you got to understand that let's not focus so much. I'm trying really hard to not focus on what the United States is doing. It's hard not to. They are a superpower in the world. When it comes to entertainment, media, everything, they're tech giants. So I understand why. We got this lovely country, this wonderful province. Heck, we're on the border, these wonderful two provinces.

And if you just go in like a little circle, A, you can find wonderful people like yourself. You're very kind. And you can find stories that are both uplifting and like, oh, man, I didn't know that. Like, I didn't know that. And it really draws you back. and you have to go back and and really evaluate what your what your your thoughts were from before. Indeed. It is it is it is remarkable. One thing I share with I co-chair the Lloydminster Local Immigration Partnership and we work with and support migrants, new migrants, new Canadians

to understand Canadian culture and adapt and so what and so. forth. And it is, as a new migrant, you work to understand the culture. You have a duty to do that. But, you know, as you have a duty to inform yourself. You have a duty to learn. And you are doing a great job of doing that. I, you know, the more you keep doing this, and I'm sure you keep doing it, I hope to see a lot more diverse people show up in this chair. Well, actually, the thought that comes right to my head when you said, you know, as immigrants, you have a duty to learn. Indeed. I've been trying to do the complete opposite.

As people sitting here, I think we have a duty to learn too. It goes both ways. Well, you're coming in. It goes both ways. Yeah. But I don't think right now, and maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is and maybe I'm I don't have a, but there isn't an easy way other than picking up books. And I find a lot of people find books to be work.

And that's no knock on them. Some people have a tougher time reading and evaluating the time. It's not just books. They are, they are a wide swath of events. There are groups like the Lloydminster and Vermilion for equity doing some amazing work. You know, about equality and diversity. It's not just minorities in there. There are a bunch of white people in there who just think,

you know, but let's just come together and build a more inclusive society. Because in so doing, we will get the benefit of everything. Look, you know, when people look at immigrants, I want them to, when people who are not immigrants, look at immigrants, I want them to cast your mind back. How many generations ago it was, when your forefathers stepped on these lands and look at the immigrants and think people who show up new have the same attitude the same resilience the same tenacity the same quest for success

that the originals had and it's an opportunity to look at these people and think what drives you What motivates you? Because there are some deep lessons that could be learned and shared across the board. That's where we're going to leave it because I think that rate there sums up. I think that's a really good idea. I would love to hear more of the stories because it broadens my worldview, which means it broadens my audience's worldview. You can start to understand.

And, you know, we got to, no matter what, you stop the communication. That's a dismal way to live life. That's where problems really start. So I really appreciate you coming in because I know you had no idea what I was going to try and poke and prod you on. But I really appreciate you coming and sitting and being willing to share in what's between your ears and, you know, try and deal with. It's been lovely.

You've been very kind. and I hope, I hope Kenny will be happy with what I did here today. But it's nice and I think, you know, you're doing a great job. Like I said, I would encourage you to keep doing this. You know, reach out to a wider, diverse audience. Hear perspectives that, and expose these perspectives to your audience and say, try this for a change. Try this for a change.

how do you like it? And just see where he goes. But it's an absolute pleasure to be here. I have a few black men you've ever heard. So I take pride in that. My name will go up on some walls somewhere, and that's a cool thing. Well, I look forward to, I think, where my brain goes

is I'm going to get you and Ken across from each other. Oh, don't do that. And then what I'm going to do, oh, the listeners are going to love this. And then I'm going to throw some lobs in there and see what happens. Kenya and I are practically brothers. Like, you can't do that to us. That's the best type. I get the brothers in here and we argue all the time.

You can't do that. Like, Kenny will be listening to the thing and Benny, what happened? No, you can't do that. You can't do that. But it will be a pleasure to, you know, to keep chatting with you. Well, I appreciate you coming in and sitting down. Just thanks again, Ben. Cheers, mate.

Thank you. Hey, folks. Thanks for joining us today. If you just stumbled on the show, please click subscribe. Then, scroll to the bottom, and rate and leave a review. I promise it helps. Remember, every Monday and Wednesday, we will have a new guest sitting down to share their story. The Sean Newman podcast is available for free on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever else you get your podcast fix.

Until next time. Keeners, how's it going? Hope you enjoyed that one. That was, that one made my brain work, which is good. I enjoy conversations that go a little deeper than the surface level. So hope you enjoyed me and Ben going back and forth. And well, wherever you're at today, have a great day. And if you're the champ, feed off the desk, big shooter.

It's Monday. It's time to go to work. All right. We'll see you guys Wednesday.