Shaun Newman Podcast - Ep. #210 - Lawyer Carol Crosson

Episode Date: October 11, 2021

She is a Constitutional Lawyer from Crosson Constitutional Law. We discuss the current state of affairs in Alberta, delivering the letter for the group of 3500 health care workers, lawyers scrambling & disregarding human rights. Let me know what you think Text me 587-217-8500

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Hey, everybody. My name is Steele-Fer. This is Tim McAuliffe of Sportsnet, and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks. Happy Monday. Hope everybody's having a great long weekend with some family, maybe friends, wherever you're at. I hope you're enjoying it, staying safe. enjoying this fall weather that seems to hopefully it'll hold on for,

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You know, I ran into the bottom side of the table. Obviously, the top is this two slabs of wood with the river running through the epoxy in the middle that Windsor did up. But initiation, you seven hockey today. I bumped into the guy. I didn't realize this, Charles. He didn't tell me. Tyler Bear, wherever you're at.

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She's a constitutional lawyer from Crossing Constitutional Law who represents clients on infringements to the charter rights and is also General Counsel and President of the Rights and Freedom's Advocate. I'm talking about Carol Crosson. So buckle up. Here we go. This is Carol Crosson and welcome to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the Sean Newman podcast today.

I'm joined by Carol Crosson. So first off, thanks for hopping on. Let's be here, Sean. Now, I think, I don't think I could have timed this any better. You being a constitutional lawyer, I feel like with everything going on right now, I'm sure you're busy as all can be. But so many employers, et cetera, are putting down things to have their employees vaccinated by X date or you go on unpaid leave, et cetera, et cetera. Now, before we dive into all that, which I think is perfect timing on having you on, maybe you could give the listener, the viewer, a little bit of your backstory, Carol, so they can kind of get a feel for who you are and what your expertise is.

Sure, that's too, Sean. I have been in this area for about 10 years. So I practiced constitutional and human rights law. I went to law school as my third career because I knew the only gift that I had. And my husband knew it very, very well is that I can argue. I'm just plain belligerent, John. So I went to law school. My husband actually paid, can you imagine this, paid money for his wife to argue better.

Yeah. He's a sweet. fool that man is. And so now he never wins an argument. He doesn't. And so I went to law school because I had some concerns about the direction the nation was going. I saw kind of a darkness fall upon the land. Maybe an intolerance is the best word for it. And so I always wanted to practice constitutional law. People said, you know, no one does that. When I went to law school, I felt a little sheepish. But I have practiced in that area because I believe in rights and freedoms. It's in the core of my very being. And so I have been involved in about three dozen cases across the

nation. I practice all the way across Canada. I've got a lot of clients in Ontario, B.C., Alberta, Manitoba. I've done a lot of work in Manitoba. Recently, I've been at three courts of appeal, federal court, about 11 different jurisdictions and levels, not because there's anything fabulous about me, but it's just that's where my clients are and that's where the issues are. I've practiced primarily in charter law on free speech and freedom of religion because I've noticed a tightening on speech and beliefs in the past number of years. And there's been a real fight on in courtrooms behind closed doors on those issues. And now I find myself in the middle of the vaccine mandates. And because I believe in freedom, I'm right in the middle of defending people on their freedom.

I don't care what people decide as far as a medical procedure. But as a lawyer, I'm always going to advocate for freedom. And I believe the mandate isn't a real infringement on freedom. You know, when you say you saw dark days ahead, I don't think you could have predicted this. No, I never would have predicted this, Sean. I never would have. And that's what so many people are shocked at. I talked to probably around by mostly by email, about 100 people a day working, you know, 10, 15 hours,

just trying to give people direction here, there, and everywhere. And I think that's what people are shocked on most is the very basis for this. Yeah. So let's get into it. Tons of people are terrified. You know, like, all you got to do is look in Alberta. I mean, coming up in October, you got doctors, nurses, medical staff with AHS. You got big oil companies in Saskatchewan.

You got similar things. It was just the day or two ago was that yesterday where Trudeau came. out and said federal employees need to be vaccinated. In order to get on a plane train, you got to have the vax, like, I mean, it's a lot. So I want to try and pull it in because a ton of people are, well, decidedly nervous, anxious, all the above. What options do they got? You know, like I feel like most people are going, what rights do I even have at this point? I know. And the legal community, in my opinion, is scrambling to Sean because we lawyers, we pull the law from the common law, which is the decisions the courts have made on issues that have come before the court.

Facts come before the court. The court makes a decision. It goes on to the next person. If they have the same facts, the court has a ruling on that. We lawyers are scrambling because there haven't been any. rulings on this substantively. There have been rulings on COVID issues, but nothing like this. So we're also asking ourselves, what's the law on this because the courts have never ruled on it? We do have some existing law that applies, and that would be primarily in way of human rights

legislation. So in an employment setting or really in any governmental or non-governmental setting, people have human rights. And on this issue, they have the right to be protected on the grounds of disability or, you know, medical issues or religious beliefs. And those are the two relevant things that are protected grounds in this area. But I am finding, Sean, surprisingly, that a lot of entities are discarding those rights as well. But how do you just disregard it? Like, I don't, I don't understand that. I mean, maybe I'm just a simpleton. I'm, I'm, I'm, I just assume, you know, in the stone as our trucker and rights of freedom, you can't, right? Like, that's what the foundational document is. How can you just disregard it? Nope, we're not going to look at that.

That doesn't, that makes zero sense. It's, it's shocking. Individuals are shocked, lawyers are shocked. I have institutions that are writing letters to many of the people I'm working with saying, no, we've decided not to accept requests for religious exemptions. Excuse? In what world has that ever happened? On the issue of medical exemptions, human rights legislation gives a wide birth for medical for disability, even including things like stress and anxiety. That's a disability. And human rights legislation has respected that. But now the disability, is confined to whatever the medical people are saying it is. And so in Alberta, disability is down to, from what I understand, two things. And they both occur only if you've already

had a dose of the vaccine. One of them is anaphylactic reactions. The other is myocarditis. You can't get a medical exemption from what I understand right now unless you've had a first dose and you've experience those things on myocarditis, I'm told that you're only given a delay to the second dose. So myocarditis isn't even a reason not to get the vaccine. It's simply a reason to delay the vaccine. So human rights legislation says this, but it's being interpreted in that way on medical. And then as I say, religious beliefs, a lot of institutions and entities are right now saying, oh, we won't even accept that request. It's acting, in my opinion, right outside the law.

You know, I had James Kitchen, another constitutional lawyer on, geez, probably 10, 12 episodes ago. And he said something along the lines is, if you want your freedoms, you got to take them back. And geez, what I'm hearing right now is something eerily similar to what I heard before. but it feels like shut up, take the Vax and just deal with it and don't worry about what the government's saying. Like I just assumed, you know, wow, I think everybody just keeps thinking like, geez, there's a whole whackload of, I'm going to use healthcare workers or even the federal workers like that are just standing there that are opposing it. You just assume that that's going to win out and it's going to change things and it's going to give you some precedent to kind of be like, this is happening.

You can't do this. This is about. but that isn't what's happening. Right. Maybe if I can give an example, in the free speech world, years ago, people would say, Carol, how can you go to court on that? Isn't the right to free speech really broad? And I would say, actually, it's being challenged right now.

And I agree with what James Kitchens said that you have to fight for your rights. So I go to court and entities government was constantly telling people and increasingly now, if you make people feel, quote, unsafe, you don't have a right to free speech. Well, that's never being what the law has said, never. So I've gone to court to say, no, the law actually says this and with mixed results. Some of the court has wanted to take the issue on to widen restrictions on free speech. Some of the court has said, no, that's what the law has always been. That's what we're going to keep it as.

But on free speech, we've had to fight to keep that. right and people people are shocked by that they really are but i've seen it with free speech and now i'm seeing it on this if you don't fight for your rights you lose them so that's what we're having to do right now yeah that's i don't know that's it just seems a bit wild to me uh that um you know a lot of people are saying you know it wasn't that long ago the mental health movement was on you know, like people's mental well-being was the utmost importance. Geez, was that like, I don't know, a year ago? A year and a half ago, Carol, I can't remember this couple of years is just distorted time so

bad. And now nobody's worried about that, one bit. That is the bottom of the totem pole right now. And, you know, once upon a time it was, it's my body, you know, you can't let me do anything with my body's my body. That seems like it's kind of out the window right now too. I was just saying I was listening to Scott Moe and he said, you know, we're making life difficult. I'm like to say it, to have your public leaders stating that, but not even more.

That's one thing. But then to have the support of your entire population or most of it to make life difficult. Yeah. Stick it to those guys or those gals for that matter is very strange to watch. It's very strange. I've never seen this. I've never seen it. I mean, how many authorities did we hear over the summer that said,

including Trudeau, many government leaders that said, oh, we would never go to mandating the population. That would be, you know, breaching their choice, their privacy. We could never do that. And then reversal within, what, two, four weeks? We saw a complete reversal. To me, it questions some real fundamental principles, Like I'm meeting so many people of principle lately that they don't have this idea that their views change with the passing wind.

Their views are based on principle, you know? And my question is, how far are authorities willing to go in order to get what they think should happen? Isn't that the question, Sean? Like if you really think that the pandemic now is a disease of the unvaccinated, and by the way, I have many, many clients who would take exception to that. But even if you were to accept that, how far will you go in any civilized society to achieve your purpose? Will you just run over people's freedoms? Would you decide they shouldn't have essential services? Like, how far will you go to achieve your ends?

And it used to be, well, we will achieve our ends without abridging the rights of our citizens. now not so much yeah it's i agree it was first they called the carrot now they call it the stick and i always go well how far are you going to wind up with said stick right like you're going to hit everybody with the stick okay but how hard first it was a love tap then it just keeps getting bigger and bigger and i mean you think about it um if you don't have your your your current shots I mean, and some people are fine with it. Lots of people are fine with. Lots of people don't care either way. Lots of people aren't even paying attention. But like restaurants, gyms, bars, sporting events, etc, et cetera, et cetera. It just goes on and on and on and on. I've heard some weird stories from in schools. I feel for the school age kids that have been, you know, I don't want to get into statistics and everything, but on the grand scale of COVID are pretty minimal on the on the grand scale of it. But what they're being. put into, so to speak, and the conversations they're being forced to had amongst their peers is pretty wild, all the way down to 12-year-olds. And in some places, 11-year-olds, because as you can tell by the jerseys behind me, being a hockey guy,

you know, you have 11-year-olds playing with 12-year-olds. So that's actually not 12-and-up. It's actually 11-and-up now in some places. So you're having these conversations happen that should, we should be protecting the youth and children from. Like we should never allow them to have these conversations, in my opinion. Yeah. I'm working with hundreds of university students on Alberta campuses. First, it started with Ontario students that were phoning me, Manitoba students, because it started a little earlier back then. And now I'm working with hundreds of Alberta students.

And the stigmatization that they're experiencing, Sean, is just terrible. One of them has shared with me quite a bit lately about the security on the campus. another that they have to stand up in lineups, another that there's gold bands. Get this, gold bracelets or bands on one campus for those who are vaccinated. And if you're not vaccinated, you don't get the gold bans. I mean, have we revised history to the point where we don't understand the significance of that? They're experiencing this terrible stigmatization. And their world, in their view, is falling apart.

They're losing their education. they don't know about their future and they've lost a lot of their friends. But I will tell you, Sean, the people that I am meeting every day, they have backbone. And our backbone is growing as time goes by. These university students that I work with, gosh, I am so impressed with them. We have never faced this kind of a crisis, in my view, in Canada. You know, we've never had a war on our soil. We've never had a broad encroachment on our freedom.

and the amount of people that are saying no is incredible and impressive. And I'm not overstating to say that I'm meeting heroes, lots of them every day. Yeah, that's been one of the, I don't know, if I could reverse time and go back to when I first started this thing back in 2019, I believe. if I would have known how beneficial, like good for my mental psyche this podcast would become, with just meeting different people such as yourself, right? We get to explore these things. Certainly get some harassment, probably well overdue for some of the conversations I have. But for my well-being, to have conversations with people from different parts of the country,

even the globe, to hear how their brain works, to get some things off their chest or my chest or both, and just explore some issues. has been extremely beneficial. And I can't overstate exactly what you're saying. It's like, get to meet some cool people that just, they got some strong beliefs, right? And if there's one thing I've noticed is in order to be doing what you do, and especially how you did it, you know,

I was saying before we started a bit about your story, I'm like, there's a woman who believes in what she's doing. Like, that's pretty cool. Well, I wish Moore shared your view on having dialogue, Sean, because as a free speech lawyer, I believe that's a cornerstone of a democracy. And so many of the clients that I'm representing, all they want at this point is to enter into dialogue with the authorities that they're working with. The students, they're getting responses to their religious exemption requests.

No, we're not awarding it. Did you want to explain? Like, why? I'm representing a group of physicians here in Alberta. and they've been trying to get into a dialogue with Alberta Health Services. They've been trying to get into a dialogue with the Minister of Health. It's not really working. There's such a polarization of views right now.

If we can sit down together at a table and talk about these things, we can make headway. But when people are labeling anyone who simply has questions about this as sharing misinformation, that doesn't get us where we need to go. which is solving the real problems at the heart of this. All I got to do is look at our head officials of Alberta, the premiers of Alberta, Saskatchewan and our great fearless leader Trudeau on the federal part.

Misinformation, conspiracy theories, rattle it all off. Those three in particular, because I got to follow all three of them, I mean, where I sit, is like that's exactly what's going on. I mean, I just literally talked to Dr. Eric Payne from Calgary like a week ago. And that's like one of the most calm, collected, sure, even it says, is there something wrong with my argument? Probably. There's probably a couple things. But come tell me.

Like, I'm good with it. But that gets labeled as misinformation or a quack or all these crazy things. You're like, man, we need to, you know, as I was saying this early on, Carol. And I wonder if you'd agree with me that one of the things as a society we've done poorly over for sure since COVID started is we took out dialogue. So we didn't have enough of these conversations, or at least not to my ears. And we didn't debate things enough. And by not debating and hearing and everybody getting to witness and hear that that wanted to, you didn't get to hear anything. So it was one side.

And when you just get one side, man, that's where conspiracy starts. That's where everybody starts to go digging for information because they want it. They want to hear both sides. And by just trying to spoon feed them, it backfired royally. And now you got this group of people. that come hell or high water aren't doing anything. And Mo and Kenny specifically, the more they pressure,

the more firm the group becomes. It's wild. It is wild to watch. It's true. They won't achieve their ends. You know, one of the common things that said about squelching free speech is that those who squelch free speech

believe that they're infallible because they have nothing to learn. It's an expression of infallibility if you won't answer. into dialogue and nobody's perfect. Nobody has the answers in a pandemic. I especially am noticing this with the physicians group that I'm representing and the Alberta healthcare workers that Santan, I delivered a letter on behalf of them, an open letter from healthcare professionals united, a group of Alberta healthcare professionals that panned a letter signed it 3500.

signatures to go to Alberta Health Service. And that letter wasn't a letter for pro or con vaccine. That was a letter about choice. That was a letter saying we disagree with a vaccine mandate. We are vaccinated and unvaccinated healthcare professionals. We disagree with a mandate. And these are the reasons why we're pro choice encouraging a dialogue asking for a response from Dr. Verna Yu. They have not received a response. There has been no dialogue, no response from Dr. Verna Yu,

CEO of Alberta Health Services. And then Minister Copping came out in the media in response to that letter, a few times calling it misinformation, various things, at some points refuting studies with news articles,

but never engaging with this group. And so the group recently sent in another letter to Minister Copping talking about one of the points in his response to ask for dialogue. You know, and these are medical professionals. They know what's happening in the system. They're not, quote, anti-vaxxers.

They're both vaccinated and unvaccinated. They just believe in choice and they'd like to have a dialogue. What's the harm? What's the harm, Sean? What is the harm? I don't know if you can even talk to that. What is the harm in having dialogue and opening up dialogue? What would be the harm in that?

Well, I guess it's, I guess the harm could be if those authorities are not willing to be transparent and discuss both sides of the issues because they have an agenda. I don't know. Is that what's going on? What could what could the other harm be in both people sitting at the table and talking about this transparently. If you have nothing to hide, if there's no problem, if you're willing to entertain ideas, there's no harm to sitting down at the table. So I don't know why, Sean, I don't know why there hasn't been dialogue, but it's very concerning because I will tell you,

these 3,500 healthcare professionals, they care for people. They care for patients all the way through COVID, they were at the front line caring for patients. And it's precisely that that has made them at some risk in putting their names on a, on a letter. They're standing up. Yes, because they care about patients and they care about choice. It is, man, this is such a strange time because I think, you know, like you look to Alberta and what's happening here with the letter from the 3,500. But I mean, you just look to the south, you know, you go to the United States. Similar things are happening in tons of the states, right? I think of New York State or I think of the doctor in California that's getting let go

and he's in a position similar to like Eric Payne at the Children's Hospital, right? Like these aren't just like to Alberta. I like to bring it to Alberta because that brings, oh, that's happening here. Like people should hear that, should know that that 3,500 people. are like, this isn't right. And what I can't figure out is why there's no dialogue around it. Like, why wouldn't you sit down with the best and brightest and try and figure your way out of this? Like, I keep going around, we're in a state of emergency.

Why would you want to force the place that's in the biggest part that's getting hit on the hardest, the healthcare system, to have 3,500 people possibly walk off? That ain't going to help us. that that's going to do the opposite of what we want. So why on earth would we do that? So is it about power? Do you think it's about power? I don't know.

I'm just, hey, I keep saying this. I'm just a small town, toothless hockey player who's just bringing some people on to hear their thoughts to try and gain some, some valuable knowledge, some perspective to see like,

what am I missing? Because if I'm missing something, hell, I'll be the first to bring them on and hear it and go, okay, but what about the 3,500 doctors and physicians and health care workers that are about to walk up? How does that make any sense to what's going on? It doesn't. I know. And I'm just a mere lawyer. I'm not a politician. I'm not a philosopher. I can hit it from the legal angle only, but from the legal angle, it does make me worry about the collective as

opposed to the individual. And I think across the world in the past maybe decade, there's been a real move on for the collective, you know, a more socialistic way of seeing things. And when you look at the collective, it's we must do what we need to do for the sake of the whole. And government becomes more powerful. And we have, I think, let that happen in many countries. I think Australia is a great example of that, where I've seen commentators from Australia talk about how they have let government power expand and expand because I heard one commentator say because they're very efficient. at making government work down there. But when we give that away,

and I'm speaking from an individual freedoms perspective, we then sacrifice our freedoms for the whole. And of course, that's what everybody's being told right now. If you even care about people, you should be vaccinated. And when that was a choice, that was a more palatable argument. But now it's you don't have a choice. You must serve the whole. And that is when government steps over the last.

line. They step over the line on section seven of the charter that says that every individual in Canada has a right to life, liberty, and security. And especially in regard to medical choices, that's how the court has interpreted that. Let's do this. I want to play a hypothetical with you so we can get some of your law prowess. Oh, and of course, for some reason, I have to it says it's going to kick me out of this meeting probably because of the the iPhone coming on. So if I, in nine minutes when we get kicked out, if we are still going, can I just send you a new Zoom link? Of course. Okay. So let's play a hypothetical here because I'd love to get some of your expertise. You are an employee working for employer A. I'm not even going

to use a company name because it doesn't matter because it's happening across the board on so many different spots now. As an employee, what rights do you have? Do you, if they say we want you vaccinated by October 30th, November 1st, but you don't want to get vaccinated. What can you do? Well, I can speak to only half of your question because I'm not an employment lawyer. So I can't speak to union issues and dismissal and termination. I'm sorry, I'm only half baked on this.

But I can speak to human rights legislation. So you do have the right to object on. medical or on religious grounds. And a lot of people are doing that and they're fighting and fighting on that. The problem is, is that a lot of entities, including employers, are not respecting that. I mean, I'm sure you heard Trudeau yesterday that said there'll be very few exceptions to this, which in my view is just discarding human rights altogether. So that's the rights that you have from a human rights perspective. I know a lot of individuals are considering here in Alberta and have gone to the Alberta Human Rights Commission, when their rights have been dismissed out of hand, then that

commission will have to deal with that. If they dismiss it and the client still thinks they have a claim, they can take that for judicial review at court. And so that's what some people, I hope, will be doing. Hmm. The longer you can hold off, though, the better you are. Right? Because I should, I should clarify that point. I just got told today that a couple of workers, there was a mandate come out by an employer, and as soon as they heard it, they just quit and walked off, said screw it and walked off. I would think the better play, the better move would to be still employed. Would it not? I don't know. I mean, to each their own. How everybody wants to handle this. but I would assume an employee is stronger than they think, I guess, is what I'm getting at,

that I'm sure a ton of employers just want this to go away. Like just let it go away so we can move on. But for a lot of people, this is a pretty big issue. And so if you walk away, I feel like you're letting them get off easy. Maybe I'm wrong on that. No, I think that's a good strategy. I love what you just said, by the way, on a lot of, of people are stronger than they think. That has been playing in my head a lot. I've been,

I've been sharing that with a lot of people because I think we as Canadians are right now stronger than we think. But I think you're talking strategically more and as far as if you all stand together. And as time goes by, I am, when I'm working with groups, a strategy for them that seems to be more workable increasingly is to all get together and to stand in that particular setting. At the beginning, Sean, it was harder for people to do so because they thought maybe this will just go away. They can't possibly mean this. Like, so I'm not going to out myself by putting myself on a petition or doing something like that because it was more risk. But now the risk is clear. These entities are entrenched. And so people are, are when it's coming down to them,

like with school boards, et cetera, right now, it's coming down the pike for the first time. People are more off the hop standing together to form coalitions to stand against their particular entity. And strategically, yes, I think that's more powerful. I think that's why the open letter is helpful. I, by the way, know that there are open letters going on all over this country where people are starting to amass and make petitions and stand up and say, you want to lose all of us? Let's see about that. Because I don't think the employer. and the government thought that this many people would take exception. But we're in Canada.

We value our freedoms. They will be swept under the rug that easily. I just, you know, I can't remember where I heard it, but it's like democracy hasn't been around that long. What we have here is pretty special. And we just,

I don't know. You can play out this scenario where it's like, is in a year's time, Are we back to normal and is how does life just go on? Or in a year's time, are we into the 12th wave and, you know, 92% are vaccinated and they've come out, you know, I got three kids, five and under. So I know where this is going. Like I can already hear the cat calls for when the young ones get vaccinated. And that scares the living part in the French shit out of me because I'm like, why would we do that?

Why on earth would we do that? but it's coming. And so for me, I'm looking ahead and going, this is going to get stranger, not fixed sooner. But a lot of people are like, if you just get vaccine, we go back to life and life just carries on. Yeah. But I don't see that coming. Sean, think of in your own household, like you've got three small children. Think of in your own household, you want something. You think for the greater good of the family that this or that should be done. How far are you willing to go? to get what you want. The five-year-old, four-year-old and the two-year-old, I can go pretty far.

I mean, I mean, they just. But think about it. People, I have had people crying in my Zoom meetings. People who are faced with severe medical problems, I will tell you that don't fit within these narrow exceptions. People that have been told by their specialists, get this, that the vaccine will be life-threatening to them, but their primary care physician won't write off on an exemption because it doesn't fit within those two narrow frameworks. If you can believe that. And people who are saying,

I can't provide for my family, yet my life will be threatened. What do I do? Do we do that in our own household? Do we say to our kids, well, if you don't do this, you're not going to eat for days? Or you'll be in a life-threatening situation unless you agree with my overall purpose. to what extent will authorities go to get what they think is the right path? Never mind, I mean, we could go on forever about so many people out there in the studies, etc, that show that this is questionable as to whether this is the right path. But even if it were, will we go to that extent to force people to take a medical treatment to achieve our aim? That's not a civilized society, Sean.

It's just not. I should clarify my laughter on the background on 5, 4, and 2. I wouldn't go that far at all. I was just chuckling because a 5, 4 and 2 year old, you can threaten pretty easy things and get what you need. But, you know, at the same token, just rewining back to what you said about, you know, the people you've been talking about, I'm a simple podcaster. I've heard some wild stories about people that have been told once again by their physician.

do not get this and they can't get a medical exemption. I know people who have had adverse reactions that don't want to get the second shot, they can't get a medical exemption because it doesn't fit into your two. I know a guy who has pre-existing or sorry, hereditary heart conditions in his family. Can't get a medical exemption for that. He's terrified of. And I'm like, this is like to me, we're pulling apart the fabric of society right now instead of bringing, Like, you know, is this a tough period to be in Canada?

Like generally, with everything going on, yes. But by getting this one part of society to take all the blame and putting all the hate towards them is an interesting tactic, Carol. Like, interesting, you know, you mentioned earlier on about forgetting about history. Gee, you don't got to go too far back to find some interesting, I don't know, gold stars where they did that for a country. I hadn't heard about the gold bands like that in itself, whoever thought of that.

Obviously, it ended up for to happen at a college setting or a university setting is wild. Like, that's what our education system should be teaching, is what not to do, which only happened, uh, you know,

several decades ago. Yeah. I'm thinking of a story that my daughter told me that the other day from the hiding place, uh, written by Corey Tan Boom, where she watched her, father go out on the street one day and and put his arm around a Jewish man while the SS was in

that Jewish man's shop tearing it apart. And even just the act of putting his arm around that Jewish man was a courageous thing to do because the Nazis could at any point have turned back and he would have been in trouble. And of course, of course her father eventually died in a concentration camp. But do people as as the broad society, do they agree that this could be right not to stand for the freedom for someone else. Would, would you put your arm around someone who's being victimized by this? That's what I think most people feel kind of stunned by, is that the majority are agreeing. You know, it's funny. Social media makes it seem that nobody would do that. I think where I sit, tons of people could care less, like honestly

stand behind people wanting their freedoms and the rights to choose. and everything else. It's just, we all know when, when our leaders aren't saying that, that's a different story. When the people who are leading your country, leading your province are saying what they're saying, which is, I don't know, pretty wild for me to see. It's just, you know, everything trickles down. It doesn't trickle up. I mean, maybe it can. Maybe that's the power of the people, right? Like they say people shouldn't be afraid of their governments. Governments should be afraid of their people. It's true, but it takes something like this for really start to push, doesn't it? It does. You know, there's someone in my client group that is from South Africa and they grew up

with a past system where they tell me there were four classes of individuals and you were treated differently. You had different privileges based on that. And he said, I will fight against anything that looks like that. And that's what's happened is if you're if you're unvaccinated, you fall into this almost deplorables group and you don't have the right to have certain services simply because you've made a medical choice. But I say to the population at large, what about tomorrow? What about the choice that you want to make tomorrow? And now the government's telling you you can't make that choice or you must make this choice.

Because freedom is for everyone. It might be on this issue today, but what will it be tomorrow? And when government gets the bit in their mouth and we allow that, it affects people tomorrow. There's that famous quote, Sean, you know, from Pastor Neemoler in Second World War, where he said they came for the trade unionists and I was not one of them, so I did not speak. And then they came for the socialists and I was not one of them. And so I did not speak. And then they came for the Jews and I was not one of them.

So I did not speak. but then when they came for me, there was no one to speak for me. And that's what freedom is all about, is freedom is for everyone. It doesn't matter if it's this issue today. It's what will happen tomorrow. I mean, what will happen tomorrow? You want a glimpse into the future in my eyes? Because what you're talking about in South Africa,

well, I've had a couple of different South African doctors on here was apartheid, right? I think lots of people understand what happened there. I've actually interviewed some older community pillars of the area and got to hear their life story. And a few of them have come from growing up in apartheid, which is strange to hear. But, you know, when you say, when you talk about it's for everyone, I think we're seeing it happen in Israel right now. And I know a lot of people, lots of people talk about Israel. It's a distant land from us. But so you have your two vaccinations, Carol, and you get the pass.

You got the barcode. Now you can go wherever you want. What happens in six months when you need your third booster? Do you become unvaccinated? And does your past no longer work? To me, to me, I don't even think people can argue that, but it's already happening elsewhere. and the talk of the third booster shot, and I'm not, I got to be very clear, I'm not against third booster shot. I'm just saying, look at where we're going in another, what is it

going to be? Three, six months, you're going to be considered unvaccinated if you don't have your third shot to protect you. And then what happens six months after that? Maybe this all goes away. Maybe it does. But right now it just feels like it just is going to keep going. And we're going to keep pulling back on, you know, once again, I just assumed lawyers would be able to fight this. And within six months, you know, there's some big wins and employers just know they can't do what they're doing. Instead, it's a complete opposite. And you can feel the, the vice, so to speak, just getting turned a little tighter every little so often. It just keeps squeezing, keep squeezing. And it's wild to see and to have so many people just go along with it, honestly.

Yeah. I mean, I do know there are lawyers fighting. I'm one of them. I'll be going to court with some claims because I'm here to advocate for individuals. There's other lawyers out there that I'm so proud to stand in company with. A lot of people standing across this country that are lawyers and activists that are working. We're told sometimes or oftentimes that it's hopeless that, you know, some lawyers will even tell me it's hopeless. And I'll say nothing's hopeless. I'll stand for rights any day of the week. I'll stand for people. I don't care about reputation. That's not what I'm in this for. I'm in this to stand up for people. And so if you're an advocate, if that's what you've been called to do,

then it doesn't matter how dark or how light it looks. You're going to stand for people. So we will be fighting. And we might lose some. We might win some, but ultimately I'll advocate. So I don't think it's hopeless. Will it turn?

I think if enough people stand in, any country hard enough and long enough, things turn. And I think they have to turn. But I am very disappointed. What you have talked about, I'm very disappointed with the public leaders pitting the society, one against the other. The rhetoric that has come out from some of the premiers and from our federal government has been really distressing. You're not here to pit the public against each other. What do you think that will accomplish? It will accomplish chaos, havoc, hostility and harassment. What I am proud of, Sean, is seeing so many people who have been vaccinated and they made that medical choice. I'm not pro or con on the medical choice. I'm

pro on freedom. And I love the people who have been vaccinated who are saying, but I cannot agree with a mandate. I made a medical choice, but I cannot support a mandate. Of course, that's what the health care workers in Alberta have stood for. Not pro or con. about a vaccine, but against a mandate, because the very core of the medical profession is informed consent. Everything rests on that. They will not breach that or should not. So they will not agree with a government and employers foisting a medical choice on people. That's coercion. And it flies in the face of everything they stand for. I think that's one thing people need to understand it. Maybe they do. But when you say it's the core of being a medical professional,

it is the core. So if you lose that, right, it disappears. That's like losing part of your soul. Like that is just, it's just poof gone. You can't get that back. You just, you can't get that back. That's what they stand on. That is a core principle. And core principles for different industries or different people are very, but for that profession, for that many people, not only to be standing up in Alberta. But I know in Ontario, there's a huge conglomerate there. I've certainly read about New York State and across the board, across the planet, different spots where they're doing it. It's because if you let that slide past there, we've lost who we think we are, essentially, right? Like when you can push that hard to push everybody that way, we've lost a piece

of ourselves. We've lost what's beautiful about freedom and democracy and everything else. Yeah. And you you know what I hear from the medical professionals too. So I'm not a medical professional, but this is just what I'm told, is they're distressed because of what they're seeing on the ground? And so I'm sure you've heard the stories too. You hear from nurses, doctors, all sorts of professionals about what's really going on in the hospitals. A lot of them, I'm told, are being hit with non-disclosures right now when they go in for shifts because they are not allowed to talk about it. The state of intensive care in Alberta, the Bay, ads, other jurisdictions.

What I hear is there's a concern about the real narrative and the public narrative that's being used. Nobody likes it when they feel there's not transparency and truth. And that's come into question right now. So when we believe the public narrative and believe you, me, everybody I talk to the 100 a day, they're reading the studies. They're actually going into the studies to figure out what's going on in other jurisdictions. and what is actually happening.

They're worried because they're saying the vaccines aren't working like we thought they would. They're not giving us the long-term protection that we thought they would. They're not working against the variance like we thought they would. A lot of people are getting COVID, and it's pretty accepted from the studies

that people who are vaccinated and unvaccinated are getting COVID and passing on. So that's what I'm told from medical professionals. And so the concern is the justifiable, for the mandate falls on its face when you start looking, looking deep into the, in through the window and you see what's really going on. I think that's distressing, uh, medical professionals as well. Give me your prediction then, if you can for we, we're walking into, uh, you know,

I'm just game with your own fans. So we're going into the long winter. You know, we're, we're, we're heading into snowfall here sooner and, up. It was cold last night. But what do you think comes through the winter here? Can you, I mean, I know you can't talk about anything specific, but what concerns you over the next, you know, five months, six months? People have asked me that question about freedom for years. And they've asked it about freedom of religion. They've asked me it about freedom of expression in Canada. and now people are asking me about life, liberty, and security. And so my prediction rests only on this, Sean.

If the people from their hearts will stand for freedom, we'll see a change. If we cannot mass enough people to stand for freedom, we will lose our freedom. What will happen? It depends upon that. And I'm seeing, like you said earlier, we're stronger than we think. There are so many people who are standing right now. They're well-versed enough in freedom that they say, no, I will not. That I'm hopeful that enough of us Canadians will stand and it will turn government on its tail.

It depends upon that. Us keeping free speech, it depends upon that. Us keeping freedom of religion, it depends upon that. us keeping freedom of autonomy to make choices it depends upon that i don't know will are we strong enough to stand to push back on government we must people i've seen enough people that i'm hopeful because that's what it will rest upon now we we we have to like i don't see i mean what you're talking about is what makes us a great country does it i mean for the love of everything holy here like what you just said should get everybody up out of their chair should be like all right what do we need to do

let's go do it and i feel like a lot of people are willing to do things they just don't know where to put their energy carol right is a class action lawsuit the best way to go about it i have no idea is hiring every employee getting a lawyer to push back against their employer the best thing to do i have no idea that's why i'm digging because i go like there has to be ways to help people everybody is like searching give me how I get out of this and nobody seems to know. And that is the tough thing, right? If you said, if we march on Parliament Hill tomorrow 2 o'clock, there are people will be driving all through the night to get there to show support to that

if they knew that would work. But right now, I don't know if we know the way that this ends. You know, Sean, and I don't think I can give you a definitive answer, but I can speak to it from this perspective. I like the story of David and Goliath. Maybe it's an old archaic simple. It doesn't matter. It's a great.

But it's a great story. And when I came to law, I picked up my sling. The only thing I knew was belligerence and argumentativeness. And that was my sling and I knew I could use it. That was my way of contributing. Everybody has a way. Someone asked me this question just this morning. And she said, I'm not this.

I can't do this. I can't do that. And I said, but what can you do? Because what they can do is, not what I can do. Lawyers are no different or no better than anyone else. We have our little, our role we fill, but we can't save the nation. I'm going to be fighting. I'm fighting 10, 15 hours a day on this and I will fight with every inch of my might. But there are other people fighting in other arenas and they need to do what they can do. So some people are protesting. I have

had hundreds of clients who are protesters. I strongly support protests, not riots and violence, but protest. Peaceful protest. Some people are lobbying their MLAs, their MPs, they're standing outside of their offices, they're writing letters, they're pressuring them. I heard about somebody this morning that wrote a number of letters on one day to a law firm. People are lobbying however they can. And when they phone me every once in a while, somebody phones me and says, you're not doing enough. And I say, because I can't do it all, I'm no different than you. I've got my role. What can you do? I say to them, what can you do? Because you can do something I can't do. There are people on social media who are causing a huge ruckus right now. Good for them. There are people that are making what we would call parallel systems. So businesses that will work. All right, then we'll work with people that are unvaccinated. We'll hire people that are unvaccinated. We'll get this thing going because we are going to get on our feet and we're going to fight. So whatever it is, I can't provide.

the whole solution because I'm just one person like you say how did you describe yourself as just a poor I'm just a poor lawyer but I will do my part to with as passionately as I can to defend people but the other people they can do what I cannot do and I'm so grateful for them so pick up your sling figure out what it is you can do to make a racket and make that racket because this is the fight of our lives we have never been in a fight like this Sean never but are we strong enough yeah Canadians are strong enough I'm proud to be Canadian and this is the time we say okay enough is enough no I was going to ask you how can you convince somebody who doesn't realize you know like that is just kind of wrapped up in themselves and don't know how to to stand up so to speak but I think

that does it quite well you know a couple things come to mind you know for majority of my life for majority of my life, and certainly before I had kids, I did not love being around Americans, which is funny because I married an American. But, you know, I went to school in the United States, and they're just more disagreeable, I find, right? I had to fight for their rights, their freedom, everything. And I used to almost detest it because it was just like, it was uncomfortable be around. It's okay. Just let, like, not everybody's out to get you. And now, I think everybody needs to channel their inner American, right? Like, get a little disagreeable.

It's, yeah, it's uncomfortable. Actually, I had a buddy tell me there's people at work that are just, you know, they brought in the rapid test. And it's actually not that bad, right? We can just a rapid test, but there's still people that are pissed off about it. I said, let them be pissed off. You need those people because if they aren't there, pretty soon they try and repeal what you got, and then you got to be pissed off.

He's like, huh, I hadn't thought about it that way. And I'm like, honestly, I've never been so pro-pissed. off people right now because I don't want to be the pissed off guy. I just, I keep saying this, Carol, I was interviewing the Don Cherry's, the Rahm McLean. That's what I wanted to do. I just wanted to be, you know, just let me go along. I'm having a little bit of fun. I'm, you know, having some cool stories out there. And in the last two months, like, it's just like, it won't end. And, and here we go into this long winter, the dark winter of where, like, what's coming? I don't know, but something's coming. And if we don't start talking,

and pushing and keep pushing, we're going to find ourselves right back here next year. And maybe the year after that. You know, I like to describe it like an old Western. I don't know if you've watched a lot of old Westerns, but we have. And, you know, there's a big bar fight, Sean. And there's chairs flying, there's glasses breaking. People are punching each other. But there's one big old cowboy in the corner.

And he's watching sort of through slips in his eyes. He's seeing the whole thing. and he's not moved. In some ways, I would describe our American friends as they're scrapping in the bar. Any little thing, they're hitting themselves, each other over the head with the chairs, the glasses are flying,

the guys going out through the saloon doors. But the big old guy in the corner, somebody finally hits him by mistake. And it's a good hit. And he gets up and now he's awake. And he is not going to take any crap. excuse me, he is just not. I like to think that maybe

that's us as Canadians. Because for years I've been told, we don't do anything when our freedoms are taken. You know, the Americans fight and we don't. There's no hope for us. And I've wondered, really, because we're a great bunch of people. Is there no hope for us? But now

I'm seeing all those good old boys in the corner getting up and saying, hey, the bar fights, I'm in now. I'm in now and I'm in a stand and I'm going to stand strong and free and I'm not taking any more of this. That's what I say is happening in Canada. That's what I hope will continue to happen in Canada so that we'll have all sorts of

people who have said, I've overlooked some of the what I think are smaller scuffles. But this is a big scuffle. So I'm in. Yeah. Well, I just, where I come from, we come from a, everybody around me comes from a lineage of people who went across the big old ocean and came over. here and learned how to farm and survive and everything else, you come from a tough stock, a tough breed. Like, they know how to survive. And if there's going to be people that know how to

survive, it's people from these two great provinces because, man, they're hard workers. They get their hands dirty. They know how to pick up or pull up their sleeves and go to work. And maybe you're right. I hope you're right. I hope that's what's happening. I was, I constantly bring on lawyers and doctors and everything to get their advice on things. And I find, why don't we go into more philosophical topics, you know? I mean, is there anything for people using your expertise that they should know wherever walk of life they are when it comes to vaccine passports, when it comes to employers, employment, etc., that you want them to know that maybe can pull them even,

it can even pull them towards you, Carol, for enlisting you to help them? Is there something out there that you want to get across to the, audience that they should know. I've been asked repeatedly, Sean, I do a lot of Zooms with people. I've been asked repeatedly, how can government and authorities do this when it seems illegal? And I've said, I think it is illegal. And they've said, but you can't do something that's illegal. And so here I think is something that can be kind of clarified. Government and authorities do things that are illegal all the time. That's why I have a legal practice. It's because they say, I'm going to step, I'm going to put my big toe up over this line and see if anybody does something.

But it's the fighting back that makes the difference. So don't be mistaken. There's a lot of, you know, religious people right now that are saying, well, we have to obey the law. This is the law. No, the law, when a law is unjust, Martin Luther King said, an unjust law is no law at all. And these are unjust laws. There are no law at all. And that's what constitutional lawyers deal with all the time. Is government saying, I'm going to come out with this policy and we say, you know what, we're going to go to court and fight that because that's a violation of the Constitution.

We don't say, well, if you say so, it must be. It must be. So that's what we're fighting right now is authorities, in my view, they're stepping over that line. It is not law. It is not just. So we have to fight and take that back. But don't be fooled. You're not being a nice person by adhering to unjust law.

You have to fight it and you have to fight to correct that. And that's what we have to do. No matter how we're going to do it, whether it's activism, whether it's protest, lobbying. Legal means I think every hand needs to be at the wheel. No one thing is the solution. we all have to put our, put our backs into this and, and push back on what these are because they're unjust. They're not law at all. I think that's a good way to slowly slide into my final segment because I, I've enjoyed this.

Once again, I keep getting these, these texts and everything else. You know, when it's a nice little story of someone's life, so to speak, you can pull it little nuggets like, ooh, that was, that was really good. But it doesn't really push your brain. And I find, I say this an awful lot, by having these questions, by having the people such as yourself and other guests on that really challenge the brain and how you think, you need time to digest everything you just heard. Even though a lot of it was philosophical, there was a lot of meat in there, so to speak. So why don't we slide into the final couple questions here brought to you by Crudemaster Transport? I always ask this. I'm always curious who you would do this with. If you, if Carol was going to start her, her law podcast,

maybe not. It doesn't have the law. Who would you want as your first guest? Like, who would you, who would you take? Who do you want to pick the brain up right now? As somebody who's alive right now? I usually let it slide, but yeah, we'll go with a live, sure. Okay, because, because if it weren't alive, I'd love to see what Winston Churchill would say right now. I love to see that. I would love to see what Nelson Mandela would have to say about this and Martin Luther King Jr. Can you imagine just on a side note, Churchill, cigar, his port, or whatever beverage he's got sitting there? I can just imagine him getting questioned by the reporters and him letting him have it. That's my thought anyways.

I visited a lawyer friend this morning. And as I left him, I waved and we both said to each other, keep buggering. on. I know that's probably not a cooce phrase nowadays, but of course that's what Winston Churchill said all through World War II is keep buggering on, you know, chin up, keep moving, a fight. Yeah. Someone alive today, I don't know. I don't know who that would be. I can only think of the people that I admire throughout history. I've been talking a lot about Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Sean, because I think he's very instructive. His story, he stood early on in Second World War. In 1933, he was the first Protestant minister to stand up and he gave a sermon called the Jewish,

something to do with the Jewish question, where he said, we have to defend people who are victims in our society, even if they aren't us, even if they're unlike us. And then second, and we have to do what we can do to help them. So speak up for them, help them. And third, if we must stand against the very state itself, that was his third solution. And of course he did. He was executed for it because he was willing to as a Christian stand up for, primarily it was the Jews that he stood for. Because he said, we're here to stand up for victims.

That's the only reason we're on planet Earth. So I will stand for people, whether I agree with the vaccinations or not, I will stand for people who are being victimized. And people are being victimized right now. It's not fair. It's not right. And no one should want it for tomorrow. So I would talk to Dietrich Bonhofer, were he here, Sean? Here's your final one then. What's one, I call it development. For you, it might be legal case or something along that lines. but I'm going to say one development you're keeping your eyes on that you have close tabs on that you're like, it doesn't have to be one of yours. It can just be across the board.

Is there something people should be paying close attention to maybe over the next couple weeks, month, end of the year? Is there anything that catches your eye that you've been keeping tabs on? Well, I'm especially keeping tabs on the response of the health minister in Alberta Health Services. I'm watching for that because typically. you know, the term Alberta Strong. That's what we pride ourselves in Alberta. Is Alberta Strong? When no one will speak up for something

Albertans will. And they are. They have and they are and they will continue. So will Alberta Health Services and the minister? Will they respond and have dialogue? Will they respect that there are healthcare workers that are seeing the real picture or the picture from their perspective? and that perspective could help and that dialogue should be engaged.

That's what I'll be watching over the next couple weeks to see, do we care about patients in Alberta? Well, then let's have a dialogue with the healthcare workers that are, they want to bring their perspective to the table. I'm watching that. Well, I appreciate you giving me some of your busy time and sitting down and doing this with me. It's been, well, I keep saying this has been thoroughly enjoyable. Thoroughly enjoyable for me too, Sean.

Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. It's a bright light in my day. Hey folks, thanks for joining us today. If you just stumbled on the show, please click subscribe. Then scroll to the bottom and rate and leave a review. I promise it helps. Remember, every Monday and Wednesday, we will have a new guest sitting down to share their story.

The Sean Newman podcast is available for free on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever else you get your podcast fix. Until next time. Thank you.