Shaun Newman Podcast - Ep. 35 Life as a Ref - Deion Foster

Episode Date: September 25, 2019

Deion is the only guy I can think of that loves reffing… and is under 30... I mean seriously reffing is not job #1 for most kids graduating school. In this episode we find out what the life of ref is like, what drove Deion to push through some of the BS, the crazy hockey parents in the stands and where his career is heading.

Welcome to the podcast, everyone. Really excited this week. We are only a few days away from the Boundary Battle of Alberta that pits the Calgary Flames against the Emmington Oilers, alumni, obviously. On the Oilers, you have Doug Hicks, Rob Brown, Jeff Deloree, Mark Fistrick, Louis de Brusk, Fernando Pisani, Corey Cross,

George O'Roc, and Ethan Morrell. Going against Dana Mersen, Mike Commodore, Mason, Raymond, Jamie McCown, Matt St. and they just announced Theo Flurry. And for the kids, they got both the mascots coming, Hunter the Links, Harvey the Hound. And I'm really excited to announce that I'm going to be doing in-game hosting for it. So I'm going to be running around with the crowd in between periods, you name it, I'll be there. So really excited for this.

If you haven't got tickets yet, what are you doing? I mean, this is going to be a great, great time. If you're, you got the kids, bring the kids. It's a family event. If you don't have kids, it's got a bar. Come have a beer. All the money's going to Project Sunrise, and I think it's going to be a really good time. So they got the noon game rate now is not sold out.

So make sure you stop by boundary for and get tickets or Saturday morning, come down and hop in line. I'm sure you'll be able to grab a ticket or two. They also have from 9 to 11 on Saturday morning an autograph session. I think it's $5 or $10 a poster, and then you can get everybody's signatures from 9-11. So make sure you guys stop out and support this great event, guys. All the money is going to Project Sunrise. I don't know how many more times I'm going to say that.

And if you don't have got tickets, get up off your keyster, and go down to Boundary Ford and buy a couple tickets. Next, factory sports. Still looking for somebody out there. They're looking for you. What are you doing? Or they're looking for your son, your daughter. If you got somebody looking for a job, wants to work with a great group of guys,

Factory Sports is it. They know sports. Get them down there if you got somebody that's interested in getting involved in the sports world. Now's the time. Factory Sports, they can apply with their resume by either stopping in or emailing FactorySports. That Taylor, T-A-Y-L-R at SASTEL.net. Next, Vic Juba, Theater. They got Ravine coming in here this coming Wednesday.

So October 2nd is Ravine, the hypnotist. He's supposedly phenomenal. They still got tickets available. If you want to get some, they're only $35 a piece. That's a steel guy. 7 o'clock show on Wednesday. And it's super easy. You want to buy some?

Just go online. Go to vikjuba theater.ca. And everything's set up there so you can just scroll through, click it, and pick up tickets, and then go to the AI. box office and grab them when you go to the show, right? It's fully licensed. It's a beautiful theater. If you've never been to the Vic Juba Theater,

I highly suggest you go. It's a great little spot here in Lloyd Minster. T-Bar-1 Transport is also looking for some work. Maybe things are turning around in the city of Lloyd. They're looking for a couple of class one drivers. They start at anywhere between $28 and $30 an hour. Now, that depends on experience. and so if you're looking for work, you're out of work, your truck driver, they're looking for guys.

Now obviously, if you got some good experience, that's going to help you. But regardless, if you're interested, send your resumes to dispatch at tbar1.com. T-bar 1, spelled T-B-A-R-1.com. All right. So if you're looking for some work, there's some people out there that are looking to hire currently. So that's cool. All right. The IHD innovative question for you today. Keep on the lookout during the episode.

You could win two tickets. Be putting the draw to win two tickets to show at Vic Juba with Reveen this coming Wednesday. So if you answer it correctly, just make sure you fire off an email or track me down via social media. And we'll get you hooked up, all right? I haven't done any show notes in a while. And I've had a couple of cool ones come through a buddy of mine from high school down at Bowen Island just south of Medicine Hat, Curtis Clark, through this one at me this week. He said, you finally listened to the interview with Cy Campbell.

And he said, that and then, that was cool. He goes, that is one humble man. And I agree, if you haven't listened to the Cy Campbell episode World War II, I highly suggest you go back and give it a listen. It's highly entertaining. Next, Jason Mitchell Rope. I've listened to quite a few episodes and all have been entertaining. Standouts for me so far have been Corey Cross, Greg Buchanan, Shep, and the Biking Across Canada episodes.

I couldn't agree more. All those are fantastic. Thanks for reaching out, Jason. And finally, Enwin Sunderland put on Twitter, been wanting to listen to the Sean Newman podcast for quite some time, but wasn't available on my podcast app for some reason. Checked again and it's listed. Heard great things about it and suggest you farmers give it to try this fall season. Lots of great local games.

and I should give a shout out to all the farmers out there. Hopefully she stays dry for you, boys, and this rain just disappears, because I know this is tough, stressful times when it keeps raining off and on like it has been. Now, this week I had Dion Foster on, and he is a local kid from here in Lloyd Minster who is done what most people don't do.

He gave a pokey and started reffing. And not only did he start refing, he became a pretty dang good ref. And now he refs almost completely with the WHL, but he's been to international, or I should say like Royal Bank Cups, not international, national championships.

He's reffed all through the WHL playoffs, and so his resume is becoming quite impressive. Anyways, we sat and chatted about all of his reffing stories and his career up to this, point. And so, you know, without further ado, boys and girls, enjoy. So welcome to Sean Newman podcast. Today I'm joined by Dion Foster, uh, local refing legend or quickly becoming. So I'm really excited to have you. I was telling your brothers, uh, that I've been kind of like hassling you now for probably like four or five months because I've, I've had enough hockey guys

on. I've had enough guys who've done multiple aspects of the game except for a referee. And so I'm really excited to, uh, have to have. your perspective and just kind of get your story and how you get into repping because reffing is not a career many choose and we're just talking about rightfully so there's a lot of you're going to have really thick skin you probably have to let it roll off your back because a lot of people are very opinionated when it comes specifically to hockey but all sports so thanks again for hopping on no worries thanks for having me and apologize for not coming sooner I know you've been texting me for probably yeah like you said four months

So you're a busy guy. Super excited. It's really cool to share this aspect of this of hockey, really, and a lot of guys won't ever hear this side of the story. Yeah, yeah, it's really cool. How was your wedding? You got married this summer. Yeah, wedding was awesome.

It was June 15th. It took up most of our winter planning for it, so that's why we haven't been able to come on. But it was awesome. It was a day I'll never forget. Having everyone there was phenomenal. Yeah, right, right. though, a wedding is one of the, I mean, I can't speak for everybody else, but I fully plan on having only one wedding.

Oh, for sure. And it's like one of those days that there's so much build up. Yeah. So much work goes into it. 100%. And then you get there. It's a fun day, but she blows by and then you're like, man, there's a lot of planning for like, what, 12 hours? Oh, for sure.

It's actually almost depressing because, like, we want to go live that day again, but it just won't ever happen again. That same exact day. Did you get like all the video and pictures and stuff like that? Yeah, we just, we had a videographer, had a video done and everything. And we actually just got our pictures back, I think, last week. So it was, it was awesome to see those. And honestly, like, we drive in the car and we hear a song that played at our wedding, and it, like, just brings back memories and stuff.

And it was only, like, two months ago. So are you the guy then who hops on his honeymoon two days after? No. You haven't gone? We haven't gone. So we actually, the weekend after our wedding, one of my good, good buddies that I ref with in Emmettin, got married in Colonna. So we used that for, I think we're there for four days, just used it as a little getaway. But we planned this winter to go somewhere, maybe Mexico or something, once it's miserable up here and stuff.

I was a short little story about our wedding. We got married, my wife's from Minnesota. So we got married in Minnesota, but in August 2nd, 2014. There's our five-year wedding anniversary this year. Nice, congrats. Shout it to my wife because she's the best. Mine too. And so we got married on August 2nd, and I am the firm belief if you don't take your honeymoon

like right after, then you just get life gets busy and then it's like, I got too many friends that are like three layers later and they're like, ah, maybe we'll take a honeymoon finally. So we went to Mexico for 10 days in August. Oh, nice. Let me tell you how hot it was. My eyelid sweat. the backs of my knees sweat. Yeah, no doubt.

I am a polar bear. Yeah. And in the best of days in Canada, I sweat. Down there, I melted. Yeah. But I still enjoyed it. Yeah. So make sure you get on your honeymoon.

That's like, it's kind of short story is Brody just got married last August in Hawaii. So we're like, well, why the heck are we going to Hawaii in August? But kind of a sad part of the wedding was hurricane there. So we survived the hurricane. The wedding ended up going off. But yeah, it was like 38 degrees. degrees every day and it was it was amazing but so hot yeah you can't bathe them that heat up yeah yeah yeah I mean right now I'm depressed because it's August and it feels like it's like

oh yeah yeah right now it's miserable you're staring at me I'm wearing a hoodie in the studio or in the studio like I'm kind of chilly 100% okay let's get to it so let's go back to when you're younger yeah um you started playing hockey I assume Yeah, yeah. And so, I mean, I know I graduated with one of your brothers. Your brothers are very talented hockey players. I assume you're on the ice all the time with them. At what point then do you go, you know, I just don't feel like playing hockey.

And I don't know, maybe tell us a little bit about that. Yeah, I mean, growing up with three older brothers, hockey literally was our life. I remember playing on the driveway, playing in the garage, playing in the middle of the road in winter. unfortunately being the fourth of the of five you end up being the goalie most of the time so you get pelted with the tennis balls but hockey literally was our life um i started hockey just like every other kid played through through you know initiation novice up through bantam i never was like the best kid wasn't the worst but i mean i loved hockey love playing and that's i just wanted to be out on the ice right finished bantam hockey and i just you know i just wasn't having fun doing it

anymore. Just curious, what was not fun about it anymore? I think, I don't know if it was, I'm just a really competitive person and maybe playing A-hockey and not the elite hockey. Maybe the other kids weren't as competitive, didn't, you know, care as much about it and put in the effort. Okay. But it was just, I just wasn't having fun, you know.

After that last year, Bantam, you know, going into next year into the midget, I was just like I wasn't excited to start playing hockey again. I wasn't getting the itch to get back to the rink and play. Also at that time, I was going into grade 10, made the senior team for volleyball at the comp in Lloyd here. So, you know, I kind of had to make a decision. I could have made it work with both, you know, playing hockey and volleyball. But at the end of the day, I kind of thought to myself,

there's a better chance potentially down the road of getting a scholarship through volleyball or something like that than ever doing with hockey or anything like that. So I made the courage, courageous decision to pull the plug on the hockey career. And go play some volleyball. Go play volleyball at the comp. I mean, it's very rare. Grade 10 makes the senior team and stuff.

How did you guys do volleyball? The first year we made provincials. Unfortunately, we never did win a game at provincials. Second year, we never made provincials. Third year, we made provincials again. And unfortunately, we still didn't win a game there. But volleyball is different in the cities because they play a year-round in the city.

We play for four months of the year. I'm going to sound really dumb here because I'm married to a volleyball player and I still don't know what the season. What is the four-month season then for the comp or lawyer? Yeah, we start in September, beginning September, then it usually, I guess it's only really three months. It usually ends in November.

So, I mean, at the comp, we were playing three days, or practicing three days a week and then go on Friday, Saturday, Sunday for tournaments. So to be able to fit hockey in there, it would have been tough. Yeah. Thankfully, I made that decision to quit hockey. Okay. So you're playing volleyball.

Yeah. Had you been, and you're playing hockey, now you've quit hockey and you're talking about volleyball. Yeah. Is it right there you decide, oh, maybe I want to stick around hockey and start reffing? Yeah, I still think back to this day of when I made that decision, because it doesn't really stick out to me, but it must have just been one day. I was like, you know, I'm going to try refing. And I loved hockey so much. I loved being at the rink, being around the guys and stuff, but I just felt like I knew I was going to miss it. So I was like, why not try roughing?

I'd always, again, growing up with three older brothers and my sister and playing hockey all the time, I remember reffing street hockey games and stuff going out. All my brother's friends are there and then they wouldn't let me play so I'd stand there and ref and call penalty shots and stuff and it was it's wild I remember playing mini sticks in the basement and we'd have it'd be me brodie and Tyler or something and we'd play against each other then the person that wasn't playing had to ref it and stuff and I remember reffing those games so I don't know if it's- you're giving me a memory of yeah like so I'm the youngest of five right I got I got three older brothers an older sister and then myself and I was too small at times and I put that parentheses right

So I'd sit on the couch and rap And I remember doing that Yeah That was fun It just it stuck with me for You know Until this day And I don't know if it's

You know if that made me want a raft or not But like it's It's something that I do remember So So where Where did you Do you remember your first game you're wrapped? Yeah

Because at that time you would have been then What 15 16? Yeah I think it was I'm pretty sure it was I think it was like a Peewee B game Like a Sunday night at like six o'clock like um i think it was it was at the multiplex and lloyd but i think we did

a two-man game i believe nerves nerves oh yeah i was scared shitless but uh it was almost like exciting too it was like starting that new chapter like when you you know get a new job or you know to a new school or something it's kind of like this is the new adventure like i get to try out i'm curious what um i was saying this off air i don't know a whole lot about the reffing profession. If anything, I laughed that I'm talking to a ref, right? Because I go, the refs around here know when I first got back, well, I'm a competitive guy. Oh, for sure, yeah. And at times, emotion dictates me on ice. I know everybody. Every player's. And the only thing I try and do is at the end of every period

slash game, I try and talk to the refs calmly at the end of the game, trying to shake the hand because no matter what, I mean, you guys do an amazing job. Because without you guys, there is no game. Right? Like I mean, 100%. And you're making tough split second decisions

and when it goes against your team, you're always fiery about it especially if it's a close game, right? It's hard not to... Yeah, it's just that competitive nature and everyone, right?

But I'm going to ask probably very beginner level questions. What did you have to do to become unofficial? Like, was it a long training? Yeah, for sure. Like when I first started? Yeah, absolutely.

When I first started, it was a two-day clinic. We had a take. So it was actually upstairs. There's the multiplex. I think there was probably 40 or 50 kids in that clinic. Funny story is my wife. Her dad is actually my first referee instructor for a clinic. Really? Yeah, so refereeing is kind of in her family too. But I do remember he was the, he was the instructor of that clinic. He used to ref for I think 30 or 40 years.

Oh, wow. So but yeah, so it's a two-day clinic. You do everything from you go through the rulebook, you learn what an offside is, you learn what an icing is, you learn where to stand. That's probably the biggest one, positioning, especially at the younger levels. Most, like, obviously I knew what an offside and icing was. You know, you know what a goal is, what a penalty is, but there's so many rules in the rule book that, like, apply to cert to every rule, right? There's so many offside rules and everything. So at that level, you're just learning the basics.

You learn what that happens if, you know, if there's a match penalty on it. official. You learn what happens if the Zambo when he breaks down, what you do or whatever, right? So a little simple things like that, right? How thick is the handbook of refing? Paper-wise, it's not, but actually getting in and reading it, it's mind-blowing the amount of rules that are actually in there. And the funny thing is you sit back and you sit there and you read the rule book and you're like, this had to have happened for this rule to be in this rule book, right? So it's like, it's just mind-blowing. what's actually in that rulebook, but I mean,

everything that you're in there and obviously for our job, we're supposed to know it front and back, right? So, yeah. So then every year, I assume you have to take a refresher course or every level you go up, you have to take a new course?

Yeah, 100%. So the way it works, so kind of back to that first, my first clinic, it used to be two days, you do all classroom stuff the first day, second day, you actually take your skates

and helmet and whistle and stuff and you go and you know simulate calling an icing simulate calling an offside and stuff and positioning and whatnot but once you get up they've actually changed the clinic system now it's only a one-day clinic the idea of it is to it's to help get more officials out get more officials to take the clinic and stuff so you don't get as much training but at the same time the more officials you can get through the door and get their certification then it helps but after that every year you have to recertify you have to rewrite the test you have to you know rewrite redo everything you have to sit through an eight hour eight hour clinic and whatnot so even if you've been doing it for yeah even if you've been doing it for 30 years just

continue to you have to do a clinic every year uh re-up you know you pay your fees we do have to pay fees to ref so it seems kind of weird but why why do you have it covers honestly it covers like your insurance through hockey Canada. It covers all the zone stuff, so all the hockey zones are split into sections and everything. So all the administrative stuff, all the, you know, we have a chairman's stuff, just help pay for that stuff and whatnot. So a little bit goes to hockey Alberta and everything. So it's just our basically registration fees and software fees and stuff like that. Okay. Yeah, yeah, that kind of makes sense. Yeah, and then obviously we have to write a test every year. You've gotten very good at that test. In a regular clinic, it's just a multiple choice test. But once you get

through the ranks. It's actually, it's called an SRD exam. So it's asked a question and it says SRD at the end. SRD means state referees decision. So it's a lot harder than just a multiple choice because you actually have to get, you have to write it out and explain exactly what the ruling is. So we have to write that every year.

Every year it changes questions and whatnot. So that's where, you know, you get those questions that you see and you never think will happen in a game. Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious then. How was your first couple years reffing? Was it that serious back then when you were in high school?

I mean, you're going to high school. You're playing competitive volleyball. And now you start reffing, I assume, full-time? Yeah. I don't even know what full-time means. Yeah, so it was kind of when I was playing volleyball, we usually, I think our tournaments usually were Friday, Saturdays. So usually the only during the first three months I would ref would be Sundays.

So, you know, I'd play volleyball Friday, Saturday, ref Sundays. But at that age, I had no idea where I could go with it. You know, it was just kind of, oh, I'm making $30 a game, $40 a game. It was nice in high school, you know, all through winter. Yeah, a little spending money and stuff. But that was basically it. I mean, there wasn't really any weekday games,

so you'll just be roughing all weekend through the winter and stuff. And, you know, having fun with your friends after games on Fridays and Saturdays and going out and whatnot. but that's that was basically it i mean luckily for me obviously if you've met some of her brothers you know they're six foot four six three six two right so i was actually it's very unheard of but i was you know i was lyonsing junior b at 15 years old i was linesing senior at 15 years old and i remember when i first came i mean this would have been a few years after you started because how old are you now i'm 26 or just turned 27 actually just turned 27 i came i came back in my first or

second game in Saskelt with Hillman, you were linesing. Yeah, I was actually driving out here, I was like, I'm pretty sure that Sean played in Hillman when I was reffing there. Just right when I first got back. I think it was only maybe the first, maybe the second season. You weren't, because you didn't do it very long and you were gone and you were on to what I consider, you know, the next level for refing. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, honestly, growing up in this area to get into refing is, it's a goal of mine out here. We got, you have all the levels of hockey, you know, you have Ban of AAA, mid of AAA, TRIPLA, tons of senior. We even went into Saskatchewan and did senior, right? We always registered in both provinces. Um, so we actually had Velcro on our jerseys. We had to switch our crests all the time. Oh, really? Yeah. So we paid like a, I think it's like a $20 affiliate fee so that we could ref in Saskatchewan as well. So it was, there was, you know, there was four senior leagues around that we could ref, right? Uh, junior B,

the Northeast Junior B League. There's, what, 18, six or seven teams out here. There was senior AAA when I was reffing here, right? So there's tons of hockey and not a whole bunch of officials, right? It's such a spread out area. It's not like Emmettin where, you know, there's 3,000 officials right in the middle of Emmettin, right? That's right, yeah.

The opportunities are endless. What is the number on your back signify? Do you get to pick that? No, it's actually, everyone asked that question. it's given to you. I don't really know the whole reason. I think it's just to be like, it's almost like a pride thing.

What the players have numbers? What number are you? I'm 128. 128. So you're not like the 128th official. No, no. So it's kind of like an unwritten rule that all the referees are double digits. Most of the referees are double digits.

And then the linesmen get, there's a lot more linesmen in the league. That's why. Okay. The difference between you don't see triple digits in the case. Q and the O. Basically, all the teams are so close there that they don't have as many linesmen in the Western League. You know, it's so spread out over four provinces, right? So there's a lot more local linesmen. Everyone has a different number, so they've reached up to there. But kind of cool story with my number is Corey Lungwist. He's Lloyd Minster guy. He used to lines in the Western Hockey

League as well. Fortunately, you can continue with health issues and stuff, but I actually got his number. So it's kind of kind of a cool story. Another Lloyd boy. getting that number so it kind of kind of special i guess you could say but yeah yeah yeah that is really cool so really you were looking around the studio and you see what i've done i've put up all my jersey do you have a room where you just have all your different lines i actually from all the i was just telling my wife because we're still we're still renting a townhouse so we don't actually own a house yet but i'm 100% going to have a bunch of jerseys up on the wall and stuff too so in the western league we get a new jersey every year or every other year sorry okay um

So this year I'll get my third one. So I'll have an extra one to throw up on a wall somewhere and whatnot. Do they do jerseys, uniform jersey, whatever you guys call? Do they change that much? They don't. So we actually, with with refing and when you're roughing minor hockey, you have to supply everything. So you have to buy your own jersey. You have to actually pay for your own crest to put on it and stuff.

You have to pay like three bucks for the hockey Canada crest and five bucks for the hockey Alberta or whatnot. but you have to change the crest whenever they change the crest and everything. But they stay the same. Our Western League jerseys are quite a bit different. They're more of the pro-style you'll see. But the standard hockey Canada jersey is the same as, you know, what they wear at foot locker, basically. Just long-sleeve.

I've wrapped a couple games in a wreck tournament. And I tell you what, you guys are a special breed. It's even in a wreck term that you get a freaking cat called for anything. Yes, 100%. What was the first game situation where you made you question, maybe this is going to be too much or, you know what? I don't know, something along that lines where you had to take a breath and really think about it. You know, I've always thought about that.

And I hear some guys that say, you know, I've just had enough of this. and I honestly don't think I've ever had that situation. I've obviously got yelled at up. Obviously, you know, coaches, I remember throwing water bottles across the ice and, you know, in certain leagues and stuff in certain places. But I've never once, like, said, you know what, I've had enough with this. I just, I almost find it as, like, a relief to go out and ref and just, you get on the ice, you let everything else go in the world.

You know, you don't worry about anything going on at home. You don't worry about anything at your job. You don't worry about anything. You just get to go out and enjoy hockey. So I just, I've never really had that experience of like, screw this, I'm done. Part of it is, is a calm demeanor. You have a very calm demeanor on the ice. Actually, a couple guys that when I announced you're coming on had sent something along that lines, right?

Like, basically the best linesman I've ever had in the hockey game. And part of that is, is just your demeanor. And there's a lot of good linesmen like that that just have a very calm, not too much ratchewal. battles them. Yeah, and that's as a linesman, you almost have to be like that because you're so, you're so involved with the players. You're by the benches all the time. You know, when a guy takes a penalty, you're escorting them to the penalty box.

So you're the one that's always like, if he's yelling at the referee for a penalty that, you know, he may disagree with, you're the one calming him down. You're the one trying to, you know, keep his head in the game so that he can go out to score or something, right? So you're, you almost have to be, you know, when a coach is yelling on the bench, you're right there in between him and the ref usually, right? or something. So, you know, you learn to deal with that stuff through calmness and, you know, bring them down down a level, you know, when there's a scrum after a whistle, right? You don't go in

their bulls ablaze in you, you know, you calm everyone down, right? So you prevent them from doing something stupid. What is the stupidest thing you've seen on the ice? Maybe not stupid. It doesn't matter. What's the thing that sticks out? I actually wrote it in my notes as it was a game up in Hillmont. I don't know. Of course. You're going to throw it. I don't know if you were playing there. I was trying to remember what year it was. I think it was 2009, 2010, maybe. Okay.

I think it was Vermillion Rock. For all the listeners, then I was not a part of this. Yeah, so maybe even 2011. I was trying to remember, but it was Vermillion Rock was in town. And I remember there was a hit into Hillmont's bench and the door was open. I think the forward door was open or something. So the gate right next to Vermilion's bench. And the Hillman guy hit Vermon's bench.

million's player into the bench. And so he was laying on the floor in the bench. And obviously, you know, how, you know, guys get when they're, you know, get excited. So players on the bench are punching them. I actually think the coach was even getting involved in it. He probably deserved it. Yeah, the craziest thing is all of a sudden we're trying to get there. And then all of a sudden, the vermilion coach is coming in the bench.

And the vermilion coach is actually in Hillman's bench, you know, trying to push players off and stuff and like it doesn't seem crazy but to be a part of that like it's easy breaking up guys on the ice with skates because you can actually like push them you know it's hard for them to stop and resist you or you can hold them but when a guy's on shoes in a bench like what do you do you grab them by the coat and then they're going to punch you or something so I don't know why I ask you that question as soon as you mentioned it now they're going to think him on and but honestly that of all the stories of like you know crazy stuff happening I'd say senior hockey is 100% the most crazy league the craziest stuff I've

seen is in that league whether and you know Sask Alta or I don't even know what leagues around here in Ball River is even that a league anymore I don't even know North Sask River yeah like they come and go used to be wild goose and wild goose yeah so did you ref the border kings back in the day I did do the border kings back in the day actually the year that I don't know if the year they were hosting now in Cup those year both my brothers played. Yeah, 2000. That would have been 2011, 12?

10 or 11, I think. Because that was Brody's first year back, I believe, from playing college hockey. Yeah. So he played and I actually, yeah, was on the ice with both my brothers. And it was actually a cool experience. It's kind of weird, but. So you got to rep an Allen Cup? I've yet to do an Allen Cup.

But you got to rep that team with them playing? Yeah, playing. So did you throw a couple of them in there? You know, it's, I always get that question. It's, you know, do you have a favorite team out there? You know, do you, do you ever pick sides? And honestly, to be able to do that as an official is actually harder than to actually just go out and rough the game.

To actually go out and, like, have a grudge against someone because at the end of the day, it's your reputation on the line. So if you're clearly making a call and if you know what's the wrong call, there's a good chance that, you know, 15, 20 other people in the rink know what's the wrong call. And they're going to remember that, right? So I always get that, you know, refing your brothers, you ever pull favors and stuff?

But honestly, it's so hard to be able to do that. If I ref my brothers, I'd be the complete opposite. I'd be like, you're in the pen. Yeah, but at the end of the day, it's like,

what leg do you have to stand to do that, right? So I don't know. I actually remember my, with refing Aaron one game, it was like three minutes into the game. And I can't remember, he didn't take a penalty, but someone else took a penalty.

And he wheeled by the ref. Are you fucking kidding me? That's fucking terrible. Boom, you got a 10 right away. And I remember skating him to the bench and to the Peli box. He's like, what? That's it. That's all I got.

That's all I said. That's getting a 10. I'm like, man, you can't do that after a penalty. Like, go up to him and talk to him after, right? Like, it's that emotion that they, players don't think they're doing anything wrong, but as an official to stand there and hear it, it's like instantly, right? You don't, you're not always in their head. So, yeah, it was pretty, it was pretty,

Here's a question, and it's funny that comes off your brother getting a 10. We're saying the four, maybe they offer that a part of hockey specifically, but other sports as well, is the abusive official is something that is just commonplace and allowed. I go, if there's some things they could do to clean up, you know, the game, they're really focused on hits and fights. 100%. It was two or huge. but you look at the abuse that officials are under even if they refs the greatest game

and that goes from little kids hockey all the way through to the NHL oh for sure and I know as you probably jump levels probably I well and you probably answer this does it get better as you jump levels as you went from senior and midget AAA Bannam AAA Bannam whatever in Lloyd and now you're in the dub have you noticed that the abuse is left

Less? 100% less. I'd say it's not at the higher levels, it's not abuse. It's more of at the end of day, it's the coach's full-time job. It's the GM's full-time job. You know, the players are trying to make the NHL. And it's more of a professional approach to it. So they're more asking why. You know, why did you make that call? If it was a judgment call, what makes, why did you call that so that they can adjust their game to it? so it doesn't happen again. Okay. Obviously, there's going to be situations, you know, when they disagree and, you know, they lose their minds. But at the end of the day, usually at the higher levels, if the coach is losing their mind, usually something was wrong. You know, I'd say probably half the time it was. You know, sometimes they're just completely wrong and off the deep end.

But at the end of the day, you know, it is their job. So they got to know why that's happening so that they can adjust their game to it. So, but at the younger levels, I mean, it's. that's probably my if I had a goal in life to help out and try and find a solution to the abuse on officials

that would be my prime objective in life is I can't stand you know as a more elite official I go and supervise supervised younger officials and teach them how to get better and stuff and just sitting in the rink

and hearing the things that parents say especially in like an Adam game or you know a novice game even, you know, parents are yelling across the ice and they don't even realize what they're saying. They're just doing it because they think they have to. But it just, it bugs me so much. You think there's, is there something we could do to change? Honestly, I think, I think it has to come from, and I'm not saying, throwing anyone under the bus or anything,

I think it has to come from the associations. Yeah. So I think like, you know, your minor hockey associations in the cities and stuff, when stuff like that happens, and, you know, referees report abuse or anything like that, I think minor hockey associations have to take a stand and really, you know, suspend them for a year. You know, suspend their kid, right? Then if your kid's going to get suspended because of your actions,

then maybe you should take a look at what you're doing, right? But at the end of the day, too, I mean, at some of those levels, it's younger officials. And honestly, they don't sometimes, know how to handle it. I would say they really don't know how to that's the scary thing. And the scary thing with that is really, then it falls on our side is we need to teach these officials when stuff like this happens, what you can do.

And I think that comes from our standpoint. It comes from, you know, the association standpoint. And but at the end of the day, we shouldn't have to do that. You know what I mean? Like, it's a game that everyone's supposed to be going on and having fun with. Well, speaking, just to talk for a few minutes about, like, the young officials, I don't have kids yet playing there yet, right? So I haven't been able to witness it, but I've heard about, like, I don't know,

13, 14-year-olds getting yelled at for a call they made in an Adam game, a novice game, and you're like, you know, you can try and put whatever penalties or rules in against parents and stuff. But, man, wouldn't it be just nice if they're co-worker, their friend just lean over and said man the kid's 13 he's trying to rap like just relax right and that's that's that's a group of people in a rink and somebody out there there's some ref listening to this right now laughing at me because they they've dealt with me on the ice and I get into it just as bad as anyone right

I get heated yeah when I get heated stupid things come out of my mom right it happens it happens to the best of us yeah and so I know for parents there's probably some parents going yeah it happens to me too from time at time yeah but to have you know like just so commonplace. I don't know, I don't mind some sort of implication if they're yelling. I just don't know how you implement it. And that's,

I think that's what the biggest struggle is too, right? And, you know, everyone's talking about, you know, you have bullying in schools and bullying, you know, on playgrounds and stuff. But at the end of the day, the most of the parents or most of the coaches that do this yelling are constantly doing it. They're, you know, when there's a hockey team,

everyone knows which parents are the one that does it, right? So it's just as much everyone's fault to let that parent do that. And, you know, I've been sitting there in games and I've wanted to so many times go up and say something, but even I don't, right? So it's like, who's going to take that step and do that, right? And that's what that's the hard part of is, am I willing to put myself on the line to stop this, right? And obviously, like I said, it's my objective, but at the same time, it's like, what's the implications of this going to happen? And so it's, I might sound like a hypocrite, but at the same time, it's like, I also feel like I shouldn't have to be the one to deal with it, right? Like, you're a 45-year-old yelling at a 13-year-old that's been reffing for three games, right?

So at the other day, who knows? Right? It's kind of like that long-in-law. Well, and the other thing, even if it's a 40-year-old, you're yelling out on the ice, right? You go like, it's not like they're full-time repping. I can be wrong, and you know the answer to this. How many, what level do you get to where you just ref? Usually like American League or NHL.

Okay, so you got to be pretty damn. 100%. Yeah. So right now you go and you ref every weekend and then what are you doing Monday to Friday? So I'm actually, yeah, I have a full-time job. So work 40 hours a week. I work for a company called Fastenol in Emmettin. Okay.

So, you know, we sell construction industrial supplies. I'm a general manager, so I'm running my own branch and everything. So, really, I mean. So you're a busy man. 40 hours a week and then. Well, the rest of us go and sip beer and put her feet up on. Yeah, so it's tough because, I mean, when I was going through school and, you know, university and everything, it was easy, right?

Yeah. You know, work, have class till two, go home, nap, have a game at night at seven, right? So, yeah, a lot of times I'm working seven until four. 30s, 7 till 5, and then going straight to the rink and wrecking a game. So it's a different aspect that a lot of people don't realize because everyone thinks of junior hockey, right? Like all the players, you know, they come for a morning skate, go home, have a nap, have pregame meal, right? Get to the rink two hours before, you know, stretch for half an hour, run around the rink, play sewer ball or whatever they play. And, you know, we're rolling in, munching on subway,

trying to get some food in us before we have to go a ref straight from work, right? So it's definitely... What is some of the things that go on behind in a refs room that are just, you know, are an inside drove with refs? I don't know. There has to be something. Honestly, it's such a unique, a unique group we are. I mean, we kind of call ourselves like a brotherhood, right?

Yeah. Whether you're a hockey official in, you know, in Sweden or a hockey official in Canada, you know, you're all part of the same group. But honestly, once we get in the room, it's a lot of bugging each other, you know, making fun of each other, having fun, you know, taking jabs at each other. But we, you know, we do warm up and stuff. We play wall ball ball, it's called. Okay. What's wall ball?

Wall ball. It's basically we just hit a ball against the wall and you all go in a rotation, you know, the whole crew is playing. And the person, it can't bounce twice. So the next person goes. and then, you know, if they miss it or whatever, then they get a point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you. So we use that as like a warm up to kind of get our legs moving, especially after a road trip of sometimes, you know, six hours, an hour or whatever. So, but other than that, I mean, we're only there usually an hour to an hour and a half before the game.

So some guys like to stretch and some guys like to run. What is your home rank? Can I put that in quotations? Is it Rogers. I'd say it's Rogers in Emmerton. Yeah, it's what a rank that is. it's phenomenal. Everything from, you know, we get to park underground.

You know, so when it's minus 40 out, you know, get to roll inside and everything from... You can feel kind of what the big time is. You don't have to wear a, fucking a winter parka. You can, you know, leave your coat in there, walking in a suit looking all fresh and stuff. So, but everything in that ring from like the security staff, like to, you know, the Oil Kings, like, not equipment guys,

but dressing room attendance and, you know, bring us towels and stuff. the Zamboni guys in that rank. Like it's just, it's top notch, it's professional. Like, it's mind-blowing. And then just to be on that ice, you know, cranking your neck to look up at the Jumbotron and stuff. Which is a Jumbo TRO. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. So a lot of people don't know. There's actually TVs underneath of it that we used to look at because to look straight up at the big screen. It's actually, you actually really have to look up. So what are the TVs? What do you mean? TV's underneath the Jumbotron,

there's actually TVs pointing towards the benches. Okay. Because when you're in the neutral zone to look up at the actual scoreboard in the video, you actually really have to look up. So you actually just look underneath and there's giant TVs that are there pointing towards the benches. No kidding. With the score and like video replays and everything? Videos on there, pennlies and everything.

So, yeah, it's pretty cool. How many times after play do you look up and go? Oh, yeah. Okay, that's a nice angle of it. Yeah, usually I like to look because usually I'll have the puck waiting for, you know, everyone to come for face off and stuff. stuff so supposed to be watching the players and making sure nothing's happening and everything's good i like to always look after penalties are called um a lot of times the referees always you know

we're a team out there so they always ask like hey you get a look on that or you know what our thoughts was so i always like to try and have a look of what the penalty was usually they show the penalty replays but honestly i i probably peek up more just like after i grab the puck from the goalie and go stand at the dog just watching replays and stuff and very rarely do the They show replays of offside calls or icings. So there's not really ever those for us, or big hits or anything like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. How far do you travel?

You mentioned driving six hours, that kind of thing. So, like, you're in Emmington right now, correct? Yeah, live in there. So your home rink is Rogers Place whenever there's dub games going on that kind of thing. Where is your radius? Where are you traveling to? Yeah, so for us, the way the Western League works with officials is the referees usually travel throughout the league. And then linesmen usually have a territory that they usually take care of.

Some places, like, remote, like Prince George will have a couple locals. And then usually one linesman will travel in or something. So I usually get up to Prince George a couple times a year. How far is it? Prince George is, I think it's like eight-hour drive. So usually we'll go up for like a Friday, Saturday or Saturday night, Sunday afternoon or something. You're getting your travel paid for a time? Yeah, so we get mileage and pay them and stuff.

and whatnot, hotels and whatnot. But then most of my games are Emmettin, Red Deer, Calgary, Lethbridge. Yep, okay. You know, once Calgary Lethbridge, there's a lot of guys there. Do you ever get bus legs? And for people, most people know what bus legs are. But as a player, you travel for eight hours on a bus, you're cramped, and then you've got to kind of pull yourself out of that to get your body skating.

Heck it even happens at senior level. Oh, for sure. I riding a bus for, well, when we get a bus. Eight minutes out to Hillmont. That's right. No, I was thinking Meadow Lake this year. Metal Lake was two in a bit, right? And the old body just doesn't remember that anymore.

I wouldn't say it's so much bus legs. We do go up to Prince Albert a lot, so it is a long drive. I would say it's more mentally trying to get into the game. That's the hardest part. Every official has their pregame thing. You know, you stretch for a bit, play ball ball, et cetera, et cetera. But I'd say the hardest thing is to flip that switch from, you know, staring at a road for six and a half hours to,

to getting in game mode, getting into game speed and stuff, and making sure you're on point. I'd say that's the hardest thing with the travel. Here's a question for you. We were talking about the Stanley Cup finals that just passed, right? And the hand passed. That never got saw and the game happens so bloody fast, right? And then, well, they score and whatever happens and it doesn't get called back.

And then, you know, the social media. just absolutely destroys a guy. What would it, what would be the biggest thing any league could do to help refs? Video. And when I say video, it's not have video review for every call. Video review for the most important calls in the game. You look at football, you know, every touchdowns reviewed, every turnovers review. So reviewed by, sorry, reviewed by you guys, so every goal reviewed or have a guy say?

getting in the stands. So, yeah, so kind of a little bit the way Western League works is we do have a video goal judge at every game. So we can initiate a review on that. On goals, they look at every goal. And we actually don't drop the puck until they give the thumbs up or whatnot. That certain situation, we actually have a rule for that in the Western League. So we would have been able to review that.

We would have been able to initiate a review and saw that a hand pass led directly to a goal. And I think they've now changed the rule to allow. that but honestly the way that the n hl's going with like coaches challenges and stuff like that i think it would be you know pretty easy to just have like a tablet in there you watch i watched two and a half mbba games in my life when the raptors were in the finals and you know they a ball goes out of bounds in the last two minutes and they double check to make sure the clock's right right um so it's typical can yeah we all watch the raptors for a few games in the finals so i mean there's a there's a there's such a fine balance of over video review and over analyzing game and just letting it happen, right?

But at the end of day, you got to think, like, there's millions and billions of dollars on the line for all these calls, right? So if we can avoid having these errors, then let's do it. But at the same time, we got to keep the fans engaged. We got to keep everyone engaged. So it's easy for me to sit here and be like, oh, yeah, just throw video review in and it'll be good or easy for fans to say, right? But at the end of the day, it's more. into that it's the players perspective and the coaches and gns and owners and stuff right so in my opinion a quick little video review five minutes or it would have taken 30 seconds to see a video and they could have easily waved it off right so i can't fault the nchl just because i mean they're there for a reason

but how how much has uh because you obviously started um before the craziness of social media got going. How much is social media or maybe all the camera angles changed how you guys go about your business? Oh, 100%. It's, I mean, you see some of the reviews that got done, even in baseball, like, you know, a play at first base, a catch that's out, he's out or safe by like an inch. An inch. And everyone says that's not what it was intended to do, but we have the best cameras in the world now. Like, you can see, you can zoom in so far. And again, it's down to that billions of dollars worth of, uh, uh, call, right? So it's frustrating from our standpoint because when it calls half an inch off side or half an inch good and you call it, say, for example, right? Like, there's nothing you can do about it, but the coach has someone in their ear already telling them that that was the wrong call

or, you know, we don't get to see it until we get into the dressing room. We don't get to see it until after the game usually, right? So it's not, it's almost one side of it, right? Like everyone else gets to see it 18, 15 times, but... From 12 different angles. But we have to make the call based on what we see. And at the end of the day, there's, you know, there's four sets of eyes out there. And that's all that we get to do. We don't get to...

We're played it in our mind, right? So... Here's it, we're talking, you bring up baseball. So they've been talking about this baseball, the baller bought. Yeah. So it says I was reading about, I heard about this like a week ago, right? It's just serendipitous, I think, is the word that you come on now, right? Big word for you.

It says to the casual observer, the game likely looked like any other. They're talking about an independent league used behind home plate of what they call a baller ball. So it says to the casual observer, the game likely looked like any other with a human umpire, standing where an umpire always stands. However, if they look closely, they'd see that Debrower, the guy behind home plate, was wearing an Apple Airpod in his right ear and had an iPhone in his back pocket. Those devices communicated with the stadium's trackman technology, which uses radar to follow each pitch from the moment it leaves the pitcher's hand.

And then that's what called, and all he did was make the motion. And anytime it does say that it went out twice in there. So then he just went back to refing. What's your thoughts on that? And I know that can't, well, maybe it could be pulled over to a hockey, but hockey's fat. Like, I mean. Oh, for sure, yeah.

Right? And I'd say like the equivalent to the balls and strikes, and baseball is like whether the puck crossed the line in hockey, right? And I think they're doing chips in the puck and stuff now to see that. Yeah. I think soccer has it now that once the ball fully crosses, it signals the ref. So I think eventually it will happen. Do I agree with it? No.

The reason being is it's kind of like union work we do. The more technology, the less jobs there might be for us. But really, at the end of the day, it all comes back to having the right call at the end of the day. So if you had a little air bud. Yeah. And the only thing it's ever going to do, well, maybe it's only one ref that has it. Because I mean, the off sides are happening two-parts. Oh, for sure, yeah.

But then again, maybe I'm just thinking, what are the big things in hockey, right? Like if it's a goal, if you had an earpiece in and they just said, yeah, it's a good goal. All you got to do is you don't have to slow down the game for anything. Yeah. So they, I mean, they kind of do that now. So we don't, like I said, we do review every goal. but at the end of the day, we wait until they give us the thumbs up or not.

And then if they do have to take longer, then they put the ref on the phone and stuff. But I think... Do you ref any other sports or just specifically hockey? Yeah, just hockey. I just don't have time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I bet your summers are used to kick back a little bit.

Yeah, but I mean, I think there's technology out there that we can use. I think actually in Europe and stuff, when you watch like World Cup, they all have earpieces that they can tell. talk to each other on the ice. I think that would be a really, really cool aspect that we could use. Little things like if a ref doesn't have a good look on something, right, we can just say, hey, yeah, yeah, or you can offer your opinion before a whistle or whatever. I think that would be the next step.

I'm not sure what leagues would be willing to do that. But I think, yeah, even in like world juniors and stuff, when you watch on TV, they have them or world championships, I think they do use it. So I think it'd be cool. I mean, in football, I think they use it because of the field. field so big so they can talk to each other. But I think it's soon going to happen. I just don't know when.

And again, as soon as that happens, there's so many rules that come involved into it and when you can use it and what you can use it for and stuff. Because really at the end of the day, like, linesmen can only call major penalties, right? So you can't have the ability for them to call minor penalties and stuff. So you've got to kind of keep the rules the same in line with hockey and stuff. in your short time Roughing Yeah

How is the speed of the game Change what you guys do Because I mean Every year it seems like That goes by the game Gets just a little more skilled And a little faster And it's

Less about having the big Fourth Line guy Who's gonna pummel somebody So you need the big linesman in there To break it up And more about Like it is fast, quick You gotta be on your toes

Yeah and that's the biggest I'd say that's the biggest transition To the game And that's why I think We're seeing So many of these big hits and big head checks is the game's so fast the guys are able to change directions so fast that when a guy's lining up to make a hit they're lined up square and then the guy makes a quick move

and then that's when his heads exposed or something right so it's it's the game is so much faster everything happens faster the plays happen faster and at the end of day it's really making it harder for us too right like we see these big hits and we only get one look we get four different angles from the four officials on the ice and we have to base the call on that right Would having video with something like that be like way like big time beneficial or would it not? I think it, the tricky thing with that is then like the way I look at is as soon as you put in a rule to review something, how many times is that going to question, right? So every single hit that happens, coaches are going to be like, oh, take a look at that hit, take a look at this. Right? So I think it's obviously we see the major that was called in the NHL and everyone talks about how you can avoid it and stuff. But really, I mean, a quick 20 second review could help that. But at the end of the day, if that rule is not in place, you have to do what we have to do. And there's only four angles to look at it. So we have to base it off that.

What is the toughest calls you guys have to make? Like, what, is it goals that are tough? Or is it the hits, the fast hits? Like you're kind of like. I would say you can miss a hit. Like if you guys, if we make a wrong call on a hit or if we make a wrong judgment call on a hit, it can slide by. Or, you know, there's supplemental discipline that can take care of the suspension or something. But at the end of the day, if you miss a goal, that's going to make or break in officials career, right? As soon as you miss a goal, you know, sometimes that sticks with that official for their life or something, right? And that's a fine line to walk, isn't it? Oh, for sure.

Yeah. I mean, when we instruct clinics and when we instruct guys at camps to, you know, up-and-comers and stuff, the biggest thing we preach is you can't miss goals. The most important thing is a goal in a game and you have to be able to be in position to make that call. So it does put a lot of pressure on us, but at the end of the day, most, you know, I'd say of 100 goals, maybe five or six are questionable, right? So, you know, take those odds into consideration as well. but I would say the goals are definitely the most important part of the game to get right.

So your ref in WHL, that's it? No, so I actually do, it's called CIS. It's U-Sports now. Okay, yeah, U-Sports, yeah. So the Golden Bears? Golden Bears, yeah. Oh, yeah. Actually, I got the chance to do the U-Sport Nationals this year down in Lethbridge.

No kidding. How is that? That was really cool. I would say that hockey is, you know, when you get two good teams, I would say it's better than Western League hockey sometimes. You get guys that have graduated from Western League and, you know, the U of A is like an all-star team, U of S is really good. That's probably the biggest rivalry that I do.

Do ref is the U of A versus U of S. Those games are wild. But, yeah, that hockey is phenomenal. And at nationals, you get the top eight teams at it And it's the speed of it and, you know, how crisp. But it's like at the end of day, it's not junior anymore, right? They're men. They're 21 to 32 years old.

So some of them go play pro and come back and play or whatever. So, yeah, that league's really good. But then I do do HHL as well. Senior AAA, which I believe they said they folded this year. Yeah, senior AAA in Alberta is. is folded, so I do... Well, actually in this... In Saskatchewan, I don't know.

Yeah. It's really taking a kicking. Yeah. So not sure what's going to happen to that, but then, and a little bit of ACAC hockey as well. Oh, okay, yeah, yeah. So you'd be doing like Spruce...

No, sorry, like Spruce Grove, that kind of thing? In Emmettin, we take care of Camrose Grove, Drain Valley, White Court. Oh, yeah, yeah, there's... Short Park. Where else is up there? We do come out to Lloyd and Bonneville a little bit,

So, yeah. And that would keep you busy then? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm usually doing... How many games you ref in the winter? I mean, ballpark. Yeah, usually a month. It's usually between 8 and 12 a month.

So it really doesn't seem like a lot, but at the end of the day, when you think there's only four weekends, bulk of the games are on those weekends and the odd weekday games. So two games a weekend, and then the odd scattered in throughout the week. So especially with a full-time job,

there's not much time for anything. So here's a question for you then. How do you make the jump to the next level? I mean, obviously, you've got to be good. I think everybody gets that. But how do you get to where, if you can do reffing full-time, I assume that's what you're trying to do. Eventually, yeah.

How do you get to the next level? And obviously, revving on the big stages is going to help, right? Because I assume you're getting, I assume refs get scouted, and maybe you can talk a little bit about that. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I think the biggest difference with us compared to, like, player or something is usually we're on our own right we don't have agents talking on our behalf we have to kind of make those relationships to better ourselves we have to you know be in good standings with

our leagues we do we have to be in good standings with you know the people that assign our hockey right to make sure they're giving us those games but then when you are doing those games you got to make sure that you know you're going out there and doing the best you can so that when there is that spot available, then your name's in contention for it. So it's so, I'd say the biggest thing with officials, it's all timing, who's retiring, where there's spots available, people are willing to move or stuff. So with, for me, I'd say the biggest thing is just like, keep working out, keep getting in good shape and staying at the peak level. And eventually, you know, you'll get the odd better list. Keep getting different assignments and stuff. And then kind of go

from there. So it's so much of a lot of it is who you know and who's in your back pocket and who who likes you and everything. I got a couple questions that come out of there then. So when a rething position comes open, do you apply for it like a job? No. No. So it's kind of weird.

So like every year basically every league looks at their roster who's returning and what spots are available. And then they have a list of these are the guys that would be. capable, who do we like kind of thing. So in Emmettin, I'm part of the, or it's called the senior committee, so we make the decisions for all the local hockey. So major AAA, junior B, senior A, senior double A and ACAC and ACHL linesmen. So we kind of, every year we look at who's retiring, who's moving, and then see how many spots are available and then take a look at our roster. And all throughout the years, you know, everyone gets supervised, everyone gets seen.

and then you kind of look at that roster and be like, I think these three or four people would fill that spot the best. And then, you know, you bring them into training camp, or not training camp, but exhibition games and, you know, go watch them and make sure that they're capable of doing it. Why linesmen and not the main official? I get that all the time.

I mean, it's the way the officiating side works, it's weird is usually when you get to that elite level, you have to kind of pick which side you're not which side but which job you're going to do I guess when I was living in in Lloyd here I was actually you know I was reffing mid to AAA reffing junior B and senior while linesing it at the same time but here there's not as many as officials to hockey so you kind of got to do that but once you get to Emmettin there's such a there's such a good group of officials there that you know some have been ref some usually about that midget triple A level you kind of have to decide or it's this

decided for you if you're a better referee in linesmen and then you just go with it so for me growing up in Lloyd I eventually had to move to Emmington I knew I'd be able to get in better as a linesman there I'd done a couple tournaments in there in Emmettin while I was still living here so they knew who I was yeah they knew how good how good of the linesmen I was so they were able to you know when I moved up what leagues I could do and thankfully I you know I was continue to do an AJ once this soon as I moved up there and stuff so um it's also being six four and you know 220 pounds you you're almost suited better as a as a linesman right nowadays it's not as important but uh you know it's kind of it's kind of a you're almost told yeah i you know

you make the decision as well so i think eventually like now i'm at the point where you know i might transition into some roughing starting at the you know go back to them you know maybe maybe mid-a-Midget AAA levels or in junior B.E. And get back into roughing some hockey as well. But at the end of the day, it's getting busier with me in the other leagues I'm doing. I'm doing more and more games. So will I have time for that? Who knows?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Here's a question. In the off-season, I mean, you've been on the ice with, I mean, the dub, the U-sport Nationals. Yeah, right? I believe you've done the Royal Bank Cup, which is the Nationals for Junior A hockey. That is very good hockey. Yeah. So what do you do in the off season?

Do you refs or is it just on you, right? Athletes today, man, they are busy with what they, how they train dry land. They're always on the ice trying to get better. The things they eat and put in their body, right? Like it is impressive. Oh, for sure. What do you guys have to do? Because, I mean, you can't be just a slow guy out there, right?

You got to be able to move. You've got to be able to get up to the lines. Yeah. And you're wrapping some of the best hockey in the country. What do you guys do to stay at that level? Yeah, I'd say for us, it's more, honestly, at the end of the year, we're so exhausted. I know it sounds like cliche, like, oh, the players are exhausted too and stuff. But we, for me, I love just airing my gear out after that last game,

zipping it up and throwing it in the closet for, you know, two, three months. Okay. I still work out and stuff and, you know, stay in shape and, you know, do little things to keep my legs going and, you know, stay in that hockey mindset. But usually I don't, I try not to skate anymore, right? I used to, you know, when I was up and coming and not that I'm not up and coming, but, you know, when I was younger, I would, you know, skate, you know, once a month or something or go out and do a couple camps and stuff. But nowadays, it's more of just relaxing and enjoying the time at home because, you know, you. you know, as soon as September hits, it's back to that grind of traveling and, you know, not being at home and not seeing your wife for, you know, a couple times or a couple days in a row or something and stuff.

So you kind of cherish that time away from the rink. You don't do, you don't rep like spring hockey or, I don't know. No, I used to, yeah, I used to actually when I was in Lloyd here, I used to do, that's when they first started that. Was it the border stars or something? Yeah, border stars, yeah. I would go do that, but honestly, it's like walking into the rink in shorts and flip-flops. It's like, I would have way rather be in a different place than in the rink in summer, right? So it's, it's, it almost, I enjoy not being at the rink and being disengaged because it gets me excited to get back to the ring.

To get back to, yeah, right? So it's like, you know, you go through the year, you get through January and February, you know, it's like minus 30, you're traveling and it's snowstorms and you're just like, God, is this season over yet? But then, you know, it hits March, April. and it's playoffs, right? So you get excited and, you know, it's sunny and you're driving to the rink and it's a big game, it's playoffs and you get excited. And then all of a sudden it's like April, end of April and like beginning of May and you're like, oh, God, it's this season over yet, right?

But at that time, it's so hard to get like that because the hockey is so good at that time, right? And then summer hits you relax and then you just start back in the spring or fall, I guess. What is the... Hmm. I think I want, what is the craziest atmosphere you've ever been a part of? Like, just like you're sitting in there, you're like, holy frick, is this place going off right now? Three really come to my mind. Okay. First one, I'd say it would be Prince Albert this year.

You were repping the finals this year. I was lucky enough to get selected to do finals this year up in PA. I was actually up in PA, I'd say, I think I was five or six times this year for playoffs. Emmettin finally made the playoffs this year and I didn't even get to do a game in their whole rink, but honestly, I couldn't have been happier to be in a better rink. Have you been in that rink before? Years ago. Yeah, years ago when Wade was playing for Brandon.

Gotcha. That's how long ago it was. If you've been in that rink, I think it's actually the smallest rink in the Western League, but the atmosphere in the playoffs is something I've honestly never felt before. It's you stepped on the ice to do your opening laps before everyone is on there and like you could feel the noise in your body. PA would come out and it was honestly like your hair on your back of your neck was standing up and like you felt that like your heartbeat was racing because it was so loud and it just pierced you. But and then, you know, they would score and it was just absolutely wild. That would be, I would say that's probably the most outrageous atmosphere I've been in.

another really cool one was my first I'd say biggest game of my career I actually got the chance to lines for Connor McDavid for a game that was back when the Oilers rookies used to play the Golden Bears in an exhibition game so it was after the year that McDavid got drafted to the Oilers and he's playing living in Emmetton everyone's all hyped up about the Oilers and everything right so that assignment was really cool and they actually they used to always play it at the U of A rink with all the hype they actually played at Rexall that was he played his first year there um so that was

I went out and I think there was 14,000 people there at that game or something and I was so nervous skating around the the opening lap it was uh you know you're just like don't fall don't fall in front of all these people right but um that was actually how was how was Connor McDaniel on ice. Seeing him on TV, he looks fast, but honestly, being on the ice, he's so good at, like, you know, I almost got stuck a couple of, I'm just watching him, but he's so good at just, like, following the play, kind of floating around, and then all of a sudden, like, the puck

comes to him, and he's, like, bang, gone. And I remember one play, I think a D-Man chipped it out, and he was just kind of hovering on the neutral zone, and him and the D-man took off at the same time, and he just literally blew by him. in on a breakaway and it was like I was just like amazed I was like holy crap this guy's fast but yeah that was it was really cool I don't know if it's cool just being out there with him but just being in that rink with all those people was it was really cool excuse me and then I'd say the third one is was actually this year too is uh in in Brooks actually for the

rbank or used to be called rbc but rbc they call it the NJAC now so there was no sponsor this year not sure what happened there it's called the what so they the new National Junior A Championship, so they called it the NJAC. I didn't know that. Yeah, I don't know what happened with the sponsorship, but it's above my pay grade. No, that's above all of pay grade. Yeah, so they called it the NJAC this year. I found that out this year, but I got selected to do the final, which was awesome,

and Brooks was in the final, and that town is just such a hockey town, such an amazing junior A, I think it's a city, and the crowd was fun. phenomenal and to be able to be out there and Brooks actually won the final as well. So to see that in their home rank and stuff is really cool. Pardon the interruption, folks, but here is your IHD innovative question that can get you in the draw for two tickets to Ravine October 2nd. He is the hypnotist at Vic Juba, coming to Vic Chuba October 2nd. So here's your question.

How many officials are on the ice during an NHL hockey game? Nice and simple for you. You got the answer. Either send it to Sean Newman podcast at gmail.com or hit me up on Twitter, Instagram, or Facebook with the answer, and you're automatically entered into the draw. All right? Nice and simple.

Now, back to the show. What is maybe, hmm, thinking like the coolest moment you've experienced. I don't know if that's maybe like a couple ideas popped to mind, right? Like, we talk about how much refting, refs get scrutinized and players are rough on you and everything. Is there ever been a player or a coach or a fan or anyone just like make you go, that was pretty cool or nice or? I think what kind of comes to mind there is I actually, it was fortunate to get selected for when it was called the RBC here in Lloyd. Okay.

So I was Raffrey in Emmettin got selected for it that year and Just by chance that Lloyd was hosting and honestly to come back into like your hometown and To walk around the rink and see all the people that you know you grew up with their kids or You played hockey with their kids and they were a parent on the team or you know, it's a friend you've made from high school or you know a job in the city and or even someone your parents knew right and just have all those people come up to you and show interest in like kind of what you were doing and like how amazed they were at it when it's like kind of second nature to us like oh yeah just you know another tournament or you know just another game but they were just to see those people like so amazed at that and honestly it was it was so cool to talk to everyone and like just for them to

see kind of where you've come from when you know you were roughing them or they used to coach a team that you refs back in peewee or something right so that was a really cool experience and actually being with some of the guys for that tournament, they were in Lloyd walking on the rink with me because I'd almost have to stop every 10 steps and talk to someone. You know, hockey is in Lloyd, right? Local celebrity. So I don't want to like float my own boat, but it was just that moment, that tournament really stuck out to me and, you know, my parents live here, my brothers live here.

So they were able to come out and watch a bunch of games. And it was just a really cool experience to be back where, you know, where you started and everything and be able to like for us compete on that stage really right. Talking about your start, did you in the coaching, in the reffing world, did you have a bit of a mentor or somebody who helped guide you, help, I don't know, I always look at people that helped you advance and maybe insulated you or were able to answer some tough questions or gave you some really good advice early on. Yeah.

Is there something that sticks out there? I would honestly say it's just all the guys that you refs with, right? So the way, like, we don't get to go practice, right? We don't get to, well, we could if we wanted to, but we don't go out and just practice refing. We don't go out and, you know, practice this and that with our game. When we practice, it's during a game. So, you know, coming into a dressing room after a game or after a period and, you know,

when I first started, like an older guy that's been roughing for 20 years, you know, tell you a tip or something, right? like that, right? But I'd say, you know, when I first started, Dionne Pollard, he's well-known referee here. He always pushed for me. He always, I remember going up into Emmettin, my, I think was my second year in the AJ, and like, he always traveled up into Emmettin to ref up there, and, you know, he fought for me to go and do a game in the North Final up there in my second year. And, you know, he fought for me to go to a tournament in that zone and stuff. And he really pushed me forward. But honestly, all the guys, it's kind of different out here.

Some people don't know is all the referees are assigned for junior B and senior in this zone, but then the referees got to pick their linesmen. So, you know, you got to be in good books with certain referees, and they always called you to go do games, and they would always help you out and, you know, give you tips and tricks and stuff. And you honestly just take everything that everyone says to you and kind of just go with it. if you don't agree with it, you just kind of nod your head and say, yeah, I'll try it, and then you try it out. If you don't like it, you don't use it.

And it's such a unique group that we all just kind of work together and try to, as much as we're competing to, you know, get finals and get different leagues and make that next step. At the end of the day, we're all a team out on the ice. And if we're not all performing at our best, then we're not the best. So if we can help out our partner and, you know, give them a tip on how to be better, then that's, you know, That's what we do. What's next for Mr. DeAnne Fosser? What's next?

Honestly, we just got the email last week to get our training camp going here right away. So I can't believe how fast it's coming. But this year, just keep going at it. I'll be back in Emmetton Ruffing. So just build off last year, honestly. Last year was probably the most successful year of, pad officiating. So it might be, you know, it might be worse this year.

You know, for us it's tough because, you know, you get these tournaments and stuff, but you only get these tournaments when they're out in your part of the country, right? So sometimes, you know, you get a run of, you know, three or four tournaments in a row, and then you go a year or two without one, right? So it might seem like you're not doing as good, but at the end of the day, there's just not the opportunities. So honestly, just keep pushing and, you know, keep strong. driving and for me personally I'd like to get into some like international tournaments or something

like that. I think that's probably the first next big step for me. You ever thought about going, I don't know how refing works. So do you clear this up for me? Have you ever thought about going over to Europe and repping? Or is that not enough and you'd still need something more? Yeah, it's been in my mind, but the issue is I've been successful here. so it's not like I need to escape to go somewhere different right so that's kind of my thoughts that like I've heard of guys going over there being successful and everything I think

Brent Riber's from Lloyd this area he's I think worked in the Swiss league or something for 10 or so years or whatever but yeah um honestly it's it's been in my mind but it's never been something I've ever like thought of to go and do um it's obviously it's a big change in everything right yeah and and again it's for officials you You have to know people, right? We don't have someone like, hey, you can't call up your agent and be like, hey, I want to go ref here, get me a contract, right? So from that standpoint, it's pretty tough.

It's just interesting because I know as hockey players, right? Like you just go through the stages and then, you know, your options are, you know, North America, pro, semi-pro, senior back here now. You can go over to Europe, right? There's just so many avenues. For sure. Curious on refs because, I mean, those leagues need refs too, right? Yeah.

And if you're really, really good at it, 100%. Then maybe there's the opportunity. But like you say, you don't have, you're doing all your negotiating yourself. Yeah. And really, when it kind of goes back to what I was saying is like,

if a league doesn't need anyone, they're not going to bring anyone over to do that, right? Because usually when you go do that leagues, you know, they'll pay for your living or, you know, they have to pay for you to come and stuff. And, you know, it's a big expense. So, I mean, there's obviously been some successful stories of that,

but it's no different than, you know, in American League or NHL, right? They got to pay for you. your visas to come down. They've got to pay for this and that for you. And, you know, it's a big investment for them. So it's tough, tough for them to just, hey, yeah, come do it, right? So they got to look at, it's more, at the end of day, hockey is much of a game it is.

It is a business as well. I look forward to seeing with the next couple years. Because I remember when you first lines our game and I believe I talked to you at that time and you were trying to do it and I was like, wow, it'll be interesting to watch. Now you see how far you've come from then. Oh, for sure. Doing senior hockey and home on, no knock on senior hockey and home on. I think it's spectacular.

But to be in the W.HL and doing national championships and reffing Connor McDavid, which that's pretty cool, right? Yeah. It'll be interesting to see what the next few years bring in. If there's an opportunity to jump a level and carry on. I've kept you in here now for, I think, a little over an hour. So I thought I'd get to a couple quick hitters before I let you get out of here. I always ask if you had a time machine, where would you take it?

What would you go of you? Oh, man. Where would you, where's on your bucket list of things you would have loved to have seen? Who, honestly, oh man, I don't even know. That's a, that's a deep question. I've been stumping a lot of people with that lately. Honestly, what first came to my mind, and I don't know if it's because you see highlights of it all the time, it'd be like the 1972 Summit series.

Oh, yeah. It was 72? I think it was 72, right? With Henderson. With Henderson scoring the goal, but not even seeing that goal, but like going with the team to Russia and like seeing how crazy the fans were over there. And like, I remember reading a book and how like how wild it was for them to go and see that. But like just going and seeing like the bird's eye view of like how those games played out back then and stuff.

And like seeing how different the hockey was back then I think would be really cool to see. But yeah, that's that's a deep question. I'm going to tie on to that one a little bit more. If you could ref. One game. Yeah, one game. Would it still be that, would it be that game specifically? I don't think it would be that game specifically.

I think it would, I think, yeah, I don't know. Honestly, I think it would just be a game in the NHL just to experience the atmosphere of an NHL game. Yeah. But another one would be like the, was it the Boston? and fight in this crowd and stuff. And, like, couldn't even imagine being on the ice when, like, players are climbing into the crowd and hitting people their shoes.

I always think of when Domi pulled the guy into the penalty box and starts thomping on him as a ref, you're going on. 100%. So, yeah, you don't, we don't see much, like, behind the scenes of, you know, stuff that happens like that, right? So if you could pick, uh, three officials?

Three, how many of you? It's a format system, right? Most of the stuff. I do now as four men yet. So if you could have three other refs going with it, it can be anyone. Would it be like Carrie Frazier,

pull him out of, or do you have a dream team? I would say probably linesman would be, my partner would be Ray Scampanillo. I just remember seeing him and I've read his book and I don't think that guy

missed a single game due to injury or anything. And I remember in that book he got his finger cut, he went and got stitches and came back in or whatever. But Bill McCannie, He always stood out to me. I remember he refed the 2010 game in the Olympic finals, Canada, US.

And then I would say even, oh, frick, what's his name? I just drew a blank. Oh, man, why can't I remember his name? Who's the guy who skates up and has the mic and goes, it's no goal? Yeah, I can't think of his name right now. That's the guy you're thinking of? Yeah.

Oh, man, I just had his name. and then I said Bill McCurry. That guy would be awesome. Yeah, 100%. I think, and I've heard stories because obviously we've met some NHL guys, NHL officials, and, you know, he start telling stories and stuff, and they say he's just like a goofball and, like, just, and honestly, like, when I see him referee, that's,

I like to be like that. Like, I like to have fun on the ice at the end of the day, right? I like to joke around with players. And like I said earlier, as a linesman, you're involved with the players a lot more. So, honestly, you get to know them. almost on a personal level, right? So it's actually cool.

I've seen your posts through the podcast and stuff, and all the players you've had is, I think I've pretty much refed almost every one of them. Yeah. And to be able to ref all those guys and like, you know,

some of them I've worked with at the golf course and stuff, right? So you know them at a personal level and then you go out and you see them competing and, you know, they're a different person on the ice and stuff, but it's such a cool aspect and just have fun.

you know, at the end of day, we're all humans out there having fun, right? Yeah, playing a game that everybody enjoys. Yeah, as serious as it can be at times, and obviously you need to know when to pick your battles and pick your times to, you know, be serious or laugh around. At the end of day, if you're not having fun doing it, then what's the point of doing it? Yeah.

Yeah. If you could party with one celebrity, who would you pick? Oh, geez. Um, oh, man. Celebrity, hey? movie star or what anyone hey? I don't know. I don't even know.

I usually leave it so open-ended and then I had, this will be the fourth time in a row I talk about Kenny Morrison, but I had, I started to have to like, I just left it open. That way celebrity could be anyone. But if you don't make it specific, old Kenny had me in getting me tongue-tied

because I had to like drill down and give them exactly. Oh, man. So I'm saying a celebrity. I can be an NHL superstar. It can be Hollywood. My brain when I think celebrity, I always think a Hollywood. Hollywood. Yeah, for sure. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that for you. Honestly, I look at

like, when I think celebrity, I always think of like music artists and stuff. I don't know why his name keeps coming in my head, but I just because I think I just went to him last weekend, but Garth Brooks, I don't think it would be a crazy party. But one thing with him is his band has been together for like 30 years or something, 25 years. So like, just, like, just, to see like what they do on a day-to-day basis would be a lot of fun yeah and like it's probably seems pretty lame to say that but man those guys probably party harder than any of us could imagine so yeah i don't know i think he's just stuck in my head from seeing him last weekend yeah but garth yeah garth would be a guy to go all with yeah so who is the you said macdavid

but if we were to scratch from mcdavid off who is the most talented hockey player you've seen while refing hmm i'd probably say I'd probably say, I'd probably say, Cal McCar. Oh, yeah. He, I refed him. He actually, I think he won the MVP

at the 2016 RBC here in Lloyd. And then I think he actually won it the next year as well. But hands down, most talented, most, like, composed player I've ever seen. Obviously, it helped that he was, like, on the best junior A team I've ever seen, too,

with Brooks. With Brooks. The program they have going there is phenomenal. But he, I remember doing him in the finals that year, and he just would like, in the AJ finals. And he would honestly just, like, as soon as he gets to puck, he just, everything, like, slows down. And he just, like, bang, bang. And, like, every time he's on the ice, there's a scoring chance. And actually to see him, you know, succeed and get to the NHL level so fast from, you know, junior, A hockey in Alberta.

It was really cool to see. And, like, you know, it's happening more and more from that level. I think there's just so much exposure and, you know, scouts and stuff get the scouting jobs. But, yeah, he honestly was a game changer and probably the quietest guy I have ever officiated. Like, never said a word or anything. It was crazy. But yeah, definitely probably the best player I've ever seen on the ice. Scratch off, Rogers Place.

Yeah. What is the nicest rink you've ever gone to? Ooh. It's a good one. I'd say Junior A level I'd say Brooks is probably one of the top in the AJ Just you know state-of-the-art facility Western League

Nice as TAY There's so many nice ones Like you look at you know Calgary like this the saddle dome Obviously it's you know it's an older rink But it's still an NHL facility You know Red Deer has a really nice ring for junior A hockey but I actually had a chance last year to go out to do two games out in the queue on like a program,

a camp weekend and the Wasson rink out there, I can't think, pretty sure that's what it was called. It was like honestly like a pro rink and it was so cool to see some of those rinks out there. But yeah, there's a bunch I've been to, but definitely been to some dives as well. Some character rinks, that's for sure. What is the most random place that reference? is taking. Yeah, I actually made a note in my phone of this one that comes to mind. So I think it was like back in 2009, 10, or 11, all those years blur together now that it's so long ago. But I remember we went out. I was with two older guys. It was a senior, I think it was a senior D provincial

finals in Saskatchewan. So it was in Loosland, Saskatchewan. And I don't know if have you ever been to that rink out there. It's... Can never say I've been to Loose Land, Saskatchewan. It's, but you're a shout out to guys like Joel Bud who came from Luseland. Yeah, 100% and that rink is probably the smallest rink I've ever been into and probably the most fun I've ever had in the game.

The circles in the end zone are like pretty sure they're like four feet smaller on the whole diameter and stuff and like the hash marks were like two inches on the outside of the circles but like they were touching the board so like the guys lining up for face offs were actually like standing in the circle right but I mean

they had like that place just absolutely packed Like senior hockey in Saskatchewan is... Unreal. Yeah, especially in those small towns, right? And I just, that game, like, I don't think I've ever been to Lusland other than for that game. And it was so cool to see that. Yeah. Final one.

We do the game, you got to sign, trade, and buy one out. Okay. You being a Vancouver Canucks fan. I left Pedersen off. Yeah. I'm going to give you Retan, Horvatt, and Barci. Okay. Sign trade and what?

Sign trade and buy one oh. Sign. Horbat, you said, right? Mm-hmm. Trade Berci and buy out. Vertan and Fertanin, whatever you call it. I don't know. I might be tortured in the name too, right?

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of his, but that's... O' Rattan? Yeah. Jake Frittan? Yeah. Isn't Barci's the one that's always hurt? Yeah, he's kind of my kind of player, though.

lady gritty right on well i hope you enjoyed this i really enjoyed having you on i hope it ain't the last time because i look forward to seeing where you go because i think at some point here you're going to be uh making a living off of this and uh probably talking to a lot more famous people than i certainly am no it's honestly it's i'm super happy i was able to and you know kind of share that side of the game that a lot of people don't see and yeah i mean whoever thought I thought would have be 12 years ago that when I started reffing, I'd be at this point. And, you know, I would never have been at this level as a player.

And to go and do the games that I've done as able to do as a referee and everything, it's, it's, I'm so fortunate. I'm so lucky. I'm so blessed that I've been able to. And, you know, to come and share some of those stories is an honor. Well, and now you can rub it in on your brothers, too, that you're the first one to come on the podcast. Yeah, you'll have to bug the others to get them on.

Maybe we'll have to do like a brothers podcast. Brothers podcast? Yeah, yeah. Maybe even throwing my sister in there. She's always seemed to be left out. But yeah, it's having them as brothers and stuff. It's switching to, honestly switching to refing was I got a lot of flack from the older brothers. And even my dad too, right?

I remember being at the rink and dad yelling at the refs again, right? And so, you know, to be a ref in a family of, in a hockey family and stuff, it's not very, I don't think it's usually... Do you get teased a little bit? A little bit, but I think they've seen kind of where I've gone, and they've kind of shut up a little bit. That's awesome. Well, best of luck here in the upcoming season,

and look forward to having you on again. Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Hey, guys. Thanks for tuning in. That was a lot of fun sitting across from Dion. Wish him the best of luck. Hope to see them in the show soon enough so we can heckle one of our own.

Next week on the podcast is Reed Wilkins from Inside Sports 630 Chad and Eminton. He does the Oilers post game show. I had an absolute blast with him. I think you guys are really going to enjoy it. And here's a little sneak peek at it. So enjoy them. We'll catch up to you next week. Well, the Oilers have done like a complete overhaul again.

Sort of. Well, coach and GM for important positions, yes. If you would ask me personally probably five, six years ago, a guy I would have brought in would have been Ken Holland. Now he's been on the job for however many months. Have you noticed anything in your opinion that you're like, oh man, I don't mind that? Well, he traded luch.

I mean, I know that's an obvious answer, but I never thought that would have happened. And not to actually, and he got a player despite last year who should be productive. I mean, he didn't trade Looch for Louis Erick, right, or a fourth-round draft pick because some other team decided they had to stay above the cap floor or something.

That he actually pulled that trade off was pretty impressive to me. I think some of his other moves are interesting and have some potential.