Shaun Newman Podcast - SNP Archives #17 - Michael Stonhouse

Episode Date: March 31, 2021

Born in 1948 he is originally from a farm outside of Red Deer. He is a self proclaimed red neck from central Alberta who talks bootlegging, suicide, communism & Jesus... Did I mention he's a pastor - essentially he leaves it all on the table.    Let me know what you think Text me! 587-217-8500

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So buckle up, because there we go. It is September 13th, 2020. Today I'm joined by Michael Staunhaus. So thank you, sir, for sitting in. You're welcome. Let's start with where you're originally from, because we were just chit-chatting about where you grew up, and you're not born and raised from Lloyd Minster,

although you've been here in a long time. Where are you originally from? Well, I'm originally from central Alberta, a place called Pine Lake, and for many people, that will ring a bell. because, oh, I guess it's probably 15 years ago. There was a terrible tornado. Mistar farm by a mile,

but it destroyed the trailer park of some good friends of mine. So anyway, so I started life on a farm outside of Red Year at Pine Lake. My grandfather had come to Central Alberta in 1903-04 in homestead at east of Stettler in the Bath of Gatsby area. and then after he was married, he moved to Pine Lake in 1920. So we're not really an old timer there, but we've been there for a long time. So I'm a redneck central Alberta, whether I like it or not. I come by it honestly.

From there, my brother was a severe asthmic, so we moved off the farm in 54. What year were you born? 48. 48. Okay. Yeah, so I just turned 72. I just turned 72. Okay.

Yeah, only a few days ago. Okay. Well, happy belated birthday then. Thank you. So we moved to Medicine Had. That's where I did most of my growing up years, went to school there, and then went to university in Edmonton and then worked as a social worker for three years. And then from there, he went to seminary, and then I've been ordained as a pastor for

43 years. Well, let's back that up for a second. Sure. What was growing up in Medicine Hat like back in the late 50s, early 60s? Well, Medicine Out was like an oasis in the desert. It still is. I mean, it's, you know, everyone else can have storms and winter. And Medicine Out actually, you know, often is free from all that.

Actually, in some years they have a Christmas or a New Year. golf tournament kind of thing. So I gloried there. I lived in just on the outskirts of town, so I spent tons of time out in the prairies, exploring, going up and down the coolies, building forts, rafting on the river, doing all those kind of thing that country kids do, avoiding rattlesnakes, if I could, I never actually saw one, but I knew where they lived. digging up bison bones, looking for fossils. That's one of the primary fossil areas of the world. But I was sort of a nerdy book.

Nerdy Kid, books, and The Out of Door is not really big into the social life, but very active in other things, community organizations, leadership roles kind of things, very active in community service. So, yeah, my mom was a teacher and my dad was the municipal administrator for the rural areas around there. So it meant that I got away with nothing at all. I mean, when your mom is one of the local school mams, she would find out about my missed and meaners long before I even got home.

And so I'd have to pay for it twice. I'd get the punishment at school and get it and gain at home. But I was somewhat of a community activist. I'd been involved in junior Kwanis and Scouts and Red Cross youth. And I was the community youth worker for a bit, working on the street with kids and trying to help kids. You know, I was always really involved. So in some ways, becoming a social worker

and then a pastor was just a continuation of all the same, you know, more of the same. Always active in the church, you know, right from knee high to a grasshopper. Yeah. So that's what drew you then to becoming a pastor? Yeah. My parents were always very active helping people, and I was as well, and very active in the church right from the get-go.

And the incredible thing, I mean, though interesting, enough, for the first 20-some years, Christianity was more theoretical for me than practical because I didn't have a relationship with God, with Jesus. I didn't even know it was possible. So it was more sort of a cultural thing, an inherited thing that I got from my parents. So it wasn't until my early 20s, which is interesting because by then I was, into, I was at university and managed with a lot of hard work to flunk out of university. Managed to flunk out so badly so that they told me I couldn't come back for at least three years. What did you do?

Well, put it this way, I had a 3.3 average out of nine. And when you consider one of my marks was a six, you can guess what some of the others were. So what were you doing that? Well, all sorts of stuff. I had extracurricular activities to boot. I was in a singing group. I was volunteering for different university organizations. I was active in the church.

Oh, and I never mentioned, I was one of the campus bootleggers. Campus bootleggers. Oh, yeah, because I was of age and most of the guys in residence weren't. And so I supplied booze for them every Friday and Saturday night at cost, mind you. I wasn't making a profit out of it. But so, and I was drinking too. I mean, that was, you know, when I had getting booze for other guys, I had to get some for myself too. So you partied your university degree, well, not degree.

You partied so hard that essentially they asked you to leave. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah, so that was the year I was supposed to graduate. That was my third year of university. So they told me... Your third year university, you went down the road of not showing up to classes or what have you. Yeah, and yeah. What was it about your third year?

I would think by your third year it would be the opposite way. Well, it was sort of going downhill. I mean, well, and that was my first year in residence, and so here I am, you know, buddy with all the guys. And basically one of my problems was I was having to come to terms with myself and I didn't like what I saw. So drinking and being a good old boy was a way of escaping. And well, so was all my activities that I was involved in.

You know, if you're busy, you don't have to look at yourself. What was it about looking at yourself that you didn't like? Oh, well, I did a pretty good job of screwing things up. As a teenager, I tried committing suicide a couple times, you know. Yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah.

I hate to pry, but why got you to that point? Well, I shared this actually in my sermon today is, for the long, time I thought you had to, well, with my parents, I thought I had needed to earn their love. And I thought, same thing with God, that I needed to earn God's love. Because my parents were old-style English, praise was sort of a, praise was sort of, you know, few and far between. It was, you know, every time it was, well, you could have done better, you know, I came home with a 95% that'd say, well, where did the other 5% go? And my younger brother, younger, he was always smarter than I was.

So, you know, why can't you be like your brother? So my sense was I never measured up. I was never good enough. I was always screwing up in some way or another. So, you know, that after a while sort of takes its toll. and so I was convinced that I was a screw up, that I was always making a mess of something or other. And, you know, nothing, nothing, you know, totally big,

but, you know, relationships would go sour or I'd mess up on this or that. And I was my worst critic. Yeah, but to try and take your life because, like that, once again, I, uh, I have a hard time getting to that. Like, I just, to me, that seems like zero to a hundred and million miles an hour to go from living your life to trying to end it, I guess. Well, it's, it's, I mean, I've, over the years as a pastor, well, even as a social worker, of, of, um, of, um, council lots of people who were suicidal.

Um, and it's where you, where you feel totally alone, where, uh, you don't think you've got any resources. And the only way out, the only light at the end of the tunnel, is to take your own life. And, you know, that's how people who are suicidal often feel is that that's the only way out. I mean, it's sick, it's stupid, but that's the reality. And a sad thing is, I mean, for me it was somewhat continuing for a while, but I mean, for some people, it's just a spur of the moment thing. sadly a further moment thing can be deadly

you know for me I mean for me there was sort of a self-hatred that was there for quite a while but fortunately well I I used to I got irritated with myself

even you know after I failed at it I said you know you can't even do that right how's that for a perverse sense of humor but um yeah so then What changes? You deal with this for obviously quite a few years. Yeah. So what changed was basically, well, several things. One was when I moved to Edmonton, I became involved in a singing group. And one of the things that I realized, I mean, in Medicine Hat, I was sort of an outsider.

I was this community involved guy, but I wasn't really involved socially very much. I wasn't dating, I didn't have a girlfriend, any of that kind of stuff. And medicine had at the time, like a lot of small communities, you know, a coupling up happened really early. You know, I don't know what your hometown was like, but ours, you know, by grade 7, you were going steady and that's pretty well-defined you, you know. If you didn't have a girlfriend or a boyfriend, then you were sort of a loser. And that's, you know, so anyway, I came to Edmonton, went to university, and found a group of people that really accepted me.

Like-minded people. Yeah, like-minded people. And furthermore, we're sort of community-minded who wanted to make a difference in the world. So that was sort of the start of things. and then from there I sort of graduated, well, I mean, it was part way through that when I flunked out of university. And as they say in AA, you know, I realized I was powerless to help myself that I needed help. And so I discovered God or he discovered me. And that made all the difference in the world.

I realized that, hey, you're a somebody in God's eyes, that you're valued, that you're precious. that you don't have to perform. Even if you blow it, you're still valued by God. And that was like a total revelation for me. I had never encountered that before. And so from there, I mean, I've been living that for, that was back in 1970s. So, you know.

So you flunk at a university. And you just walk into the church one day and you just start, like, how? Break that down a little. bit better. Yeah, so I flunked out of university, worked at various jobs, then three years later went back. But meanwhile, by the way, I had my conversion and God had done lots of work in me. You know, when I went, when I flunked out, they said, you know, they said, you know, you can't come back for at least three years. And before you can come back, you're going to have to take

some psychological testing because we think we're all screwed up. you have to see a shrink and you'll have to take some academic testing to see whether you are really fit for university or not. So anyway, so I came back, did all that stuff and they said, well, we don't see no reason why you shouldn't do well. So I went, I finished my degree and then worked as a social worker for three years and then went on and got a master's degree. So in spite of flunking out of university, I went on to do some pretty good stuff. You say in the three years you have your conversion, you grew up going to church. Yeah.

And heavily involved in church, right? Yeah, yeah. Was it always Anglican? Yeah, it was, yeah. Though in Edmonton, when I was involved there, it was Anglican and Pentecostal. I went to both churches. Okay. Yeah.

And so in the first 20-some years of your life, it was just kind of showing up, reading the book. Well, it was, I kept on thinking, feeling, especially as a teenager, I'd sit in church and say, you know, there's something they're not talking about. Something that is sort of the background, but they're not spelling it out. and what I eventually realized was that that was Jesus and that was a relationship with Jesus. But the assumption was, and this is actually an assumption in the Anglican Church that's been there right from the beginning, the assumption in the Anglican Church is that everyone who goes to church

knows Jesus has a relationship with God. That's the assumption. It goes right back to the Reformation, was that you take that for granted. Well, by the time that got to me, it wasn't being spelled out. You couldn't take it for granted. And so there was lots of people who were basically cultural Christians. They were Christians because that was their family.

Heritage. Yeah. So it's something you grew up with, but unfortunately for many people they just grew out of as well. You know, because it wasn't real to you. You know? I mean, in fact, one of the Roman Catholic popes, said, you know, we've made a good job of making people Catholic, but not a good job of making them Christians. You know, sadly to say the church isn't what saves you. The church can be an

absolute, I was going to say asshole, but it can be a real bugger. It can be, you know, it can, it can be the worst place. I mean, I've worked for them for many years, so I know. So it's not, it's not the church that saves you. It's God or it's Jesus, but I grew up just, I mean, it was important to me, it was part of my life, part of my family upbringing, but it wasn't real. I mean, I didn't, I kept on thinking, there's something more to this. It's like, yeah, well, you play hockey, right? Yeah. So it's like saying, okay, there's those guys out there skating,

but there obviously is a coach somewhere. You know, they wouldn't know how to make all their scoring plays and do so well if there wasn't someone coaching them and sort of orchestrating the game. Well, so I was playing the game, but I didn't know who the coach was. You know, and a coach can make all the difference in the world, whether you'd, you know, play the game well or not, and, well, in fact, whether you even want to want to play the game.

So for me, it was, I didn't know the coach. I didn't have a relationship with the coach. And so he wasn't in my life orchestrating things, directing things, you know. So then, I don't know how to phrase this. So then you figure this out. What is the most? then that changes things? Well, is there such a thing?

Yeah, well, there was two things. One was, when I was with the singing group, living in a co-op host with eight other guys, and one of the guys, a guy by the name of Rolf, had by society's standards everything going from. thing going from. Blonde, blue-eyed, six-foot-three, well-off, a hit with the girls, played lead guitar in our singing group, you know, working on a degree in chemistry. I mean, like, you know,

he's got it made. He's got it made. But inside, he was like a coiled spring, spring. You know, I mean, he was one of my roommates, and he was, you could tell that inside he was not at peace. was just ready to, Pooh. Anyway, he went away for a few weeks on a construction job and came back and

I could tell something was different. He was at peace. And I said, Rolf, what happened? And he said, it's Jesus. I've given him my life. I mean, he didn't even have to say it because I could tell there was such a change

in his life. So that was one big thing. And so several nights later, it was late at night. We'd been out sitting on the doorstep talking. It was a good old-fashioned prairie thunderstorm. And the thunderstorm, the clouds went away, and the stars came out. And I had a thought, well, you know, the stars are. are all there. I said, the thought I had was my life was at that, like that thunderstorm,

you know, noise, bang, you know, confusion. But then the stars came out and I realized, you know, the stars are so precise that even mariners, you know, can plot their way by it. And the thought came to me, well, that's because God's in control. And the thought came to me was, yeah, your life could be like that if God was controlled. But unlike the stars, you have to let God do that. And so right there, this was in June of 1970. I said, okay, God, whoever you are, I want you to take over. So that was a big change.

And interesting thing... Oh, no, sorry. So the interesting thing is, sorry, I'm not going to cut you off. Carry on. Sure. So, and I, there wasn't, you know, a big sort of like flash of something inside, you know, flash of light inside or warm feeling or anything like that. But I just felt that everything was okay. That, I mean, here it was. I had flunked out of university. I had a bunch of part-time jobs, but wasn't really going anywhere very fast. I just felt everything's okay. I'm looked after. It's sort of the image I love is when my kids were little

and is how I would pick them up and they would just fall asleep. Totally at peace. It goes, okay, here's dad. Everything's okay. And that's how I felt that everything's okay. I looked after. So that was in,

in June of 1970. Then the next step was later that fall is, so here I was, okay, I've given my life over to God, over to Jesus, and so I'm trying to live the Christian life and sometimes doing pretty miserably at it. By then I'm a social worker, and that was really difficult because I was working, it started off in juvenile probation with a bunch of really stupid kids, juvenile delinquents, you know, that was really trying. And then from there I went into family services. So I dealt with suicides and battered children and... Just the ugly side of the world. Oh, yeah. You know, so, I mean, I was really, I really had issues, really problems. I mean, here I am, I mean, sure, I've worked on the streets with kids, but this is a totally different thing.

So talk about a baptism by fire. So I really found that life was like a roller coaster, that at times I was doing great and times I was not. But basically, I was trying to live the Christian life in my own stream, and my own power, which is really stupid because here I'm, you're trying to be like God. Well, who can be like God without God's power? Anyway, in the fall of 70, I discovered what they call the infilling of the Holy Spirit,

which is basically asking God to God's Holy Spirit to fill you and work through you. And that made total difference to the point where people actually at work could notice a change in my life, a change in the sense, especially a change in the case, especially a change in the case, in the confidence I had, that I wasn't intimidated by the boss, I wasn't intimidated by the problems. I had a new sense of courage, of confidence, that kind of thing. And then the third part was I ended up getting pneumonia, about two and a half years into this, ended up in hospital in and out for nine weeks. When I got out, well, I'll give you background a little bit.

While I was there lying in bed in the hospital, I said to the Lord, by the way, this kind of prayer isn't necessarily the way to go. But anyway, I said, God, I'm not sure that this is what I'm supposed to continue doing. So I'd really like a sign whether I continue this or not. And I'd like a sign by Easter, please. So guess what? By I returned to work, and I think it was three weeks before Easter, I'm called into my boss's office, and he says,

well, Michael, you're a good social worker, you do a good job, you're good with the clients and with your fellow workers, but your administration stinks. We really think that you should look for another job. Okay, well, I should have seen that coming anyway. But then he goes on and says, We really think that you should enter the ministry. I mean, here is this secular guy that, as far as I knew,

didn't have a spiritual bone in his body telling me that I should be a minister. Like I'm wondering, where in the world did this come from? And then he went on and he says, and furthermore, we know that you need to go back and finish your degree before you go to seminary. So we're letting you go as a caseworker, but we want you to continue on until the end of the summer as our intake worker. So basically, I was being fired but given a new job simultaneously. So for the next three or four months, I continued on in the same office but as the intake worker instead of the caseworker. I mean, how many bosses fire you?

So that was one sort of interesting sign. I go in to see my bishop, and when I made his appointment with him, this is the bishop of Edmonton. I didn't tell him why I wanted to see him. So his secretary archers me into his office, and so he says, well, Michael, what can I do for you? And I said, well, sir, I think God is calling me into the ministry. And he stands there, we haven't even sat down yet, and starts laughing his head off. I'm thinking, so what's so funny about that? I mean, that's sort of intimidating, right?

So when he quit laughing, he said, well, Michael, I've been thinking that for years and just was wondering what was taking you so long. I mean, first of all, my boss, who's a former RCMP, He off commissioner who doesn't have a spiritual bone in his body thinking I should be a minister. And now the bishop, who's known me for years thinking I should be a minister. I'm thinking, okay, boss, are you telling me something here? So that was, you know, that's where it, you know. That's where it starts.

Yeah. So went on, finished my first degree, got my master's degree, and then 43 years of ordained ministry. We're going back to you saying people saw a change in you. Mm-hmm. Would it be safe to say up until that point you were very conflicted inside and probably very preoccupied? Yeah. Yeah. Well, and scared of my own shadow in some ways.

That authority figures, especially people like bosses, you know, that scared the wits out of me. So I was, you know, well, my father had been a very dominant person and I was afraid of my father. I mean, so it wasn't sort of natural that I would be afraid of people like that. Yeah. So the biggest change then people saw in you is almost you call it, I'm trying to paraphrase it now, giving your life to Jesus. And it lets go all the. the tension that you've been holding on to for a very long time. Yeah.

That's what they see. Yeah. Letting go of the tension and getting a new confidence that I'd never had before. I mean, even though I had in school and in community when I was, you know, growing up, I had positions of leadership in organizations. I mean, in some ways that was easy because an organization, they're sort of like-minded people, they're sort of on your wavelength. But if I had to stand up in front of my class, that was hell.

If I had to stand up and make a presentation in front of class, that was hell. And then you could spend 43 years of your life doing just that, right? Well, that's right. I mean, that's the weird thing is because, I mean, not just, standing up, you know, in a pulpit or that kind of thing, but, you know, going to city council and, you know, making a presentation before, you know, the mayor and council and, you know, sometimes really taking them to task for things, you know, I'm chair of the board for the men's shelter, so I'm doing advocating for the homeless and that kind of thing. So that's not always

so popular type thing. So, yeah. So from being the shy little guy in school to this, like... Confidence. Yeah, yeah. But it's quite a change. Yeah, it's... I find it interesting going from suicide to where you're in front of a,

standing in front of a congregation, talking to people. Yeah. That is quite a change. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Where does, when do you meet your wife in all of us? Well, I'll back, my present relationship, we're not, we're engaged, but we're not married yet. Okay. And we, my first wife, when I'm divorced, we met at seminary back in Toronto. And so actually she eventually, she was a Baptist Pentecostal. She eventually became an Anglican.

priest herself. And we raised three kids, lived in all sorts of different places over the years. But then that went downhill back in late of 2005. We were divorced in 2006. And then my present spouse, I've known her for years, but she was actually a member of my church when I, I retired. I've retired once and before I retired she was a member of my church now she goes to a different church But so we we've only been together for just over a year You know you you strike me as an interesting fellow And I mean that is you come in your You're a pastor you wear the garb with you you come in you talk about Jesus you talk about all these things and

I grew up going church and that's like you're over here in this one light and then on the flip side you've tried committing suicide you've drank you've had divorce you've done you've had some tough things go through life and you talk so openly about it i find that very i don't know is refreshing the word yeah well um i mean that's one of the the things um i guess that's one of the things also why um the Christianity of my childhood, one of the things I didn't like, whereas the Christianity that I came into, you know, in my early 20s, was a very practical Christianity.

You know, that dealt with real life. And by the way, and that, I mean, to me, being a social worker, that would fit right into it. I mean, if the, if my faith. faith that didn't have something to help me and help others as a social worker. I mean, what good is it? And likewise, no. I mean, back when I was in central Alberta, I was in two different communities during two of the farm crises. Having a faith that meant something to guys who are losing their farms or losing their businesses. I mean, if it doesn't relate,

who cares, who wants it? You know, in one parish, I probably had three or four suicides a year. If your faith doesn't help you in that in some ways, again, who cares? So, you know, to me, all the faith stuff and the Jesus and the Bible and that kind of thing needs to relate to real life. And so to me, the two go together, you know, being real about your life. And having that connect up to God. To me, they need to go together.

And to be honest, I mean, one reason I don't mind sharing it is that that's a help to people. I mean, I remember dealing with a guy, he was in the side. psychiatric ward of the Calgary General Hospital. And he had tried committing suicide. And so the ward nurses asked if I would go into see him. So I go in to see him. And he says, I don't want to see any old, well, I won't use the words he used quite. I don't want to see any old pastor. You don't have a clue what I'm going through. And I said, you're right. I can't. can't be in your skin. I probably don't have the foggiest notion what you're going through. But let me tell you a story. Okay. So I told him my story of having to try, having tried to

commit suicide and how I felt that way, felt at that time. And he just looked at me, sort of dumb look, he says, how do you know that? How do you know how I'm feeling like that? I said, because I've been there. Well, I mean, that makes all the difference in the world. Hearing your story or something like your story from someone else, it means it connects up. It helps. And that's what, you know, I work with Alcoholics Anonymous,

something they call Fifth Steps. It's where the folks go and share something about their lives. Well, it's that sharing that, I mean, that's one of the good things, great things about the 12-step programs is you have folks, guys and gals who are being real about what they've been through. And that helps each other. Well, I just, I bring it back. Never, maybe I've never paid attention enough too. That can be put on me. But most, I like how you talk about your childhood, Christianity growing up, they painted in a certain light. It's almost perfection.

and you can't, well, life isn't perfect and not even remotely close. Yeah. And what you're talking about is, well, that's life. Yeah. Yeah. That's very interesting. So you become a pastor in order to essentially carry on what you're doing as a social worker or what else is to try and help people.

Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So for 43 years then, what sticks out is, I don't know if it's high times or good memories or just meaningful memories. What are something that over your time doing what you do, what's something that sticks out? Well, I guess there's all sorts of things. So I'll give you sort of an idea of sort of where that went.

I started off in Calgary as an assistant in a church, in a suburban church. And then I went to central Alberta and had five churches, 11 communities spread over 2,300 square miles. So a three hills area. And then from there to Innesville, Bowden, outside of Red Deer, then to an inner city parish in Saskatoon, and then to here. So I've been around. So I basically, and then, oh, and then when I was a student minister, I was involved in a very large rural parish in southern Saskatchewan, and then in a humongous downtown parish in Toronto.

So I've been virtually every kind of parish situation you could ever think of. So, um, all sorts of varied stuff. So I've, over the years, I've done tons of youth work, work with kids, with young people, and glad to see a number of them go on to wonderful careers, some of them even in the church. So I've had probably four or five kids that have become pastors. So that's been really quite gratifying. I've done all sorts of community work. Particularly, well, anything from, I served in the Ag Society in one community and helped design a new community center.

Then all sorts of, in another community, I was one of the spark plugs for an environmental program. Basically, cut down the amount of household waste by about two-thirds in three years. completely redid the whole garbage system for the community. Done a bunch of stuff to do with local history. Done a lot of advocacy work sometimes for farmers, now for homeless, you know, basically sort of where the need was and where God seemed to me calling me at the time. Here in Lloydminster, for instance, the work with the men's shelter and the homeless was not sort of my choice.

So my church is right across from the May Theater downtown. Well, we found people sleeping in our garbage shed and sleeping under the wheelchair ramp in the middle of November. And so I went around downtown and said, you know, is this a point? problem or is it just something that happens at the church? And so the furniture people, for instance, where digital connections is now, they said, oh yeah, we have guys coming in here and they haven't slept a wink and so we have to get rid of them, but they end up, we find them fast asleep on our mattresses, our beds, you know, and also the people say, yeah, we have homeless here all the time. And so basically the whole thing I started with the homeless because I didn't want people freezing to death.

So it wasn't very altruistic. It was just that I wasn't interested in having that on my hands. So that's how I got involved in the men's shelter and to continue to be involved. But that was a need that I saw. Oh, by the way, after sort of pulling people, I decided, well, I'll call a community meeting to talk about this. this was in June of 2007 was it 2008

so I call a meeting and much to my amazement there's over two dozen people there people RCP, Social Services City of Lloyd Minster Public Library downtown office downtown businesses

and this is with a week's notice or two weeks notice type of thing. All these people show up for this meeting. You know, obviously there's a need and an interest. So I've been at this now for eight years, more than eight years now. Yeah. But it's basically where, you know, there's a need and somewhere, something that I feel called to. And then so it's varied from community to community.

in one community when in Israel Bowden when people were losing their farms it was a sort of advocacy on their behalf telling their story and that kind of thing it varies it's been really varied over the years and and and and and plus I mean plus the just plus the work that happens right in the church of, you know, ministering to people and helping them and nourishing them and that kind of thing. You've been then all over Canada. Are people all the same? Or does it change from rural to urban to Saskatchewan to Manitoba to Ontario?

I would say people are all the same in terms of their strengths and weaknesses. in terms of their needs, their aspirations, things like that. Now, the particular cultural setting and the way that that's shaped may be quite different. So I'll give you an example. There's a fellow by the name of James Gray who wrote, I think it's called the Winter Years. It's about the Depression on the prairies. And he describes the difference between Alberta and Saskatchewan. And when I read that, I said, yeah, yeah.

So he says, okay, so number one, you notice that Alberta is more redneck and more sort of questioning whether they really like Ottawa or Toronto. He says there's a good reason for that because with the preferential freight rates, Alberta got shafted all the time. Maybe, you know, Saskatchewan would get shafted, but Alberta, even more so, because they were the end of the line. So if the freight rates were orchestrated

to the benefit of Central Alberta, like Ontario, in other words, Alberta got it worse than anybody else. So no wonder Alberta does not like Ottawa. He says, it's historical. There's a good reason. It's part of culture. Plus, in Alberta had more of an influx of people from Utah and and various other places, you know, Montana and such from the states.

So you had a different influx of settlers, you know, so the tenor of Alberta is different. He says, and then on top of that, and then, so he says, Alberta is naturally, according to their history and culture, sort of more redneck, more their own guys, you know. you know, Mr. Trudeau, past or present, too bad type of thing. He says, if you look at Saskatchewan, Saskatchewan lived through the Depression, and if it hadn't been for cooperating together and working together, they would not have survived.

Because by the time the Depression hit Southern Alberta like Medicine had, etc., the Palliser Triangle, those farmland were taken out of commission. And so the 3030s never affected them like it did, Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan got the brunt of it. And so basically, Saskatchewan saw their topsoil, their livelihood drift eastward. Alberta never got that like that. And so, you know, one of the RMs in southern Saskatchewan, there was not one single person, well, one person from the whole county council or

RM council, only one person that wasn't on the dole, that wasn't on relief. I mean, that's how widespread it was. It got to the point where to help people to survive that had no livelihood because their farm was gone, they would be allowed one milk cow. If they had two milk cows, they had to sell one off. But the government would provide the feed

and the water for the one milk council they had milk for that. You know, like, so if it hadn't been for the government and the co-ops and working together, it wouldn't have survived. So the whole sort of socialist or cooperative feeling of Saskatchewan,

there's a good reason for it because it's a different set of circumstances. But in terms of the needs and aspirations of people, they're the same. It doesn't matter if you're from Saskatchew, Alberta, Ontario. No, no. I mean, my youngest son is a pastor in Toronto, and so, you know, yeah, same place. And then on my mom's side, the family comes from Nova Scotia.

So, yeah, they're the same. I mean, part of them are up-coast fishermen, and they could do pretty well in a, and our oil community, well, not for oil, but I mean they're hard living, hard drinking. They're good old boys. They, instead of breakfast, they have whiskey. Have you always enjoyed this area then? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Something to Bolton, Lloydminster?

Yeah. I came in in 2007. And actually, a funny thing is people said, you know, after Saskatoon, isn't this sort of a downer? And I said, no, well, no, actually, I grew up in Madison Hat when it was about this size. And so a community where you know people and are known by people and where you can make a difference, where you can have a sense of belonging, I mean, that's what I'm used to. So I like Lloyd. And, you know, and, you know, I'm used to sort of redneck central Alberta.

I mean, this feels very much at home. And I, you know, and I say to my boys, I said, you know, well, the first Christmas I was here, on my little Christmas notes, I said, from a genuine borderline case. And they said, Dad, we have known that for you. years. You know, this sort of perverse sense of humor we have around here. You know, yeah, so, you know, I enjoy it. Yeah. Where did you raise your kids then? In mostly, well, a little bit in El Nara and Inesville, but mostly Saskatoon. So you only spent a little bit of time out east then, and that was when you were younger then? That's when I was in seminary. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

What were some of the things that you instilled in your children growing up that maybe, you know, from your own childhood you maybe tried to steer away from? Well, one thing was that they were valued as individuals. I mean, none of them were raised with the idea that they had to be like their brothers or like anyone else. that they were individuals, that they were valued for who they were as individuals. And so the three of them are quite different, different personalities, but they're strong. They have great careers. So that's one thing that was instilled in them. A naturalness with people, all three were raised, you know,

with lots of people and the youngest in fact the pastor was basically raised by the church but all of them always had people around so they are very they're naturals with people and and as part of that is that they're all have the gift of the gab i wonder how that could happen so so alan the eldest is a lawyer specializes in medical law the next one uh david is a teacher and artist and then the youngest is a former actor and pastor so all of them are

supremely self-confidence all of them are good with people good speakers poor kids all of them have a sense of humor and down to earth and well-grounded you know what is a pastor who's a father

worry about for his kids? What were your stresses growing up or having them grow up? Well, they were way smarter than me. I mean, way smarter than you. How so? Well, I mean, all of them, I mean, all of them, all of them drink. I don't, but they all drink. But they are much,

wiser than that in that than i i ever was i mean like um they would organize especially allan and david would organize pub crawls so they would start at amigo no it wasn't amigos it was at the top of the broadway bridge do you know you know saskatoon well i'm sorry i do know sastoon you know top of the broadway bridge so they started started a pub there and then go down Broadway to 8th Street and then work along 8th Street all the way to McCurcher to Thomas Cook. And so the idea was you had to have a drink at each one. We've all been there before. They'd end up at Thomas Cook because that was only three doors from our house.

So, I mean, no drinking and driving there. They would just mosey along. And what did you think of that? I thought, well, that's responsible. I mean, yeah, they're in bad, maybe worse for wear in the morning, but it's responsible. I mean, and not only that, I mean, David never told me about this, but there was one of the guys that was really worse for wear. And it was a cold night, a winter night. Well, he went and carried his friend all the way home to his place, got the key out of his pocket,

opened the door and carried him into his bed and laid them down on his bed. This friend, if he had to manage on his own, would have never survived. And that, I didn't even, David didn't tell me about it. Someone else told me about it. Or an instance of Alan, the eldest, he comes home with two girls. I mean, how many of us can date two girls? Anyway. So he's got two girls.

That's his date, his two girls. So they're off to a party. Alan's off to a party with two girls. Goes to the party half an hour later or less. He and the two girls are back. They have picked up a pizza and they're going to watch movies together. And I look at Alan and I said,

so what's up? Well, the party was a bunch of losers. They were all taking drugs. We decided we didn't want any part of that, so we decided to come back here and have our own party. Good kid, eh? I mean, I think that's pretty sensible. I mean, so, yeah.

So, I mean, they've made some really sensible life choices. I mean, well, both Alan and Philip. or senior watch at their high school in other school president. I mean, I think that has to be some kind of record to from a family. But all of them took prominent roles in school affairs. Alan, when he left high school, he was the top scorer for both football and basketball for his entire school. So he was scouted by the hilltops for football. You know, Sarge, Doug Sargent wanted him,

and he was scouted by U of S for the Huskies for both basketball and football. And he turned them down. And I'm thinking, what? What kind of idiot are you? You're getting scouted by the Huskies. Who knows where this might go? You know, the hilltops, I mean the hilltops are a really good football team. You know, he says,

Dad, high school was a piece of cake, but university won't be like that. I'm going to need to study. Well, he did. He came out, so he's got two degrees. His first degree was a double major, double honors major in environmental studies in land use and biology.

So he comes out of his science degree, with the top marks for the entire, well, then he applies for law school and has the top marks for all of Saskatchewan going into law school. This is from the son of a guy who flunked out of university. I think like, wow! I mean, and then when he finishes law school, he gets scouted by the top three law firms of Saskatoon. I mean, top three all wanting him to article with them.

So you're a proud dad. Yeah. I mean, they must have done something right. Yeah. So that's pretty cool. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah.

Well, and did you take the same approach with your children as you, I assume, take with your congregation? Did you try and hide away some of the blemishes of your life? Or are you this open with your kids as well? No. Tell it like it is. Yeah. And it's very refreshing. It's very interesting.

I probably won't get over this fact all day long. Well, I mean, and actually, you know, and I don't bring it in all the time, but I use that in my sermons. You know, I mean, and, well, I mean, you know, like a sermon not that long ago, I said, you know, are there, And if you have a problem like I have, do you ever feel like you just write some people, like to write some people off? That, yeah, we're all supposed to be made in the images of God. But there's some people that you really have trouble with.

I mean, good example is, is, I was just leaving the church. Today was our first day back in person. And so I'm taking, carry my stuff out to, to the car, and this street person sees me and starts to walk over. And I think she's, I'm hoping she's drunk, but anyway, that would excuse it maybe. Anyway, he says, how did she put it nicely? Oh, I can't say how.

She says, Chris, you fucking bastard. I know what you did to my mother and I don't have a, one of a thing to do. with you, and more of the same. I'm thinking, what in the world? Who are? I know who she is, but I mean, I don't have a clue what she's talking about. And she just, she was, had been sort of camped out in front of the post office. And she launches on this, you know, she's a very belligerent, aggressive woman. And I'm thinking, what in the world is that about? And I walk away and I'm thinking, okay, you go back. I don't want to deal with you. You can go somewhere. You can go somewhere. We're hot and bothered if you want.

I mean, but, and so sometimes I share that kind of stuff. I said, you know, do you have a problem that you, people that you have trouble with? I mean, don't we all have that? I mean, and, you know, and I see people nodding saying, yeah, yeah, okay. So, and I, the sense is, okay, what do we do about that? How do you handle that? You know, nothing like being real. So how do you handle that?

Well, in this lady's case, she's a real interesting sort. Take her in small doses, very small if I can. Let her know where the boundaries are. Never usually try to have someone else there as a witness. Usually never always protect my back, you know, because knowing her, she probably has a knife and probably would use it. I know that she has assaulted people and hurt them. So I will, you know, I face her, okay? I don't give in to her and I tell her what's what.

but at the same time I don't give her any I know so I give her a certain amount of space but I don't and I don't back off but at the same time so what are you trying to do are you trying to let her know that I'm trying to let her know like okay um you are accepted you are cared for but there's a limit and you can't get away with everything or anything um so she comes to our men's shelter comes to the drop-in And she may be barred from both right now, I don't know. But so, yes, we value as a person, but you can't do everything you want. You're, you know, you may like to manipulate people and screw them around and and muck up people's lives, but you're not doing it here. You know?

So to me, having some healthy boundaries is part of respecting people. valuing people. But she's not a person who, I mean, she's not used to that. So it's a hard one. I mean, she's a real B-I-C-H. Did a pastor just spell out, bitch? She is. For sure.

But, you know, I mean, I've worked on the streets in medicine that. I've worked as a social worker. I mean, my parish in Saskatoon was an inner city church as is here. I mean, you're used to people like that. So you know, that, that difficult balance between caring for them and not being manipulated or taking advantage of or injured or, you know, it's a difficult one but you know i mean we all have troublesome people in our lives no yes well i mean i mean there's billions of people on the planet yeah and there's a lot of great ones but there's a lot of not-so great ones well i mean um i mean carroll and i have this fun thing, you know, you probably know many of the people that we talk about, because she says,

oh, yeah, that was, they were quite a drinking crowd when they were, when they were younger. Yeah. Remember one of them, Dad used to let him stay at our place because he had sort of drift in late at night and be rather worse for wear and dad would decide that he really needed a place to spend the night. And I said, yeah, yeah, that sounds. Pretty normal. You kind of go through an age there where you explore things.

Yeah, yeah. And to hear that a pastor has done the same things, although should not surprise anyone. Yeah. Well, I mean, it was the number of years ago, I can't remember which one of the media, local media, interviewed off the record three of us pastors and after hearing something about our stories, the reporter said, I guess it sort of says that God can use anyone.

And we said, yep, that's exactly the point. God can use anyone. So at that point, well, I mean, I told them a bit about, you know, social work, flunking out, suicidal. One thing I haven't told you about is also I had a spell as a communist of the worst sort. I don't know what that means. So you best explain. So this is when I went to, when I first got to university in Evanton, this is the late 60s.

And so you had all sorts of student revolts and demonstrations and things like that. And the leader of it was, the group that was behind it was something called SDU, students for a Democratic university. So it's like the SDS in the states. It was related to the Black Panthers and all sorts of people like that. Okay. So it was a communist front organization. It was basically Trotskyist. I don't know if you know communism.

Yeah, absolutely. So it was a Trotskyist organization. and what they were agitating for was more student rights. And really what they were agitating for was very, very valid because there were some things that were happening to students that were not good at all. Such as? So, for instance, I mean, university classes are supposed to be places.

I mean, I'm not sure if this is still true, but places of inquiry where you could ask questions and raise issues and that kind of thing. well, that was being nipped in the bud. Well, actually, worse than being nipped in the bud. If you were a troublemaker and raised the wrong kind of questions in class, you were reported. What you said and did would be in your student records.

And that ended up being shared with, not just with the authorities, but with future employers. And so if you ask the wrong kind of questions, that would be told to your employer. So, you know, genuine questions that you might have as student would be used against you. We also knew that the RCMP, this is the Abraham, during the Aberhart regime, that there were its RCMP in classes watching students, taking notes of who was a troublemaker. And what is a troublemaker? someone who raises the wrong kind of questions.

Okay, next question. What is the wrong question? Questions that, things that question authority, question the way things are done. You know, yeah. Well, I mean, one of the other things was... But go back to this for a second here. I'm having a...

So question of authority like what? Like... Well, see, another thing this is related to it is at that time, there would be, you know, there would be student council, but there was no students on the Senate, the no student representatives on any decision-making bodies of the university. So even if you were a grad student,

there wasn't representation on any of the student body, on any of the government body or university bodies. So, in other words, decisions were being made for students without any input from the students. From the students. Okay. So I know, I mean, at Medicine Hat College, where my brother went, he was the very first student ever to be on the Board of Governors for the college. But, I mean, that was unheard of back then.

The idea that students might have a voice and want to have a voice and have a valued voice was unheard of. The idea that students might need to be heard from was unheard of. So I mean what essentially nipped the revolution in the bud was that we got a new principal or a new president of the university. We sat down with the students and I remember because I was in the room, sat down with the university students and said, okay, I've got three hours right now. I want to hear what you have to say and if that's not enough time and then come back we'll have some more. So tell me what's wrong and what we can do about it. take notes and we'll go from there. And if you don't see me doing it, come back and see me again.

I mean, the students were dumbfounded. They'd never had anyone like that. I think that was Max Wyman. They never had anything like that. They've never been treated with that kind of respect before. Anyway, so anyway, I was involved in the leadership of this group. but then interestingly and basically well there was two things that turned me away from that

well three things actually so first was the Trotskyist idea as opposed to Bolshevik is that you have revolution everywhere and once that you basically destroy the old to rebuild the news well that's only taken place once and that was the palpat regime in Cambodia

because basically what it means is liquefy everyone who has a brain anyone who is educated anyone who is middle or upper class because their idea is started fresh and and and the idea was the only people who are able to change are students and proletariat, lower class. And so I would say to them, oh, well, what about Lenin? Wasn't he part of the aristocracy?

Anyway, but one of the things that really turned me off was that they figured that only certain people were capable of change. So that to me was against them. The second thing was I noticed that and because I was privy to sort of the inner workings, is these guys were just as warped, corrupt, whatever word you want, as anyone else.

They were just as power-hungry, just as wanting their own way, just as disrespectful to other people, and just as abusive as anyone. So there was a bunch of girls that were sort of hangers on to this group, well, the guys in leadership would use and abuse them just like anyone else. You know, if you have the caricature of engineers being great womanizers, well, these guys were pretty good. You know, and so, you know, you'd have young

girls who thought they were in love with some guy and the guy would just use them and dump them. I'm thinking, these are revolutionaries who are trying to make the world a better place. and they're treating their own friends this way. So that turned me off. And the other thing is coming to Christianity, because I came to Christianity around this time, is what Christianity says is everyone has a chance. Everyone can make a difference.

No matter who you are, you can make a difference. In other words, and I remember going back to some of the, the Mayoists and saying, you know, you have a problem. Your revolution is too small. The Christian Revolution says that everyone can take part. Everyone's important. No one's left out. Poor Mayoists would sort of like, ah!

Well, I know I'd great fun because that to me my way of thinking was that they were sort of convenient revolutionists because they'd come to me and said, well, Mike, can I offer you a smoke? I says, no, no, no, I don't smoke. Well, how come? Well, I said, it's a waste of money for the revolution. And they'd say, does that mean you don't drink either? I said, same thing.

It's a waste of money for the revolution. and speaking their language. And the guy says, you know, Mayo to Song would like that, you know. But, I mean, these guys were sort of fair weather revolutionists. It was nice sitting in Edmonton in the summer where you don't have to worry about anything. If you were in somewhere else, you might.

So from there, you know, so I was a fairly short sort of period of time with them. but coming and discovering what the Christian faith was about, I said, you know, that's what you guys have got is just too small. So you, back then you thought the world needed fixing. Yeah. Still does. But how did you get, what was it about communism that drew you in?

Well, it was, see, when I drew me in, it wasn't so much, I mean, I didn't even know it was communism until I got involved in the leadership. And actually, most people, probably most people that got involved probably didn't know. I mean, it's, well, you might say, I mean, I don't know the background of Black Lives Matter. But just do an analogy with Black Lives Matter is, do the people. who show up for the demonstrations. Fully understand where it's rooted in? Exactly.

Probably not. Do they know who the leadership is? Do they know who it started? Do you know who the leadership is? Well, I know there's two or three women, but, you know. So with SDU, I mean, so you go to a demonstration and there would be someone up on a platform, busy yelling, shouting, you know, spouting something or other.

and interesting thing is and this is one of the things I hate about sort of crowd scenes is you'd have someone up there haranguing the crowd and then you'd hear a voice over here and maybe a voice over here sort of echoing that thought or responding to it but I discovered later

those people out in the audience were plants. Were plants? Yeah. They were plants. They were part of the organization. See a little old lady, you know, respond and you think, oh, well, that must be genuine. She was part of it.

She was a plant. And so, you know, you have that person, this person, this person, this person. Well, it raises the tenor, the emotional pitch of it. More and more people get involved who aren't even part of it. Before you know it, you're caught up. And I've seen that even in legitimate political conventions, the same kind of stuff. not not Marxist or communist at all same kind of thing I've seen it in conservative conventions I I that's messed up a that's messed up when you when you but the more

you research things well if you did if it works for communism will work for conservatism or liberalism or whatever ism you want to put there yeah whatever you want to put anywhere. There's been enough documentaries come out these days to talk about things like that. Well, I mean, and the thing is it's so easy, you know, easy to raise

you know, well, I mean, this is some problem with some more politicians. If you raise enough the right, the flags and, you know, the right slogans and appeal to the right base, you can get lots of people on your side, whether they

realize what you're about or not. So is it hard, coming from all that you've seen, isn't it hard to like flick on the TV and watch any of what's going on right now, just to know that a lot of what you've just talked about is going on day by day, any which organization you want to throw it at, you just, you can just see that? Yeah. Oh yeah. Well, I mean, even, even, not just even TV. I mean, I won't go into any details, but I mean, in this and other communities, of being aware of something happening and thinking, okay, what's the rest of the story?

What's really behind this? You know, we see the headline, we see the coverage on TV, whatever, but that's not the whole story. There's something else more to it. And unfortunately, very seldom does, the whole story get out? You know,

sometimes there's some real skullduggery, some graft, some selfishness that's in behind that never gets, never gets exposed. You know, well, I'll give you one example. There was, in Saskatoon, there was a big hellebolo about

the expansion of a golf course. And, you know, of course, you know, all sorts of things could trotted off, like, oh, what about the environment? It's going to hurt this or that or whatever. Guess what? That was a red herring. The real reason for the hallow balloon about the golf course was it was going to threaten the view of somebody's acreage. That's what it all was about. And he had listed all this.

support. Because people don't dig and find out what it's actually about. Have you ever thought about that? Why is that? Why do people not dig? You see it, social media has become a prime target for that. Yeah. Well, sometimes it's laziness.

Sometimes it's not wanting to be, you know, a shit disturber. I mean, I've seen things even in Lloydminster that, I'm surprised that the press never investigated. I mean, if I was in the press, I would have right away. But then on the other hand, is, okay, do you get a reputation for attacking the big boys? Do you want a reputation for uncovering a mess? Or do you just let it slide? don't have the answer to that question.

That is, I just think, there's a reason why I like this. This is the full story, right? If the tagline was, pastor is a communist, think of the amount of clickbait that would be. Maybe that's what we'll do. We'll put it as, that way they can hear the whole thing.

Yeah. But as far as that question of, do you want to be a shit disturber and more able to wrestling with the big boys, the big boys it's more are you putting yourself in a position of

harm or possible things that you don't want to happen happen that would be the concern in my opinion but well I mean and true I mean and and let's say the media did take on some of these

juicy stories what might happen I mean we already know that in the states that certain media get labeled for this one direction or another, that undoubtedly means something in terms of their advertisers. So if you're the only newspaper in town and you expose something on savory going, what's that going to do? Is it going to increase your readership or is it going to lose you some advertisers?

Follow the money. You know You know The Washington Redskins Right They're changing their name Right They're the Washington football team now

Yeah And for years and years and years They hold out They had lots of people upset about their name So now they've changed their name Well what changed And you find out The people that support the team

Told them they were going to pull their money Yeah It had nothing to do with It has nothing to do with whether or not they believe Redskin was derogatory or not, right? And people can make up that choice for their own, well, take the Eskimos. It has nothing to do with them wanting to change the bloody name. It has everything to do with money.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And coming back to, you know, the, coming back to the Trotskyists for a moment, um, when I, before I got involved, I had no idea that they were Trotskyists or all communists. It was, the thing was, here was a group of people who wanted to make a difference, who wanted some change. And to me, that was, that was the key thing. It was a noble cause almost. Yeah. And so the fact of what their political affiliation was, that wasn't, that wasn't the key thing to start with.

And then once I discovered what they were really like, then I dumped them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He got into the inner workings and so. was going on and where it was leading and you're like that. Yeah. Yeah. And I would say the, the, um, you know, I mean, with the, um, with the Bacly's matter, okay, uh, at least one or more of the, of the leaders may have, have a Marxist background. Or that's what I've read anyway. Is, yeah, but, um, is that the sort of important thing or is the important thing trying to agitate for some changes in terms of how visible minorities

are looked after. You know, I mean, I really don't think that a Marxist revolution is going to go anywhere in the United States. But in terms of agitating for some changes in the way that things are handled, there may, hopefully there will be some changes. So to me, it's not sort of the background that's so important. It's what the end result is. I mean, and to me, I mean, this is the sad thing.

I mean, over the years, there's been tons of demonstrations in the states in terms of, you know, blacks or other minorities. And then what's happened. Nothing. Oh, wow. I shouldn't say nothing. That isn't exactly right. But not as much as one would like to believe. Yeah.

Is that right? Yeah. I mean, like, you know, you hear of states that are, you know, trying things in terms of voter suppression. Well, that shouldn't be happening, but it does. So maybe the present agitation make a difference. But who knows? That's where I'm glad I'm a Canadian,

where individual provinces don't get to decide how voters, are registered. It's one system for all of Canada. There would be a lot of people, though, that are upset with the way the current, well, I'm, I'll say this, you know, going into the political sphere here, but I haven't been very happy with our current leader. He's not at the top of my list. And yet, somehow, across all of Canada, he's still got a lot of, you know, a lot of

of people that enjoy what he's doing. Well, and frankly, I don't, I don't know whether any of the alternatives would have handled anything differently. Hmm. I don't, yeah, I can't. Yeah. I mean, I think we still would be badly in debt. I think we'd still have the COVID crisis.

What do you think of the COVID crisis? I think it's for real. You've, uh, been on this planet a lot longer than I have. there's well there's never been anything quite like it not since 1918 but even with the Spanish flu

you had a war going on then and they didn't shut down everything to try and they did they did the the flu came to here after the war and they shut down churches and businesses and schools

quarantine all over the place all of you know Now, the thing I haven't found is how long that was. So I haven't found out how long it was and what the sort of after effects was. But, I mean, obviously, the country bounced back. That was 1918, 1919, and actually the second or third outbreaks of the Spanish flu were worse than the first. Now, let's not say that too loud. Let's knock on some more.

Yeah. Right? Like, I mean. But I mean, they didn't have anywhere. They didn't understand the nature of epidemics and flu and that kind of thing. And their medical practice was nowhere as good as we have it. Plus, on top of that, the other thing, well, this is even worse, is often the deaths were almost overnight. The person would be healthy one day and dead.

And gone and next. And they had other things. I mean, you had a world war going on. Yeah. So. And unfortunately, I mean, we didn't know, I mean, the disease was spread in Canada and the United States by troops coming back. So, I mean, they didn't, I mean, in the trenches of Europe, they had censorship. And so the fact that people were getting sick and dying wasn't what didn't get out there.

The reason that it was called the Spanish is because the Spanish talked about it. Yeah. Whereas in the allies and the Axis, didn't talk about it. So if their guys died, well, so what? But, I mean, so when the troops came back, I mean, you drop off some people in Brandon and people in Winnipeg and people in Regina.

Well, it's no different than how this one spread, right? But, yeah. I mean, this one spreads because the entire world is so tightly traveled down. Like, I mean, you can get to anywhere, and everybody is going everywhere. Yeah. So it just spread across Canada,

and they didn't shut down provinces or anything. I mean, they did have quarantines and shut down schools and businesses and such, but it was already spread. I've seen the signs from, I want to say it was Kelowna, don't quote me on that, but I've seen the signs from back in those days where they had limited on gatherings down to, it was like seven people, if memory serves me, correct, things like that. Yeah, I definitely saw that. Yeah. So I'd like to hear more about sort of the after effects and where they went from that.

but so far I haven't found it. But, yeah. But, I mean, I've had parishioners with it. I mean, I had a fellow in the hospital that was 93 years of age. He was in the hospital for something else. Well, his roommate got COVID. And so he didn't even know that this fellow had COVID. And so here's this 93-year-old.

picks it up as well. He's tested three different times and found to be positive all three times. I mean, how worrisome is that? Or we had a guy from the men's shelter who's a diabetic and had to go into the hospital every week for his shot. He goes in there on a Tuesday. they announce on Wednesday that they have 13 cases of COVID in the hospital. He's just been there. He's vulnerable.

Next day he comes down with symptoms. This is at the men's shelter. You know, the guys aren't socially isolated there. You know, they weren't at that point anyway. Talk about worried. Fortunately, he came back negative. But they had known since Sunday that there was positive cases there. and yet he was there on Tuesday and they said nothing.

Or two people from Carol's Church were tested positive and as far as they know it was from a restaurant that they went to, which is interesting because apart from that, the fellow is an agricultural worker. I mean, he's just not in town very much. She's at home. So it's alive and with us, you know. It's a very strange thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, any more questions you have for me? No, we got into tangents. By the way, Carol, Carol is my, is nosy Parker, if there ever was. She says, is this going to be on TV? Is there going to be a, can we watch this or is it going to be recorded so we can hear it somewhere? Well, for sure, the Lloydminster Archives are going to have it stored away for future generations

if somebody ever wants to go down this rabbit hole with us. Yeah. No, it's been a very interesting chat. I wasn't sure what I was getting when they said I was going to have a pastor coming. I was like, oh, all right, sure. We can talk about life in the minute. But you have been, you've thrown that on its side 100%. I mean, when I think about what we've talked about,

we've talked about a lot of different things. Yeah. That have been extremely interesting. And your travels have, well, you've lived a life. That is for sure. Yeah. Is there anything you'd like to talk about that we haven't brought up? You know, you've mentioned a lot of different things.

Well, I'll give you a teaser. As I mentioned, this is what my book that I'm working on. George Exxon Lloyd, founder of our community, namesake. By the way, I hope we don't, archives doesn't have to deal with theirs or none of this, but both Barr and Deloitte were in today's terms racists, most definitely, because the Barr colony was meant as a colony for British and no one else, to the point where the federal government would offer them agricultural advisors to help the farmers, and they would turn them unless they were either Brits or Canadians from Eastern Canada.

So if the federal government offered us agricultural experts from the Codacos or Montana, they were turned down because they were American. They wanted. You know, you say that we might, hopefully they never have to deal with it, but isn't it absolutely absurd to try and hold people to the standards of today? Like you go, you go. Oh, it is. You go deeper in it. Everybody back at some point was probably racist because that's just the times of the...

Well, I mean, that's something that Carol and I talk about quite a bit, and my brother and I talk about quite a bit, is revisionism, is using today's standards for someone in times fast. Well, go back 100 years. I mean, yeah, the times were different. Well, I mean, and, you know, John A. McDonald or Ryerson or Sifton, or, you know, the various people that are getting lamb-based today, that was a different world, different values.

What did you think of them yanking the stature down? Stupid. I mean, sure. For one thing, I mean, I really wonder if the people who did that have read history. Most certainly not. And particularly any sort of nuanced sense of history. Like, okay, so why the reservations, for instance? Well, if you delve into the history, you discover that the reservations were designed as a way of, I mean, this may not be the only reason, but one of the reasons was a way of protecting the First Nations people.

Because prior to that, individual First Nations, Métis and Indians, were given landscape. and then unscrupulous outsiders whites would bargain it away from them, would jip them out of their landscape. And that's what happened in the Winnipeg area, in the Red Deer, in Red River area, is that they would be jipped. There would be scoundrels who would get them away from them. Because if you, because the First Nations and Métis did not. understand the land system and did not understand what these unscrupulous people were up to. And so the First Nations people would lose out on their land. And so one of the reasons for the

reservations was to preserve a land base for the First Nations that could never be taken away from them. So no matter what happened, that would be theirs. So it was a way of of protecting them. Once again, trying to help. Yeah. And even the residential schools. The idea, I mean, my father went to a residential school, except in Britain, they call it a boarding school. But it was the idea of a boarding school was to equip you for life, a certain kind of life, and to indoctrinate you into that way of life. Now, in Britain, it was to educate you to become a proper English gentleman. Well, the founders of the residential schools thought, and we may say that they're wrong, but they thought the only way that the First Nations people are going to survive in Canada

is to adopt a European lifestyle, lifestyle, education, etc., etc. And so they need to be indoctrinated away from their culture and their language and become European. Well, we can say, oh, that was benighted, that is, to losing them their identity, but that was the understanding of the people who designed it, is that they need to become like us. And it's sad to say, but pretty well every nation on the world thinks that their civilization is better than anyone else. I mean, the Japanese still feel that way, the Chinese still feel that way about themselves. You know, people in India feel that way that their civilization is better than others.

Pretty well every nation in the world thinks that they're better. I mean, think of certain people in the United States think that they're better. That's part of the human condition. We in the prairies think we're better. Certainly do. And we know we are.

But I mean, so for Ryerson and others to say, You need to become darker-skinned Europeans. That was their belief. That their belief was education was the way. Well, I mean, Carol's a teacher. We say, well, if the First Nations people don't have education, where are they? What would happen to our First Nations people if they were still, subsisting solely on trap lines or on bison that don't exist anymore.

You know, so, I mean, the problem is, I mean, so we read history in terms of today's values. Well, it don't work that way. Yeah, it doesn't work, though. Yeah. Anyway, coming back to George Jackson-Loyd, one of his ideas, remember this was to be an English colony, was to plant an Anglican church within six miles of every settler. because the idea was St. John's was to be the mother church, or that's what Minster means. It was to be the mother church, and then there was all sorts of satellite churches out there.

So there's, in the county of Vermilion River, there's probably 12 to 14 churches that used to exist. Same thing on the Saskatchewan side. So the idea, within six miles of every settler, so that by horse and buggy or by horse, you could get to church, you know, easily. This is before roads were decent. And furthermore, what George Exxon Lloyd came up with was a set of plans that for $250, you got a package to build a church. And so if you look at the old churches, they're all the same. All identical.

Yeah. So if with an experienced carpenter as a foreman and a bunch of farmers, you could build a church. So there was one fund for churches, $250. dollars another fund for horse and buggies and another for clergy and so they brought over 50 i think it was around 50 men originally that would be that would be potential clergy so they had so george exon lloyd had the vision of what he called the saskatchewan plan of planning these churches all over the place to provide religious um for for settlers and at that point

point in time, the southern parts of the province, you know, Regina, Coppell, that area, the railway had been there earlier, and so there was, church presence was there, not just Anglican, but others as well, but this area was brand new when the bar colonists came here. So George Exeterne Loids, the idea was, okay, let's be first off the ground and do our thing. So that's why you have. you're writing a book about this.

Yeah, yeah. And it's fascinating. I mean, you've got the story of Tango Flags. You know, interesting story. You've got, there's a story of one day in 1914, I think it was. One tornado destroyed three churches. In this area? Yeah.

Lone Rock, Fartown, and Southminster. Southminster is where Wickham's nursery is. So three churches in one day. And I think it was either that day or the next day or very close to it was when the Toronto and the Toronto Regina Cyclone happened. It was a bad week. No kidding. You have another church that got stolen and then stolen back. Stolen.

Stolen. How do you mean stolen? People came with a truck and like loaded it up and took it away? Well, it was before a truck. It was the team of oxen or horses. And stole a church. Yeah, moved it. Yeah, moved it.

Probably 20 miles. And then the local people stole it back again. Well, it didn't have to steal it back because it had fallen into disuse where in the new locations when they took it back again, moved it back. Well, I look forward to seeing the book when it's done. Yeah, anyway. So anyway, it's great fun, you know. Yeah, going back through history and finding, you know, the architectural plan of the church system here around Westminster.

And the story of some of the early settlers, early settlers and early clergy, like for instance, so the system was they would have these new ministers in outlying areas to be trained up. And then they had a supervising pastor who would make the rounds and help them. So anyway, at one point it was an Archdeacon trench, George Trench. And the story is that he was quite a horseman. That one account says he drove like Yehu. Yehu's a guy in the Old Testament that's quite notorious. Anyway, it turns out that Archdeacon Trench had originally been with the British Hazars in the Boer War.

no wonder he was quite a horseman. It also was noted in one of the histories for his rather eloquent vocabulary for addressing oxen. He hated oxen. And I gather his vocabulary addressing wayward oxen was quite something, quite rich. Well, I will say it once again. I look forward to when you finish your project and getting a chance to look through it. Furthermore, I really enjoy you coming in and sitting here and telling some stories and everything else about your life. I kept you just shy at two hours, so we should probably cut it off right there.

But once again, thanks for coming in and doing this. You're welcome. You're welcome. Yeah. Hey, folks, thanks for joining us today. If you just stumbled on the show, please click subscribe. Then scroll to the bottom and rate and leave a review. I promise it helps. Remember, every Monday and Wednesday, we will have a new guest sitting down to share their story.

The Sean Newman podcast is available for free on Apple, Spotify, YouTube, and wherever else you get your podcast fix. Until next time. Hey, Canters. Hope you enjoyed that ride. That was a lot in there. And, well, I hope you guys have a great week. If you're the champ

And it's Wednesday And you got your feet up on the desk And you're thinking about Said Pilsner that you're about to have Maybe invite your coworker over Because maybe he wants to have a said Pilsner That's just what I'm saying Anyways

Have a great week, guys We will catch you Monday, all right?