Shaun Newman Podcast - SNP/WS Roundtable #4 - Truth & Reconciliation Part 1

Episode Date: September 30, 2022

A discussion on a topic loaded with complexity and different perspectives. This is part 1 of the discussion next week we will have another set of guests for part 2. Joined by: Tom Flanagan - is a Senior Fellow of the Fraser Institute, is Professor Emeritus of Political Science and Distinguished Fellow, at the School of Public Policy, University of Calgary Nathan Giede - is a pundit who has commented on political matters in print, radio, and television November 5th SNP Presents: QDM & 2's.   Get your tickets here: https://snp.ticketleap.com/snp-presents-qdm--222-minutes Let me know what you think   Text me 587-217-8500

This is Brian Gitt. My name is Patrick Moore. This is Dr. William Macchus. This is Bruce Party. This is Tom O'Wongo. This is Steve Barber, and you're listening to the Sean Newman podcast. Welcome to the podcast, folks. Happy Thursday night, Thursday evening. Or maybe you're just stumbling into this one Friday morning on your way to work, wherever you're at. It's another Thursday night roundtable on the Western Standard.

I thought I'd put this at the start here on the podcast. It's going to be part one. I'm beginning to understand. how difficult this conversation is going to go. And I wanted to have the roundtable and have it as balanced as I could. And one of the guests, Melissa Merbeki, and I hope I'm saying her name, right, couldn't make it on last night. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to have a part two next week with a couple of ladies

and hopefully start to build on this conversation here tonight. And as always, love to hear your feedback. and hopefully love or hate it, you'll give it time to see if we can't put a part two together that can help balance and start to give a fuller picture of everything. That being said, enjoy the roundtable and look forward to hearing what you all have to say, as you always never hold back, and I never run from that anyways.

So without that all being said, let's get to it and enjoy the evening. Welcome to the Shaw Newman Show on the Western. standard tonight. We are talking truth and reconciliation. I've got two guests that I'll add into the stream here shortly. We're waiting on a third and if she arrives, we'll add her in as we go. First is Tom Flanagan, a senior fellow at the Fraser Institute. It's a professor emeritus of political science and distinguished fellow at the School of Public Policy in the University of Calgary. The second, Nathan Gita is a pundit who has commentated on political matters in print, radio and television. So first off folks, thanks for hopping on and doing this with me.

Thanks for inviting me. Now a reminder, I was saying to the boys here before we started and the audience now is this is the fourth one. I don't know how many more times I need to remind everyone, but I'm going to do it anyways that these conversations are supposed to be a roundtable, meaning, you know, if you guys want to talk back and I'm okay to sit and listen and if I hop in that's great and likewise it can go either way It doesn't always got to come back to me and in that way You know we get the best and fullest allow people to kind of explore their thought out fully and when it with it being virtual

I'd appreciate if we didn't try and talk over one another because I know the audience for the audio portion It really well it just takes down the quality when we do such a thing that all being said Let's start here. The Pope visited this summer and then fast forward now you got September 30th on Friday We'll mark the second truth and reconciliation day and if Trudeau is smart He won't be in Defino, but you never know he's not at times not the smartest man I'm I'm looking at it and I go

I look at this as another Opportunity for myself to and that's what the day to me. I guess I'm trying to get out of it is an opportunity is an opportunity to learn some things. Here's some different sides of the coin, henceforth, you two being on, and see what different thoughts are. And so that's what I kind of want to get out of this. I know that's kind of general, but I look at it as a real learning opportunity. What are your thoughts on the second Truth and Reconciliation Day? And we can start with Tom and then Nathan hop in as we get going here. Well, Sean, we're in the midst of media bubble in which truth is almost absent. Going back to the announcement in, what was it June of 2021 about the so-called unmarked

graves of Camloops, there are no unmarked graves. Not a single body has been recovered. No exhumations have taken place. Those so-called graves are probably a misinterpretation of the radar data from an old septic field that was laid in the 1920s with a lot of sweeping tile. This whole thing has been torqued beyond belief with stories about mass graves and all the people who have graves have been found and people recovered. Nobody has been found. Nobody has been recovered. There is no evidence that even one person has been murdered in a residential school. So it's really quite extraordinary, but you can't have true reconciliation without truth.

and we're not getting any truth right now on this big issue. So how's that for a truth bomb? Well, I tell you what, that's one way to start off a show. What about all the stories then, Tom? I mean, like, I certainly know in my circle of people, all the different stories of their parents going, and certainly on the podcast, I've had different guests on and talk about their experience

in the residential school is, I don't know, what do you make of that? Well, you have to take the stories one by, I wanted to see how truthful they are. There's a large literature of people who attended residential schools. Much of it is laudatory, and they say how grateful they were for the education. More recently, there's been stories of atrocities that supposedly took place. I'm not saying that everything was wonderful, I'm sure it wasn't. But the more extreme stories by babies being thrown into furnaces or children being killed,

in electric chairs. You know, there's just no evidence for any of this. This is the kind of stories that kids tell at night in the dormitory to scare each other. And actually, there is some evidence of that that's part of the source of these stories. Anyway, at this point, what we need is actual evidence more than simply somebody telling a story about what may or may not have happened 30 or 40 or 50 years ago. So that's why I start with the so-called unmarked graves. This is susceptible to testing. We can dig and see if there are actual corpses in there.

Just like over in the Ukraine now, mass graves are being uncovered. They seem to be real. They're digging up corpses horrible. But it's actual evidence. But that's what we don't have from Kamloops or any of the other places that are talking about unmarked graves. So as I say, it's not to say that everything was wonderful. in residential schools, although we have to think seriously about what the alternatives might have been.

But the more extreme claims are just without foundation. But they're being parroted by the media. They're being picked up by woke media outlets like the New York Times, which did the most damage with its story. And they're generating a lot of cash for First Nations leaders. Federal government is appropriated about $350 for $350 million for future research along these lines. To me, it's incredible that all of this would happen without any actual physical evidence. What are your thoughts, Nathan, as you sit there and hear Tom's thoughts? I think for me, when it comes to the question of truth and reconciliation, we have to ask ourselves

if we want that. I mean, it sounds good, right? It sounds like something that we should desire. It sounds like a no-brainer or kind of a total lot. statement, who doesn't want truth and reconciliation? Isn't that the entire purpose of life? But are we going to take the steps necessary to get there in a permanent fashion? Regardless of the question of what's happened in history, what about what's going on in the present? What about the fact that there are issues on reserves that go unresolved, no matter how much

a government says they're going to do anything about it? what about the fact that First Nations leaders are often the first ones to use the grievances to get ahead, but they do not use the resources that are given those grievances to actually help their people. And it has become an industry. If you want to get into constitutional law, you'll do very well as somebody who helps First Nation leadership circles with their grievances, but doesn't necessarily ever see any of that go towards the people who, who are actually in extremists and in crisis. And so for me, as a First Nations person, I'm a status Indian.

I am of the Assiniboine, which of course hold the Treaty 4 and of the Nekota. I have always been kind of controversial in my stance by demanding that if we need to move forward, and that is to say that First Nations people need to demand accountability from their leadership and say, no, we want permanent solutions that take us towards a better end. You know, yeah, Nathan, I agree with that. And I think that there is a lot of practical reconciliation taking place due to forward-looking chiefs. And I've written about a number of these for the Fraser Institute, where one aspect of this is making better use of reserves like the West Bank First Nation has a thriving real estate economy. Another aspect is getting involved in the oil and gas industry like Fort McKay, First Nation,

and the many, many First Nations that would like to become investors in pipelines, although they're frustrated at the moment by governmental blocks on pipelines. So it's a complicated picture. There are many First Nations that are making a lot of progress forward-looking chiefs. They want to be part of the economy. They want better jobs. they want to invest and then there are others who

seem to be more interested in seeking restitution for grievances of the past whether real or alleged so both things are happening at the same time and I've tried in last 10 years I've tried to write about the more positive side of how First Nations are in fact not all but many are in fact making real progress

and what are they doing that's working? And could that be imitated by other First Nations? So it's not at all a bleak picture, in my view. There's a lot of good, solid progress, but the bad news tends to crowd out to good as far as the media are concerned. Yeah, the bad news always seems to spread faster than anything. I think we can all agree on that. I mean, just watch the evening news.

And the stories, you know, they leave the good news until the end. Heck, I got a show and we do the exact same thing because people want, you know, if it bleeds, it leads. And it certainly makes for a great story. You know, I'm sorry, Tom. I got, I'm sitting here and I'm thinking about your first comments. And I'm curious what Nathan actually has to think about that. Is it been blown out of proportion? Is that what we think?

I'm just curious. I don't hear too many people say what Tom said. to start it off. And I'm going, man, that's an interesting way to start. And I once again, I said to you boys off air, I'm like, I want to learn some things. And I certainly haven't heard that one before. I've heard various assessments of the reality of the mass graves and the questions thereof. I cannot comment on that personally. I don't have, I don't have definitive evidence either way. What I can comment on, though, is that the repercussions of the media hype that stoked the fires, that literally ignited at churches, was beyond reprehensible or even abominable.

It was unconscionable. And that hype resulted in people who are living, breathing, status, non-status, Aboriginal, Métis, Inuit people, losing their place of worship. First Nations people in Canada are some of the highest church-going people in Canada, and particularly in, of course, the two greatest mainline denominations, Roman Catholic and Anglican. And they have remained with the church. They are more likely to be church-going people than just about every other demographic who is not an immigrant demographic to this country.

And so the fact of the matter is that when those churches were burned, that was actually a direct offense against dozens. hundreds, thousands of people whose dissent maybe doesn't reach the blood quantum level. The government demands to be status, but dozens of people, thousands of people lost their place of worship because of this and or had to go and protect it. I myself had to spend nights at my church here in town, and this is not far off somewhere. This is BC's northern capital. This is Prince George.

And yet even here, there were worries about that happening right in the middle of our city. And I spent nights on watch with people of various dissents, but of course all of one faith. And we were defending our sacred space. And those who perpetrated such things across the country committed an absolutely reprehensible act that will go a long time before it's forgiven. What's a nice assin boy doing in Prince George up there wrestling with Lumberjacks? I was adopted. Oh, okay. Yeah, Sean, are you sort of new to Western Standard?

Because Corey Morgan was interviewing me previously. You say that this is new to you. Well, here. Tom, I'll hop in. I'll give you my background. My background's on the wall. I'm a hockey player. And so I haven't followed, I don't know.

I'm, if the oilers or flames are playing right now, I'd be, I'd be doing that, right? Except then the last two years happened, fellas. And I went, okay, something definitely is going on. And the reason I want to talk truth and reconciliation is I think when government gets involved like they have in my life in the last two years, that's not good. And then, you know, you start to read and see different things on how they've handled First Nations over the past, whatever. timeframe you want to take and I look at it and I go you know in my mind if good people talked in their communities to the good people the other communities

we could solve these problems and and and probably move on way faster and without the all the media hype and everything else because I've watched what the government's done but when it comes to the Western Standard episode four Tom yeah and when it comes to news media politics all this stuff yeah I'm I'm 36 and for the first 33 years of my life, I was hockey. I wasn't worried about anything else. So I'm green and I don't take any, I don't know, that's who I am. Well, don't apologize for being 36. I would sure love to be 36. But the point I wanted to make is that some colleagues and I have been writing voluminously about the unmarked Graves issue. But it's mostly in what

you might call alternative media at Western Standard for one, true north, international like unheard, Quillette. We've had a lot of trouble breaking into what we might call legacy or mainstream media. The closest there was a long piece by Terry Glavin in the National Post a couple of months ago, but Terry unfortunately sort of got the story half right and half wrong. So we've been putting the facts out there, but there's almost a deliberate. I hate to sound like I'm a conspiracist, but the mainstream media, you know, the big dailies, national newspapers, national networks, they're just not interested in covering this point of view. So thank God for Western Standard and others that are willing to give it a hearing.

So I'm not saying that I am right and everybody else is wrong. I'm only saying let's see the actual evidence to support the claims that are being made. Well, the lovely thing about hopping on here, Tom, is you're talking to a guy for, you know, the reason I don't talk about hockey anymore is I started interviewing all the people that mainstream wouldn't talk to. And that is a long list. And in the last two years, there's a lot of smart people that they wanted nothing to do with. I mean, I hate to bring COVID into this conversation, but literally there was a woman die in Saskia, too. getting the booster shot like literally last week and nobody will touch that now I'm

not saying she died because of it but when she's sitting in the same places where she got it it's pretty freaking close and that story's already been buried and they're trying hard to bury it so I I look at this and I go I'm not a I'm surprised by what you say because it's the first time I've ever heard it maybe I've heard a little bit of rumblings but now I understand why I mean the CBC isn't gonna come out and let Tom come on and say that that But that's not what this is about. This is about trying to figure out a little bit of truth and reconciliation.

And whether, as Nathan put it, do people actually want that? How do we solve what's going on today to move forward? So we're a stronger nation. And it's a complex problem with a lot of issues. And then you intertwine government, media, and a whole bunch of different perspectives. It's not an easy thing to talk about. Yeah. I'd like to hear more about what Nathan has to say because he's got the person.

nation's background, which I don't. I mean, I'm an outside observer, whereas Nathan is on the inside, so to speak, both inside and outside, I guess you say you were adopted. So you've got kind of a unique viewpoint there. It would be, I mean, you're sort of walking reconciliation in a sense, aren't you, been in both worlds? So it'd be really interesting for me to hear more of how you look at this. There's a lot of different pieces to that puzzle. The first thing to understand is that I was adopted at birth. And my name is different than what I was born with.

Though, of course, little consequence there insofar is that I never really lived under that name. But what's interesting is that I'm a child of the pre-Delgamuk era because I was adopted by whites, those who, and they could not have children. And they were very deeply religious people. My father passed away in December of last year. My mother is still alive, my adopted father and mother. And they wished to adopt a child.

They couldn't because of my father's cancer that he had had in the 1980s. That was their first year of marriage, actually. It welded them together rather strongly, as you can imagine. And so I belong to a group of people that no longer exist. You cannot really adopt a First Nations child unless you yourself, our first nations are confined some judge that will kind of finangle your heritage, culture, belonging, beliefs about yourselves into giving you that right, that privilege. I've met people from the post-Elggemook era, people who have loved the child that they have

fostered for years, they've attempted to adopt the child. Child could be very, very disabled. I've met people like this for in this situation, and yet the state will not yield, despite the fact that they've done nothing but shower that child with love, they will not allow that child to become their child by right. The child can only remain their foster child or perhaps be taken away and put into some kind of group home or into some kind of more tenuous situation simply because of a blood quantum level,

which sounds terribly racist to me, if you ask my opinion. So that's kind of part of my perspective, is having come from living in mainstream Canadian society with, let's say, the mainstream ethos of that society, yet carrying within me the rights and privileges of a First Nations person with full status. And so that's been quite the journey and trying to figure out not just where my belonging is

in kind of maybe what do I owe where I came from, but also a question of where does, If we can use that word, or let's just say being culturally associated with First Nations life or pursuits or even just being in the parts of Canada that are further away from the metropolises. What does that mean? And who gets to claim that? What does that mean for our country as it moves forward? What about being a working class non-indigenous person who has certain, who has certain, you know, habits of mind and belief that that makes them more like an indigenous person? And what about indigenous people like myself that are raised away from the culture? Are we allowed to, are we allowed to say, yeah, I'm indigenous too, and I don't agree with actually what some of the leadership is doing? And finally, especially as Canada becomes ever, ever more diverse in its makeup due to immigration, due to intermarriage, etc.

The final question in my mind is when are First Nations going to strike a deal with, let's just say, the old stock Canadians while they're still in charge, because when the new Canadians have a plurality in parliament and legislature on your city council at your regional district, that they don't they they didn't sign the treaties and they didn't build the residential schools they didn't do those things so they're not going to have a culpability historically speaking of any kind and the question is what are they going to do they might just liquidate the indian act and therefore everything just hits a big reset button and nothing was ever resolved that the arc of history didn't finish so those are all questions that come to my mind in these in these in these things discussions. Yeah. Where do you, what do you think it should go, Tom? Like, maybe not Tom, but maybe just both of you. Sure.

What would be the best case scenario moving forward? Is there a best case scenario moving forward? Well, I'll go back to what I said earlier. Where I see the most progress taking place is from the First Nations that are economically proactive and they're doing things to build prosperity for themselves. it's not easy for sure. Many are starting from way back, but it can be done. There are some real success stories.

And as they do that, they inevitably develop and strengthen friendly ties with the outside world because you can't be prosperous by yourself. You can only be prosperous as part of the Canadian economy. And so, First Nations that are doing this, they're leasing land to outsiders that are bringing outside businesses onto the reserve. They are furnishing workers. They are investing themselves in business. They're doing all these things.

And that creates cooperation. And I think more harmonious relationships, which are based not upon a sense of guilt or complaints about the past. It's based upon working together to build a better future. So there's a lot of this happening. There's not enough, but there's a lot. and I hope there will be more. And I think that's the best long-term,

long-term prospect for genuine reconciliation is cooperation for building a better life. Now, I should say I'm only talking about First Nations on reserve. That's now less than half of the registered Indian population lives on reserve and of the 1.8 million people that identify themselves as indigenous. the number of living on reserves is, you know, it's only about 25% if that. So that's part of the puzzle, is getting a better standard of living and cooperation in the economy for their reserves.

Off reserve, which is a large proportion of indigenous people, but it's perhaps a different approach. There, I think it means better education, better jobs. It doesn't have much to do with the reserve, actually. So there's different types of approaches that are needed for different types of people. And this is a very heterogeneous. When we say indigenous person today, well, that could include First Nations people who they and their ancestors have always lived on reserves. It could be First Nations people who have moved off.

It could be people who have been adopted. It could be, you know what, it could be Métis who have a long, separate history. in the northwest. So the solutions are not necessarily the same for all these different categories of people. And your thoughts, Nathan? Like if, you know, you're obviously not living on the reserves, what are your thoughts on what the best course for the future is?

Is there a way that everyone can come out of this, I don't know, not happy, but, you know, feeling like they got it right? I've had many different thoughts about this over the years. As a kind of timeline of events, maybe the simplest way to say it is that I was really happy when Harper was elected in 2011. And then 11 years later, I was really happy that Ottawa was being occupied by some very loud people. that's kind of where my political trajectory has gone over time and I I definitely am looking

for solutions that are very I want to say low altitude or grounded or I don't know if the word folksy is a little bit too too to two on the nose but the point is that that I want it to be people working together I don't disagree I want to be clear that what's been discussed here about aboriginals moving forward, that is to say Aboriginal groups moving forward through economic cooperation, it is, in a way, the old enlightenment and liberal ideal, small L liberal ideal, right,

that we will use market forces to become more like and to become closer to one another. And who can make war between those who trade? When we trade, we find an outlet for all of our creativity and for the frustrations, perhaps, that beset us otherwise. And I won't disagree with that in principle. But here into the 21st century, as I, in my short time on earth, have watched successive economic disasters not create a realignment or at least a reassessment of, of values. I've seen things go worse. I haven't seen the great Chicago fire remake a city and make it better. I haven't seen the great London fire remake a city and make it better. I haven't even seen

the bubonic plague change things and make things better. I've seen things get successively worse in the 21st century, socioeconomically speaking, for many people, despite the disasters that have hit us. I think that we need to dig a little deeper. I think we have to get into the questions of philosophy, belief, culture, where human belonging really starts. And to that end, I think that specifically we need to talk about land reform. We need to talk about trying to help people who are on the margins fundamentally get back to the land, to have a basis that's sustainable for them and to move forward as a country. And to be clear about those people on the margins,

I mean more than just anybody who can claim to have indigenous heritage. I think that there's a great Venn diagram, a great crossover between many people, particularly people who are in the working class, and people who are First Nation and others who have no First Nation's blood whatsoever, but live in ways that are very akin, to what a more indigenous sort of lifestyle would be. And I think these people, one, are a huge coalition of people if they could be found to be united

and turn themselves into political force, which I think actually did happen during the trucker's protest. But two, I think that a huge amount of their frustrations is based in this fundamental problem of the rentier economy we find ourselves in. There is a way forward, but the microcosm of First Nations issues and not to downplay it at all. is very much affecting many different groups of people. And we need, we need as a country to decide whether or not we are going to try and continue with kind of a liberal economic framework that very easily, particularly neoliberal, which very easily lends us to being controlled by corporations far away who do not care a whit about us.

Or if we are going to re-adopt a national policy and say, no, you know what, this country is for Canadians first, and we need to figure out how we're going to reassess how things are properly done here. Yeah. Yeah, the paradigm that I've written about for the Fraser Institute, I call community capitalism. There is a strong communal identity of First Nations tribes. It's understandable.

That's fine. That's great. That's what their history has given them. And so for those first nations, they're still living, immunally on a reserve, their participation in the economy will not be purely individual. They want to do it as part of their community. So some of the ones that I have studied have found an effective way to use their band government

to participate in the economy and to share the benefits widely and to create jobs. And some of those jobs are out there working on pipelines and in the forest along with white working class guys. some of the jobs are front office jobs but they all get a collective collective stake in it I think that's for those First Nation communities

I think the collective approach to capitalism can work now off reserve might be different and that's why I say there are different approaches I think for different situations what I think doesn't work is too much emphasis on the past, constant talk about the grievances of the past.

Yeah, bad things happened in the past. But those acts were not committed by people who are alive today, and people who are alive today didn't suffer those bad actions. So, you know, while we have to understand the past, we have to put our gaze on the future. That's the way I would see it. And, you know, Canada has been kind of an orgy of apologies. It's going on since almost 30 years now.

Critchin's sort of original half apology for residential schools. And then it's been repeated by different prime ministers. But, you know, look around the world, record of of colonialism. You know, who did a better job than Canada? You know, the Americans waged war after war

against Indians. The Spanish basically came in and enslaved all those that they didn't kill in Latin America. The Australians just pushed the aborigines aside, didn't sign any treaties. The European powers and the air engaged in massive slave trading in Africa.

So Canada's record is far from perfect, but in comparison to what happened in the rest of the world, you know, Canada has some things, I think, to be proud of. So let's try and build on the positive aspects of the past and try and work forward for prosperity for everybody, including the working class. And Nathan's absolutely right. we've got a big problem in North America that has arisen from outsourcing of working class jobs

and the the tendency of our governments to impose policies that hurt working class people. You know, the anti-energy policies hurting people, guys in the oil industry or forestry, you know, these are good, well-paying jobs, and yet they're often shut down because of government policies. So I think there's lots of ground that we can work on together. And I hope that will happen. Well, what is some of the biggest issues you two see with the current? You talk about the future and looking to the future and trying to work together and different things of that accord. What are some things you guys see as problematic of where we sit today?

Well, as a Calgary, I have to say, pipelines. This is just an enormous wall for the energy industry to climb. And now we see the craziness that the world is screaming for natural gas. And Canada has it but can't export it because we have not built pipelines to get it to market. So for me, as a Calgary, and that's what immediately comes to mind. Let the energy industry go and create those well-paying jobs. at all levels from out in the rough necks out in the field up to executives in the towers and the scientists and engineers. I mean, there's just so many important jobs there that need to be done.

So I think government is just standing in the way of, and, you know, the enlightened First Nations, their leadership sees us. They want to own these pipelines. They want to be, they don't want to block them. They want to invest in them. And I hope that will happen. but its government is just it's just goming up the works you know we have two pipelines

under construction in bc i'll believe of when i see that they're actually done with the gas pipeline and the oil pipeline but there are so many jobs and it's not just jobs but the benefits to the bans that sign on and support they get the impact benefit agreements they get cash they get contracts for the future this is the nuts and bolts of economic progress

and uh and it's going to benefit you know, those unemployed loggers that could get some of these jobs and it's just going to benefit so many people. So for me, that's the single biggest thing is government trying to stop progress in the energy industry. Nathan, Tom mentions pipelines. What's your thoughts on some of the biggest issues facing us right now as we sit here today? I think that the single biggest thing that's facing Canadians in general is definitely the question of affordability and I think that's directly linked to what Tom is saying there but but I think that there is something deeper than that and and it is that question of democratic representation recently there was discussion about the

Alberta Sovereignty Act my first column for the standard over a year ago was on the exact topic in a way that we're talking about right now was a combination of the question of what what do we do with the first nations question and at the same time what do we do with the sovereignty question and my answer was there is no sovereignty and there is no realigning and and changing confederation without buy-in from the first nations the first nations despite their their small population are probably the only demographic in this entire country that still gets basically a direct line to the Supreme Court, the interventions by the Supreme Court on their behalf, basically. They're one of the few groups of people in this country that can play upon the heartstrings of just about every government, regardless of its color, or to its doom if the government doesn't respond. And that's not about just playing politics or playing politics.

What I'm advocating here right now is that, to Tom's point about forward-looking Aboriginal groups and to my point about the question of land reform and or just socioeconomic stability in a country that is veering very close to the brink on every single statistic. The simple point is that if we want to reimagine confederation, we must invite the First Nations to the table. And in doing that, we may have, especially for us as Westerners, have a full. fundamental cudgel that even the might of Ottawa and that, you know, empire of evil, to appropriate a term called the Liberal Party of Canada, cannot overcome. And that if Westerners are

serious about changing the way things go in this country, it starts with seeing Aboriginal questions of sovereignty, rights, privilege, and ownership as their vehicle to a different and in my opinion, anything at this point is better, Canada. Yeah, it's interesting that Jason Kenney had much the same view when he became Premier of Alberta. Now, Jason, unfortunately, got ground up in the gears of COVID, and he's going to be out of office. But as soon as he took office,

he made a very high priority of improving relationship with Alberta First Nations. He set up a fund for helping investment in the oil industry by First Nations, with things like pipelines or electrical generators. So, yeah, I think far-seeing statesmen see this, what the point that Nathan is making. So it's not impossible to grasp.

Jason grasped it, and I hope whoever is successor is, will continue in the same vein. Well, boys, before I let you slide out of here, I guess I'm curious if there's any final thoughts you have either way as we move, you know, towards the end of the hour and that type of thing. It's been an interesting sit-down. One that I was saying in Nathan, before we started, I was unsure of where it would go. And certainly it was not where in my wildest thoughts we would get to, you know, land reform,

different things on the residential schools and just, it's been an interesting little conversation. Before I let you guys out of here, is there something, you want to end on or thoughts that you want to share before we go our separate ways. Let me end out of personal notes that Nathan talked about his personal history. I have adopted two children. One of them was mixed race. Could have been Indian, could have been Métis, but it turned out to be some African-American ancestry from black people came up to Canada from Oklahoma in 1910.

And the back story is that when Oklahoma was about to be admitted as a state of the union, the whites and the Indians, who were whom there were many in Oklahoma, they were ganging up on the blacks to try and take away their right to vote. And some of the blacks said, hey, we don't need this. They got in their wag and said they came north to Saskatchewa, and now many of them are in Alberta. So this is a country with many, many fascinating backstories. If things had turned out differently, I guess I could have had Nathan's adopted father

because we just wanted a baby. But as it turned out, it was not India or Métis. It was of African, Canadian or whatever you want to call it. Anyway, I just thought I'd share that story since Nathan was kind enough to share his story. I'm forgetting, and this is terrible of me, but out towards where I'm from, just north of Maidstone, the place you're talking about, Oklahoma, they all came there. That's it. That's the place.

That is the place. That is wild, Tom. That's it. Yeah. And then I don't know why, but most of them move to Alberta. There's a village in Alberta called Amber Valley, which is the best known, but there are others. And most of them are now in Evanston, the biggest number. but they're you know people move around so their descendants are are everywhere and so that's one of the lines of ancestry of my

it's my you know i'm going to kick myself when i get off this thing because i'm trying in my brain to to rack right now what the man's name is but one of the the kids born in that colony went on to play in the NFL and was the running back of the year and for the life may I I can't think of it. Yeah, I know who you mean. Yeah, my daughter is related to him. She's done a lot of searching of her background that she's, Ruben, Ruben Mays. Ruben Mays.

Thank you. Thank you. Oh, man. Great running back, played in was Washington State, I think. Washington State and then for the New Orleans Saints and the anyway. Yeah. Outstanding player. Yeah.

Well, anyway, my daughter, who has kind of an athletic build herself is maybe a second cousin to you. So small world. Small world. How about you, Nathan? Is there anything, you know, that we have, well, certainly there's a ton we haven't covered. But, I mean, final thoughts from you before I let you two hop off and go on your merry way tonight. Yeah, it's interesting. I actually, speaking of being related to all parts of the world on my father's side, my late father's side, no one could have children. So I have first cousins that are of Haitian descent. So there is also African ancestry in our family.

So there you go. And to Tom's point of there being a moment in, you know, in history where the two, the two dominant cultures, regardless of their race, ganged up on a, you know, a recent arrival and tried to try to take away their franchise. That just goes to prove again, human nature is what it is. are all human and we're all of the human race. And we're all sinners, as far as at least my theology is concerned, and we're all capable of doing terrible things to one another. The only personal note that I'd like to leave on on this count

is that after many years of thinking about the privileges that I'm afforded due to my particular heritage, it perhaps sounds naive or maybe idealistic, but if I could have it my way, I've come all the way from extinguishing the Indian Act to saying, I want the privileges thereof to be universal in this country. I think that the rights that are afforded my people in particular ought to be enfranchised to all in the sense that if we are all of this nation, then we should all be of this nation together.

And there shouldn't be first, second and third class citizenship within those of indigenous descent, let alone the rest of Canada. And that needs to be solved. And I look forward to whomever can figure out how to unwind that riddle and move this country forward. Here's a question for both you. I was going to let you go, but now I'm going to ask a real, not a dumb question, but one that's been plaguing me for a long time. And that is, I sit here and I don't know if I've stopped moving since we started.

And I told Nathan this before we started and before Tom hopped on, that this topic makes me extremely uncomfortable because I don't feel like I can say anything. right or wrong or whatever. I'm just kind of like whatever. How do you change a group of people's mentality to be okay with talking about it? Is that come from media and just how they're portraying it to us? Is that just talking amongst your friends and colleagues and neighbors and everything else? Because I can't be the only one. I can't be the only one sitting here going like, I just, I don't know if I want to talk about this. Well, one of the, yeah, and one of the, yeah, and one of the, of that is that the media have been captured by what many of us today call woke ideology,

which sees Canada, well, really all governments, as oppressive and racial minorities as victims. And so it polarizes the discussion right from the start. And that's ultimately unproductive. I mean, that can lead to apologies and compensation, but it never ends. it doesn't lead to the kind of cooperation towards the future that we need. So it's very difficult to get beyond that as long as the media have been captured in the way that they have. Everything immediately gets put into this template of oppressor and victim. And so those who feel that they've been labeled as part of the oppressors find it difficult to articulate.

position. You know, they feel guilty about speaking. But that's unproductive in the long run. Any thoughts on that, Nathan, as I stare at, I keep forgetting you got your microphone off. I keep waiting for you to hop in. But any thoughts on that? I think that we need to remember that the first and fundamental principle of just organizing people, let alone if you want to call it democracy or by any other name, is communication. Human beings have a right to communicate

to one another. They have a right to discuss things that are controversial and hard. They have a right to express their views on these matters. And what I will say to all those listening today or watching is that your neighbors also have a problem

with the way things are going in this country. They may have to keep it under their hat. They may not get to post about it on social media, but they have a problem. They are not okay with the gender orthodoxy in the schools. They are not okay with flags being at half mass for a year. They're not okay with the idea that you cannot discuss frankly the fact that there are good and bad people everywhere and we need new ideas to move forward. Go communicate with them, organize with them on a personal level, create communities and move your neighborhood, your town,

your region forward. Perfect. Well, boys, I appreciate this. And, uh, uh, uh, uh, Once again, I'm never let down with the different round tables that come on here. They certainly push your brain to keep up. So thanks again, guys, for hopping on an idea of mine and we'll see where it goes and see where the future takes us. But either way, thanks for giving me some of your time. Okay, well, thanks for having me on. Appreciate it. Thanks, guys.

Okay, bye-bye.