Shawn Ryan Show - #109 Tom Spooner - Delta Force Operator

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

Tom Spooner is a former Special Operations Veteran with a twenty one year career. His incredible service included time in the 82nd Airborne as a Green Beret in the US Army’s 7th Special Forces Group and culminated with numerous deployments with the elite 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment Delta. In addition to his military success, Spooner is also highly regarded for his work off of the battlefield with Warriors Heart–a comprehensive treatment program for veterans, law enforcement and first responders. As co-founder and president of the organization, Spooner's mission is to "bring our warriors home." Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://babbel.com/srs https://betterhelp.com/shawn https://shopify.com/shawn https;//helixsleep.com/srs https://blackbuffalo.com https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Tom Spooner Links: IG - https://www.instagram.com/1factfinder LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/thomas-spooner-b988072b Warriors Heart - https://www.warriorsheart.com Documentary - https://www.amazon.com/gp/video/detail/B08MWNGKKN/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Tom Spooner, welcome to the show, man. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here, Sean. It's a real honor to have you sitting here. I truly be in that going through, going through your outline and the little bit of research that I did myself on you. It's just, wow, we've got a lot to talk about. You've had a one hell of a career in the military and I'm just, I'm really excited that you're here, man. And so this has been a long time coming. So absolutely. And I'm equally excited to be here too. Good, good. But I always start off with an introduction.

Okay. And so here we go. Retired Master Sergeant, 21 years in the U.S. Army, 16 of those in special operations, veteran of the Gulf War and the global war on terrorism. Five years in the 82nd as an infantryman, six years in 7th Special Forces Group as an 18 Charlie, 10 years in Delta as an operator, assaulter and sniper, 12 combat deployments, one to Afghanistan, 11 to Iraq, 40 total months of time in combat at a team level. That is almost four years straight.

Struggled with chemical dependency, TBI, and unprocessed trauma, AKA PTSD. You've been sober for 31 years. Congratulations. I just hit two. Yes, congratulations. My wife's at almost at 14, married for 33 years. Congratulations.

And a father of two young men. And finally, you are the co-founder and president of Warriors Heart for the last eight years where you've assisted 3,000 plus warriors with their healing journey. We've got a lot to talk about. Yes, we do. But sober for 31 years.

Yeah. I mean. That's crazy, isn't it? You don't, you know, and you know what I love is that conversation, you know, we had a breakfast. You've been, you were sober in service. Yeah. And especially where we come from.

I don't know how it is, how, how your experience was, but that was frowned upon. Right. Where I came from. And I can't imagine the amount of pressure that you felt to, to go tie Taiwan on with the boys. You know, and how, like, we're gonna get into that, but I'm really curious, like, how did you deal with that?

Because it- Well, one of the easiest ways to deal with, well, first of all, I mean, we'll go through it, like you said, in the story, but I had a really solid foundation, you know, before I got into Spec Ops and, you know, and all of that, whenever it was a lot more difficult,

more difficult, more accepted kind of deal. But I also just came back to the, like, I'm me. Like, yeah, here's one, right? Like, well, I don't trust anybody that I don't drink with. You know, and then I would say, well, I don't trust anybody that I haven't fought with. So, we're gonna fuck, we're gonna get over this or we gonna, so that's the, we talked about this morning.

It's like, I didn't get sober and become a hippie. You know what I mean? I got sober and became even a more bad-ass warrior. So that's the thing we can either sit here and pray or we can go outside and fight too. That's cool. I'm equally would love to do either one. So that was what helped me balance it. And just in the way I got sober and the men that I was surrounded with that were sober also that were like three jumps in World

War II medics, you know what I mean? Four tour Vietnam vets, you know, all of those guys, you know what I mean, with sobriety. So I, you know, I mean, I was trained appropriately, you know? Was it difficult? Yeah, difficult at times. There's some funny times and, you know.

What would the typical response be to, well, I don't trust anybody I haven't fought with? Yeah. I mean, that really, that would have thrown me back on my feet immediately. Yeah, because I meant it too. Because you know what I mean, I'm a little on edge because I get it.

I mean, I was that guy at one time, you know what I mean, before I got sober. But it usually just kind of settled things down because it put it into perspective like, not that I can whip all these people's asses, but I can guarantee you wouldn't want to have to fight me again. I might not win, but.

And I was absolutely willing. You know, it wasn't just something I was saying. So they had to pause and be like, hmm, okay. Fair enough. But a lot of people, that's why I was saying, you know, so they had to pause and be like, hmm, okay. Fair enough. But a lot of people, that's why I always loved, I never led with it. You know what I mean? I let them know me, especially on active duty. It's like, hey, here's this guy's resume.

Here's you know, see what he's like on the team. Like okay, really? Wow, we want this guy on the team, whatever. And then they usually at some point find out, oh, he doesn't drink. That's weird, you know, whatever. And then it comes into those kinds of conversations. Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing that.

So I have a, before we get to in the weeds with your story, there's a, I have a Patreon account. They're our top supporters. They're the reason I'm sitting here. They're the reason you're sitting here. They, I mean, they're who helped me grow the show. And so one of the benefits that I give them is I tell them who's coming on the show early. And I give them an opportunity to ask a question, ask the guest a question. And I thought this was a really good question. This is from Brian Watkins. Given you have two sons,

what's the best advice you would give them generally for life? But then more specifically, perhaps, if going off to war, what would you say to help them prevent potential future post-traumatic stress? Yeah, break it down for me, like the first part, give them to life, which a lot of it goes into the war piece also. But for life, the number one thing is like, hey, be a decent human being. You know, just right off the bat,, do more good than you do bad. Be as kind as you can be.

Just on that side of the house. Be respectful. And I was raised country, yes, sir, no, ma'am. Just be respectful of yourself and of others. Be confident is a really big thing. And know who you are and what you stand for. That's a really big deal, especially as young men or growing up.

I mean, look how long it took me to figure out who I was and what I stood for. But having that in mind and having loyalty chain in mind, like, hey, who are my people on this planet? What is my priority? And that being families first. You know, and so that would be, well, and then the other side of that is like, that you need to be dangerous. This world is, as we know, not just because of war and everything, like it's tough, man.

Like you're gonna deal with tragedy, you're gonna deal with loss, you're gonna deal with success, you know, everything. You know, and it's you got to be tough, not just physically, but mentally, emotionally, you know, and I have two sons, you know, so they're men. So we physically fit, you know, to me, be ready to protect. I think that answered part of the first question. Definitely. And then and then when you're going,

if they were to ever go to war or anybody else that's going to war is like, hey man, you gotta know who you are and what you stand for. You know, and then again, understand the loyalty chain. The loyalty chain is a little bit different. You know, stateside, it was my family, was my family was first, but then deployed. The family is not in my picture anymore.

It's buried down deep, but what's my loyalty chain now is my brothers to the left and right of me, and the Americans that I'm protecting, and then the you know, in that order, the innocent host nation folks, you know. So, yeah, that would be having all of that in alignment. And whenever it's time to fight, you fight. Yeah. You know, and there are no rules, and you be just as ruthless. Again, it comes back to what we talked about before, that decision making process.

If someone meets the criteria of that violence act, then there's no rules. There's, address the threat until it's no longer a threat. address the threat until it's no longer a threat. What about, thank you for sharing that, what about getting ahead of PTSD? So getting ahead of it, that's, so the getting ahead of it is, so what everybody calls PTSD for me

that makes the most sense is just unprocessed trauma. So number one is to have tools, tools in the toolbox to address all those emotions, you know, because that's really what we're talking about, you know, with all those kind of traumatic events, post-trauma, is, you know, I mean, for me, it was a super huge thing to have a power greater than myself, you know, to have some sort of spirituality, you know, that I can tap into. Because I don't care who you are, in my personal experience, there will come a day whenever the world, the events, whatever,

completely overwhelms me and I don't have my own power, you know what I mean, to get through it. You know what I mean? So I have to be able to, logic says, if I don't have the power to deal with a situation, then I need to be able to get access more power from somewhere else. Whether it's religion, whether it's spirituality,

whether whatever, you know, mean your ideas, concepts, there's a bunch of them out there, but have something, you know, even if it's just a belief in your family, whatever, you know, whatever it is greater than me when I'm feeling sorry for myself.

That's been a huge thing for me. And then also, don't wait. Like you said, preparing is one thing. Like have an emotional toolbox, you know what I'm saying? Like deal with public speaking, you know? I mean, there's all these different things that you can do and all these different personal development stuff, you know, online, they call it emotional intelligence, right?

And all these different things. It's like, and what that is, is like you're dealing with uncomfortable situations, you know, so it's just like any kind, always revert back to training, obviously, because the military, am I trained or untrained? You know, if I don't have any emotional training, then a hugely emotional event occurs,

I'm gonna be overwhelmed by it. But if I've got some training and I've got some tools, I can at least start chipping away at it and potentially handle it on my own, with my own toolbox. So I think that's a huge thing. And then obviously if I have something bigger than that, then I'm going to need assistance with it, whether that's talking to a buddy, whether it's talking to, again, the spiritual aspect or a licensed professional.

No one hesitates to go to the gym. If they want to be in better physical shape, they go to the gym and they do all those different things. But we talk a lot about mind, body and spirit. Because I have to be strong in each one of those. And the only way for me to be strong in those is to train in them. Yeah. So pick out something that whatever you're into,

heck, that could be yoga, you know what I mean? It addresses and is one of the treatment modalities for PTSD as far as access and emotions through the body. And it's a good workout and all that other good stuff for you. But I get to rambling sometimes. I'd like to chime in on that if you don't mind. Yeah, absolutely. You know, I mean, when it comes to getting ahead of it, you know, the GWOT generations that fought in that war, you and I and a lot of the people

that have been on the show, you know, especially at the beginning, you know, like when I left in 2006, there were no resources. There were nobody, nobody was talking about this. Nowadays you have gentlemen and women, you know, who have spent 20 plus years in a wartime environment. You yourself, a thousand, a thousand direct action rates, 40 months plus in combat. And there are all kinds of people with more war experience than we've ever seen in the

history of the country. And lots and lots of respective warriors are talking about what it took them to get, what methods they've used to get better and dive into this show, dive into other podcasts, and listen to those methods. And I would say the one commonality, not the one, but a major commonality is addiction. It's alcohol, it's pills, it's narcotics, it's all of that. And most of the time when I'm talking to somebody

including myself, I've had my own suicide attempt. Drugs and alcohol or one or the other seems to be involved. And we both come from a team environment where that runs rampant, you know, and sometimes the team pushes pills on you. Sometimes your friends push pills on you. Sometimes you just get whatever happened, you know, the booze like get ahead of that shit.

And if you get ahead of that, then you're 10 times ahead of the power curve of what everybody else is going to be. Absolutely. And, and there's so many methods. I mean, spirituality, religion, therapy, psychedelics, I mean, warrior's heart, what Tom's doing, all secure, I mean, get your get your family right, get your wife right, get your relationships right and get rooted in them before you get out because the boys aren't gonna support you, man.

They have a job to do. Exactly. And they're gonna continue on that train. They're not there to baby your ass. No. And they don't fucking get it either. No, because they're still in. Until they're out.

And so you need to set up your new team, before you leave and get them ready to receive what's coming. Absolutely. But I just wanted to chime in on that. But let's get into your story. So before we do, everybody gets a gift. It's probably the only reason you're here,

but no, I'm just kidding. Yeah, those are Vigilance Elite gummy bears, legal in all 50 states. It's just gummy bears. Yeah. Thank you. Just candy. There's all kinds of gummy bears. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's what they all are. Thank you. You're welcome. But um Thanks, but all right Tom, let's get into it. So I want to just do a complete life story on you Okay, so starting from childhood getting into the military and then what happened afterwards all the way up to warrior's heart and and beyond So be long day 54 And I've had a lot of experiences, so yeah. I know you have, and those are important to document. And I know you have a ton of respect in the community.

And I know you probably don't wanna hear this, but you've been called a legend multiple, all the time. And you just, younger guys that are coming in, look up to you, guys that are in look up to you. I mean, you just, you're a very, very well-respected warrior and a lot of people want to hear what you have to say. And so with that being said, let's start with where did you grow up?

Yeah. If you're 21 years or older and use nicotine or tobacco, I want to tell you about Black Buffalo and how it's changing America for millions of consumers. Those of you that know who I am know that I spent a career in the SEAL teams and at Central Intelligence Agency. The majority of the time in those was conducting operations. And while on those operations,

something that we did all the time was chew tobacco, became kind of like a ritual. And I know of a lot of you out there who listen to me, love that ritual, and I just want you to know I get it. Black Buffalo even has long cut, and their pouches are award-winning for all you guys out there using those white portion things, Black Buffalo has bold flavors and full pouches.

Black Buffalo is full of flavor. It feels legit when you pack it, and most importantly is tobacco leaf and stem free. So if you're 21 or older, currently use nicotine or tobacco and want to join the Black Buffalo herd, head over to blackbuffalo.com to learn more. You can buy their products there and they ship directly to most states or check out their store locator to purchase at thousands of retail locations around the country. Born in the Midwest, raised in the South, charge ahead with Black Buffalo. Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

Black Buffalo products are intended for adults aged 21 and older who are consumers of nicotine or tobacco. Before that, I gotta say is like, I'm super proud of everything that you just said and did, you know, and a lot of people comment that I hear and get, and it's a great one is like, man, you're so humble. You know what I mean? You're kind.

It's like, absolutely I am, man, because I know that I ride on the shoulders of giants. The only thing that I can take credit for in my life is my willingness and a lot of hard work. But everything else, the men and the story you'll see, like the men that have been in my life, those that went before me and helped me get to where I was, you know what I mean? That's why it's super easy for me to be humble and grounded in where I am and know who I am and what I stand for.

And even whenever it comes to that combat time and everything, man, there's a generation of guys, like you said, that's in right now, or that have gotten out over the last couple of years, that double everything that I've done. I mean, literally. So I'm proud to be, again, everything that I've done, not gonna minimize myself by any means.

And I wanna say that I know a lot of guys that have even more than I do. And I can't wait to hear from them one day, you know, when they come out. So that had to, I just, it was important for me to put that out. So yeah, growing up, so I grew up in this, in a small town called Belle Glade, Florida.

Have you heard of Belle Glade before? Is that south of Okeechobee? It is. Whoa, that's a rough town. Rough town. That's a very rough town. Very, very. Was it rough back then?

Oh yeah. What year, what years are we talking about? I was born in 1970. Okay. So I was in Belle Glgrade from 70 to 87. So 17 years I lived there. Wow. Yeah.

It's sugar cane fields, corn fields. It's a rough place. Yes, it is. And how I grew up is I, middle class, you know, my dad worked at, everybody, you know, was farming of some sort. You know, my dad worked at the sugar cane mill, because I mean, literally sugar canes all around there.

And he worked on computers even back then. So that was like gen one computer kind of stuff, you know, but that's what my dad did. He worked there. And my mom was, she helped out with the schools, you know, with school teaching and stuff at that time too. So when I grew up, my dad was alcoholic also, whenever I was growing up. Wasn't an abusive alcoholic, but you know, he wasn't around a lot of times, just do. And I don't, my parents, you know, they did the absolute best that they could

with what they have, and I hold them in no blame for my life. You know, they taught me how to work hard. They taught me everything that I am today, you know, fundamentally. So I have a younger brother and a younger sister. My younger brother is five years younger than me and my sister is 11 years younger than me.

So we had a- Quite the spread. Quite the spread there with that. And let's see, so growing up, man, I've always wanted to join the military, like my whole life, primarily because two, my uncle was a three tour Vietnam vet and my grandfather was a World War II vet. Were you close with him too?

Yeah, really close. My uncle, because he was still on active duty, he was just that me starry eyed hero guy that was in Germany, whatever doing all this, come and visit. He'd bring me all my paratrooper t-shirts, US paratrooper, Death from Above. But my grandfather on my mom's side was, yeah, super, super close with him.

Yeah, really tight. Always take me fishing at all the games. Him and my grandmother on my mother's side was very influential. My grandfather on my dad's side, he was in law enforcement for 35 years, during some really, really tough years. He was already a law enforcement officer, so they kept some of them here for law enforcement and send the rest of the men to overseas. So that was both, I had law enforcement officer. So they kept some of them here for law enforcement and send the rest of the men to overseas. So that was both, I had law enforcement and military on both sides of my family.

That made it kind of rough too as a kid growing up whenever your grandfather's this legend, and you get in trouble for shoplifting something from True Value hardware store. Yeah. Did that happen? Yeah, it happened. Was it worth it?

No, it wasn't worth it. Man, it was horrible. But it was, yeah, so that's kind of my family dynamics at that time. What kind of stuff were you into? Man, I love, my whole life. I love playing football. I Was this I Was a little skinny kid, you know me know my natural build is a you know

Very lean and skinny and you know, and then when I was a kid, I was just this little skinny kid, man But I loved playing football Looking back on it. One of the reasons why I loved it so much too is it was, it created a construct. You know, there was a system, there was rules, there was things you could do and not do. You know, it was consistent, it was regular, because my life was a bit chaotic growing up, you know,

and I grew up, you know, in the 70s and, you know, and in the early 80s, where both parents work in, it was just like Lord of Flies a lot of times, with all the neighborhood kids, the older kids, the younger kids, it was a lot of survival stuff going on. And again, wasn't poor by any means,

we were just about middle-class, always had plenty to eat. But that's where I really got my work ethic from my dad because he'd worked the hell out of us. You know what I mean? From yard work to getting stuff done, to additions and that kind of stuff. So I've been working since I was 10 years old.

And meaning working for money, like getting a lawnmower business, not a business, but just cutting grass for folks in South Florida. It needs grass needs cut two times a week. So yeah, so I mean, I've been working hard my whole life. I mean, you grew up in a rough town. Did you deal with a lot of crime or bullying or? There was, I mean, they call it bullying now,

you know what I mean? And it was then, but it was just kind of how it was. The older kids and the bigger kids always whipped your ass, you know what I mean? And you always had to figure out how to avoid them. And you know what I mean? It was just kind of like a part of life. Like, hey, figure it out, man.

Like, Would you defend yourself? What's that? Would you defend yourself?. Like, hey, figure it out, man. Like, what's that? Would you defend yourself? Oh yeah, man, we have fighting. I mean, violence is something that has been throughout my life, you know, as far as that whole survive, figuring out how to survive instinct. And you know, back in those days, like I said, they didn't even use the term bullies or anything.

It was like, well, get stronger. You know what I mean? Like, learn how to fight better. You know what I mean? It was, which was actually really good, you know? Well, I'm just curious, what would your parents, I mean, would you, what would your parents tell you to do in those situations? Or would they even know that was going on? Yeah, most of the time they didn't even know that was going on, because it wasn't like some beatings, coming home with black eyes, it was just like

a couple punches in the parking lot, you know what I mean, or the smart ones would just be all body shots, so not to mark up the face. But a lot of times parents, I mean, they really didn't know, especially during those times. I mean, the kids were just kind of on their own in everyone's household, you know, and we're just tearing up the neighborhoods and stuff.

But it was, yeah. Did you have, what was your greatest fear as a child? Wow, that's a good question. Greatest fear as a child would be that something would happen to my mother. Really? Yeah. Do you know why you feared that the most? Um, hang on a second.

Because I never really thought about it, what was my greatest fear? Because that wasn't a conscious thought, that was me thinking of it right now, looking back. My greatest fear growing up was that the older boys were gonna whip my ass. You know what I mean? Who just lived right across the street. You know what I mean? So how do you E and E around this?

But that was the greatest, a big fear. Yeah, that would be at the time. All right. Do you think that your father's trouble with alcohol affected you in any way? It did. We didn't have a great relationship growing up. And being an alcoholic myself, you know an alcoholic myself, I understand why now.

At the time, he didn't have the ability to engage in meaningful conversations in depth about emotions, about preparing. One of those questions that was asked asked, you know what I mean? How would you prepare for something? He didn't, you know, so none of those kind of conversations. He was just the rule enforcer, you know what I mean? His household and again, no blame to him knowing what I do now, but it was, yeah, didn't really,

we didn't have a great relationship as far as learning, other than me learning how to work hard. Makes sense, makes sense. What about, you know, you had mentioned you were really into football. Would you consider yourself an athlete back then, or was it more of a hobby? No, I was, yeah, I was an athlete,

because I wanted to be better in football. And so I hit the weights, you know, at a young age, you know what I mean? So I hit the gym. So I mean, I was putting in hard work at the gym. And I mean, and I was in small town, South Florida. Football is religion. You know what I mean? It is what everybody in the town talks about. You know what I mean? It is what everybody in the town talks about, you know what I mean? So it's really all that anyone ever cares about. So being good at that

was a good thing. And always, I wanted to be stronger, I wanted to be faster, I wanted to be all those things. And again, I was a skinny kid, so it took a lot of work. So natural ability or personal drive? I had some natural ability in there for sure. I just was lacking on the size and strength a lot of times as far as that piece. Yeah. But I was in and I got working out has always been good medicine for me as far as self-medication, right?

We always talk about everybody's got it. Like working out always sorted out my emotions, sorted out, you know, we got my energy levels back down to not being like super pissed off or super sad or super anything, you know, just, hey, just get tired enough, you know, and you'll be kind of all right. But, and I just, I love lifting weights, man.

You know what I mean? I just loved everything about it. But I always had that, like I said, that desire to be in the military, which meant you had to be strong. You know, you had, you know, I mean, like I said, I'm in my 50s, like Rambo was the thing, you know? I mean, Chuck Norris, like, man, like that was what I, you know what I'm saying?

That's what I grew up on, man. And not just only did I just want to be in the military, I wanted to be in the Ranger Regiment. Like everything- You knew exactly what you wanted to be. Oh yeah, man, I wanted to be a Ranger. And then that like got solidified whenever, because you know, technology was minimal back then.

It was, didn't even have cordless phones. So it was just magazines and articles and reading stuff about it and TV shows or movies. But then one time they had army recruiters, had some guys come in and they had some rangers come in. And I just remember looking at these guys, and they're at that time, this is late 80s, they're all high and tights, lean, you know what I mean?

And this one guy, he talked about something just this simple, he was like, he was a little cocky E5, you know what I mean? He was just like, yeah, I'm a Ranger, you know, and this is my house, you know, at his Ruck on. He's like, everything that is valuable in my life is in that. And I take it wherever I go. I was like, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life. Like, I want everything that is about me to be in one pack in that that, yeah, I mean, so I was all in on the ranger thing.

Like that's all I ever wanted to do, right? What's the hilarious thing about it is the one thing that I never got to do in my whole military career. That's interesting. I was, I don't recall saying that in the timeline. You would say, yeah. But, so when did you finally enlist?

So my uncle and my grandfather, being the big influencers that they are, they're both enlisted guys, right? And so they're like, hey, because they knew I'm going to join the Army. I wanted to enlist right out of high school, like period in the story, that's what I wanted to do. And they both said, is like, hey, well, if you're gonna join, then you need to be an officer.

I'm like, well, I don't wanna be an officer. They're like, okay. Because how I was raised, like you did what you were told by men that you respected, you know? And I'm like, okay, well, I guess I'll go be an officer, which so I got some college time. But again, I was, I was a mess, man. I was an angry, emotional mess, you know, already an alcoholic, you know what I mean? I was already that guy that always drank too much. You know what I mean? You know, that guy that you're like, bro.

Yeah. For real? What age did that start? Probably 16. Yeah, man, that was a huge part, you know? And the thing about, because it's such a huge part of the story, you know, all the way to Warrior's Heart,

as we go through the story, it's like my life's work is now at Warrior's Heart. Everything that I experienced along the way is put into practice there. But even, alcohol, man, was the only thing that made me feel normal. If I wasn't drinking, I was full of restless, irritable, discontent, shame, guilt, remorse, anxiety, panic attacks.

Like that's what it felt like to not have a drink and be afraid all the time, like all of that. But it presented as like, oh, I'm just this shy country boy. You know what I mean? He doesn't say much. It's like, because I had all of that going on inside of me and when I took some drinks,

it all just settled in. And it just made me feel like how I thought you felt. You know what I mean? It's like, I just was normal and I could come out and play. And that's what made me an alcoholic, you know? Cause there's some people that are just drink too much and are hard drinkers, and there's alcoholics who there's a chemical reaction

that occurs, you know what I mean? And it's a physiological thing. So if I didn't have to feel as bad as I felt with just by taking drinks, then I'm gonna do that as often as I can, you know? And I did. And I'd be lying to you if I didn't say I had a ton of good times drinking,

because I did. You know, I mean, I had a whole bunch of really, really good times drinking. But then those times got less and less. And then at the end of my drinking, it was nothing but bad. But at those times, yeah, from the time 16 on, man, I was just partying, you know,

being a teenager and drinking too much. And so then I go to college. So I was at a community college, but I was participating in Florida State, their ROTC program, because they had an exchange there. I didn't make the grades to be at Florida State, but I was at their, so I got to go through jump school.

So I went through airborne school as a cadet. Oh really? I sure did, in 1989. And so I went to jump school. And then of course, like I said, I already was wanting to do it. And I'd been to like a ROTC basic camp, you know, and that was kind of whatever, okay, good.

And so, but then my grades were going horribly. I was getting into more trouble, you know, it was just bad. And so I left Tallahassee after I'd been to jump school, successfully completed that. And then, but I wasn't contracted and I didn't have a scholarship. So I was just this dude that had gone to airborne school. So hold on.

So when you went through airborne, was it all cadets? Or were you mixed in with active duty guys? Mixed in all, just a regular airborne class. So what was that like? Being introduced to that. It was super hard. Because I was just this dumb ass civilian guy. Yeah.

You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, I was a tough kid. I was in shape and everything. But I never had to do any military stuff. You know, like, hey, when I got tired of running, I'd stop. I didn't know what it was like to, like, yeah, if you stop running, you're going to get kicked out of this course. You know, so having to be pushed.

Yeah, but it was a lot. But the cool thing about it is that uncle of mine, he was still on active duty at that time. And on my fifth jump, on my graduating jump, him and his best friend, we got to do my fifth jump together. Like he was number one, I was two, and his buddy was number three at Airborne School.

So it was epic, man. You know what I mean? It was, and those guys, they had been static line jumpers their whole career, Vietnam vets, you know, and like, you know, over 200 static line jumps. Wow. Amazing they still upright, you know? Yeah. Yeah, so. Wow. It's amazing they can still up right, you know? Yeah.

Yeah, so yeah, but that was a normal class. Went and did that. And then, didn't make it there anymore. School wise, more trouble. So I just went to the recruiter. I don't know if you've got a recruiter story, but most people have recruiter stories. So I'm super cocky, you know what I mean?

I'm what, 20 years old, you know, and been to airborne school, you know, so I was already ridiculously cocky anyway. And so I go into the recruiter and I was like, hey man, get me on the next thing smoking out of here. So I signed up on a two year 11 X x-ray contract because again my plan was I'm going to enlist got me off probation early also. What were you hold on what were you on probation for? So just normal redneck stuff from shooting signs with a shotgun in the city limits you know.

Nice. Yeah so got off probation early. That was a good thing, but I signed up, and I, in my mind, you know, me and, hey, I'm already everywhere qualified. I'm gonna be an 11 Bravo infantryman. I'm gonna go to, at the time they called it RIP, Ranger Indoctrination Program, you know, and get into the Ranger regiment.

That's what was happening next. So the recruiter, so I signed a two-year 11 X-ray, which means not the identifier of what you were going to do. I'm like, OK, what does that mean? He's like, yeah, you'll be 11 Bravo. It's just this paperwork. I'm like, OK. So then I'm at basic training.

While I'm at basic training, that was in summer of 1990, Gulf War kicks off or whenever Iraq invaded Kuwait. So that kicks off while I'm at basic. So now, you know, wow, every, I mean, like, I was still in replacement whenever that happened. And so, okay, now that there's a war going on, and man, like I said, me and the military, so at that time in my life, I had read every,

probably every book there ever was written about the Vietnam War, meaning the guys that were in the Vietnam War, all the Rangers, all that. I mean, that was all I could consume. And so in my mind, that was the deal, was trying to get to war. My heroes have gone to war, this parts, you know,

it's like you joined the military, it's like, yeah, I want to go to war. And so that kicked off. And man, when I joined the military, it was like home. You know, I mean, I finally fit, you know, a hundred percent and I was good at it, you know, a hundred percent. And I was good at it. You know, so it was just, cause a lot of, most of the time in my life at that time,

I really didn't fit wherever I was. You know what I mean? Like the college guys, even with the athletes, you know, I just kind of didn't like get my spot. When I got into the military, that was my spot. And then, so then we switched over from, at 4 Benning, it went basic, and then AIT, one site unit training,

so you did both there. So the advanced training, they give you your regular MOS, so they made me an 11 Hotel. I'm like, what is that? No, I'm 11 Bravo. They're like, no, you're 11 Hotel. You were an X-ray, so that means we get to pick. I didn't know that.

So 11 Hotel, I'm like, okay, well, what's that? And it's like, yes, a tow missile gunner, you know, and vehicles, I was like, that's stupid, but okay. But I can still go to RIP, and they're like, nope, they don't take heavy gunnery, they knocked out that part. So then I couldn't go to RIP. So now I can't go. So now the dream has died.

You know what I mean? Now this part of it, you know what I mean? It was like, yeah, totally screwed. I was super pissed off and everything, but I mean, nothing else that I could do. And so when you make it through basic AIT, now it's 11 Hotel. And then they had me, they didn't, my orders,

I mean, everything was all screwed up. Like my airborne wings weren't in there. Cause in my mind, like, Hey, I was going to go to the 82nd, you know, airborne unit. And, and they had me like slotted for first Riley, can Fort Riley, Kansas, like the big red one, and I was like, what is going on? So my uncle was still on active duty at that time. No, he had gotten out of active duty,

but he was still working for the government. Short version, he got me orders to the 82nd. Nice. Yeah, so I was going from there to the 82nd. But prior to that, you know, just like any good movie, you know, what do you do before you go to war? Like, you have to get married, right? Because you get married, you go to war, you get killed, and then you're just a big hero,

you know, and everybody loves you. You know? That's loves you, you know. That's how I saw life anyway. And so, I got married. And so, I met my wife in my senior year of high school. My parents got divorced. I went to a different high school and I met her. And I still remember the first day I ever met her. Like it was one of the weirdest things in my life as far as like I can still picture it in my head the first time that I ever saw her. Like, and it was just like,

yeah, I need to be with that person, you know? And so that's still with that person. And to date I Wonder about her decision-making process, you know what I mean as far as sticking with me and Hold on. Where did you guys meet? We met in high school through a she was a junior in high school I was a senior in high school and I said my parents got divorced just rewind in a little bit. My parents got divorced And I went to my senior year, I started a new high school. And that's where, so I didn't know anyone there.

Had a buddy that I'd met, and he was friends with my future wife, you know, who was there. So he introduced us, and then we were boyfriend and girlfriend throughout that time, the college time. Me joinin' it now, we're getting married. Was she as wild as you were? We were pretty wild. But no, she was not as wild as me,

because I was a little bit off the chain kind of deal. But yeah. So, and the thing about with her, she just always made me feel like it was all right to be me. You know what I mean? It always gave me this encouragement of that I could accomplish whatever I wanted to accomplish.

Like there was just some kind of connection that I could not deny and obviously welcome. You know what I mean? It was just, and I was a knucklehead, man. You know what I was mean? And I was not kind person and she stayed with me, you know, through those times. I mean, we've got a lot of years together, you know,

have gone back and forth. We've traded hats a few times, you know, but yeah, man, but that was, yeah, so from that, we were together from that time, and then we got married, you know, right before I shipped out to go overseas to the Gulf War. And so we got married in South Florida, got up to Fort Bragg, she came up to Fort Bragg,

and she ended up living with my aunt and uncle when I deployed, you know, and they were already over there. I got over there like December of 1990. Well, we're skipping a couple of steps here. So you got into the 82nd. Got into 82nd, that's right. Where were you stationed? At Fort Bragg.

At Fort Bragg. What was it like? Do you have any family history in the 82nd by chance? No, there's like the name history, but not personally that I know. Okay, I know, cause I know you have some lineage that served. Oh yeah.

Well, there is between me and my brother also. Okay. Yeah. What was it like for you to check in? I mean, that's a well-known unit. Yeah. You know, were you excited to be there? Super excited and absolutely terrified.

Because here I was, because we'd come up to North Carolina and visit my uncle. You know what I mean? And we would go to the, he would take me to the gym, on post. We would drive by the 82nd barracks. All this place where I wanted, I mean, it was like, oh my gosh. Yeah. You know, all this special forces stuff wanted, I mean, it was like, oh my gosh.

You know, all this special forces stuff, the museums, everything. I'd already been to all of this stuff as a civilian, you know, and so now I'm coming back and I'm like, okay, now I'm gonna be in this unit and I'm getting ready to go to war. Like, yes, so I was terrified. So you knew you were going to war

before you ever even showed up to the 82nd? Oh, yeah, because it kicked off when I was at basic. You know what I mean? And then pretty much everybody, the majority of the infantry units were deployed to Saudi Arabia at that time. And then in the 82nd, 100% was there. So when I got orders to the 82nd,

even though I still have four Benning, I knew that, hey, I was, it was gonna be like within three weeks, I was gonna be over there. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. What did that feel like? Were you? It was, again, I was,

I didn't have like what we talked about before. I had no emotional tools. My only emotional tool was alcohol. Like, I mean, it was the cure-all, you know what I mean? It was like, hey, I wasn't always insanely drunk, but I always had drinks, you know? I mean, I always had beer or shots or whatever. And so obviously a lot of emotions going on.

And for me, all that I would translate those emotions into was anger and hate and violence, because I can deal with that. I don't deal with sorrow and sadness and anxiety. So what it felt like going on one hand, I was like, I'm living the dream. Now I'm like living the dream. Like now I'm stepping into a world that I've been reading about in books my whole life. You know, hey, I'm gonna be able to do what my heroes, you know what I mean, have done. You know, so on that one hand, I was like, hell yeah. You know, like winning the Super Bowl kind of deal.

And then on the other hand, I was absolutely terrified because I was still a civilian, man. And even though what I experienced in post 9-11 was nothing compared to the minimal that I experienced going from the street to, you know what I mean, a combat zone and to war was significant and had a huge impact on me. Yeah. What was it like checking into the unit?

That I, in 82nd? Yeah. So it was, you know, went to Saudi Arabia, got to Saudi Arabia, and then, cause then we didn't move forward until January once the ground war and then cross. So when I got to my unit, and man, it was crazy. Like we had this thing called the Thunderdome.

It was like almost a whole brigade of folks and they called it Champion Main. That was just what they called it. I remember what town it was in. It was basically almost a full brigade and all the artillery elements, infantry elements in one open bay with just cots.

So it was called the Thunderdome, right? Because the lights go out, soup cans get thrown, like all kinds of, it was just ridiculous. But so I get to my unit and you know what I mean? And there's all these Vietnam vets that are still in. You know what I mean? So it was like, holy cow, you know, I'm? And there's all these Vietnam vets that are still in. You know what I mean? So it was like, holy cow. You know, I'm just like wide open.

And then there's all these ruffians, you know, young guys, my age guys that have been there longer. A lot of the unit that I went to was first of the 504th Parachute Infantry Resument. So that unit the year prior had jumped into Panama. So a lot of these guys, you know what I mean, had gold stars on their jump wing, had experienced a little bit of combat already. And I'm this new guy showing up. Yeah, man. So

it was a lot, but I was prepared for that. Like I said, growing up, I'd been fighting folks that were bigger than me and figuring stuff out, surviving real quick, real fast. But I was just super pumped, obviously nervous, and then met with my platoon that I was assigned to. The funny thing is that, I didn't even think we'd get this deep, but I guess we are, is like at that, back in those days anyway, is like at that,

you know they have, back in those days anyway, they had cherry parties, they called them, you know, for the new guy, you know what I mean? And usually well as that is, is that they rough you up, scuff you up, and they give you a red belly, you know what I mean? Like pull your shirt up, smack the shit out, you know, it ain't fun, but it's not anything stupid,

you know what I mean, like. Minor hazing. Yeah, minor hazing kind of deal. And so I knew that that was gonna happen at some point, you know, but I didn't know how this world worked. You know what I mean? I'm used to looking out for me. You know what I mean?

Like, and so they were, my buddies, and I made good friends right off the get-go. Certain guys you click up with, make just connections immediately. And they're like, hey Tom, sorry so and so, he wants to meet down at the motor pool. It's like late at night.

Well, I'm like, what for? And he's like, I don't know, man. He just said it's super important. Come down here. And I'm like, well, I'm like, what for? He's like, I don't know, man. He just said super important, you know, come down here. And I'm like, hmm, okay. And so, I mean, I'm an E1, you know what I mean? Oh, E2, I got promoted to E2, you know, out of basic. And so I'm the lowest guy there. So I get down there and I see how everybody's

kind of posturing and like, you know, my Spidey senses, you know, where I'm like, man, something's going to go on. And I'm not thinking about a cherry party, you know what I mean? I'm thinking like, man, these guys want to whip my ass. And I'm like, all right. You know, and so, and then one came in on me, you know, and then I knew, so then it was,

that's like, wasn't like fist throwing fights, but it was like, it was coming there. And then once I finally got one guy down and I cocked bat and then somebody said like, give him a red belly. And I was like, oh, this is what they call a cherry party. You know what I mean? It's like, so it's not a full on fight, you know? So I got my little cherry party thing there with that.

And I was in the platoon, you know, I mean, I was I was good Yeah, so that was what it was like man. A lot of senior guys may have so many good NCOs, you know, I mean guys that were showing me the ropes, you know right from the get-go I mean we were getting ready to go into combat, you know I mean, so some of them themselves a lot of them hadn't been there before, some of them had, you know, so it was just, and I just was learning from all of them. I mean, as we go through my story, you'll see this theme of these strong men that are in my life that's showing me the way

if I'm open to listen to them, you know? And so it was just about training and learning and getting me up to speed with all of that stuff. And then January, the air war kicked off, like we moved up to the border. And then air war kicked off. And then we went in February, it was the ground war. But it was kind of hilarious.

Cause it was, I didn't get into personally, I didn't, a lot of guys got into a lot of serious fights during that time. I wasn't, I wasn't in any big fights, you know, during that time. We were, we were following behind the French Foreign Legion, their armor element. Interesting. Yeah, so you can imagine what the aftermath of that was, you know, and we're in deuce and a halfs and five tons because we were a light infantry unit.

I mean, we had our tow missiles and our thermals and Humvees and stuff, none of it armored. And so we were just falling around. So it was a really big suck fest, but it was that same fear of war and seeing wars devastation, and seeing a lot of innocent getting destroyed

along with the bad. It was a really, really eye-opener for me. We cleared a bunch of bunkers, had a lot of interactions with, a lot of Iraqis surrendered to us, that stuff, but I personally didn't get into any big fights. But I definitely got, other than the fighting aspect of it

for me personally, I got the full picture of what, you know, how awful war is. If you didn't get any fights, how did you, what gave you that picture? What did you see? Oh, so we seen, like whenever we would come through some villages that had been bombed before, you know what I mean? So you'd see what you'd normally see it in a village that got bombed, you know what I mean?

As far as the innocent folks, the bad guys, you know, burn up, blowed up, that kind of piece on highways that we were cross. Cause we just crossed hundreds of miles of desert, you know, and set up checkpoints until we got to the end but um and then so did you see a lot of casualties a lot of casualties yeah what kind of emotions were going through you when you saw your first dead bodies what kind of emotions were you see women did you see see children? Yeah, I did.

It was, I was pretty numb because I was pretty emotionally overwhelmed. From when I was hyping myself up to not be so afraid. Yeah. You know, cause that was what was going on and being hard and you know, and that kind of stuff, which was necessary. So I was just like, man, that's so screwed up.

You know what I mean? That it's like, but I under, I had read so many books and stuff before. So even though it was books, I had a, and a lot of those guys that I was reading before, you know what I mean? Those Vietnam vets and especially the, you know what I mean?

They talked about this thing that I was now seeing. You know, they talked about some of them in a much more graphic details of how horrible aspects of war is and war poems that they had written. Just the heartfelt, the other side of war. Yeah, there is the glory and there is good against bad, teams, that piece, yes, that's real,

but also this other piece is real. But it really affected me, teams, you know, that piece, yes, that's real, but also this other piece is real. But it really affected me, again, because I was already an emotional mess without any tools, so my only response to that was more hardness, you know, just being more like, yeah, this is war, this is what it's like. You know, just, that's 20 years old. You know? Yeah, so I experienced all of that piece.

Turned 21 in Iraq. I've got several birthdays deployed, but turned 21 in Iraq. So I couldn't go out to a bar or drink or nothing. And then so nothing really big significant came back from Iraq. So two things that happened after I got back from Iraq, it was on the military side of the house, man, I was on my way, you know,

I was, so I couldn't go to the Ranger Regiment, so my next step was that we'll at least get to Ranger School. So on the military side, I was excelling. Got my Expert Infantryman's badge, go to pre-Ranger. All of that's excelling, but my personal life is coming apart, which was super weird to me. And I didn't make the connection that it was alcohol

was the main thing. There was a whole bunch of things, but you know, hey, alcohol was the major catalyst of all these second and third order effects of. When you say your life was coming apart, how so? So meaning that, so number one, I had no emotional tools. Number one, and I'm with this wonderful human being

of a woman, I've experienced war. I've gotten even more harder and more angrier and more violent. So I'm just kind of going down the food chain of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, to almost a survival kind of frame in a peaceful environment. So the only people that I'm comfortable with is guys that I went to war with, and military guys.

And then emotional stability was not there. I couldn't provide all the other aspects that my wife needed from me. She gave me to be there emotionally, physically, in every kind of way. And I was pretty good whenever I wasn't drinking. I was a pretty decent human being. But as soon as I started drinking,

just I started getting that mean level. So then there began to be problems with her and I. Obviously our relationship wasn't doing good. It was just going downhill with no hope in sight on the personal side. So that's where, but I didn't know that there was another way. Did you have any kids at the time?

No, thank God. No, it did not. It was just us. And I didn't know that there was another way, like what we were talking before, like, hey, no, this is what warriors do. Like, we get drunk, we whip people's asses, and everybody is terrified of us. That's what makes you a warrior, in my mind at that time. So I wasn't about to give any of that up.

But it would always bleed over into my family life, because it always does. One always bleeds into the other. If I'm having problems at home, then that's gonna bleed into work. If I'm having problems at work, that's gonna bleed into home, eventually. So that's what was happening at that point. But on the military side, man,

I mean, within the first two years, like, you know, I got my expert infantryman's badge. It went to pre-ranger twice. I failed, I mean, I passed both times, but it was just, you had to go to ranger school within 30 days. And let me back up a little bit. So when I got to the unit, got back from the Gulf War,

started doing that, we're just in peacetime training, everything's wonderful, back into doing it. I'm trying to get into Ranger school. So we got a new platoon sergeant. And my platoon sergeant was Vietnam vet. So this was a conventional army unit, right? The 82nd. But here are the players that are in this unit, right?

Just a conventional unit. So, first brigade, right? The 504th. So General Abbezade, you remember Abbezade from the global war on terror, you know? General Abbezade you remember Abbasade from the global war on terror, you know, General Abbasade? Can you talk about him for a second? Yeah.

Why he was influential? He was our brigade commander at that time. So, and then one of the battalion commanders was General McChrystal. Wow. And then, so you've got that epic of human beings in the 82nd in this particular regiment. And it was all throughout. So it wasn't like you just had the,

and then like, you know, guys sprinkled in there, lower enlisted, you know, that had, they're not leaning, they're NCOs, but you know, they got over 20 years in and stuff and they're E7 cause they've been busted three times, you know, and, but there he was a door gunner in Vietnam on three tours. You know what I'm saying? So I've got these kind of people, Sergeant Major Hogard,

who's the book Charlie Rangers, you know, he's in that book, you know what I mean? So that I read, and now he's my Sergeant Major. You know what I mean? So that's the men, that's the warriors that is around me as a PFC in the 82nd, you know what I mean? With this level of folks, you know? So my platoon sergeant at the time,

the only PFCs that could go to Ranger school were in Ranger regiment, only PFCs could go. If you weren't in ranger regiment, you had to be a specialist in E4. I was only a PFC. But my platoon sergeant said, hey, go to, he knew I wanted, what do you wanna do? Hey, this is what I wanna do.

He's like, okay, so battalion was running a pre-ranger, a little pre-selection for a pre-ranger, you know? So, cause you know the military, pre to pre to pre. And so I was like, yeah, but I'm only a PFC. He's like, yeah, shut up, go do what I tell you. Okay. So I ended up making, you know, getting the top bracket to go to pre ranger.

So I go to pre ranger pass, then they screwed up. I've always had bad hearing from shooting weapons without hearing aid, just growing up. You know, and so it delayed my, me being able to put in for orders to go. So then they informed me that, hey, pre-ranger is only good for 30 days. So I had to do pre-ranger again.

That totally sucked. Past, and so now I've met the criteria to go to ranger school for the 82nd, you know, as a member of the 82nd. Except for one thing, I'm a specialist. So then the command finds out, they're like, what the fuck? Like Spooner's, he's a PFC. And it's like, and so we're gonna lose it. The division's gonna lose a slot

because they only got a couple slots, you know, for the whole division. And like all of this and that. And my platoon sergeant looks at him and says like, yeah, or you can promote him to specialist. Nice. Right, because he's the old wise guy, you know, and because he didn't even brief me in on that, you know,

I'm just, everybody's wanting to kill me, you know, like what the fuck, what, how, you know? And I was like. I'm just, everybody's wanting to kill me. Like, what the fuck, what, how? And I was like, I'm just doing what I'm told. And then platoon sergeant's like, yeah. So of course, in order to not lose the slot, I got promoted to specialist at like year and a half. And then went to Ranger school. Went to Ranger school and recycled mountains,

but made it through Ranger school, graduated. And now I'm back. you know what I mean? As an E-4, in the 82nd, with a ranger tab. Like at that time, the only people in the ranger tabs in 82nd were officers or guys that, you know, had come from regiment at some point in time, you know. There was a few others, but not a lot. And so I was just like golden boy. So whatever school I wanted, I got promoted early,

got this, it was just like, so professional life was incredibly good, personal life, absolute wreck. And finally that personal life collapsed, you know, and my wife's like- How did it collapse? It collapsed because I wouldn't stop drinking. And we had gotten to the point and my wife's like how did it collapse? The class cuz I wouldn't stop drinking and we had gotten to the point with my wife where she's like if you keep drinking It's over. Well, let's get a little more specific. Okay. No How did it collapse? Like what were you doing on the off time?

What was why was she gonna leave you? Was she a drinker? Yeah, but not much at that time. I was training her to drink at that time. So what happened was like internally, I was emotionally a wreck that, you know, I mean, alcohol was the only thing that was keeping me going. I mean, the fact that I hadn't gotten a DUI,

that I had gotten put in jail, that I had, you know what I mean? I was a ruffian, man. What was it, were you cheating on her, was it bar fights? No, I wasn't cheating on her, it was fighting, and I would be a blackout drunk, so I would do, say horrible things, do horrible, you know what I mean, like I would fight,

I would, I mean, it was just no matter who was around, what was around, inappropriate all the times. And she was afraid to be with me. How many nights a week? At least five. Five nights a week? Yeah, I mean, and then over the time, especially at the end, like the last couple months

of my drinking, man, the good days were gone. Did that, I was blackout drunk. Yeah. You know, and, and, how do you, I mean, would you be humiliated in the morning? Did you ever, did you wake up a lot knowing that there had been some type of an altercation or whatever and, and you don't even remember

what it was about, but you're still gonna, your ego is still gonna let you play into it and go, I don't even know what I'm pissed off about. I don't know what we argued about, but I'm picking up on the body language from the people around me that I have obviously done something. And I'm just gonna pretend like I know what it is

and ride this out. Yeah, I mean, it would happen all. And a lot of times, I mean, it would, you know, I mean, people would say like, yeah, this is what you did, but I didn't believe them. Because I mean, I would do things when I was drinking that I would never do when I was sober. Like it wouldn't even, I would set myself on fire.

You know what I mean? Like bully someone or like walk up and punch some dude in the face. You know what I mean? Like bully someone or like walk up and punch some dude in the face. You know what I mean? Like something that I would never, like kind of be a bully, like I would never do those kinds of things or be mean to my wife or say mean things to her

or even cuss, you know what I mean? A lot around her, you know what I mean? Those times. And then I'd get drunk and then it was like, yeah, you did this and you said this. And you know what I mean? At first I didn't, I was like, you're lying. Like, why are you making this up?

I mean, it was driving her a little bit crazy too, because I believe that she was lying. Cause I knew that I would never do those things. But nonetheless I was, you know? So all of that had been going on for a long time. I was a mess and the only solution I had was just drive it even harder and faster. You know?

And so then it finally, it was, it got so bad and I couldn't stop this train that I was on. Like, that, and I knew it wasn't gonna end. Like, I'm just a rotten son of a bitch, man, and that's how it is, you know? Alcoholism is a family tradition, you know what I mean? It's just how it is, like, hey, shame on you for tying your wagon to mine, you know?

And that's not how I felt inside, but that's what came out, you know what I mean? Because inside, I mean, I love this person more than life itself. I mean, I had two loves in my life, my wife, in the army. Like at that point in my life. Lost her, because you know, we got, ended up getting separated.

I moved into the barracks. And it was just- You got separated. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was, cause I finally like, hey, if you get drunk tonight, we're over. You know what I mean? I got drunk that night

cause I couldn't not get drunk that night. Of course she knew, cause I told her, yeah. It was like over, you know? So a big blow up, you know, get out. Totally appropriate. She's a smart woman. You know what I mean? Like the best thing she could have done in her life

at that moment was to get away from me, for sure. So I went into the barracks. I moved into the barracks. And meanwhile, like the, no one knows how bad my, so when I asked my platoon sergeant, like, hey, I need to move into the barracks, you know, he's like, why? Because they think I'm this golden boy,

but they don't know me outside of work. You know what I mean? They just know that all of this piece of it. So I come back and ask him like, hey, I need to get a room, you know, and they're like, for what? You know, I'm like, yeah, my wife and I are separated. And they're like, for what?

You know, and it was like, you know, I'm not going to tell him why, You know, I'm like, yeah, my wife and I are separated. And they're like, for what? You know, and I was like, you know, I'm not gonna tell him why, you know, but it was just like, sure, man, whatever you need. You know what I mean? And it was like, okay. So now I moved into barracks. So the hilarious thing about me getting sober, because that's what this is leading into,

is that it's kind of like trying to get sober at the bar. Because all, the most of my drinking started in the barracks cause that's what you do in the barracks, you know? And then, and then we went out and then came back to the barracks. Usually, you know, it's how it all goes. So now I'm in the barracks, not drinking. And, and that's where I'm going to get sober, you know?

So you can get sober. That's, that's testament be like, you can get sober anywhere, anytime, if you'd really just you can get sober. That's testament to be like, you can get sober anywhere, anytime, if you'd really just want to get sober. And yeah, so my wife and I were separated. She was moving on with her life appropriately. The only thing that saved us from getting a divorce right then and there was in the state of North Carolina,

you have to be separated for a year, legally separated for a year before you can get a divorce. So we had put in the paperwork, we were legally separated and, um, she was going on with her life and, uh, and I was going on, uh, with mine, but it just focused on the military and, you know, getting sober. Here's the situation. You've got China, Russia, Ukraine, the border. The banks seem to be collapsing. Plus the Chinese just negotiated with Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Brazil to drop the US dollar.

And most Americans, including myself, feel that we're in a recession right now. But despite all the evidence, I can't tell you what's going to happen for sure. Nobody can. Yet when it comes to your money, you should understand what's at stake. That's why I partnered with GoldCo to possibly help at times like this. Go to SeanLikesGold.com or call 855-936-GOLD to get your free gold and silver kit. The kit shows you how to defend your money with precious metals and how listeners of the show could get up to $10,000 in bonus silver go to Sean likes gold.com or call

855936 gold to get your free gold and silver kit. I can't predict the future but I can certainly prepare for it So go to Sean likes gold.com or call 855936 gold now performance may vary consult with your tax attorney or financial professional before making an SeanLikesGold.com or call 855-936-GOLD now. Performance may vary, consult with your tax attorney or financial professional before making an investment decision. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. We all carry around different stressors, big and small.

And at times we keep carrying them around rather than processing them and letting them go. Keeping everything bottled up can start to affect us negatively. Therapy is a safe place to get things off your chest. Therapy from BetterHelp is helpful for learning positive coping skills and how to set boundaries.

It empowers you to be the best version of yourself. It isn't just for those who've experienced major trauma, it's for everyone. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try. It's entirely online, designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. Just fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist and switch therapists at any time for no additional charge.

Get it off your chest with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash Sean today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash Sean today to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.help.com slash Sean. Afford Anything talks about how to avoid common pitfalls, how to refine your mental models, and how to think about how to think. Paula, while certainly you can mess up on a million dollars a year, it is far less likely than it is on $30,000 a year. I would meet wonderful people that were struggling with a budget that was super tight.

It was a hundred percent. You need to make more money. Make smarter choices and build a better life. Afford anything wherever you listen. So your wife left you. Yeah. Now you're ready to get sober. What was that like?

How did you start to get sober? Yeah, so what got me in the mindset of getting sober was a few things. Or just the idea of it. Because man, what was always going on is, is I've always had people that loved me in my life. Whether it's family, people, but what would go on in my head is like, yeah, but you wouldn't love me if you knew me.

You wouldn't love me if you knew all the things that I had done. You know what I mean? So it was this constant like unworthiness, whether it was real or not, it was real for me. And I would always hurt my family, emotionally, you know what I mean? I would just let them down time after time and time,

and that would always break my heart, which always led to more drinking, because alcohol wasn't my problem, it was my solution. So without my solution, all all I got some problems. So but man, I just got tired of hurting The people that I loved the most and and then my wife and I got when we got separated, you know I mean that that was devastating to me on the inside

Externally, it was just anger and like I don't fucking care you know what I mean like that was external that was like that what I had to display you know because I had nothing else inside was just crushed wrecked hurt how did you feel when your wife told you she's get out one part of it was relief really yeah because I didn't want to hurt her anymore. That's just how jammed up I was as a human being at that time. I have this person in my life that I love more than anyone on this planet who wants to be with me, but I keep pushing her away. who wants to be with me, but I keep pushing her away.

You know what I mean? And now I want her to leave, cause I can't. So part of me was relief, and the other, cause at least I wasn't gonna be hurting her anymore. Then the other part was devastation. Like, oh my God,

like she's my person, you know, like my person. And so, and I really, and so I'd heard about AA cause my dad got sober back in 1988, you know, so this is 92. So four years prior, my dad had gotten sober. I didn't care. Like I said, we didn't have a great relationship.

He's like, he's talking to me, telling me he got sober. He's in AA. I'm like, oh, stupid, weak-ass shit, you know? Where I was at the time. And, but what I couldn't deny was that here was this man, he'd been sober a few years, like I said, I was four, here was this man that had lost it all, right? He lost the family, he lost the job,

he almost lost his life, But here he was sober. He hadn't had a drink in four years, and he was happy. And that perplexed me. You lost your family. You should just be miserable for the rest of your life. I mean, just my mindset was. But undeniably, he was happy, and he said it was because he went to AA, you know, and in God, which that was a different subject too,

because I hated God. You hated God at the time. Hated God. All my life I'd been raised in the church, you know, had wonderful examples of church. I just could never connect with it. And that's not anything negative on church. That was just where I was. I could never relate or understand to the God that they were talking about, how

they were talking about Him. I knew there was a God for sure. I just, for whatever reason, knew that. And I knew that what I had seen in this life, like how rough my life had been, all the innocent people I'd see get destroyed, like, it was like, yeah, man, if there is a God, it's the devil, like, because how could you allow this kind of stuff to go on? Meanwhile, I wouldn't see all the beautiful things that were going on. I was just focused on the negative, because that's where I was at. So my dad had mentioned that, and he had called me, hey, how are you doing?

I'm gonna quit drinking. You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna quit drinking. Because anything I'd ever decided to do in my life, I'd done that I had told myself. I might tell you some shit, that might or might not happen, but anytime I said to me, like, what's the big deal?

I'm just gonna quit drinking, you know? Well, the big deal, if you're an alcoholic and you quit drinking, things get bad. And then if you stay stopped drinking, they get worse. And then if they stay stopped drinking, they get some tolerable until I have to have a drink. I have to, you know. So, yeah, so that's why I wanted to get sober, man. But really, like down in my heart, but my heart was covered up by a whole bunch of heaps of other not good stuff, you know,

it was just all this stuff blocking me. And, But in my heart, that's what I wanted. I wanted what was best for my wife and all of that. And I wanted to be better. But in my head, I was just so screwed up and pissed off. So I went to AA at first just for another reason that I might could get back my wife, manipulation. Like, hey, I'm going to AA. You know, wanna get back together?

So there was another side of just the relief. Yeah. What's that again? There was another side. You said you felt relief when she said she wanted you to leave. So there was a whole other side to this. Yeah, the other side of it was that, again, I hated hurting her the whole time. And now that she wasn't going to be in my life, then therefore I could not hurt her again.

How long did it take you to... How do I put this? How long did it take you to realize that you needed her? Because now you're playing manipulation games trying to get her back. How long did that take? Oh, it was instantly the manipulation games. Again, I was so kind of twisted up inside. Like I was relieved that I'm not gonna hurt her, but I know I can't live without her.

So now I'm gonna manipulate the situation to try to get her back. Like that's a mess. I think they call it a hot mess nowadays. And so when you decided to go to AA, did you not have any intentions of actually getting sober? This was just a way to manipulate.

I had intent, the thing that I did have an intention of was not drinking anymore, right? Cause I was like, I finally fully realized and understood that number one, I can't drink like regular people. Like I take a drink and then all this happens. These other people, they take drinks and then they just kind of stop drinking or whatever.

You know what I mean? I always thought they were weird. But I did not want to drink anymore, but I didn't think AA would work. It was all a bunch of bullshit. AA is for a bunch of damn weak people that can't control their own lives. That's my mindset going in there.

So for the first amount of time, meanwhile I'm in the barracks, still doing the duty day, still working, still doing the army stuff, but I'm going to these AA meetings at night and I'm reading the AA book, the blue book, you know, and it's got the 12 steps in it, you know. And so I'm reading that book, but I'm not, there's a lot of things they recommend,

like, hey, you go to a meeting, obviously you don't drink, you go to meetings, you get a sponsor, which is someone who guides you, you know, through sobriety, and you go through the steps, and work the steps with a sponsor. I wasn't doing none of that. I was, because again, I got real problems, man. Like you're saying this little bullshit stuff

is not going to help me, and plus I'm damaged. Like y'all can't help me anyway. Like I'm rotten. But anyway, so I'm going through it and Why do you I mean, why did you think you were that rotten? I mean because you're so yeah I'm I feel like we might be missing something because all of the stuff that you're describing is pretty common everyday life for a

Combat infantrymen. Yeah special opera anybody who life for a combat infantryman, special ops, anybody who's in a combat role, at least in that time period, I don't know how it is today, but it seems pretty par for the course. And so I'm wondering, where's the extra guilt coming from? The extra guilt is coming from,

I ended up becoming the guy that I hated the most. Meaning the bully. You know what I mean? The guy that would take advantage of situations. You know what I mean? That was mean, that was nasty, that was ugly to people. You know what I mean?

I ended up becoming the person that I hated more than anything. Like I said, the only thing that was above the level of hate I had for me was God. But just, and growing up there was a lot of things, like I was a mean kid growing up, like to my brother, you know what I mean? So I just always had this, I had always had this unworthy, damaged, so self-concept is what, you know, a lot of people talk about, right, as, and that's what we are talking about. So my self-concept was, is that, is that whether it was real or in my head, my self-concept was, is that I was a damaged human being and didn't deserve anything good in this life other than to suffer.

That's what went on here. Some of that was justified in actions that had happened, a lot of it maybe something people said, you know, experiences that I'd had or that I had come up with myself. So that's basically where I was as a human being at that time. And I really, I'd already lost my wife. The next thing was the army. Cause I mean, I just hadn't gotten caught drunk on duty. I hadn't got caught drunk and drunk, you know what I mean?

Like, you know what I mean? The only difference between me and Guy in prison or in the ground is inches and seconds. You know what I mean? Like, you know what I mean? The only difference between me and Guy in prison or in the ground is inches and seconds. You know what I mean? That's it. The only difference. I didn't want getting caught. But I mean, I'm not an idiot.

Like, I keep doing it. Like, you know, statistics have, it's gonna happen. So, so I didn't want, I'd already lost number one thing and I'm about to lose number two, you know, if I drink. So I was solid on not wanting to drink. And I wanted to drink so bad I couldn't stand it. Cause again, drinking wasn't my problem, it was my solution, you know.

And so eventually I got a, a few things happened, you know, I got promoted to Sergeant. Again, I'm this golden boy militarily. Now my wife and I are separated, but I'm really focused on getting sober. I've done a lot of hard things in my life, a lot of really hard things. To date, for me, the hardest thing that I've ever done my entire life is early sobriety. Because I was having to change core beliefs,

change how I'd acted my whole life, change every person, place, or thing. You know what I mean? I was, I only had to change one thing my whole fucking life. You know what I mean? And I'd never been able to do that before. So doing that, like no kid not talking about it, like actually putting in the work and doing that

and continuing to not drink was the hardest thing that I'd ever done. I mean, that's why a lot of guys don't stay sober. Because it's hard. The reason why a lot of guys don't make it to the seals, because it's hard. Like, you know what I mean? Any super hard thing that's worthy in life

takes an incredible, enormous amount of work. And for me, to date, that's the hardest that I've ever done. But I was making it harder on me because I wasn't doing what was suggested. Like, hey, idiot, here's the plan. Like, when I went to ranger school, I went to pre-ranger, I followed the regulations, you know what I mean? The ranger handbook, like all of that stuff.

It was like, hey man, there's a book, follow the book, you get the results. Just like the gym. Like, hey, you wanna get stronger, you go to the gym, you pick up things that are heavy and you move them around. Like, then you go, you get results. The real bottom came whenever I couldn't imagine my life without drinking, and I couldn't imagine my life without drinking, and I couldn't imagine

my life with drinking. And I just hit this surrender point of where I had to go all in. You know what I mean? On this sobriety gig, the steps and sponsors and all this crap that I didn't think would work. So I did, but I resisted that up until the end where I couldn't resist it anymore. So I did, you know, but I resisted that up until the end where I couldn't resist it anymore, you know, and I finally gave up, you know, I surrendered.

When I mean, when I say I gave up, I gave up on trying to do it my way. Like I'm gonna get sober my way. Like, hey, if you can get sober your way, like right on man, go right ahead, but I couldn't, you know. And so I got that sponsor If you can get sober your way, like right on man, go right ahead, but I couldn't, you know, and um so I got that sponsor and And and we started going through the steps

You know, and then I got what I always needed which is relief I drank because I needed relief. I need relief from my emotions from my mental from everything that was going on I need a relief from that alcohol, gave me that peace. Now I don't have alcohol in my life, what am I gonna use to get relief? You know, and the cool thing for me is, was, and it really relates into warrior's heart, you know, when it comes up, but is, I got sober on Fort Bragg.

So I got sober with warriors. You know what I mean? So significantly different atmosphere than being in a civilian AA meeting, you know, or health 12 step group meeting, because I was with military guys, you know, and majority of them were army, you know, it was army based, we had some Air Force mix, but it was mainly. And so we all spoke the same language, same analogy, same, you know what I mean, the military lingo. They would attach spirituality to military decision-making processes.

They would attach sobriety, all these different things to the construct of how my brain worked, which was military-minded, you know? And so it was huge, you know, I got sober with warriors, you know, and like, again, hero warriors, Vietnam vets, like World War II vets, like, holy crap, you know, like these are badass warriors who are sober and also men of God. What? You know, because for me, it was a lot of all or nothing. It was that team mentality, you know,

which I was all into. I'm not judging or hating, you know what I mean? It was like, yeah, a warrior means this. You know what I mean? And then now I'm trying to be this other thing. It didn't fit in that construct of what a warrior, it's like, what am I gonna be? I was really afraid of getting sober too.

It's like, man, am I gonna turn into some kind of hippie? You know, and like, in my mind, and this was just in my mind, but in my mind, if you wanted to follow God, that meant that you, if you gave your life and your will over to God, that meant you put on a white robe and you went down to South America

and that's what you did for the rest of your life, was tell people about God. Why do you wanna to do that? I want to be a warrior, man. I'm just getting started. 22 years old, I've got this military career that's just, I mean, I'm going somewhere. I don't know if I'll get my wife back or not,

but it's terrifying, the idea of trusting in God. For me, it was, because it meant, I didn't know what it meant. Did it mean I have to give up my life or what? I didn't know. But through that process of going through the steps, you know what I mean, with my sponsor, that process alone clears away all the wreckage of the past.

If you do it, if you follow the directions, you get the results, you know? And for me, that's what was life-changing. Obviously I'm condensing it down a whole lot, but it's for the first time in my life, you know, by clearing away the wreckage of my past and making amends to the best of my ability and having a fellowship, you know,

meaning of men in my life, women also, but stronger with the fellowship of men and they held me accountable and encouraged me, you know, I mean, and busted my ass when I needed it. You know, I had a God in my life, my own personal God for the first time in my life. It was amazing. I was happy, joyous, and free without drinking for the first time my entire life.

How long did it take you to get to the 12 steps? How long did you give yourself? Or I guess a more appropriate question would be, from the time you decided you wanted to stop drinking to the time that you hit bottom. Yeah. What was that timeframe? 62 days. 62 days?

And I know it was 62 days. Yeah, from the time I had stopped and then I just resisted, went to meetings and had a book and read the book, had stopped and then I just resisted, went to meetings and had a book and read the book, but not all then. That was 62 days and then that was the surrender moment. Then I got a sponsor and was on board

and I told my sponsor, I was like, so here's the deal, man, I'm gonna do whatever you, this is me telling my sponsor, like, here's the deal, man. Here's the deal, man, like, that's how arrogant I am. This is how I'm gonna do this. Yeah, this is how arrogant I am. I said, I'm gonna do whatever you tell me to do. 100%. I'm gonna do what this book tells me to do 100%. I'm gonna do what these steps say to do 100%.

And when this shit doesn't work, I'm gonna go get drunk. And he said, deal. I'm like, what? He's like, yeah, man. That's all you gotta do is try. You do all that stuff, that's all I'm asking. So my friend, he's like, yeah, man. I'm like, I'm gonna's like, yeah, man, that's all you gotta do is try. You do all that stuff, that's all I'm asking.

So my intention was to prove that that shit didn't work for a damaged person like me, and I got sober. So intention, that was the absolute horrible intention. You know what I mean? Like to prove that it didn't work and I got all the goods out of it and all the wonderful miracles that came from it. That what it reinforces is action is all that matters.

Do the actions, do the work. Don't think about it, don't pray about it. Like do the work, like going in the gym. If you look at how we go into the gym, you can watch all these YouTube videos, me and you can talk about it all day long. We can make up a plan and we would just geek out on it. But until we go in there and start lifting heavy things,

nothing's gonna happen. When did your wife come back? So see, it was a little less than a year. We were separated almost a year. Wow. Yeah, and during that time, all I was doing was working and recovery. People talk about recovery, it's like, what does that mean?

It's like, what are you recovering? You know, I'm in recovery, I'm recovered. I was trying to recover me. You know what does that mean? It's like, what are you recovering? You know, man, if I'm in recovery, I'm recovered. I was trying to recover me. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's what recovery is about, is I'm trying to recover myself. Meaning, because at my heart, and my true self is a really good, solid human being.

But I've got all these traumas, and I've got all this mess, and I've got all these bad behaviors, and I've got all these traumas and I've got all this mess and I've got all these bad behaviors and I've got all this bullshit in the way of me just being me. You know what I mean? So in recovery, I'm shy. I'm two date for 31 years.

I'm still trying to recover all the pieces that are me because life goes on and you're always presented with more trauma. You know? What was it that brought her back? I mean, so she leaves, you attempt for 62 days, there's two months, so she made you go 10 months silver. Yeah.

With no really intention to my knowledge of her getting back because I was always, during that time, I gave her her space. Like all the minute, when I said I was all in on the recovery process, meaning I couldn't manipulate anymore, couldn't lie anymore. I was to be honest. I was to be true. I was to be authentic. You know what I mean? All these things I'd never accomplished before in my life. And she knew that too, you know, and so I gave her space, you know what I mean? I mean, I would, you know, every opportunity that I had, you know what I would get, because my sponsor, right,

man, he sent me straight right from the get-go, because he asked me, hey, what do you love? The normal get to know kind of questions, like, what are your loves? What are your loves? Like, man, I love my wife, and he said, well, what do you want for her? I was like, I want her to be happy.

And it was absolutely my heart, I wanted her to be happy. All that I'd put her through, the wonderful person that she is, like I wanted her to be happy. He said, okay, you want her to be happy. He's like, well, what if that doesn't include you? You still want her to be happy? And I was like, yeah.

Because in my mind, that her being happy, I was somewhere in my picture, you know? But when he put it to me like nuts and bolts, kind of like that, you know, and my answer was yes. You know, like, but it hit me, it like really settled, like, like really, like unconditionally. You'd never thought about that possibility? Hell no, man, I'm a selfish guy like me.

I want what I want when I want it. You know what I'm saying? Like, used to getting it, and it was like, wow. That was a real question that required a real answer. Like right now, you know, and I said yeah, and I was like, damn. But it also freed me up, because there was no more game. You know what I mean?

Like I was to be me, and whatever that meant, trying to figure it out, you know, and then whatever, if we got back together, we got back together. The only thing that I have made sure for me, and did, was I stayed, you know what I mean? I didn't have a girlfriend,

I wasn't seeing anybody else. I was truly just, because if there was any chance of her and I getting back, it meant that I had to be single. If I was in a relationship, then obviously we could never get back. I'm trying to live a life of honesty and all. So I had to like not, to remain single,

which was another skill set in and of itself. So I really was getting sober mind, body, and spirit, not just dry, meaning not having a drink. I was working on every part of my life. And I loved it. And I was with the men that I wanted to be with. So I'm still with my heroes. I'm still with the Vietnam vets.

I'm still with the World War IIs. I'm meeting these giants of human beings. Like, again, we read my resume, not minimizing me, but my resume compared to those guys' resume, man, is like, doing good, kid, you know? No. Do another 20 years, maybe you'll be all right, you know? Again, not in minimizing what I did or self-deprecating,

but like, dude, these guys were like World War II Korea and Vietnam veterans. I can't believe you are in with World War II vets. That's incredible, man. Yeah. There wasn't any on active duty at the time, but I was in recovery with all those guys. That's still like just the greatest generation.

Epic, man. I mean, yeah. I mean, I can go on and on for days with the... Because I chose to have the willingness to be around these folks, the amount that I learned and the stories that I heard, which enabled me to make it the way that I did, again, it comes back to... It all goes back to them, you know, kind of deal. So, I'm getting, now I'm sober.

Oh, and how we got back together was, is that I just kept putting in the work and was consistent for the first time ever. And then she really believed like, holy crap, this guy's not gonna get drunk again. Cause she didn't believe it, nor should she should have. But, and wow, I was kind. I was like, I was, this guy's not going to get drunk again. Because she didn't believe it, nor should she should have. But wow, I was kind. I was a solid, consistent, predictable human being.

And so we got back together. And we got back together. And then- Who reached out to who? I reached out to her, to Minas Faras. Because I was always reaching out at every opportunity, not being manipulative, but just like, hey, would you like to go out to her, you know, to mean as far as, because I was always reaching out at every opportunity, not being manipulative, but just like, hey, would you like to go out to dinner sometime?

Like, hey, you want to go out to the farm? You know, a lot of times it was no, and that was okay, and I had to be, but so we got back together. But you got a yes. What's that? You got a yes. I got, eventually got a yes. So what was that like to reconnect with her

for the first time? Oh my God, man. Where did you go? Yeah, so it was, we were just out at, it unfolded, right? That's what I learned about living in my God's world, is I always work hard and I make plans and stuff, but man, if I just allow things to unfold,

like my God has the best of things waiting for me if I just don't screw them up. How do we keep me out of the picture? So we had just, we met up and we were like at my uncle's farm, my aunt and uncle's farm, and we were just hanging out talking. And then one thing led to another and she missed me terribly, because I wasn't a jackass anymore. She couldn't blame me anymore, just on the past stuff, but in the near future, I was decent.

And she just was like, yeah, let's, because I'm in the whole time. She knew I was willing and able and wanting to be back together. That wasn't a question. The only question was what she wanted to join that party again. And then just one day it was like, yeah.

She's like, yeah, I do. And so then now I had her back, you know what I mean? And I was a different guy, you know what I mean? Truly, you know what I mean? There had been spiritual changes that occurred in me. I was no saint by any means, but I had had a spiritual awakening enough to recover from alcoholism, number one,

meaning I wasn't drunk. And then with that being in place, that I was actually a decent human being. Still a young man learning what young men have to learn. I mean, it didn't rocket ship me into some kind of yoginess. I mean, I still had a lot of hard lessons to learn, but man, I was a good, you know what I mean, solid dude. Yeah, and it was, man, and then from that moment forward,

that was the beginning of acquiring in my mind, zeros and ones, you know, effects, you know, put in the work, get results is like, okay, I put in this work, my wife is now back in my life as a result of that work. Now that's my motivation to keep doing the work. Right, don't get complacent, don't get like, hey, this can be gone.

A lot of people don't, most people don't get complacent. Don't get like, hey, this can be gone. A lot of people don't, most people don't get the opportunity of a second chance. You know, I mean, I know that, you know? So I was gifted this second chance, like, all right, boy, it's on you now, you know? I'm interested to hear what happened with your career. You know, now we're talking about the marriage, the personal life. You know, now we're talking about the marriage, the personal life.

You know, one thing I noticed when I quit drinking two years ago is my career went like this. You know, it was on and upward, but then it went straight up. Oh yeah, man. So I'd already, even a high functioning alcoholic that I was, you know what I mean? Again, I was already a golden boy status, right?

And that was 92. Now we're talking 93 timeframe. And so I'm going to all these other schools, right? So I'm like going to Pathfinder school. I'm going to Jump Master school. Like whatever's available, like I'm going to it and I'm crushing it. You know, and some other things that are happening

along the way is back to the mentors in my life. So that same platoon sergeant, you know, that finagled me into ranger school, you know, through his wizardry. When I became an NCO, you know, an E5 sergeant, meant the PLDC and ranger school and everything, I think, you know, he gave me one piece of information, man, that's still what I do today, you know?

And he asked me, he's like, yeah, so what does it mean to be an NCO? You know, dude, I'm 22 years old, I'm a ranger qualified, E5, you know what I mean? I'm just, but now I'm sober and I'm not this asshole, you know, as much anyway. And it's like mission and health and welfare of the troop. He's like, yeah, yeah, that's true.

You know, and he's like, but what does health and welfare of the troops mean? And I was like, well, I mean, I've been to PLDC. I know the answer, you know, and it's like yes beans and bullets and hey You got to know that what family you know, how many kids they have and you got to know what problems they have going on They're like he's like, yeah jackass. It doesn't mean that at all. I'm like so now I know I'm about to hear something because Anything that I'd ever read in the books and from the army and from you know, ncoes system and everything like okay I just had regurgitated what he said.

And so what he said, no, what help and welfare the troops means is to you give the men that are under you the ability to survive and thrive in combat. That's what that means. That's a whole lot different than beans and bullets. He's like, yeah, you have to know all that stuff to just be a good leader. A good leader knows their people.

I said, but don't ever be confused that with being, you know what I mean, providing health and welfare to the troops. The ability to survive and thrive in combat, that's a whole nother thing. That doesn't have anything to do with this piece. And because of my limited experience, but experience nonetheless in the Gulf War,

I knew what he was talking about. I had an idea of what he was talking about. And so from that moment forward, and I was sober, so now it's predictable and consistent and regular, that's what my whole life has been about. You know what I mean? How to give, obviously when I was on active duty, predictable and consistent and regular, that's what my whole life has been about. How to give, obviously when I was on active duty, is like you have those ability, meaning in training,

to survive combat. So teach them right, number one, and then to thrive in it. That's a whole nother different piece of just survival of combat. And again, I'd already mentioned all the other war wizards that were in that brigade. And then I started getting exposure to,

so I was a Vietnam vet, and I started getting exposure to this idea of, I really didn't know what I was being exposed to, but it was PTSD, right? I mean, I had learned that battle fatigue, PTSD, all that stuff, that was a leadership issue. A leader's job is to be able to identify if one of their soldiers has battle fatigue,

post-traumatic stress, you know, that kind of stuff. That's a leadership issue. Not to heal it, I mean, not to fix it, but hey, Jimmy right there, he's developing leadership issue, not to heal it. I mean, not to fix it, but hey, Jimmy right there, he is developing these symptoms, his nightmares, all the stuff that we know that are symptoms of PIA. Like I identify those things and hey, he's got to be pulled offline and fixed

as far as for unit readiness, not caring about the human any, just back to the military machinery piece of it. So I knew it was a leadership issue, but I mean, there wasn't any offerings. I mean, it was early 90s and stuff. But I got exposed again to more, I'll probably get this in order, but then the next kind of situation I found myself with

was I had one like soldier of the quarter board or something, you know, I was doing all these different things that you have to do to excel in peacetime because we were in peacetime army. I mean, I was in peacetime army for 10 years before 9-11. That's a lot of training.

That's a lot of experience. And so one of this, because I want to get promoted, you got to go to these boards, you know, I mean, it's all this peacetime army things that you have to do to excel during that time. And so I won this trip to Sacramento, California, to be at the 173rd Airborne Division's reunion.

They reenacted it, or reactivated it, but back then it wasn't. So it's just Vietnam vets, you know in Korea But the thing about it was is that also during the Vietnam War the 173rd the Ranger Regiment All the different Ranger companies because they didn't have battalions in with companies had supported that unit. So there were all Every Ranger that had served in Vietnam was there also. So I get to go out to their reunion in Sacramento. So now I'm sitting with hundreds. I mean, there was more missing body parts in that room than probably ever until that thing happened again, because these are all the Rangers, all these guys. There's guys walking around, you know,

with four gold stars on their jump wings from World War II. I mean, there's just, yeah, man, there's these guys that the only time they come out of the woods is for this reunion, and then they go back to the woods because they can't deal with society. Or they choose not to, not that they can't, they just choose not to. So I'm sitting there with, I'm at E5,

this is like 94, I got four years in the army, you know, and I'm in, and so I'm like, in awe. But then I'm learning, you know what I mean? And what I'm learning about the message that just keeps hitting with me with war and trauma is that it doesn't go away. Because I'm watching all these heroes having fun, talking shit, you know what I mean?

Telling stories, that's a chunk of it. And then usually in the evenings, you know, or some part, even during the day, there's this darkness, you know what I mean? And there's this savagery of emotions that occurs and these come-aparts and the, you know what I mean? It was like, whoa. And this self-medication, right?

Which I, I'm an alcoholic, man. These guys that are, they're feeling so much emotion, they have to medicate it, you know, and that's their medicine, and drugs, and everything. So I was just like, and I wasn't being judgemental by any means, you know? It was like, the message I got was, it's like, it doesn't go away. Like it got was, it's like, it doesn't go away.

Like it doesn't, like here's, it doesn't go away. It's 30 years later, it doesn't go away, you know? So, and then shortly after that, I did a 45th anniversary jump into St. Mary of Lys, France, epic, right? You know what I mean? Jump mastered into the static line, jump mastered into that. There was some old World War II guys

that jumped into there also. I mean, some of those guys were still healthy enough to jump in and they walked in. And so we're there. And again, I mean, epic, right? Here I am with all my heroes. And the same thing happens, like during the day, it's like I landed right over there and broke my leg

and I crawled over here and and I shot three Germans over, you know what I mean? Like, holy crap. So during the day, we're talking about all that stuff, and then sometimes during the day or then at night, I'm watching them just come apart, unhinged. You know what I mean? Wow, it doesn't go away. Doesn't go away.

Like, okay. And that's just information that I'm having, you know? And so I would talk to a lot of them about that, especially the World War II guys, you know, which was a much, in my opinion, don't know if it's true or not, you know, a much tougher group of men come out of the depression, you know what I mean?

And then live world wars. I mean. I'm with you. Yeah, man, like greatest generation to date, in my opinion. That's what they call them, the greatest generation. And so as they, and I went, no, as in sobriety, now I'm in sobriety and I'm in meetings

and I'm talking to veterans and stuff, cause now some of that stuff a little bit is gurgling up from me. Even though I did my step work, I hadn't been to any psychology help or anything like that. So I still have a lot of emotions that are not processed and some of those hardcore World War II guys,

you know what I mean, they called it, some of them would say like, yeah, don't shake the net, boy. And what he meant was is that you know All the pictures of the D-Day invasion and the big cargo nets on the big ships that were putting them on the Landycraft You know, you see the pictures and they're just full of it well These are those guys stories. It's like yeah Guys that would be shitting themselves, you know what I mean, or freak out,

having panic attacks and like, I'm not going kind of deal and start freaking out and shaking the net that's about to make all these other guys fall off of it. They'd pull them off of it. Cause either you go or 10 of us go, you know, kind of deal. And so whenever it came to the talk of war trauma, those kinds of stories, you know, kind of deal. And so whenever it came to the talk of war, trauma, those kinds of stories, you know, the ones that we have that we don't even really talk amongst ourselves about,

you start bringing that kind of stuff up, they'd be like, don't shake the neck, son. And be like, dang. So one part of me got it, but then the other part of me was like, something has to be done with that because it doesn't go away So, you know, I mean these guys were in their later times of their life just because where they were and um, so anyway I got this this is even when I was in the 82nd, you know, and uh, let's backtrack just a second

So you're sober you get sober. you get sober, you get your wife back. Did you tell your dad? Did you call your father and let him know you got sober? Yeah, I was staying in contact with him. So that was the beginning. Like I said, my dad and I didn't have good relations, you know, young in life. And man, and he did the best thing,

cause he knew, I'd tell him what I was doing, like, yeah, I'm still going to the bar, but I'm not drinking. And cause I'd call him every week or so and just check in with him and stuff. Man, and he was, you know, now, I mean, me being a dad, you know, your son is your son, no matter how old you are, you know, and he knew, I knew he wanted to say,

you need to stop doing that. You need to do this, you know, and do that. But he didn't. He was just like, well, you just, and I knew he wanted to say, you need to stop doing that, you need to do this, you know, and do that, but he didn't. He was just like, well, you just keep at it, just keep at it, just keep at it, you know, and so when I was, I was enjoying the conversations with him, you know, they weren't any kind of deep, but I wasn't angry with him. I wasn't, you know, there wasn't anything in between us. It was, we were just, I was a young man, he's, you know, and we were having conversations. So it was, it was super cool.

Yeah, and he, and he didn't get into my business. He just kept encouraging me, encouraged me. Cause if he'd have said it, just with the dad factor, I wouldn't have done it cause he asked me to do it. You know, cause I'm again, that jackass that doesn't like being told what to do. So yeah, he's back in my life and because of me, not because of him, you know, back in my life and man,

and we're creating this new relationship, which was huge, huge for me at that point in my life too, you know, and it a really big deal. So all those relationships are being mended up and it's good. Let's get into your special ops career. So then I ended up not even, so again my whole thing was like wanting to get

to the Ranger measurement, right? So I'm Ranger qualified but I didn't go to the regiment. And they'll be quick to tell you the difference between those two things. But anyway, so I went to, I'm like, well, what next? Because I couldn't stay in the 82nd any longer. Some of the best NCOs to date were those men that were there. But I just always wanted like, what's next? Like I wanted, I needed, I'd done everything that I could do there.

What's the next challenge, you know? And being an SF, you know, Green Beret, it's like, okay, well that just was kind of like the next thing. And it was like, hey, I was already on another enlistment and I couldn't switch over. so let me go to that. So in December of 95, I went to Special Forces selection and made it. How did that come on the radar?

Going to Special Forces. It was just that I wasn't, I was like, man, what's next? That was kind of the what's next, it was what was next. I was like, well, I can go to special forces. Did you always know about it or? I mean, I always knew about the Green Berets, but it wasn't like one of those things that like,

hey, that'd be cool, but it wasn't like a man, I wanna devote my life to this purpose, you know? And it was really like, hey, I didn't wanna be a drill sergeant or recruiter, cause that's the, I mean, I've, and it was really like, Hey, I didn't want to be a drill sergeant or recruiter because that's the, you know, right at about six years, five to six years, you get tagged for being a drill sergeant or recruiter. I didn't want that. I was like, so let me go to selection because that trumps anything there.

So, so not a lot of really huge reason for going other than giving a shot and that it was going to be super hard. And that was the motivation for us. huge reason for going other than giving a shot and that it was going to be super hard. That was the motivation for us. Like, hey, do I have what it takes to be at the next level? So a go to that and yeah, and make it at that time, each one of these things that I experienced, whether it was pre rangers and ranger school, then best rangers and SFAS was the hardest thing I ever done in my life. You know, each one of those. When not one of those that I just breeze through and like, well, that wasn't too bad. It was like, no, it was the hardest thing

I'd ever done in my life. Until I got to the next hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. And then at this point, SFAS for sure was the hardest thing I'd ever done in my life. Made it through that, super exciting. You know, like holy crap, you know, past selection.

As an 18 Charlie, that's engineer, special forces engineer. Started, what did I do? Went to the Q course, qualification course for that. And again, man, I'm now living even more of the dream. You know what I mean? Like now I'm gonna be a special forces guy. So at this time I'm about, you know,

I'm about, this is 96 timeframe. So I'm like four years sober. And what I've seen in sobriety is like, usually between years four and six, a lot of that unprocessed trauma comes out. If you haven't seen a psychologist or, you know, worked through those kinds of issues. And for me, a lot of that emotional stuff

started coming out from childhood, from past, from, you know, I mean, whatever. It just started coming out. I didn't have any really processing tools other than sharing it with another alcoholic or another warrior, you know. And so there were some tough times, you know, having panic attacks, anxiety attacks.

Again, not to do to anything, it was all from past stuff. You know, and it's a natural, what I've learned is that it's a natural progress of the body has to be rid of all of that stored emotion. The body will be rid of it at some point. Usually it comes out sideways. Like if I'm not dealing with something that I know I'm not supposed to be dealing with,

it's gonna come out. With an inappropriate emotional response, inappropriate behaviors, like saying too much, getting mad, you know what I mean? It's coming out. I always revert it back to like a thorn that's stuck in my skin. Like my body is going to kill itself to get that out.

Like you know what I mean? It's gonna, there's be red and then there'll be pus around it, cause it's trying to force it out. You know what I mean? It'll go so far as if it doesn't force it out, then I'll become septic and die. You know what I mean? But the body is gonna try to get it out.

So all those stored emotions, stored in memories, in events, are coming out. So I was having these weirdo panic attacks and stuff. I didn't even have the words for them. Because again, it's mid-90s, no one talks about anxiety and panic attacks. Not in my circles anyway. It's just like, man, I don't know what's matter with me. Whatever, just don't do anything stupid right now. You know, and so I was going through that. And one morning, again, now what I know, when I was in language school,

I ended up having this panic attack. And it just so happened that morning, I was supposed to go in for a PT test, like at 0630, and then normal, like being class at language school, you know, at 09. and then normal, like being class at language school, you know, at zero nine. So I got up with that panic attack thing. My wife had already gone to work.

I was at the house by myself, no kids still, and I'm having this panic attack. Man, I'm not leaving the house. I'm supposed to be at formation, and I'm not going. And I'm well aware of the consequences of my actions. Like I'm probably gonna get kicked out because it was almost like a zero tolerance kind of thing. Man, I'd seen guys get kicked out for stuff. And I was just, I was not well, man.

You know, I was reading my books, I was praying my prayers. I was just like, just riding it out, but I wasn't leaving the house. For whatever reason, I'm not leaving the house. And so, cool things, people that knew me and I was predictable, you know, the first sergeant of course, SF, you know, long tab guys, like, hey, where's Spooner? Why isn't he at my formation? You know, because I'm student status, you know, long tab guys like, hey, where's Spooner? Why isn't he at my formation?

You know, because I'm student status. You know, I'm not, I haven't made nothing in those guys' minds, you know? And so the first arm was of course pissed. And then I didn't show up for the next formation. And first arm came down and he's like, where's Spooner? And I don't know, he's not. And so two of my best friends that I,

one of them I knew in the 82nd, and we'd gone to selection and we're in the course together, they go to the First Sergeant and they're like, hey, First Sergeant, something's wrong. Cause the First Sergeant was getting ready to come to my house, unbeknownst to me. Like I knew I was going to be in trouble, but I didn't know like some dude was getting ready

to come to my house. Something kept coming up and he couldn't come to the house because that's what he told my buddies. He's like, hey, I was gonna go to the house. I can't. He's like, you all two go to his house right now. You know, and I'm like, unbeknownst to me. So I'm just at the house having a panic attack,

trying to get my shit together, you know? And so I finally do, you do, it starts easing up, as most emotions do, I mean passing and I'm like, I'm like, okay. And right about that time I look out my window and I see my buddy Robert's truck pull up, I'm like, what the fuck are they doing here? You're supposed to be in language,

we're in the language course together. And I look like a mess, right? I got like some Bermuda shorts on, my hair's all crazy sticking out. I look like a dude that's probably having a panic attack, you know, and I'm at the door and my one buddy, he knows about my sobriety and my other path and my other one and he's like,

hey bro, how you doing? You know, I'm like, man, not so good this morning. Like, come on in, you know, cause I wasn't hiding anything. And so they come in, but it was that act of human kindness. You know what I mean? Here, it makes me emotional even now to think about it. You know what I mean?

Here warriors came to the aid, like cause Rob knew something was wrong, because I don't not, I'm a good soldier. You know what I mean? I don't miss formations. Like, I'm, I set the example, you know what I mean? That's what Tom does. So he knew something was wrong.

And so, but just that act of human kindness, man, just flew from other warriors, you know, just like really calmed all of it down. I was like, man, ain't that something. So they knew I was good and, you know, just like really calmed all of it down. I was like, man, ain't that something? So they knew I was good and, you know, everything was good. And I was like, yeah, man, I'm going to iron my uniform up, you know, and then go talk to First Sarnit, right? So I'm going to talk to the First Sarnit.

I was like, man, I'm probably going to get kicked out of the crap. I mean, at minimum, they're going to recycle me. You know, I'm going to get punished somehow, even though I really I just missed a couple, but at those times, zero tolerance. Guy's name was First Sergeant Stack. And so I go into the First Sergeant and I was like, he's sitting down, I sat down.

He's like, yeah, sit down. And he's been in SF for over 10 years. You know what I mean? Like this dude's a crusty old SF dude, you know? And I was like, he's S. Like just says that like, I mean, wait, like you better start talking, boy. You know what I mean?

And so, and so I started talking. I was like, hey, first time, first of all, you know, there's absolutely no reason I shouldn't have been at your formation. There's no excuse. I should have been at your formation. He's like, hey, first time, first of all, there's absolutely no reason I shouldn't have been at your formation. There's no excuse. I should have been at your formation. He's like, yeah. He's like, yeah, I know that.

He said, so what's going on? And I was like, what? You know what I mean? Like I'm already expected to be kicked out in my little movie. You know what I mean? I'm kicked out.

I'm going, I'm doing like, and this man is asking me what's going on with it. And he meant it. Like what's going, obviously something's going on. Tell me what's going on. And I told him, you know, I was like, hey, you know what? I was having some struggles this morning. And there was some things going on in my family.

My brother was struggling a little bit with some struggles going on with my mom. You know what I mean? I had some, I wasn't gonna tell him fully that I was having a fucking panic attack. You know what I'm saying? I mean, but I told him enough of the truth, probably about 90% of it, that I was struggling,

that I owned up to. And then he said something that I had never experienced before. He looked at me and he said, okay. He said, he's like, look, you're in special forces now. We take care of each other. And I was like,

what? You know, because we say all that shit, you know what I mean? Like, oh yeah, family first, all this stuff. You know what I mean? You know what I mean? Like we're part of the machine. And he said, and next thing you know, he's offering me time off. He's like, hey, you know what I mean? Like we're part of the machine. And he said, and next thing you know,

he's offering me time off. He's like, hey, if you need time off, you take time off. And then he said, he's like, but if something comes up with you again that you haven't already talked to me about prior to it happening, you're out of here. But I understand that kind of language. You know, I was like,

but again, it was that, it's like, hey, I'm entering a brotherhood. Like I'm, I was already in a really, every unit that I left, I was not disgruntled at. Like I wasn't like, ah, screw these guys. I want to move on. It was like, man, these were, you know, I enjoyed it. I wanted to be where I was. It was just time to move on, you know?

And so here I'm in like, something's different here with these guys. Like they mentioned this brotherhood, we talked about brotherhood there, like it's a little bit even different. And so I made it and the significance of that, obviously very significant at a low point in my life, you know what I mean?

This male figure that is now providing me encouragement structure, you know what I mean? And the way ahead, now providing me encouragement structure, you know what I mean? And the way ahead, you know, like, hey, keep kicking ass. Don't come in my office again, you know? And all language I understood, he ended up getting killed in Afghanistan. Yeah, after the Jiwa, you know, kicked off. So again, just men like that in my life.

So I finished up the, you know, I'm in this new kind of brotherhood thing. So then I get my team and seventh group, I went to seventh group, you know, Central and South America. Again, man, I won the Super Bowl again, you know what I mean, like championship. And it's all pre-war, I mean, it's all no war timeframe.

You know what I mean? So Central, South America, pretty dicey, you know, drug on war, you know what I mean, it's all no war timeframe. You know what I mean? So central South America, pretty dicey, drug on war. You know what I mean? It was at least dangerous place to go. Super happy, loved the culture, loved the people. It was dangerous as shit a lot of times, and it was a lot of good times, and yet the pool of quality of men

that were around me was even better. You know what I mean? There was guys that I was trying to be like. You know what I mean? It was like, holy crap. And again, the first team that I rolled into, like the team sergeant is an ex-unit guy. You know what I mean?

So there's that, who's in Grenada and all kinds of stuff. And then there's a couple other guys on the team That were veterans of the L sal wars, you know to me in El Salvador and all that so here I am again On this new team now be instructed or being gifted with this is how you do it boy, you know Like learn and you know at that time I was 26 years old unbroken I I was beast physically, you know and a little bit cocky, you know, and And some of the older guys, you know, we're a little out of shape But I didn't know what they had gone through because I didn't know what it was like to be on a team for six years you know what happens to your body in special operations, you know, and I

Have a little judgy internally. Thank God God it never came out of my mouth, man. But I just was like, man, I really need to learn this job. Like, don't be judgmental, like learn, man. And I just watched how these guys worked down range. You know what I mean? I mean, in non-combat time, you know, we would go and we were just doing foreign internal defense and, you know, teaching POIs and working,

but they were wizards, man. You know what I mean? They, you want to talk about if somebody that can create, they were special forces soldiers by, with, and through, and they could mobilize a battalion at their whim. You know what I mean? Like wizards, which you know, I mean through Buzz, that just gets your foot in the door, man.

You haven't really done, in those guys' minds that are working in those units, there's like, they don't in the door, man. You haven't really done, in those guys' minds that are working in those units, there's like, they don't give a shit, man. Like you've just got your, good job, you got your foot in the door, now you're gonna get- When you get in there, especially with the guys that are putting you through, I mean, the Mogadishu guys, Tom Staddley and his boys, and we've interviewed Tom,

and I mean, what was, and then knowing they know, Yeah. They know more than anybody else what you're about to walk into. Yeah. And so, you know,

I would think that they, that had to be fucking tough. Yeah, man. I mean, those had to be some, some hard men to please. And I would imagine that they, I mean, did it seem like they just despise you? Like there's no way that you could ever rise to their expectation

to be able to work alongside with them? Wasn't that at all? No shit. Yeah man, I mean they were super, they were super tough at upholding the standard. So there wasn't any extra, like the standard was so hard, number one. But now the intensity level has gone up.

Maybe it's always been that way. You know what I mean? I don't know, I only know my class and the classes after that that I was cadre on. But it was like that level of intensity of the focus on the standard of doing it right, man, was off the charts. And we had a really small group. How many?

There was probably 10 to 12 guys in my little group. So there was almost a one-to-one instructor. Like you weren't getting away with nothing. And they were not gonna send a product to, like all of those guys had already obviously their instructor status now they had spent you know years on the teams like they're not sending body any shit back back to their friends. So there's that aspect of it too. Like because there's a good chance that they'll be working with him. Because

after they finish that time as being instructor they're're going right back. So that's what capes it so fresh. So yeah, it was super intense, man. And then the, so it was the normal pressure and then the self-imposed pressure. Because here I am now, another Super Bowl win, right? Like now I'm going through the gate of this compound that I'd been around for 11 years. And I'm actually going through the gate of this compound that I'd been around for 11 years. And I'm actually going through the gate. So for a little while, and the intensity so had, and every week they made a decision where you were staying or not.

I mean, that was common knowledge. They had a little meeting, and with the instructors, it was whether you were staying or not. And there were guys getting chipped off, you know what I mean? And then, I mean, just cause you made it through that, if you had to make it through the last board at the end, you know what I mean?

It was intense, but I loved it. You know what I mean? And again, it was during that time. So that was just amazing, right? And so back to month two, you know, basically of a January timeframe, and my son was born in the middle of January, right? So, and during that time in the training course,

you know, it was a lot of basic stuff that we were doing at the time, because they're getting the whole group up to speed. Because, you know, they're pulling from guys with all different backgrounds, you know what I mean? So they're getting everybody, setting everybody up for success along the way. So it was a lot of stuff marksmanship wise

that I was already good at and a lot of things. So my son was born and so awesome. You know what I mean? Two year old infant, newborn, wife, everything's good. Have a little bit of time to take care of that and family's coming in to help take care of, obviously very planned for because I got to be in this course.

So it was all good, everything was good and then some complications occur with my wife. She has very hard time with pregnancies. And so, but it was mostly during pregnancy, this was post, so usually no problems after that. Well, I don't know that there's a problem. I'm on the range, black suburban pulls up, with the Sarn Major of the training, you know what I mean?

Who was a team leader in Mogadishu, by the way. So that whole crew, you know what I mean? So he shows up and he's like, yeah, we're spooner. Yeah, I'm fired. You know what I mean? Like, the sergeant major doesn't come, you know what I mean? At the range and asks for it. Like, for only one reason, you're out of here.

So I get in the, and he don't say shit. He's like, yeah, get in. And then we get in and I'm like, I'm fired. You know what I mean? He's like, hey, your wife's okay, but she's in the hospital. There's been some complications. She's stable, but there's a lot going on.

He's like, so you're gonna take this suburban, you're gonna take this cell phone, because 2001 timeframe, right? So we don't have iPhones and all that. You're gonna take this cell phone, go take care of business, go take care of your family, keep me updated. Fuck out of here.

So I do, you know what I mean? Roger that, thanks, I mean. You know what I mean? And I go, but in my mind I'm like, what? Where am I? You know what I mean? Like, what, who does this? Like, I mean, of course that you can't miss any time, man.

I haven't even made it, you know what I mean, through the first month and now this is going on, whatever. So go through, you know, it was life, a lot of complications, we got septic, there was, you know, different things that had happened and it took a few days to get sables. So I mean, I missed a couple of days, you know what I mean? Cause I got a newborn, a two year old,

you know what I mean, like There's a lot going on. And so I was like, hey, whatever. I know my priorities are straight. You know what I mean? The family is first in this scenario versus the school. And they were just taking care of it. So we get it all settled in again. And after a couple of days, and I go back to work,

keep Sarmadra updated. Everything's good. Back to work. And then major updated, everything's good, back to work. And then it was after work this time, she ended up having to go again to the hospital. So it was another little stint. And so it was a lot, a lot going on, right? And so I know I'm like, man,

I'm gonna get at best recycled. Here I am again, like my little scenario, it's not me this time, it's a family situation, but it's like same kind of scenario where like at best recycled. You know, here I am again, like my little scenario, it's not me this time, it's a family situation, but it's like same kind of scenario where like, at best I'm gonna get recycled. If not, like, hey man, you can't handle your own family problems, you probably don't need to be in this unit, you know what I mean, kind of deal.

So, anyway, I call the sergeant major up and say, hey sergeant Major, everything's settled. Like, he's like 100%. He said, don't call me until, cause she didn't know she went and had to go back. He's like, okay, like make sure it's settled before you call me back again. Like take the time, make sure your family's good.

The support is there that you need, whatever you need. Meanwhile, this dude is number one, taking care of me by allowing me to do that stuff. whatever you need. Meanwhile, this dude is number one, taking care of me by allowing me to do that stuff. His wife is taking care of my wife. She's, we don't even know this, these people. Wow. They haven't said this, but without saying it,

they didn't need to. It's like, yeah, this is how we handle people here, our people. You know what I mean? It was like, it was fucking bizarre world to me. And it's like, like coming, calling my wife, checking on my wife, like, who the fuck is she? Like, it almost weirded me out a little bit.

Like, what did they put the fuck in it for them? You know what I mean? Cause I'm just, but it was just like, so I call a sergeant major up and say like, hey, yeah, it's good. I was like, we're good, we're solid. And I'm waiting for him just to tell me he just didn't want to hurt my feelings along the way.

Like, hey, we're gonna recycle you into the next class. You've missed six days of training now. And he's like, okay, you settled, yeah, good. He's like, all right, go to Raleigh. There'll be a, because my guys, they were doing training out at Campbell with aircraft. And it's like, hey, your team's already out at Campbell, there's a plane ticket waiting for you,

and Raleigh, pick up a ticket, get on the plane, meet up with your team, continue with training. I started laughing at the dude. I started laughing and he's like, what? I was like, hey, so I'm a major, do you want one of my kids? No one does, like, what do you mean? Like, he was supposed to tell me, like, no, so I'm a major, like do you want one of my kids? Like what, no one does, like what do you mean? Like he was supposed to tell me like, no, I'm recycling,

you know, and he's telling me to continue with the training, you know, and I was like, do you want one of my kids or something? He laughs a little bit, you know, and he's like, hey, he's like, he's like, he's like, hey man, it's just the right thing to do. Why is that? I'm like, what the fuck, man?

Who is this? I haven't even made it, you know what I mean? They're taking of me like I'm a unit member. You know what I mean? Like I'm... Your mindset is I don't deserve this treatment yet. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and they're like, hey yeah, as if. this treatment yet. Exactly. Yeah.

And they're like, hey, yeah, as if. And here's another example of this next level of brotherhood, this next level of care for the family. You know what I mean? OK, I'm in a different spot. And these are with these guys. You know what I mean? So it bursts that bubble of, or begins to burst some of the bubble that, hey, to be a badass commando, you got to drink and tear up, you know, and all that kind of stuff.

I mean, some of them do. And again, I'm not judging. But then there's also a large group that they don't. They're just total badasses anyway. You know what I mean? Like, and so I was meeting all these different kind of dudes and everything, you know? So, wife's better, everything's good. You know, make it through the course. Yeah, so I'm in, you know?

Well, what did it feel like getting through that course? Man. With the graduate, when you're done, in 9-11 and just, I mean, you're the first class to graduate OTC at Delta. I had thought of that till you just said it. Post 9-11. Yeah.

The longest war in USS. Yeah, yeah, man. I was fucking pumped. What did they say to you? Welcome. That's it. Welcome to the team. Yeah, man.

Like, here's your team room. Here's your team sergeant. Here's... Like, let's get to it. In typical fashion, it's like, hey, great job. No, hold on tight. It's going to be a wild ride. I mean...

Oh, no. So then whenever it comes, and now then you get with the team, right? And so that was the next kind of cup check, you know, sanity check for me was like, you know, how good can these guys really be? What squadron did you go to? I was A. Yeah. So it's like, hey, how good could these guys be?

You know, because I've been doing CQB NSF for a while, been to CQB schools and stuff. It's like now OTC level, it's like, that what you up the game, it's like, can they really be that much faster and that much better? Because I don't have a point of reference, you know what I mean? And I'm a little bit of a arrogant guy myself.

And so when you get to the team and then my two IC, he says to me, he's like, hey, when we're going on team runs, you know, doing CQB in the buildings, he's like, hey man, just throw chemlights and try to keep up. You know, I'm like, okay. Like, yeah, watch, you know,

me being my little bit of arrogance, like, you know how good I am, you know what I mean? It's like, and so what did I do for the next few weeks? Throw chemlights and try to keep up. You know what I mean? Because it was, these guys have been working together. As you experience, you know, get man, you get on a team, these dudes have been doing it at this level together

for this, like that's, I mean, there's intuitive shit they're doing. You know what I'm saying? They just see how he's leaning and he knows what he's doing already. You like these guys know each other in the house under nods like It's it's incredible So there I am again just trying to keep up man. I'm trying to I mean I'm always going for the title man And it's like but in that crew, in that crew of warrior like that,

man, it was like, holy crap, man. Let me just be amongst them and have a decent reputation amongst them. That was the goal. I mean, some days you'd win, be on top, but then you knew that they were coming. It was that healthy competitiveness, man, where it was just like, it was incredible.

It just created this fighting force that was unlike anything I've ever experienced in my life. And now I was part of it, man. So I was, I was ecstatic. And again, what my belief system in place is that, okay, if I'm not supposed to be here, I wouldn't have made it. So I'm supposed to be here, so be all in, until I'm not, like, living moment to moment,

living in the present, living in the day, having in the plan, and like, learn your job, get to work, and like, let's go. And let's go to war, man. Like, I am, you know what I mean? I've spent 11 years, you know what I mean? Like, my whole life for this moment. Yeah.

Like, and obviously there was some naive to that, because I mean I experienced some of it in the Gulf War, but just a taste, you know? So there was a little bit of naive of what that meant, but I kind of knew what it meant. You know, and I was, again, now I'm almost 12 years in, a lot of hard stuff. I was pretty hardened, trained,

hardened mind, body and spirit, dude. You know, like I was about as prepared as you can get to go to war. How long was it after you graduated OTC before you went out the door on your first deployment? Like two months. That's it. Two, maybe three.

Let's. I'm not sure, a couple, but minimal, no more than three. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll get into your first deployment. All right. I want to tell you about this business venture I've been on for about the past seven, eight months, and it's finally come to fruition.

I've been hell-bent on finding the cleanest functional mushroom supplement on the planet and that all kind of stemmed from the psychedelic treatment I did. Came out of it, got a ton of benefits, haven't had a drop of alcohol in almost two years. I'm more in the moment with my family and that led me down researching the benefits of just everyday functional mushrooms. And I started taking some supplements, I found some coffee replacements, I even repped a brand and you know it got to the point where I just wanted the finest ingredients available no matter where they come from and It it got to this point where I was just gonna start my own brand and so we started going to Trade shows and and looking for the finest ingredients and in doing that I ran into this guy

Maybe you've heard of him. His name is Laird Hamilton and His wife Gabby Reese and they have an entire line of supplements with all the finest ingredients and we got to talking. Turns out they have the perfect functional mushroom supplement. It's actually called performance mushrooms and this has everything. It's USDA USDA organic it's got Chaga, Cordyceps, Lion's Mane, Miyataki. This stuff is amazing for energy balance for cognition. Look just being honest see a lot of people taking care of their bodies I do not see a lot of people taking care of their brain, this is the product guys. And so we got to talking and our values seemed very aligned.

We're both into the functional mushrooms. And after a lot of back and forth, I am now a shareholder in the company. I have a small amount of ownership and I'm just look I'm just really proud to be repping and be a part of the company that's making the best functional mushroom supplement on the planet. You can get this stuff at LayeredSuperfoods.com

you can use the promo code SRS that'll get you 20 percent off these performance mushrooms or anything in the store. They got a ton of good stuff. Once again, that's LayeredSuperfoods.com. Use the promo code SRS, that gets you 20% off. You guys are going to love this stuff. I guarantee it. Thank you for listening to The Sean Ryan Show.

If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to iTunes and leave The Sean Ryan Show review. We read every review that comes through and we really appreciate the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show. All right, Tom, we're back and we had just finished up. Delta selection, you're on your team. You're getting ready to deploy.

Where are you going? Yeah, so that first one that went to is Afghanistan. That was in the fall of 02. And we were on a, it was just TST, Time Sensitive Target Task Force, that was there. So we just, if anything hot came up, we went and did it. So it was a lot of time on base. But my first mission in the unit was pretty,

not anything glamorous on the end results, but I got a welcome to the party results of that. So we were going without the whole story of the mission. It was, hey, going to go get a bad guy. You know, and we kind of deal in that level of target set. And we were loaded up and we had to get on 130s and C-130s and fly to another town and so we get on in the back of these trucks. I'm in the back of this truck and I'm holding this basically this big device.

It's a like a piece of plywood, two by fours, this whole sheet of plywood, you know what I mean? As far as so I'm holding it in the back of this pickup truck going out to the C-130, because it's going on the plane with us. And as soon as we get up to the airfield and take a right to head towards that, there's a C-23, a German airplane, sitting there. And as soon as we turn that way, he gases, as luck would happen, he gases that plane, so that whole sheet of plywood that I'm holding onto and holding down with the two by fours that I'm holding,

of course, takes flight. And that thing comes up, snaps my nose right here, big time, hits me in the cheek there, and knocks me back. I mean, it's just like a big piece of plywood flies away, you know, like a piece of paper, except with me in the middle of it. And so it knocked me back and the other guys and the team back there, you know,

I come to set back up in the back of the pickup truck, I set back up and then I was like, this can't be happening. Like I just took a shot, you know what I mean? And there's blood already pouring out. I'm thinking it's mainly coming from out of my mouth. Busted my nose before, you know? So it's like, man, it's coming out.

Like, holy shit, everybody's gonna be coming to check on me. Like, there's no way I'm not going on this mission. You know what I mean? Like this is my first one, like ever. My whole life has built up to this moment and I get hit with a two by four in the nose. So my two I see, he comes around to the front of me and I'm thinking that the blood's coming out of my nose

because there's a lot on my kit coming out of my nose. He comes around and he's like, because they seen it happen, you know, and he comes around and he's like, you all right? I'm like, yeah, I'm okay. I didn't know that the nasal artery had got cut right there and it was like, it was just like dumping blood out.

And he's like, yeah, man, no, you're not. And I was like, no way. And then I was like, this isn't happening. There's no way that this is happening to me right now. And everybody else is loading the plane. All the rest of the guys are loading up the plane. Some guys are coming by, so the medic comes up to me and he's like, look at me.

I'm looking at him and he's like, and I'm starting to go like this. He's like, look at me and I'm like, I'm like, I'm okay, I'm okay, I'm okay. And I was like, I'm not okay. You know what I mean? And I almost pass out, lay down and get my feet up, you know, just from the shock

and the little bit of a blood loss thing. Elevating my feet. Meanwhile, everybody's loading up the plane. One dude's taking my shotgun off of me. You know what I mean? Another dude's pulling charges out of my pants. You know what I mean? Because obviously I'm not out of my pants, you know what I mean? Because obviously I'm not going,

so I'm gonna have to cover down. And I was like, there's no way this is happening, man. And so then I start feeling better. Like I leveled back out and I sat up and I was like, hey Mike, I'm good, the medic, I'm like, hey man, I'm good. He's like, yeah, Steve's got a blast off of you, you know what I mean?

The PA guy that was there and he comes up, blast off of you. You know what I mean? The PA guy that was there. And he comes up, old crusty dude, you know what I mean? A warrior. And he's like, looks at me. He's like, you all right? And I'm like, yeah, I'm good. I'm totally, I'm good. And he's like, okay, get on the plane.

And so I was like, get back, grab my shotgun. You know, I mean, go back, getting my shit from everybody. And then it took a long time for that I put some ice on it and just to get it to stop from bleeding You know did a full mission, you know, I mean it was regular the mission was just a regular mission going after bad guys It was the first one. So It was a I didn't know how I would be In combat sober.

That's a new thing. You know, I didn't know, or with a God in my life, and I was like, hey, how I'm gonna, I know what I was like when I was hateful, angry man with no God in life, now what am I, and I know a lot of that is still in me, I didn't change who I was, you know what I mean? It's like, so I was a little bit, a little concerned like,

hey, am I gonna go too far? Am I gonna, you know, what's gonna happen? You know what I mean? I wasn't really afraid of it, but I hadn't experienced it yet, you know? And so we get on target, we do the target. It's a normal one, good guys mixed with bad guys. We rolled up the bad guys, didn't mess with the good guys.

You know what I mean? So I was appropriate in my response to every single thing. And that particular one, no gunfire. We were on it super fast. A lot of hands-on stuff. But I was absolutely appropriate, you know, when applied force and when not to, when be kind and then loaded everything up on the Chinooks, you know what I mean? Pulled the bad guys out of there with that. And that was under deficit, you know what I mean? I had lost a good amount of blood. I mean, my nose, man, was like literally crushed in from this side. I mean, it was bad. And I was so happy for a multitude of reasons. You know what I mean?

Like, hey, I did my first wartime hit. You know what I mean? Like that was super cool. And then, like now I'm part of the war. You know what I mean? All this time, you know, when it's 9-11 happened, I'd never gotten to get my hands on somebody, you know? And so it was like all the way,

and then appropriately, professionally, you know, whatever that was. And I didn't go too far, which was good on the personal side. Because like I said, I did have a little bit of concern, like am I just gonna be a rage monster? Because that's what I was at one time in my life. So it's fine.

I was like, yet again, it's just like, okay, man, trusting in God, you know what I mean, and doing what I'm supposed to be doing, it just makes me exactly who I need to be, you know, either merciful or merciless. You know what I mean? As long as I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing and handling my business appropriately,

putting in the work, the spiritual, mental, emotional, all of it work, you know what I mean? Hey, I'm gonna make some some really good decisions combat-wise. How did you mentally prepare for that first op? I mean, you only had two months with your unit, with your guys, before you deployed. I just was so ready. I mean, it was like 11 years of mental preparation for it.

I mean, again, being a seasoned kind of guy, it was like I didn't make light of it by any means. You know, when it was the real deal and it was in a foreign land, and you know what I mean? It was all of that. But it was way more exciting than it was anything, you know what I mean?

Like apprehension kind of was. Like man, I was just super, super excited, man. You know what I mean about with these guys doing this stuff, like for our country and for my family, you know what I mean? Because we've seen what they can do to our families, you know what I mean? Because that's a lot of guys we have the discussions of like, hey, you know, military always came before my family.

And if you're not and if someone who's in the military is not saying that they're lying to themselves, you know, because when the military calls, you have to answer that call. And it's a voluntary army. So, hey, I've chosen to place that ahead of my family. It's just the truth. And, but I believe that by doing that, that's how I'm protecting my family, you know,

with the skillset that I have and the abilities. So, I mean, I would say by going and doing all those dangerous things is absolutely how I'm taking care of my family, you know, back at home, even though assuming all that risk. But that. So Tom, you have so many, 12 deployments. Yeah.

Over a thousand direct actions. We're not gonna be able to cover all that. No, we will not. So I want to, we're gonna jump around a little bit. Okay. So with all of that experience and thousands of operations, let's talk about the first one

where you engaged to somebody. Okay. Let's go right there. Where are you? The op was, well, the setup was, is these guys were gonna conduct attacks on Americans the next morning. Through signal intelligence, they found out that they were loaded for bear, had bombs,

had weaponry, and they were going to conduct attacks on Americans. Our job was to go in on Helos and then ground assault. Just a simple land and sort ground assault. Just a simple land and sorted out. So whenever we landed, we landed real close, couldn't quite land on an L, you know, just because of the, due to the terrain. And as soon as we landed, I was in the, on this, this lead bird closest to the ropes,

so on the tail end, and the other bird was landing over this way. And so big thing in my mind was to be, and it was all night vision, was to be like looking for that first assaulter that came in my spread from the other bird. You know what I mean? Obviously what's going on in front,

I got my guy to the left, but really like, cause I don't know where they're gonna land, I don't know what angle they're gonna come in on, but I need to see whenever one of our assaulters comes into my line of sight. So I got my mind on that piece. But dude ends up, they didn't have any weapons on them in the vehicle, which is weird, like, dumb.

So he, homie, we're getting off the bird and he goes around the back of the car, opens up the, like like kind of the trunk. He has like bedrolls and stuff on top of all the guns. So he's doing all this. And meanwhile, we're just closing the, you know what I mean? Start closing the distance. We're just moving up because it's like, you know, it's Intel. You don't know if it's a hundred percent, you know, but got an idea what he's doing. Then he gets everything that he needs out of the way and he picks up a PKM,

because I know it's just the cutout handle on the side. And as soon as he cleared, I mean, it didn't even clear the trunk well, but as soon as I seen that it was a weapon there in his hand, that's whenever I started shooting him. And it was clear as day for me as far as, he had so much training, so much time, and I was so hyper alert,

not so much on the situation with the guy, but because I was looking for my assaulter coming in, I was like super high alert. But I mean, it was like every dot, I mean, I knew where every single round was landing, you know what I mean? Until everybody else came online and started shooting also. And then everybody got out and it was a big gunfight at that point.

Well, you know, I mean, they didn't get much shooting then, but we did kind of deal. How many of them were there? There was one, two in one vehicle and three in another. So five total, but there was two teams, we're so eight guys on the ground, you know, I mean, it was over in 10 seconds, you know what I mean? They didn't get any rounds off on us and we knew it was the right one. But that was the first time that, you know what I mean,

I had killed another human being 100% sure of me right then at that time. So throughout our interviews so far, you've talked a lot about God, you've talked a lot about kind of, you know, being merciful, merciless. It sounds like you have been almost concerned that you would, it would go out of control. That you were gonna, you were gonna embrace this rage. And it didn't, I mean, so how did it feel the first time? Man, nothing.

Yeah, none. It was like, I did my job. Like finally, you know, not like, Oh my God, yeah, I killed him. Not a sociopath. You know what I mean? So it was like, Hey, my job as a war fighter, you know what I mean? As a, you know, I mean, hunter of men, you know, bad guys is like, okay, I finally just did my job. It was almost like a relief. Like, finally, you know what I mean? I fulfilled my job description. Not like, you know, a notch on the gun or like got my kill on, you know, none of that.

But like pure professional and purely like, man, all right, I did my job. Is it Christian, did it, did it affect you spiritually at all? No, not at all? Did it, was there any question? Like what happens now? Yeah, no, I had none.

I was super clear. So I wasn't one of the, and I'll just categorize it, I'm kind of stereotyping, but I wasn't one of the crusader guys, right? Like Islam, Christianity, you know, some guys develop that crusader kind of bond. For me and my relationship with my God is... And I am a Christian, but how my relationship works with is like, when I go to before my maker, and I will, and I tell

him what I'm done, I'm going to tell him that I murdered people. Because murder defined is, you know, you had a plan and you executed the plan and you killed a human being. Like, I believe that at 100% absolutely is necessary. And I have my whys of why this human being needs to die. And I killed them. But it's going to be up to him whether he says yeah

or no on it, you know what I mean? But I'm not gonna hide in some piece of the Bible that says it's okay that I kill other human beings because this says that. If that is the truth, cool, I win on that anyway. But I'm not going before my guy with some weak ass shit about like, well so and so taught me and I was raised. But that's just my own personal belief.

A lot of guys fully need to and understand and embrace that mindset. But no, without a doubt, this human being had met the criteria of being executed. And I have never had a problem with that. the criteria of being executed, you know? And I have never had a problem with that. It's never affected you mentally? No, it has affected my humanity. Yeah, but as far as in my job description,

doing the job, no thrill or glory of it, and no, just, and it's like just the job, just the professional piece of it. But what was the question I got lost with? Well, basically what I was asking is, you know, a lot of guys, I think a lot of guys sometimes struggle with that. You know, with, well, this just happened.

Now there's no turning back. Yeah. And I'm just- Yeah, I know what you mean now. And I never have, man. I never, and I'll expound on it. The only time that the killing got to me was whenever I started chipping away my humanity of it.

But as far as... What do you mean by that? Yeah. So what I mean by that is my belief system is, is I really, after all that I've learned about humans and spirituality and everything, like, hey, hey, we're not meant to harm one another's. We're not. We're not meant to do that. We're meant to be social, meant to procreate,

you know what I mean, and provide for one another. You know what I'm saying? Like, I believe that at our core, that's what it is. However, we also know that humans are humans, and you know what I mean? And that war has been forever. And some people just need to be killed. You know, like I don't really know how to describe it.

So 9-11, right? 9-11 happens. Our country collective decision was a reckoning. Like they killed us, y'all go kill them as a nation. I mean, there was some folks that, humanitarians that understood peace and that kind of stuff. But you know, I mean, that's what we all went and did. And that's the job description.

But this is what I learned throughout all the deployments and I mean, have killed a good amount of people Is that when a human being that takes another human being's life And they're not a sociopath or a psychopath It chips away at the humanity and I'll just use I statement because I don't want to impose Anything that I'm saying on any other veteran or any other person. This is only on me. Is it over the years and over the deployments and over the amount of times done, the humanity

starts going away, meaning it's... What am I trying to say with that? It's easier for me to be hard, a little calloused around my heart as far as lose the humanity of it. I understand what you're saying. Yeah, where I'm not looking at this person, like I'm looking at this as a person until I PID them, and now they're not a person.

Or they're demonstrating a threat, now they're not a person. However, they are a person. And as a human being taking another human being's life, in my experience, there was a toll on me because I am a human being. And over that amount of time, you know what I mean, it's just chipped away and chipped away and chipped away.

So I got more calloused, more kind of hardened. Yeah, and then add TBI to that, which is part of the story we'll get to, you know what I mean? It turned, you know, it turned. But that was what I mean about the humanity piece of it. But I fully get back to me being a realist, man. Like war is hell. Like they didn't just come up with that slogan.

You know what I'm saying? Like that was coming from the generations that experienced it, man. All the innocents that dies, all of the, I mean, that's war. like there is, that's war. That's what we're signing up to do is war. Then we experience it, and then we get to decide whether we want to experience it again or not.

The most comfortable I've ever been in my life is in war. That is, with all the horror, with all the stuff that I hate, with all the stuff that I love, me as a warrior, as a human being, and the God-given gifts and the training that I've done and put on this planet, man, there's the time whenever I would feel home the most, man, is whenever I was making that walk

at the Balad airport, you know, from the plane, going to get our gear to disperse to wherever we were deploying to in Iraq, man. It was like, and there's a why behind it, you know what I mean? I mentioned number one, it's what I was built to do, it's what I'm wired to do, it's what I've wanted to do by choice. And man, just the aspects of it, the rules are clear, crystal clear. There's no easier living, meaning decision making, to me ever than in war. It's kill or be killed, man. You're trying to kill me, I'm trying to kill you. this killer be killed, man. It's you're trying to kill me, I'm trying to kill you. Whoever doesn't die, you know what I mean, today,

you know, wins this round. And it's just so clear. Do you think you ever became addicted to it? Yeah, I did, man. Once I got sideways with it, after I got my TBI and stuff, yeah, I got sideways with it because something had broken TBI and stuff. Yeah, I got sideways with it because something had broken in my head too, man. There was a little bit of factors,

but then I got to the point, like I said, it was super professional for a long time and then, oh, six, you know what I mean? Whenever I got my TBI, then it became personal. And that's whenever there was a little bit of soul sickness that happened with me. Again, it was still done correctly, but the intent behind it had changed.

It was a lot more personal. And that was more damaging to my person later on. Not at the time, but to your point of like addicted addicted to it, like, it's like, yeah, there was one point, even said it to my brother, whenever we were driving down the road, coming back from a meeting in between deployments, as I've said to him, he's like, I don't remember which deployment it was,

eight or nine, or when in between, and he's just like, hey man, how are you gonna keep going, man? You know, and I was like, what? Like I'm not gonna stop, you know what I mean? Like they're doing it, I'm doing it, my team's doing it, I'm doing it. And then I thought about it more and then I told him at that time in my life,

which was probably 08, 09, near the end, is like, hey man, the only time I feel anything in life is when I'm in a gunfight. And then I looked over at him and he's had, he's had tears running down his face. And I looked at him and I was like, fuck. You know, and then he's like, man, something's changed. Like something's wrong, man, like's changed. Something's wrong, man. That's wrong.

I should be able to. I mean, I have a wonderful family. I have all of this wonderful stuff in my life. And the only thing, what I just said was the truth. And that was the only time I feel anything is whenever I'm in a gunfight. Yeah, and I knew that something had changed. Do you understand why that is?

Completely. What is it? So everything was professional, you know what I mean, throughout, man. I was pro, unbothered, really tough times, lost some guys, you know what I mean, like dealt with a whole lot of things, but the things that I began to have to deal with wasn't the killing, you know, it wasn't what war, the thing that I was completely and totally unprepared for

and fucking crushed me was caring for wounded American soldiers. Like that, that was, that was what got me. And so like, so there was really, and thank God I was there. I mean, I'm always saying it, because I mean, the level of medical trauma, medical experience that we have, I mean, working on live tissue, like we were more experienced than most medics.

And so, but I would be in these three different situations that were mass casualty events to some different degree. The first one was in 04. Whenever we were out with conventional guys and, and it was, you know, there was one got killed and eight of them were wounded. And it was just me and another operator providing medical support to them. And their medic who was psychologically checked out at the time, not as a negative comment, but he had the freeze mode, fight, fight, freeze. He was just stuck in freeze for a little while.

So we were working and then he came to, so I was working on Americans during that time and it was just the feeling of it, you know what I mean? And their blood on my hands and stuff, it was like, that was the reality of war to me, was American blood. And then the second one got a little bit even more intimate, was 04 timeframe. I had a lot of significant emotional events in 04.

Was that the invasion of Fallujah? That was part of it. That was one of them. So in 0-4, which it ties into what we're talking about, so it won't derail us too much. So in 0-4, that's when everything changed. 0-3 time, we were chasing the deck. Everybody's chasing the deck.

And now the deck's gone, or mostly gone. All the big boys are gone. And now they're talking about these foreign fighters. It's like, what the fuck is that? We're chasing the debt. You know what I mean? And during that time frame, other than the guys on the initial invasion, that was a lot of war that they fought.

And then there was just pockets of it, though, after that. And a lot of times, we were running around the country like with impunity, you know what I mean? Like we're doing whatever we wanted, how we wanted, and not really getting into like hammered by it. There was no IEDs at that time either. That was a new thing, you know what I mean? That was new.

So 04, the whole war had changed, even though it was Iraq, back to Iraq. That was when they just... One of my deployments started whenever they hung up the Blackwater guys, when they first hung those guys up. That was when our trip first started. We were in Ramadi. And so that's where we were. So prior to the first battle of Fallujah, we were in Ramadi doing different stuff. And then there was a mass casualty event.

So we're at our little base that we were at. The big base was called Junction City. There was a big Marine base, you know, it was all that in Ramadi. And then they came over the radio. It's like, hey, anybody with medical training come to the cache at Junction City. It was like, fuck, all right. So we go over there and embed the surreal kind of stuff, you know, is like, okay, they're calling for everybody. That's a full up cache. Like it's a running cash already. Like it's, it's a something ginormous figured they brought in a convoy or

something, you know, cause you normally hear mortar fire and shit. I mean, it's Ramadi and oh four, man, it's hot. And so we're going over there. We don't really know what has happened. We're supposed to be going to the cash, but we come by this big open field and look across this open field. And there's a small crater there. And then there's three dudes, one guy, he's dead.

You know, and the one guy, of course, is his best friend or buddy who's doing CPR on him. And then there's somebody, the medic, you know, that was just allowing him to continue to do that because that was obvious, obviously his best friend. Because he's dead as shit. And so we go running up there and it was like, and we had a unit medic with us, you know, and we actually had a few surgeons that were traveling with us. So we had like, God had placed the dream team for this event on top of what they already

had. I'm talking like almost three surgeons were with us, you know. So that goes down. So we see that and our medic, he understood what was going on. Like this guy couldn't stop doing that because that's his buddy. Like he's gonna die before he stops doing that. So he grabbed him, you know, and he was like, hey man, he's dead. Like, I'm a medic, you know what I mean? You know, and then he was,

and then the other medic took over. Hey, where's everybody else? Because this is not what they needed. It's like everything else is at the cash and we still hadn't known what had happened. We didn't know what had happened. So what happened is they were getting ready to do a big convoy like the Baghdad

or wherever they were going. They were on base in a protected area, somewhat protected area, and they were gonna do a convoy brief. I bring everybody in, right? Giving a convoy brief with like 50 vehicles. I mean, it was a shit ton of dudes. So there's like 60 people in a, you know, corralled up in a small group and then 82 millimeter mortar lands perfectly in the middle of them. Perfectly in the middle of them. They couldn't make it up. And they didn't have most of, you know, they appropriately didn't have their armor on a middle of them. They couldn't make it up. And they didn't have most of, you know,

they appropriately didn't have their armor on, a lot of them, because they didn't need it. You know what I mean? Like they're in the fog, you know what I mean? They're where they can be. So it destroyed them. So when we got to the cache and we made the corner and came back around, there's 32 dudes laid out,

bleeding out. Probably at least 10 of them are bleeding out right now. There's already about half an inch of blood on the whole little concrete pad that we were on on the back of this little building. And man, it's summertime, you know what I mean? It's hot or springtime is still hot as shit. And so we come back there and we're like, wow, over like just start working, you know what I mean?

So we just immediately start plugging holes and everything. There's, I mean, it was a huge event, you know, three guys had already died. I mean, it was so much that 32 guys got medically evac'd out. So not just little ones here. They were like, we put them on Chinooks, 32 of them. Like that level of, so that was like, and you know, mass casualty defined as there's more wounded

than there is folks that can help the wounded, you know? And so, of course, you know, everybody went to work. It was, you know, we just all went to work, plugging holes, tying stuff off, I mean, everybody, we were just all working. And then all these little, I mean, you experienced them too, all these little surreal things that would happen. So guys that were on the gurney that were bleeding a lot,

and it was super hot outside, you know, and dripping blood, dripping blood, and then there's this like stalagmite of coagulated blood, you know, and then this little stalactite of coagulated blood, you know, just looking at it going, fuck is that? You know, so it's just like the odd things is what always hang me up. So we were constantly working for a few hours and then it turned into, it should have been a selection event, you know, I mean, as hard as that was and almost passing out, chugging water and so everything calmed down, you know, so emotions aside, everything calmed

down. And so we started cleaning up, right? Now it's to clean up the whole, I mean, it's just all the blood everywhere, got the guys out, you know what I mean? And so we're cleaning it up. And then I just had this overwhelming, I started tripping out a little bit. Like now the emotions, you know what I mean,

are welling up in me, man. If I just didn't want, I just didn't want their blood to soak into that fucking ground, you know what I mean? In that place. So I was like scooping it up, doing all this stuff and nurse comes over and she's been around, sees the nurse and she sees I'm kinda,

got a little bit of something going on. She's like, hey, what are you doing? I was like, yeah, I'm cleaning. She's like, okay, need any help? Nope, okay. So I keep cleaning, you, I'm cleaning. She's like, okay, need any help? Nope, okay. So I keep cleaning, you know what I mean? And then I start getting weird with it. You know what I mean?

Like I got a scrub brush, you know, like trying to get up little micro pieces of, and there's like puddles of blood everywhere else. You know what I mean? So I'm like, it's just my mind trying to protect itself from the amount of emotion that is overwhelming me at this time. So I'm tripping out pretty good

and I'm just trying to clean the blood, clean the blood, clean the blood. Nurse comes over again, she's like, hey, look up at her. And she's like, yeah, what? She's like, what are you doing? I'm cleaning up, like I said before. She said, I know.

And she said, and you're done with that now, because what's happening next, is we're gonna bring that fire truck over here, we use a water hose and we're gonna wash all this blood down, because we're gonna get ready, I have to do this again. You understand? Like Roger that.

So I got up and I was okay, you know? But it affected me, man. That was the first thing, and I was like, no, four, you know, but it affected me man. That was the first thing and I was like no for you know It really affected me. It was a big I wasn't prepared like all the things that we talked about prepared for I Was not prepared to deal with wounded American soldiers You know mauled Mangled, you know what I mean like all of that peace That was the first thing.

And then the other kind of aspects of significant emotion. How long did it take you to rebalance? Pretty quick, man. It was like, because it was me and a couple of my buddies on the same team were together doing that piece. And then our other teammates there. So we got back, we talked, they were like, man, I was fucked up, right?

You know, and I was like, man, yeah. He's like, are you okay? You know what I mean, yeah, I'm okay, you all right? I'm like, man, I don't know. You know what I mean, that was a lot, man. That was like, wow. You know, and so we were kind of processing. That was the thing about me being sober was,

is like, I did not have the benefit of medication, meaning external, whether that was with booze, and again, not judging anybody that did their thing that way, but I just couldn't, man. So I mean, I had to do a lot of writing, a lot of praying, a lot of talking, but my connection to reality and war, I think that's the funniest,

because you know, I've been sober quite a long time at that point, and I was sponsoring a lot of guys, but I'd be in Iraq on a iridium phone, like calling my sponsors, checking on them, seeing how they're doing. Like, hey, what the fuck, you going to meetings? Like, hey, you sponsoring those? You know what I mean?

I'd be digging into a man of like, well, you sponsoring this? You know what I mean? I'd be digging into a man of like, well, what's happening? You know what I mean? But that was my touchback to reality. Because there wasn't a lot of guys that I could talk to on the levels that I needed to talk to. I mean, I had the best of friends that would have done anything for me. But we were just on different paths in life, you know,

spiritually or whatever. So I would always continue to do that. So we would process it some, even though we didn't call it that, it would be, at least we'd kind of talk about it a little bit and kind of AAR it, you know what I mean? But it wasn't too awful at that point in time. But then some things started stacking up.

So then it was, like then we're at the first battle, Fallujah. Hold on, hold on. Yeah. How's, hold on. Yeah. I mean, are you telling your wife any of this stuff? No. So the, uh. What are you telling her?

So my wife and I, like, that's why I'm so, you know, a husband and wife's dynamic is so special and so different between every single one of us. So my wife and I are pretty freaking tough people as human beings. She's probably way, not probably, she's way tougher than I am. And so, and we've never been the kind of folks

where we share our whole worlds to one another. You know what I mean? where we share our whole worlds to one another. You know what I mean? It just, we've always had this wonderful, great communication, honesty, respectful. We communicate what needs to be communicated. But like she, I didn't want her to know certain things about me. And she didn't want to know them either

because she doesn't want to think any differently of me. And I don't want her to think any differently, more than likely she wouldn't. When you say things, do you mean what was happening over there? Yeah. Where there was a... So here's an example, because it happened to us one night, we're laying in bed and I told her, I was like, hey, I'm going through a lot, just from the deployment, just kind of...

But I'm hitting my meetings, I'm talking to my guys. I'm working, I'm getting the process, because we don't get into each other's business. She has her girls that she handles her stuff with, and I have my guys, and what we need to talk about together, we talk about together. But this is how, when we realized that, yeah, we're never gonna get it right

between the two of us. So we're sitting in bed, and I'm going through a lot of stuff. And she's thinking that, oh, I told her it was head deployment. And she's like, man, he probably feels really bad because he had to kill people. Right?

And you know what I mean? That's not the truth. And for me, I'm feeling super bad because the guys, the injured guys, wounded Americans. You know what I mean? That's what I was trying to reconcile. You know what I mean? Was war and this is part of war

and like peace and all that stuff together that no one had talked about us yet. And so she finally just came out with it and said like, hey, I know you're upset. I know you don't want to talk about it, but I want you to know it's okay. And I know that you're upset because you had to kill people. And I started laughing.

She's like, what? I'm like, what? I'm like, what are you talking about? And she's like, what are you talking about? And I was like, no, I don't feel bad about it at all. And she's like, well, I don't need to know that. And I was like, okay, so here's our rules moving forward. We won't talk about what happens unless it's necessary for us

to talk about them. So that's our little dynamic. So a lot of the stuff, like Lori won't even watch a lot of this. You know what I mean? I was like, hey, some of it's about. Still to this day. Yeah, because she doesn't need to.

She doesn't want to. She has no desire. She doesn't care. And she's not want to, she has no desire, she doesn't care, and she's not impressed. She's always been my grounding agent. You know what I mean? She's been what's connected me to reality, true reality, not what I may believe reality is at the time.

So yeah, she has no interests. There was a lot of times, like see me in training, teaching guys or talking about teaching guys, she's like, wow, I didn't know you knew that, you know? And I'm like, yeah, I kind of know stuff about this, you know, it's a big joke with us. But she's always been my, that's why she's my person, man. I, yeah, it wouldn't be, wouldn't have made it through all that stuff then and now.

Yeah, so that stuff started, I think, kind of a theme that I've seen with some others, not everyone. Because there's, for me, it was an accumulation effect. That's when I talked about that chip in the way of the humanity piece. You know, so I was, you know, it was more war, you know, and it was real, and it was intense, and there was a lot of gunfights, man, it was a lot of really messed up stuff. All the way, especially Bloody 05 into 06, and then in 06 was where it all changed for me. Short version of the mission is that we're No short version. Well, the OPSEC-wise short version

is we were on a three-day mission with a conventional unit. This team that I was, it wasn't my team, it was all guys that I knew, but they were short of two IC, and they needed me to come with them on this three-day OP. And it was in, they called it the Triangle of Death, Makhmudiyah, Yusufiyah, just south of Baghdad. It was a southern foreign fighter pipeline.

And that's when we had just lost the guy, you know, the trip before, they shot down three or four helicopters. I mean, it was on. So we wanted to clean up that area. It's full of foreign fighters. And so it was good. And this battalion, so it was a battalion operation.

And we were just there to augment and assist. And we had our sniper team. And I was two IC, had a team leader, and two other dudes, so four of us. And so we had this conventional unit doing battalion ops. had a team leader and two other dudes, so four of us. And so with this conventional unit, doing battalion ops, I mean, it was textbook, you know, like companies out, you know, mortars in the back, fire support,

blocking positions, you know what I mean? It was like textbook. It's kind of epic in this shitty area. But it was also kind of a setup, like they knew that we were coming, you know, and those were real fighters, you know, that are there. That's where they had,

it's the old Russian power plant, where they had mangled the 101st guys that got, that they mangled them all up. Remember they captured them, and that was that same area. Same bridges, same places where they found them. So we were in that area, and we're helping them out with

fires and all the different stuff. But we also got a sniper duties that we're doing. Well, man, we're taking like easy 20 rounds, probably more, but minimal, like 20 rounds of mortar fire within a hundred meter radius of the position that we're at. a mortar fire within a hundred meter radius of the position that we're at. You know what I mean? Like it's damn near dial, you know what I mean? They're just walking it, adjusting fire on each one. And it's along the river,

so it's all that single canopy jungle, you know, where they're firing the mortars from. So companies are going out looking for them and that kind of stuff. So we're sitting there eating all these rounds and in this area that we're at is our sniper position. And then you got the rest of the battalion is out doing ops, headquarters is in an area,

but the mortars are at near our position. So you've got the mortar tubes are there and the mortar gun teams in this little trailer, there was pre-existing structure that was there, but it's literally a single-eyed trailer that's there. The FTC guys, Mobile Ballistic Computers, you know what I mean, the mortars, the mortar guys, they're in that trailer because they're running fire missions out of there.

They're dropping mortars for the teams that are out. We're just doing that. So we eat all those rounds and we go and talk to the command because they were friends of ours. The guys were like, hey, they're dialing that position in. Number one, we're not staying there. And number two is like, hey, let's, you don't have to have that position. Like we can cover that bridge, you know what I mean, back from over here. And they made the decision to keep guys there,

and I don't fault them for it, because it's conventional guys, you know, a conventional mindset, kind of die in place positions. You know what I mean? It's just, I understand it. I don't fault them for it at all. I'm BSing with a couple of the dudes and we're all kitted up, everybody's doing what they're supposed to be doing.

And then, 82 millimeter mortar round lands 20 yards from me and it landed in the trailer between the FDC guys, right in between the two of them, right there. That one landed right there in between them. Damn. So these two guys are hit, so I mean, super close. Got blown off my feet, broken wrist, knocked out for don't know how short or how long,

but then come to, and then when I come to, there's nothing but, I mean, we ate the round, so it's just nothing but dirt and dust and smoke and fire. Cause you ever seen a single wide trailer? Like a single wide trailer burned from end to end within about seven minutes, you know what I mean? So that thing was already on fire cooking. But then I come to, and I look around,

and realize like what has happened, and then man, the screams start. You know what I mean? As far as the guys screaming, and the sound that no one had ever prepared me for and that I'd never heard anybody talk about. Now I'd heard enemy screaming before, different, right, wrong, or indifferent. It's different to me.

But it was Americans, men, screaming and making sounds that grown men shouldn't make. And so it was like, all right, what? Overwhelmed and something's wrong. I mean, I knew it just got blown up. So I was like, okay, whatever. So there's a fire and I mean, I know what had happened. Like, holy shit, it hit the guys. I knew there was four guys in that thing.

So it's on fire. All their gear's in there. I mean, they're fully kitted out, Combat Lotus. So cook-offs are about to start. There's all kinds of, you know, not primed, I can't think of the word, live mortar rounds, 81s, you know, sitting right there to be in the tube. They're prepped, ready to launch.

You know what I mean? Fused up, ready to go. And so I'm pulling these guys out, because there's not, again, back to not really any medics around. And we got two guys that are up on the gun. Me and another operator are down there working, and all the other guys are working

in pockets of different dudes. And yeah, man, and it was, so just start working. I ended up putting like you know four tourniquets on you know three different guys I mean they were bad blow blown up you know and um and I'm just man I'm not something wrong and so anyway doing all of that stuff But what had happened in that moment when I'm going through it, and all the emotions that are going through me

and my mind that has now received a traumatic brain injury, because I can trace my life up to September the 1st of 2006, what my life was like before that, and my life, what it's like been after that. But during that time, everyone that I knew had been blown up by it to some degree, you know, and so I didn't think of nothing of it. But at that time what happened to that was my third mass casualty event. And it, so I had something broken in my head, but also, man, my heart broke into a million pieces. And then those million pieces broke into a million pieces. Man, I was devastated.

And the reason why I was devastated was because when we were around the conventional guys, especially, we were like big brother. You know what I mean? Hey, we're around, everybody feels better. Like, hey man, we're like, oh fuck, dudes are here. Like we're right, you know, and I loved that. I mean, that's who I want to be, you know.

But I had a little bit of distorted thinking and, you know, misconception that like I could actually protect them. It's unrealistic expectation, but my job was to protect American soldiers, especially the ones that were around me. And so now for the third time, I had failed to do that. So what does a protector do when he's failed to protect that which matters the most. Because deployed status, my loyalty chain is American soldiers, the number one.

And I can't protect them. I have failed in that mission. So it was devastating, man. And then everything and whatever else was going on inside of me, now with a broken decision maker, you know, in the executive functioning of my brain. So it was the big heroes, you know, of that day, man, was because then the whole time they were packing the guys up, dead guys packaged up. It's daylight still, man.

Those birds aren't coming. This is the triangle of death. They call it because the helicopters have been shot down. It's like, man, but I know we're just going through the motions to keep the morale up for as long as we can, you know what I mean? Because how it affects wounded soldiers, you know what I mean? Like, hey, you got it, hang in there. And man, and just sitting there, and then next thing you know.

Fuck. Yeah. I mean, I was just like, dumping of emotion, man. Cause I just, I had already accepted that I'd already got into the mission planning of like how we're gonna talk through this out, like why they're not coming and like, hey, you know, how we're always trying to problem solve of like how we're going to keep morale up because they're not fucking coming.

So I was already way down that road and then they started coming in, man. It was just overwhelming, man, because that was at that moment, at that time and that place the most dangerous thing any humans could ever do. And I guarantee you that they got asked if they wanted to do that mission. Because that was a no-fly zone. Period. End of story. That's it.

And so they came in, man, and they came in and landed. And we loaded the guys up, went back. So obviously super intense, but that wasn't the end of it. So then, so I'm like hurting physically now, and then all of that emotion's going off, and then all of those screams just on repeat in my head, and I failed at protecting, you know what I mean? I'm happy, you know what I mean?

All of that is just like on me, in me and through me. in my head and I failed at protecting, you know what I mean? All of that is just like on me, in me and through me. And so, hey, we switch out with the guys on the tower and some of the guys that we switched out on the tower was a guy I went to Q course with, you know, and so we switch out with that. So they're there. So here we are in our new position, September the second. So that was September

the first when that happened. September the second, we were talking about dates and numbers earlier, right? My sob one of the Mace, so I'm sitting there on that tower, so happy to be alive, right? I mean, like, whoa, I'm so happy to be alive. And with the same conviction, felt like, felt like such a coward for being that happy

about being alive when all these others had died and all these other families had just lost their loved ones. And I'm happy about being alive. Logically, I know that doesn't make sense, but in that moment, in that time, it was just overwhelming. So this miraculously beautiful day for me, meaning my sobriety day, you know what I mean? And everything that had come up from that time,

from then to now, now that same date is this date, you know? And shortly after the sun came up, another mortar round landed right where my rucksack was, where those new guys that from the tower we had just switched off, two more dead, more injured, more birds coming in on my sobriety day. Shit. Yeah, man. So it was a lot. So back to how do you recover, how do you get back in the game?

You know what I mean? Like, okay, I've just failed at my mission of protecting American soldiers. Well, I either quit, which I'm not going to quit. So then how do I reconcile it? It's like, okay, if I can't protect them from a defensive kind of posture, it's like, if there's not any bad guys to harm them, then they can't be harmed. So my next, from that moment to my last deployment in 2009,

was about killing as many of them as could be, or capturing as many as you could, but get them out of the game, you know what I mean, because they can't hurt the others. But that's when it got personal. You know, and as I said, I had an undiagnosed, untreated TBI, which meant that my executive functioning and, you know, and from a physiological level,

I was no longer processing, you know, chemicals right, you know, at that time. So from that time. So from that time on, it became personal. And I was really good at it, which was another really trippy thing. I didn't think too long about it. Again, we talked about my beliefs

and I trust that my God is gonna put me exactly where I need to be, when I need to be there, all that stuff. And it was a little bit trippy, right? Because it was, I was ate up with it. Like I would do all the target, a lot of the target packets, you know what I mean? I'm putting them together on the intel side of the house

and I geeked out over that stuff too, man. I was a total nerd. And so I would get in on the targeting aspects of it and then obviously get in on the hits. Then I did the battlefield interrogations too. So I mean, start to finish, I was working the whole target to set up more targets. That was my life and I loved it and I was good at it.

And one of the weird things that I didn't study on too much is that, and it just is a testament to the power of my God, you know what I mean? It's like I'm one person, right? One brain doing these things. And in one aspect of my life, say a guy that I'm sponsoring, you know, through the 12 steps and in sobriety,

my job is to help them build their spirit up. You know what I mean? Because they're crushed. Like how do I build them? You know what I mean? A they're crushed. Like, how do I build them? You know what I mean? A system building them as a man, as a human, their spirit, you know, everything. And I was doing that, and I'm good at that.

And then in the other field, my job is to break this man's spirit. The complete opposite, and I'm really good at that too. It's like, how do those two things coexist? I don't know. I just say my prayers. I show up to work and I do what's in front of me. But the thing is, is that now tying that back into,

that's what the thing of what changed it for the war and back to the humanity aspect of it started really being effective because it was personal. None of my actions were the same. It wasn't like all of a sudden I started running around killing people, you know what I mean? Because that wasn't the case. It was just the intent, you know, was so much different. And then, you know, I mean, it's 2006. I probably did. Did you find yourself

anticipating more? Meaning? Like, hoping that they make, we talked about your first engagement. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was very... Hoping they'd vote to shoot? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, because it was the whole thing. I mean, me and a lot of us warriors that... Do what I... At that time, it was... Please do what I need you to do. Yes, so we can get back to normal gameplay. Back to the rules, the rules of war. That's what we would always say is like,

man, would somebody please just start shooting? You know? Because prior to the shots being fired, you know, it's kind of like that Terminator screen. Like, you know, you're looking and there's 10 things coming to your mind. Your processes and everything, is it a threat? Is it not a threat?

Is it high? You know what I mean? You're like, it is consuming. You know what I mean? Just making, looking at the team, looking at movement, where are we on NAV? You know what I mean? All looking at the team, looking at movement, where are we on Nav, you know what I mean? All of that stuff. And then they start shooting, it's like,

oh, now we all know the rules. Yeah. Yeah, so it would just be, but not in a, but even with me wanting that to happen, it wasn't this viciousness of, it was just like, hey man, let's vote quicker. Let's get the gameplay going. You know, you vote faster. What does that mean?

Meaning that if they were gonna, whatever the trigger was to meet the rules of engagement, which all that changed depending on the level of intel, if they were physically on target, that may meet the trigger for engagement, or if they had weapons, or it was the demonstration, how they moved the ANUA aggressively kind of piece. So it was just the want for it to go to whatever way

it was going too fast enough, either come out quicker or- Is that an individual vote or a team vote? You mean a US guy side? I'm talking about them voting, the bad guy side. Okay. No, I'm talking about the bad guys voting. Yeah, no, team wise, we were always on the same thing

because everybody was in alignment with the ROE. You know what I mean? So if, and if the ROE was dependent on some missions where you were kill targets, where it's like, oh, if they're on target PID, that's the trigger. You know what I mean? If it was, if they have guns, they have guns trigger.

If it was, they need to be shooting at us, then it needs to be, you know what I mean? So per ROE, whatever that was, we wanted them to vote quicker. You know what I mean? Like to get on, let's get on with it so we can get onto the next mission. So we-

You're the only unit that I've heard that uses that term. What? Vote. Vote, oh really? Yeah, I've heard several, I've interviewed several of you guys now, and I've just, I've not heard the term before. Yeah, because we're willing to go.

Well, I mean, we're going to go with our ROE. So the so when you say when we talk about voting, yeah, you're saying are they going to. Vote to live or vote today. Yeah, absolutely. So if especially if it's like a vehicle interdiction or something that's hard and fast and you have to make quick decisions, super fast, or a lot of people are gonna get hurt,

it's like it might be like, hey, if they do anything other than compliance, immediate and 100% compliance, then they voted that we're now rolling it into the next phase, you know what I mean? Which is now, is it from capture to kill? Got it. Because of the ROE. But yeah, it's always their vote, not us.

Yeah. Yeah. So that, as far as when I'm using it, that term. Yeah, makes sense. Yeah. So that was, yeah, man, it was a lot of those, you know, and I just always had incredible teammates, man, and they really kept me on the rails because those last few years, you know what I mean, last few deployments, you know, I was,

I was not okay, not okay emotionally. I mean, my performance was still fucking perfect, you know what I mean, but it was not okay, not okay emotion. I mean, my performance was still fucking perfect. You know what I mean? But it was, I was already struggling a lot, you know? And I always knew that I was like, man, something's bad, wrong. Like, cause my tools aren't working, you know? Prior to this point, all my tools,

whether it was prayer, meditation, talking, reaching back, I mean, could always, one thing that I haven't talked about this whole time is my actual brother was with me In the 82nd in the Special Forces and at the unit we were in different So you're getting me was that your brother was with you? Yeah Yeah, not in the exact like with me on the ground in the same Subunit, you know mean but like we were in like when we were in the 82nd We were in different brigades of it. We're in the 82? But like we were in, like when we were in the 82nd, we were in different brigades,

but we were in the 82nd together. When we were in special forces, I was in seventh group, he was in third group. When we were out at the unit, you know, he was in the breacher side, I was on the operator side. So we were, our path was the same path along the way. Whoa. So I would be able to-

Whoa, hold on. So let's go back to that conver- I did not realize that. Yeah. So let's go back to that conversation in the truck. Yeah So he was all he's also an operator. No on the breacher side Okay, so he was on the pure breacher side But you know a lot of the same training criteria and on the same deployments just different job set Yeah, so he was direct support for Sabre.

So he was on all the targets, doing all that stuff, in all the fights and stuff. But he was on the breacher side. Holy shit. Yeah, so I could even- This isn't even so- It's a family ordeal, yeah. I mean, it's, well, what I'm getting at is,

I had assumed that your brother was a civilian who had not been exposed to any type of combat trauma. Yeah. And you struck an emotion with him when he realized that killing no longer affected you, correct? Yeah. Whenever I said the only time I feel anything. So that's even deeper than what I had originally thought because he had been exposed to all of that.

Oh, he had been, yeah, man. And to hear you say it with his exposure to it. Is why he was crying. I mean, because killing is a fucking, I mean, it's part of it. Exactly. And, and, wow. Yeah, man, that was why he was alive.

That's a lot of killing. Yeah, man, cause he was qualified, you know what I mean? He really knew what, he had felt the loss, he had been in the fights, you know what I mean? All of that same thing. He was, you know what I mean? He got a different job while he was still being out there. He got moved into upper management kind of deal.

So he wasn't, you know, on the ground as much, but, you know. When a civilian sees the change, it's just, it's a different level. It's different even when- It's a different level because he'd been exposed and been a part of it. Completely, man. And so he's also somewhat,

has to be somewhat emotionally detached and calloused. And so to have somebody close to you, it's just different. It's different than a civilian friend who has no- No context, no point of reference. Exactly. There is no point of reference for them. They just, they know that it's sad. But for that, it takes it to a completely different level.

Yeah, so I think a good comparison between the two is my wife, cause she's a badass, you know what I mean, as far as that piece, but she's civilian piece of it, and my brother, right? So my brother gets sad, and my wife sees, because you talked about seeing the change, seeing the difference, so my wife who knows me inside and out, you know what I mean,

just has to look at me and know what's going on. Her response was, is like, yeah, you brought the monster home, you know, in her words. She said that. Oh yeah, yeah. Cause she knew what was going on, man. And you know what I'm saying?

Like she's been in the game just as long as I have. I mean, not doing the game, but in that world, like during our whole deployment time, you know, it was the kid, I mean, it was like some movie, man, like we lived the times, like there was six of us living in the same subdivision, all of our kids were kind of the same age, they were running around the neighborhoods, you know what I mean, we told them

that like, yeah, daddy's going on a soldier trip, you know, that's what we called them, you know what I mean? And then, but then as they got older, you know what I mean, and we're going to hospitals and now we're going to Arlington, well, what happened to Uncle Mikey, you know what I mean? But then as they got older, you know what I mean? And we're going to hospitals, and now we're going to Arlington. Well, what happened to Uncle Mikey? You know what I mean? Oh, he got hurt on a soldier trip.

Like, oh, so now it's, you know what I mean? So all of our kids are growing up during that time, so everybody had to grow up super fast. You know what I mean? The kids, the wife, and then the wives holding it down. Like, I mean, single mother for, you know, at least half of my children's life, she was single mom through it.

You know, and she's a badass, you know what I mean? We don't hold, we're always respectful with our words, but we also don't hold back, you know? When she meant it was like, meaning like, hey, you need to do something about that. Because now you've brought the monster home. How did that make you feel when she said that? Did you feel?

No, well, it made me, it was like, the only thing that I felt like was like, damn, I wasn't doing a good as job as pretending as I thought I was. Because I knew, man, the switch had occurred. You know what I mean? I knew something inside had changed me. And I knew that for the time being,

I was still going to continue on this mission that I was on. What was it that triggered her to say that to you? How I started reacting and not reacting. You know what I mean? And my distance, my emotional distance, and how long it would take for me to recover from a trip. You know what I mean, as far as to be back present with the family. You know, you know what I mean, as far as to be back present with the family.

You know, and especially during that time, you know, just with a regular brain, you know, not having getting blown up. And you know, so many of us have been blown up, you know, I'm not the only one, you know, kind of guy. But during those same times, you know what I mean, we're coming back, sometimes within 24 hours of doing an op, you know, 48, you know, I mean, all

the time kind of deal as far as coming back. And then, and then like going to take the kids to school, you know what I mean? After like 48, like just killing kids dad in front of him, you know, kind of deal. So it was like, okay, and now I'm doing this. It was like so trippy. That's why my hat's off to law enforcement. You know, they do it daily sometimes, but back to me, it's like, and then I would be in the kid's world.

And this was one of the things, man, that was just always so, I go back to the humanity aspect of it, where I didn't ever lose my humanity, but it was kind of like it was being obscured, like covered up a bit to enable me to continue on, almost as a survival skill, because my true humanity would be exposed

whenever I go to my kid's elementary school, you know what I mean? And there's all these eight, nine-year-olds, right? Just angels, you know? And then they would start like singing, my country tis of thee, you know, I mean, in that kid voice, I would start fucking coming apart. And I'm just sitting there because that's what, you know, I mean, that's humanity, right? Like that is the essence, our children, you know,

of everything that is beautiful and wonderful in Like that is the essence, our children, you know, of everything that is beautiful and wonderful in life and my own even, you know, blood in that. And it's like, but I'm the, you know what I mean? I'm not healing that, you know what I mean? I'm not addressing that side of it because I have to keep on going. Cause I can't be having that kind of stuff doing what I'm doing.

For me at that time, it didn't no longer coexist because of the accumulation of all the different things. Yeah. But that's whenever it would also be, even though it'd be crushing to me, it also gave me a little bit of relief of like, okay, I'm still, that part of me is still me. I'm not a robot. I'm not emotionless. I'm not a monster, you know, kind of deal.

Yeah, so it was, there was a lot going on during those times and I had to process a lot of it and then it all got backed up. And that was what led me to end up getting out. Was... And that was what led me to end up getting out was- Let's, before we do that, before we get to you getting out, I'd like to, I know this is a tough ask, but a lot of guys struggle with this.

Okay. And so it's something that I like to bring up because of at least half this audience is coming, are GY vets. Yeah. Who've experienced loss. And I know we've talked about your experience with American loss, but what about a brother?

Yeah. Yeah, I've experienced a teammate loss. Yeah. Yeah. Have you experienced that? Not on my team. Good for you. Now, but on a, you know, in the troop though,

you know what I mean? And really, really good friends, best of friends that weren't, I didn't, they didn't die with me, but I mean, I mean like in the moment right then and there. But I have lost them, you know. How do you deal with that? How I deal with that is like honoring them.

Yeah, and I think the better way of demonstrating not so much is, because then the next question will be, how do you honor? I think the next question should be, or the next thing to talk about is how we dishonor them, because that's the easier one. So I dishonor, I honor the dead by the life I live now, or I dishonor them. And how I dishonor them, I mean, dude,

like getting pissed drunk and slaughtering and crying and like, oh my God, I miss you so much. Like, is that honoring them? Like if you, you know what I mean? Me and you are best friends, I died, you know what I mean? For you, in place of you, or I just died and we're teammates and you didn't. You know what I mean?

Let's say that I did, maybe I even saved you or something. You know what I mean? And now, now the gift that you've been given, you're gonna just like, bro, that's the best you can do with like the gift I gave you. I'm glad you're saying that. Yeah, bro, that's the best you can do with like the gift I gave you. I'm glad you're saying that. Yeah, bro, because it's bullshit, man. And I-

You live life to the fullest, like they would want you to live. That's our responsibility, man. Anything other than that, and I have failed at it miserably. Let me tell you that. I'm not, again, I don't, I got all the t-shirts, keychains,

I don't judge any other man, but I judge what is a fact. And it is a fact, if I am not living my life to the best, I mean, to the best of my ability because of their sacrifice, that shit's on me, of being a shitty, dishonoring teammate. That is my judgment of me, not of you, but that is my judgment, man. Because all that they did for us,

I go back to when we started this with, man, me riding on the shoulders of giants, man, all of that stuff that all those guys did, and I'm given this gift of doing better. There was a time when I was ignorant and I couldn't do better. I was just a dumb ass, you know? But now I have an option

and I'm choosing to stay in this bullshit, self-pity, dishonoring thing. Yeah, fuck that. That's what I say to that thing. And it's totally dishonoring if that's what you choose to continue to do. And I'll be happy to fight over it. You know what I mean?

Where it's like, cause our job man is to honor them, tell their stories, like talk about them, like, but it's painful for us. Like we don't want to like, I'll talk about this and that, but I don't want to talk about that.

That's what we need to talk about, man. You know what I mean? That's what we need to celebrate. That's what we need. You know what I mean? That's what it's all about. But it's so hard. You know what I mean?

It's super hard to do, man. But I live my life and fail at it miserably on times to honor the sacrifices they made, man, without being a, you know, enthusiastically, you know what I mean, joyfully. I mean, I get sad as shit, you know what I mean? Like, I've all experienced like a lot of, I'm actually sad a lot of the times, you know what I mean? It's like, cause there's a lot of shit to be sad about,

you know, but I'm also super happy, you know what I mean? I'm also living a good life because I don't, you know what I mean? I'm also living a good life because I don't, you know what I mean? Like we're all, we're gonna see them again. I mean, my belief system is I'm gonna see those guys again and they're gonna be like, hey motherfucker. Yeah, it's gonna be AAR time. In the team room.

It's gonna be in the team room with the door locked, and now we're gonna have an AAR on what Tom did and didn't do. I know that, man, like I know they're waiting. I mean, that's just my belief system, man. So I don't wanna, I don't wanna fucking deal with them, man. Like, you know what I'm saying? Cause they're gonna, I don't to have them hand me my ass. I mean, they can handle me screwing up at times,

and you know what I mean, and that piece, man. But I don't want to dishonor them, man. I want to dishonor my current family. It's hard, bro. Man, I'll tell you, I don't know a lot of guys that came through that don't need any help. In fact, I don't know any. Yeah, man.

Do you? Well, no, I mean, yes, I have seen guys that have, like that are doing, in my opinion, they're doing really well. Guys that, I mean, but they're like oddities, you know what I mean? Like they're the, you know, just the freak shows and they're just great humans and they process all right.

And from my knowing, they're doing all right, but they're like a super, super zero, zero point zero percent. You know, but yeah, but most people just even just in life in general, man, you know what I mean? Like, look how hard life is just regular. And now you talk about always we always joke about it's like we live, we've lived dog lives. we always joke about is like, we've lived dog lives. You know what I mean? Like, cause one deployment is like three years, a minimum of three years of a regular human being's life. I mean, most people just lose a significant other

a few times in their life. Like we would do it maybe twice in one deployment. You know what I mean? Like someone that we truly loved. You know what I mean? So you can't stack up that much life experience because I don't like even calling it trauma. Like it's war, man. Like we go to war.

War is fucking horrible, you know what I mean? But that's what it is. And we just help, it helps us categorize it by saying traumatic because it is trauma on the brain and emotions and that kind of stuff. But that's what the show is, man. Like, there's no war without that stuff. And to think that we can get through it,

or to think that I can get through it without needing assistance, you know. Man, I did it to learn how to shoot the pistol at 25 meters, you know what I mean? I didn't learn that on my own. I had an instructor. I didn't do physical therapy on my own. When I had shoulder surgery, I had a physical therapist.

So now my emotions are out of whack. I'm not gonna go see my teammate. You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna go see someone or do something in a different vein. But I do, as you can tell, I get fired up, man, when I hear guys whining about loss and suicide and they're not doing a fucking thing about it.

You know what I mean? Except talking. Yeah. They're just talking about how awful it is and how we need to do something about it. I mean, there's a good group of dudes that is, you know what I mean? But the majority, they'll talk about it

and they'll share to where it costs them. There's so many, it's like, when I asked that question to you at the beginning, how do you get ahead of PTSD? What would your advice be? You know, and I know I get fired up about it too, because this isn't 2006 when you got out and nobody was talking about this

and nobody knew how to deal with it. And you didn't have anybody to talk to because everybody's still in it. And now there's just, I think that, I fucking hate saying this, but I think that there is a portion of the veteran community that has really embraced becoming a victim.

Yeah. And now there's just not a valid excuse anymore. Yeah. No. Just like we had said at the very beginning, there's so many, even just on this show, you know, there are so many different avenues that you can go and find what fits for you. And there's example after example after example of of warfighter and warfighters who've been on the show who have done all these different all

Started things been through things, you know, there must be at least a dozen different avenues of ways to a Good start. Yeah, you know pick one to get train fucking go with it. Yeah, you know and There's no more there's no there's just no excuse anymore. No, you know for there's no more, there's just no excuse anymore. No. You know, for... It's choice, choosing that. Choosing to be, like you said, it's not available. Okay, hey, figure it out.

Happiness is a choice. Yeah, man. Getting better is a choice. It is. You know, and... And nobody owes you a fucking thing, man. Yeah. Like I did this for my country.

Bro, it's a volunteer army. Yeah. Volunteer military. No, I this for my country. Roe's a volunteer army, volunteer military. No, I didn't get drafted. Now I believe in the workman's comp aspect of it. You know what I mean? As far as injuries that I got, like, okay on that piece. But I mean, like, hey, like, like American owe me for what I did. Like, no, man, I've, like, no one owes me anything.

Like that entitlement mentality. Like, hey, yeah, the US government owes you something because you were government equipment that got damaged and now like, okay, they need to compensate that piece of what's damaged, not for what's made up, but what's for what's actually damaged. But then other than that, man, it's like, what are you doing?

Yeah. Like, get to work. Like, because this total victim mentality and that entitlement, because I see it all the time, and it's actually an entitlement mentality is a victim mentality. Yeah. Like, you owe me something, you know what I mean,

because of what I did, you know what I mean? It's conditional. That's a great point. That's a great point. You know what I mean? Because I just look at that whole, like having not taken responsibility for your own self, you know what I mean?

And what you have done in your life and where you're at and where you're going, you're being a victim. Well, I had all these traumas going like, okay, but there's all these avenues of seeking help that most of them will be for free if you look hard enough. Somebody is gonna pay that ship. You don't have any money and for real don't have any,

not just money that you don't wanna spend. You know, because that's, and this population is a lot too. It's like, again, because they think they owe something, but I mean, that victim mentality, you can never get better. Yeah. Because if you're my problem, I'm screwed.

Because I'll have a problem anytime you want me to have one. But if I'm the problem, now I can do something. You know what I mean? Because that's complete ownership. I'm at choice. Like, yeah, all these things happen to me and yeah, that sucked. And yeah, I struggle greatly for it now,

like on the TBI side. And this is what I'm doing about it. Cause if you ask me, Hey, would I change anything? I'll say, hell no. Just that accountability, that response. I mean, the better word is responsibility of me taking responsibility for myself.

And it's hard, you know what I mean? A lot of us aren't trained. I wasn't trained to do that. I've had all these teachers throughout my life. You know what I mean? Especially post, you know, post-military, you know what I mean? It was...

I had a guy on here the other day. There are 70, 70, over 70 nonprofits designed just to help special ops guys. Oh yeah. That's 70 different avenues that you can go to for free, You know, I think, you know, I wish they had more for the conventional guys.

See, and that's where my heart always goes to. I mean, I love my spec guys, you know what I mean? That stuff, but I mean, we got a lot of, we got it good, you know what I mean? Who my big concern is the conventional guys and the cops, you know what I mean? The people that don't have those avenues. That's one of the things I love about Warrior's Heart

is what you're doing, what you and your partner started. I'm sorry, his name escapes me now, but it's for everybody. Josh, oh yeah, man. Correct? Yeah, that is absolutely correct. And that was actually one of my patron's questions too, is where can conventional guys go and get help because there is a bunch for them. You know, and I mean, you know, as tough as those stories,

those not stories, as tough as those experiences were for you to articulate, you know, with the mass casualty events, those are conventional guys. Oh my God. And all these people are starting these nonprofits and they're all for spec operators. Sexy spec op guys. And it sucks, man.

It fucking sucks because it was grunt Marines that took the brute, the front of Fallujah. Oh yeah. that took the front of Fallujah. And there's just not that much out there for a man. Yeah, and that's what my heart, I mean, my only combat patch that I wear is my 82nd patch. Cause that's, I mean, that's how I was raised.

Don't forget where you come from, boy. Yeah. You know, like, yeah, I mean, but it's wild, you know, we're kind of man, but it's wild, you know, kind of switched it up a little bit, but as hard as all those things were in the military and all of that stuff, you know, experiencing those events, transitioning out of the military

and dealing with those events was 10 times harder. Because I didn't have a gray hair for one, when I was in the military doing all that stuff. I'd get out, you know, have to get a job and learn all this other stuff and all these healing modalities and cognitive therapy and vestibular therapy. I was like, fuck, it's kicking my ass. But it all worked. So what was it that made you to separate from the unit? Yeah, so number one, it was time. But again, back to me trusting in God, like I'm too hard-headed, was kind of too screwed up.

You know what I mean? I was leaning more towards what's better for the team than for the family. Not in a horrible way, but it was leaning that way and I knew it and couldn't do anything about it. My saving grace was my back. So I've broken my back in 2003, surgery in 2004, re-injured my back in 2007 significantly.

So I couldn't wear kit anymore without taking narcotics. And because I was sober, like I'm not going to go down that road. You know what I mean? And so I physically couldn't wear kit without the headaches, the actual physical pain was more than I could tune out. It was seeping into my that. So physically I couldn't wear kit anymore.

If I couldn't wear kit anymore, then I wasn't going to do the job anymore. Because the only reason why I ever wanted to do the job was because of the kid. And so, I mean, a bigger man would have probably taken a support job and, you know, give back. I was not that guy at that time. I was like, I can't do it. I successfully avoided all the bullshit. It's almost humorous you say give back. Yeah. But I was done and the only, when I wrote up the pros

and cons for staying in, because the cool thing was, is I still, I mean, I had a good reputation. They wanted me to do another year of team time, which not everybody, you know, everybody got two years if you didn't screw up. Not everybody got three, I got offered three. So that was really cool. But physically you didn't screw up. Not everybody got three, I got offered three, so that was really cool. But physically I couldn't do it.

And when I added up the positives and negatives, and I never cared about being a S.R. major, I never cared about rank and higher position, man. I'm that dumb ass private, you know, at heart. I mean, the greatest job I ever had in my life was two IC on the teams, you know what I mean? Because you had to, that's my style of leadership is like being upfront, you know, leading from

the front. It's just what I've always been really good at. And those days were gone. And yeah, but I couldn't wear kit anymore. So I guess it's like, man, I'm getting out. It was super hard though, because I'd planned on doing 30 years, man. I was, I was a super lifer. I was like, I'm not leaving the Army until they kick me out, you know?

But then all the different things happened, and then once I decided, like, hey, I'm going to get out, and it was a family decision, you know, because we weren't doing that great at the time. I mean, we weren't going to get a divorce or separated or anything, but I mean, I mean, we're going to get a divorce or separated or anything. But I mean, I mean, when it's like when you ask guys, what did you do in your 30s? Like all of our 30s, my wife and my wife, we were in and out of war. You know what I mean?

The whole time our children in and out of war. Like I didn't bring it off. Make sure a picture, if it's okay with my wife anyway, I'll make sure the picture gets up, man. If you look at the picture of my retirement ceremony, you know, me and my wife and kids, you just see how tired they are, man. They're just, I mean, they're all in.

You know what I mean? Wasn't anything bad, loved me, you know, as good. But it's just like, you can see their eyes and they're just like fucking tired, man. Just because that tempo, you know what I mean? And then as kids, you know, if there's anyone that's, people like talking about sacrificing, man, I didn't sacrifice anything.

I didn't, I volunteered for all of that, man. I volunteered for it. I didn't plan on the injuries, some of the injuries that I got. The sacrifice means that, you know what I mean? I have a, you know, I'm doing something I don't want to do. I'm sacrificing this. It wasn't I traded my family time for the war tent

based on my priorities and what I thought was right. You know what I mean? You know, so they sacrificed because they didn't want me to go. Yeah. You know what I mean? So all the, it's the families that sacrifice. Unless a draft kicks up again, like, okay, then I'll buy that you sacrificed. Because I chose to go to all those different things and do all the different things that

I did. Like, for me, I have to stay in that mindset or I'll start feeling sorry for myself. You know, because I have bad days, you know, I mean, go through a lot of life is difficult, like we said at times, and I can't handle an ounce of self-pity, you know, it creeps in enough as it is, you know, and talking about sacrifice, like, hell no, man.

Yeah. Yeah, so, oh no, I got off on that little tangent, but that's what the choices of getting out was that's just How everything had kind of lined up? And man it was time right because when I first came in I told you about the Vietnam vets So you had the ones that were helping me out, but then you had the other Vietnam vets that would be like Oh army's gone to shit. You know what I mean? It's bunch of pussies running it. You know, I mean they were just like gone to shit, you know what I mean? There's a bunch of pussies running, you know what I mean?

They were just like, you know, they hated everybody and everything, you know, and it's like, and the new recruits, you know, it's like, you're gonna hate it, it's gonna be the worst spirit, you know what I mean? And I was like, meanwhile, we're like, this is the best thing ever. Well, they left, we became what we became, you know?

So I started becoming that guy. So thank God I realized it myself, but you know, everybody was fucked up. You're all fucked up. That's stupid plan. We did that in 05. We tried that in 08. In nine, that sucked.

This is stupid. You're fucking idiot. And I was like, oh my God, man. Like I'm that guy now. I was like, ah. And I came to the conclusion, man. Like I'm that guy now. I was like, ah. And I came to the conclusion, man, is that it was just time to go.

It was like, hey man, it was a good run. So I made the decision. They ended up med boarding me, you know what I mean, and starting that process, which is a whole nother thing. But the next kind of thing that came up is I had never missed a deployment. You had three major surgeries, back surgery, leg surgery, shoulder surgery, in between deployments.

I never missed a deployment with my team, ever. My back surgery was a six month rehab, but I finished up my rehab and went on the next deployment because I was just dumb. But the team was everything. And I was wondering, it was like, man, how am I going to deal with, like, they're getting on the plane and heading to Afghanistan.

I'm not. Up until that moment, anytime they had gotten on the plane and headed anywhere, I was with them. And so I was like, whew, what's it going to be like in a man and two? You know, because again, solid decision making, a lot of prayer, a lot of discussion with mentors and people that I trusted.

He says, the right thing to do, man, whether you like it or not, this is the writing on the wall, this is what you need to do. So pull the trigger and started that when those guys deployed, you know, beginning of 11, said prayers for him, sent him off, and I was okay.

You know what I mean? And I was like, part of me was like super relieved because I was so worried that inside of me was like, I should fucking be with him. You know what I mean? That, but it was, I had gotten enough, man. You know, I didn't get all I wanted, but I got all I could stand. You know what I didn't get all I wanted,

but I got all I could stand. You know what I mean? Between physical injuries, brain injuries. What do you think you didn't get that you wanted? Man, I will never not want to kill bad guys and blow shit up. Yeah. Right now I wanna do that. You know what I'm saying?

So it's not what I have to do. That's the way I articulate it too. You know, it's like money. It's never enough. You know what I mean? It becomes like a greed. Yeah, man. I finally realized, I realized one day,

and I still had more years in, it was like, I thought maybe it would run out of me, like I'm going through a phase. Like eventually this will run out, I'll kind of get tired of this. You know what I mean? And it kept going, kept going, and I was like, okay, so I'm not going to run out of it.

It's just a choice. I'm choosing to do this. And if I choose to do it longer, I'm choosing to do it longer. But I'm not going to, but it's not gonna go away. I mean, any American warrior that doesn't want to kill bad guys and blow shit up is not an American warrior.

There's something other, might be something, but they're not that. So yeah, so all of that lined up, man, and it was time to get out. And that's when we really found out what was the matter with me, you know? Because I had one of my best friends throughout the whole time. I would tell him about everything that was going on,

like 100%, how I was thinking, how I was feeling. You know, I mean, he was also in recovery, you know what I mean, he was a in recovery. You know what I mean? He was sober guy. He was working for another special mission unit in Virginia. In 05, he got clipped in the head with an AK at close range. So he had been through all the TBI stuff whenever there wasn't really any TBI stuff, like 05.

You know what I mean? So he was like way ahead of like, he was like, bro, you were fucked up, man. I'm like, really? You know, because I'm thinking like, I'm kind of keeping it together like, yeah, it's a little rough, but you know, it's like everybody I know is like me, you know?

And they're like, yeah, man, well, you're all screwed up. You know, and I was like, ah, and he's like, hey, man, look, just take the test. Like he gave me the test to take, you know, for the TBI piece that are definitive, you know? And so what motivated me to get help, you know? When I was getting out of number one, I didn't care anymore.

You know how in the PTSD scale, you never answer on the far right. You know what I mean, right? Like, but now it was like, I didn't care because I don't, my job doesn't depend on, I don't care about a secret clearance. I'm not going into, I mean, if I was going to stay in the game, I'd have stayed in the unit.

You know what I mean? My war time was over and done, over. I wasn't going to contract. I wasn't, I mean, I was an old broke dude, had a shit ton of fucking hell of a run. You know what I mean? Like that phase was over. So, I wasn't gonna do any of that stuff.

So I was getting all, I wasn't afraid of losing a clearance. You know what I mean? So I told them what I was, what was going on. But the testing, so what got me to the testing was, is that him and I almost fucking blew my own head off with all the support. So I was the guy that was most set up for success. If you were gonna bet on a guy

that was gonna be able to transition and make it out and be super successful, it would have been me if you based it off of the support. Like, okay, he's sober, you know what I mean? Doesn't have the chemical dependency to mess with. He's got a god in his life. He has a support group. He has an incredible loving wife. He has incredible loving family, brother, sister, you know what I mean? He's just got all of this support. He's been sober for this amount of time. He's processed this much trauma. You know, like, fuck, this guy is gonna, he's good to go, man.

With all, and it was all true. And with all of that, I went through a military decision making process on why it might be a good idea to put a bullet in my brain. Cause my thinking wasn't right. So what was going on with me was all this noise was in my head before any, you know,

any of the rehabilitation that I'd had. It was just me off a team now. And it was just all this noise and all these emotions and all this anger and everything going on. I just needed to stop. And in my life, I'd always had enough tools to deal with me, you know, whether and in my life, I don't always had enough tools to deal with me. You know, whether it was my sponsor,

whether it was talking to a spiritual advisor, whether it was prayer, whether it was working with others, whether it was helping out, you know what I mean? Always had tools in the tool belt to turn this off. Well, I'd used every tool in the tool belt and nothing would turn it off. And then I said to myself, was like, well, I know what bullets do to brains.

You know what I mean? That'll turn it off. And then I said to myself, was like, well, I know what bullets do to brains. You know what I mean? That'll turn it off. So it wasn't like my family would be better off and it wasn't like, oh, this is, you know, it wasn't like a horrible feeling moment or it was an actual decision-making process. So that's what I was going down. Course of action one, hey, how did the kids find me?

How does this happen? Like course of action two, like I am like totally logically going through MDMP on why using this is a good idea. Then the grace of God amongst that piece, like I've realized what I was doing. I was like, holy shit, man. Like I'm actually thinking that this is an actual course of action, you know what I mean, of doing that.

And then I went and got help, you know. But the catalyst for that was another warrior, man. My best friend, my buddy Ryan, you know what I mean? My brother who was always constantly in there on me and Ryan saying, bro, you gotta get help, gotta get help, gotta get help, gotta get help, gotta get help. Cause we're not gonna listen to anybody else.

You know what I'm saying? That's just, I mean, the amount of arrogance that we have, you know what I mean? Like we are only gonna, you know what I mean? If you say you've done it, like, okay. You know what I mean? You're giving me, okay. Somebody else, I don't care what they're saying.

It's just how we're wired. So it takes us to do that. You know, it takes a warrior to get a warrior's attention. And then it takes a warrior to heal a warrior also. And so I took all the tests. They're definitive, like eight hours of testing with a clinician, you know what I mean? Verbal memory, puzzles, that was an interesting game too,

man, because I would get so furious, again, because I was having those huge swings and I couldn't figure out how to do a puzzle. Dude, I had so many symptoms, like I would get lost driving to and from work, I'd have to put it in a GPS. Same route for 10 years. You know what I mean? I would get lost at all those big mood swings.

Like I wouldn't know where I was. I mean, it was a mess. And I knew that I was losing my mind again. Cause before I got sober, remember I was almost losing my mind. And now I knew I was going crazy and you can't fix crazy. I know that.

And so, I was really concerned. So I took all those tests, got the results back, met with the neuropsych, sat down with the neuropsych and he's like, hey Tom, I'm reading results. These results are definitive. The tests are set up to prove if someone's faking it. You know, it's bulletproof, man. You know what I mean on what these results are.

And he said, we don't have your solid IQ as a baseline. We just have your general IQ, which we know our IQs are usually much higher than that. And so based off that baseline, he's like, yeah, so cognitively, you're operating 50% processing speed cognitively. Yeah, and then 50% verbal memory. Your brain, those parts of your brains

are working at that capacity. Shit. And he said that, and I felt the biggest relief. Right? That doesn't make sense. No, it doesn't. This is why it makes sense. So I like visibly relax.

Right? So the doc, he's looking at me, super great man, and a great doc. He's a solid man, too. He looks at he looks at me and he's like, hey Tom, and he's wondering if I'm having a cognitive moment, right? And he's like, I need to know that you understand what I just told you, because you did not have the reaction

that I thought you would have. And I was like, hey doc, yeah, like, no, cognitively, I completely understand, you know, I have brain damage and that's bad, 50% processing speed, 50% verbal memory. I said, the reason why I'm relieved though, is you just told me I was injured and that I wasn't crazy. You know, because I can work with injury, you know, I mean, I understand, I really understand

the amount of physical therapy and everything, therapy, I understand that. The crazy you can't fix, you know? And so you just told me I wasn't crazy. So I was super relieved. And then I'm like, okay, now I have an injury. We attack it like all my other injuries, you know? What's the healing modalities?

What's all that? So once we had all that and then, you know, the unit, you know, they did the best that they could. I mean, again, it was full up war was going on. It was 2010, 11 timeframe. I mean, they're full tilt just as they were in 05. You know what I mean? Like that machine is rolling.

So there wasn't a lot of things in place now, as far as to help out or anything like that. And so whenever it came to help, it was basically I needed to get it on my own. Cause once they found out, cause I told them, I was like, Hey, something's wrong with my head. And they're like, well, you're getting older

and maybe this or maybe that. And I was like, no, you need to test me. We've got the tests. Then they seen the results and they're like, holy shit. Like no jumping, no shooting, no, I mean, it was bad. You know, and, and you know, that brain injury is not, is nonlinear. You know, you know, I mean, it's bad. And then it goes to there.

And then, you know, it's all over the place. So that, you know, no, nothing. And so, and then I was like, okay, now I got to start getting all the therapies, you know, it's all over the place. So that, no, no nothing. And so, and then I was like, okay, now I got to start getting all the therapies, you know. So then it was cognitive therapy. So here's like another thing we talked about God and like we were talking about this morning, like knowing that I'm on path, right?

So everything that I'm doing from this moment forward goes against the culture of where I come from at that time. You know what I mean? Quiet professionals, you don't say nothing, that kind of thing. So I was dying, right? Even though I'm sober, like cognitively, vestibularly,

like man, I'm still, I'm not dying, right? But I'm still not recovering yet. So I know how to recover. How do you recover? You talk about it. You know what I mean? With strengths, whatever, you get help, go get help. You know what I mean? Now I don't have to worry about losing my job or anything like that. Like I'm full tilt getting help. So, but I'm not getting any support. And again, I don't blame the unit for that, because they were focused on war and that's where they needed to be focused. We didn't, they didn't have the manpower at the time to focus on folks that were in my situation at the time.

And so I was like, okay, plus I'd have done it on my own anyway. I was super angry, like all those mo's, swings. I had to get out of the army early. I had all kinds of unprocessed trauma. I had untreated TBI. I was not a joy to be around, you know what I mean? And so they were okay with me not being around, you know,

and not because they didn't like me, but it was kind of like, bro, you're a little a lot, you know? So I walk into the TBI clinic there at Wal-Mack and I'm like, yeah, I need an appointment. I got this big beard, you know what I mean? Fucking crazy eyes and I look at a picture of like what I looked like in 2009 and have that look, you know what I mean?

Like the look, the wartime war fighter look, and it's real. So I go in there and like, yeah, I need an appointment. They're like, well, you know, so I get an appointment. So it was like, here's this PTSD thing to fill out, right? And I'm like, okay, you really wanna know? Again, now here we go. So I write it all down and then turn it into them.

And I'm like, well, this ought to be kind of interesting because they're already terrified anyway of us, our types. And now it just turned in that basically I'm almost fucking crazy. You know what I mean? Like I got a lot going on. So the next thing you know,

these two ladies come out of the background and like, hey, you messed up. You know, how you doing? You know, I'm like, hey, I'm okay. Like y'all wanted me to tell the truth. Like I'm telling the truth. You know what I mean? But I'm okay.

I mean, I'm not okay. But like, I'm not going to freak out and like start doing stuff. And they're like, okay. You know, and so we went in the back and then we started talking, you know? And so then I get a cognitive therapist, vestibular therapist, psychologist, go to med.

I mean, just this whole regimen. I ended up on a three month, not inpatient because I'm going at home at night, but my whole days, man, are filled with all of this rehab. And it's brutal, man. Total ass whipping. I'd go fall asleep in the truck, you know, in the parking lot before I'd head home just to get sleep.

But I still, man, the part of me thinks I'm so wrong for doing what I'm doing. Because I'm like, coming from where I came from, unit-wise, everything is really in-house. But I'm gonna survive. That's the decision, the choice that I make. And if that's at odds of where I come from and the people who I come from, well, I don't fucking care

because I have a new loyalty chain now. Now my family actually does come first. Now my family actually is my team for the first time ever. So my job is to be able to support my team, which I was in a deficit. So I had a lot of work to do. You know, so there was a lot of guys, even at the time, cause I was very vocal about what I was going through.

Cause that's how I survive. You know what I mean? You talk about it. And 50% of the guys were all about it. You know what I mean? Cause a lot of them were having the same kind of struggles. You know what I mean? Even if they didn't say it overtly, then we talked about it, you know what I mean? Cause a lot of them were having the same kind of struggles. You know what I mean? Even if they didn't say it overtly, then we talked about it in closed session.

You know, it made them feel better knowing like, yeah bro, there's a lot of guys suffering, you know? So 50% of them, I'm just using rough numbers, thought it was cool. And then the other 50% would be like, yeah, he needs to shut the fuck up, you know? But they wouldn't say that to my face. You know what I mean?

Because back to the rules, I'm not a hippie. You know what I mean? Like, we can face. You know what I mean? Because back to the rules, I'm not a hippie. You know what I mean? Like, we can fight. You know what I mean? Like, and they knew that. And so anyway, I had to do, again, back to, I do what I do, because that's what I say I'm going to do.

When did Warrior's Heart come in? Yeah, so the thing about all those therapies and shit, it all works, man. I actually started getting better. It started being able to enjoy my life. Still had a lot of pain. When did your wife start to notice? So she started noticing immediately

because she knows me so well. You know what I mean? She knew I was still struggling a lot and we talked about different struggles, not in detail, but that was just our comms plan that we had together. You know what I mean? That she knew I was working on it. I communicated that I was, you know?

And so we started getting better and I started being able to be an actual dad, like taking kids to school and being a football coach and stuff. But then also started working. I wanted to stay in the tactical realm just because I needed to for a while, because I needed to be around that community of people,

you know, and provide a good product. But I knew it wasn't where I wanted to be. I just didn't know where I wanted to be was next. But in that tactical world, and for the cool thing ever, you know, with my brother and I, he got out a few years before I did, and I was out, so we actually started working together, like actually together.

And we had a rough start with this company that we worked for. We should have knew it went bad, just because who was running it, but it's okay. And so anyway, we start working together and we start doing all the tactical stuff and we start doing some kind of, we call them funding guns,

but it's these, with civilians, you know, mixing military stuff, not military tactics or techniques, but basic fundamentals of marksmanship, CQB, that kind of stuff. So it was a different audience. And then different things that I had learned about at that time was about healing. You know, and a big piece of that was is that how do warriors heal, you know, and because

warrior to warrior, you know, is just is relief. Like, so, but it's not healing. The only true healing comes from the community in which the warrior served, right? Because we assume the burden. We went to war and forever changed, right? And so that burden that we share, that we have is supposed to be shared with our community for who we went and fought for, but it's not. Because of the divide, you know, if the community only 1% serves, you know,

it's not a blame game. It's just very big divide. But me and my brother started practicing closing that distance. And we started doing that and this ties into Warrior's Heart big time. Is what we did is that, this guy named Edward Tick and War and the Soul is the name of his book. I got all this information, this TTP basically,

of right, is how the warrior heals as the warrior gets with the trusted agents in the community and tells a story. And it transfers some of that experience onto them. Right, that's the super shortest rough version I can do it. What is the program? So Warrior's Heart is a minimum 42-day inpatient treatment program, primary diagnosis, it's chemical dependency, so alcohol and drugs, with secondary in the alphabet soup.

PTSD, mild traumatic brain injury, moral grief and injury, all the other stuff that goes along with the job description. But it's primary to that. So it's what makes it different. What makes Warrior's Heart different about other different rehabs is because it's the warrior's way. Like I think I can speak for most veterans, like environment matters. Where we heal, like we don't heal in hospitals

unless I'm getting a surgery. If I need a sterile environment, and well, I need to be in a hospital, but if I need to heal mind, body and spirit, and it's not sterile, then a sterile environment is not a productive environment for me. So it was an old Conoco Oil executive retreat. So it's a resort, 543 acre ranch that is the opposite of a hospital selling.

The people that can come to it is with the warrior population. And that's for those that face life and death on a daily basis as a profession. So we have active duty clients, we have veterans, We have law enforcement. We have first responders. Again, anybody that meets that description. You know, I want to jump in and say something, you know, is this is, one thing I love is this is not a nonprofit. Yeah.

You had mentioned that this takes TRICARE. This takes insurance. this takes all kinds of other things, regular payment. Yep. You know, and the other thing that I love is what you just mentioned, but I want to reiterate is this is for everyone. Correct? This is for special ops.

This is for, this is for conventional. This is for first responders, firefighters, law enforcement, everybody, everybody who experiences traumatic events is welcome. Absolutely. And that's why it sounds cliche. It's not, but it's like from 9-11 to a 9-1 a 911 call, you know what I mean, those are our people. When your family's in need, my family's in need, like these are the ones that we call and they come and save us. So now they need save, I don't like using the word save,

they need assistance, you know, who's helping them out? And over 3,000 people have been through this treatment program. Yeah, yep, over 3,000. How many, do you know the success rate? Yeah, and there's always percentages, so I can give some of them. So the success rate, we have a 90% success rate

in completion of the course. Because this is training. It's a training course. You get cleaned up, you get trained up. You need to learn how to be trained, how to live without self-medicating with drug and alcohol, and handle your emotions, and behave appropriately. So it's a training course.

So we have a 90% completion rate on a 42-day course. So the industry standard on a 28-day course is like 50%. So we're already winning, you know what I mean, in that. And the big reason of that, man, is it truly is warriors healing warriors. You don't have to talk about, that's why we kept it this population only, you don't have to talk about mentorship or leadership. You see someone suffering, you go and help them. You see the new guy, you come and help them.

So all that naturally occurs. You know, and so that all happens. Then whenever it comes to, we're probably at about a 60% rate as far as folks that leave and stay sober. But it's normally 20 to 30. Wow. And that's on a, and that's,

but that's included, it always like just thrown in, that's including the guys that's one day sober who may not make it to five, but that's also they're including the guy that's eight years sober. You know what I mean? So it's a big spread in there. So it's kind of the success rate, you know, is,

and some guys relapse a few times before they get it right. You know what I mean? On that team, some of them, it's like any hard military course. Some people come and make it, they were meant for it, make it straight through, they're good to go, happily ever after. Some people get recycled, you know what I mean? Need some retraining, then make it through. Some people just didn't know what they were getting into and they're not ready yet. So that's, if you look at it as a training course, same way as any hard military school,

that's how it is, man. So that camaraderie and that peer network is built immediately. That's the first thing that makes it different than anything else, because they've missed it. They're isolated, they've gone, you know what I mean, they're away from the tribe, man. So they come back and... And so part of the thing is that the first thing that they hear whenever they get out

there to us is, welcome home. So a lot of people are cliche with that, and to some people it is, but for those who know, it means everything. So that's the thing about warrior's heart is where the lost find their way home, is where the broken find their power, and it's where the're broken, find their power, and it's where they're forgotten or remembered

forever. So when they roll into that environment, it's different, man. You know what I mean? It's obviously, we have a lot of what I call, and I don't say this negatively, it's because I'm one of them, of educated consumers. They've tried different rehabs and different heating modalities, treating modalities. So that's why I always say, I'm gonna tell you how great and how awesome

and all this kind of stuff, but always ask an end user, right, your reviews, you know, and all of that. And, yeah, I mean, it's the peer network. And the difference is is that, I mean, we're one person, man. I can't go to this rehab to work on my chemical dependency and this rehab to work on my PTS., and this rehab to work on my PTS. Like, one of them feeds the other.

Do I drink because of all the PTS, or because of all the PTS I drink? Like, chicken or the egg, who gives a shit? So this is a combined at all. So they get, it was totally industry standard. So industry standards, you get one clinician one time a week, one-on-one. Worshires, they get two, two times a week,

one-on-ones and two small case load groups. And that's where the trauma counselor and a licensed chemical dependency counselor, these are licensed professionals, not hitting on any folks that are helping, you know, or peer support, but these are licensed professionals and obviously they have to be badass to hear our kinds of stories. You know what I mean? On the regular every day multiple times a day. So we've got that piece going on man,

because we're healing both of them at the same time because you have to you can't address the trauma without, you know, one or the other. them at the same time, because you have to, you can't address the trauma without, you know, one or the other. And it's on that ranch, man. And we do modalities like, Hey, we're governed by the state licensing of doing different rehab one-on-one stuff, man. But we have a metal shop, a wood shop, an art shop. We have fish and lakes. Um, we have yoga, nature hikes, all the different things.

Cause we have to have an outlet. I don't want to talk about my fucking feelings anymore. You know what I mean? I don't want to, you know, I just need to break, man. Because 42 days, and when we work, man, from 07 in the morning to 20, 30 at night, they are occupied, earning their way. It's not a get along and get by.

If you're not going with the program, you'll be administratively discharged. I mean, it's, but it's our population. Like we understand those kinds of things, you know? Like make me work for it so it's meaningful, so it means something. Hold me accountable or I'm gonna, I can't stop screwing up, you know?

Nobody goes to rehab on an upswing. You know what I'm saying? How do people find it? And the easiest way I think is warriorsheart.com. We'll link it in the description. Yeah. Well, Tom, we're wrapping up and man, thank you.

My pleasure, you're welcome. Thank you. My pleasure. You're welcome. Thank you for coming out and it's just amazing what you're doing. And it's an honor to have you here. And I'm glad we finally met. Yeah, me too, man. Thank you too. And thank you for being an example.

You've impacted a lot of people, man. And uh, you just... Thank you. And continue to keep doing that. I mean, it's... I will. It's incredible. So, it's been my honor. Go to helixsleep.com and take the sleep quiz. I took it and was matched with the Midnight Lux. Helix knows that everyone's unique, so they have several different mattress models to match based on your body type and sleep preferences.

Once you match, your mattress comes right to your front door shipped for free. When you receive your Helix mattress, you'll be hooked. It's so easy to unbox and you won't believe how well you sleep. You'll wake up feeling rested and refreshed. Helix mattresses are fiberglass free and cradle your body for essential support in every sleeping position. They have a 10-year warranty and Helix even has financing options and flexible payment plans. So a great night's sleep is never far away.

Helix is offering up to 30% off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners. Go to helixsleep.com slash SRS, that's helixsleep.com slash SRS. This is their best offer yet, and it's not gonna last long. With Helix, better sleep starts now.