Shawn Ryan Show - #145 Angela Ford - Meet the Army Psychic Who Tracked Spies, Hostages and Fugitives

Episode Date: November 18, 2024

Angela Ford worked as a remote viewer in the CIA’s Project Stargate, a Cold War-era program focused on extrasensory perception (ESP) to gather intelligence on distant locations or individuals. She was among the select few trained in "remote viewing," a form of controlled clairvoyance, and applied this skill to support government intelligence efforts during her time with Stargate. Ford now shares her experiences and teaches remote-viewing techniques at the Monroe Institute, an organization known for exploring consciousness and advanced mind training methods. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://preparewithshawn.com https://hillsdale.edu/srs https://trueclassic.com/srs https://blackbuffalo.com https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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matches, then sit back and let your matches start the chat. Download Bumble and try it for yourself. Angela Ford, welcome to the show. Thank you. I'm glad to be here and thank you for the opportunity. Well, thank you for being here and I am very humbled to be here with you right now. And so you first kind of popped up on my radar when I interviewed Joe McMonigle. He had brought you up in the interview and I asked Joe to connect us if he would connect us and he said he would be happy to. And then I interviewed another

one of your former colleagues. Actually sounds like both of them are still colleagues to this day, but Edwin May, another fascinating guy man, everybody in this space has just been so nice to talk to. And I love the subject matter. So I'm very happy you're here. I'm happy to be here, thank you. Thank you for coming. So everybody starts off with a introduction here.

And so Angela Ford, you're a remote viewer, 079. You have worked for 32 years in the intelligence community. You are a member of the US Army's remote viewing at Fort Meade, Maryland from 1986 to 1985. 1995. Excuse me, 1995. You are currently a teacher at the Monroe Institute and participate in occasional projects

with Dr. Ed May at the Laboratories of Fundamental Research, LFR. You're one of the few female remote viewers in the Stargate program used to use automatic writing. Discovery Channel aired a reenactment of a case that you solved for the U.S. Customs in 1989. You were given special acknowledgement in former Secretary of Defense William Cohen's book, Murder in the Senate. You have been written about in Annie Jacobson's book, Phenomena, the Secret History of the U.S. Government's Investigations into Extrasensory Perception in Psychokinesis.

Do you know Annie? Yes. I just interviewed her too. Yeah. And another, another, another interview I loved, and I just really happy I connected with her as well. So we've got a couple things to knock out before we get in the weeds. I have a subscription network on Patreon and they are our top

supporters. Many of them have been with me since the very beginning and I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for them and neither would we be having this conversation. So one of the things that I offer them is the opportunity to ask each guest a question and so I thought this was a good question because a lot of people kind of categorize spirituality with remote viewing and ESP type stuff. So this is from Paul. Have you known any remote viewers

who have claimed negative spiritual experiences in the process of their remote viewing? No. No. No, because people that I know were trained in remote viewing. And, okay, remote viewing is nothing more than ESP. It's when somebody remote views to gather intelligence,

it's nothing more than what a psychic does. The information is out there. When somebody receives psychic information, it's mental. So the information goes to the brain and then it goes onto the paper, whether you're doing coordinate remote viewing, extended remote viewing, whether you're using tarot cards, whether you're using a crystal ball.

That's the manifestation of the information. So remote viewing is nothing more than ESP. It's a nice term that the scientists used. It's a nice term to use if you're trying to get money from Congress instead of saying psychic. And remote, what makes remote viewing remote viewing is the methodology, meaning that the remote viewer, the psychic and the people involved in the remote viewing process

are blind to the target. That is what makes remote viewing is the methodology. But if you ask a psychic, we're gonna do a remote viewing session, they're gonna go into session and they're gonna do whatever they need to do to gather the information. Okay.

And you can't tell. You can't tell anyone. You can't tell a psychic, oh, well, you can't do that. You have to do this. Although in the Stargate program, they did have the coordinate remote viewing methodology because it was a manual, it was written by, it was by Stanford Research Institute, made the manual. It was nice to have, to kind of show Congress

that it's more technical. It took away from the spirituality. But the army took it as, military likes to train. So when the army people saw this manual of coordinate remote viewing, then they kind of made it their Bible and this is remote viewing. But actually when somebody remote views,

they're just being a psychic. I mean, you can see it, you could feel it, you can hear it, whatever happens in a session, you don't know. Okay, okay, that makes sense. Now, I've had other people who claim that they're psychic, that if they've had negative experiences. And I've had negative experiences. And I remembered whenever I had start training as a psychic,

I was very young, a woman told me, she said, Angela, you're going to see positive, but you're gonna see negative. You're gonna feel negativity because this is what earth is made of, there's positive and there's negativity. But I'm just not, sometimes it's just there, but it goes, it's energy, it just kind of goes away.

I've been doing it for so long and so much has happened to me, it just doesn't matter. But I do, you know, people call me up and they get a little nervous. They go, you know, I had this dream and what does this mean? Or they may feel like, I just had a guy email me the other day.

I think he got, he started seeing, I think he was seeing worms in his third eye area. And I said, your third eye, you know, it's a chakra center that's opening up, but I don't know. You know, I don't know. I just feel there is negativity. And I know a lot of psychics that don't want to read people

if they're negative. Well, good luck to that. I mean, we're not always going to be 100% positive all the time. And then I know people, healers and psychics, they bring a client in and they'll go through a whole exercise of you know talking, bringing the light, you know blessing themselves, we only want good. It's just I don't know just I don't do all of that but I guess

I don't know I guess it's just negative and positive. Well, changing the subject just a little bit, when I walked up here to start the interview, my editor was sitting here and you guys were having a conversation and it sounds like you had somehow tapped into his health. Can you explain what was going on there? It sounds like you had somehow tapped into his health. Can you explain what was going on there? He asked, he said, can you,

he asked me if I could give him a reading sometime. And I said, well, I said, I can do it now. So I just needed his, I needed to concentrate on something. So I asked him for his birthday and he gave me his birthday. And from his birthday, I was able to tune in. And I felt like he, actually, I felt like he was going through a huge year of change, which he,

whenever he told me what was going on. He is. Yeah, huge change. He just moved. Yeah, yeah. And I said, and it's the kind of aspect where people want change, but it could be more change than what you want.

In other words, by the time this comes around in your life, you welcome change, but sometimes you get change that you don't want. And I said, you can even lose friends. Well, that made sense to him. And then I don't know why, I just, I don't know why, I just, I said, do you have a delicate, I just told him he had a delicate system,

and he did say, I said, you have to eat light foods. Interesting, interesting. So does that just come to you? Yeah. How does it come? In many ways, just many, many ways. Just focusing. Well, just I need a focus.

I really do need a focus. And I knew I didn't have... The birthday, his birthday kind of helped. I did some basic numerology. And just, and then it's just that focus. And then it just kind of opens up the door, and then I can go from that. Interesting. It just opens up the door.

Could you describe the chakras? Well, I guess there's these points on your body, like your hands. I think there's one in the stomach area. It's called the solar plex. And then you have the Kundalini, which is your spine. It comes up like a snake. And then you have the third eye. And you have your feet.

And a lot of times when people become very sensitive or psychic, these points, they kind of, they open up. It's sort of like we have an aura. And so it's sort of like as you become more aware or as you become more psychic, you're opening yourself up more to these energies. And so you become more sensitive. And it's a process, it's a process.

Interesting, so you become more in tune with the environment. You become more in tune, become more in tuned. Wow. And it's a process. I think it took me about nine months to go through a process. Wow, I have one more question before we get into the life story.

So not long ago, me and my wife went out to dinner with a couple that's very good friends with us. And we talk about things like this and UFOs and stuff like that a lot. And my friend's wife Was talking about She was saying that she has dreams. I believe it was dreams But she felt like

somebody else was putting those visuals or messaging into her head. And so she would vocally say, hey, you're not welcome here. And I've seen some articles as of late that kind of talks a little bit about, I don't know if mind control is the right word, but kind of thought control.

Is that a thing? Yeah, a lot of people get, it's sort of like whenever you go to a haunted house and you see a spirit, it's the same thing. It's not like she, I think what she needs to do is just recognize and just say, you know, I recognize what you're doing here. And you know, and if you can recognize what's going on,

and she could say something like, look, I recognize what's going on here and why do you want me to have this information, but I'd rather not have it. It's just, it's almost like if you see a ghost or it's like, hi, I know you're here. It's recognize it. And once you recognize it,

it's like they want to be recognized and then it just goes away. I think what she was thinking was going on is that basically what I'm getting at is would it be possible for a remote viewer to inject a thought or a certain feeling or maybe information into another individual's mental status? Probably, yeah.

Have you heard of that before? Yeah, because that's what they, yeah, because if somebody, I think at one point they were, it was always thought that like if somebody was kidnapped, if they would, they were trying to tell people if they were kidnapped, start concentrating on, if I think like if a remote viewer could find the person, if the person would start, suppose you were kidnapped

and somebody wanted me to find you. You could start saying, you know, explaining where you are or what you're going through, and I could tap into that. No kidding. Oh yeah, oh yeah, that's what they want, yeah. It's telepathy. That's called telepathy Have you done that? Yeah, well I have done that with yeah with my sister. I did it a couple of times

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When I was working for the government, I was working for Army Intelligence, I had heard that there was one of my college professors that just started working at the Pentagon. And I guess I kept meaning to call him to get in touch with him. Well, one evening he was out and he saw my sister. And so they talked and my sister came home

and I was sleeping. So I went to work the next day and I called the guy and he said, oh, he said, I bet your sister told you to call me. And I said, no, I haven't talked to my sister. And he felt like, oh, wow. He said, you must be psychic because I just saw your sister less than 24 hours ago,

but somehow I must have known to call him even though she didn't tell me that she saw him. But another instance I had with my sister was, we were living in an apartment and I had to, she had a, I don't know what she did. She would keep forgetting a certain house key or something. So every time she would come in, I'd have to, and I can remember always just kind of sending her a message, don't forget the key, don't forget the key. And I almost, at one point, I could almost see her

going back for the key and reaching for it. So I laid her on that day when I saw her, I said, did you almost forget the key? And I knew what time she had left. I knew what time she left. Well, I kept saying, don't forget the key. Don't forget the key. Either she was gonna lock herself out

or I was gonna get there and I would have to leave her in. And I can remember saying, projecting, don't forget the key. And then I kind of saw this image and I could see her going back for the key, and I recorded the time. So when I saw her later, I said, did you almost, what time did you leave the apartment?

And she told me, and I said, did you almost forget the key? She said, yeah, I, what time did you leave the apartment? And she told me, and I said, did you almost forget the keys? She said, yeah, I had to come back for it. Wow, wow. That stuff is just fascinating to me. Absolutely fascinating. Well, before we get into your life story, everybody gets a gift here.

Oh, thank you, thank you. So this is nice. Oh, goodies, goodies. Those are Vigilance Elite Gummy Bears. Oh, yeah, my husband will keep these away from my husband. He has these all throughout the house, but no, thank you. You're welcome, you're welcome. But, alright, Angela, so we're going to start. Okay. Right at the very beginning.

Where did you grow up? I grew up in a small coal mining town in Western Pennsylvania. I'm from Indiana County, Pennsylvania. It was where Jimmy Stewart was born and raised. Oh, cool. Cool. I'm Italian. I came from a large Italian family.

Both sides of my family are Italian. And when I was very young, when I was very young, I had a lot of out-of-body experiences. What age did that start? Oh, three, four, five, six. I can remember, I can remember when this,

I guess they say at certain points of your life, I guess you get the spark of life or there's a spark. I can remember when I began to walk, I can remember the spark going in me. And I knew it, I recognized I was a baby, but I knew a spark went in me. Wow. I was very aware of that.

And I had a twin sister who had out of body experiences. Now I told my mother, I would get up and I would tell my mother what my... Oh, and then I started to have dreams. I started to have dreams. And there were a lot of dreams. It was about a lot of things about world events when I was six years old.

And I would tell my mother and my mother would listen to me. And there are a lot of things about China, a lot of things about China, a lot of things about Russia. I was only six years old and I would get up and talk about these Jews, but my mother would listen to me and she never discouraged me. And as a child growing up,

now once I got into school and when I became busy, it didn't happen all the time. Things sort of faded away. But I was always curious in the subject because I knew I was, you know, I was flying out, you know, I was leaving my body. I could see my body. I'm flying out the door. I'm walking through walls, I'm in the trees.

So I was always interested in the subject, but I didn't... So, you know, I'd go to maybe Psychic sometime, but my mother was very interested in the subject. She had- Really? Oh, my mother had all kinds of paraphernalia laying around the house from Edgar Cayce

to she had a lot of Edgar Cayce material. She bought a whole encyclopedia of the occult. We still have the encyclopedia. My mother was into it. She would listen to Jeanne Dixon and What Jury Gala on TV and she liked country western music, and she believed in reincarnation. So as a teenager growing up, you know, she'd talk about reincarnation and turn up that country music, and I thought she was weird, and I just wanted... I was so embarrassed when friends would come over. And one time the car radio broke and I was so happy because then we didn't have to listen to the country music. And I was walking down the road

because it's a coal mining town, the road, not the street, then not on a sidewalk, but the road. And she had a transistor and I was walking with my friends and she held that transistor out the window as she was driving. And she said, listen, Angela, and it was like a new country, Western song, a singer was singing a new song. You know, but that's the way she was now. So I went to college at Indiana University of Pennsylvania. And the year that I graduated, my sister,

I had a political science degree and my sister had received a criminology degree. And my sister said we should be state police. She loved criminology and the investigative work. So we decided that we were going to be, we would, but we were going to be applied to the police, to the Pennsylvania Police Academy. Well, it wasn't accepting new applicants that year. So we had graduated from college, we could, the academy wasn't taking new applicants. wasn't taking new applicants. I think I was just sort of, I was a waitress

and I had nothing. So there was a man who taught a night class at the university that I attended. He was a chemistry teacher, but he was psychic and he taught an ESP class at night. So I took his ESP class. And he was pretty, he was good. Like he'd make everybody write a number down

and hide it from him. And then he'd go around and tell you what the number was. And I liked him a lot. But what happened was I was coming down, the police academy wasn't gonna open up. So my sister and I applied to the FBI and we were coming down to Washington DC to work for the FBI.

So I got a call one day where I had to go to a factory to work at night because I had to, and I had to quit the class because I had to make money to come down to DC, but I always remembered him and I remembered the class. So I came down to DC and then I worked for the FBI. There's no way we could have become agents or eyesight, couldn't have done it.

And it was a very low paying job. But I did meet, there was a woman I knew who was dating an Indian, an American Indian. And my sister and I were invited one night, I guess it was a powwow they called it. And there was some tribal leader, there was some tribal leader from the West. And he told my sister and I, he said,

he said, did you have dreams when you were young? And I said, yes. And he said, when you're in your 80s, whatever you dreamt about, it will be true. Do you remember what you dreamt about? Yeah. What did you dreamt about? Yeah. What did you dream about? That actually that we would not have the...

That the enemy would be China. I know what's going on with Russia and the Ukraine, but that will be resolved. That will be resolved. And we will be friends with Russia again. We will be. We will be resolved. That will be resolved, and we will be friends with Russia again. We will be. We will be. That was, I remembered that.

And it was China. It was China was the enemy. Wow. That's what I believe. Yeah, and you know, this was during the Cold War, whenever I had these dreams. Remember Khrushchev and it was unbelievable. I would say, oh no, we'll be friends with Russia.

We're gonna fight against the Chinese. Well, at that time in the early 1960s or late 1950s, who would have thought of that? Yeah, yeah. Can we rewind to some of your, I mean, you had mentioned out-of-body experiences at age three, four years old. Well, actually four, five, maybe a little,

it was before I went to school. Okay. It was before I entered school at six. What, can you describe, do you remember your first out of body experience? No, they all seem the same. You just go out of body. What did the dream entail? Oh, it's not a dream. It's not a dream.

You physically leave your body, you come out. And you're here in like a aura or a spiritual form and your physical body's laying down, you can see your physical body laying down. So you're fully conscious. Oh yeah, fully conscious. Are you able to make decisions? Oh sure, yeah.

It's like I wanna go, yeah. It's like I want to go, yeah. I could direct myself where to go. Wow. So where would you? I would go outside on the tree. I can remember one time I really wanted to go, I went to the sun, I think, one time, because I really wanted to get out of the earth. I wanted to go further.

But I, now, when I went out of body, I had no control. And I still don't, I have no control. When I go out of body, how I, I don't know how to go out of body. It just happens. But when I go out of body, I can direct it a little bit. I do, I can direct it. So you can't control when you, you can't control when the

out of body experience is going to happen, but you can, you are fully aware, capable of making your own decisions where you want to go, if you want to go right, left, up, down, you're, you're capable. Are you, are you, do you have the ability to come back in body? Oh, sure, yeah. So what did you think at age four, five or six? Oh, I loved it. Did you find it odd? I didn't find it odd, but I knew as I got older, I knew I could not talk about it.

Now don't ask me how I knew that. I have no idea. I knew that I could not talk about it to people. Who's the first person you talked to? My mother, my mother. What did your mother say? Oh, that's good. It's just what it was.

Did she believe you? Oh yeah, oh my mother was, yeah. My mother was weird. Oh yeah, no, she encouraged it. She encouraged it. Did your mother have out of body experiences? Let me tell you what happens later. What we find out about my mother is it's unreal. She had psychic, now my mother was psychic,

but we never knew it. And my mother would walk around the house and just make prediction. My mother would talk like, oh, you know, this Pope's gonna die. They're gonna get a new Pope and the guy's name's gonna be John. And my mother would talk like this.

She remembered, she talked about, my mother would make predictions and we didn't know what she was, we never knew she would, we didn't call it psychic. We just thought she was, you know, a little bit. We called her lofty, she was lofty. She just didn't seem to be, she was lofty. And she would, couple of times, you know,

she'd be around the house making dinner or talking and she'd say, oh, you know, there's gonna be a war over in Israel. It'll be short lived though though. And there was. Well, was it there a 48-hour war or something? So that's how she would talk all the time. But we never paid any attention to her. And then she'd talk about reincarnation,

go into reincarnation. So we never really paid much attention to her. Now, what happened was I was down here working. I got a job over with, once I left the FBI, I was able to get a job. This would have been around 1980. I came down to DC in probably 1978 or 79. I left the FBI because a woman I was working with

left the FBI and she went to join her husband who was working with Army Intelligence. And she went to join her husband who was working with Army Intelligence. And she called me up and she said Army Intelligence is having internships, they're looking for people with political science degrees. You should apply. You'll be making more money than what you're making now. Plus it's, you know, you get more as you, as the years go by, you make more money.

So I applied. When I started to work for Army Intelligence, I was on a two or three year intern program. And I learned all about intelligence, how you collect it, how you disseminate it, how you produce it. I went to the different intelligence agencies to find out who's responsible for what.

So I did this. And then at the end of the internship, they gave me a job. I was a Central American analyst. And at the time it was around the 1982, 83 time period, whenever you had the Sandinistas in Nicaragua and you had Noriega in Panama, and then insurgencies in El Salvador, and Honduras, and then late.

So it was a hotbed, and I would do the current intelligence briefings every Friday for the command staff. Okay. And that's what I was doing. Well, at the time, my mother called me up one day and she said, it was the fall, and she said, I need to take, you know, I want to do something. My friends and I were bored.

My mother always took classes like ceramic classes. And I told her, I said, why don't you take Dr. Bordas's ESP class at the college? It was the class that I had to quit back when I graduated from college in 1976. So she said, I think I will. So her and her two friends started to take the class. And here, what they found out was my mother was very psychic. And they could give my mother an object, like your ring or a bracelet or a watch,

and she could hold the object and she could tell you about the person who owned the object. So now my mother is, now my mother, we recognize that she has these abilities. So my father died during that time. It must have been around 1983, 84. My father died and she mailed me a book and she said, Angela, read. It was a sudden death that was unexpected.

I was still young. I was 29 years old. I was living with my sister. We were heartbroken. So my mother emailed me a book and she said, read this book, it will help you understand your father's death. And I did.

And it was a book by Ruth Montgomery. She was a popular writer at the time. And it was called A World Beyond. So that book helped me get over my grief. But after I read the book, things started. I felt like I was getting very psychic. I started to do channeling or automatic writing. My sister was taking an astrology class at the time. And the astrologer knew that my sister and I were doing the automatic

writing. So she kind of recommended us to go study with a man by the name of Fred Mansbridge in Alexandria. He owned the Mansbridge Institute. So we started studying from him. And I was working as a Central American analyst. And at that time, somebody might, the astrologist teacher told my sister about this psychic program that the government had where I worked. I heard it from my sister's astrologers.

I didn't hear it from. So I started to make inquiries where I worked. And yeah, I had heard there was this psychic program that the army, that they had army remote viewers. I didn't even know where it was located. So I did meet with the general and I did want to go to the program. Well, it was General Stubblebine where it was located. So I did meet with the general and I did wanna go to the program. Well, it was General Stubblebine and he was retiring.

This was 1984. And he was retiring. So I thought, well, I guess I lost my chance to be brought into the psychic program. And what had happened was he was getting ready to retire. So this army psychic sitting up at Fort Meade, they were sitting around ready to get orders to go someplace else and work, even the civilians up there.

You know how the government works. We're going to close this program, but you're going to go here and work, and you're gonna go there and work. So they assumed that the program would be shut down because General Stubblebine was retiring, and he was the Army. The remote viewers were being paid by the Army.

They were under the Army. Well, in the meantime, in 1984, Dr. Jack Verona, who worked at Defense Intelligence Agency, who was funding research into parapsychology at Stanford Research Institute and other places like Princeton and Duke University, he went to Congress and said, don't shut down the program, just transfer the program from Army to the Defense Intelligence Agency, which took about a year. And then in 1986, I was brought into the program after it was transferred.

Okay, let's rewind just a little bit. What is automatic writing? It's just a way of receiving information. Like if you ask a question, it's just a matter, it's just a way you can receive information. Okay. It's like an automatic, it's like an on atomic, you just get the information through writing.

So you think about something, and you just start writing. No, somebody asked a question, and then I just sort of write out the answer. How does that come to you? Well, at first it came slow, came very slow, because the process was very slow, but now it comes a little faster, because I've been doing it for so long.

I mean, I guess what I'm asking is, can you describe what you're experiencing? If we were gonna do the exercise right now, and you had a pen and you were writing, and I just asked, what's a question somebody would ask? Am I going to get a raise? You know, am I going to make more money? Okay.

How does that answer come to you? Can you please describe that experience? It just comes. It's like a door. It's like just a door opens. It's, you know, you put... Is it just a thought that is in... Yeah, it comes fast.

It comes fast. It can come very fast. It just, it comes fast. How do you clear your head so there's only that one thought? Or do you? I try to, I try to. I try to be disciplined, but sometimes you don't, but sometimes it just comes. I don't know if you've ever watched psychics on TV, like, was there a man, John

Edward, or the Long Island Psychic? If you've ever watched psychics on TV, like was there a man, John Edward or the Long Island Psychic, if you've ever watched them, they talk fast, the information comes fast, that's how fast it comes. In fact, I went to see John Edward in Baltimore and he came out and he said, I'm going gonna start giving information. And if it pertains to you, raise your hand. And then he would walk over to the person

and he would say, do not ask me any questions until I am finished talking. And he said that it's like these, the information just comes so fast. Is it a thought in your head that you write down It's like the information just comes so fast. Is it a thought in your head that you write down or is it your hand that just writes it? No, the hand is the manifestation. Again, the information is out in the ethers.

You're asking me a question. I have to go out there. My mind has to go out into the ethers or it has to go out into this energy field. So the information is here, so it manifests on the paper. That's why a lot of people can give a reading without anything. Like I've known psychics, they'll just stand,

they don't use anything. I think I'm a little, I guess that I like to rely on my paper and pen. When did you realize, when did you and your sister have a conversation about what was going on, if it was happening to both of you? Oh, when she came home one day and I was doing the automatic writing

and I showed her what I was doing and she said, oh, I wanna do that, so she did it too. Is that when she found out? Wow, and you guys are twins. Yeah, yeah. And Joe McMonigal has a twin. Is there any? Oh, sure, oh, sure.

Is there a lot of? My mother was psychic. I had heard years later that my father's father, before he came to the United States, he traveled all through Europe with a tray, and on the tray was a bird and tarot cards, and he would make money by giving somebody a reading. The bird would pick up the tarot card,

and my grandfather would give a psychic reading. So I have it from my father's side and my mother's side. So it has to be a gene. They, it has to be a gene. Do you think, I talked with Joe about this, I've talked to, I think I talked to Ed about this, maybe John Alexander as well. Did all humans have this at one point in time?

Do you, what is, I mean? Oh, I think it's always been there, but we just, it's always, I mean, why are we born? Intuitively, we know when to come out of the womb. It's like, psychically, we know when to be born. I believe psychically we know when to leave, too. Really? Mm-hmm.

I watched my mother-in-law and a brother. I feel like, yeah, I feel like they knew when to go. They knew. It's like they took themselves out. Wow. When? I think we all have it. It's just not accepted in our culture.

It's just not accepted in our culture. Other cultures have an easier time with it. And if this is against somebody's belief system, you're not gonna do anything to change their mind. Yeah, I've figured that out. There's, um... I've heard a lot of people say it's demonic. I've heard all kinds of things.

Um... See, now... Why do you think we've lost it, though? If you believe everybody... all kinds of things. See, now- Why do you think we've lost it though? If you believe everybody had this gift at one point in time. I think the church, I think, okay, you know, I watch a lot of the, I think,

I think a lot of it had to do with the church back a long, long time ago, whenever the Christianity came about in Constantinople, and he wasn't only an emperor or a ruler, he was also wanted to be a religious leader. So I think he took a lot of things out of the, a lot of these things out of the church. That's why you have groups like the Masons

and you have these secret societies. I mean, I think these people have know this stuff, but it's just not talked about. Time is our most precious commodity. And I've heard from so many of my listeners who have asked for my advice about how they can spend it wisely to improve themselves and the people around them. That's why I'm excited that Hillsdale College is offering more than 40 free online courses

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Go to prepare with Sean dot com right now so you can join the ranks of the elite Americans who are ready for what's coming. so you can join the ranks of the elite Americans who are ready for what's coming. I mean, what do they say? We only use 10% of our brain. I mean, do you think that through advancements in technology that we are losing brain sensory? I hope not, but everybody's afraid of AI. I don't know, we're just gonna have to think a new way. There's a book out called Human Design, and the guy that wrote it said that even children,

the next generations, as they come after us, their brains will be different. They will be more, I guess our computer systems are changing or things are changing. So when these new people come, somehow they're gonna be geared up to understand maybe things that we couldn't. So I guess there's an evolution. And in that evolution, we're losing, we're losing psychic abilities.

Yeah. And we shouldn't, we should be getting, we should be gaining more psychic abilities. How would we gain more? I think just being aware of having more awareness, being more in tune and understanding that, I don't understand people, I don't know. I just think being psychic really is just being aware. If you could just go into a room and just be aware

of what's in that room, who's in that room, how is that person feeling? What's, you know, read the room, read the people, but people don't do that, they just go in and talk. Yeah, yeah. So it sounds like you're kind of saying just being in the moment, completely aware of your surroundings and paying attention, just paying attention to

to your thoughts, to what's happening, to maybe, maybe coincidences. Yeah, nothing is a coincidence. It does seem that way. Nothing is a coincidence. When did you come to that conclusion? Just because everything, I mean, how I got to Army Intelligence,

I never thought I would work in DC. I would have been happy in Pennsylvania. I had relatives that were involved in local politics. I was working on political campaigns. I was happy. When I came to DC, it wasn't easy. Working for the FBI was difficult. It was the years after Hoover had died

and they were trying to make a transition into hiring minorities and working with minorities. So, and then I went to Army Intelligence and they were, I think they had a problem because I was a female civilian. intelligence and they were, I think they had a problem because I was a female civilian and you need the civilian workforce in a military because they're the, they stay. So it wasn't easy, I mean, it really wasn't easy,

but I, you know, I had nothing else to go back to. Even when I would try to go back to Pennsylvania, I just couldn't find anything to do anything. How did you get selected for the remote viewing program? Well, what happened was is I had found out through my sister's astrologer that they... I had found out that Army Intelligence, where I was working, had these psychics,

remote viewers. I didn't know it. So I asked to meet General Stubblebine to see if I really wanted to go to the job. But then I got in trouble with my command. I guess because I skipped my chain of command, my immediate chain of command got very upset with me. And then General Stubblebine was retiring. So I thought that, well, I wouldn't be able to go. But then he retired in 1984, and everybody thought that the program, that the psychics, the remote viewing program would go away, but Dr. Verona picked it up in 1985 and transferred everything to Defense Intelligence Agency.

In January, 1986, I got approached by the people, by the people at Fort Meade, to send someone down to interview me for the job, and it took six months to get from Army Intelligence to the Defense Intelligence Agency to work as a remote viewer. They interviewed me, I did personality tests, and my clearances had to be sent from Army to DIA.

What was the interview like? Just a personality test. Just general questions, but I think General Stubblebine told them to hire me. So as far as the interview, I figured I was going because it was the type of program that you couldn't apply for. It was a special access program. You couldn't apply for. It was a special access program. You couldn't apply for it.

They took people. If you met somebody and you thought they were, could fit in the unit, that's how they were brought in. So I'm sure if a general called some, you know, like the commander up at Fort Meade, who was the head of the remote viewers, and said to bring me on, I'm sure they would have listened to him

because he was a general. Okay. At what point did they... did they ask why you thought... why they thought you would be... excuse me, did they ask why you thought you would be a good addition to the program? No.

They just gave me this personality... they kept giving me personality tests and they kept asking me all these questions. But the personality test, I don't know, you know, I don't know why they, I think they took me because the general said they'd take me because I ended up being, on the test, I ended up being like a judging person.

And they're saying that perceptive people make better remote viewers. So I think it was just an exercise to just, well, we interviewed her and she seems okay and we'll bring her in. But actually when I got there, they really didn't want me there because of my automatic writing.

They said it was a bad habit. Really? Oh yeah. And I got in trouble with my bosses by going to the general. So they gave me a hard time and I was very uncomfortable for a long time and I was in trouble.

So that made me very uncomfortable. So when I went, so from 1984 to July of 1986, before I went to the program, I, you know, I was still working as a Central American analyst. Now, when I went to Fort Meade, my very first day of work,

I was met by the operations officer. And I said, hi, I'm Angela Ford. It was the first time I met him. And he said, I know who you are. And he said, and I've heard about you. And he said, you have a bad habit. He said, what you're gonna, he says, we're gonna teach you the right way to be psychic. Well, at that point, I wasn't going to argue with him because

I knew what it was like to be in trouble by going over the chain of command. So whatever, I didn't want to be in trouble again. He says, okay, whatever, okay, it's a bad habit. Show, you know. Okay, it's a bad habit. What do you want me to do, you know? So what happened was these military people, they were all learning this coordinate remote viewing. Now they put me with a trainer.

They put me with this man, his name was Gene. And I don't think, and Gene was a civilian and he worked in Germany. He used to be in the military and then he worked as a civilian and he worked in Germany. And you know, if you're a civilian and you work overseas, you're only allowed to work so many years, five years. So five years were up and Gene needed a job.

So he called the commander of the remote viewers and he said, hey, I need a job. And the commander said, well, come on out, come on down here. I'll get you a job. They made him a trainer. So I don't think this guy, he didn't have much experience with psychics or, you know, he just needed a job because he needed a job.

So they put me with him because he needed somebody to train because all the military people were doing training under another trainer. So they put me with this train, the trainer Gene, because he needed somebody to train. Well, when Gene found out I was doing automatic writing and the people didn't like it, then he was giving me a hard time.

You know, he goes, you can't do it. We're going to teach you the right way. So I said, okay, so what are we going to do here? Now, what they did was they called it extended remote viewing. And it was nothing more than you sort of visualize. You, they put a picture in an envelope and you sort of go down into like a meditative state,

self hypnotic state and you get visuals and then you write down what you see. So that's what I did. That's what I did. And they called it extendedended Remote Viewing. And while I was waiting for my clearances to be passed from Army Intelligence to DIA to go work as a psychic, I picked up this book.

It was called The Silva Mind Control by Dr. Silva. And in it, he taught, it was very close to the Ext remote viewing. He taught about how you can go down and visualize. Like if I want to pick up information on you, I would go down and I would visualize, I would visualize you. No, what I would do is I would turn on the TV.

Okay, okay, okay, now I'm gonna watch Sean. So in my mind, I turn on a TV and then I see you. And then I pick up information about you. And then when I'm done, I turn the TV off and then I come back and I say, this is what I picked up on you. That's what, or you can do it with pictures. And so I read this silver mind control and then what

So when I went to work for the unit they were calling it extended remote viewing and it was the same thing that I read in the book So I would in my mind whenever I was working the training targets I just turn on the TV and describe the picture and come out and do it. Wow. So that's how I was doing. But no, I wasn't going to argue with them. They did not want me to do my automatic writing.

And being in trouble before, oh my goodness. So I did that. Now, about a year and a half after I was with the program, my trainer left, the commander left, the one woman left, everybody left, and they brought new people in. And they brought in one training officer, and he said he didn't care what people did because he wasn't wild about the coordinate remote viewing. And he used to be a remote viewer. He didn't care about methodology.

The thing with the military was they were proud because of their methodology. They had this coordinate remote viewing, they had extended remote viewing and this is the way that's properly done. This is how to be a psychic. This is the way you do it. Well, you know, I come more from a spiritual,

more from a spiritual whatever background. And I would have thought that if you're going to go work as a psychic for the government, you would have thought at some point, some of them would have picked up a book or went to a metaphysical church or done something to look into the subject. But they took it as very matter of fact. So what happened was about a year and a half, things started to change, management started to change.

And I told my boss, Fern, I said, I want to do automatic writing. He said, well, you can do it. So he would say, he said, you can go home and do it. He'd give me tasking, and then I'd go home and do it. But one day I walked in, and I, Fern and I, I walked, I don't know what happened.

I told Fern, he allowed people to do different methodologies. So I told him, I said, well then come over and work with me cause I wanna show you what I can do. And he did. And he put a target in the envelope. And it happened to be Terry Anderson, who was a hostage held by the Hezbollah in Lebanon. And I described Terry.

And I described him. I said that he's in a country that he's located in a country that's not his homeland. I felt that he probably was restricted and that I felt that eventually he would come out and he would be well. So that was, that hit it pretty much so firm. Like we started working opera.

We started working hostages. They had, they had other hostages there. Remember, they had a lot of university professors at Baruch that they had kidnapped. They had a man named Pohiel, and I kept saying his throat hurt and he came out when he caught out he was diagnosed with throat cancer. Now we were doing hostages and we were running the information up to the defense and we were running the information from Fort Meade to Bowling Air Force Base which is what close to an hour so whatever hostages I was working, they were running the information up and the people were taking the information

and giving it to the Israeli embassy. And the Israelis were acting on the information. Now we got a call one Sunday and they said that there was a Marine, Rich Higgins. He was a Marine Colonel and he wentins. He was a Marine colonel, and he went to Lebanon, and he was kidnapped. And they asked if we could find him, and they were very concerned because he was military,

and they were afraid he was going to be killed. So I worked the case, and I knew his movements. I was saying he's moving here. I was picking up things that they could come back and say that, okay, I was more or less matching what the intel messages were coming in, but they did not know where he was. So I looked at, they were giving me images,

pieces of imagery. So I went to a piece of imagery and I said, he's right there. And I pointed to where Higgins was. And of course the military people in the office said, well, there's nothing there. It's all woods. Why would he be there?

But the analysts said it's old imagery. So the hostages, the terrorist, about a month later after I had put Higgins in this location, the hostages left, sometimes they let hostages go. So there was a hostage that was let go by Hispola and it was a German guy, Cordes. So our analyst went over to Rhein-Main in Germany to debrief him.

And our analyst asked, do you know where Higgins is? And the Cordes, the released hostage said, he's right there. He pointed to where I had pointed to. Wow. And the analyst looked at him and said, but there's nothing there but woods. And the Cordes said, no, they built a structure there

to put Higgins in. And that's where he was. Wow. Was that your first kind of... Yeah, that was pretty good. That was... Yeah, I had... I think at one time I had Terry Anderson in the Bacall Valley, and the analyst came back

and said, oh, he would never be in the Bacall Valley. It's not the MO of the terrorist, but he was sighted in the Bacall Valley at one time. I mean, what does that feel like to get a confirmation? It was overwhelming, but see, what happened was, I felt good about everything, but the military, but, you know, they didn't really like me. It was just hard. Why didn't they like you?

Joe had kind of mentioned that, I don't remember his exact phrase, but it kind of sounded like he was saying, you never got a fair shake. First of all, I think they resented the fact that how I got in by a general, which didn't bother me because I worked in the system long enough to know if somebody higher up wants you, they pick you and you go.

And I've seen it. And I've seen they do it with males, males. And I think because I was female, I think because I had the ability before I went in, they could not control that. Interesting. They could not control that. Interesting. They could not control that. So most, the majority of the remote viewers,

they don't have the ability before? No. They just, they, no. The Army felt that you could bring people in and train them. And you can train a person. You can put a picture in an envelope, and you can train a person how You can put a picture in an envelope and you can train a person how to access

and describe that picture. But I could go, I could find people. I could find things. That was just something I could do. It was like, instead of, it was my mind, that was the way my mind worked. I think they resented the fact of how I got in, the fact that, and they knew.

They knew I had this ability. And I can remember when my information started to be, when they were using my information for operational purposes, they were fighting with my boss because they felt that it wasn't, it wasn't scientifically proven. How are you going to scientifically prove it? I don't know.

And that they wanted to, they needed results. I had to prove my results to them before it should be used in an operational mode. Why would I have to prove myself to them? They're not scientists. They were hired to remote view, just like me. But I did, I think because the information, we were working in a fully operational mode. They came down, they couldn't find cadafes.

Remember the cadafi was supposed to have had a chemical plant that nobody could find or they said they knew where it was But they didn't know how the chemicals were getting there every time they would go they could never find the chemicals So they asked me You know, they said what's going on? So I said they were bringing it in I named this vessel and I called it potato and I spelled it like potato. So we wrote a report up and we brought it to the, it was brought to the analyst

and Dr. Verona saw the report sitting on the analyst's desk. And he says, does this mean anything to you? And the analyst said, well, the vessel's not potato, it's batato, it's a B instead of a P, but I spelled it with a P. And so Dr. Verona said, do you think this, how we describe the report or the scenario, he said, do you think this is viable? And he said, yeah, the analyst said, yes.

So they, Dr. Verona went to the commander of DIA, Defense Intelligence Agency, and they called Turkey and they pulled up a submarine to watch that vessel. And it came back as highly probable. So we really, they watched the vessel, the vessel sailed the route that I said it was gonna sail. They said it probably did have the chemicals on board or it was probably the way they were getting in and out.

But it wasn't highly successful or successful. It was highly successful or successful. It was highly probable. Okay. But that was good enough. I mean, so I mean, that was nerve wracking to think that they're going to pull up a submarine based on my information.

Now that really made me nervous. It made my boss nervous because that was a soul, you know, an intelligence. You need several sources of information before you'll go out and look at something. It was sole source. So they had a lot of confidence in you. They did.

Would they have other remote viewers on the same project to see if... Yeah, they would. But the analysts that we were working with, they would ask the... They go, what do your... Why... The other remote viewers could not work as fast as I could.

And they couldn't... I was good at finding things. I was good at describing people. See, I was good at finding things. I was good at describing people. See, I was good at personalities. I was good at finding things. The other remote viewers were just taught, put the picture in the envelope. It's a Soviet structure.

They could be building. It was just, it was a different type of, I was performing in a different way. Were you the only one that had differences from your colleagues? Or were there other unique methods? No, there were two. There was coordinate remote viewing

and extended remote viewing. And then I did my channeling, and Dr. Verona decided to call it WRB, written remote viewing. Interesting. A girl came in after me. I taught her, she liked what I did. She was pretty good and they gave her a hard time. Were you guys all centralized?

In the same place. Yes. Oh yeah. So can you describe what a, what would a daily routine be like at Stargate? Well, we had two buildings. And one building is where we had our desks and where we would do our reports. And then you had a second building where you would go remote view. So we would have schedules, you know, like on, there were remote viewing times.

I think one was like eight o'clock, maybe 11 o'clock, two o'clock. So we would have schedules on when to remote view. And then if we weren't remote viewing, we would come over and just do administrative type things and sit at our desks just do administrative type things. It sit on our desks, we would type reports. You know, it was hard to work. You can't work a psych eight hours a day.

In the other building, in the remote viewing building, what would the setting be like? You would walk into a room, and there would be a couch. And you could sit there if you wanted to and relax. And then there was a hallway. And then there were two rooms. And there was a restroom. And the two rooms would have a chair and a desk and a bed. And then you would go in the back

and it was a huge room with a big table and you could sit there and do, you could remote view. And that room had a lot of, if you needed maps, if you were remote viewing and you needed information, you had maps, if you were remote viewing and you needed information, you had maps, you had books there. Wow, I mean, I just, man, I wanna understand the science behind this so bad.

So when you remote view and you say that it's an energy field that you're tapping into or the ether, or I I mean does that mean that everything has already happened? No, it doesn't. It's easy. It's easy to remote view the past and it's easy to remote to the present because the footprint is there.

Okay. Now, if you're asking me to remote view the future, I can remote view the future, but the future has a tendency to change. The footprint isn't there. So it's harder sometimes to read the future than the past and the present. Okay. Is it... Is it a...

Is it mentally exhausting? Oh my goodness, yes. Yeah. What does it feel like? It... I just couldn't... There were times I just couldn't work. I had done the... I had found a fugitive, a customs agent that went bad.

Charles Jordan. They brought me in on that case. We were having good luck with the hostages and we were doing some other locational work that I was having success with. So there was a TV program, The Ten Most Wanted. It was a ten, and there was a TV program, The 10 Most Wanted. And there was a man named Charles Jordan.

He was on the 10 Most Wanted list. He was a customs agent that went rogue. He took the money from the drugs and he didn't want to be... He went dirty. He was dirty. So customs called in Dr. Verona and said, we're looking for this guy. And you know, in police or military organizations, if you somebody, if they're dirty, that you know, that you really,

they really want that guy bad to think that's, the whole mentality is we got to have him because he, you know, he's just, he's bad. So I went into session with Fern, and all he did is he asked me where was Charles Jordan? And it came out, I said, Lovell, Wyoming. And it came out like that. It just came out.

And he looked at me and he said, he was from Lovell, Massachusetts. No, I said, the guy was from Lovell, Massachusetts. No, I said the guy was in Lowell, Wyoming. And Fern said, well, I was born in Lowell, Massachusetts. Are you sure you mean Wyoming? And I said, yes, because I had the feeling of the West, you know, the Wild West, that whole feeling came over me.

And I said, no, it's Wyoming. So we had some maps there, and we were looking through the United States maps, and we looked at Wyoming. And he said, well, there's a level Wyoming, not Lowell. So I spelled it L-O-W-E-L-L, but it was really L-O-V-E-L-L. And I said, well, that's close enough. And then I wanted to leave. And I think he wanted me to work more

because you know, in the government, you just can't have a report saying, love a Wyoming. So, but I couldn't, I figured that was it. Wow. And we didn't think we had credit for it, but we did. We found out years later that nobody believed me what I said. And then they found him.

And when they did the reenactment in 1995, the custom, we said, oh, it's too bad we didn't get credit for the, you know, for finding the guy. They said, oh no, it was because of my information. They said the man, Charles Jordan, the one that the, he sent his mother a picture of himself to show her that he was healthy and that he was okay.

And when they saw the pictures, they saw the Wyoming license plate. And so they knew I was right. And then they started looking up in Wyoming and a security guard at Yellowstone saw him, but they said, no, it was because of me. It turned the whole search around. And they found him.

Okay, now you ask about automatic writing. It is spirit writing. Have you ever heard of it? No. People say it's your higher self. I feel it's a guide. We all have guides or angels. Okay, so what happened was, is I was writing,

spirit writing, and the spirit kind of identified himself as George. Okay, now I'm gonna tell you the story because you're talking about negative and positive. My sister came home one night from work and I said, hey, I said I'm doing channeling here from a little guy named George. So my sister said, oh, well, I want to do that. So she started writing and she said, well, I got a little guy here named Maury.

She called him Maury. And at one point Maury said, I am a negative spirit. So I said, Louise, I said, stop doing it. I said, because I heard, you know, you can get these negative spirits and then they attach to you. And we want everything to be good. So she said, okay.

So then I think she started writing to another guy. And every once in a while, this little Morrie would pop up and he'd say, hey, I'm here and I am a negative spirit. And I think she started writing to another guy and every once in a while, this little Morrie would pop up and he'd say, hey, I'm here and I am a negative spirit. So we were getting like kind of nervous. You had interaction with him too as well? My sister did.

Just your sister? And every once in a while he would pop up. So I didn't know what to do. So I think, I don't know who I do, so I think, I don't know who I talked to, it could have been somebody at work, because I was getting, and they said, oh, your sister needs psychiatric help.

So I went back to my sister and I said, Louise, do you think you need psychological help? She said, probably. So we kept writing, she said probably. Who doesn't? She said probably, and I said, I don't know about this. I doesn't? She said, probably. And I said, I don't know about this. I don't know about Maury.

So, but we kind of liked him and he was sticking around and he was giving us pretty good information about, he was giving information about my mother's dead relatives who we didn't know. So, he'd give us information and my sister would call my mother and she'd say, oh yeah, yeah, that's right, that's right. And he said that my one cousin was going to have a baby they've been trying to adopt for

years and oh yeah, they're going to get their girl on March 19th, which they did. So he was pretty accurate, but then he would say, oh, and by the way, I am a negative spirit. So I went to see Fred Mansbridge because this astrology woman told my sister, we should go see Fred Mansbridge. So the night before my sister went to see Mansbridge, she was gonna have the first session with him. Maury said, tonight I am leaving you forever. And we said, oh, by that time,

we had him around for about a month and we're like, oh, you don't have to leave, you're okay. And I said, don't tell anybody he's negative because we really liked him. So he said, no, this is it, I'm leaving you forever. So the next night, the next day when my sister went to see Fred Mansbridge, my sister said, I'm channeling through a guide named Maury.

And Fred Mansbridge said, no, no, no, no, you're channeling through a guide named Maurice. Maurice is the positive and Maury is the negative. Address the guide as Maurice. So from that point on, she addressed him as Maurice, and Maury did leave her forever. Wow. Wow. Maury did leave her forever.

So he really wasn't bad. He was good. I mean, we liked him. He was... We liked him, and we were like, oh, you know, you don't have to go and... So what you're saying is, for every positive, there's a negative. There's a negative, that's right. Wow, fascinating stuff.

That's why it doesn't, and I thought, well, there's your answer on your negativity. Man. There's your answer on your negativity. When they bring you in, is it a single remote viewer or do they bring in a team? No, it's a single remote viewer. do they bring in a team? No, it's a single remote viewer.

Single remote viewer. Yeah, you can't work with other remote viewers in the same room because you could be picking up what they're thinking. I was wondering about that. Yeah, you always, yeah, even whenever people work in groups, when you go to these metaphysical churches or they put remote, they put psychics in a group

and then every psychic will say, you could be picking up on um the on what the other psychic said so no it's you always go one at a time interesting interesting angela let's take a let's take a quick break okay and then uh when we come back i i want to talk about i'd like to ask you about just some personal ventures maybe that you have never shared or that you've gone on. Okay. Thank you.

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Join us and become a patron starting at just $5 a month by visiting patreon.com slash Vigilance Elite. That's patreon.com slash vigilance elite. Thank you for listening to the Sean Ryan show. If you haven't already, please take a minute, head over to iTunes and leave the Sean Ryan show review. We read every review that comes through and we really appreciate the support. Thank you. Let's get back to the show. All right, Angela, we're back from the break. And I wanted to

kind of pause on your career for a minute. And I wanted to ask you about, you know, maybe some personal ventures that you've used remote viewing for. And so kind of what I'm, I mean, if I knew how to tap into this, I would, I just have so many questions about the past, about religion, about UFOs, about all kinds of stuff.

And so I'm wondering if you use this for your own curiosity. Oh, yeah, yeah, of course. Oh, of course, yeah, I would read everything I could on it. Well, I mean, so here's an example. I would love to know maybe what some of the things were happening in World War II or the Bible or just big questions.

Well, you mean use your psychic abilities to kind of figure it out. Yes, ma'am. Yeah, sometimes. What are some of them? Sometimes you don't know if you're right though, but you don't have the feedback and so you don't know if you're right or whatever.

So sometimes you have to do, you may be curious about something or think of something and maybe try to figure it out. And then maybe it'll just do some research. Maybe your thinking was right, or maybe you have to look for your feedback to see if what you were feeling was right. Interesting. What are some of the big questions that you've looked into?

I guess what goes on after we leave, after we leave this, I guess, after our body, our physical body, I don't think, I sort of think that we sort of go on in some way. And I do believe that there, I was born and raised Catholic, but I had to let go a lot of that.

I just had to let a lot of that thinking go. I mean, I like to think that we go on in some way. I do believe that there was a man named Jesus that walked the earth. And, but, you know, there were other people too that were here to teach lessons. And we, but biggest thing was what, you know,

what happens after we go on. I'm interested to know, do we come in reincarnation? I've asked, do we come back? What do you believe happens when we die? I just think you're kind of met, I think you're sort of, you go over with, I believe that you go on and that you're reunited with your soul family or with your karma group.

The way I understand it is that we come in, we come into this life with our karma group. We have good karma and bad karma. So the same people that I was with, I just think that somehow we come back and we come back with the same people. Really? I believe in, yeah, I do.

What is a karma group? Well, it's the? I believe in, yeah, I do. What would a, what is a karma group? Well, it's the same, like in other words, the people you know now, you knew before in the past life. Did you ever go somewhere and just felt like, like you knew somebody or that you've been there before? Yes. Yeah, that's, I've known you, yeah, that's, yeah. What do you, what do you think deja vu is?

The remembering of a past life. Do you think it's the remembering of a past life? Yeah, if it happened before, either you were at that place. I felt like I had that with a couple of my animals. Why do you think that? Why do I think what? Why do you think that we travel with a karma group? Because it just makes,

because we have things to work out with them, I guess. Who would be in that karma group? Friends, relatives, friends, people that you meet all through your life. You know, I just, everybody that you know. Everybody that you know. So everybody in your sphere of... That that you know. Everybody that you know. So everybody in your sphere of. You would know.

I think it was explained to me like, you know, you've got one million people will leave this earth and then one million people come down to replace the one million people that left. Do we immediately come back? I don't know. I don't know. I don't think so.

I think you kind of have to wait for your karma group to figure out, you know, if you come back this time, are you going to be my mother or my sister or my father? Why do you think that we come back? What have you experienced that makes you believe that? Probably to get better into whatever errors we have, try to replace them. There's a reason why we come back. Do we need to learn more love?

Do we need to learn more patience? Have you had any experiences that solidify your beliefs? Not really. I mean, I can't, I don't have any scientific evidence. I did have one woman put me through a past life and I don't know if it's true. It was sort of like a hypnotic state where you kind of go and visualize a past life.

And I think I was in Nova Scotia growing wheat. I remember that. I remember that. But I remember also there was a religion there that was very strict. I can remember in whatever under that session, I remembered belonging to an organized religion that was very strict.

And so when I came out of that, I probably figured, well, the Catholic religion that I grew up with probably, that energy was probably coming from that energy from that past life. And so somehow I just, maybe I cleared myself of it in this life. Have you looked into, have you tried to look into religion at all, such as the crucifixion,

you have, do you not want to talk about that? Okay. Do you want to talk about, you had mentioned you had had a UFO experience. Yeah, when I was 13 years old, this was another thing too that had happened to me. We were playing, a bunch of us kids, we were playing baseball. It was a spring day and it was right at that time that the day goes into, it was dusk where the day goes into the darkness. So we had to quit playing baseball.

So we were walking across the baseball field and we heard this shh, shh, shh, shh, shh. And we saw an unidentified object. It was green, light with the ring around it, and it just went over us. So we screamed and we yelled, and people came out and they pointed to the object. So yeah, I did have a UFO experience.

And so that all kind of leads you into thinking about stuff too. It does, It does. If you looked into any more UFO type stuff or extraterrestrial, I spoke with Joe about this and he had, I don't remember the date, but it was, I don't remember the date, but it was... I don't remember the date. It was BC, and they wanted him to remote view Mars. And he had remote viewed some type of a pyramid that...

Are you familiar with this? Well, he had remote viewed Mars. I'm just gonna throw an arbitrary number out. Let's say 10,000 BC. It's probably not 10,000 BC, but I'm just throwing a number out. And he had remote viewed Mars, and had his experience basically, if I remember correctly, there was pyramids,

and it looked like people were evading something and they were using that as some type of a protective shelter. Have you remote viewed anything in space? Yes, but I didn't trust the, no, but I don't trust the information didn't trust the, no, but I don't trust the information because I was remote viewing Mars, but I didn't trust the information or the feedback because I don't think it was known at the time.

What did you, what was the feedback? I can't even remember, but it didn't make sense. Okay. It was at Fort Meade, there was one guy there, he wanted everybody to remote view Mars, but the protocol, it wasn't good, it just wasn't a clean protocol, and I just didn't trust the,

and I don't even remember because I don't trust the session and I don't trust the end. And I don't even remember because I don't trust the session and I don't trust the information. So you don't trust anything unless you get, unless you get the feedback. Well, in remote viewing, yeah. Or the- In remote viewing. But see, a lot of this stuff, like a lot of times I read

or I have my own personal feelings on stuff, but I don't know. But I kind of have my own feeling on things, how things go or whatever. But, you know, in the psychic world, if I'm performing, I would need the feedback, even if I give psychic readings. You just, it's sort of, I kind of have to take what my thoughts are or what my beliefs are. I just take it out of the equation.

Is that hard for you to do? No, because I just, I know what I believe and I just know what I can't. Why do you believe what you believe? Because- With reincarnation. To me, it makes sense. To me, it makes sense. To me, it makes sense. It...

I... I had a lot of questions about... why I felt certain things or why I thought a certain way. And when I started to study about reincarnation or what I, it closed up a lot of answers for me. It just made, I didn't believe in reincarnation at first because I was born Catholic. But once I overcame that hurdle and started saying this could be possible, I even opened up more psychically.

It was like I had to get that belief system. It just was another, it was just made somehow on some level it made sense that it just opened me up more. Interesting, interesting. It didn't scare me. It was like, you know, that makes sense. I guess energy doesn't die. You know, we can come back.

Have you had any visions of past lives? Well, I had the one woman, like I said, with the Nova Scotia, but that was like a hypnotherapist. She kind of put me under, but yeah, I feel like I may have been in England at some point, but I do, I do, I have, I had a dog. I knew I, God, that dog, just, I felt a pat.

I just knew I went through something with that dog. And I have a cat now that I just feel like I'm I just feel that it's just something You feel I guess you can't Just can't It's an intuition. Yeah But there are certain things I like to watch on Certain things that I watch or I'm attracted to or you know, I often well, if I have a strong attraction to something or if I'm obsessed with something,

maybe I'll do some research or whatever, and I'll think, well, maybe there's a connection there, but I don't know what it is for sure. You had mentioned, I mean, you had mentioned, I can't remember if it was on a break or if it was earlier in today's interview, but you had mentioned that you believe we all have angels. Or guides.

Or guides. Where do those come from? I guess from the heavenly realms, from the invisible realms. You know, they call it beyond the veil or the veil. I guess there's just a veil that kind of separates the sea. We see things here, but it's just a thin veil to see into the other realms. And I think that's where they come from.

Do you believe in a higher power like God? Yeah, I think that there is. Yeah, and I think that God gives us a lot of free will. And I think that man makes, you know, I think God gives us a lot of free will. And that mankind maybe, like, just keeps doing what we're doing. What about extraterrestrials? Yeah, like I said, I had the...

The experience. I had the UFO experience. And whenever I moved into Washington, D.C., I lived in an apartment in Washington, D.C. And I had a woman friend who was, she must have been about 20, 30 years older than me. And I needed to move into Washington, D.C. And so she brought me to this apartment complex where she used to live.

And so my sister and I lived in this apartment and it was small. So one day the landlord said that our neighbors were moving out, we could have the larger apartment which we took. Well my girlfriend called me up, my woman friend, and she said, I used to live in that apartment. That's where I used to live. So one time, one night I got a little ring outside and she said, my friends are here. We want to come up and see the apartment.

So she came up and she said, oh, I used to live here. And this, you know, your bedroom was where my, the baby's room was. So she was with a woman named Madeline. And Madeline said, Ruth, do you remember what happened in this apartment? And Ruth said, no. And she said, this was where the first film

of UFOs were shown. And this Madeline worked for an Egyptian researcher named Adamski. And Adamski was, he researched UFOs and artifacts, and they showed the first film of UFOs was shown in the apartment that I lived in. Wow. I mean, that's not an accident. Yeah.

Do you believe UFOs are, I mean, some people believe it's some type of a spiritual entity, and some people believe it's actually nuts and bolts... flying objects with extraterrestrials. What do you think? I think that the... I think that the, now if you read the books about civilization, weren't they supposed to be here at one time and help build our, and helped,

I think they're here to help us, are they're supposed to help us? How so? I don't know, didn't they come here and kind of at the beginning of Earth, they said when Earth wasn't so, No, didn't they come here and come at the beginning of Earth? They said when Earth was and so, I guess they were trying to help.

They had visited Earth before and they were to help, they help mankind is from what I understand. I mean, there's all kinds of theories out there. I am a Christian, so, you know, I believe what I believe, but there's definitely lots of theories out there about, you know, the pyramids, Stonehenge, Easter Island, all of these things. And it sounds like, you know, I've interviewed a lot of other people like, are you familiar with Randall Carlson by chance?

No, what's his name? Randall basically, you know, in a very dub down version, he thinks that the... Basically that the earth resets and that there were older civilizations that went extinct that were possibly way more advanced than anything that we have now and it's like a it's just a big it's almost like sounds like kind of like reincarnation yeah I agree with that a reset I like that a reset, I like that. A reset. I like that, that makes sense.

Have you ever remote viewed anything such as that? The lost city of Atlantis. I think I did one time, but I thought I was underwater a lot. Did it go underwater? The Atlantis? Yeah. Well, nobody's found it. Okay, cause I thought it was underwater.

No. Well, I have not, Atlantis, but, oh, the Stonehenge, remote, the Stonehenge, Remote View Stonehenge, I felt like that was the, in the pyramids, I felt like there was some type of supernatural help or energy there on both of those. Stonehenge in the Egyptian pyramid. Is that something that you remote viewed or is that?

Yeah, I remote viewed and I felt like they were, there was supernatural energy or help that put these things in place. Can you describe that experience? It was very expanding. I felt like the energy was very expanding and I felt there was a lot of knowledge and I felt there was a lot of knowledge and I felt there was a lot of light and goodness.

It was a time of learning. Especially with the Egyptian, I felt like there was, it was very monumental. It was a time of learning. I felt it was good energy. It was a time of learning. I felt it was good energy. It was all good energy. It was exciting.

Interesting, interesting. What are some personal ventures that really stick out in your mind? You mean in remote viewing? Yes. You mean in remote viewing, helping other people or remote viewing? Something that's not on the job. Oh, how I help somebody?

Your extracurricular, whether it's whether it's it's you're trying to answer your own curiosities or could be helping somebody. Oh, yeah. I did help somebody once. I did help somebody once. And it's a funny story, and I lost his number, but I got a call one night from a guy from New York, and I don't know how he got my number,

but he was an older gentleman. And this is a fun, I mean, this is just, he called me up and he said, I've never been married. He said, I wanna be married. He says, I wanna have children. And I guess I'm gonna have to marry somebody younger because he really wanted children. So he said, do you think I'm gonna be married?

I said, I think you're going to get married. He goes, well, where am I going to meet my wife? Oh, and he said, how am I going to meet my wife? And I just said, she's your neighbor. And he could hear me go, here we go. And he could hear me go, what? What are you talking about? What do you mean?

She's, I'm thinking of my neighbor. I don't have a neighbor I can meet. What do you mean? So, you know my neighbor. I don't have a neighbor I can meet. What do you mean? So, you know, by that time I'm just getting, he says, I'm gonna go online and I'm gonna find a girl. I said, okay, go online. I didn't even, you know, it was like a 10 minute conversation that, you know,

I didn't even charge him money. So about three months later, he calls me up and he goes, hey, I go online, nothing's working out. You think I'm going to get married? I go, you're going to get married. And he goes, who am I going to marry? I go, you're going to marry your neighbor. And he goes, what are you talking about?

You're crazy. So we argue and we argue. And he's did this a couple of times. So one time he called and he goes, this is Abe. And he heard me take a breath, like, oh no, here we go again. And he goes, please, please don't hang up. He goes, please don't hang up. He said, he goes, guess what?

I go, what? He goes, I'm getting married. I said, who are you marrying? He said, my neighbor. So I said, so I said, who are you marrying? He said, my neighbor. So I said, so tell, he said there was a school that he had, he lived next to a school or a college or something. And apparently the girl was going to school there or something. So it was his neighbor who, and then she happened to be his sister's neighbor.

So, you know, but anyway, but he could tell by that time I was ready to hang up the phone with him. And he goes, please don't hang up, don't hang up. Listen to me, listen to me. He goes. Wow. So I go, okay, now you happy?

He goes, yeah, I'm happy, I'm happy. But I wanted to stay in contact with him to find out if he ever had children, but I'm sure he did. Wow. That's fascinating. Before we move on with your career also, we had a, I wanted to save, I kind of cut it on the break, but we were talking about other dimensions. How would you describe other dimensions? I don't know. I guess, I don't know.

I mean, how can, sometimes if you look up at the stars at night, I mean, that's kind of different. I would feel like that would be a different dimension. Well, what you were describing was it sounded like your mother. Yeah, my mother would, I have no idea how to even explain this, but she would, she got older in life. My mother was very, she was very psychic.

And as she got older in life, my mother was very, she was very psychic. And as she got older in life, she would call me up and she would say, she was, you know, she was coming home from shopping or from grocery shopping and that she would make a right, you know, she would turn on the road to come home. And she would, so she would turn on the road and then she would be somewhere. And she said that she would then she would be somewhere. And she said that she would be there and she would see beautiful stars or she'd see beautiful

scenery and then she would sit there for a while and then she would drive home. And then it would hit her later that wherever she turned there was no road. So what was she doing? She was going, she had to be going into another dimension or something. She's saying she was physically in another dimension. She had to have been, because there were, and when I would go home to visit her, she would say, this is where I turn,

and it would be, there would be no road. It would be no road. It would be cornfields. What would she experience then? Oh, wonderful. She said, oh, it was beautiful. She said that she felt a lot of peace, a lot of love. She felt energized. And she would have to remind herself

that she would have to, oh, she would kind of get shocked. Oh yeah, I better get home. And that happened to her a couple of times. Wow. Have you experienced other dimensions? No. Not like that. But in a different way?

Sometimes head-wise, I feel I'm someplace else. Not like she did, Sometimes head-wise I feel I'm someplace else. Sometimes I don't... Not like she did, but sometimes I feel... I don't know, sometimes I feel like the planet's moving sometimes. What do you mean by that? You can feel the planets move. How so? I don't know, they just move sometimes.

I don't know, sometimes I feel like my head's just, I don't know. Is, I'm sorry I'm bombarding you with questions right now. You say that psychic abilities are a form of advanced intuition, like a gut feeling. Like let me give an example. So you're kind of talking about reading energy. Am I correct? And so, there's a seal. Entering a room, an unknown room on a target, and I'm clearing the room. You can feel an energy in there. You can feel who's good, who's bad. You enter into kind of somewhat of a flow state and it becomes a very intuitive experience.

And I've talked to several former colleagues of mine and everybody kind of says the same thing. You're breeding energy and you're feeling the room and it's intuition, some of it. It's a gut feeling, you know, or when you're in a place and you feel like something bad's about to happen, sometimes people get a gut feeling. Is that similar to?

That's exactly what it is. And probably you're working at a higher level than intuition. If you're going into a situation and have to figure out who's good, who's bad, and you're in a room, it's higher than intuition. Now, they found that a lot of people in the investigative work, like a lot of cops,

they developed that sixth sense. Like all of a sudden they'll solve a case all on a hunch. You know, and sometimes a lot of, they don't want to talk about it because they're afraid they're going to be laughed at. But yeah, a lot of investigative people, probably a lot of Navy SEALs, you develop that, you develop that. You have to develop that to survive.

So you're probably doing that, that's more than intuition. You're operating at a higher, it's more than, but always listen to your gut. I've learned that. I've learned that the hard way several times. Yeah, I know. And I've gone, I got, yeah, me too. And I, yeah, that happens.

Yeah, yeah, I've gone against just, every time I go against it, I regret regret it and so I really try not to do that now no matter no matter how excited I am about an opportunity or an individual that I'm about to meet or or yeah you get I get a I get a feeling about it every once in a while and then and I really try to follow that. So can you, is this something that you can, can you tap into it, or is it just switched on all the time?

You mean the intuition. I think it works for you whenever, I think it works, I really think it works for you whenever, I think it works. I really think it works for you when you need it. If you want to walk through that door and your intuition is telling you don't walk through that door, you know, if it's day, it could scream at you really loud,

don't walk through that door. And if you listen to your intuition, you wouldn't walk through the door. I think that, if you listened to your intuition, you wouldn't walk through the door. I think that, sometimes I think your intuition and your psychic abilities can be very high,

and other times they're not as high. But you can't be psychic all the time at a high level because then you're gonna be crazy. Okay. You know, I know there's a lot of naysayers out there about this, and, but you know, I think a perfect example of of this would be that people can, I can't say relate to, but if you talk to rape victims, a lot of rape victims had knew

they were in a bad situation before it actually happened. And do you know what I'm saying? They get in, they get a feeling that something's not right and go against their gut. And then it happens. Yeah, oh yeah. And so I just, I'm trying to bring more common occurrences up to the audience so that they can. Always listen to the gut.

Begin to wrap their head around what we're speaking about. Yeah. Yeah, I think that, I mean, you've had experience where you know, like, you think of somebody and they call. Yes. Or you know what's in, you're going out to the mail, but you know what's in the mailbox. Yes.

Yeah, that's intuition. And that's all good. But I also think, too, it works at higher, it's more than that. And you can, it's more than that. I mean even manifestation. How do you manifest something? Yeah, a lot of people are into, yeah, how do you manifest what you need? A lot of people, I haven't got that one yet.

I haven't... Have you felt like you've manifest things that you wanted in your life? I do. Several things. And how did you visualize? You know, I don't... I don't... Now I'm starting to,

I'm understanding how tough these questions can be that I'm asking you. I don't know how to describe it. I do believe I've manifested things. I believe I've manifested, I believe that I've manifested certain things within my family. I believe I've manifested certain things within my family. I believe I've manifested certain things within business. I believe I've manifested things,

not even realizing that I've manifested them. And if you'd like, I could give you a couple of examples. Yeah, please. So it's interesting, because me and Laura, who you met, were having a discussion about this. If this is all real, I mean, it's a controversial subject. And I said, I think that I absolutely believe

that it's real because we don't understand, we only use 10% of our brains, supposedly. We don't understand consciousness. And I think we're capable of so much more than we have any. We put the limitations on ourselves. Everybody, there's the old saying, you know, that there are no limits, sky's the limit. And no matter who you are,

you're putting some sort of limitation on yourself. You could be the wealthiest man in the world. and no matter who you are, you're putting some sort of limitation on yourself. You could be the wealthiest man in the world. Well, I still think that there are limitations in his head that are keeping him from achieving other goals, maybe not financial, maybe not business, but anyways. So some examples would be, here's an accidental one that I think may have happened.

When I proposed to my wife, I did it in Alaska, and I wanted to, I went there to work with a former SEAL named Jeffreed, who's an Iditarod racer now. And I went up to shoot some content with him for YouTube. And when we went up there, I wanted to, it was also a vacation for me and my girlfriend at the time, and who's now my wife. And I told Jeff when we got there I said hey I want to propose to my wife here and I want to do it under the Northern Lights having no idea that and this is in August had no idea that Northern Lights never show up in August and I believe he said you'll be lucky if the Northern Lights popped in October.

That would be the earliest time that you'll see him. This is Fairbanks, Alaska. Later that night, that same night that I told him, and I thought, oh shit, all right, well I guess I'll maybe I'll get a helicopter tour and do it on top of a glacier and Denali National Park or something like that well Fast forward that evening He shoots me a text and says you're not gonna believe this but the northern lights are out right now And you got about 15 minutes because they never stay out longer than that and I was like shit I had flown my film crew up and I had to give them a ride

from the airport and they flew in separately. So I went and picked up the first guy, went back, picked up the second guy. That's about an hour and a half's time worth. Then they want to tell me all about their European vacation that they went on and Katie. And I'm Freaking out because the northern lights are still kicking an hour and a half later

Then it took me about an hour and a half two hours to find a place to do it went all over the place the northern lights Finally kicked off after two three hours of lighting up the sky. I finally found my spot They went away and I just thought, God, please just give me just a glimmer so that I can just propose to my girlfriend here. They came back on, she was passed out. I'm waking her up, I'm going, hey, get up. Wake up, we gotta get out.

And proposed to her as soon as we kissed. The entire sky lit up with the Northern Lights. There you go. And in August, which apparently is next to impossible. So you manifested that. I think so. You know, and I have lots more examples of similar things,

you know, with every aspect of my life. And then, but that was just me thinking. Fast forward, I had, psychedelics actually really opened my mind up to all of this. And I had, I don't wanna get into that now, but that really expanded my mind. It made me realize there are so many more possibilities

than we can even imagine. And that got me into meditation, that got me into manifestation. And I thought, you know what? I'm just gonna concentrate on one thing that I want to happen, is without having intrusive thoughts into my head. So I would start meditating,

which I've gotten away from that. I would put a rife machine on. Do you know what a rife machine is? And I'll put a rife machine on during my meditation. I would let all the thoughts clear my head. Like the way it was described to me is think of thoughts like clouds and just let them all run through

until you're completely at peace and then think of what you want. And so I would do that and things would start happening. that it made me, it's really made me hesitant to vocalize things out loud about people that maybe have screwed me over that I don't like or whatever because now I'm starting, I'm beginning to realize holy shit what you throw out into the world might actually happen. And so I've been very hesitant to, I don't wish bad on people anymore. And I used to. And then I saw some of those things

come to fruition as well. And I realized how powerful thought can actually be. Meditation is very, very powerful. Do you meditate? Not as much as I should. I used to do more, but I think it's very powerful. I do too. I knew a woman that meditated.

She said one day she woke up, she says, it's like your body becomes like a river. I knew a woman that meditated. She said one day she woke up, she says, it's like your body becomes like a river, you just flow. And she said, she woke up one morning and she said, I wanted an apple and she said, 10 minutes later, a guy was at her door with a bush of apples. But you know, that's just an example.

But yeah, be careful what you say. But yeah, I know about people. Sometimes you just have to feel, I don't even try to, I don't even dislike people anymore. I just let it go. Yeah. It's, I guess they have their own lessons or whatever. I'm not quite to that point yet, but I'm working on it.

There's just so much. I mean, people can be funny sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. But let's get back to your career at DIA. OK. Where did we leave off? Well, the program ended in 1995.

So I was able to... The program ended. I had to go back into... I went back to the headquarters at Bowling Air Force Base, and I worked as an analyst. I worked as a... Russian and Chinese analysts work on certain issues.

Okay. What ended the program? I think that when Dr. Verona retired, I think we lost a lot of our support. And they put, in his replacement was a man who I don't think really wanted the program. And Dale Graff had retired, we lost a lot of support. We had a lot of support. We had a lot of congressional support. We had a lot of, we had high support that just went away

when certain people retired. And the people coming in, they didn't have the curiosity for the learning. They didn't have the curiosity to try to learn how we think it works. If you go into a session to work an operational target, they were giving you too much information. They just didn't want us.

And I think Congress was trying to help us, and they thought if they could get us to CIA, at least we may have more support. Well when they transferred us to CIA, CIA said they wanted to do a six-month study. And they did a six-month study, but they never gave, whoever did the study, they did an out, they called in a company from the outside to do a study to see if ESP works, but they never gave them people the clearances so that they could read the operational successes

that we had. And they came out six months later and says, no, this doesn't work. Well, what happened was we were packing up boxes and we were packing up all the information from Fort Meade, and it ended up in Langley. And after they closed the program, I was back at bowling working for DIA,

and I got a call from a guy at the Department of Defense, a policymaker, and he said, he said he wanted to go, he was a policymaker in charge of special access programs, and he was curious as to why that program was shut down, so he called me up and said, let's go to the CIA and get the documents. He wanted to see the documents to find out why it was shut down whenever he knew there was some good work coming out of there. So when we went to retrieve the documents, the documents were never opened.

So the documents were never open for anybody to review them to see if we were good at, if we ever solved any problems. So I think the CIA did not want us. Interesting. And I think the CIA gets blamed for everything. No matter what goes wrong, the CIA gets blamed for everything. And I think the CIA had that one program back in what, the 50s and 60s where they were doing mind

control on people and giving people LSD. Congress had to stop that. And George Tenet was the head of the CIA at the time. And I think he just didn't want to take it on. It would have been too much of a headache. Interesting. Do you think? And also too, I think they had to start getting rid of smaller programs. There was the downside, and there was budget too.

And so I think CIA must have, I think they got a message from Congress saying, get rid of your small programs or something. And they got scared, so they just erased them. But I do think that they did not give the program, when they brought in that agency to say whether or not this can be used in an operational mode, I don't think that we were given a fair shake because it be used in an operational mode, I don't think that we were given a fair shake

because it was used in an operational mode and we've had successes. Do you think that the program continued on under a different name at a later date? No. And if it did not, when our program existed, we had, it was congressionally mandated. We had the remote viewers, we had, it was congressionally mandated. We had the remote viewers.

We had the research that, we had research going on. We were, the government was paying Stanford. They were paid, we had a lot of research money going out. And then we had the foreign assessment, meaning we had an analyst looking at what other countries were doing. So it was a robust, it was a robust, meaning we had an analyst looking at what other countries were doing. So it was a robust program.

Plus we needed, so now when I went back to DIA and worked, a lot of people would say, oh, I remote view and I'm in touch and this is what I get and this is what... I don't know, I don't think there was. And even if there was, they weren't doing it in the formal way that was being done. And if it was being done, where was the information given to to help people? I don't think so, I just don't think so.

And also, if a program were to exist, at some point, they would have had to look at the science. And if they would have looked at the science, certain people would have been contacted, like Ed May, SRI. No, I don't think so. Do you think so? A lot of people say, oh, it's going on, it's going on. I do think so. Why do you say that? Because I've had former colleagues tell me that they've seen them bring them in. Bring what in?

Bring remote viewers in. Okay. And that could be, because I met a kid in Florida who said he could move up, he bent coins and that, and I think he was brought in by the CIA. Interesting. But that's not, so that's one thing, but that's not a program.

I mean, that's, yeah, maybe, maybe so. I mean, maybe they do bring people in and use them. Police agencies bring people, psychics in and use them. Are the people getting paid? If they're, are they getting paid? I don't know. I didn't personally see them. But people that have, that are very close to me, that I've worked very close with, that I still have relationships with today, have told me about this before I even knew what the hell remote viewing was. Okay. Like did

you see that? They just brought remote viewers in and I go what the hell is a viewer? But and now today I've reached back out and I'm like I remember when you told me this. I mean I mean maybe they were but it still didn't make it, it still didn't make it a, I guess we were mandated, I guess. You know, we would go to a building and work. Yeah. You bring somebody in, that's different. Are you paying them?

Interesting. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I don't have the answers to those questions, but I'd like to move on. I know you have, you want talk about Uri Geller. Okay, I have a Uri Geller story. Okay, in 2000, I retired from the federal government

in 2010. Now in 2015, no, 2014, Annie Jacobson wrote, she interviewed people for her book. Phenomenal. Yeah. I got a call. So I was interviewed by Annie for her book. And one night I received an email from her and she was going over some of my training

targets. And she liked one of my training targets. It was the St. Louis Arc. And she said, and she wanted to use that for the book because I did a good job in remote viewing the St. Louis Arc. So she emailed me and she said, you know, read this, is this right? I want to put the, you know, what you did about the St. Louis Ark in the book. And I said, and I emailed her back and I said, yeah, I'll give you information.

And then she emailed me back and she says, can you do it now? I'm kind of in a hurry. I'm leaving for Israel tomorrow. I'm going to, uh, Uri Gowler invited her to his house to come out. And I said, well, I thought you already interviewed him because she went to England to interview him. And she said, she said, no, I interviewed him in England, but I've never been to Israel. And he asked me to go, he asked me to go to Israel. So I said, oh, well, good for you.

So I guess while she was over there, so we ended on the note that we were talking about the St. Louis Ark. She wanted that information before she left. So she went over to Israel and she was spending time with Lyori. And at one point she said, I wanna buy postcards for my family.

And they were in a tea shop. So the owner of the tea shop came over and he said, my postcards are on that top shelf. So, I guess either her or Uri Geller went over. And I think it was him. He reached up on the, no, I think it was him, because he reached up on the shelf and he picked out a postcard for her

and here it was the St. Louis Ark. And that's what she, and that's what her and I were discussing before she left. So when she saw the picture, she knew, she identified it with me. Wow. And she freaked, I guess she kind of freaked out. And she said, oh, you're not going to believe this,

but she was using that this, the St. Louis Ark is one of her, for information for the paper. So anyway, I think she kind of freaked out. So she said, oh my goodness, why this, of all things, why the St. Louis Ark in Israel? So anyway, he signed it for me. It says, for Angela, much energy and love. You are a galler.

And then he drew a picture. Wow. So what is the, that's incredible. What is the, what was the story behind your remote viewing of the St. Louis Ark? It was just a training target that I did and I did a very good job. Okay.

And she just wanted to put it in the book. Like this viewer was tasked. In other words, the St. Louis Arc is an arc and when I remote viewed it, I drew the arc. It was just something that she wanted to show in the book. And in the book, she describes my remote viewing session of the St. Louis Arc. And when she emailed me, she said that this was an excellent session, I wanna put it in the book. And she needed more information from me about the St.

There was nothing significant about it. It was just a training target that I remote viewed at one time and that she wanted information on it right before she left, before she went to meet Uri Gowler because she was impressed with the target. So my last conversation with her was about the St. Louis Arc.

So when she went to see Uri and he picked up the- The- Count of coincidence. So when she would see Yori and he picked up the... Not a coincidence. She completely thought of me and she was like, oh my goodness, you know, I just, a couple of days ago she was discussing this with me. Man, I mean, what do you make of stuff like that? I don't know. Does that have to do with creating your own reality at all? I don't know. Does that have to do with the creating your own reality at all?

I don't know. I mean, I don't know. You and Yuri Geller work together, correct? No, I never met him. What is the Catch the Spy story? What story is that? I have in my notes. Catch a Spy story. What story is that? I have in my notes. Angela helped up, excuse me, Scott.

Carmichael. Scott Carmichael. No, I was on CBS Sunday Morning News. I was interviewed, and Yori was interviewed too for that program, but we weren't interviewed at the same time. Okay. So I did have that connection.

Well, that came after the book. How did you catch a spy? I was approached by, after the program ended and I was back at DIA working as an analyst, people would approach me to, can you do this? Can you do that? Because they knew what I did. And sometimes I'd help them, sometimes I wouldn't.

But there was one man that really wanted help. And he asked me if I would help him. And I think, you know, he got the okay from some higher ops but we had to do it on private time. We couldn't do it on government time. So I was helping this man out. It was a very sensitive project and I was helping him. But whatever information I was getting,

I don't know what I was getting because I didn't even know what the operation was. I gave him some information and he called in a colleague of his by the name of Scott Carmichael. And he said, Scott, I have some information here that I know what you're working on. And this information may be helpful to, you know,

for some of your friends over at the State Department. By friends, he meant people that he worked with that share information with the State Department. And Scott said, well, how did you get this information? And the man said, I got it from a psychic. And Scott said, from a psychic? Are you crazy? I'm not gonna go to the State Department

and tell them that this information came from a psychic. He said, I wouldn't, I'm not gonna do that. So anyway, Scott said that he left, but he said, you know, he had this problem. He had this, he had this problem. He had this case that he just couldn't get out of his mind. He just couldn't get out of his mind. So he went back to my friend. And he said, how does this work?

So the guy said, well, here, just put what do you want to know? And they'll make up a little envelope and they'll put something in the envelope and they'll mix the envelope in with this guy's stuff and then they'll pick it out. And some point I would be working on Scott's project. So I guess one day I woke up or when they gave me this project and I don't know what I said, I identified a guy as,

I think Baker, I said the last name was Baker. Maybe the first name was Jeff. And I said he was Australian. I said he was Australian and he was going to sell US secrets. Well, that came out immediately. So Scott came back and he said that was right. They said that was right.

They said that there was, what happened was the United States had a unit in Australia that worked with the Australians and they were imagery analysts. And I guess one of the imagery analysts tried to sell, he, when you try to sell secrets, you'd never use your real name. So they knew his real name wasn't Jeff Baker,

but they didn't know who he was. So now we know that they knew whatever I said was right. But now they came back to me and they said, who was Jeff Baker? So I described him as an Australian. I said, what did he look like? I said his age range. I said he was on drugs.

And I don't know what else I said, so now they kind of had a profile of this person. And so now they were trying to look for him. Now Scott worked for the FBI because if there's any spies, the FBI always arrests them because that's the arresting agency. But Scott did not tell the FBI he was working with a psychic

because he said if it ever went to court, it would may have been thrown out because they received information from a psychic. So we were kind of going along with the case and Scott didn't think I was doing too good, but in retrospect, I don't think they were asking the questions right. And he even admitted that,

but there seemed to be, it seemed to be I did really good at the beginning and then things were kind of going, weren't going real good. And then I don't know what I said. I said there was going to be a meeting that was going to take place. I felt that the guy would be apprehended and there was supposed to be a meeting on a certain day.

Well, now when this kid, when this person went to the Singapore Embassy to sell the secrets, the Singapore Embassy contacted the United States and said, there's a guy here trying to sell your secrets. So something was set up like, what do you call one of those plans where you try to lure the guy in? Sting. Sting. So at that point, they decided to do a sting operation.

And at that time I was kind of losing, I really wasn't doing really good at the case. But I don't know what happened. I was able to provide some information and I can't even remember what it is. Scott wrote a Kindle book called Unconventional Method. But at that point, I didn't feel, I felt like this is, I knew it wasn't going real well.

But Scott came in, the FBI agent asked Scott to come in on a Sunday to work. They really wanted to work the case. And Scott started to read some message traffic. And he said, he doesn't, whatever I said, whatever scenarios I was describing, this information was in this message traffic. And Scott said, I think this guy, his last name

was Wes Pierre. He was Australian. Scott said, I think this guy, his last name was West Pierre. He was Australian. Scott said, I think this is our guy, that this is the guy we want. He's Australian. And the FBI agents said, no, the person we're looking for is Canadian. And they went back and forth,

and Scott kept saying, are you sure he's not Australian? And she said, no, he's Canadian. So Scott said, well, let me look something up because you can have dual citizenship. And here the guy had dual citizenship. He was Australian and Canadian. And here that was the guy that they were able to apprehend. Wow.

What does it feel like to you when you... Oh, I was all happy because I hate to be wrong. I mean, I'm very happy when I'm right because you're not right all the time. You know, you don't always get it. I mean, I can remote view and, you know, it can be very vague. It can be very, very vague. It can be very vague. And a lot of times you're not right. Or a lot of times you may feel that you're right,

but people aren't there to check out the information. So if I'm giving information and it's right and somebody checks it out and it's right and it hits, oh, I'm very happy. What is your favorite operation that you've been a part of? I think the one with the finding the guy in the finding Charles Jordan, the fugitive.

He was the customs agent, the finding Charles Jordan, the fugitive. He was the customs agent, the drug guy that went bad. I think that probably was the biggest because nobody ever thought he would be in Wyoming. That I did like doing the hostages because I felt like I was really, I felt like my information was acted upon to help them. So that made me feel good. Anything with kids?

Yes, but like, yes. Can you go into that? Well, yeah. Yeah, trying to locate some kids that may have been human trafficking. Yeah That was hard That was hard. I was able to give some locations, but I don't know if they but I never had any feedback on that So I figured it probably didn't go anywhere, but it could have been more of a secret more of a secret type operation, too

secret type operation too. So now you're teaching at the Monroe Institute. Well, I only teach the remote view part too. It's, you know, like I only teach twice, twice a year, but it's always nice to connect with Joe. Do you enjoy it? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Just, you know, Joe, we just, oh, yeah.

Have you ever worked with Joe? Oh, yeah. He's wonderful. Out, have you know Joe, we just, oh yeah. Have you ever worked with Joe? Oh yeah, he's wonderful. Have you, in the old days? No, he retired in 1984 and I came in the unit in 1986. Okay, okay. But I met him through Ed May and then I, but yeah, he's wonderful.

Yeah, I got nothing but good things to say about him and his wife. But, so what is, tell me a little bit about the Monroe Institute. I got nothing but good things to say about him and his wife. So what is, tell me a little bit about the Monroe Institute. Well, it's, Bob Monroe was a man, I guess he lived in New York City. He was a radio personality, I think. I think, I don't know if he owned a radio station,

but he used to have out-of-bodies, and I guess he went to a psychologist because he thought he was crazy, and the guy said, no, you're not crazy. You're having out of body experiences. So he built the Monroe Institute and people can go down there and when you listen to certain frequencies, it's, it's, it's, it's like, it's just teaching people how to be psychic, how to go out of body. It's, it's like a metaphysical institute.

So can you walk us through what you teach? Oh, I just teach the second part of remote. I just teach the remote viewing to the last segment. And it's just nothing much. I mean, it's nothing much. You just put the, you talk to the students, you see what they learned, you know, what did you learn, look at their results. You have to teach them how to report back. I think a lot of times when you teach people to remote view, I think people can get the picture in the target,

but it's hard to come out and describe what you see. So teaching people how to remote, how to come back and report back. And just getting to know the students, finding out, you know, at what level are they. A lot of times I recommend books to read. If, you know, if they're interested in meditation, channeling.

I tell them what books I would recommend. I listen to people. Sometimes something will work for one person, but not the other. So do you sit in with the, do you sit in their sessions with them? No, I usually, I just do it by Zoom mostly. Oh, okay. It's by Zoom. So what, so it's individual?

Sometimes it is, no, it's with the group, but sometimes it, individuals get special attention. Okay. Okay. So what, I mean, what is the curriculum of the, of Part two? Joe teaches them how to remote view. And then I get them at the end to see how well they remote view. And then they do have questions on other things. And then we kind of take it out of remote viewing. They have a lot of questions on other things. What other things? Like channeling.

What is channeling? Automatic writing. They just want meditation, how they remote view. How are they remote viewing? I don't want them to do the steps like the CRV, and have to report back mostly. By the time I have them, they don't have to remote view. Do they do the hemisync?

No, I don't think they do the hemisync in remote viewing. They do it in something else. If you want hemisync, you have to go to the Monroe Institute and sign up for that. That's not remote viewing. What is HemiSync then? They put, you listen to sounds, you listen to music, and it works the brain a certain way

so that you can go out of body. So is it, can you describe that a little bit more in detail? Why that works? Because it's the mechanisms in the brain. It's the mechanism, the brain has to work a certain way for you to go out of body. And that's what the music or the sounds of the hemisync do. They put your body in the frequency so that you can, you have to have a certain frequency

so you can go out of body. And that's what Monroe did. That's what the Monroe Institute was all about, teaching people how to go out of body and where does the brain, what frequency does the brain need to be so you can go out of body? Can I ask a question? Why does it, what is the point of going out of body?

Why would you trigger that? Probably to, Probably two. I think that it expands one's consciousness. I think one can learn that there's more to life than just going out of body. I think that if you, it's better than remote viewing because if you have a, if you have a, if you want a problem, if you're looking for somebody and you can leave your body and go find them, you're gonna have all your senses and all of your thinking, it's not gonna be fuzzy.

You're gonna be so aware of where you are, where the person is. You can come back and report that. It's not gonna be so fuzzy as remote viewing, where you're only using, like, the right part of the brain. ... Do you still go out of body? Sometimes, but not like I used to.

Why not? Is that a personal decision? No. No, I have no control over it. I never did. I never did. I never did. Do you like going out of body? Oh, yeah. If you were out of body right now, what would you, would you be searching for an answer to something?

I'd probably be looking at everything around here. Where's the farthest you've traveled to? I think the sun. I think the sun. What was that like? Bright, very bright. I would imagine. Very bright. I was very happy. I remembered. Can you feel heat? Can you feel cold? Can you feel a doorknob? Yeah, I could feel myself walking through. Yeah. I think it's a mechanism inside the brain. Just something clicks. It's like people that levitate.

Something in there is working. It clicks. There's something, it's a mechanism in the brain just clicks. Is it like our brain is holding in our consciousness? And when that something in the brain is unlocked, it releases our consciousness? It releases us into another set of conscious, I guess, that we can then, you know, we can then, you know, we can then, you know,

we can then, you know, something in the brain is unlocked, it releases our consciousness. It releases us into a new, to another set of conscious, I guess. But it's still you though. You realize that you are on the floor when you're out of body. And you're still making your own decisions on where you want to go. Where are some other places you've traveled out of body? I think I went from, I think I went like from Maryland to Pennsylvania to visit my family. One time I think I went to Chicago. I don't know why I went to Chicago. I just want, I don't know. I don't know. But mostly it's mostly it's just,

it's mostly just nature, stars, trees. Very interesting. What am I not asking that I should be asking you? No, I think, I just think that, I think that you just think that, I think that you're probably very aware and intuitive yourself. Why do you think that? Because you told me some of the experiences that you had. There's a book called Human Design.

Have you read that book? No, ma'am, I'm not. It puts people into certain category, like you're either like a manifest or a generator, a creator, and it puts people into four personality types. It's a very interesting book. What's that book called? It's called Human Design.

Human Design. I'm going to look that up and try to get the author on here. If he's still alive. No, it's a good book. A lot of people, in fact, I, yeah, just, just, it's the different personalities. It just puts, it puts people in four different personalities. You could be a manifestor, because I'm a generator, so it'd be hard, it'd be hard for me to be a manifestor.

What is a generator? You have to let things come to you. So it'd be hard for me to be a manifestor. What is a generator? You have to let things come to you. You react to things that, a manifestor will go out and get things. The generator, information has to come to you, and then you react to the information. And that's how generators get, they react to information.

Okay. Okay, that's how they, yeah, different. Do you put any significance on certain numbers? So I'll give you an example. I said a spiritual experience in Sedona, and which I believe God was speaking to me. And shortly thereafter, I started to see the number 444 everywhere I went. I still see it all the time.

Okay, you look up the meaning of 444. It means your guardian angels are with you and want you to know that they're with you. Okay, then you're highly protected. 444 also ends up for 12. So that 12 could be in a three, and that's also a spirit, it's also protection. Really?

Mm-hmm, three's also, yeah, three is like big, yeah, protection. But when people start seeing numbers and when people start finding coins, when I went to see John Edward in Baltimore, he said, when people start seeing, pay attention to numbers, you're getting messages. And all of a sudden somebody may pass

and you start finding coins. That person is with you. Coins, what do you mean? What do you mean? Sometimes when people die, people like their loved ones will start just finding coins everywhere, like pennies and, did you ever find coins?

No, not that I'm aware of. Yeah, I had a girlfriend who, every time somebody died in her family, she would find coins. And her mother died and she found coins, so she knew that her mother was with her. I had a friend whose mother died, and the mother told her she would give her a sign

that she's okay. So it was winter time, and this bird kept showing up on my girlfriend's balcony. And my girlfriend would say, why is that, wonder why that bird's here, it's so cold. Cause you know, birds, birds fly south for the winter. And she said, that bird showed up every day. And the girl was like, what's that stupid bird here?

And here she finally, it was like her mother. And then she says, oh, okay, you're okay. And then she never saw the bird again. Wow. Do you believe in mediumship? Yeah, of course. Yeah. Can you do mediumship? Sometimes. So where are those souls?

I guess, I guess, I guess we call it heaven, right? It's like they're on the other side of the veil. I guess that's what we call our heaven. So they haven't been reincarnated yet. Can you ask, do you believe you can access once somebody has already been reincarnated? Yeah, but probably, but mostly, but yeah, but you just don't come back that easy.

I mean, there's a whole process to it. What do you mean by that? You go over and you just don't come back. You gotta go over there and you've got to, you have to take, I don't know, you're with other people. You have to take stock of what you do. You have to decide, do you wanna come back? And what, it's just, you just don't go and then come back

and let's get reincarnated. There's a process to it, I think. Interesting. I mean, could you get a little more descriptive on the process? Well, I think when you go over, they say that your loved ones are there and that when you pass over,

that your loved ones are there, and that when you pass over, that your loved ones will meet you. And then they sort of take you into these, into where I guess the, where the God source is, and it's really nice. And that more or less you can do what you want. If you want to study, they have like the, if you want to study, you can study. If you want to fish, you can fish. You can do whatever you want to study, they have like the, if you want to study, you can study. If you want to fish, you can fish.

You can do whatever you want. However, you do take stock. What did you learn in this life? How can you be better? And if you come back, you're with the same people and the role, you just get better. Do you think it's a completely different experience when you come back or are you reliving kind of the same?

Well, yeah, it's the same energy. But yeah, you will have you will still have some of the same energy from your previous lives. That's what you have to work out. Do you believe there are new souls and old souls? How are new souls? They're young and immature. How do they come about?

What do you mean, how do they come about? I mean, if there's old souls and new souls, what creates a new soul? Probably someone that hasn't had many Earth experiences. Do you think you can tell the difference between an old soul and a new soul? Oh yeah. You can tell by a person's face. What do you think I am? Probably an old soul. because you're searching.

You're searching. You're searching. Let's talk about astrology. OK. But when's your birthday? October 4, 1982. Okay. So you're a Libra? Yes.

Okay, so what do you want to know about astrology? How does it work? Oh, I don't know. I don't know that much about astrology, although I do know astrologers. You know, they... It's more than your birth sign, but there's a lot that they look at, okay, the time you were born and where you were born, and they look at other things. I guess they look at the 12 planets and where they were at the time of your birth, and then

from that, they get a full picture of who you are. Then once they, that's your personality, and then they can take that and do projections into the future as to what could happen to you. So you may be a Libra, but your rising sign would be another. Your rising sign gives you more of your personality, and your moon placement gives you your emotions. So even though you're a Libra,

you've got to look at the other things to figure out, to give you the full picture of who you are. How does that determine things? I think it's just great to know your personality, and know who you are. A lot of times people will go to astrologers to look at, you know, where were the planets when I was born and what does it all mean?

And it gives, I think it can help give people a better sense about themselves, who they are, why they're here, what they would be good at, what they wouldn't be good at. And then you have transits, like if somebody's looking for a new job, what they would be good at, what they wouldn't be good at. And then you have transits, like if somebody's looking for a new job, there may be a transit coming up that's saying,

well, this would be a good time to look for a new job, or this would be a good time to buy a new house. And then they can take that and project it into the future. Man, I don't know what questions to ask because I wasn't anticipating going here, but I mean, what is it about the dates, the moon, all of this stuff that kind of predetermines, it sounds like it predetermines your personality

and your strengths. It can, but I mean, weren't the wise men, weren't they supposed to be astrologers? They were. And I think Jesus wasn't a scene, he wasn't a scene, and that those people, they were vegetarians and they were astrologers. And the other tribes didn't like them

because in the Essene tribe, women had a lot of power. And it made the other tribes upset. And that's why they didn't like Mary Magdalene. It was the tribe that Jesus belonged to. He was in a scene. When you look at somebody, do you feel that you can tell if they're a good person or not right off the bat?

Oh, sure. What else? You can do it too. I feel like I can. But I also have been wrong several times. And there's some people that are out of the ball. Oh yeah, and there's some people that will surprise you. And like my cousin would say, well, we just didn't see that one coming.

If you're wrong, all you say is, well, I didn't see that one coming. But yeah, most of the time. But yeah, I mean, of course, there's always gonna be somebody that's gonna take you by surprise. Well, Angela, I know you have a flight to catch and thank you very much.

I just want to say thank you for coming. Oh, it's been my pleasure. Yeah, I have really enjoyed this conversation and I hope we stay in touch. Oh, we will. I'm going to get you some books.

I'm going to get you. Thanks. OK, thanks a lot. My pleasure. Hey, it's Rich Eisen here. Join me and my compadre, Chris Brockman, every Monday on the Overreaction Monday podcast. Rich, Jameis has taken the brouts to the playoffs. Dude, why can't they win seven, eight games to finish the year? Why not?

I'm not saying it's no why not, but this is a definitive statement that's clearly an overreaction and is perfect fodder for a show like this one. I appreciate you coming out of the gate hot. Come react or overreact with us. Overreaction Monday. Wherever you listen, it's game over. Over, man.