Shawn Ryan Show - #204 Larry Vickers - Delta Force: Operation Acid Gambit

Episode Date: May 29, 2025

Larry Vickers is a 20-year veteran of the U.S. Army, with extensive service in the 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (Delta Force). After retiring, he became a leading firearms instructor, CEO of Vickers Tactical, and a key consultant for firearms manufacturers like Heckler & Koch and Wilson Combat. Vickers is also known for his YouTube channel, Vickers Tactical, where he reviews firearms and shares expertise with millions. As a historian and collector, he brings a wealth of knowledge on military tactics, gear, and the evolution of firearms. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: ⁠https://www.americanfinancing.net/srs ⁠ nmls 182334, nmlsconsumeraccess.org ⁠https://www.tryarmra.com/srs ⁠ ⁠https://www.fastgrowingtrees.com/srs ⁠– USE CODE SRS ⁠https://www.shawnlikesgold.com ⁠ ⁠https://www.hometitlelock.com⁠ – USE CODE SRS Go to ⁠https://www.hometitlelock.com/srs⁠ and use promo code srs to get a free title history report so you can find out if you’re already a victim and 14 days of protection for free! Make sure to check out the Million Dollar TripleLock Protection details when you get there! Exclusions apply. For details visit ⁠https://www.hometitlelock.com/warranty ⁠ ⁠https://www.lumen.me/srs ⁠ ⁠https://www.ziprecruiter.com/srs ⁠ ⁠https://www.rocketmoney.com/srs⁠ Larry Vickers Links: Website - https://lavickers.com IG - https://www.instagram.com/thelarryvickers  YT - ​​http://youtube.com/vickerstacticalinc  FB - https://www.facebook.com/LarryVickers  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I appreciate you being here. Oh, I couldn't be happier to be here. This is a legendary interview. Well, thanks for saying that. I welcome humble bro. Yeah, you know, I mean, I remember, I remember getting connected to a Tom Satterley. Yeah, that's to me. It was like, Hey, do you want to interview Larry Vickers? And I was like, Fuck, yes, I want to interview Larry Vickers. So yeah, fast forward what maybe six months and yeah, here we are

Yeah, so I'm a really excited man. Thanks, bro. I'm too. I've been stoked about this for weeks now. Good Yeah, big time good. Well, we're gonna do a life story on you childhood Army career what happened afterwards some of the mix-ups that you're dealing with right now, but But everybody starts off with an introduction so here we go Larry Vickers retired US Army first SFOD Delta operator spending 15 years in the unit with over 20 years total in special operations making you one of the most seasoned warriors of your era.

Stormed Modelo Prison in Panama during Operation Acid Gambit, rescuing Kurt Muse under heavy fire earning a Bronze Star with Valor for your actions. Survived three helicopter crashes, more than any other operator at the time, and you walked away from every single one of those crashes. You're the mastermind behind the HK416, the rifle that took down Osama bin Laden in a driving force in shaping modern tactical firearms and accessories. Founder of Vickers Tactical and author of the Vickers Guide, setting the standard for firearms scholarship. And there's a lot more we had to we had to

cut it down cut it down just a little bit because we'll get into all the other stuff on in the interview and then before we start everybody gets a gift even you Larry I heard that so those are legal in all 50 states still it's until long until that band dies and all the other shit but it's just the Jones League gummy bears man made in the USA they taste amazing yeah they're horrible for you but I love them yeah I heard about this everybody told me hey you're gonna get a gift yeah man everybody gets a gift cool it doesn't beat yours, though.

The Vickers guide, Heckler. Oh, yeah. Yeah, volume three. That is awesome. Actually, volume two, excuse me. Volume two, yeah. The sub-machine gun book. What's volume three?

Roller lock guns, meaning G3 and like the HK21 series. And then volume four is coming out this year which is all the post-roller lock guns at 416, G36, 417, G11, XMA, all that stuff. That's the one I'm really stoked about because of my time with the 416 being involved with that particular gun. Cool. Really stoked about that one. It's coming out later this year? What's your, I mean, you've been around firearms for a long time, you're an innovator, I mean,

any firearm in the world, what's your favorite? The M4. The M4? M4-ish, you know what I mean? Some automatic, different barrel lengths, just kind of throw them all in the M4 bucket. That would be my favorite. Gotcha. Because they have so much time with it.

And I put the 416 in with that too, because it's basically an M4 with a different operating system. That's all it is. I love the 416. Thank you. We used to use those. Thank you. Well, let's get into the interview. So we always start a childhood.

Where'd you grow up? Ohio, a real small town in Ohio called Adams Mills. We know when you have a traffic light. I mean, we're talking about small. Nice. Born in 1963, classic baby boomer. I was a baby boomer by one year. 1964 is the last year of baby boomers.

So I was a baby boomer by one year. Both my parents were involved in World War II. My dad was a World War II vet in North Africa and Italy. My mom worked on the home front making artillery shells. Oh, no kidding. Yeah. I had a munitions factory making artillery shells. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, I had a munitions factory making artillery shells. Wow.

Yeah. So, I kind of grew up from that and then that mindset and the great thing about it was you had maximum freedom. Like I would take off at the beginning of the day, the classic deal you've heard about, take off at the beginning of the day, they wouldn't see me till, you know, time for dinner. You're gone. You're out in the woods. You're taking a BB gun. As I got older, I'd take a bolt action 22, single shot 22. I'm hunting, you know, rabbits, squirrels, groundhogs.

And they, my parents, they'd have no idea where I'm at. They know I'm around and whatnot. And another thing they would do is, hey, it's time to come home. We haven't seen Larry. So they'd start calling the neighbors. You know what I mean? Real small town. They knew everybody.

They knew everybody's phone number. Have you seen Larry? Hey, yeah, I saw him. Hey, send him home. Dinner's ready. That kind of a thing. And we'd be wanting, me and my friends, we'd wander miles away, miles away. And my parents would have no idea where it's at. And they were totally cool with

it. They never got bent out of shape about why were you down there? Why did you go down by that bridge? Why were you over on top of that hill? They never got bent out of shape about it at all. Maximum freedom. Any brothers and sisters? Yeah, I got a brother who's older and a sister who's older as well. I was the baby of the bunch. I used to think my parents, they tried one last chance to have another kid, found out that I was an accident. It wasn't planned at all. I was an accident. My dad was 50 when I was born. My mom was 36. Wow. Yeah. So they're basically, particularly my dad is old enough to be my grandfather. So he was 50 when I was born, my mom was 36. Wow. Yeah. So they're basically, particularly my dad is old enough to be my grandfather. So he was 50 and my mom was 36 when I was born.

Wow. Wow. So you what did what ages you start on the BB gun? Oh, man. If I had to guess, I'd say six. No, no, no, no. That's that not six, seven, probably about eight-ish, nine-ish. Eight? Yeah. Man, I got a son. He's three. And he's dying.

I'm dying to get him started. No, he doesn't have one yet. I mean, I'm airsoft or? No, he has a cork gun. Okay. Yeah. You know what I'm talking about? The old school, you pull the PVC pipe.

Yep. Yeah. I'm trying to teach him Weapons safety with that. It just it's just not having it. He's not having he's not dialed in yet No as he gets older more mature He'll get it So eight you started hunting With BB guns going on trying to shoot squirrel stuff like that How would you what was your relationship like with your parents? Good, you know, much closer with my mom and my dad, and I've told people this when they

ask these kind of questions. I don't ever remember, I knew my dad loved me, but I don't ever remember him telling me that one time, that hey Larry, I love you. My nickname was Jake, by the way. They both called me Jake. Still to this day, I have no idea why. But hey, Jake, hey, Jake, hey, Jake, that was my nickname. But I don't ever remember my dad saying, hey, I love you,

Jake, not one time. I knew he did. And honestly, now I'm pinned down. I don't know if my mom ever said it either. They just kind of- No, kidding. Yeah. They just kind of came from that era where it was kind of understood, we're putting a roof over your head, we're putting food in your stomach, we're putting clothes on your back, of course we love you.

That's where my head's at and why they were probably thinking that way, to be honest with. Interesting. Yeah. Nothing touches you feel like it to be honest with. Interesting. Yeah. Nothing touches you, feels like it is today. Nothing like that. Yeah. Why were you closer with your mom than your dad? Because she kind of babied me. You know what I mean?

I was just... She did. And the old classic thing, I had my mom kind of wrapped around my finger. If I needed something, I'd go to her and she would always give in and all. Yeah. So I, you know, I was a mama's boy. Gotcha. Gotcha. What I mean, what else were you into as a kid? How were you as a student?

Good. I was a classic B student. I could have been an A student with no problem, but to me, it was like, I'll put in enough effort to be a B student. I really don't want to put in that extra effort to be an A. If I got an A, it was almost by accident. If I got a C, it was kind of because I was half-ass in it, to be honest with you. But I was a classic B student.

I liked to play sports with my friends. Never really did organize sports very much at school, but we would play baseball and football and all. We'd play tackle football with no pads or any of that crap. I did that all the way through elementary school, junior high, and high school. We'd play tackle football with no pads. To us, it was kind of flag football and all that was kind of like, seriously? Why aren't you playing tackle football with no pads. To us it was kind of flag football and all that was kind of like seriously, why aren't you playing tackle football? But say I was in the sports and whatnot but from the point of view of playing with my friends, not necessarily organized sports at school.

Did your dad ever, or your mom, did they talk a lot about World War II? My dad a little bit, my mom really never did at all. It was only later I kind of asked her, so what did you do? She was all like worked at a factory, you know, Coshokton, Ohio, which is where I was born, probably 15, 20 miles up the road from where I grew up. And she, my mom is from there. You know, I worked in our, you know, a manufacturing facility in Coshokton that made artillery shells. And I didn't find that out till late in the game. And then my dad though would talk about it. He was in North Africa and Italy and he had some PTSD.

Really? Oh yeah, he sure did. How do you know? Because he would relate and start telling some stories about guys that had died and had been killed that he knew that were friends of his and stuff. And I remember him talking about that on occasion. Not a lot, but on occasion he would kind of almost ramble in a way.

And I'd listen to him, but he had PTSD, I mean, for sure. Absolutely. When did your, I guess, are your parents still with us? Oh, no. No, my dad died, he was 84, my mom was 77. And that date, my God, they died in the early 90s. Yeah, they've been passed away for quite a while now. Well I guess the reason I'm asking is I'm just curious, I mean, did you and your dad ever relate when you became a Delta operator?

A little bit. They never, I mean, they knew about me going into the army, obviously. I went in the army really because of my dad, that influence. I remember my dad one time specifically, I went in, I went to jump school and all that, and he said, Jake, he never flew on an airplane in his whole life. Wow. His whole life, he never flew on an airplane. Neither did my mom. Neither one of them flew on an airplane. So that was totally alien concept. And for me to jump out of an airplane, my dad said, he goes, Jake, I don't know how you do that. He goes, I don't know how you do that. That's something I just don't even know how you could do.

I remember him telling me that. He related to me going in the army, but there were some things that I was doing that he just couldn't, he couldn't comprehend. Yeah. Did your brother or sister join the service at all? My brother's actually on the autism spectrum pretty severe. My sister, she kind of got married early on. She went on and did some occupational therapy stuff.

Neither one of them were really interested in going into military at all. I was really the only one that, you know, my son, my brother couldn't, I mean, because it would be on the spectrum. There's no way he could have been in the military. My sister could have been in the military. My sister could have, but had no interest in it. So was your dad that got you interested in the military?

Yeah. Solely your dad, or was there any other inspiration? Mainly my dad, but you know, there were so many World War II vets in our little town. Almost all the grown men were World War II vets. I can't hardly think of any of them that weren't, that were my dad's age or kind of in that time frame. They were all World War II vets. My uncle was World War II and Korea. He'd served them both. My uncle, or Uncle Bill, Bill R, my uncle was World War II and Korea. So yeah, they were, that had an influence on me,

World War II in Korea. So yeah, they were, that had an influence on me. All those World War II vets for sure. Me playing army, which was my favorite game of course, of all time. Um, playing army as a kid, getting helmets and stuff like that. And going around with sticks, you know, sticks basically for you, you bent in the shape or you're snapping the shape of a gun. Um, but yeah, it was my, mainly my dad's influence in terms of that's really the number one reason I went into military.

It was my dad's influence. What about, I mean, the Vietnam war was going on at that time. Did that have any influence? Not really so much. I was still too young for that. Cause you know, Vietnam ended 70, early sevent ended early 70s. I was born in 1963. When it's ending, I'm seven, eight years old. So not really. Not really. If I'd have been older, 100%. 100%.

Pete Slauson How did you pick the army? Why did you pick it? Scott Jensen My dad was in the army, so right off the bat. And you'll love this. This is a great story. I was telling Scott about this on the way up here My dad always spoke highly of the Rangers always be really held the Rangers in high esteem put them on a pedestal So I thought well, I'm gonna go in the army and I'm gonna be a Ranger Right. Well, I went down the army recruiter and got a little pamphlet about combat arms. And it, you know, had, first one was infantry and then artillery, had airborne in there and all that,

Jasmine won rangers. Well, I know, I'm reading about the rangers, that's where I'm gonna go. Well, I noticed there's one, this is no lie, one more page. I'm like, hmm, I flip it open, special forces. What's this? I started reading about special forces. And then, you know, at the very end, they had me. I mean, I was hooked. It said, if you don't think you can make it,

don't even try because only the best can wear the green beret. And that was it. Dude, I was, I said, that's it. I'm going to be a green beret. I'm going to be special forces. At that point, their PR department worked on me. I mean, it worked like a champ. They wanted to snag somebody and they snagged me like a big dog. 100%. What did, what did, so you could go straight into it back then? At that time, yeah, they had what they called, informally, we called it the SF Baby Program. And they needed bodies because this is post-Vietnam, they needed people. So yeah, you could go straight in off the street right out of high school and go through

the Q course. A matter of fact, I graduated and I was 18 years old from the Q course. Oh, shit. Yeah, I was. For about, I graduated May 7th, 1982, and I turned 19 June 27th, 1982. Wow. Yeah, I was a Green Beret for about a month and a half before I turned 19. Holy shit. Yeah, 18 years old.

Didn't know anything, dude. I didn't know anything. In hindsight, that SF Baby program was stupid. They didn't have it for very long. I think they kind of realized this is dumb, and then they put parameters on it. You had to be in the army for a certain amount of time before you could try out for SF and all that kind of stuff, which made perfect sense. Because I got here on one SF team. I'm 19 years old. I didn't know anything. I mean, I got, I, you know, I'm, I'm curious about your thoughts on this. Cause I think that, I think the, didn't the SF baby, I think it came back.

I think they did. They call it the X-ray program, but you have some pretty serious parameters that you got to meet. I think you have to now I'm, don't hold me to this. I could be way off base, but I think he, one of the things that allows got to meet. I think you have to, now don't hold me to this. I could be way off base, but I think he, one of the things that allows you to go straight in is like two years of college. I think you have to be a certain age and whatnot, but I think it's called the X-ray program. So it did come back where, and I think it was a GWOT thing, I think. They wanted people, they needed

people, they wanted people. So it was a GWOT style effort that they brought in to get people in the special forces, the X-Ray programs. As far as I know, it's still in effect. Yeah. Well, when I joined, I mean, that's how I became a SEAL because I originally wanted to be forced recon. They wouldn't take me. Well, then Green Beret, my dad was in the army.

They wouldn't, you couldn't do it. You couldn't take me. Well, then green beret, my dad was in the army. They wouldn't, he couldn't do it. He couldn't get in. And then the, the Navy recruiter stuck his head out. It was like, Hey, I heard of the seals. And I was like, no, but, um, and they had the program, they had the, I can't remember what the Bud's challenge program or something like that seal challenge program, but I remember being in and I got, I joined, signed up at 17, waited until I was 18, shipped out. I did the same thing. I did that sign up at 17 between junior and senior, you know,

senior year, signed up at 17. So I had that one year where it was still worked in my favor for pay, even though of no rank. But I did the same thing. I signed up at 17. Well, I'm curious. I'm just curious about your thoughts because I go, I still think about it. I go back and forth and I remember the first time we worked with Green Berets with an SF team, we were in Panama and then we went out to Haiti in 2004 when Aristide got yanked out.

But I remember those guys just giving us all kinds of shit. Cause we were so young and, and yes, we were, especially me, a total immature fucking knucklehead. But, but I was a hard charger. And I always like back then, I always thought it was dumb to make people go to conventional units and then to come into special operations because, because I think that what am I trying to, you know, conventional units, they don't think like, like soft guys't and sometimes you can get

these guys in from a conventional unit especially in the Navy yeah because there's nothing there's no sure it's nothing else like it right and they come in and they bring what we call that fleet mentality and the very very chain of command very it's not like an open forum like what special operations is supposed to be now on the flip side of that if you don't send them out there then you do get a bunch of immature fucking knuckleheads and that could be hard to i can imagine that would be really hard to deal with but i mean so do you think that people should go to the To a regular MLS before joining special ops Or getting the opportunity to try out for special ops

Yes, and no I tell you if I'd had it to do over again And if I was gonna do it now, I'd go to the range of battalion first really. Yeah 100% 100% I found out once I got in That's really the route route I should have went. Why do you say that? Just because where my head was at. You know, SF, Green Berets, they're force multipliers, man. They go overseas. Let's face it, they go overseas and take a bunch of people and train them basic training and try to organize them into a fighting unit. I mean, that's

really force multiplier, nation building. That's their thing. As soon as I found out, I was like, dude, count me out. I had no desire to do that at all. No shit. Oh no. You didn't think that was cool at all? Not at all.

I had no desire. I wanted to be a pipe hitter from day one, bro. You just wanted to be an assault. I wanted to be a pipe hitter. And I knew in hindsight that ranger battalion path before I got in delta was a better path for me I knew it interesting yeah sometimes when it comes to spending money it's out of sight and out of mind that daily coffee habit those streaming subscriptions they add up quick rocket money helps you spot those

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Not at all. So for me, Ranger Battalion, what is a better path? Coming from conventional army in the SOF, that's a tough nut to crack. The good thing about it is if you've got a good selection program, you will weed out the people that don't need to be there. The people that don't think right, that aren't out of the box thinkers, you'll weed a bunch of those people out if you've got the right selection program. It's almost like a reprogramming for some of the guys. Yeah, 100%. You know?

Yeah. I don't know. But when you joined, I mean, what was going on in the world at the time? Were we in any conflicts? No. The big thing was, and it was a big impact on me, was Ronald Reagan.

Ronald Reagan, and when he came in and the motivation to basically become, you know, being an American was a good thing again. It was bad under Jimmy Carter, bro. It was bad. Things were not good. Akin to Joe Biden. Akin to Joe Biden. If I had to say two worst presidents that I've been around

without question, Biden, or I say I've been alive for, I should say, Biden and Jimmy Carter. It was not a good time in this country under Jimmy Carter. People were, it was a depressing time. Really? There was no pride in being an American. It was just, it was bad, dude. It just liked the Biden thing. I mean, case in point. If you want an analogy or kind of, hey, I want to be able to relate to that, just look at how it was under Joe Biden.

Not a good time. Ronald Reagan comes in, turns everything around. All of a sudden now it's great to be an American. You have pride in the country, building up the military. Ronald Reagan was the... My dad, of course, put the bug in my ear to go into military, but next to that was Ronald Reagan. Pete Slauson Your dad put the bug in you. Ron Reilly Yeah. Pete Slauson Through his stories or?

Ron Reilly Yeah, through just talking about the Rangers. I mean, I mean, my dad being in the military was a big piece of him who he was as a person, a real big piece. There was no way around it. And I, you know, so I got engulfed in that, so to speak, and him talking about the Rangers, how he held them in such high esteem. And I started looking into the Rangers and discovered Special Forces, Ronald Reagan coming in. So that's what was going on in my world when I went in. I graduated in 1981 and I went into the army like two weeks later.

Dude, people are like, aren't you going to hang out for the summer? I go, nope, I'm going in. Like two weeks after I graduated, I was in the army. Pete What did your dad say when you told him that you had enlisted? He was all for it. He had no issues at all. I remember him telling me one time, he said, Jake, I don't know what we're going to do here because I don't have money to send you to college. He was always a penny pincher. They kind of had the money, but they grew up during the Depression and one of those

things, so the major penny pincher, day old bread, and one of those deals. So I don't have the money to send you to college, but I said, Dad, don't worry about it, I'm going in the Army. I remember this exact conversation, I said, don't worry about it, I'm going in the Army. So he was totally cool with it. My mom, not so much. When the recruiter came by to pick me up, to take me to the processing station. She was crying. She was not real happy with it. But my dad had no issues with it at all. What did he say when you told him you were going to self? And I don't think he really knew what it was.

I don't think, I don't think he ever really absorbed what it was. Cause it was such an unconventional concept for him. I don't think he ever really knew. When I joined Delta, they told us, you need to tell your family now that you are in a special mission unit. You need, we don't want this to be a surprise to them. So I went home and I gave my mom and dad the bare bones. Hey, I'm in a special mission unit now, very highly specialized, very highly trained. And, you know, because they wanted you to tell them to let you know, hey, you're at risk for, you're much greater risk now of injury, getting killed, being deployed.

I mean, you're, I mean, you're basically the tip of the spear now in terms of the U.S. Army special operations. So I kind of told them the bare minimum. I could tell it just went right over their head. Wow. But I checked the block. I checked the block. I told my mom and dad about it. I told my family, my mom and dad. But yeah, my dad, I don't think ever really grasped what SF was all about. Never. No.

Does that bother you at all? Oh, no. No, not at all. Were they proud of you? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. 100%. Were they?

Do they know about Panama? Nah. Not really. Why not? I think I might have told them about it, but you know, for the longest time, dude, that Modelo prison thing was real hush-hush. I mean, big time. We didn't discuss it.

It's now decades later, of course. There's been a book written about it. There's in theory a movie coming out next year or whatever about it. So it's much more open source now, but boy, for the longest time, it was not discussed at all. It was real under the radar. Pete Slauson It doesn't bother you that they never really grasped the magnitude of what you were doing? John Sussman No, not really. I mean, they were – because like I said, by the time I got to that point they were old enough to be my grandparents yeah so

I didn't it didn't really didn't really bother me never really did fair enough they were cool with me being in the military they were proud but what I really did in the military they knew I was special I was in a special unit and that's about it gotcha so let's talk about leaving home. How was that for you? Leaving home and going in the Army? Yeah. I was all about it. By the time that came around, I was chomping at the bit to get on with going in the Army. Chomping at the bit. I remember other people's parents would say,

Oh, as soon as you're out of high school, you wish you were back in. And I was like, I've never felt that. I never felt it when I left. I didn't feel it when I was in the army. I was like, are you kidding me? I don't want to go to high school anymore. I'm done with that. I want to get on with life. So I was all about it. A hundred percent. Didn't, you know, miss my friends. Yeah. But I'd see them when I'd come home on leave and whatnot. But other than that, dude, I was 100%. Like I said, I wanted to be a pipe hitter from day one. You wanted to go to war.

Oh, I wanted to strap it on. So we'll breeze through the boot camp stuff. Let's talk about your selection. SF. That's great. You know, we were talking about this earlier. I you know kind of had some questions pop up Honestly, it wasn't very hard Really? No, it wasn't you know what you're gonna laugh at this

You know what? The hardest thing was was the swim test We're what was it serious test if I remember correctly was the swim test. What was the swim test? If I remember correctly, 15 meters with fatigues and boots, web gear, and a rubber duck M16. And see, when I was growing up, I didn't swim very often. I really didn't. We didn't have, and I certainly didn't

have access to a swimming pool. I just didn't swim very often. It just wasn't that big of a thing. And I kind of went into the swim test, little bit nervous, but not really understanding what I was getting into. And when I got in that water and started swimming with fatigues and boots on and that web gear and a weapon,

dude, it was scary. I was floundering big time. You could ditch the weapon and still pass. I ditched it immediately. And I was frantically trying to get down to 15 meters. I, that is without a doubt, the hardest thing that I dealt with going through the special forces qualification course. I, and I passed the swim test, but barely, dude.

No shit. So that was probably at the very beginning too. Oh yeah, it was. 100%. What else did you do in there? Well, we went to phase one, which at that time, because they changed it after I went through. It's changed so much over time. That's one of the dings on the Special Forces Qualification course is they haven't had a

lot of continuity. But we did land navigation, we did survival, and they had basically, they tried to weed out the people who didn't want to be there. You know what I mean? The people that couldn't cut it. So we had some physical stuff to weed them out. Land navigation, survival were two big things that we had in phase one. Did some other stuff like rappelling, some stuff like that. We did it out at Camp McCall out in North Carolina near Fort Bragg, famous for special operations or special forces in particular. I used to know how many guys started and how many guys finished, but when special for, and you know, when I went to the Q course, I do remember this. There were 13 guys that came from jump school that were SF babies. Only two of us finished. Really? Yeah. 11 guys. Now I got to caveat that

Two of us finished. Really? Yeah. Eleven guys. Now, I got to caveat that. A couple of them are probably medics who break off for the medic course, which took quite a while longer. And then they come back in and finish the Q course. So there may have been a couple of them or whatever, medics that did in fact pass, but

they didn't finish with me. So I lost situational awareness with them. But out of the guys I knew, 13, only two of us finished. Or two of us put on a green beret. What happened after phase one? Phase two was small arms training because I was a light weapon specialist. So we started doing, we also did some heavy weapons stuff, mortars, anti-tank weapons and stuff like that, but it was mainly light weapons stuff was, you know, was phase two.

I got a good story for you. Before I went in, I knew I was going to be a light weapons specialist. So I got these books, Combat Arms and Small Arms of the World, and I would just absorb them. Looking at pictures, reading about the guns and everything like that. And I really would study the designs and the parts on them and all that kind of stuff. Instructor came in when we were doing the disassembly and assembly classes and we were on break.

Came back in. Instructor goes, hey, I got a part right here that somebody left out in the parking lot. If you can tell me what it is and what it's for, I'll carry a rucksack on the next rucksack march. And I saw it and immediately raised my hand. And he's, what is it? And I go, select or switch for a Thompson submachine gun. He goes, wrong. And as soon as he said it, I went, dumb ass, I know what it is and that ain't it. What an idiot.

And then a couple of guys guessed and everything. I raised my hand again, raised my hand again and he goes, you already guessed. I go, no, I know what it is this time. And he goes, what is it? I go, selector switch for an FNFL. Dude, his jaw hit the floor. How did you know that? Just keep in mind, I'm 18 years old.

Yeah. And he goes, how did you know that? And I told him the same thing you and I did. I got these gun books, I studied the pictures, read about them, absorbed them. And sure enough, the dude, the next, whenever we did the rucksack march again, next day or whenever, he carried my rucksack.

Oh shit. Oh yeah. I walked alongside him the whole way. Were you the youngest guy in the class? Yeah, one of the youngest. Pretty close. Pretty damn close, yeah. I think I might have been. That kind of rings a bell that I was in fact the youngest guy in the class, but I know

I was certainly one of the youngest for sure. What was your opinion of your colleagues that were going through? Oh, you know what's interesting? There was a guy named King that I went, he was the other guy who finished with me and he was a dumpy looking dude. If you saw him and you say,

hey, by the way, he just finished the Q course and he's now a Green Beret, he'd be like, what? Get the hell out of here. So you classic case, you cannot judge a book by its cover, bro. And he came, I was in jump school with him, became good friends with him, because I went all the way through the cue course with him.

And he's the other dude between the 13, me and him, another guy finished that was King. Totally unassuming dude. Unassuming dude. Unassuming dude. I mean classic case of, you know, don't underestimate people because this guy right here will prove you wrong. I mean I'm just curious, I mean you're one of the youngest guys in the class. You're in a premier unit, you know, at the tip of the spear. It's exactly what you wanted. I mean the advertising said don't try if you don't think you're going to make it. You won't. I mean, so what was that like

for you being 18 years old going through SFQ course? Well, there was guys I really looked up to that I was in the class with. Majority of them came from the range of time. Major majority of them came from the Ranger Battalion. The guys I really hit it off with, I mean, I really looked up to them. They were studs. I really, really liked them. I really looked up to them, got along with them great, and they were all guys from the Ranger Battalion.

All of them. At what point did you realize you should have gone Ranger? Probably part way through phase three, especially after phase three and I got assigned to a team. Because phase three was where we're now we're going out and interfacing with gorillas. And we're going to start training them to become a cohesive fighting unit. And now we're doing that nation building thing and all

that jazz. That's where phase three comes in. And that's when I kind of started going, this isn't really what I signed up for. This is really not what I want to do. And so it had been phase three. And then when I got to a team and it became crystal clear what we're really signed up to do, I was like, dude,

this isn't at all what I do. Here's another good one. We were in desert training out in Fort Huachuca, Arizona. We were in desert training when Grenada went down. And we heard about it. And me and a couple of the younger guys were pissed. Because we were like, wait a minute, we're supposed to be so elite. Super elite, super elite green

berets. Why the hell aren't we down there? And then the guys were like, well, that's not our mission. That's not what we're all about. And dude, that was, that was kind of the final straw for me. Done. When that went down. Cause I thought, wait a minute, we're supposed to be so elite, you know, we're the super

elite military unit in the U S army. Why the hell are we there? There's guys going to combat right now. Why aren't we there? And that did not set well with me at all and other guys in the on the team too. What was so when you say phase three is nation building, can you walk us through some of that? We jumped in to it.

We went through Uari. We went through Uwari. We did it in Uwari National Forest, not too far from Fort Bragg, by the way. We jumped in and then we would start linking up with the guerrillas, which are generally guys from the 82nd. They would bring out 82nd guys to act as guerrillas for the SF teams. So we'd interface with them. There was a bona fides. We had to, you know, hey, this is who we are. This is who you are, yada, yada, yada. We'd go into their gorilla camp. They'd be very standoffish initially because

they don't trust us, that kind of a thing. Then we'd have to prove ourselves to him. They had one classic scenario where the grill leader wants to execute one of his guys because the guy, whatever, got out of line, slept with somebody's wife, whatever the scenario was. And the detachment commander had to deal with that and try to talk him out of it. And then never flew, by the way, you know, that was part of the scenario. So the guerrilla leader went out, you know, out a little ways and, you know, fired off a blank and that dude left. And so he was essentially dead for the rest of the exercise. So that was, they purposely put the leadership in that kind of a situation to see how they'd react, the officers, because they were held to a much higher standard, as you can imagine, because they're going to leave and

go straight to an A-Team and now they're the commander on an A-Team. Whereas I go and I'm a junior weapon sergeant. I'm down here, this guy's a, he's a commanding officer, he's the A-Team leader. So they would hold him to a much higher standard. So then we would go through the process with him, we would train with him. I gave him small arms training. They would get some demolition training, stuff like that. And then we would kind of start to integrate with them

and they'd start to trust us in that whole nine yards. About a two week program out in the field from when we jump in to when we're done. Gotcha. So you get through phase three, graduate, you go to a team. I went to a team. Here's the thing now. We should have went to language training.

It was an option, but it was for guys who volunteered. I didn't volunteer because I didn't realize the importance of it. You know what I mean? Nobody sat me down and said, Hey dude, you need to go to a language course. You got to learn a language. This is a critical thing. I went through kind of that post Vietnam era where the Q course was like I told you, it really wasn't that difficult. It was kind of a shit, a little bit of a shit show, bro. It really was. Nobody sat you down and said, hey, look, you need a language skill. You need a language skill set here. You need to go take a language, whatever it might have been, German, Spanish, whatever the flavor that might have been,

but you need to go take a language. Now, I want to say, and I could be wrong, but I'm pretty damn sure for the longest time now, language is mandatory. I believe it is. Yeah. You got to go take a language, which is what it should be. So it's kind of lip service back then. Yeah. You know, they would, they'd have what they call these Gabriel detachments or Gabe team. I don't know if you ever heard of,, they do these demonstrations about a Special Forces A team and they have a guy stand up and talk about, yeah, I can speak German. The guy would recite a line in German or Russian, I can speak Russian or German,

I have a working knowledge of Spanish. It was all bullshit. It was all smoke and mirrors. What team did you wind up going to? Went to 521 in fifth group, special forces group, which was a Halo team. So I went to Halo school and sniper school and I was 19 years old. Holy shit. Yeah. Yep. I was in the team. I got there, turned 19. Within that year, I went through sniper school and the Halo school.

Both. I was 19 years old and the Halo qualified and went to sniper school. I got a certificate of attendance at sniper school. only one of us graduated because we had M21s and the scope mount sucked. They would take the scopes off, put them in one case, put the rifle in another case, and they'd go back to the arm room. Come back out to qualify, to shoot, to essentially hone your skills with the rifle. Take the scope out of the case, bolt it back on, you screw it back on the rifle.

Oh yeah, dude, straight up. Screw it back on and you're out there. Course zero's off. It's for shit. Yeah. So I got a certificate of attendance and there was only one guy who actually graduated the course. The rest of us got certificate of attendance.

It was because of the marksmanship part of it. How was Halo? Scary dude. I was scared. I mean, as time went on, I got comfortable, but boy, that first jump, I was scared. I was wet bread on the first jump. I was scared. I was wet bread on the first jump. The instructor brought me and the other guy who jumped with me over and he goes, I'm going to tell you what. It was like a Friday. He goes, I'm going to tell you what. Next jump was Monday. He goes, you

got one more chance. After that, I'm going to have to let you go. I had, dude, I sweated it the whole weekend. Lost sleep, was, you know, working on my positioning the whole nine yards. Come Monday, I jumped much better past the other dude. They cut him loose. Damn. Yeah. Yeah. So you get on the team. Yeah, got on the team. You know, how was that? How is that showing up to an SF team at 19 years old? Well, yeah, but you know, here's the thing. Once again, post-Vietnam, two or three guys on the team smoked marijuana fairly regularly,

which really turned me off right off the bat. I was like, are you serious? What is this all about? You know what I mean? that's before they clamped down and Really cleaned up the military for Frank drug use and smoking marijuana. They were really cleaned it up one of the best things they ever did Huge benefit. Yeah, there's guys on there, you know smoking dope on a regular basis and stuff I was like and you know kind of that post Vietnam era thing. And it was, I got along with some of the guys on the team, other guys like the dope smokers,

I never clicked with those guys at all. I just didn't see where that was coming from. Partially I was a teetotaler, coming from my mom. My mom basically read me the riot act one time in the backyard, but I don't want to ever hear you smoking drinking nothing I was like, okay mom sure will I Never did I mean it seems like there will be a lot of guys to look up to and a shit ton of Experience on the team being post-vietnam like that not so much bro Really? Yeah. No not so much because a lot of those guys were gone. They'd left It's kind of almost like some of the guys that stayed behind,

they didn't leave because they didn't have anywhere else to go. There just wasn't a lot of real serious pipe hitters to look up to. No kidding. Yeah, no. It was kind of a mess, bro. That early 80s SF thing, not real impressive. Interesting. Yeah.

So what did you do? Not real impressive. Did you wind up deploying with them or? No. Matter of fact, never jumped free fall on the team. The only time I ever jumped free fall was in Halo school. Never one time did I jump on the team free fall. Not one time.

Wow. Yeah. That's what I'm telling you. So what did you guys do? You tell me. How long were you there? I ended up being on the team two years. It basically took me a year to get through training.

I was on that Q course and all that, not counting Halo School and Sniper School, on the team for two years. And then they were open up first group and Fort Lewis. And I got levied to go. They said, you got to go. I didn't volunteer. And I said, Hey, I want to go. They said, you got to go. So I went up there for a year. I had a four year stint, more or less a year to get through training, two years on the team including sniper school and halo school, and then I went up to Fort Lewis for a year. What sealed the deal for me was when I went up there, they made me the armor, the Union armor.

I showed up, went into the battalion sergeant major's office and he goes, hey, Sergeant Vickers, blah, blah, blah, nice for you coming, nice to meet you, whatever. And he goes, I'm probably not going to hear this, but I'm going to make you the unit armorer. And I was like, Sergeant Major, he has manning board here, the teams and everything. I go, you know, I'm Halo qualified. I'm a weapon sergeant who's Halo qualified. And I see you got a guy listed right here who's not Halo qualified on the Halo team a weapon sergeant He goes well. I know I understand that but I've already promised him the slot and all that kind of and right then I was like

Yeah, I'm done. I was watching the clock till I could get out in a year. No shit. Yep. So So you were on a team for two years and you guys didn't deploy into anything? Oh no. What, I mean, what was the, what was the lifestyle? I tell you, you ever heard a deal about picking up pine cones? No. You ever heard that? No.

Oh, yeah bro. We would get detached to go do stuff like stuff on the post, like pick up pine cones. Are you f- I'm serious as cancer. And you know, 82nd would be doing it, special force, green berets would be doing it, but yeah, that's that. Yeah. I'm doing, uh, yeah.

Fort Bragg post cleanup. And that, that would cycle through through, not all the time, but you would get that. Hey man, we gotta go pick up pinecones. And you would get on what they called a cattle car, which was essentially a big open cattle car, for lack of a better term. And you'd get hauled out somewhere

and you'd have to police up the range or I swear to God, pick up pinecones. I mean, that's where the mentality was at. Wow. I mean, we didn't even have vehicles. Like if you had to go over to the hospital or the dental clinic or something like that, you had to take your personal vehicle.

You didn't have a team vehicle or anything like that or a vehicle in the company. In order to, in function, you had to. It wasn't like you had an option. You had to take your personal vehicle to get over to do stuff like that. Wow. Nothing changed over at first? No. No, first was a mess too, a hot mess. What'd you do over there? I was an armorer. The only thing we did, we deployed to Korea once. I deployed as the armorer.

And we deployed to Korea once, went in the soul, had a good time and all that jazz, but that's all we did. So this is like miserable for you. Oh yeah. And that, remember I was telling you about, really realized I should have went in the Ranger Battalion? It's stuff like this. Wow. Yep. What a disappointment. Oh, totally. Total disappointment. How many years did you spend in SF? Well, I got out. I got out after four years.

I said, I'm out of here. I got out, went back home, went to college, went to a community college for mechanical engineering to get a mechanical engineering associates degree. Because my thought process was, I'll get a mechanical engineering degree and then I'll get into firearms industry. I'll go to work for somebody, FN, HK, whatever. I was really big in FN at the time. So I really, that's kind of what I was, I want to get a mechanical engineering degree

and I want to go to work for FN. So that's why I got out to do that. You got out the first opportunity you had. Oh yeah. Just three years I'm out. You know and then I was talking to Scott on the way up here. There was only three options at that time. Get out, which most guys did.

Well actually four. And we used to talk about this you get out which most guys did stay in Which means you're not changing anything you become part of the problem You're signing on to become part of the problem. You're not gonna change anything You're like I'm willing to live with this horse shit and stay in three Go be a pilot in the military somewhere chopper pilot I know one guy left went to the Air Force to be a pilot in the military somewhere. Chopper pilot, I know one guy left,

went to the Air Force to be a pilot. Last, try out for Delta. So you knew about Delta. Oh yeah. Why didn't you try out? You know, it's a good question. I'm not sure. You were worried it would be the same?

Well, no, I didn't think I'd make it because that's the option that had the least success rate, as you can imagine. And I met numerous guys that tried out. I did not know a single guy that made it. I wanted it. Until right at the very end, I was getting ready to get out of the army.

One of the guys went and made it and dude you can imagine when he came back you want to talk about a guy who walked on water so I knew one guy that tried out and everybody talked about how difficult it was everybody so I honestly I didn't think I could do it. But that planted a seed that never went away. I got out, went to college. I was in reserves. When I was in college, I signed up for the reserves. I was in the 11th group up in Youngstown, Ohio. I'd go up there once a month, enjoyed it.

We didn't do shit. We never jumped out of an airplane the entire time I was there, two years. I had a good time with the guys and everything, but guys in the reserves at that time are National Guard. They really needed to get away from the wife for the weekend and go hang out with their buddies. That's all it was. The training and everything was kind of a joke.

They didn't really put their heart and soul into it. It was, hey, I want to get away from the wife for a weekend, so I'm going to head out. I'm in the Reserves or National Guard. Did you keep in touch with the guy that made it through? No. I saw him later on, no. Saw him later on when I got into the unit. He was in V squadron, he was an alcoholic and got more than one

DUI. And at that time, they let you slide on one or two. Now, as time went on, you didn't slide at all. But they let him slide on one or two. And when he got another one, he's like, dude, you can't, you gotta go. Interesting. Yeah, he was an alcoholic. Stud, dude was an animal. He was an animal in SF, legendary dude, but he was an alcoholic.

Well Larry, let's take a quick break. Sure. And when we come back we'll pick up with you getting back in and going to the unit. Alright. to your door in just a few days without ever leaving home. Their alive and thrive guarantee ensures your plants arrive happy and healthy. Plus get support from trained plant experts on call to help you plan your landscape and learn how to care for them.

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Try ZipIntro for free at ziprecruiter.com slash SRS. Again, that's ziprecruiter.com slash SRS. ZipIntro. Post jobs today, talk to qualified candidates tomorrow All right, Larry we're back from the break you got out Went to college Why'd you go back in I? Just never they always that

Just that nagging feeling in the back of my mind about could I make Delta? Could I do it? Because to me, I mean, they were the ultimate pipe hitters to me. I mean, coming from the Army point of view, I mean, that was it. And I knew it. Could I do it? And it just never went away. And I came to that fork in the road. It's like, okay, I'm going to be done here with my associate's degree in mechanical engineering soon.

I'm gonna have to decide, am I going to stay on this path, get my mechanical engineering degree, four-year degree, and then go into the firearms industry? Or am I going to go back in and try out for Delta? Now, this is before you could try out from the Reserves or National Guard. And I got, there was a guy, a captain actually, who kind of coached me and gave me some info. He had tried out for Delta. He ended up coming to my Reserve unit in Youngstown, Ohio, and he had notes and stuff. I want to say he even had the address for the CSM, or the Sergeant Major in charge of selection at Delta. And I wrote a letter to him and said, hey, I'd like to try out. How can I do it? I'm in the reserves right now." And he wrote back and said, you have to enlist in the Army. We don't have a mechanism for you to try out from the National Guard of the Reserves.

So I remember going, oh man, this is a big deal here, dude, because I'm getting ready. If I'm going to do this this at one long shot to make it long shot number two I'm signing up for another four years back in the SF which I disliked So I remember talking to my friends I you know, I say hey man, this is what I'm thinking about doing and they were all like dude They were all like man, I don't know. I said, you know what though? I got it.

It's just one of those, I've got to scratch this itch or it's just never going to go away. So I decided, you know, I'm going to do it. I'm going to go back in specifically to try out for Delta Force. That's why I went back in. How long after you went back in, did you get to try out? Um, six months.

Six months. Yeah. Six months after I went back in. So let me think about when I went in. September. Yeah. Six months, six, eight months for, I didn't make it the first time. You didn't. No, I did not.

I over-trained real bad. Cause when I was No, I did not. I over trained real bad. Because when I was out, me and a buddy would lift weights a lot and we got pretty big. And I knew all about over training, bro. I knew all about it. And I'd over trained real bad. I trained like a madman right up until I left for selection. So my body was tore down. I mean, you know what I mean?

And you ain't going to roll in the selection with a tore down body and think you're going to get your way through it. I mean, at least I didn't. I wasn't able to do that. So I didn't make it the first time. Second time though, I fell back. And I went, you know what? I'm going to learn from my mistake.

I'm going to, two weeks out, I'm going to learn from my mistake. I'm going to two weeks out, I'm going to rest up. I'm not going to do any PT at all. I'm going to make sure I'm a hundred percent rested up. And I was going to skip, you know, I was going to skip a selection and I went to the spring, didn't make it. I was going to skip fall and end up going to the next spring. But I got back and I started thinking about it, you know? Nah, dude, I'm going to the fall.

What was it like when you failed the first time? Well, I voluntarily withdrawed. I said, yeah, I did. And I wouldn't have done that if I didn't realize how close it, because normally they don't let you come back if you voluntarily withdraw. Normally you're done. I didn't know that until I got the exit interview with the, uh, the

selection officer and selections are major. And he's like, why'd you voluntarily withdraw? And I said, I, I over-trained real bad. And they're like, explain that. And one of those types of things, I go, well, you know they're like, explain that. One of those type of things. I go, well, you know, my body was tore down. I know why I was, you know, the mistake I made. If, you know, when I come back,

I'm not gonna make it again. And they're like, okay, okay, we'll let you come back. And I was like, whoa. I was that close. Wow. Wow them saying you ain't coming back I fight a new man I would have just stuck it in there how I mean How long did you go before you voluntarily withdraw? Stress day one or two early on oh shit, so right away almost yeah, I mean I went through the training part You know the train up per se,

the land navigation train up and then when I got into stress phase it was early on, day one or day two and I knew I was just tore down man. Could I have gutted it out and made it? I don't know, I just can't tell you I could have. Maybe. Maybe, a big maybe, but I said you know I just can't do this and I voluntarily withdraw and dude that no man I I was like my god did I dodge a bullet because it was just basically they could it's almost like flipping a coin and they could have went either way we're like okay we're gonna let you come back. I was like, Whoa, what do you think? Because I thought it'd be like automatic. Okay, over trained. Okay, here you go. We'll see you next time. Yeah, man. That's what I thought.

I mean, what is it that you think you have that they wanted to allow you to come back? I, I think on paper, because they give you a psych eval, they do, you know, they're testing and before you ever go. Mm-hmm. So, I mean, I say psych eval, you fill out this paperwork, they go through this pretty serious process before you ever go. And I think I was, they looked at it and said, this guy is a really good candidate for making.

And because after being in the unit and kind of knowing the process, they have their eye on different people. No shit. Oh yeah. They're like, yeah, this guy's a high percentage guy, low percentage, and then they'll start cutting and chopping. Okay, we're not going to bring him because he's not, we're not seeing the indicators. We're not seeing the key things we need here to bring him up to this

category, to bring him selection. The, the rule of thumb is that they, they bring in 250 applications and they whittle it down to a hundred. I mean, my case was 88, 88 dudes at roughly 250 applications, but there are, you know, they'll be made some disciplinary stuff. There's gonna be different things on there. They go, no, this guy's. Or, you know, a guy's from, you know,

we used to talk about it. You know, when you're going to recruit, why are you going to Fort Hood and these different places where the chances of you finding a guy that's gonna make it is almost zero. And they go, well, we're looking for that one guy. And they go, you know, if we really wanted to get down to it, we'd only go to the SF groups and Ranger Battalions.

That's it. That's the only place. This is back in the day before they would recruit from the SEALs or the Marines or whatnot. But that was way before that era. They go, yeah, we would just go to the Ranger Battalions and SF groups. That's it. Because that's your higher percentage guys that are going to make it. But if there's one guy that comes out of Fort Hood, we want him. I'm like, okay.

But yeah, I was that close to not being able to, but that's my call. They, you know, on paper that they were like, Hey, this guy's a high percentage chance of making it. Yeah. That's my call. And so you go back. Yeah. I go back Germany, I was stationed in Germany at Bad Toltz.

I don't know if I told you that or not, which was a superb place to train for selection. Superb. Because we had some real serious hills behind us. Real serious. And once a month, maybe every once a couple weeks, I would, I would ruck march all the way up this. And I've long since forgot the name of the hill. It was big.

And I would mark match all, ruck march all the way up, down and back down, all the way of the hill. It was big. And I would markmatch all the way up, down and back down, all the way to the top and then back down in a superb place to try out, to train up for selection with bad torch Germany. I mean, superb. So I went back, decided, you know, I'm not going to skip. And there's a good reason. I'm glad I didn't. We'll get to that here later. But I'm glad I didn't skip that selection and go to the next spring. I'm glad I went to that fall. And they came out and I want to say, they came out and did a PT test just for me at Bad Tolts.

Yeah, actually I know for a fact that's what they did. I did the PT, they came just because I was the only guy that said, hey, I want to go. And they're like, okay. And they came and gave me a PT test to try out. And they came by them, you know, I was the only guy. That bad tolt's trying out. What, did you remember what the PT test was?

That was a standard Army PT test. Okay. Yeah, at that time. Gotcha. Yeah, we didn't do. Yeah, at that time. Gotcha. Yeah, we didn't do a swim test at that time. That one, that's when you did a swim test at selection. Okay. When you got to Camp Dawson in West Virginia.

But it wasn't a swim test. It was just a standard Army PT test, push-ups, sit-ups, and two mile run. You had minimum standards you had to pass in order to go and they were pretty low. I mean you go where they have to be up here and they're like no you know we're gonna let you pass though you know and then it's back on you. You're the one who has to step up to the plate and get a better PT test score. I mean that was the thing about Delta

selection is they always put it back on the individual They're not gonna spoon feed you anything. It's they're just gonna put it back on you and see how you deal with it How you're gonna respond how you're gonna adapt? Overcome it's all on you They all put everything on you. So what was it like the second time? dude, I kicked ass My head was where it needed to be. Like I said, two weeks out, you know, I didn't do any PT for two weeks, which drove me crazy.

I'm not going to lie, it drove me crazy because I was a PT animal, as you can imagine, getting ready for selection. Two weeks out I completely stopped doing PT, I rested. The whole nine yards I told my team sergeant what I'm doing. He's like, okay, I didn't have to do PT with the team. Nothing like that. I rolled in and dude, I was on my A game and I fucking nailed it. What is it like when you first show up? First show up, you get in, you know, you bring in, they give you more testing. You get more evals. They're kind of honing it down. Initially, it was a big broad brush type of coarse screen.

Now they're getting you in the smaller. They're going to dial things in where they can get a better handle on what you are like as a person, what you think they're going to dial things in where they can get a better handle on what you are like as a person what you think they're going to be like as a Delta Force soldier, Delta Force operator and they're going to dial you in. Then you do a PT test again. You do another PT test. Day one, once the things get going, do a PT test, standard army PT test, push-up set

up, two mile run, then you do a swim test, 100 meters fatigues and boots, which you can't buff your way through that. You better know how to swim or you're not going to make it. And I knew that. So I trained up over and over and over and it got to the point where I could, I timed myself. I swam an hour in fatigues and boots. Cause I learned how to do it, not fight the fatigues and boosts, just go with the flow. You know what I'm talking about. And so did a swim test and then that night,

18 mile rucksack march. So one day, day one PT test, swim test, 18 mile rucksack march. Holy shit. If you don't make the cut on any of them, you're gone. I take that back. They will give you a retest on the PT test. Memory serves me correct, no retest on the swim test,

no retest on the 18 mile. But they will the very next day, they'll give you a retest on the 18 mile. But they were the very next day they'll give you a retest on the PT test. And you can imagine, I knew one guy that passed that, was able to pass it the next day that didn't pass it the day prior. Which you kind of go, how was that? But he did, he passed it the second day,

but he didn't pass it the day prior. The average guy, it's going to be impossible. After you've done it the first day, but he didn't pass it the day prior. The average guy, it's going to be impossible after you've done it the first day, failed, done the swim test pass, and did the 18-miler and passed. You try to make up the PT test the next day, and it ain't going to happen. Is the 18-miler, is that a land navigation thing too? No, just the rucksack march on roads. Okay. Through hilly terrain.

Through hilly terrain. Very hilly terrain. How were you treated? Totally no encouragement, no discouragement at all through the whole course. And they did that on purpose to try to get you, then once again, they put it all back on you. They don't want it like, hey man, good job. You know what I mean? Or, hey dude, you got to pick up the pace. None of that kind of stuff. It was, you could walk in, I used to tell people you could walk in with a broken leg and they go color and number.

And you'd have to have a color and you know, they give you at the beginning of the day, they give you a color and number. So you'd have to remember, you know, chart two is 43 chart two is 43. Show me where you're at and where you came from. Because it's all in that based through serious hilly terrain. It's like a buddy of mine said, there aren't mountains there, but there's some damn big hills. And that's the truth. Camp Dawson is surrounded by damn big hills. So you're doing land navigation, and it's like, show me where you're at.

Show me where you came from. And you show them, came from here, came from here. And you got to show them the right thing on the map. You can't, if the guy got it wrong, you go over there, reassess where you came from. And you got, oh, I came from here, Sergeant, I'm right there. Okay.

Your next point's underneath that rock and you'd have a little, you know, laminated piece of, you know, you have something laminated and you flip it over and you write down where you're at, you plot it on the map and you go up, you know, you'd say, come on up, chart 243, come on up, show me where you're at, where you're at, you plot it on the map, and you go up, you know, you say, come on up, chart two's 43, come on up, show me where you're at, where you're going. I'm here, I'm going here, have a good one. And that cycle repeated over and over and over again, and you don't know how long.

You don't know how much time you got to get from point A to point B, and you don't know how many points you're going that day. So each point is timed? Yeah, oh yeah. It's not the full course? No, each point is timed. The full course is essentially the time but you don't really know, you don't really know where exactly you're going. No. You might have four points one day, you might have six points the next day. How long does this last? Six days. And then on the seventh day, you do the 40 mile. This is stress phase.

Okay. We talked about the PT test, swim test, 18 mile. Now after that, you get into basically for lack of a better term, the training phase. They're going to teach you how to do land navigation. And the reason they did that used to be back in the day, you'd have a better term, the training phase. They're going to teach you how to do land navigation. And the reason they did that used to be, back in the day, you just went right into stress phase. But they found out this isn't fair, because there's guys who would probably make it

that don't know how to do it. They've never had land navigation training. So they would put you through 10 days to two weeks-ish, more or less 10 days, of the best land navigation training in the US Army. It has to be the best land navigation in the US military, probably in the world. I mean, magnificent land navigation training.

You had cadre living, cadre-led land navigation, it was just magnificent. Really, really good. Map reading, dead reckoning, you go around the hills, mountains, all that kind of, it was just really, really good training. It was superb. But it was also kind of grinding you down. So everybody kind of got to a certain level. You have a stud or whatever. He's not going to be 100% going into stress because you're going through the same hills, rocky terrain, twisting your ankle,

that kind of stuff. So it's kind of taking even the studs and grinding them down a bit. So when they get ready to do stress phase, they're not on their A game. If they're lucky, they're on their B minus game. Gotcha. And then you start stress. What's stress? Stress phase is that six days with the seventh day being a 40 mileer. And you stay out in the woods in a tent in the environment.

You're eating MREs. You know, you get at the end of the day, you'll get in these trucks or Humvees. At the time I did it, it was trucks and you don't know where you're going. The guys who don't make it that day go back to Camp Dawson. The guys that make it for that day pass, they go to the base camp and they put up their tent

and you eat your MREs and then you crash out and they tell you what time you got to be up. It's on you. They're not going to wake you up in the morning. You got to be, you know, you got to get yourself up. You got to put away all your gear and you got to be standing by ready to go when the trucks come in to pick you up and take you. Then they take you back out to another point and they, you know, chartreuse 43 or they're going to give you a different color and number that day. Vickers, you know, purple one, two, truck number three. And I jump on and I have to remember purple, you know, one, two. That's my color number for that day.

And then you go out and they bring out purple one,. Your points over there, you go over the same thing. You take it out. This is where I'm at. This is where I'm going, man. Show me what you got. This is where I'm at. This is where I'm going. I'm going.

Have a good one. That's the only encouragement you're going to have a good one. That's it. And the 40-mile process. The 40-miler now, before I get to that, there were people that didn't finish one day that still made the process. The 40-miler, now, before I get to that, there were people that didn't finish one day that still made the course. And you're like, how can that be? My call is, and by the way, the standards are the holy grail of the unit. There's only a handful of people that have ever known the standards. I mean, they are, that is

the deepest, darkest secrets in that organization. I was in the unit for 15 years and I had no idea what the standards were. I could guess, but I had no idea. Only when you got to a certain point, like the commander or the command sergeant major or you're the selection commander or selection sergeant major would you be read in on the tea leaves. So there's only really two people that make the determination if you fit the standard. Yes. Really, yes. Even the cadre there don't have the standard.

They have no idea. Oh, shit. Oh, they have no idea. None. You call in the times, you know, purple three two Vickers, you tell them what time he got here. He, you know, arrived at 1215. You know, he left at 1232.

So does that mean it's solely based off of time? Because that to me, that means there's a gray area. What do you mean? But to me, that means there's a gray area. What you mean? I mean, you had mentioned that there are people that didn't maybe make the time, but they still got in. Yeah, here's Michael. So if nobody knows the time, it's be, I mean, I would, I understand why the, the, the guys

trying out would not understand the time, but for the cadre did not know the time and only two people, it sounds like four out of all of the unit knows the time that there's a gray area there were, they may have identified somebody that they want that made. No, I never did that. Never did that. I know what you're talking about. Never happened. They were Nazis about it, bro. I mean, wouldn't somebody figure that out? They would only select certain people to be the selection office, you know,

selection commander or selection major. There was only certain people that did that. That was not something where they just randomly come down to a squadron. All right, dude, you come on up to S and T, you're going to be the... No, no, no. You were handpicked. Handpicked. And you had a track record in the unit. You'd been in the unit for a long time. No, no, no, no. I'm sorry. That's not what I meant. That's not where I was going. What I meant was for the selection, for the guys going through selection, if nobody knows the time, then time is obviously important, but they may identify

something in a, what would you call them? A trainee? The guys going through selection. Yeah. Um, candidate. A candidate. So they would, they may identify a candidate that doesn't meet the time standard, but they like

everything else about it. Oh yeah, no, wouldn't matter. If you doesn't mean the time standard, but they like everything else about oh Yeah, now wouldn't matter if you don't meet the time standard you could be a rock star and it wouldn't matter Well, how would nobody how would nobody I'm just general. It's a genuine question I'm not like poking holes in and I'm just trying to understand I mean, how would how would more people not figure out what the time is if you could just go through the times and go, that guy made it, that guy, obviously it's under X time. The thing is, all you had was, the only information you had as a cadre was your little small vision of the world.

You didn't see the whole, you didn't see him at this point, this guy at this point, this guy. So they compartmentalized. Yeah, it's compartmentalized. You always only saw your piece of the puzzle. You didn't see what, you know, he was doing, you didn't see what he was reporting in. The only guy that got all that was the S and T's R major. Who's out there running it. Yep.

And running the numbers. I mean, it would be something to the point that you would go walk, if you had to go up to his truck or something, he'd be like, stop. And he would take pretty everything away. So you couldn't come up and look over his shoulders. Yeah, what do you need? I mean, it was top secret, bro. Top secret. Do you remember your time? Top secret. Do you remember your time? The 40-miler, yes, 16. Now according to the book, according to Charlie Beckwith's book, Delta Force, you had 20 hours

to do the 40-miler. You had to do two hours, two miles an hour in very hilly terrain, very hilly terrain. Some of it on roads, some of it on trails, some of it across country. And you had to do it in 20 hours. I believe that's accurate. I think that's legit. I did it in 16 hours, 20 minutes. A 40-miler. Damn. That's moving. Yeah. Dude, I know some guys who did it in unbelievable times. Unbelievable. What was your strategy? On the 40-miler?

Yeah. Keep moving. Take the simplest path. Because I knew people that had tried to take shortcuts and a bit of an ass, they got nailed in Mountain World. And they completely lost track of where they were at. They had no idea where they were at. They were trapped and that was it.

They were done. They couldn't get out of it. So I would just take like there's one big hill, gigantic monster hill after you do a river crossing. It's about, I want to say it's about 25 miles in and your next point is at the top of the hill. I kept it simple. I basically took, I did the switchback road all the way up. A lot of other guys just did this number

and most of them did not make it because they would get caught in mountain lore. Well, number one, it would smoke you to death. It would be so incredibly difficult to do that. 25 miles into a 40 mile rucksack march, and you're going dead reckoning at the top of this hill. I mean, I know people that did it, but as general rule, it was a kiss of death.

But I did switch back all the way up till I could see that top row. I cut over to it and came into the point. I just kept it simple, stayed focused. I didn't try to do anything fancy, kept moving. I stopped one time to have a little bit of an MRE and that was it. I kept moving the whole time.

I wasn't worried about running it. I was just trying to stay positive and stay moving the whole time. When do you find out that you passed? The 40-miler? When you get to the last point, they call up. They, you know, purple 12s here, Vickers. And they'll run the numbers.

They'll go, OK, send him on up. And you basically, and they go, OK, you know, Vickers, and they'll run the numbers and they'll go, okay, send him on up and you basically, and they go, okay, Vicker or Purple 1-2, your next point is at the top of that. Basically it was a power line clearing. At the very top, maybe a kilometer, not very far at all. You're greeted by the S&T Sergeant Major and the S and T Commander. That's who greets you at the top. And if you don't make it, you go over here. If you do make it, you go over here by the fire. And they're like, Sergeant Vickers, congratulations, you've

successfully completed the stress phase of Delta Force Selection and Assessment. Damn, what happened to my life? You know, Delta Force selection and assessment. Dude, I immediately started crying. I mean, I just gushed. I was, and I'm sure I wasn't the only one that did that. Hardest thing I ever did in my life, bar none, bar none. Out of 88 people that tried out, that started, 13 made it and 11 got through OTC. So 11 guys made it through OTC, crossed the hall into one of the Sabre squadrons out of 88.

Damn. Dude, there was classes. They had in the hallway outside OTC, they had all the different class pictures. There's a guy who he was the only dude out of the whole class that finished. No. Ray Pfeiffer. Yeah, Ray Pfeiffer. He's standing there by himself in the picture. Damn. Others three dudes, others two dudes, stuff like that.

I remember one, I was an S&T instructor and we had five. Five guys made it through selection. Wow. We had to do OTC class with like nine dudes. Cause we had those five guys and then we had four direct support, basically medics combo guys, EOD. Oh no shit. Yeah.

They went through, they would go through OTC too. Now they, there are certain things they didn't do. They didn't do CQB, but they would do everything else. You know what I mean? All the Hilo operations they would do. They would do patrolling. They'd do everything else because they're going to be augmenting the operators,

but they wouldn't do CQB. There are certain things that they didn't do. But yeah, they would go through OTC. So we had nine. Well, one guy broke his ankle. He had to get bumped to the next class. We ended up having eight for an OTC class. Wow. What was the conversation like at the campfire? They had some glue vine. You ever heard of that stuff?

Yeah. It's German, right? Yeah. I don't drink alcohol, so I didn't have any but they have that. You can partake. You don't drink alcohol? No, you never have? No, I never have. Are you serious? Yeah, courtesy to my mom. I told you. Remember, my mom, absolutely do not drink because sure. My mom's my grandfather who I never met because he'd passed away. My mom's dad had passed away before I was born, was an alcoholic. So my mom was like, uh-uh. This is like unheard of in the special ops.

Oh yeah. Unity. By the way, dude, in Delta there was more than a few people that didn't drink. Oh yeah. Oh yeah, that was not uncommon. And it was not uncommon. And more than a couple guys drank when they got there and stopped because they realized if they didn't stop and get it under control, they were going to be booted out. They were going to be shown the door. And I know a couple guys that completely stopped drinking

that had come there because they knew if something went wrong, if they didn't get it under control, because they came from SF or wherever, and the drinking was a big part of the culture, and whatnot, now they come to Delta and it's not. The drinking's not, not that the guys don't drink, don't get me wrong, but it's not that big culture thing, like we're gonna go out and get trashed every Saturday night,

that kind of a thing, no. Gotcha. And so what was the conversation like at the fire? You remember it? Basically how difficult it was, comparing notes. Do you remember that? Oh yeah, did you go there? No, yeah, because there was one part

which they discontinued. As you get up to the top of this hill, and this was on day one I think, stress day one, and there's a dude sitting there with a steak dinner. He's in a suit, he's got a table there, you know, glass of wine or whatever the hell it is and a steak dinner. And he's the cadre at the top of the hill. You're like, and he goes, you know, color and number, show me where you're at, where he came from. Your next point's located over there.

Okay, color and number, show me where you're at, where you're going, have a good one. Now here's the thing though, not everybody goes to that point. So guys start doubting each other. Like I didn't see that. What are you talking about? Yeah, man, there was a guy up there. Don't you remember that? No, I didn't see that. What are you talking about? Yeah, man, there was a guy up there. Don't you remember that? No, I didn't see it.

I didn't, there was no guy with a steak dinner at a table. You know what I mean? That kind of little bit of a psyops thing. Over time, they did away with that because they're kind of like, what really is this bringing to the table for us? And so they did away with it. They moved the swim test to OTC.

I'll tell you why they did that. At the time, dude, that did not go over well in the unit. They're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop, time out, what are you doing? Well, their thing is like, number one, the guys barely go across any bodies of water in the unit. I mean, you know, in selection, in OT, or in selection. You know, there's one river crossing during the 40 mile or, and now you go across a bridge.

They used to have a pontoon boat that take you back and forth. You go across a couple of creeks. So having a guy pass a swim test in order to attend selection doesn't really make much sense because back at his unit, he may not have access to a swimming pool where he could practice. So let's bump it.

Let's say, let's get the guy through selection, that one or two dudes, whatever that might be, let's get him through selection and then an OTC at the very beginning now we'll give him a swim test and then now he's had you know a couple months whatever now it's on him okay now you've got to find the sources you've got to find a pool you got to find the ability to go and practice for the swim test you know what the swim test is and you know you're going to be evaluated on when you get the OTC As far as I know there was nobody who failed it By the time they got to OTC there, you know when they signed in and they got to swim test It was no problem. Nobody failed it. And so what happens the next day after you pass selection?

More well chillin You rest then more value more psyche valves. Lots of psyche. Oh dude. Famous story. What's that? That's the way I always passed them, think about fuzzy bunnies. There's a famous story, and I don't know if it's true, but I don't necessarily doubt it, a story, and I don't know if it's true, but I don't necessarily doubt it, that the unit Sykes had it nailed down so tight on who would make selection that they put a list of names in an envelope, gave it to like the S&T Sergeant Major, and at the end of the Corps, end of selection, they were going to open it up and see what guys finished selection versus the names on the sheet and they nailed it. Wow.

Now that could be a wives tale, it could be an urban, but they had it really nailed down. I know more than a few guys who, in SF, that once they got to a certain point, they were done. They just, they narrowed the beam down or whatever, the focus down to the point that they could tell this guy's not gonna work out. Because they had that kind of institutional knowledge per se of different people in the past and psychological profiles and indicators and little triggers, stuff that they can dial in on and go, this guy is just not going to be a good candidate. So they would actually pull guys that are making the time just because they didn't think they could.

Well, what would happen is they would go to the board and then they'd get cut. Gotcha. Yeah. They would go to the board and they'd get cut. That's how they would go to the board and then they'd get cut. Gotcha. Yeah. They would go to the board and they'd get cut. That's how it would go. When did you start OTC? Wall selection finished October, started it right after New Year, signed in the unit in December, got our gear, all that deal, went on Christmas break and then came back right

after New Year and started it. So you had about, you know, what, three months? Yeah, ish. What was that three months? What'd you fill that with? When it basically went back to bad toltz. And once again, now I'm the guy that walked on water. Because you go back to that unit.

I mean, it's, you can go your entire Army career and never meet one guy who made it into Delta. Real easy. Real easy. And I went back and they were like, I made it and they were like, I mean, right then. Dude, you're like now six inches off the ground. And then you're basically, you then you have paperwork, you hand your chain to command and it said, you know, individuals been, you know, selected for a special missions unit, orders will be coming down. There is no deferment allowed. He will abs, you can basically tell them reading the right act. You know, you're, this guy is going to go

to Fort Bragg and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it. Because he's now, you know, he's been selected at this level. You're at this level, you're not going to stop. And they had to do that because units, you're losing some of your best guys. This guy's a stud. He's one of the best guys that, you know, on your team or in your battalion, Ranger battalion or whatnot. And now he's leaving. Now I'm going to do whatever I can to keep him.

Boy they shut that down. By the time I went through, I'm sure early on that was a real problem. That's why they give you that piece of paper that you hand, you know you hand to your chain of command and they, by the time I went through there was no issues. Everybody, hey he made Delta, he's gone. So they would kind of just write you off. You're kind of on your own, doing your own PT, you know, getting ready, packing up, waiting for the official order to come down so you know when you're actually leaving. How was it checking into OCC?

Overwhelming at first. You're like, oh my God, I'm coming through the gate into the Delta Force. You come in totally overwhelming. Then you start seeing the guys you that you made it through selection with. They're going to be in your OTC class. You get the initial in brief from the instructors, different instructors than you saw in West Virginia. That's cadre out of the squadrons. So like a troop, one of the squadrons will go up and rotate through every, you know what I mean?

B squadron might have it this time, C squadron, and then those are different guys than you see for the OTC instructors, totally different guys. It's not one and the same. And then you'll get introduced to the instructors and you kind of get your gear together and all that. Just pretty overwhelming. Fortunately they ease you into it.

You know what I mean? Then you're doing PT, but their thing is like now we want to keep you in shape, but we don't want to break you down because you've already proven that you have what you need from a physical point of view. That's what you just proved in West Virginia. Now we want to train you. We have assessed you and feel like you are the correct raw material to become a Delta operator. Now we want to train you and evaluate you to see if in fact you can become a functional member of the unit a Delta operator

So that's the difference there. The PT isn't designed to tear you down. I mean it's designed to keep you in shape team building Because now it is yeah, it's individual but now it's also can you can you function as a team? How are you treated? Oh like adults. Yeah, no, no discouragement, no harassment. Yeah. Is there, is there any interaction between the guys going through OTC and the operators? Very, very little. Basically no, and it's discouraged.

It's very, like, you hate, because a lot of the guys know guys in the squadrons. And they're like, you see them in the chow hall, you can say hi, but that's it. You don't talk to them. And then the guys in the squadrons are told, don't interact with the guys in OTC. Because you don't want to give them a heads up, you know what I mean? To my buddy, oh, by the way, watch for this, that kind of stuff. Gotcha. So you're basically both sides of the equation. The OTC students are told, don't interact with the guys in the squadron.

So guys in the squadrons are told don't interact with the guys in OTC. Can you describe day one of training? You know, right off the bat, it was all about shooting. The first two weeks was all about shooting. Dry fire, we did like, I want to say at least, maybe, I don't know if it was a week, at least like three days of dry fire before we ever made it to the range. At least all day. All day long for the first three days. And I could be wrong on that, it may be longer. But it was all about shooting right from the start. Because they realized shooting in CQB is what that unit's all

about. I mean that's the meat and potatoes. That's the very core of what that organization is about is Delta operator being able to do shooting and conduct close quarters combat. And that's everything in that organization revolved around that everything. Everything. I mean, there was different stuff you did like VIP protection, high speed driving, you know, different airborne operations, you would do some Hilo operations, you know, you'd do a variety of things, but it all boiled down to what is the meat and potatoes, what's the core of what we're all about, shooting CQB. We started out with marksmanship and then that was a common thread throughout. Were there qualifications?

Oh yeah. What were some of the tougher quals? ship and then that was a common thread throughout. Were there qualifications? Oh yeah. What were some of the tougher quals? Well we'd have accuracy stuff. Bullseyes at 25 yards. Pistol stuff. What size bullseye? Oh the standard B8.

So you're talking a five and a half inch black. Damn. Yeah. Oh yeah. You know and then you'd score it. You had different scoring rings on it, a possibility of 100. You have to score to a certain, and I don't remember what they were, but you have to score to a certain amount in order to pass.

And then you evaluated on that on a pretty regular basis. Very accuracy oriented. Delta is famous for that. And that's why you see instructors out they're all accuracy based. Because nobody's going to have to tell you you go what about speed? Well here's the thing

nobody's going to have to tell you to shoot faster in a gunfight. I'm in a gunfight. Nobody's going to have to hey dude, shoot faster. That's never going to be a factor. The issue is getting hits on target. So you have to make sure and I have a personal rule of thumb that I go by is under conditions of stress, the best you will be able to perform is 50% of your normal. You know what I mean? If I'm shooting at a certain on the range, the absolute best I can hope to perform under

conditions of stress is 50% of that particular standard. So you have to hold yourself to a high standard because I'm only going to be here when I'm being shot at. What about rifle? What were some of the tougher rifle quals? We had stuff, we would do basic rifle marksmanship with M14s when I was there, initially. Accurized M14, National Match M14s. As time went on, they did away with that. And it was full size M16A2s.

And then they eventually went to the M4. And it was, you know, different positions, standing, kne positions standing kneeling prone you know basically different position shootings once again very bullseye oriented and for score and and you're evaluated to that stuff and ranked and you had to meet a certain standard or you would generally give it you get remedial training but after after a certain point, and then we had guys fail it. And generally they'd be put out of the unit or they would put, they would be put in a support role in unit where they were not an operator, where shooting wasn't necessarily,

you know, not important. It's important for everybody there, but not as important as it is for an operator. So they put them in a support role. Then once you got to that point, the real thing that we did people out with CQB, that was really what it boiled down to. That's what we did people out. Cause you, you know, you can take a guy through selection, you can have him shooting, but when you go

into a room and there's somebody shooting past you by a matter of inches, there's some people that absolutely cannot handle that. And we saw that with guys. You know, about every class there'd be somebody, I remember one guy, everybody liked him, he's a great dude. All the instructors liked him. He just could not do it. He's a great dude. We're every, all the instructors liked him. He just could not do it. He couldn't do it. And he basically said, Hey, I can't, I can't do this.

I can't do it. And he, you know, we let him go. How complicated does it get? Pretty complicated. Um, you know, you've, you know, you can do it with protective mask on and all that jazz, but you know, it gets to the point where you're coming in on it You're fast roping in at night

You know door charges flash bangs And you know live people you have live bad guys. You got to shoot past them And targets you can even get some munitions Going on or you're being shot at with some munitions You're shooting back at them with some munitions that kind of you can very very complicated and get really ramped up And what you see is it really starts separating people we see is guys that you know if I'm coming into the house and it's during the day and I can See all the targets

That's one thing but now I I gotta come in on a fast rope and it's in the middle of the night and the helos are flaring and dropping guys off and there's rotor wash and we gotta put up door charges and then we gotta use flash bangs and there's a team on this side of the hall and there's a team on this side of the hall. We have to make sure we're not doing crossfire.

All that stuff starts coming into play, then some guys really start coming unraveled. How many, I mean, what is a, does everybody have CQB experience before they show up from their prior unit? No, no. How many guys? We have some. We have now a lot more because you see Rangers doing it, Green Green Berets doing it that kind of stuff because it's trickled down

But let's face it. No, I mean Guys and you know those combat arms. They I mean we see an infantry units too They know what they need to know how to do some basic CQB. Mm-hmm They need to know how to do it because I mean it's urban combat You're flown into a room with bad guys. You need to know how to be able to do at least a basic level of CQB. Now they're told right off the bat, how many guys know how to do CQB here? Nobody puts their hand up.

They go, yeah, you got the memo, right? There's the right way, there's the wrong way, there's the Delta way. And you don't know shit about CQB till you show up here. And we will teach you the way we do CQB. How long do you spend on CQB? Oh, dude. OTC is basically six months throughout the six months. I'd say three months of it is CQB. If you, you know, it's spread out because now you're doing, you're, you're doing VIP training and you're doing high speed.

You're doing, you, you do a, uh, POW training, of course, towards the end, but you're doing different segments of the training of OTC, but the constant, the common threads are shooting and CQB. So if you go away for VIP training, when you come back, you're going to roll right back into some shooting and roll right back into CQB. So I would say the shooting and the CQB portion in OTC of six to seven month program is probably half of it. I mean, CQB just gets so complicated and you know, I'm just curious when you, when you show up at OTC and you have guys that, you know, that, that, that have, and

it sounds like back then there was a lot of people that had zero exposure to CQB. I mean, I had none. People, what I'm trying to do here is, is bring to the audience how complicated this can get, you know? And, and so when does it move from, you know, a center fed door with no windows, no exterior doors, no nothing, you just targets in there to, to a full building take down where you got to worry about exterior doors. You're clearing rooms through windows into the next room. You're clearing other,

you're, you're, you know what I'm getting at. Yeah. And it's not just targets. It's sectors of fire. It's reading off the guy next to you. It's reading. It's, it's, it's green on green stuff. It's shooting through windows. It's it's it's green on green stuff. It's shooting through windows. It's clearing rooms before you even enter Yeah, I mean how how fast is the pace that gets that? That's the bottom last third. That's the last two months Okay, now the six-month program Six seven-month program. That's the last two months How long do you how long do you spend on just the basic center-fed doorway into a room with nothing exterior to worry about?

Oh man, that basic level, probably a week. A week. Yeah. And then it just starts going from there. Okay, we're in this room, now we've got to go to that room. And then that kind of evolves. So that, that, that really basic stuff, probably two weeks, maybe three. And then different structures on the compound. They have multiple structures to do CQB in. Stairwells, hallways. Oh yeah, stairwells, hallways. Key hallways.

You get used to this shoot house. As soon as they're used to it, now we come over here. How many shoot houses are there? Oh my god If I had to guess now When I was there probably ten ten different shoot out. Yeah Yep, if I had to guess I'd say ten. How long is it before you start using live ammunition? Really soon. Lay in on something. There's three things that dialed me into this is the NFL.

This is the big leagues. Number one, when I got there and we were using gold medal, federal gold medal ammunition for bright basic rifle. We weren't using standard ball. We were using federal gold, federal gold metal ammunition for basic rifle. We weren't using standard ball, we were using federal gold metal match for our M14s. Basically a $1.50 around ammo for M14s. I knew right then, because I knew enough what that ammo, how expensive it was. I'm like, whoa. We had MAG 58s instead of M60s.

Before the M240 was adopted, and the Marines were using the M240, and the Rangers not, we were using them before any of them. I knew right then, head and shoulders gun over the M60, and we had MAG-58s. Last one, the big one. We carried live ammo all the time. Everywhere on Fort Bragg. You saw a guy, a Delta guy out on a four-wheeler on a ruck march or wherever he's got live ammo on him on Fort Bragg. Really low-key. That's something that everybody did nobody talked about. 82nd Airborne didn't

know anything about it. Unit MPs I mean because that's unheard of in the regular army for guys to be walking around with live ammo. You had live ammo on you all the time. Why is that? To get you used to having live ammo and being responsible with it. You know what I mean? How to manage the load, manage the weight, knowing when I'm handling my weapon, my weapon's loaded.

So I have to be aware of muzzle, finger off the trigger. I have to be dialed in on what's going on with this weapon because it's loaded, it's ready to go. Yeah, whoever dreamed that up, I got to give them, way back in the day, the OG Delta guys, I got to give them credit. How long has Delta been around before you? 1977. I got there 1988, so 11 years. Now 77 when it started, but that was very much in its infancy.

So they really, they didn't get ramped up to about 79 and then Desert One was 1980. So really the unit had been up and running about a decade-ish by when I got there, maybe a little bit less. And talking about some MACV SOG Pipe Hitters, organized that unit and started it. We're talking about some serious OG Pipe Hitters got that place going that knew from what worked and what didn't work in Vietnam, and they made sure that we didn't do the same mistakes when they started Delta. So this is where the Vietnam guys went? Yes. The guys like Dick Meadows, OG, serious OG pipe hitter, was a guy that was in on the ground floor, he was retired,

but Charlie Beckwith brought him in to get that organization going. And he kind of set the tone, set the standards for the organization, him and others. But you know, Mack Vsauge legends like Dick Meadows, those are the guys that laid the groundwork. And I'm sure those are the guys that said, guys are going to be carrying live ammo all the time. So you, when you were there, you were probably there with a lot of the plank owners. Do you guys call them plank owners?

Yeah. Plank owners for the audience means that they're the original guys. Yeah, actually there was quite a few. We would there OTC one, the guys that were there from, that were there from OTC number one and on. Yeah. Oh yeah. We were there from some of them. What class were you? OTC 23. Yeah, 23. Yeah. When I was there, there was about 200 people that had been Delta Force operators.

That's it? That's it, at that time. I have no idea where they're at now, because I've been out of there for 20 years. So I don't know where they're at. But OTC 23, and there have been about 200 guys that there for 20 years. Yeah. So I don't know where they're at, but the OTC 23 and there have been about 200 guys that have been dealt operators. Wow.

And in a decade. What was it like at graduation? Oh dude. Well, you know, interestingly enough, they didn't make a big deal about it. They see it called crossing the hall. You'd, you'd come in, you'd get an interview. They'd assess how you did in OTC, and you're going to A squadron.

That's where I went, and that was it. You packed up your stuff. Your stuff was already packed up because you were going to be moving that day. You knew whether you passed or not, where you were going to the squadron. You just didn't know what squadron you were going to. You'd take your stuff over, and they'd say, yeah, you're on F team or whatever and you go into F team put your stuff in the wall locker. What did they say at your review? I was interestingly enough I was the first guy in West Virginia to go in for the board and I was the first guy at after OTC to go in

for the board out of my OTC class. Very first guy in West Virginia that went in for the board, very first guy that went in after OTC. And people said, well, it's nothing to it bullshit. I know for a fact now, because I was on the other end of this. They're bringing in a guy that's a no-brainer, that's obviously going to go to the unit, or he's finished OTC, because that warms up. That gets the guys who are on the board warmed up to the questions and the sequence

and the program of how you're going to interview these guys. Now, I remember at the time, well, there's no rhyme or reason to it, horse. I knew at the time I go, that doesn't sound right. You know what I mean? They're gonna say the guys are questionable towards the end. They're gonna say those guys are questionable towards the end. The guys that may, they may need to grill and I'm not really talking about OTC, they pretty much know. You know whether you're gonna go to a squadron or not. That's kind of a given.

Talking about in West Virginia after selection, they keep those guys to the end that they may have to grill for 30 minutes. And you know, because they've tracked this guy all the way through. They know what he's done right and what he's done wrong. We've had a couple guys that, I mean, I thought they were good to go. They got balanced on the board and selected. Wow. Yeah. What did they say at your board? Guys, I made a classic mistake. I, oh my god, I, they asked me a question and they go, why'd you do this? And I go, well,

you know other guys did it too. Oh dude, yeah, I mean, that's the kind of comment I made. I go, well, you know, I'm sure other guys were doing it too. Oh my God. They were late into me on that one. And as soon as I said it, I was like, why did I say that? And then they start talking to you and they go, well, you need to understand some sort of vicar's, Delta Force is part of the Army. You have to be part of the Army if you're

going to be in it. And they kind of lead you up to where you're like, oh my God, they're going to tell me I didn't make it. They purposely do that. And then at the very end, the commander goes, I want to be the first one to welcome you to the Delta Force. How'd that feel? Off. Unbelievable. I mean, the high of the high. Only one thing was ever higher than that.

One thing. Rescuing Kurt Muse out of a Delta prison. In my life. Wow. Yep. That's the only thing that is higher than him shaking my hand. And then they all come up to shake her hand. So yeah, they bring in early on, they bring in the guy that's a no brainer. This guy's no brainer, he's going to the unit or he's going to a squadron, no-brainer.

And that's just to warm the board staff up, the guys who are on the board. Because quite a few of them, it's the first time they've been on a board. They don't really know the sequence. And they're either coached, hey, these are the kind of questions you ask, this is the kind of responses you're looking for. But you got to get them warmed up to being on board. And they do, early on you're bringing in guys that are no brainers. Do you remember what they asked why you did?

Whatever it is that you did? No, I don't. Do you remember any of the specific questions? No, I really don't. I just remember that one response that just opened the door for them. And I just realized, oh my God, why did I say that? Well, other guys were doing it or whatever. Well, I'm sure other guys were doing it too. That was stupid.

I knew it as soon as it came out of my mouth. But I don't remember exactly what the question was, No, I don't remember exactly what the question was. Where did you go from there? From selection or from OTC, a squadron, a squadron. Yeah. A squadron. I went to a two troop F team and I was a junior guy on F team. How did they greet you?

Good treat as a professional. No, you didn't look it down on anybody. And I was a junior guy on F-Team. How did they greet you? Good. Treated as a professional. No, didn't look it down on anybody. You know, a little bit of hazing and stuff, but real minor stuff. Nothing major. Because you know, you respected the guy. You probably already got word. Hey, this guy is a star.

He was one of the best guys. You know what I mean? Or, you know, this guy kind of needs, you know, he mean? Or, you know, this guy's kind of needs, you know, he's okay, but, you know, he obviously met the standard. He wouldn't be going to squadron, right? But you may have already kind of gotten the word on the guy. And maybe guy who thinks he walks on wire, you might need to knock him down a couple notches.

You know what I mean? Or hey, this guy's a stud. We got word. Yeah, this dude was a, he killed it in OTC. And they're like, really? He goes, yes. The seal we had, Kevin Holland, superstar, came from ST6. We watched him like a hawk. I put him through selection. He was our number one guy. No shit. Oh, dude, he killed it. He absolutely killed it. I remember talking to him

and at the end I go, dude, do you know any more guys in the SEALs like you? And he goes, yeah, we can. I go talk to him about coming here. I go, because we need all the guys like you we can get. He was a rock star. We were watching him like a hawk. Like he's a SEAL, you know, he came from ST6. Like he's a CEO, you know, he came from ST six, you know what I mean? Dude, he was a rock star, absolute rock star. He was the number one guy in his class. Wow. He killed it. Absolutely killed it.

By the end of it, any of the cadre would have taken him on his team in a New York second. When you did show up to A squadron, how do you, how do you feel that your proficiency in CQB and just being an operator in general measured up to the guys that were? You knew you were at a pretty basic level because the guys there had been doing it many of them for years now. You've only done it for a few months. Now that being said, I went in, I mean, CQB-Y is one thing, a lot to learn.

I shot at a very high level as soon as I walked across the hall. I was, you know, within probably the top five guys shooting wise, as soon as I walked across the hall. I was, you know, within probably the top five guys shooting wise, as soon as I walked across the hall in A squad. Wow. Oh yeah. I've always, one thing I've always, you know, I just had the ability to dial in on combat marksmanship and I did. I was probably in the top five as soon as I walked across the hall. Is it competitive? Oh yeah. How so? You don't want a team. Basically, you don't want to embarrass yourself.

So when you go out and shoot and there's peer pressure, it's not overt. It's not like in your face or nothing like that. But if you don't do real well, you beat yourself up. You're in Delta Force and this organization is known for shooting. If you don't hold the standard you're gonna beat yourself up. If it gets bad enough you're gonna get talked to. Your team sergeant is gonna pull you aside and say dude you got to put in extra time you know if I need to work with you I will. We'll get you in dialed in with one of the best shooters here.

You know what I mean? If it gets bad at that, we're pretty rare. That's pretty rare. What's the culture like? I mean, coming from the SF team, which you were really unimpressed with, what's the culture like at Delta? You know, SF team, we've talked about this a little bit,

kind of a little bit more of cohesive partying type. We're going to drink together, you know what I mean? Come over to the house on the weekend. We're going to watch football and drink, that kind of stuff. Delta is much more, from when I was there, much more fit mission focused. Really focused about why you're there and what you're all about. Comradery and whatnot, but it's like, hey,

going over to your house on the weekend and drinking beer with you and watching football, that's over here. What we're about is right here. And it's the organization. And once I go back to the Dick Meadows piece, I don't know how much you know about the guy. There's a fantastic book written about him

called Quiet Professional. Is that the name of it? I'll think about it. Maybe I'll break, I'll look it up. But this dude set the standard. Never, he was Mac Vsauk legend, never lost a man in combat. Wow. In Mac Vsauge legend, never lost a man in combat. Wow.

In Mac Vsauge. 13 POWs captured. He captured more enemy combatants than anybody. He's the guy that went in and got, he became an officer because of this, and eventually became a major, retired major. He went in and he got video footage, him and his team video footage of the Ho Chi Minh trail to prove that the Ho Chi Minh trail actually existed. No shit.

That was sent back to Congress and Congress was shown this is Ho Chi Minh trail and Dick Meadows is the guy who did it. I mean, we're talking about a Mac B. Sogg legend. And he set the standard, he was in charge of the assault force on the Sante raid. So when you went in there, you didn't know it, but you had that Dick Meadows umbrella or standard set. Unbelievable planning. I mean, detailed planning down to the absolute smallest

detail and Delta, that's what we were all about. I mean, detailed planning down to the absolute smallest detail. In Delta, that's what we were all about. So it was a serious focused organization in terms of mission focus. Partying at your house on the weekend for watching football, that's not very important. This is what's important. To that, you asked about what's the different culture, what's the different feel, that's it. Delta is all about the mission. SF, and I'm not saying it's not, but it's, you know, you got more of a, you know, it's just more

of a, it's just a different feel to it. Like I said, come over to the house, you know, we'll drink beer over the weekend. We'll have a team party. We'll cook out. That's all cool. And we did some of that stuff in Delta, but nothing like you saw it elsewhere. Nothing. It was all about, and there were some legendary team, team leaders. Some of them were absolute Nazis, absolute Nazis about stuff like you're supposed to be in at eight o'clock going on the range. You were firing the first shot when eight o'clock hit. Gotcha.

Not show up and we're heading to the range at eight. You're on the range pulling the trigger and the first bullets going down range when eight o'clock hits. And dude, there were Olympic men, you've seen him too. You were in the CLC, you've seen what I'm talking about. Olympic level athletes. I mean, guys that were, I still can't believe some of the physical accomplishments that they would do.

Yeah. And guys that were Olympic level athletes in an organization. You've seen it, I've seen it. I mean, you're a stud to get in that organization to begin with, but guys that are on this level. Wow. Let's take a quick break. When we come back, we'll get into some of your operations.

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been evaluated by the Food and Drug Administration. These products are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease or condition. All right Larry, we're back from the break. We covered OTC. You're at the unit, you're in A squadron. How long are you there before you go on your first operation? So I got there. Summer of 89. And we ended up doing Panama in December of 89. So six months, six months and you're on your first mission. Yep. And we heard scuttlebutt that there was a guy, we heard it was a CIA guy

that was held in Panama at prison and there was people working on it in terms of a rescue mission. And it followed the squadrons in terms of when you were on alert cycle, you would work on the mission and then when you came off alert cycle, it would go to the next squadron, you would hand it off, and they would develop the plan and rehearse and they'd tweak it. And then when they came off alert cycle, they'd hand it off to the next, you know, hey, this is what we got. And we didn't know if it would ever happen, because it was all part of the bigger picture in terms of it was called Blue Spoon and eventually became Just Cause. And it was going down to overthrow Noriega and his government, is really what it was. The Kurt Muse rescue was a piece of that because one, George Bush, senior, had made it a priority, hey, we're going to rescue this guy.

And we knew he was held in Mandela Prison, which was the premier prison in Panama City. It was basically their model prison or whatever you want to call it. It was the number one prison in the country and that's where he was being held. It was a block away from the commandantia, which is essentially the Panamanian Pentagon. So it was basically right in the heart of the belly of the beast, for lack of a better term. And we knew if we didn't get him at the beginning, he was going to be killed as soon as the invasion went off. So the just cause was initiated by the rescue operation to get Kurt Muse out. That started the sequence of events that became just causing the whole country-wide effort to overthrow Noriega and his government.

Can you describe what was going on in Panama at the time? Well, a lot of, you know, at one time Noriega was basically an ally of the United States. Well, that flipped. The guy's corrupt. I mean, he was a shit bird. And there was a lot of unrest. There was a lot of tension between the Americans and the Panamanians, and it was escalating. It just, over time, it just got worse and worse and worse and it all came to a head when just before Just Cause kicked off. Ace Squadron was on our alert cycle. We'd been training

for the Modelo prison raid because we'd had it got a hand off and we were putting our, you know, tweaking it, putting our, you know, touches to the mission. We'd been rehearsing it. I want to say a Marine lieutenant that was killed at a checkpoint, I want to say, right near the commandantia. They started harassing the guy. If memory serves me correct, the way it worked was he was in a vehicle with a couple other military personnel and he kind of went through this

checkpoint and one of the Panamanians shot at him and hit him and killed him. Sh**. Killed this Marine Lieutenant. I think it was a Marine but I know for a fact it was a US military personnel lieutenant and was killed. I remember hearing about that on the news. And I went, ooh, this is not gonna go well. And sure enough our beeper went off like that. And I went, oh, I gotta go in. And we went in. I saw Elden Bargewell, the squadron commander, Mac V Sog legend. And he said, blue spoons going down two days from now.

Like, whoa. And we got on the birds and we were down, and we were the first ones down to Howard Air Force Base before all of JSOC came down and basically descended in SOCOM. JSOC and SOCOM descended on Howard Air Force Base and established that as an HQ for the special operations piece of Just Cause. And this has been building up for a while. We've been doing rehearsals. We've had some pretty major rehearsals for it.

Basically like I said, it was called Operation Blue Spoon and then became Just Cause. And by the way, it's called Acid Gambit now. I never heard during the mission, ever heard the terms Acid Gambit. Never did. It was only till later. Much later. And I'm not sure why that is. You know what I mean? What were you guys, what was the FTX's for? I mean, did you guys have, I know what they were for. Did you guys have a layout of the prison? Did you know where he was? I mean, how Nat's ass was the intel question?

Good question. Back from you guys, to you guys to plan this. There had been an army doctor who'd been allowed to go in and see him. I don't think it was once a week. I think it was once a month and he was in there nine months. I think it was once a month. This army doctor was able to go in and check on his health and welfare. And the army doctor was debriefed extensively every time he came back. So we started getting really good intel on where he was held inside the prison, you know, what condition he was in, the layout of the prison. We were able to get

some really good intel from this army doctor. We would do flybys. We were down there initially. We went down initially to train up. We would do flybys with helicopters and look at the top of the prison from a distance and kind of take photos and whatnot and kind of get the layout of the top of the prison because it was right next to a Howard Air Force base, it was right next to it. So it was totally plausible for helicopters to be flying nearby, not right over the prison, but nearby. And we would get visual on the cupola at the top and the door on the cupola and all that kind of stuff. So we had substantial amount of Intel.

And would you guys, I mean, I know that there are certain units that can basically build a damn near an exact mock-up of the target that they're getting ready to hit. Were you guys, did you guys have that capability at that time? Yeah, we did. We had a great tabletop layout. I think the CIA built it. I'm pretty sure they did. And I assume they still have it at the unit. It was on display. We had a great tabletop layout, model.

There was a big blue spoon operation down in Florida and they built a mockup of the prison down there. They built an entire mockup. They built an entire mockup.. The prison is four stories. Remember, serves me correct. There's pictures of it online. I'd have to look, but I think the prison's four stories. They were only able to complete three stories before we did the rehearsal. But they had a mock-up of the prison built down on But they had a mock-up of the prison built down on Eglin Air Force Base. And that's where we did the rehearsal out of. And then we hit the prison. That was part of the big

Blue Spoon rehearsal. Did they move Muse to different cells every time the doctor would come back? No, they settled it. I believe initially they were moving him around, but he got settled in on the, if memory serves me correct, the second floor, we had to go down two floors to get to him. The second floor, they settled him in at one spot and he was kind of in the VIP prison cell by himself. And we'd heard he was kind of in a VIP, a little bit bigger prison cell whatnot, but he was being held in a, you know, we knew where he was at the doctor and he'd

been there a while in that, in that cell. Wow. And the doctor, that's actually pretty fucking surprising that they wouldn't move them around every single time the doctor came, just to, you know, to not have you guys have an exact replica of where he's at. You know, in hindsight, I really don't think they even visualized us coming into that prison to get him. No kidding? Yeah, I just think that, because if you look at it

from a layman's point of view, we're going to break into a prison and get somebody out. It's kind of like, seriously? How the hell is that going to happen? Well, I'm wondering the same damn thing, to be honest with you. So you go down to Panama, you guys got a mock up in Florida, you wind up in Panama, you're doing flybys, you're gathering intel. Let's talk about Muse. Who was he?

He was an American. Good guy, by the way. We're personal friends now. He's, he calls all the guys that were on the mission every, the anniversary every year, December 20th. He calls them on every single person and thanks them for their, for rescuing him. Great guy. American civilian down there, kind of involved in the community,

very anti-Noriega. It kind of started an anti-Noriega cell, so to speak. Pete Slauson Cell doing what? Pete Slauson You know, disruptive activities towards the regime. disruptive activities towards the regime. The most famous one was, Noriega was going to give a speech, right in the middle of the speech they cut in with anti-Noriega propaganda over the radio. That's the most famous one they did. Exact timeline on that, I'm not sure, but that, Kurt said that's the one that really put them on the radar screen. Was when they did that. Now General Noriega is going to speak, bam, they cut in and they're giving out their propaganda against him. So he was a dependent. His wife worked as a school teacher on Howard Air Force Base.

So he was a military civilian dependent. She was civilian, DOD civilian, and he was a dependent of her. You had mentioned earlier that you had heard that he was a CIA asset or a CIA guy. Was he? You know, he's talking to Kurt. He said the only support he got from them was real late in the game. He met some agency guys in Miami to get radio equipment to help his cause. That's what Kurtz told us. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

He's never given me a reason that he was an agency guy and he's kind of operating undercover or whatnot. I've never gotten that from him, so I can't speak to other than what he said is late in the game he got some assistance from them. Well, I think that pretty much paints the picture then. I mean, I don't know, like the CIA is just handing out equipment. Good point.

Valid point. But and so he was disrupting, he was basically propaganda against Noriega. Yep. How many people had he amassed? Do you have any idea? You know, I only think a handful because he's obviously stayed in touch with him. I think there was a handful of guys and he mentions how he got rolled up was basically Noriega went back to his, you know, basically bribed people, hey, give him up.

And one of the wives, if memory serves me correct, one of the wives of his guys, his network gave him up. And that's how he got rolled up. Yeah. Through a bribe. What were they doing to him in prison? Anything? No, I don't think they really did much. I think psychological warfare,

but I don't think they ever did anything physical like that. I do remember, I don't know if you've ever heard of this or not, there was a coup attempt against Noriega by some Panamanian Defense Force officers. And they actually captured, and they had Noriega under house arrest. Noriega was able to talk his way out of it. Those officers got scarfed up. I think they were later executed. But Kurt talked about, if memory serves me correct, talked about one of the officers being strung up to the basketball goal out in the common area of the prison and being tortured.

But I don't think Kurt ever went through any of that. I think he was just psychological warfare. I'm pretty confident he never was physically abused. How prepared for the mission did you feel? More prepared than any other mission I've been involved with bar none. We rehearsed it, went over it, refined it, rehearsed it, went over it, refined it to the nth degree. Nth degree.

Yeah, that up to, you know, my time in the military was the gold standard in terms of preparation for a specific operation. What point did you guys get the green light? Once that lieutenant was killed and the beeper went off, I went in. I remember seeing Colonel Bargewell, squadron commander. I was going in to fill up my canteens and he's going, Blue Spoon's going down to, you know, 24 or 48 hours from now. I was like, whoa. And I knew Blue Spoon going down, which became just cause, meant we were going to initiate Modelo prison, you know, right before the actual invasion kicked off.

I knew that's what that meant. What was the briefing like? Well, everybody knew what they're gonna do because we'd been rehearsing it. It was A2, actually it was more than just A2 troop, it was a sniper troop as well. A1 troop was basically on standby to react to any of Noriega's henchmen that popped up so they could respond and scarf them up. It never really happened, by the way, but that's what they were standing by for, A1 troop. A2 troop was involved in the

assault and A3 troop, the sniper troop, was involved in the operation as well. And they basically provided security on top of the prison. So this was legitimately just A2 and some snipers? Yeah, A2 troop and all the sniper troop. How many guys? Twenty-three. I say all, not all, majority. 23 went on the prison, went on the roof. And with Muse coming out, it's 24.

Shit. How, I mean, how big was this prison? It's pretty good size. Man, it is pretty good size. If you research it on the internet, I'm sure you can find some pictures of it. It's pretty big. Yeah, we'll overlay it right now as we're talking on doing our best to try to find the pics. Yeah, we'll get them. But I mean, what were you guys expecting? Well, we got word somewhere along the line that they'd ramped up and they expected if we were going to

try to rescue them, it was from the ground. So there was PDF kind of housed on the ground floor in the prison and an adjacent building. PDF, Panamanian Defense Force. Yep. Yeah, Panamanian Defense Force. They were housed down there in theory for a rescue attempt for Kurt Muse. They were expecting this. They were expecting and anticipating it and it was a possibility and they expected us to come in on the round four. And so what was go time like when you got down there?

Well we knew initially it was going to be, I want to say 45 minutes before the invasion but it ended up being 15 minutes before the actual invasion kicked off. We got situated on the berth, I remember we were down there, you know, we were down there like I told you before anybody and then all these JSOC people come in, SOCOM people, and I remember dude the night before I didn't sleep a wink and I'm sure nobody else did either. Wasn't scared, was just anxious. Edge of my seat, going over my head over and over and over and over my role, what I was going to do, my actions, just over and over and over. And I'm going to tell you what else too. We started getting briefed by the pilots in terms of, okay, if

the chopper goes down and we're injured and you need to shut down the rotors this is how you do it and I remember looking around the faces the other guys and dude everybody had their game face on I mean it was it was for real and I remember Colonel Bargewell Mack V Sogg legend distinguished service cross Mack V Sogg I'd heard Scuttlebutt, we heard Scuttlebutt he was actually put in for the Medal of Honor and it was downgraded to the DSC partially because he was a real rebel in Mack V Sog. That's what we'd heard and I don't doubt it. But I remember him talking to us going, you know, I can see you guys, I've seen this face before, I had it when I was in Vietnam.

Everything is going to be fine. We're going to get in there and get him. We're going to get out. You guys are going to be good to go. Was it a night up? Oh yeah. 0-0-45 hours. 15 minutes before one in the morning. And we were out on the lined up four little birds. Interestingly enough, except for one bird, we had six dudes. Two birds had two pilots, three guys on each pod. Other two birds had one pilot and three guys on each side, except for one spot for Kurt

Muse. And they had skeletonized the bird, taken out everything. One pilot, I heard him talking about the other day, had one round in his pistol. He didn't even have a full magazine ammo. We weighed in every day our kit. We didn't even have a hard plate. Yeah, on our body armor. We took the hard plate. Yeah, I'm dead serious. Every single day we weighed in to make sure that our weight was exactly where it needed to be every day because the weight was that critical because they wanted as many bodies in there as possible. In case

things just totally went sideways, you wanted more bodies, more delta operators than less. So it went down that critical and they skeletonized the birds. I'd heard scuttlebutt and I'm pretty sure this was debunked. Yeah. I don't think this actually happened. They started the bird and then took the battery out to save weight. I later heard that was bullshit. They started the bird and then took the battery out to save weight I

Later heard that was bullshit. I think that was discussed, but it wasn't actually done Wow, yeah, so it was that close in terms of weight You take off I mean this is just I mean this is your first real world op. Yeah. Hostage rescue mission in Panama. That's fucking crazy, man. Well, and what's interesting, I'll never forget it. Guy went through selection with went through selection with him, went through OTC, went to a squadron with him. And now we're on the mission together. We're on the pods,

you know, sitting on the bench seat on the pod. He's right here and he's going to be on the roof with a Mag-58. I actually go into prison. I'm one of the guys that go in. I was actually the first guy to go in through the prison door. And I'll get to that in a minute. But he looked at me, I looked at him. He stuck his hand out. I shook his hand, no words were said. Nothing needed to be said. Never forgot it. I mean, it was game time. Nothing needed to be said.

I'll never forget it. And then we took off. Interestingly enough, I think it's the school that Kurt Muse's wife actually taught at. We flew over a school on Howard Air Force Base. It is a school that we did a school on Howard Air Force Base. It is a school that we did a rehearsal on. We did a rehearsal on it and one of the little birds that hit a tail rotor and a Chinook had to come in before daytime.

A Chinook had to come in and lift it off and get it off the top of the school. And this was, you know, a few weeks before, two weeks before, whatever the casement was, but it, a few weeks before, two weeks before, whatever the case was, but it was a, a rehearsal site and we flew right over that school. So it was kind of like deja vu. Wow. Came in.

I was on bird number two going in and there was birds behind us, two birds behind us. We'd gotten word that in the major intersection, right going down to the commandantia and in the prisons over here, there was a machine gun set up, there was PDF, they had to be dealt with or they were going to fire at the birds coming by. We had a sniper team that came down off a hill overlooking the intersection. Guy had a bolt gun, guy had a mag 58, guy had three dudes, guy had an M203. And the theory was they're in position, they're in overwatch, and as soon as they see one of the PDF do this, they're going to light them up. And what I understood happened was the first two birds go over, I was in bird number two,

the first two birds go over, there was nobody in the intersection because I remember looking, I was on the right side, I remember looking, looking for anybody. There was nobody there. We went over. They heard the birds. Then they come out. And then they're going to shoot at the second set of birds, bird three and four. And they got lit up by the guys in the Overwatch position. Interestingly enough, never forget this. Christmas lights run the top of the prison. It was December 20th, 1989, right before Christmas. Here's Christmas lights. I'll never forget it. Wow.

And we were offset from the prison, and then the pilots did this number and then got in line and the line landed right on top of the prison and it peeled off. I got in position by the cupola. I had security position looking through the window down the stairs, the cupola on top. And then the second two set of birds came in, they dispersed. Breacher on my team went up to put a charge up and in the process of pulling the time fuse, he knocked the charge down. And it fell right from me, about from me to you. And I was like, what is that? I didn't even, you know what I mean? It didn't even dawn on me it was the charge.

Fortunately, when he went to pull it, he did not ignite the time fuse. It probably would have killed me. If memory serves me correctly, it was a C6 charge, which was P for plenty, brother. I mean, we were not going to take any chance of getting in that door. It was P for plenty. It probably would have killed me because I ended up going from being the guy looking through the window, now I'm going to be the number one guy going through the door. And I was down on the knee and I was like, what is that?

I couldn't believe it. And I remember my team sergeant came up and goes, hey man, get the backup charge ready, because I had a backup charge. And I go, why am I going to get the backup charge ready? Because the breacher's right there. Well then the breacher went back around and he said, hey, come on. He basically had me come up for cover. I covered him on the door. He put the charge back up. We initiated and dude, it was a boom.

I'll never forget it. It was a boom. When I was looking in the cupola window, the lights won. When I was looking in the cupola window, the lights went on. I thought the charge knocked out the lights and it was because it was pitch black. What actually had happened, the snipers, the support guys, had hit the generator and killed the lights. I didn't know that till later. They killed the lights in the prison so it was pitch black. I come around, the door is long gone, on the cup black. I come around, door is long gone on

the cupola. I step in, there's no landing, Shawn. Here's the door, the steps go right up to the door. There's no landing like this, where you step in and then go down the steps, it goes right up the door, like out here, you guys got. There's none. So I almost, by the grace of God, I don't know how I didn't trip because it's pitch black. I'm walking into it and by the grace of God, somehow I didn't trip. Went down, the guys are following me and people are like, why are you number one man? I was the most expendable guy.

It's that simple. I was the new guy on F-Team. F-Team and G G team were going in. F team secured the inside, the route inside the prison stairwell, the hallway, that kind of stuff. G team was the ones that were going to extract him. They're going to be the team that gets him out. So you basically set up a corridor. Yeah, we did. Went down, basically me, I can't remember who it was, me and another guy held that first stairwell. G-Team went past us.

Now I go down to the next stairwell. There was actually a room that we were going to clear. Well, we didn't clear it because it was padlocked. We're like, okay, not really a threat. Chances are nobody's in there because it's padlocked from the outside. So we didn't clear it. And I was standing there on the stairs and then about then the C-130 starts lighting up the commandantia. Yeah. Yep. Spectre starts lighting up the commandantia and it was loud. And I could see right out the window I mean right there I'd look right there and I could see the commandantia getting

lit up by this by the specter and because they'd given us X amount of time I don't I'm not sure how much time it was, but not long, maybe five minutes, maybe not, who knows. I don't even remember. It was not long at all to get in, get situated, and then they were going to start lighting up Comdansio. So they started lighting it up. We're holding the stairwell. Somebody, a PDF guy, a guard or whatever, poked his head around. Gary Harrell was there. He was the troop commander. He shot at him.

I think he missed him. Pretty calm. And he claimed later he thought he hit him, but I'm pretty sure he missed him. Because the guy took off. And then they came out with Muse. They put a C4 charge on his door and blew the door wide open. There was a guard that had told Kurt if there was a rescue attempt, he was going to kill him.

Because Kurt, I think, asked him, hey, if there's a rescue attempt for me, what are you going to do? And he goes, I'll kill you. This guy was in the room right across from Kurt. So the priority was to get down to Kurt as soon as possible to beat this guy. Before this guy gets a situational awareness, figures out what's going on, goes over to Kurt's cell and kills him. You guys knew that before you went in? Yeah, we knew it. Was he in the cell across? Yeah, he was. He was in the room across. He was in the room across and the G-Team went in and killed him.

Yep. He was armed with a pistol. I think the guy, I think he was in his shower, if memory serves me correct, G-Team found him in the shower. I think the guy went for his pistol. I already had a pistol in his hand and they killed him. Yep. They got Muse out, they brought in a little, you know, aviator kit bag, and they had body

armor and a helmet, you know, a body armor and a Kevlar helmet. Peeled him out. I remember seeing him go up the stairs. A couple things. We get up, we tell him, hey, you know, PC secure to get the extraction birds out. The reason books called six minutes to freedom, because from when we touched down to when we called, you know, PC secure called for exfil was six minutes. Just not that we were, you know, it's just the way it worked out. Not like we had a set time standard or anything like that.

It just happened. It was six minutes from when we sat down on top of the prison to when we were ready to exfil with Kurt Muse with six minutes. Wow. We were at the very top. You know what I mean? The stairwell, I remember I was here, Kurt Muse was here and that door is here. Dude, I'll never forget this as long as I live. It got quiet for a minute. I don't know how long. Like a C-130 maybe was you know taking a loop around didn't have a you know clear field of fire or whatever. Got quiet and you could hear the prisoners screaming and when you hear somebody screaming who honest to God thinks they're going to die,

it's a sound you'll never forget. Now, I'll never forget it. It's nothing like you see in a movie or any of that other bullshit. These people were convinced they were going to die and they're trapped in these prison cells. And I'll never forget that sound. Pete Slaus. Damn. Yep. So we go up, birds land. I was on bird two. They get Muse on bird one. They put him inside the bird. He's not on the pods.

They put him inside the bird. And then they G-Team who rescued him. And then they're ex G team who rescued him and then they're ex filling with him. I remember I got on the pod I was like high-fiving I didn't even bother to hook up but my the combo guy hooked me up thank God but when I'm high-fiving I go we got him you know yada yada yada well the bird lifts up and bird one kind of does this number over the prison wall and goes into the blackness.

I mean, it's pitch dark. You can't see him. There was a cemetery right beside us. We lift up. We go over, and I see muzzle flash, dude shooting at us. And I didn't get a bead on him, but I put some rounds down at him to get him and then muzzle flash stopped. I'm pretty confident I did not hit the guy,

but I at least got him to duck. So he's no longer shooting at our bird. Yeah. We lose track of bird one. We go back to Howard Air Force Base, we land. I'm like, awesome. Bird 1 went down. Bird 1 with Kurt Muse went down. What happened was, they were serious.

They had two pilots. They had six dudes with Kurt Muse. They were seriously overloaded. And the pilot tried to gain speed and kick back up, but there was power lines. So he's worried about hitting the power lines. So he sets down on a road, a street right on the other side of the cemetery. Well four guys from G-Team jump off and get out. And they're pulling security. The pilot like waves him back, come on.

Because he's going to go down, he's essentially going down the street to gain you know airspeed and then he's going to lift off. When they get back on, three of the four guys don't hook back up. So that becomes critical here in a minute. Anyway, they go down, he takes a left on the street, he starts to lift up and Bird gets hit. Crashes. One guy, three of the guys all fell off.

One guy was still the team leader was still he was hooked in. So he was good to go. And Muse who's in the he was good to go. And Muse, who's in the back, is good to go. And there was a guy from my team, my two IC, assistant team leader, was basically with him, escorting him, he was fine too. Bird goes down, breaks the right strut off. The right strut had landed,

and one of the guys who fell off, had landed on his foot. He lost his big toe. I want to say on his foot. He lost his big toe. I want to say on his right foot, he lost his big toe and never he stayed in the unit, but you can imagine when you lose a big toe dude, you're never the same. Two of the other guys on the other side got shot. One guy got shot in the leg. One guy got shot at the very bottom of the body armor. They got hit.

Bird goes down, tilts to the side. The pilots are doing their best to stop the rotors. There's a rotor still going. Muse gets out. My team assistant team leader who's escort Muse gets out with him. He didn't duck down far enough. My assistant team leader, he gets clipped upside the head, this pro tech with the rotor, knocks him out.

I mean, he goes down, knocks him out. He wakes up, here's Muse laying down prone, and he immediately freaks out, Muse, Muse. He thinks Muse is dead. He wasn't, what happened was Muse sees him go down. So he mimics him. He's, oh man, he must have gotten shot. I'm going to get down prone.

So they both get out of there. They go and they kind of hunker around the station wagon, if memory serves me correctly. It was a station wagon they hunker around. Team leader hunkers them around, gets the wounded guys over there. Muse is there. My assistant team leader who's, you know, got clipped upside the head, whose bell is

rung, they, you know, they kind of hole up around this vehicle. Some Panamanians are coming out. Muse tells them in Spanish, he speaks magnificent Spanish to get the fuck out of there. Team leaders on the radio telling them what happened. Elden Bargewell, squadron commander, still on top of the prison. What had happened was one of the guys on bird three or four did not get on the bird. Not sure who it was, but he didn't get on the bird.

So he missed the exfil. He was left behind. Elden Bargewell sees this, he jumps off, grabs a machine gunner with him, guy armed with an M60. And they set up on top and Eld Elton Barge was on the you know on the horn. He's on the radio dictating what's going on. Well he hears Elton Barge well hears the team leader call hey you know bird one's down. So once again remember how he told you we rehearsed this thing to the nth degree. We had ground forces coming in basically in APCs that were rolling in and we're

going to basically swarm the area and sure enough, they rolled in, we had Delta medics and APC and they rolled up to the guys, peeled them in, Delta medic started working on them on the spot. We took them up to Exfield to get Exfield to a CASVAC station on Howard Air Force Base. Damn. Yep. We had all that wired for sound. In case of when a bird goes down, we have to Exville.

Birds can't come in to get us out. We got to Exville off the side of the prison via fast rope. How are we going to do that? So we had this whole exfil procedure down and work like a champ. Contingency program, contingency plan. I remember hearing later the, because it was conventional forces that were doing this, the APC guys, right? I mean, it wasn't us operating it. It was the, so we got it. They got attached to us. And I remember hearing some of them go, oh, I mean, one guy goes, dude, I knew it wasn't gonna be good. When I saw these guys show up in Pro-Tex and black body armor,

I knew this wasn't gonna be good. Yeah, he showed up in black body armor and Pro-Tex, and man, I just knew this wasn't gonna be good. But yeah, they moved in. Good thing they did because a good friend of mine was shot in the leg, really good guy, probably would have bled to death almost certainly if he hadn't gotten medical treatment that quick. Damn.

Yeah, he probably would have bled to death. But they were on him in no time. Scarfed him up in the APCs and took off. And then Black Hawk came in and got Eldon Bargewell, machine gunner, and the other guy out of there. It took a lot of fire. And what happened was, if your bird was out of action, you were out of action for the entire mission,

just cause, you were done. So that bird went back, it hovered over the prison, it took fire from the Comandante area, it took hits. And by the time you got back to Howard Air Force Base, the bird was done. That was a deadline for the rest of the mission. So that pilot and that bird was out of the fight after that. How did Curt get back?

Curt went in, landed basically with the APCs because they lifted off. What happened was the APCs went up to the top of this hill adjacent to where those guys, remember the dudes I told you, the Overwatch team, they came down from that hill. They went up to the top of that, got on Blackhawk and then they took off and went back to Howard Air Force Base. Before he left Howard Air Force Base going back to the United States, he asked to go see the guys that were wounded in the Kasovac Hospital. And he did. He went in and said,

Hi, thank you for rescuing me, saving my life, that whole thing. And then he went on a bird. He was back to the States in no time. Did you meet him? No, not then. No, I didn't. Didn't meet him till actually quite a bit later when he came to A squadron, came to the unit in A squadron and briefed his side of the mission, leading up to it, all that.

What did he have to say? Well, he kind of laid out, very articulate guy, very articulate, well-spoken. He kind of laid out, very articulate guy, very articulate, well-spoken. He kind of laid out everything that happened from his point of view. How it led up to it, how he got captured, his time in the prison, his perspective for the rescue, that whole nine yards. He laid out all that stuff from his point of view, his timeline and his his perspective on how the whole thing went down.

What was that like to meet him? It was pretty cool. We all dug it. I was telling Scott about this on the way up here. We had a picture, the damn guy who took the photo, the whole thing was out of focus. All the guys that were on the mission got a picture with an A squadron classroom, got a picture with Muse, the whole goddamn thing was out of focus. Everything was blurry. And instead of taking multiple, you know, it was one of those, got it. Yeah. And instead of taking multiple pictures, I mean, it's like, come on, dude.

So it was useless. The picture was useless. But yeah, it was pretty cool meeting him. I'll bet. Getting him out of there. So that was the only thing that's trumped me making selection was rescuing him out of Modelo prison. I mean, what was it like with the team after that mission?

Very tight, tight knit. The guy who got hit in the head, um, my two, I see never really recovered. He had the injuries. I mean, he's basically never really recovered from that. He had major headaches, that kind of stuff. Bad thing is about six months later, we were back down in Panama doing jungle training. And we got on, we were about ready to do an impromptu mission on a suspected drug site, you know, basically, you know, a jungle drug operation.

And Eldon Bargewell kind of set it up. It was an impromptu mission. We were going to go hit it. We lift off in the Black Hawk. All of a sudden, we hear these pops, pop, pop, almost like the bird had been shot. It was one of the engines that went out. So we start crashing down in the jungle.

Right. So we start crashing down in the jungle. Right? He's sitting on an ammo box. Him and a couple other guys are sitting on an ammo box and the bird comes down, hits and it compacts his spine. And he basically never walked again. Same guy who got clipped in the head. My two IC never walked again. He was wheelchair bound after that. I was on the bird. Just so happened, I was sitting by a guy. We were looking to forward, looking through the windshield of the bird and the pilots were doing this stuff to try to keep the

bird under control coming down through the jungle and, um, late my first of three Helo crashes. Um, and he laid back like this and I just so happened to lay back. So when we hit, um, I was laying flat against the, against the floor of the bird like that, the only thing I was looking forward and my head bounced off the floor and knocked me out temporarily. Shit. My teammate who was beside me, he remained conscious. There was a fire. The bird had caught on fire. Everybody else was knocked out, out of action. He got up, got a fire extinguisher and put the fire out. Basically saved everybody's life. Never got a single award for that.

Never got a single, he should have got a soldier's medal for that. Never got shit. Damn. Delta's real bad about that. And I'm sure they are to this day. The old analogy that I think it was Schumacher, he's commander general, Colonel Skumacher said, firemen don't get awards for going to fires. That was his quote. You signed up for this organization, you're expected to do these things. And when you do those things, you're not going to

get awards for it. We got bronze stars, the guys in the mission all got bronze stars with V-Device, the exception of the team leader that rallied the guy, his team, around with Muse, he got a silver star. Melton Bargewell told us, we were in a classroom or whatever, he goes, if this had been Vietnam, in Vietnam you guys would have all gotten silver stars, which means that team leader would have got a DSC. If this had been Vietnam, you all would have gotten silver stars, which means that team leader would have got a DSC. If this had been Vietnam, you all would have gotten silver stars. And I remember at the time going, and sure enough, looking at it back on hindsight, he's right.

That's exactly what would have happened. Wow. Yeah, that guy who put the fire out didn't get anything, nothing. Didn't get a soldier's medal, didn't, you know, barely got a thank you. It's like, for real? Damn. And their units was real bad about that.

And I'm sure they still are. Like, you know, that Payne got the medal of honor out of the unit. I'm gonna tell you what, for that guy to get the medal of honor and still be alive out of Delta Force, I can only imagine what that guy had to do to get that award. I mean, we're talking about superhuman shit out of that organization to get the Medal

of Honor. Because the other two guys that ever got it went in Somalia, Randy Shugart and Gary Gordon. What they did, of course, cost them their lives, but what they did was so far above and beyond in order to get that medal, it wasn't even close. I remember General Downing came over and he goes, you guys need to put those guys in for the Medal of Honor in Somalia. So for him to get the metal one, I've never met Payne. I love to meet him But for him to get the metal owner and be alive out of Delta Force dude He probably earned it three or four times over The unit like I told you the unit has been real bad about that really bad when I was in Really bad if you're a home, you need to listen to this. When's the last time you checked on your home title?

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this is a guy, Mac V Sog legend. We all just, and I remember I said something the other day. I'm glad Eldon Bargewell was on that roof. There was one other officer, Gary, Gary Harrell was there. He was the troop commander. Eldon Bargewell was there. I'm glad he was there because of his experience. The guy had seen, I mean, he's Mack Vsauge legend. He had a big talk with us and he said, look,

I want you guys to understand something. You're coming back here, you're going to go home, you're going to be with your family, your wives. You guys have done something that's as high as it gets. You need to understand they haven't. So you have to come in and adapt to them, they don't need to adapt to you. What you've done for your country, your country can't ask for more. But You need to understand they haven't done that, they haven't been through what you've been through and you need to go home and adapt to that. They don't need to adapt to you, you need to adapt to them. Remember, he had that talk with us.

I always hung on every word he'd ever say, literally. He would get us together and talk to us in the squadron classroom about whatever it might be and I would pay attention to every single word that guy said. Like I told you, he's the guy before the mission that said, I'm looking at you guys, I recognize you know, everything is going to be okay. You guys are gonna be fine. We're gonna get him out of there. Some of your, I remember him saying some of your buddies may get hurt, but they're gonna be okay.

Man. That's pretty fucking incredible, man. Six minutes. Six minutes, yeah. From when we landed in Col-Ex-ville. Wow. In a prison. In a prison.

Yep. There's a lot of people along the way, like that doctor, that contributed stuff. It's hard to measure how important that was, that intel that doctor gave us. It's hard to measure that. Because we had this, okay, if he's not in that cell, where's he at? We gotta start searching the prison for this guy. So for him to go in there and give us that solid intel,

you know, intelligence on where he's at, what status is, what kind of mental, where kind of mind frame he's at, physically what's he like. That kind of stuff was off the chart. We talked to him too. He came back to the unit when time had briefed us. Damn, man. That's impressive. Yeah, dude, I'll never forget it.

I can tell. Yeah. I get pretty choked up over it, as you can tell. It's kind of hard to fight back the, you know, the emotions. Because there's a few things along there that really bring them out. That's just crazy, too. You know, the apex of your career right off the bat. Oh, I know, dude.

You know, a little over a year after, you know, finishing selection and finished it October of, you know, 88. Six months. Eight, well OTC six months, selection 88, October of 88. And then to follow, you know, fast forward a year, two months, December 20th, 89. Damn. Six months, right? And here's the thing. Remember I told you it was become critical? Thank God I went to selection that fall. Because if I waited to the spring, I'd have missed the whole thing. Think about that. Remember I told you how that became critical? That's why. Because

I, you know, I initially my head was out, wait a year. And then I just said, no, no, no, I'm going to go in the fall. I'm going to do it. Damn. Damn. And everything just fell into place. Where do you go from there? Well, we went hunting scuds in Iraq. I mean, which in itself was awesome, but never to the point of Modela Prison.

How were you guys doing that? Well, once again, Eldon Bargewell saw how things were schooling up in Kuwait, because that developed over a period of time. He had the foresight to go, you know, we need to be doing desert mobility operations. You know, we need to be doing that. So we went on training. Where did we go? Was it Yuma?

No, I think it was 29 Palms. Went to 29 Palms and did desert mobility operations. Training up just in case. We had no mission set. We had no, this is what you're getting ready for. He just said, he had the foresight to go, you know what, we may get in a situation with what's going on over there. We may need to do desert mobility operations to operate behind enemy lines. We need to go train on this. And we went out, had a major exercise training, you know, basically sorting out a lot of bugs, shaking a lot of bugs out,

you know, getting things sorted out so we knew what the hell we were doing. Because we'd done some of it, but nothing like what we needed to be in order to go over and execute in a combat zone. So we went out, shook over, went to 29 Palms. If memory serves me correct, that's where we went. And I could be wrong on that. But regardless, we went into an area out west and worked on desert mobility. He had to force Ike to do that.

He was the only squadron commander that did. B squadron and C squadron didn't see that coming. Schwarzkopf, who ended up of course being in charge of the coalition for Desert Storm, very anti-special ops. Did you know that? I didn't. Yeah, very anti, based on his experience in Vietnam. Kind of saw him as cowboys. Did, was not a fan of SF.

What flipped the script for him was they had Delta operators were his VIP protection detail. Now he had an AIC, he was an Air Force, I think, officer, but all the guys in the detail other than that were all Delta Force operators. And he was so impressed with them and their professionalism that that left an impression on him in terms of what Delta was all about. Then that was one piece of the puzzle. The last piece of the puzzle is when the Iraqis started launching Scuds in Israel. And the Israelis were, I've been told this and this has been confirmed.

I asked some people about this and they said, yeah, this is absolutely what happened. The Israelis were on the airfields ready to launch into Iraq, which would have blown the coalition to pieces. And they said, you guys can stand down. We have our best people going in there to deal with these scuds. And they said, who's that? And they go Delta Force. And they said, and the Israelis stood down. I'd heard that. And I went, and I asked some people in the Department of Defense, up the food chain, said, oh yeah, that's absolutely 100% what happened.

So combine our preparation vis-a-vis Bargewell saying we need to get ready for desert mobility, Schwarzkopf's impression of Delta based on the VIP protection he had. And then the decision from the command authority, the national command authority to send in Delta to hunt for these Scuds, that all lined up and A squadron was back in the lead again. How were you guys hunting Scuds? Went in, got there in Saudi Arabia way up close to the border. We're really close to the border.

Got our ducks in a row, went in via helicopter way deep into Iraq, up by the MSR main supply route. And the theory was they were bringing these scuds down the MSR, they would branch off the MSR, set up and then launch into Israel. So what we did, we went up there, find some places to hide, which was a bitch. Cause most of the terrain up there is as flat as a pool table. So we went up, laid down, laid low during the day.

And when we go down, you know, we would pull down south of the MSR, lay low. Down in some, you know, gullies and whatnot. And then when it turned dark, we would go back up to the MSR, drop off sniper teams. We'd withdraw back a little piece just before sunlight. We go back up, get the sniper teams and come back down to our hide positions. And we did that night after night after night. Did you get any scuds? Yeah, we did.

No shit. At the very end. At the very end. Um, there's a lot of intel after the fact that some of the scuds we saw were actually decoys, but at the very end towards the, you know, at the end of our, to which we were out there 19 days, the group was out there for 19 days doing it. Yeah. We're before the ground invasion ever happened.

We were up there for days before the ground invasion swept in. Towards the very end, we got in a position where we're moving up the MSR. We saw these vehicles kind of coming towards our position at an angle. We stopped, kind of set ourselves up, did one of these numbers, got on binos and whatnot. We go, hmm, this is some Iraqis. We think these guys are coming in with Scuds, getting ready to set up. Sure enough, they were.

Got on the horn to the Air Force. They started bringing in F-16s, the whole nine yards, and started hammering their ass. And they were there for hours and hammering them hours and finally we went we need to get out of here because we just stirred up a hornet's nest we need to split so we took off went back down to our hide spot we were hoping to get a bda bomb damage assessment so we'd go back up and see the debris and what happened.

We never got it because the war basically came to an end. Wow. Yeah. That happened right at the very end of our time there. And then the war ended and basically everything was on a freeze. We were just waiting to get Axe filled. Damn, how long was that after Panama? Oh man, it was 91.

So, 90, 89. So, a year and a half-ish. I'd have to look at the dates, but I'm gonna say a year and a half, maybe not quite two years. What are you doing in the interim? Training? Yeah, training. I remember I went to Philippines for a little bit, half, maybe not quite two years. What are you doing in the interim training? Yeah.

Training. I remember I went to Philippines for a little bit, did some VIP protection stuff over there, training and whatnot. Doing normal cycle. You know what I mean? The training cycle in the unit type of thing. What happens after Iraq? Come back.

Normal training cycle. And then next thing was Somalia, 93. Fast forward a couple of years. Big event. What's that? Big event. Oh yeah. Well, we had gotten this mission to go over there and hump for a deed in his henchmen, like C Squadron and all of them he did. And we got it. And it was going to be a troop mission, I think. And we had a ship bird commander in A Squadron. I don't want to mention his name but he was a shit bird. And he gave away the mission to C Squadron. And for whatever reason, God only knows why.

He gave away the mission to C Squadron. And I think his theory was, what's a troop mission now, if it bumps up to a squadron level mission we'll get it back." Obviously he was off his meds because like that's ever going to happen. Well sure enough C-Squadron gets it, they start rehearsing it and they go, wait a minute that troop's not bigger enough for this, what the hell? And they bump it up to a squadron size mission and they end up deploying it over to Somalia. I remember people were pretty butthurt over that. I go, let me explain something to you. That was actually

fortunate. They're, what do you mean? I go, just think about October 3rd with our leadership and how bad that would have went. And then went, oh yeah, you're right. I go, C squadron's leadership at the time, much more dialed in, much more squared away than we were at the upper. Now I'm not talking about, you know, troop level, team level. I know what you're talking about. You know what I mean? Just the leadership.

Yeah. We're talking about this leadership up here. We had losers. And I just said, you know, it would have been much worse. Yeah, we're talking about this leadership up here. We had losers. And I just said, you know, it would have been much worse. So did you get over there after that had happened? Yeah, we went over after that to reinforce. Shit, man.

Yeah, we went over after to reinforce. We got there two, three days later. Wasn't long. When October 3rd went down, we got spun up and went over, I mean, quick. And we were there just, it was just a few days later. Yeah, we rolled in to reinforce. Got a debrief on what happened on the third, the whole nine yards. We were there actually for, yeah, the ceremony of the guys who were killed. Did you know those men?

Yeah, I knew all the unit guys, knew them all. Didn't know the Rangers or the Task Force 160 guys, didn't know them, but I knew all the unit guys, absolutely, 100%. How was that? It was pretty spooky. Yeah, it was pretty somber. It was real somber actually. Yeah, it was real somber because it was a pretty horrific event. Yeah. And there's, I know you talked to Tom and whatnot, there's layers upon layers upon layers upon layers of stories that go along with that mission. In terms of heroism that probably should have got the Medal of Honor. Guys who honestly should have performed better, not really in the unit, but in the ranger side, you may have heard some of that, I don't know. There's a lot of nuances to what happened that day, a lot of nuances.

What's happened over time is some of that's been forgotten. But when I was there, it was all fresh and I got it from the guys who were on the ground. And they gave me a lot of information of stuff that went right and went wrong. A lot of lessons learned. Found out that they were basically running those helos doing, they were running them as if they were doing them in low light at night. But instead of looking at it from, hey, wait a minute, we're up here in daylight, they can easily see where we're at and what we're doing. We need to change our tactics

in terms of the helo operations to better reflect what's happening during the day. But they were doing it like as if it was a knife. There was a lot of lessons learned out of that. It was a pretty, I wouldn't say pretty, it was a very horrific event. Yeah, I did a very extensive interview with Tom Satterly, who's a really good friend of mine now and like his account was just... I mean just fucking insane. Yeah, I mean you know the deal. You talked to Tom at length about it. It was horrific. It's hard to really grasp the magnitude or the level of what actually

happened at that time and the impact it had on not only the unit but the Ranger Battalion. It was really kind of hard at this point because we're so far down the road now, hard to at this point because we're so far down the road now, you know, decades now down the road. During that time, it was, you know, it really made the organization, I'm assuming the same with the Rangers, but certainly Delta really had to take a hard look in the mirror. What we're doing right and what we're doing wrong. Stuff as simple as why are we wearing Pro-Tec helmets? Why are we not wearing Kevlar helmets? Why are we not wearing helmets that are protected?

There was a guy in C-Squad that was killed off of ricochet. I don't know if you knew that or not. I didn't. Yeah, he was killed off of ricochet off the wall. They're moving down the street and sure enough, he got killed and went right through his protec. If he'd have been wearing a Kevlar helmet or something protective, probably would have saved his life. Damn.

Runnin' around with black body armor. What's that all about? You're in desert fatigues with black body armor on. So, the unit had to take a real hard look in the mirror and there was some real serious lessons learned out of that. Some real PTSD out of that. Yeah. And you want to talk to them about, yeah. I mean, some major PTSD.

Yeah. Pretty, that was a horrific event. Very horrific. And then I told you, I got over there just in time to talk to a real good friend of mine who kind of gave me his data dump of what happened. And then I said, hey, I'll see you tomorrow. I never saw him again.

He was killed that night. How was it killed? More that mortar round, right behind him. He was outside the hangar. And I remember hearing boom, because we were in a separate hangar. Very close, but separate. A squadron and then C squadron. And the Rangers were still in this primary hangar where they'd been.

And he was outside talking to guys. And a mortar round landed right behind him. And they'd been launching mortar rounds throughout the time they were there. talking to guys and a mortar round landed right behind him. And they'd been launching mortar rounds throughout the time they were there, but they'd always landed down by the beach, way over them. They'd never really be able to vector it in where they'd hit in and around the hangars till that night. And a round landed right behind him.

Like all the guys, as far as I know, all the guys he was talking to all got seriously injured. Like seriously injured. But they all survived. He was killed immediately. This was a good friend of yours. Oh yeah, really good friend of mine. Really good friend of mine. Is that the first friend he lost?

No. Six months prior to that, our mutual friend, we used to shoot competition together, pistol competition. Me, him, and another guy. Our mutual friend six months prior got killed in a parachute accident. Damn. And then six months later, fast forward, and my other buddy's killed. I'd never gotten over that. How do you deal with loss? Just internalize it. Compartmentalize it.

Compartmentalize it. And sometimes it just really comes to the surface. You saw a few minutes ago when the Medela prison talk. It's just hard to keep it suppressed. But yeah, that was a, I'll never forget that year, 1993. I'll never forget it. Lost two of my good friends in a matter of six months span. Never forget it.

And I wish I'd have been there on October 3rd to help those guys out. There's no doubt we'd have made a difference with C Squadron, no doubt. Because here's what happened. We got over there and we said, there was a lesson learned having the Rangers out on the outer perimeter, on the roadblocks. I don't want to rain on the Rangers too much. That's a time for and somebody else to talk you know somebody else for you to interview but as soon as we landed C squadron's like okay Rangers you guys

are out A squadron is gonna be on the outer perimeter. What you guys were doing in terms of security now A squadron is doing. That like as soon as we hit the ground that was decided and then because at that point it was all about getting Mike Durant who was being held you know hostage by the Samolis. It was all about getting him. And we were, dude, you want to talk about ready to, ready to hammer people. We would fly over at night. And we were begging, begging for somebody to shoot at us. Because we'd have come down on them like the pouring rain. I can imagine. Oh, man, dude, you want to talk about Out for Blood? And I've heard scuttlebutt, it was the ambassador or the assistant ambassador or whatever went

and talked to Edede's people about Mike Durant. And they ended up giving him up, as you know, they let him go. But I think he told him, he said, you think October 3rd was bad? Because the Smollies got hammered. I mean, they lost a lot of people. C Squadron, and Rangers, and Task Force 160, they went through them.

I mean, they hammered them big time. I've heard 45 to one kill ratio. Wow. That's what I've heard for every 45 to one. That's what I heard. Because it's interesting, sad, but interesting. Delta, including my buddy, he was killed, including him. Delta lost six operators.

Rangers lost six operators, Rangers lost six Rangers, Task Force 160 lost six guys. Six, six and six were killed over there. But I want to say it was either the ambassador or the assistant ambassador was negotiating with the deeds people and said, you need to give him up because the next time they come in here, it's going to make October 3rd look like a walk in the park. Cause it would have been, I mean, it would have been brutal. Yeah.

Cause there we were out for blood and sure enough, they gave him up. I remember them. I remember seeing him carry him one to the burden. I remember that we were lined up and they had carried him on a stretcher onto the bird for him to get exfil back to the States. Where did you go after Somalia? Back home. I'm trying to remember what I did.

I went over and did a stint as an OTC instructor and I think it wasn't that long after. Pretty sure, well, I take that back now. Bosnia. Yeah, Bosnia. That's where I went. What were you guys doing over there? VIP protection. Commander of S4. Commander of S4, who was Shinseki. I don't know if you knew who that is or not. General Shinseki. Vietnam vet, kind of an Asian guy lost part of his foot from a mine in Vietnam. We liked him. We got along with the guy great.

We really liked working for him. He was a really, really good guy to work for. Fast forward. He was hooked in with the Democrats. I remember Joe Biden, when he was still Senator, came over and had a sit down and went out to dinner with Shinseki. Because from what I understand, Shinseki's daughter, and I could be off base on this, but Shinseki's daughter was an intern in his office.

So he was tight with the Democrats. Fast forward, Obama gets in office, Biden's his VP, they put Shinseki in charge of the VA. Then all that shit comes out where soldiers and whatnot are not getting treated the way they should, and Shinseki gets shown the door. And I remember people talking to me about it, I said, you know what, we love working for the guy, but he was an ass clown for hooking up with the Democrats. And I haven't heard anything from him since. But he was a great guy to work for.

We really liked him. But yeah, we went over and did VIP protection for 90 days. I did. And it was, we rotated. You know what I mean? Other guys from the unit did it, but I went over, my team went over. We had two or three teams doing it,

but we did VIP protection for Sunseki. Where were your other Helo crashes? All right, so the first one was Panama. That's six months after Just Cause. That was the worst. Second one was we were doing desert mobility training and we were in Air Force Hilo before they did away with them. Air Force, I wanna say shortly after that,

just completely got out of the Hilo business, thank God. But we were in the back, we had our vehicle, a Pensgauer, in the back of the bird, and it was, you know, tied down. The crew chiefs had tied it down. And we did a landing in the desert, and for whatever reason, for the life of me, I don't know why the guy did it. The pilots did a rolling landing in the desert. Instead of just sitting it down and stopping, dropping the ramp and letting us get out of there, they sat down and they were doing a rolling landing. Well, sure enough, I mean, it's a desert, bro. It hits a gully or hits a, you know, and it jams the nose wheel right back up in the bird.

So now all of a sudden everybody gets jittery to the front. Thank God nobody was standing behind the Penske or our vehicle because it got slammed up against the bulkhead because the crew chiefs had trapped it down wrong. They'd strapped it down where, you know, it would, it was limited to go that way, but not that way. And it smacked right up against the bulkhead.

If somebody, we were all sitting down. Thank God. If somebody would happen to been standing behind it, they'd been crushed. Damn. And that one was a crash, but it really wasn't. I mean, it technically checks the block for a crash you know but the first one in the third one could have been fatal like that third one task force 160 is down and we're training in Fort Bragg little birds black ops a squadron we're hitting the mount site on Bragg. I think we hit a

site out somewhere else and we had a following mission to the mount site on Fort Bragg, which me and everybody in A Squadron knew like the back of our hands. I could probably draw a schematic to this day. I mean, we just knew it by the back of our hands. Some of the TF-160 pilots didn't know it as well as us. So I was in a little bird. We're coming down kind of, let's say, the east side of the mouse site, right? We're coming down to land, right? Well, we were actually supposed to come in and take a left

down the street and sit down. Well, the bird I was the one overshot the street. Well, instead of just sitting down, he starts to peel off like this. Right underneath Blackhawks, they're coming down. Right, and I knew it. And I was the right front on the pod. Foreman team.

I was the right front on the pod and the bird's doing this. So I'm the closest to the ground. I knew immediately what was going on. As soon as he started to do that, I knew, I knew where we were out on the mount site, I knew where we were supposed to be. And I knew where the Black Hawks were going to be landing. And as soon as he did that, I immediately, right up there, and I saw that bird coming down and I was like, and it's one of those things that happens.

I mean, what are you going to do? And the rotor wash hits us. If he'd have kept that attitude, we'd have went right in the ground. And I was right in the front of the bird. I would have been the first thing that hit the ground. Without question would have been fatal. Without question.

To his credit, he leveled the bird out, and we plowed into the ground flat. That rotor wash kicked us down. I talked to those guys later. They saw us doing that and they were like, whoa. And that bird kicked up. The black hawk kicked up. Rotor wash kicked us down.

And to his credit, he flattened out and we hit the ground or the sand because it's a real sandy area right outside the mountain. We hit the ground or the sand, because it's a real sandy area right outside the mountainside. We hit the sand flat. Yeah. And when we got off, the pods were level with the ground. The bench seats that we were sitting on were level with the ground.

The struts were completely buried in the ground. Damn. And I remember by that time it was my third crash and I was kind of like, for real. Don't fly with Larry Vick? Oh yeah, and it became a joke in the unit, dude. Became a joke. And I remember a guy was behind me. I can't remember who it was, and I was a team leader. It was behind me, and he started to get up, and I stopped him because the rotors were still going. I stopped him, I pulled him down, and stopped him from getting up until the rotors stopped.

We got up, got on the other side, the other guys were fine, shook up, and I said, let's go. Let's go to the target building. And I remember one of the guys said, later, dude, he goes, I was done. I was admin. I didn, let's go. Let's go to the target building and I remember One of the guys said later dude, he goes I was done. I was admin I didn't want to do I go no dude. We're going to the target building We came in and you got in late that damn building was cleared and all that shit and they didn't know where we went They lost track they're like

Where's GT map? We show up and I said, yeah, we went down, we crashed. You're like, whoa. And then we came back to the compound and went back in the A squadron classroom and then the pilots all came in and we just had a big hot wash on what happened. So the first one by the grace of God wasn't fatal and the third one by the grace of God wasn't't fatal, and the third one, by the grace of God, wasn't fatal. Very easily, both of them could have been fatal, just like that.

Yeah, I get it, man. So then you go to OTC. Yeah, OTC instructor. How was that for you? I loved it, because the analogy I had made is maybe not a good analogy, but it was kind of like being a made man. If you are at a standard that they want you to go train the new guys coming out of an organization,

that is, that's like you're a made man. That's, I, to me, that was a big deal. And I'm sure all the guys who ever did it would agree. Tom, anybody who's ever been an OTC instructor would agree. I mean, you're in Delta Force. You have established yourself of such a caliber and such a performer. They want you to go train the new guys coming in out of selection, that to me was a big deal. I'm really, really high on that. I wore that as a badge of honor. How would you treat them going through?

The students? Yeah. Are they candid? Totally professional. Totally professional. I wasn't a dickhead to them, but I didn't cut them any slack either. 100% professional all the time. All the time.

I wasn't a Nazi or anything, but I didn't cut them any slack. Cause I knew firsthand what was needed in that squadron. When they go across the hall, I knew firsthand what was needed, what we needed out of these guys. So if they weren't cutting the mustard or they didn't have the right attitude or whatever, I mean, I didn't cut them any slack, but at the same time, I wasn't a dickhead to them either. What's the instructor student ratio?

Well, it varies because of the OTC class. Remember the one class we had nine? We probably had a dozen instructors, so we had more than one instructor per student. You know what I mean? It really varies depending on the OTC class that comes out of selection. Gotcha. Gotcha. Is this where you wrap up your career? Well, I went back to a squadron as team leader, nothing super eventful. Um, I end up

what the problem is for me, what ended up happening was all these injuries, all that stuff really added up and it took a major physical toll on me. By the time I became a troop sergeant, because I was a team leader twice, before I went to OTC as a team leader, as as an instructor and I come back after being an OTC instructor I was a team leader and then I'm coming up to be a troop sergeant a one troop sergeant and I was a one troop sergeant for a little while physically though I just couldn't do it I couldn't do it I wasn't I knew I wasn't cutting it I just couldn't do it because of the toll that all this stuff had taken

on me. Turns out, had two bone spurs in my lower back pushing on my spinal cord. And we finally got to, and I just knew, I didn't, I knew I wasn't right. And we finally got to the point where we're going to be doing some stuff with the SAS and we're going to have to go up. Caving ladders. You got it. Caving ladder. And I knew I wouldn't be able to do it.

I knew it. And that's when I went to the chain of command, squadron chain of command. I said, I'm going to have to step down. Damn. I'll bet that was fucking hard. Oh, dude, it sucked. It sucked because the sky was the limit for me in that organization. I could have actually been CSM for sure.

No question about it being a squadron sergeant major. No question. No question. That would have happened without question. I'll bet you got a ton of respect over there too. Oh yeah. That was a tough, real tough call. What did they say?

They said, we understand. I said, I just can't. I know I'm not right. I know I'm not right. I just know. And I said, I can't, in good conscience, stay in this position as a troop sergeant major, knowing I can't do the job physically. I can't do it.

So I did it. Normally it's a two year stint. I did it for a year. And I stepped down. I stepped down. Is that when you retired? No. I went up to weapons R&D, which is where the HK416 story comes about. Perfect. Let's take a quick break and then we'll get into that. I'd like to invite you to gain access to an exclusive experience on Vigilance Elite Patreon. Our patrons are the driving force behind the success of this show and their support allows us to keep doing what we do.

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Thank you. Let's get back to the show. All right, Larry, we're back from the break. We're getting ready to get into the 416, but I just reviewed my notes real quick and I just saw a little blurb that says naked in a hotel. Oh yeah. What the hell is this? Okay so this is when at the very end of my career I did my time up in R&D weapons R&D 416 we'll get to that. I ended up

going back down to OTC to be an OTC instructor actually for my second time. This is, I want to say when me and Tom were instructors together. And this is right at the end before I get out of the Army. And we're up at Quantico using the FBI HRT shoot house because our shoot house, this is OTC students we're up there with, our shoot house is down for maintenance, they're rebuilding it. So we go up there. Well, I'm gonna go back before the rest of the cadre

and the students head back, I'm gonna go back to start out processing. You know, I mean, I'm putting in my paperwork, all that jazz. So I get up, we have our hotel room. Each one of us has our room to ourselves. The instructors, I'm pretty sure the students were to the room. But I get up naked, right?

And I go to the door and it's the day I'm checking out. And I'm used to USA Today. This is all pre-internet, you know, pre-iPhone. A USA Today right in front of my door. And I opened up the door and they used to do one of those deals, the day you're checking out, you wouldn't get a newspaper. You know, up till the day you're checking out, you'd get a newspaper, but the actual day you're checking out, you wouldn't get a newspaper, which was bullshit. Well, I'm half awake.

All right, I opened up the door. I noticed there's no USA Today, but right next to me, the door right in front of this door over here, there is. So I go to reach over and grab it, cha-chink, and door closes. And dude, I went from half awake to full awake like that. And I was like, oh my God, I'm out in this hallway and I'm naked.

And dude, my heart's racing. I'm like, what, what am I going to do? So I do one of these scans. I look down the end of the hall and I see curtain, right? You know, there's a window at the end of the hall curtain. I go, okay, I'm going to go down, just idiotic in and of itself, but I'm going to go down, pull a curtain down, wrap it around my body, and then I to go down, which is idiotic in and of itself, but I'm going to go down, pull a curtain down, wrap it around my body, and then I'll go down to the front desk and get

a new key. Yeah, I know. Well, I go down there and I go to grab that curtain and dude, that curtain's on their homes. There is no pulling that thing down. That's completely out of the question. So right beside me is the stairs. So I go down to the stairs.

I think I was third floor. Or second floor, I can't remember. But I went down to the bottom of the stairs, and I can see through the window at the bottom, the door at the bottom. I'm like, right there is the gym, the hotel gym. And there's towels. Like awesome.

What didn't dawn on me until later, I would have needed a key to get in the gym anyway, so you know what I mean? But here's the problem. That didn't matter. That was trumped by the fact that right there was the gym with towels that I could have covered myself up with. Right here was the continental breakfast area. Oh yeah. Nice. Yeah. That's got people in it. So I went, well, I recognized one of the guys I work with, Bruce Goss is in there. He's back

until he's eating breakfast and whatnot. I open up the door, I go, Bruce, Bruce. And he's like, one of these deals. I go, Bruce. He turns around, I go. He comes over, I go, dude, I locked myself out of my room, I'm naked. And he's like, whoa. And I said, yeah.

And he goes, what room you in? I go, whatever, 204 or whatever. He was here, take my key. I'm in room 315. Go to my room. I'll go to the front desk and get you a new key. And then I'll meet you in my room. I go, cool.

So I go up to that hall. I go up to the room. And the hallway, he's on or whatever it was, second, third floor. And I run down to his room and go in. Nobody saw me. Amazingly, because this is breakfast time, dude. Yeah. So I go down there, I'm hanging out.

Sure enough, he comes in, he's got my key. And he said, yeah, I went up to the front desk and said, hey, I need a key for room 204. Why? Well, trust me. I need a key for room 204 to the gal at the desk. And she's like, oh, okay, here you go. He gives me the key. I grab a towel, wrap it around myself. I walk down with the towel right down to the elevator. I open up, get on the elevator, there's a

dude on the elevator standing there, a business guy with his briefcase. I'm standing there. I look up at him and I go, yeah, dude, it's pretty much what you think it is. And then he didn't say a word. He was just looking at me weird. And I got out and went down to my room. Amazingly, nobody actually physically saw me naked. Nice. Nice. Oh shit. Yeah.

Good stuff, man. Lervicker's naked in another man's hotel room. And I, you know, that story's been told so many times and it's like, you know, we all have those nightmares about being caught in public naked and I've actually lived it. Yep, yep. All right, 416. Okay.

So I go up in weapons R&D research and development. I got small arms on my plate. You know, I got a guy who's doing long guns, snipers, you know, whatnot, and I'm doing assault weapons. I'm doing pistols, assault rifles, whatnot. First thing I kick off with is a new pistol, a new service pistol to replace our 1911s. And I had the idea, you know I need to talk to HK about this. Because I had enough interaction with HK to know how they build guns, how they test them. They're without peer. And I thought

you know I need to talk to them about building us a new service pistol, building us an HK 1911. So I line up a trip, go over to Germany. And I meet with them, and I meet with the CEO. And I go, hey, this is what we got in mind, and yada, yada, yada. And they're like, eh, I don't know. Maybe we'll look at it.

You know what I mean? They were on the bubble. Well, I happened to be in the CEO's office, Ernst Mauck, and I looked up on the wall, and he had a schematic of an M4 with a G36 style gas system. And I go, what's that? And he said, oh, that's a concept that we're kicking around the idea on, is putting a G36 gas system in M4. And I go, really, that's a concept that we're kicking around the idea on is putting a G36 gas system in M4. And I go, really? Why is that? And he goes, well, we've read about the crane report. I don't know if you've ever heard it or not.

Crane report where some SEALs had issues with high round counts on M4s, and we feel like that we can address it with a different gas system I went huh why new in the unit we had the requirement for a reduced size m4 carbine style rifle because for CQB close quarters battle the m4 at times is too long it's just simply too big we cut our teeth on the mp5 which is a real easy gun to maneuver everybody loves for CQB problem Is it's basically a big 9mm pistol? So if I step outside and I shoot at somebody down, you know down a street or whatever I'm shooting at him with a big 9mm pistol So, you know, we want our we want to be bringing the 5.56 into combat and we want to bring

it to the battle. That means the M4 carbine, which means a gun that's a certain size, which means in certain confined spaces, it's just simply too big. And they looked at different guns. They looked at the G36C, which is a compact G36, theIG 552 Delta is looking at these and none of them really cut the mustard. Also looked at smaller M4 variants, shorter barrels and whatnot. They had fleas in terms of the gas system was just not applicable if the barrel length is shorter than 14 and a half inches. It's just not a good mix. Has fleas. I knew enough about what we needed, and I knew enough about weapons design to know this

is very possibly the answer. So I said, Ernst, what would it take for that gun to become a reality? He goes, we need a partner. We need an end user partner that's willing to partner up with us and give us feedback for what we're doing right and doing wrong and what we can bring to the market.

I said, OK. And what's that consist of? He goes, we would need some basically Guinea. And I'm using this term, guinea pig guns to work on. So I go back to the unit. Three squadrons are majors are in there. I go okay here's the deal. HK is looking at doing an improved m4 style rifle with a different gas system. What that's going to do for us is that's going to give us a gun that's significantly smaller but still very

reliable. And they go okay and they go what do they want? I said all they want is basically guns to modify and work on to test this theory. And that's it. They don't want any money? I go no, they don't want any money at all. They just need guns that we give to them on loan. They're going to give them back. They're going to modify them, test them, and basically give them back to us for us to use them and give them feedback. And the squadron sergeant majors are like, there's no downside to this. Yeah, 100%. So we run it up the chain. We're going to give them X amount of guns. I can't remember what it was. It wasn't that many, but it wasn't that, but then all of a sudden SOCOM goes, stop. We don't know if legally we can loan these guns to them.

And right then I thought, oh man, we're screwed. This is over. The SOCOM lawyers are going to kill this. I thought we're done. Sure enough, they come back and go, good to go. I was blown away. I couldn't believe it. Now, you can do that because they're US government property.

You can legally do it. It's basically transfer it to them and they'll transfer it back. I still to this day can't believe it. Damn. So we sent them the guns. They modify them with the G36 style gas system, sent them back to the unit, guns run like a champ. I mean from day one, the 416 ran like a champ.

They needed input though on the hand guard rail system, they needed just, you know, it needed some refinement. So we sent them back, give them, you know, and then refinement so we sent them back give them you know and then they finally start making their own guns from scratch not just modifying our guns that we supply them they start making guns from from scratch prototypes still pre-production prototypes the last nut to crack was the rail system because the way the g36 gas system works you really can't take it out the front you have to take it out the back which means in order to get to the gas system to maintain

it you have to take the handguard off. Well we needed a free float handguard that we could take on and off and retain zero for rail mounted lasers. That was like the stumbling block. Mm, or like, dude, this could be a problem. How are you gonna do this rail that you can, you know, unbolt, take off, maintain the gas system, put it back on,

and the laser maintains zero? Yeah. And I was like, man, I don't know if they're gonna be able to do this. This might be too much. Sure enough, it's HK. I mean, these are the people, remember, the Germans got us to the moon. Sure enough, they come up with the rail system and we tested it out at the gun site, as a

matter of fact. They came out with desert testing. We did desert testing out there. We came and attended the testing with them and tested the rail coming on and off and retaining zero with laser. No shit. Yep. And now that rail system obviously has been hugely successful in the 416.

The other people like Geisleys copied it in terms of how his rail goes on and is attached. Yeah. in terms of how his rail goes on and is attached. Yeah. I mean, I use the 416 a lot. Love that weapon. Yeah, and it's been a huge success now. Really, it was a big shot in the arm for HK.

Big shot in the arm. Now the German military is using a variant of them. It's now their current, it replaced the G36 or is replacing the G36, a variant of the HK416, huge success, huge success. As far as I know, I can be wrong, but it's yet to lose a trial anywhere in the world. Wow. The French adopted it, the Norwegians adopted it. now the Germans have, it's yet to lose any kind of a service rifle trial anywhere in the world, as far as I know.

Wow. That's pretty badass, man. Yeah, huge success. I did not know you were behind that. Yeah, really it was a partnership with me and Ernst Mauck. You take either one of us out of the equation and the gun wouldn't exist. We were the parents of the 416. Ernst Smalke on HK side and me on the end user side. That is badass. That's badass. I love that weapon. Awesome. Yeah, it's a great gun. Fantastic weapon. So when did you get out?

Fantastic weapon. So when did you get out? I got out really in the 03. Technically beginning 04, but I was on terminal leave. So might as well say that, you know, very beginning of 04, I got out. Got out 04. I went to work for HK for a while. And then I left. I went back to the unit as a contract instructor, OTC instructor for about a year. And then I went and worked for another government agency. And then I went the one my own with Vickers tactical.

What government agency? TOSA. I don't know if you ever heard them or not. TOSA. Yeah, they were technical operations support activity. And it was a GWAT spin-off thing where they were just throwing money. You remember, you know, during GWAT, they were technical operations support activity. And it was a GWOT spin-off thing where they were just throwing money. You remember, you know, during GWOT, they were just throwing money like there's no tomorrow.

What were you doing there? Uh, just helping set up testing and stuff. Okay. Didn't like it. No, it was pretty weak. And then you started Vickers. Yeah. I started Vickers tactical.

Created an entire tactical empire. Yeah. I mean, holy shit, man. Yeah. Yeah. It's went pretty well until recently. Well, what, let's, let's, before we get to recently, let's, I mean, where did you start it, what was, what was the premise at the very beginning?

Training. Um, people have reached out to me for training. Hey, will you come do this class? Will you come do that class? And it was growing. And I thought, you know, this could go take off. And I had other people saying, hey, dude, you need to make a go of this. And what really gave me the ability to do it is my military retirement. I knew I had my mortgage covered from my military retirement. And that's, if I didn't have that, I don't know that I would have had the balls to do it. But I knew my military retirement covered the mortgage and then some.

And that gave me the initiative and the balls to do it. What was it like for you training civilians after coming out of the, the premier unit? Well, that's the unit Delta is so unique in that regard. It's really hard to compare that. You just, you have to set them aside. Yeah. I mean, you really were able to do that though.

A lot of, there's a lot of guys that get into the training game. I mean, after, after, after service, I mean, I was one of them. And I mean, it's, it's hard to switch your mindset. It took me a while. I was pretty rough around the edges, as you can imagine. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, I do. I was pretty rough around the edges. I had to really adjust my train of thought. It got to the point though, as I did it, the more I like training civilians. Because a couple of reasons. One, because they were paying for it.

In many cases, they were much better students. They would pay attention and apply themselves much better because they were the ones writing the check. Versus Mill, L.E., somebody else, you know, taxpayers write in their check and are like with exceptions I mean you get some mill le guys were rock stars yeah I know what you're saying you know what I'm saying they you know what I found if you don't mind if I mean if I share a little bit of what I found was you know I've really liked doing these all women's courses really yeah

because the ego is fucking gone. I mean, you get, you know, you get guys coming in and they're like, Oh, I've been shooting since I was eight. And it's like, cool. You're probably shooting wrong since you were eight. And I saw like a lot of people that it's like they regret not going to war. Oh yeah. It's like they regret not going to war. Oh, you know and and instead of just learning they have to

They have to throw their ego into it and Compensate for whatever they feel like they're missing out on in life And I started doing these all women's courses and what I found was like there was a lot of like battered women who had been raped and a lot of like battered women who had been raped and sexually abused and beat on by their husbands or their boyfriends or whatever. And they would come in and I mean, just like terrified, just a rack of pistol slide and I got them pretty damn proficient in one day. I mean, shooting good groups at 10, 15 yards and no, and to watch a woman that has been through any type of abuse that I just listed off, you know, very, very shy, very timid, scared, and then to watch them leave with that empowerment, like, I know how to

work this fucking gun and I know how to use it. And that was very rewarding for me. That was the most rewarding experiences that I had in the firearms industry was watching women leave those courses, knowing that that's not going to happen again to them. Cool. But, and like I said, I think, and they were great students because they didn't have any egos. They were just, they were just there to learn, to learn firearms proficiency, specifically

in pistols. And it's really like, it was really a fucking cool, rewarding experience to see that empowerment. But, but so you, who were you training? Oh man, everybody. I mean, across the spectrum. And some women's classes, not many. I have women sprinkled in my classes, but by and large it was men, a lot of civilians, some mill sprinkled and a fair amount of LE. Not so much the LE agencies, but individual

LE officers in my classes, two, three here, one or two, you know what I mean? So really kind of across the spectrum. Mainly pistol, also carbine, but really it boiled down to mainly pistol. That's really where it ultimately boiled down to. Mainly pistol training. And you know one thing, I'm kind of known in the 1911 world, building 1911s and teaching people how to build them and all that jazz, but one of my specialty classes became the 1911 class became a 1911 specific class teaching people how to use them how to detail disassemble them how to maintain them how to troubleshoot them net man I did that class more than I can times more than I can count man I remember watching you when I was getting

started that was just like, fuck man, I hope one day, maybe one day I can get to that level and you know, I never did but I mean, it was truly inspiring. I mean, what was your first product that you developed other than the Force 16? The sling with blue Force gear. That's what I use, man. I have that on all my AOs. God bless you. I'm not bullshitting you, like I fucking love that sling with Blue Force gear. That's what I use, man. I have that on all my AOs. God bless you.

I'm not bullshitting you. I fucking love that sling. That's been, was my first product. Absolute Grand Slam home run. Scale 1 to 10, it's a 15. It's been a huge success for me and Blue Force gear. Close personal friends with the owner, Ashley Burn said. I mean, that was the first product and just set the standard. for me and Blue Force gear, close personal friends with the owner, Ashley Burn said,

I mean, that was the first product and just set the standard, set the standard. Second would be the Glock Tangle Down parts. Jeff Cahill, Tangle Down, personal friend of mine. Way back in the day, I started seeing different things that was needed for the Glock. And one is an enhanced magazine release. And that was the first Glock part I came out with.

Slightly extended with rounded edges. No shit. That was you? Yep. That particular one. Now, there's other ones on the market. But the Vickers tactical tango down one, yeah, came for me. And we molded it.

We set up and molded and did it. Now we got it. I don't even know how many skews now. Slide stop, slide rack or base plates, a lot of different skews for the Glock. And that's been another Grand Slam homerun. We've been doing those for quite a while. We've expanded out into other pistols, but the

Glock rules the world. Yeah. Glocks rule the world. So that's been by far our biggest seller. Um, next been really good friends with Paul Yeah. Glocks rule the world. So that's been by far our biggest seller. Next, been really good friends with Paul Bafoni of Bravo Company. Been a brand ambassador for him. He sponsored my YouTube channel for years.

Product development with him, still on board with him. Great, great guy. One of the best people in the entire firearms industry. Fast forward and I hooked up with James Rupley with Vickers Guide. And that's been another Grand Slam home run. We kicked it off 2015 and now we got, Scott was asking me, now I think about 11 titles somewhere in there. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Yeah.

Wow. You know what I mean? It's been a home run with James. He does the photography and he's co-author with me as well. He lives here in Nashville. No shit. Yeah, sure does. Man, you gotta link me in with the Bravo Company guy.

Oh, no worries, dude. I can't find him. Where the hell do you even get him? I can't find him. What do you need? Do you need a gun or? I need an AR. Oh yeah, worries, dude. I can't find him. Where the hell do you even get him? I can't find him. What do you need? Do you need a gun or? I need an AR. Oh yeah, I got you.

I mean, I got a lot of ARs, but I don't have a Bravo AR. Okay. I'll hook you up. Yeah, man. I'll tie you in. Cool. Please do. I'm being serious.

Yeah, no worries. I got you covered. I'll hook you in. But, man, you have really crushed that game. Yeah. I mean, you are like the guy when it comes to all of that stuff. I appreciate it. How long did it take you to grow it into what it is?

Fifteen years. Fifteen years? Yeah. How long has the company been alive? 05 to now. 20 years. But to get it really, 20 years now, but to get it really where it was hitting on its all cylinders, 15 years.

What's your favorite part about it? Is it innovating or is it training? Both equally, I would say both equally. Yeah, I would, I'd say 50-50 mix. How many people do you think you've trained? Oh, I did a math on it a few years ago and it was over 5,000. Holy shit. Yeah, over 5,000. I did the math. I sat down and conservatively, you know, I was conservative. I didn't. I didn't blow it out of proportion, but okay, X number of classes over X number of years, X number of students, yada, yada, yada, and 5,000 students. Wow. Wow. That is a lot of people, man. Mainly civilians, bro. Mainly civilians.

And then some of those civilians multiple times, some of them will come back for the same class. Over and over. Pretty cool. Pretty cool. And so now you're in a little bit of hot water. Oh yeah. My...can't talk a lot about it, but I want to talk about how it came about. Okay. Cause it's still ongoing. Like a lot of legal, you know, the deal.

Oh, I know the deal. Yeah. So it came about, my greatest asset became my greatest weakness. Meaning my ability to hyper focus on firearms, really delve in, really just absorb everything that comes with firearms, allowed me, it led me down a pretty dangerous path. Like I started violating rules, laws, regulations, and whatnot, knowingly doing so. In order to feed this demon over here, I started doing stuff over here that I shouldn't have been doing. And knew it, but you know what? Felt like I'd never get caught. Felt

like I'd never get caught. And sure enough, August, 2021, I got caught. What happened? ATF rolled in the house in North Carolina, Huntersville, North Carolina, rolled in and seized my guns. And it was a trickle down effect from somebody else. And it's like I said, it's still ongoing, it's still a sticky mess. So I can't really go into details, somebody else and it's like I said it's still ongoing it's still a sticky mess so I can't really go into details but it wasn't me specifically it was a trickle-down and I was down the food chain and they rolled in on me and had me does the rights damn so I ended up um I remember reading about this shit yeah

I thought it was all I was like it's probably just some fucking internet. No, it was real. It was real. Unfortunately too real. Damn. October 23, I pled guilty to counts. Counts of what? Illegal importation of a firearm and violating an Obama executive order. And both of them are ongoing. I mean, both of them. Obama executive order.

And both of them are ongoing. I mean, both of them. You're talking October 23, my attorney said, you most likely will not be sentenced in 2024. I go, really? He goes, no, I'm serious. Now he's saying he may not be sentenced to 2026 or even 2027. Holy shit. Yeah. So now, really what Bull's down to is, I talked to him at length, as you can imagine.

And I could have fought it, almost certainly would have lost. Almost certainly. He said, Larry, it would cost you a tremendous amount of money. A tremendous amount of money. Might even bankrupt me. And it would have just dragged my family through hell. Even more hell than they've already been through. So I went ahead and I went ahead and pled.

Couple things. We're actively pursuing a pardon. And we're also actively pursuing getting my gun rights back. Because you've probably heard a little bit about that. Have you heard about the AG, Pam Bondi? You heard about that stuff? No, I haven't. She's came out recently, and I'm talking within the last couple weeks, and I'm paraphrasing

here. My attorney would be better able to relay this saying that if you're a nonviolent felon on a case by case basis, you can get your gun rights back. And you appeal directly to the AG's office to do so. Have you done that? And we're in the process of doing it right now. Getting the paperwork. When will it be done? What's that?

When will it be done? The paperwork soon. Cause it's really not that extensive. Uh, I gotta get three letters. I got my three letters lined up. One's from Kurt Muse. So I've got a couple other guys lined up, officers I was in Delta with. So I got those three letters and then we're going to combine the package together and send it in. We're trying to, I'm really casting the net out and I was telling Scott on the way, trying to find anybody that might be able to get

us in, because what we don't want is we submit it and just goes into a black hole. You know what I mean? Yeah. That's what we're worried about. We're trying to prevent that. If there's any way to at least get it, we know it's going to get in front of the AG or get where it needs to go. That's what we're trying to do.

Pardon paperwork, same thing. That's much more extensive. The pardon paperwork is, it's no joke. It's much more extensive. So we're working on that. We've tabled it temporarily to get the gun rights paperwork done, get it sent off, and then we're going to get back on the pardon paperwork. And then we're same thing, casting out, you know, fishing lines, whatever, to try to get it in front of the president.

That's where we're at. Hoping that my service to the country is gonna buy the goodwill to evade, you know, hopefully get a pardon. I got somebody I want to connect you with or try to connect you with. Okay. That might be able to help. I appreciate it, dude. My pleasure. More than I can say.

All I can do is ask. Oh yeah, for sure. I don't want to say his name on here, but. Yeah, no problem. But he's pretty high up there and he's definitely got a lead in there. So yeah. But yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

It's on me. I have to take it. You know, it's, I'm the blame. What are you potentially facing? You know, we don't know. I mean, potentially five years, a million dollar fine or whatever, but there's so many variables to it. I've asked my attorney that countless times. Jerry Rooter is my attorney.

Jerry with a G, Rooter with a T out of Baltimore. But he, I've asked him, he goes, Larry, there are way too many variables to deal with here to be able to accurately tell you that. So I'm preparing for the worst, hoping for the best. So the worst will be five years and a million dollars. I guess. Ish.

You know what I mean? I don't know. I've really thought it through and God only knows. And he legitimately tells me because I've asked him more than once, Jerry, what do you really think I'm facing here? He goes, I'm telling you, Larry, there's just so many variables. We really cannot get a handle on where, where this is going to go for him. Damn, man.

So, I mean, he, he was right before he said, you, my guess is you will not be sentenced in 2024, it'll be 2025 before you're sentenced. Damn. And now Trump getting in office, that throws everything up in the air. Because now the people that would probably be coming after me from the Biden administration or the Biden appointees are gone. Yeah. So now Trump getting in just changes everything. Brings pardon on the table,

brings getting my gun rights on the table. What did you import? Did you say that already? Illegal importation of a firearm. What was it? Basically, I doctored, for lack of a better term, I conspired with people to doctor up paper. Now I'm just being, you know, I'm kind of winging it here. I get it. Doctored up paperwork to bring in different guns from my collection. It wasn't for, you know, just sell them to the cartel or MS-13 or nothing.

It was for my collection. It's like I told you, I fed this demon over here. Addicted to guns. Addicted to guns. Well, how many guns did you have? Oh, at the peak, 700, or excuse me 650 650 yeah where the hell do you put them all oh dude they just got stacks I had two rooms this size full holy shit man 650 you sure all no what was your most prized FGg-42 what is that?

World War two German paratrooper rifle damn yeah foster major Gavir 42 FG 42 Yeah, that was my most prized made approximately six thousand during the war uber rare well uber rare worth The price of a you you know, nice house. Damn. Yeah. FG 42.

I had a type one and a type two. There are two different types. Wow. I had a type one and a type two FG 42. Now sold off a lot of the collection after I got cancer. I sold off a lot of the collection after I got cancer. My wife said, hey, what if you die from cancer and all this stuff gets dumped in my lap? What am I going to do?

And I went, you know what? She's got a point. Because like my buddy Ken Hackthorn said, you will always get more for your guns when you're alive than when you're dead. Now, you know, I took that to heart. So I sold off. Oh, man. 80% now. 75% you know, 60, 75% of my collection. I sold it off in order to put money in the bank for the family in case I died from cancer. Where'd you get cancer? I'm confident from the unit.

I'm running out of time in the army. I'm confident. Can't prove it. There's been so many guys from the unit that have had cancer, died from cancer. Yeah. A lot. It scares the hell out of me, man. It's like every day, you know, I got another buddy

or a friend of a friend or it's just every day, man. Somebody else is getting cancer and with war vets, I mean, it's just, you don't even know where the shit comes from. It's just all these weird cancers keep popping up. I interviewed a friend of mine, Chris Fettis, and he was saying that he thinks that, or not that he thinks, there's been some studies

that say that it came from the jammers, for jamming frequencies, for the IEDs and shit. I mean, it's just, I just got the screening couple weeks ago. Oh yeah. Scared the shit out of me. I'm cancer free right now. But yeah, the anticipation for that was, so what did you get?

Follicular lymphoma. What is that? Basically a blood disease. And honestly though, it's like a friend of mine said, if you're going to, he had leukemia, but he said, if you're going to have a cancer, you got one that you should, you know, to have, obviously you don't want cancer, needless to say, but if you're going to have a cancer, you got one of the ones that have very treatable, very treatable. Be good now? Oh yeah. In remission. My doc said I have fantastic cancer doc in Charlotte, Mike, my doc said I have fantastic cancer doc fan in Charlotte, fantastic.

Um, you know, no Vaughn healthcare services. I mean, just fantastic care. Um, and he told me the, the lymphoma you have is treatable, not curable. He goes, it will eventually come back. He goes, but if it does, we treated him. it will eventually come back. He goes, but if it does, we treat it again. And he goes, it might be five years, it might be 20 years, you never know.

You may never come back. You may end up taking it to the grave. But he said, it's very treatable. It's not curable, it's treatable. And he said, it's like cockroaches. He gives an analogy. You have cockroaches, He gives an analogy. You have cockroaches, you turn on the light in the room, they start to scatter.

You might kill a bunch of them, but you're not going to kill them all. And he goes, and that's what it's like with Flicula and Foma. Well, I'm happy to hear you're doing better, man. Yeah. Oh yeah. Total remission. You know, had stem cell transplant. And here's the great thing,

it completely wipes out your immune system. I mean, completely, as if you're a newborn baby. I had to have all my immunizations from when I was a little baby up till now. Had a, yes. Dude, I got over my needle phobia. I remember having six shots in one day. I mean, you name it, measles, mumps, the whole nine yards.

Did you go out of country for the stump cell? No, it was here. It was here? Yeah, it was in Charlotte at the Novant facility, Novant cancer facility. Stuff's working wonders for people, man. Oh dude. Magic. Really?

My cancer wasn't that big of a deal. I got nauseous. I lost weight, fatigue, but it really, there wasn't really any pain. I mean, I hate to say it, but it really just wasn't that big of a deal. Well, that's a good thing. And you're married? Yeah. Man, I didn't see I didn't want to I've been the world's worst dad the world's worst husband. I mean I've straight up What do you say that I just? Neglected the wife should have never I Mean, I've just done it wrong. I really have I've just been I haven't been a good father to my son

My dad was very standoffish. I've been the same way to my son. I just haven't been a good, to be brutally honest, brutally honest, I have not been a good husband or a good father. Are you improving? I'm trying to. How old is your son? 22. And he's had some real struggles. And you know, not all my fault, but definitely I've contributed to that. I'm trying to improve and be better. But if I had to, you know, big chink in the armor is I have not been the husband or the father I should have been. I can't sit here and lie to you. I'm not gonna lie to you. That's why we brought up the legal stuff. I'm not gonna bullshit you. You know what I mean?

What would you say to your son right now? I love him. And I really want him to do better. He's more on the right track now than he's been for a long time. He's had some real personal struggles. But he's on the right track now. I'm finishing college and whatnot. Just tell him I love him and I want him to continue on the same path he's on now. Are you proud of him? And keep the faith. Oh yeah. Yeah, he's a good kid. He's real smart. Real smart. He

just had some real struggles. And like I said, not all my fault, but I've definitely contributed to it. Not by it, by not being the dad I should have been. You know, I should be. And you're still married? Yeah, still married. It's been real rocky. You got anything you want to say to your wife? Yeah, I love her and I apologize for being the, you know, the improper shitty husband that I, you know, I should have been. I, she deserved a hundred times better than what I've been for sure.

I provided her a good lifestyle. She lives very well, but you know, that doesn't compensate for, for not being there emotionally, not being there supporting her from that point of view. So yeah, she lives very well, drives nice cars, lives in a nice house. But you know, there's a big void on the other end of that, that I've, I've not filled. How come you don't wear a ring? We're kind of on the other end of that that I've not filled. How come you don't wear a ring? We're kind of on the outs right now. I'm sorry to hear that.

Well, I appreciate it. Yeah, we're kind of on the outs. And I'm not a big ring guy. I've never been a big ring guy. Even when we were getting along, I didn't always wear it. That's why I wear this unit ring, but God knows when I'll wear it again. What's the story behind the unit ring? Well, if you're in the unit and you basically have served, you know, honorably, you get the opportunity to buy your own ring.

If I remember correctly, it was 300 bucks. I could be way off. Um, but yeah, you can say, Hey, you can go buy your own unit ring. And then you set the stone color and then, you know, platinum or whatever you want and get gold and there's a few different flavors. It's the kind of like a, um, you know, a high school ring or a college ring is really what it is. And then you set your dates in terms of when you came in and when you left.

Mine's 88 to 03. That's pretty cool. Yeah. And Uber rare, Uber rare. I, we, me and Scott, my buddy who came up here with me, we're trying to find it on the internet and you can't even find a picture of one. That's cool. They're that rare.

Your guys got to pick. Oh yeah. Your crew got to pick of it. Oh yeah. They're, they, uh, they love time pieces and and sentimental stuff, man. They love that stuff. Everybody does. Oh yeah, 100%. Everybody's, uh, I never envisioned you to be a ring knocker. No, I'm not. Just kidding man. That's the Academy guys. Now Tom didn't have one or did he not bring one I guess or did you say he didn't? Man, he may have had one but he didn't tell me what it was.

I don't know. I wasn't paying attention. Well, I purposely wore it so you could check it out because I knew you'd appreciate it. I do. I purposely wore it. Thank you. Thank you. Alright Larry, we're wrapping up the interview, but I got one thing and I wanted to I wanted to wait until the end to ask this. OK. But I've got a Patreon account and Patreons. It's a subscription service that we have. I started at the very beginning when I was doing firearms training

and it's grown into like this. Really fucking amazing community and they're the reason I'm here and the reason you're here and so one of the things I do is I Offer them the opportunity to ask each and every guest a question. Yeah, and so this is from Eric Alger What do you want the next generation of warfighters to learn from your story? Ooh, man, that's a good question. I would say if anything, try to always think outside the box. We didn't necessarily hit directly on that in our interview,

but there was a lot of elements of that that we talked about. Try to always don't get set. I learned that from Eldon Bargewell. I've learned that from other guys. Don't get set in your ways to the point where you're no longer think out of the box. And Delta to their credit, that's kind of a motto they've always lived by. Yeah, don't, you know, you know, try not to get locked into one particular thing. Try to always think out of the box. Man, that's the way I live my life, not just in that type of community, but just throughout my entire life and business and everything is not only think outside of the box, but what fucking box? Yeah.

There is no box. That's right. What box? But, and if you don't mind, I'd like to add something, man. Yeah. Because when I think of your stories and your experiences in Delta, contingency planning. Boy, ain't that the truth. Contingency, contingency, contingencies. And you could never have too many of them.

No, you can't anticipate the worst because it's probably gonna happen. Well, Larry, I wish you the best of luck in your law stuff. I appreciate it. And I hope I'll be praying for you, man. Thanks, man, I definitely appreciate it. And probably even more importantly than that, I just wish you the best of luck with your family. I hope everything works out. Yeah, thanks a lot. And I hope you reach that wish. Yeah, I just wish you the best luck with your family. I hope everything works out. Yeah, thanks a lot.

And I hope you really... Yeah, I need to come clean on that. I could have just sat here and, oh yeah, everything's fine, but I'm not going to do that. You brought me up here as a guest. I greatly appreciate it. I've had a great time talking to you. Fantastic time. The last thing I'm going to do is bullshit you and lie to your face.

Thank you. Thank you Alright, Larry. It was an honored interview. Hey, thank you, bro. I greatly appreciate it. Fantastic time. Fantastic. Cheers Thanks, brother. Thank you Former MLB All-Star Sean Casey, aka The Mayor, keeps hitting it out of the park. Take my 30 years of experience. Take the wisdom and knowledge I've learned from the failures when I got sent down my rookie year, all the injuries I had to overcome. Your mind is the most important tool you have in life. Be relentless. Keep charging. It matters how you talk to yourself,

how you look at the world. That matters. We talk about that. I don't know, I'm fired up, baseball's back, and it's going to be incredible. I love it. The Mayor's Office with Sean Casey from Believe. Follow and listen on your favorite platform.