Shawn Ryan Show - #228 David Rutherford - Navy SEAL & CIA Contractor

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

David Rutherford is an internationally known motivational speaker, best-selling author, world-championship performance coach, and award-winning podcast host. He is also a former Navy SEAL Medic and Instructor who served for eight years in the NSW community. After his honorable discharge from the Teams, he went to work for Blackwater as an international curriculum development and training specialist. In 2005, he launched his motivational performance company, Froglogic Concepts, to initially help children develop resilience and confidence. In 2008, David was recruited to work for the CIA as a curriculum and training specialist for two years. He then went on to become operational for the agency as a security threat and protection specialist. After hanging up his kit in 2011, he kick-started Froglogic Concepts again. For over a decade, David and his Froglogic message have reached over 50 million people worldwide as a top motivational speaker, performance coach, podcast host, and author. Some of his notable successes include his role as a motivational performance coach for the 2018 NCAA World Series champions, the Oregon State Beavers baseball team, and the World Series Champion Boston Red Sox. He is currently working with a top asset management firm with over $200 billion under management as part of their advisor consulting group. He also continues to work with top college and professional athletes and teams. David’s passion to help people has also been focused on supporting veterans’ charities. For the past decade, he has assisted seven different veterans’ charities to raise awareness, money, and support for struggling vets. For the past two years, David, Jana, and Chris have been developing the Operator Syndrome Foundation. Due to the continued increase in SOF veteran suicides, they decided to start their own charity to target the specific needs of individuals and their unique medical and mental health issues. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://betterhelp.com/srs This episode is sponsored. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/srs and get on your way to being your best self. https://americanfinancing.net/srs https://tryarmra.com/srs https://aura.com/srs https://shawnlikesgold.com https://ketone.com/srs https://patriotmobile.com/srs https://ROKA.com https://USCCA.com/srs https://ziprecruiter.com/srs David Rutherford Links: Website - https://teamfroglogic.com | https://www.davidrutherford.com X - https://x.com/teamfroglogic IG - https://www.instagram.com/teamfroglogic LI - https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-rutherford-84256811 Froglogic Institute - https://www.froglogicinstitute.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

David Rutherford, my best friend. Welcome to the show. Sean, my best friend, thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. Honor is all mine. Honor is all mine. Been a long time coming, man. It's difficult to quantify that time, isn't it?

Well, a lot's happened in that time, and, you know, we'll cover. most of it but um i just want to say man i love you so much and our lives have been so intertwined since about 2002 and um i mean you put me through sqt we contracted together at cia you introduced me to my wife you married us we've got a lot of history together You've got a lot of history. A ton. And it's just such a huge part in me and my family's lives. And our families have become close.

And I love Johnna so much and your girls. And I'm just really thankful that you're here, man. I appreciate that. The feeling is mutual, for sure, in deep, deep ways. And you're the first guest in the new studio. Number one. I was really hoping that would happen. But, and now it's here.

So you ready? Yes, sir. Let's do it. Everybody starts off with an introduction. Dave Rutherford, founder of Frog Logic Concepts, a motivational training company with clients like Bank of America, UBS, and Merrill Lynch. You expanded into sports and supported Oregon State Baseball's 2018 College World Series win and developed a leadership program for the Boston Red Sox and Mookie Betts MVP Quest. Former D-1 lacrosse player at Penn State, former Navy SEAL served eight years in naval special warfare,

including a combat deployment to Afghanistan in 2002. CIA contractor who deployed multiple times to high threat zones like Afghanistan, in Pakistan, author of two children's books and one adult book on self-confidence, hosted the David Rutherford Show under the Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Network, husband Dejana, father of four teenage girls, you run a charity focused on operator syndrome, and most importantly, you're a devout Christian. Like I said, this is the most personal interview I'll ever do. And once again, it's just a real honor to have you here to be the first guests in the new studio.

But most importantly, man, like I said, I just love you so much and our lives are so intertwined. And this is going to be big. I love you, too. Everybody starts out with a gift. Fired out. You get any guesses? Yeah. What do you got?

Yeah, I want some full-blown THC gummies. I don't want the legal in 50s. I want the legit ones. Maybe you'll get the legit ones after, but those are the legit vigilance elite gummy bears made in the USA, legal in all 50 states, unfortunately for you. But you can take those on the plane back to Florida,

give them to your girls. These things are going in my studio right up there, right next to my desk, man. Right on, man. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. You're welcome, and I got one other gift for you. I personally picked this one.

Oh, my God. Nobody's gotten this yet. Oh, dude. Oh, you're kidding me. That is the Sig Sauer 211 GTO at SIGSauer's 2011. It's been a long time coming, and I love that thing. The weight is perfect. Nine millimeter comes with her updated optic.

Oh, my gosh. 21 in the magazine, plus one in the pipe, so 22 rounds. Wow. Maybe we can break that bad boy in today. I think we should. I think we should, definitely. Can we do the upside down one? We can do whatever you want.

This is beautiful. Thank you, man. You're welcome. You're welcome. This is absolutely just a phenomenal gift. Yeah, I need this down in Florida, because Florida man's down there. The Florida man. This is beautiful.

Thank you. Have you ever been the Florida man? You know, I've, there's been one or two stories where you could have, you could have called me Florida man for sure. Yeah, like, yeah, for sure. Would you mind if, if I gave you a gift, too? Yeah. Yeah. I love gifts.

All right. It's my love language. For sure. I just, you know, sitting in this chair is, one, just the magnitude of what you've brought to the industry and what you've brought to so many people in this chair and what you've given them and what you have given so many other people, their families and their stories that will live for eternity. And as you said, our lives have been so intertwined that I wanted to give you something that had a representation of that. And so thank you so much.

This piece. My daughter, Blair, did most of all the pastel work, and then I drew the operator. And up here, this is supposed to be your daughter, looking over the horizon where pieces down into the space where I think all of us are always trying to get, which is to clear out some of that white light. that Christ gives us in the midst of hell. And, you know, I remember being in the teams. We, they always would say, all right, in case of glass, but break war, in a case of war, break the glass. And so I put a little plaque on the bottom that said,

because of war, the soul is broken glass. And our journey has gotten us to this. And I think there's some peace in our lives finally. And it's through our families and through our children and through our faith. And so I want to present this to you, brother. I love it. I love it. That's beautiful.

Yeah. If you notice, he's got a little vigilant. A little V tattoo on his arm. Man, that's really special. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome.

Who's handprints? That's Blair's. Because it's that touch in the darkness that we're always searching for, that grounding effect of somebody that can get us through that. Man, I love this. Yeah, man.

look damn good here in the studio that's what i was hoping you'd say for sure thank you're welcome my pleasure should we kick it off with a prayer i think so you want to lead no that's that's all you man this is this is your house that you built and i love when you pray over me and with me all right let's do it yeah man Jesus, I just want to thank you for the opportunity to interview my best friend. It took a long time for me to talk him into doing this. And I just want to thank you for the opportunity. And also, if I could just ask that whatever comes out of this interview and it's going to get heavy, I know it will,

but we just want to bring hope to the world and show that there's a way out of the downward spiral after. after you leave service and we also want to just we want it to help even farther than that we want we want this to bring hope to kids adults anybody that's struggling there's a lot of struggles that Dave has gone through in his life and he just he always finds the way out and I want to I want to use that use Dave's journey to show everybody that there's a way out and so please just please just be with us during this interview and keep us in line make sure we're honoring you and and spread the message in Jesus name amen amen thank you brother all right we got one more thing and then we're getting into it okay so I've got a

Patreon you got a Patreon too don't you yeah and so Patreon's been with us since the very beginning actually before the show even started when we started it in the attic then we moved to the garage and remember those days in town and now we're out here in this beautiful studio and and they're the reason that i get to sit here with you and and that we we were able to do this and so it's turned into quite a community and one of the things i do is i offer them the opportunity to ask each and every guest a question i haven't read this one the team wouldn't let me read it So this is from Gregory Lawton, Dave, with all the trouble Sean has gotten you into over the years. How is it that you've remained friends?

Oh, man, that's a great question, Greg. You're a unique person. And that was something that I've always been attracted to. I've always wanted and inspired to surround myself against people that went against the grain or were different. And you've always been that person from the first time I met you. And there's wild eyes you had when you were 19 years old, man. And there's just something different about you. And then when we reconnected in 2010 and just on and on and on,

And the more, the closer that you've allowed me to get to you, the more I want to be closer to you. You know, you're the closest thing I have to a brother without being my blood. And so if you were like, hey, let's go, you know, drive these motorcycles through that ball. or let's go do this or let's do that, I'd be like, all right, let's go, you know. And I just, it's easy to be your friend. And it's, it's, it's, it's, the hard stuff is wanting to be more in your life, wanting to be with you every day.

And, you know, thankfully, you know, we talk regularly and, and, and you listen and, and you share with me and you help me. And I think when you have that, it's just you're willing to go to hell and back, or in our case, hopefully we'll get to heaven with each other. I hope so too, man. Yeah, man. You know, Dave, I just want to say thank you, man.

And kind of touched on it before when we took a little walk. But, you know, when I left, say, contracting, nobody would give me the fucking time of day, man. Nobody would. and I never really understood it but you were always trying to connect me to people or support what I did and I just feel like I never um I never gave you the credit or appreciated it to the full capacity of it and back then you know I didn't I didn't realize how important connections were and what you were doing but you know

is his life has moved on. I am very in tune with that, and I know what you were trying to do now. I didn't know at the time, but I did know. I know now. And I just want to say thank you, man. You're welcome.

It's just, it's been, like I said, it's just been an honor, you know, watching you grow and watching you become who you are and the impact that you're having on this world. And I just knew it was going to happen. There's just, like I said, there's just something different. about you a lot of history fought together bought each other several times introduced me to my wife married us

you've mentored me and and um just going to be a fucking crazy interview man it is but so what you think of this is your is your legacy piece thank you your wife your daughter their kids, their kids, kids, kids. This is it. This is your life story. Thank you. So we always start off with, where'd you grow up? Man, I grew up in this beautiful little beach town in southeast Florida called Boca Rat, the mouth of the rat.

Yeah. The mouth of the rat. We moved there. I was born in Pompano, and my parents had moved down from Michigan a couple years probably. and born a 72, and they moved to Boca in 73. And it was a dream. It was like, I don't even know, 15, 16, 17,000 people in Boca at the time. It was that small?

Yeah, it was teeny. Boy, how that town has changed. I'm telling you what, there was nothing past military trail, like nothing. And it was wonderful. It was the most idealic place to grow. grow up, you know. And I mean, I remember by the time I'm four or five years old, my, my longest, oldest friend, Richie, you know, we're riding bikes down to the beach and back. And, you know, we're going over to Tomaso's pizzeria and meet my other friend Mark Palermo over there. And

and it was just, you just lived on our old BMX bikes. And we played sports at the local community Center and it was just it was amazing it was really amazing so it was a just a phenomenal place to grow up brothers older brother Eric yeah um really a special human being yeah just an amazing amazing guy you know he was my my idol my hero I think he was the person that really pulled out the artist out of me you know you don't you don't know if who you are what talents you have when you're little and my brother's five years older than me and i just have these vivid memories of sitting around and just drawing with him you know and i'd draw my little army men and my ex-wing fighters and he'd draw these cool animals and you know like lions and and he just had this gift and

it was it was really special um you know he was just an amazing amazing guy for me uh you know up until where kind of his life kind of changed so how about your parents what do they do so my father was an attorney um you know it's funny after they when they graduated michigan you know my dad my mom was pregnant. My dad had a job already, you know, worked at a factory, went to law school, both at the same time. They had a newborn kid. They were just kids themselves. They were, you know, 22, 21, 22 years old. And, you know, it was either my dad's parents had moved out to California and my mom's parents had moved to South Florida. And my dad got hired by a firm in L.A. and hired by a firm in Miami.

And my parents, my mom was just like, I don't want to go out to California. You know, there's too much going on out there. Some of their friends from college had gone out there and struggled. And so they moved to Florida. And, you know, my dad was in the grind. You know, he was a new hire. And so when they decided to leave that move to Boca, my dad with a few other guys, started his own little law firm.

And he was like, thinking of the story is like he was one of 19 lawyers in the Boca Bar, you know, and it was, I mean, this place was teeny. And my mom was amazing, you know, she was a big-time tennis player. So, you know, every day in the summers, I'm going to the tennis courts with my mom and, you know, he's trying to make me love the game and I'm throwing my racket and I want to play. And but like, I just, I was, just followed her around everywhere. And, and, you know, I remember going to the beach. club, you know, not what it is now. It used to be just this teeny little thing over on A1A and, you know, going and eating those creams, right? The orange creams and swimming races

that my brother would win. And it just grew up on the beach and kind of chill. And they were pretty incredible parents. They are still incredible parents, both of them are 80 now and still live in Boca. And like I said, it was, it was a wonderful experience. You know, my dad worked his butt off. You know, he was for when he was trying to build the firm, he was a seven days a week guy. I remember as a kid, we would, you know, most dads are taking their kid and they're going to the field or, you know, throwing baseball or tee ball. My dad's taking me to his office and where he's working on his cases. And he's like, here, take this dictaphone and play with that, you know. I'm sitting there.

recording stupid messages and crawling underneath his desk and and then afterwards we'd go do something fun you know and and but i just it was it was special because they really cared about their community that was i think of all the things about them as a couple that really made the biggest impact for me was how much they loved where they were from they loved their community and you know my mom was in the junior league she's one of the founders of the of Boca. My dad, God, he was big in the United Way. He was on the hospital board. They ended up starting all kinds of different charities in Boca Raton, and they really loved the community. And I grew up with that, and I was proud. I was really proud to be from Boca Raton. I was

proud of my parents. I remember my dad, when we got a little bit older, he started making a little bit more money. He belonged to his first golf club. And poor guy would be like, hey, let's go play golf. And I'd go because I love to drive the golf carts, right? And so I'd do donuts on the golf cart. But then I'd whack or whatever and chuck my club in the whatever. And just, but he would always in those moments, that's when my dad, who's a very intense cerebral guy, he's an intellect. My mom's the athlete, right? She was won a couple state championships in tennis when she was a little girl and, you know, really talented athlete. My dad was the intellect and we would get on out in the golf course and he would, you know, say things to me like, David, you should be a Renaissance man.

And I'd be like, I don't know what that means, but sounds kind of cool. Yeah, that sounds good. Well, I'll be a Renaissance man. Or he'd say like, you know, always be your own boss. and I had no idea what that meant or he'd be like, you know, integrity's everything. You know, and he would give me these lessons constantly. I mean, I remember when I was probably six, seven, or eight or something like that, we would, on Sundays, he would break out a chessboard and he'd set up the chessboard

and, you know, he'd put some cassette tape in, some jazz or, you know, a guy named Philonius Monk, and I'd be like, what the hell is this? You know, and then we'd play chess, and then after that, he'd flip on 60 minutes, and we would watch 60 minutes, you know, and he would always say the world's a bigger place than you can imagine, and it's important to understand what's out there. You know, and I think the combination of that, that wisdom, like, be a Renaissance man, but go explore the world, really kind of settled. then and it played a big role in my young adult life and so they were I think it still plays a

big role in your life I've never stopped like that was the defining influence I think was to pursue that kind of that kind of mentality to look at the world in that capacity were you competitive as a kid oh dude you're competitive now I lived real competitive I lived, eat, sleep, and breathe sports. That was it. That was my thing. And it was, you know, flag football, t-ball, soccer, tennis camp, anything that I could compete on a team with.

And I just gravitated towards it. And, you know, that ended up really, really saving me in multiple ways in my childhood, for sure, was that escaping. into those sports and kind of getting lost and into some of the other things that emerged in my childhood. Saving you from what? My life was about perfect, really perfect, until I was about eight or nine years old. And then my brother, around 13 or 14 and 14, started changing.

When he was 13 or 14. When he was 13, something changed in him. And the household started to change. I mean, and I was just like, oh, I guess he's just a teenager. I don't know, you know. And he was an athlete, too, and big football player ended up being, you know, captain of his high school football team and all that. And but the house changed.

And it really, when he was 15 is when it kind of, I don't want to say it shableness. kind of the bubble that we were living in, but it certainly cracked for sure. At 15, he came out to my parents as gay. And you got to imagine this was 1982 and kind of the height of the AIDS epidemic. You know, there was a real, I don't know, maybe animosity or bigotry. know what the appropriate but you know i think most people were just afraid of homosexuality and they thought if you you know stood next to a gay person then you're gay or you were friends with someone or and i think he was really in this predicament in this small town um came out to my parents

and my parents didn't handle it as best as they could have you know they're from you know Michigan, my mom's from Muskegon, my dad was from Detroit and, you know, very conservative growing up and all of a sudden, you know, your 15-year-old son tells you they're gay, what are you supposed to do and how are you supposed to act? Because there's no playbook for that. I mean, now I think it's so much different. It's so much more accepted and supported, which is wonderful to see, you know, and, you know, people being able to live their lives in that capacity without, you know, without any type of attacking or like there used to be. I mean, it was pretty harsh back in the day for sure. And so for him to come out and then my parents not

being able to know how to embrace it or to get behind him to help him to help navigate, I mean, to live in this space. And in fact, they kind of, they kind of push back on it in a pretty heavy way in order I think their initial concept was to kind of to protect me and so they really kind of mandated that Eric didn't tell me and didn't kind of live wasn't able to live openly as gay and as a result of that I think he spiraled pretty deeply and you know next thing you know he was partying pretty hard and really pushing the envelope and going down to fort Lauderdale And also remember, this is the age of, you know, South Florida in the 80s was cocaine epidemic. That's right. That's right. And he got consumed in that abyss of where he was and didn't know how to break out.

And didn't have, you know, had a few people, I think, in high school that were quiet and supported him of, you know, this person, Sean. And then eventually this woman, Catherine, who's still friends with today, admit at a, He was in the theater and, you know, very wanted to go to theater school and college and wanted to pursue the arts in that capacity, too. He's very artistic as well. How did the household change? What changed? The arguments, the yelling, and his state of mind, it was just, you know, one minute

I had my brother there and then the next, he was gone. And so it was almost... You felt like he was gone. gone. Yeah. Yeah. Why did you feel like he was gone? Did you understand? No. At eight? No. Well, I didn't know then, but 15 is when it really exploded is where just the fighting that they would get into and, you know, he wouldn't come home on weekends or wouldn't his grades would struggle or he and my dad would just go toe to toe over and over and over and over and just screaming. And I, I just was like, what the hell is going on? And unfortunately, for me, I blamed him, which was incredibly difficult. You know, now, our relationship struggled for several decades, many decades, as a result of just me being like, why can't you, you know, why can't you get squared away?

Why can't you fix this? Why can't you bring calm back to our house? And without knowing that it was really about his own frustration and the lie he was being forced to live somewhat. And, you know, for me and him, it almost became non-existence. There was no relationship anymore. At what age did that happen at 15? He was 15 and I was 10. You were 10 years old?

Yeah. Yeah. Have you guys ever mended that? I think we're trying. We're really trying a lot harder. I think me going through my divorce was a moment he really stepped in and was there for me in a big way. And so since then, we've really, really tried to work through it. And I also think, you know, the age of my parents now is another time, you know, when you're, it's like, whoa, they're at this space.

And, you know, he lives in New York City with his partner James. and you know that's there's a gap and they have very busy very focused lives and you know he's in the event business and james is a very successful in the fashion business and and that's their life and so you know as my parents have gotten older it's like hey man i need your help because you know we live just we live about two minutes away from him and and he's been wonderful and so i think now we're really starting to to realize he's he's really really He matured a lot faster than I was because, you know, after he left home at 18, he moved out to California. He essentially didn't come home.

He was done. He was, you know, he had moved out. And the thing that really, I think, triggered his journey in a deep, deep way was when he finally got sober. And he's been sober almost 40 years now. 40 years? Yeah, yeah. He just turned 57 and I think he was like 22 or something like 22, I think. Wow.

And so he's been working on himself. And imagine being in the fashion industry. He wanted to be a model when he was a kid. You know, it's crazy. I did some child modeling when I was a kid. You did child modeling? Yeah, dude. For whom?

Burger King, Skippy Peanut Butter. Burger King? Yeah. Hold on. I got to hear this shit. I've spent year. on this show, pulling back the curtain and trying to reveal what's really happening in this country. And the truth is, there's a double standard here in America.

You see time and time again, people defending themselves, defending their family, and then the judicial system goes after them. It's a double standard. And if you don't believe me, check out episode number three with Don Bradley. That is a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Because it's not just about what you did, believe it or not. It's how the legal system interprets it, and that's why I'm a USCA member. The USCA has over 860,000 members because they know the reality is, after you stop the threat, the real fight begins.

Your membership gives you the education, elite training, and self-defense liability insurance you need for the second fight, the legal one. Plus, every member also gets access to a 24-7 critical response team and attorney network in the event of a self-defense incident. Violent crime happens too often in America. This isn't about living in fear. This is about being prepared when things go sideways. You don't get to schedule danger, and with the world changing so fast, you have to do what you can to protect your family. Check out the USCA's risk-free membership at USCA.com slash SRS. That's uscca.com slash SRS.

Protect more than just your life. Protect your future. Go right now to uscca.com slash SRS. Yeah, yeah. Crazy story, man. How the fuck did you get into bottling? Dude, me and my buddy, Chris, we're riding our bikes in our neighborhood. I drove by, and this woman in this Cadillac, a Mary Kay Cadillac, screams out,

come here, honey, get over here. And I'm like, what do you want? And so we go over and she goes, have you ever thought about modeling before? And I'm like, could you imagine if that happened today? No, you're going to jail, right? And I was like, I don't know what you're talking about. She's like, where do you live, honey? And so I, you know, rode a bike and she drove her car and came over and asked my mom.

You know, I think your son would do pretty good in the modeling industry. I'm doing this fashion show at the Boko Hotel, you know, do you think he'll want to be in it? And my mom was like, yep. And next thing you know, I'm walking this runway. I don't even know how old is. I can't picture you doing this at all. Dude, it was crazy. It was crazy.

because then that led to, I got this, she introduced me to an agent down in Miami. Next thing, you know, I went on all these calls. I started getting these commercials. I'm going down. I mean, my sixth grade year, I think I missed 80 plus days of school going to my modeling and doing. Are you serious? Yeah, it was crazy. And for me initially, it was awesome because I got out of school.

I hated school, right? I'd be back in time for sports, for practice. and I was making pretty good money. So any Star Wars action figure I wanted or G.I. Joe, I could get it. So we'd drive down. It was hilarious. She'd pick me up from school. You know, we'd go to McDonald's, and then we'd drive down. I'd usually fall asleep.

I'd go do this. She'd drop me off at some studio in Miami. I'd shoot, you know, a print job or something for Burdines or something like that. Or go do a Burger King commercial. and my favorite one was Skippy Peanut Butter. I met Annette Funicello from the old Mickey Mouse Club. That was cool. And then we'd come home and we'd always stop.

And initially we'd stop at toy stores. And I loved action figures, right? And then, or she'd stop at eventually. Then it became the Army Surplus store. There was one in Fort Lauderdale. And when I started becoming fascinated with John Wayne in war movies, probably I was like eight. nine years old. And then I'd, you know, I'd stop and I'd get a ninja outfit or some throwing

stars. And, you know, back then you can only get them in these, these Army surplus stores. And I got to a point one time I was, the closest I got to really kind of being really successful as I was in the final. There was a movie called Cocoon back in the day. And I got to the final is me and the kid who actually moved it went in the movie and he got the role and you know went you know shot this huge movie and you know it was about like alien forces and stuff and you know it was it was cool but right after that it it became you know i became a preteen and a teen and it became uncomfortable at that point and i didn't want to do it i just why did it become uncomfortable i i felt like i was missing out on

my friends and hanging out with them. And I just, I didn't like it. I got frustrated with it, you know, even though, you know, you're making money. Like, I'd rather, you know, be in school, get out of school, go to practice, play in my teams. And it was, it was problematic. And then also, like, when you go on and anybody who's been in any component of the industry, like, there's nothing glamorous about it. You know, you're sick. and then they pin your clothes and you have to sit still for five hours while they shoot all the shoots and get all the shots they want. And I just got to the point. I was like, Mom, I hate this. I don't want to do it anymore. And then that was it. And so I stopped. But yeah, that was right

around probably 14, 13, 14 is when I was like, I'm done. But it was incredible because, you know, We went through a really, my dad's law firm kind of imploded when I was graduating when I was a senior in school. And so out of nowhere, I ended up, I wanted to do a fifth year of high school. And so all that money I had saved up was, I was able to pay for a portion of that experience. And so, you know, it goes back to that idea that you go through these things at certain times and you're not sure what it's going to mean or how it's going to affect you, but it's going to affect you and I think

understanding that the lesson isn't immediate like that's when that stuff started in particular with my brother you know that was I didn't understand what was going on I didn't I didn't get it

I didn't understand why he didn't want to be around me and as a result of that I that's when I really leaned in and started to realize that I wasn't going to get what normal brothers give each other. And so I had to go find it. And probably around it was like 13, 14, where I kind of figured that out. And so I really developed strong, intense

relationships with my friends. And, you know, Richie was one, Chris and middle school and high school and other Chris in high school. And these, they became my brothers. And that was meaningful for me because I just, I didn't have a sibling. And, you know, once he left in 85, he was gone. And he'd come home occasionally, but it wasn't like, oh, hey, Eric, let's go hang out and do things. And then, yeah, so it was, it was, you know, you're in one minute, you're in this idealic world. And then the next, there's chaos around you. And so for me, the way I managed that was I just dove into my athletics and really was like, this is it.

This is what's going to save me. So it was essentially football and lacrosse became everything to me, especially football. Why do you think you and your brother Eric have amended things up 100% by now? That's a great question. It's been over 40 years ago. Yeah. Do you hold resentment? No, not anymore.

I think once John has been amazing, I just for me it was like, what did I do? you know, I think that was what it was for many, many years. I mean, and listen, we couldn't be more diametrically different, right? Right. You know, he's in the fashion industry. I was a Navy SEAL, right? He's gay. I'm not, right?

He, you know, is an activist. And, you know, I do almost a political show for, you know, the right. And so I think that separation, And then, you know, obviously when I went into college, I did not mature. My emotional intelligence was pretty shun. We can talk about that. And then in the teams, it was even more complicated because, you know, I was in San Diego almost the whole time. And he was up in L.A.

And I think we saw each other in the seven years I was in San Diego. I think we saw each other six times. And, you know, he never once came to visit me. I was always driving up there. And, you know, the one time he was in San Diego, which was a kind of crazy story with Charlie and Rick. And it was a Super Bowl thing that went Haywire. Maybe that's for a different show.

But. Let's hear it. Right now? Yeah. Oh, God. This is definitely a right turn right now. It was Super Bowl in San Diego. What was it?

2002. Are you talking Charlie Melton? Yeah. Oh, boy. And Rick Slater. Oh, boy. And so... You're good.

You wanted the whole story? Yeah, man. I had... The combat deployment happened that summer was really struggling from that, really struggling, period. Came, went home over Christmas, got engaged, came back,

and my brother is an event planner he's one of the biggest he works for one of the biggest companies in the world and he is the man like he put like if there's a New York premiere for F1 to Brad Pittman he did that you know he ran the whole thing like he's amazing of what he does

he's got so many gifts and so he was an event planner back then and he was working for the NFL experience and so he called me and he's like hey man we're going to be in town and these are like massive black tie parties and they were going to have it on Miramar Air Base, right? Kind of fuse it in.

The war had just been going on for a year, and they wanted to co-mingle, and it was in San Diego. And so he's like, hey, do you want to go to this thing? And I'm like, yes, I do. And I forget when he, this was like, I think he called me that, it was almost that Friday, and Charlie and I had started a bender that Friday, And I think it was Saturday night.

We drank pretty much all through the night. Next morning, woke up, started going. And I don't know how Rick came over. And I'm like, hey, man, you want to go? And he's like, yep. And next thing you know is the three of us. So, I mean, Charlie's 65, 66, 270, right? Rick was 6.3, 2, you know, 235 and me.

and we go to this thing and we actually put a button down shirt on and we go in and we go, we're early, we go on base, we go right to the bar and just start getting after it, right? Getting after it. Well, you know, I'm the guy who's always kind of trying to stir the pot

and so I'm looking around, I see these guys over here and I walk up and say, hey, how are you guys doing? What's up? You want to have a drink with us? And we're like, yeah, come over and this guy talking to him, and then he runs small venues, like little stadiums, like little soccer stadiums or whatever, and I forget where he ran him, but, and then he had his head, a security guy there with him, and I'm talking to him, the other security guy was over with Charlie

and Rick at the bar, and the guy tells me, oh, yeah, he's a Vietnam vet. I was like, no, that's awesome, that's really cool. And he's like, are you guys in? Like, yeah, we're in the Navy. And he's like, oh okay and he's like you know he was he was a navy seal in vietnam and we're like i'm like get out of here are you kidding me i was like yeah so i immediately go right over to the bomb like hey dude i heard your seal and you were in vietnam he's like yeah yeah yeah and i was like oh what bud's class were you in and he was like wow it's you know it's top secret and so it starts right and i'm like oh it was oh man that's cool i go i go so tell me, you know, some stories, you know? And I was like, and these guys weren't in it yet,

because I didn't want to, I had to build it up, right? And this was back in the different days of my, what fascinated me, right? And he ends up telling me all these stories, how he did the secret stuff in the Laos and Cambodia, and I'm less like, this was really cool. But then I ask them a couple quantifying questions, you know? And, like, do you know Rudy Bosch? And that's right when Survivor was on. So it was the biggest TV show. Rudy's a legend, right? He's one of the most famous Navy SEALs ever. And he's like, nope, never heard of him. I was like, okay, cool. I was like, hey, come over and meet my buddies, you know? And it's like, you know, I want to tell them about your stuff. So I brought them over. There are three sheets that'll win. And I come over. And now I'm like, hey,

you know, and I start telling them and Rick looks over and he goes, do you know Master Chief Gallagher, another legend, team two legend in the teams, like the man, right? I got a chance to meet him at one of the reunions down at Chief Watson Patches has this little marina down by the museum and got to meet Master Chief Gallagher. It was the coolest thing ever, these Vietnam guys just sitting around shooting the shit. And he's like, no, never heard of him, you know, and Rick's like, get over here, you know, pulls him in, gets in his face and is like, you know, you're fucking lying right now.

And we know you're lying. So you're going to drink until I tell you, you can go. And so we're just, Charlie's just like, boom, boom, boom. And then, you know, then he's, you know, then I forget who it was. he like finally was like I'm out here and like bolts and the guy like they disappear and so now we're laughing and just you know slamming next thing I know I go over and and I don't know I got a cigar or something I don't know how and I see my brother be lining towards me and he looks pissed and he's got some person some woman with him and he come and he's like get over here and so they take me behind the

curtains. They're like, did you, this woman, like, did you threaten these people who paid money to go with your drunk friends? You got to get out of here right now. And I'm like, I didn't do what, you know, and Eric's like just shaking his head like, you idiot, what are you doing to me? Right. This is my job. You just threaten somebody. And I'm like, I didn't say, you know, and we come out and the Marine MPs are there. And there's like 10 of them, right? Because they heard there was, seals, right? And they're always, they're going to overwhelm in force. And so they're like, all right, gents, you, you, and you. And the three of us got escorted off Miramar base and barely got away with almost destroying my brother's, you know, his event. Yeah. Yeah, that was,

but anyways, going back to the relationship. I don't, I'm, you know how you get into those moments where you're not sure what the solution is and you kind of dig into a state of mind or you dig in more so into a state of emotion and you lock that emotion in whether you're protecting yourself or you're trying to rationalize your behavior. because it doesn't feel right, but you don't want to back down because of how hurt you've been

or how wrong you are or whatever the context for your shame. And I suppose I couldn't get out of that. I suppose I was probably... You felt shape. Yeah, as I got older for sure. What did you feel shame about? That I wasn't.

there for him, that I couldn't help him, that nobody gave me the opportunity to be like, you know, Eric, I don't care if you're gay. You're still my brother. I love you. How can I help you? I mean, there were several times, I mean, I didn't even, he didn't even tell me until I was in college and he was older. Like, we sat down with Tommy. It's like, you know, I'm gay, right? And I was like, I didn't know, but I assumed. And I had gotten into a couple fights with my friends who had said something when I was in high school when I was older. Like, well, yeah, at least my brother's not gay or whatever that is. And, you know, got into it a couple times with friends as a result of it.

And, you know, that shame of not being able to support him, not being able to be there for him. And then, you know, over a while, because I wanted his love, You know, I wanted a relationship. I just, I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't know how to process the entirety of those emotions in a way that, what, you're freed from those, that shackle of shame. What would you say to him right now? Oh, that I love him dearly. And that I'm proud of him and that I admire him and that I'm grateful.

that were close. You know, we were just up in New York, and I had an event up there for my firm, and we decided, and this was after we'd spent a week in Maine with all of Johnna's family, her immediate family, it was like 18 of us, right? Wonderful, amazing people, and I'll talk about them later, but, and so I had this event, and so John was, well, why don't we go to New York and see, you know, Eric and James, and I was like, yes, absolutely. and he's just so good with the kids and so caring for us,

and he gives us so much, and this is the guy that's moving at 1,000 miles an hour. I mean, he's putting on, you know, or spending million dollars on these premieres, and he's running the whole thing, and so constantly grinding. But he makes the time, and he comes, and he goes to lunch with us, and he has dinner with us, and so we were able to celebrate my birthday dinner up there, and just I think it's the presence that I think I want more of, just to be with him, near him, and just so we can sit in that long space to try and fill it in, I think.

And so I love them, and I just, I'm looking forward to our relationship growing stronger and stronger and stronger, and particular just being in a space where we can rely on each other. be, that would be, you know, the dream. I hope that happens, man. Yeah, me too. Let's move on. All right. What got you interested in the military?

Oh, my God. Actually, you went to school first. I did. I went to four years of college. I, I, I, my, the jump from 17 to 23 or 22 was, was really intense. It's where my world really collapsed for the second time. You know, my dream had always been to play Division I football.

Like, I was the guy. I went to, you know, quarterback camps up in Indiana every summer. I, University of Michigan football camp. I, you know, I loved it. I just, everything about the game for me is just makes sense. I love the camaraderie. I love the tactics. I love the arduousness of it.

I love the pain that you feel. I love the competition of it, right? The grittier team wins, the closer team wins. And that's really, I think, what shaped who I am fundamentally the most was that sense of camaraderie that exists within a close team. And so, but my senior year, we went 0 and 10. We didn't win a damn game. In fact, my last game against our arch rivals,

I can't believe I'm openly talking about this on your show, but I think we've got beat like 64-0. And they knocked me out of game twice. Like, hit me so hard on a blind side, crack my helmet open. And, I mean, it was, you know, the culmination of my whole childhood focus on football, you know, came collapsing down.

in an O-N-10 season. And that really put me into a panic. And it was a guy at school at St. Andrews, who his name was Gary Neals, is probably one of the most significant influences I've had in my life as a young man. He was the MVP of the 1977 NCAA, Division I, lacrosse championship. He was a goalie for Maryland. And he had come down from a school up

north. And he was my assistant lacrosse coach. And he was the dean of students. And I just looked up to him. And I think he had brought it up to me. It was just like, listen, there's this thing called the postgraduate year. And a lot of guys up in the Northeast, you can do this fifth year of school. You grow older. You get stronger. You play another year of sports. You get another year high school and then you go to a better school or bigger school. And so I brought this up. My parents were like, do you want to do this? And I was like, yeah, if it gives me an opportunity to be able to play in college. And so I applied to like six different schools up, up in, you know, from New Jersey, up to New England and ended up getting accepted at Chote Rosemary Hall in Connecticut. And it was

fantastic because the quarterback, you know, he was like, yep, love you. Come in. up. We're going to throw the ball 45 times a game. Absolutely awesome. And it was amazing. And also, too, because in the spring, we had won a state championship in lacrosse. And I was, you know, the top player in the team. I ended up being the Florida representative to the national all-star game for lacrosse. Now, just to clarify it, that was not a big deal back then because Florida had like 18 teams, right? And I remember I was on the West team and they were, and There was nine midi lines, right? And I was a midfielder.

And I was on the ninth midi line with the guy from California and the guy from Colorado. So, you know, it wasn't that big of a deal. But it was still, I was able to take that accolade, transfer into this next evolution of my athletic career, which was to go to Choate. And I remember showing up in August. And I was so excited. I was like, this is my shot. I'm going to go to this great school. I'm going to get, you know, recruited by a.

D1 school. It's going to be amazing. And I remember showing up first day and we're doing our tests and strength stuff. And I look over at this guy next to me and I said, hey, how are you doing? I'm David. What's your name? He's like, Mike. And he's like, I'm like, what position you play? And he's like, quarterback. And I go, he goes, what position do you play? And I go, quarterback. And this dude had recruited two of us. And we both showed up. And so everything was shot in that moment. And it's like, dude, coach, you just. told me I was the guy. That's why I came to the school. That's why we're paying this insane amount of money to go to the school so I can come here and throw the ball. And I don't know

what it was. We had a really solid team, a lot of great guys. You know, Kirby and we had like nine post-graduates and Brian Lonsinger was our captain and all these amazing human beings, really special guys and so Mike and I looked at each other and said hey do you you want to go for it and he's like yeah and so we just split time the whole year and we went undefeated we were one of the best teams at that time in Choate's entire like 112 year history and we were beating teams by like 50 and we won the championship of that big school and it was incredible and I was riding this huge eye and was getting some looks and was getting some smaller colleges and and then lacrosse came i played basketball and then play lacrosse and we run a championship in

lacrosse too and and but no big d-1 offers came in other than for lacrosse and it was one for umass and then one for pen state and the reason i got the pen state offer was again because of gary neals he had sent a letter uh to glen field who was the head coach at at Penn State and said, hey, you know, this guy's not from, you know, Philly. He's not from Long Island. He's not from Maryland. Upstate New York. He, you know, but he's a really good athlete. And if you give him a shot, he'll make you proud. And so he put his reputation on the line for me. And I went on a recruiting trip to UMass, and I went on a recruiting trip to Penn State, and it wasn't even a choice. And so I chose to go to Penn State. And, uh, I chose to go to Penn State.

And it was a funny start because when I showed up, my whole intention was I was going to try and walk on the football team. I had created this illusion that I could play at Penn State, right? From the time I was little kid, when I was little, it was like, all right, you know, go to University of Michigan, win the Heisman, then go play for the Pittsburgh Steelers. You know, you're a kid and you just, it's not like it is today where there's max preps and there's every single stat and they rank everybody. five-star blue chips, four-star three, like wasn't like that. And so I had conjured up this illusion that I was a lot better than I actually was. And so I said, all right, I'm going to go to Penn State and I'm going to walk on. And I showed up. We showed up in like August. And my roommate was still one of my closest friends this day, Mike O'Keefe, who I just loved dearly. It was like a godsend that

he was my roommate. He was an All-American from Baltimore. And we were in freshman study hall class. And it was all the athletes, and he's like, hey, man, I think you need to go tell the new freshman quarterback you're going to take his job. And I was like, yeah, man, where is it? And there was this dude in the front row that was the biggest human being I've ever seen. And it was a guy named Carrie Collins. And Kerry was the number one recruited quarterback in a country. And he was like 6-5, 255 at an 80-yard ball.

And he was just, I've never seen anything like it. And kind of in that moment, my whole world shattered because the illusion that I had created of who I thought I was was untrue. You know, I was six foot, 160 pounds, soaking wet. I did have a strong arm and probably I could have handled the complexity of a D1 program. But I physically, I was just, I was nowhere. You know, I might have been a decent D3 quarterback, maybe. And so all of that dream that, you know, that 10 plus years of wanting to play football in college just collapsed. It just went away.

And immediately I started to collapse emotionally. How so? Because the alternative was to, you know, all right, I've got this opportunity as a lacrosse player. I'm going to move in and I'm, you know, I'm going to be really good there. But like I said, my roommate was an All-American from Baltimore. Like our freshman class, these people were phenomenal players from Towson. There was Grant and Brian and Mike and Hank and, you know, JT. Like Mike Buzza, my other close, close friend, and it was a cool story about Mike and

Mike. They actually came to my Bud's graduation. Mike Buzza was on the 19 All-World team from Philly, and these guys, they could do things with their stick. I couldn't even dream of. And so I had a little bit earlier started as a way to manage kind of my frustrations and my fears because my fears really began to emerge when that whole stuff started going down with Eric. I think my insecurity really began to blossom in those times.

And I became afraid of a lot of things during those years and afraid of failure. for sure afraid my you know i was afraid i didn't measure up i was afraid of death right um you know i it was weird you know at 13 14 all of a sudden i become fascinated with and my favorite movie was apocalypse now and the deer hunter and so it wasn't those weren't your typical war movies you know rambo was going on at the same time and commando and all that but i was more attracted to those very intense stories of how war affected people. And, you know, there was this other show that came on. I forget what year it was, but it was called The Day After. And it was about nuclear Holocaust. And, you know, that was my salvation. I would, to escape when I was home in the

chaos of the house, I'd go into my dad's den and we had a little cable thing with the little box. And I'd just close the doors and I would sit and I would just watch TV and movies for hours and hours. And I was drawn to these very intense stories about the collapse of the human spirit. And I think that provoked a deep fear for me, that that was possible and feasible. I was watching it in real time with my brother. I watched it when my dad's firm collapsed. I was feeling the effects, you know, that O and 10 season, like, I wasn't who I thought I was. And so I think everything, the foundation began to fracture and those, that insecurity and that fear emerged significantly. And so fast forward in my freshman year, we show up and kind of at Choate,

I kind of defaulted into this almost an alternate personality to protect myself from that fear. And I'd gotten the nickname at Choate. They called me Psycho. And I'd do dumb stuff. I remember I streaked a bunch of like these functions. I would get hammered, you know, in the middle of the night with my friend Chris and Mike. And just tried to project myself as a lot stronger than I was. And so in the fall of 91, I kind of collapsed pretty rapidly.

and started drinking a ton, like a ton, not even, not a little bit like blackout drunk every time I went out. And, you know, and started, you know, smoking a ton. And, I mean, I, by the end of my first semester, I think I had like a 1.2 grade point average of 1.3. Like, I collapsed and couldn't find my footing. And it just kept getting worse and worse.

And by my sophomore year, I was still on the team. I'd gotten eligible through sophomore into the fall and was trying my heart, but I just wasn't connecting. It wasn't hitting me. Like I felt inept. I felt unqualified. I felt I was scared that I would never, no matter what I could do, would be as good as these guys.

And so I gave myself this out that I, I had, I, someone had given me this, this guy, my team had given me the nickname Elvis, my right and like fall ball freshman year. And so Elvis became this moniker and it became this alter ego for me, this, this different personality that I could hide behind and as the party guy and the eccentric. And right around the same time, I discovered my real passion for art. And, you know, some of the first artist I really found, you know, I've always been, I was always, because I was taking, I was an art major with a minor in poetry and some other minors, you know, sociology, philosophy, all that. And, and I tell people that and they're like, what did you say? You know, and I didn't, that was the only other thing I was good at, right? I was good at sports and I was good at art. And so I'll be an art major because what else am I going to do? And, and, and, and, and, and, had a couple of cool classes that really allowed me to explore the depths of what art looked like. And I remember I discovered, you know, Van Gogh. And, you know, you learn, take five seconds to, you know, I took a bunch of art history classes. And you learn about Van Gogh and his relationship with Gogh and the change of impressionism and what he battled psychologically.

and then I found you know Charles Bukowski as a poet and you know and that was revolutionary for me this guy who had essentially lived on Skid Row for you know four decades and wrote these beautiful poems

that just resonated with me music like Miles Davis and when you understand the complexity of who Miles Davis was you know I'm just now of a sudden I'm being sucked into this and then you know of course there was jim morrison and the doors and then there was hunter thompson i remember reading fear and loathing in las vegas it was like i was just like oh my this is it this is who i want to be and and then really i had an english like a lit class

and that part of the set or poetry class and part of the section was on the beat authors um from the you know 30s 40s and 50s really that blossomed in 1950s now Ginsburg and William S. Burroughs and and the one that really the seminal work that I think really changed my my impression of where I wanted to go or what I wanted to be was Jack Kerouac's on the road and I read that and I was like that's what I need to do like none of this is making sense for me anymore. I'm not an athlete anymore, and I can't recover that no matter how much I pretend. And I'm not a student. I couldn't handle that, or chose not to handle, I should say, I could handle it. But I chose not to handle it. And I tried to encapsulate all these different

ideas of these artists, because I really believe that to be a great artist, I had to be that eccentric wild man, you know, the guy who stands on the bars and can drink, you know, you know, 10 pints of Guinness in a bottle of wild turkey and who, you know, smoked, you know, cigarette after cigarette or swisher sweet after swisher sweet. And, and I really allowed myself to be consumed with that. Now, I think the positive aspect of it is that that's where I really started writing. That's where I really started drawing and I really started painting. And I got to explore what that was like.

And, you know, the one thing about art is that when you're in hell, if you can put it on paper or you can put it on a wall, or you can somehow get it out of you, it makes it somewhat tolerable. And that's what I did. And I remember in my sophomore year, we lived in this old house, and there was a bunch of us that lived in this house. And JJ and Grant and Brian and my friend Tony Gronsky, who I love, there's got another part of the story about him. And I lived in the basement, like this moldy, nasty, horrible basement.

And, you know, I'd come home and, you know, when all the bars would shut down, all the everybody, every fraternity would kick me out. And I would, because I'd just walk into a fraternity, be like, oh, this. And I'd, you know, drink everything they have and go to the next house. And I would come home and I would have a bottle of bushmills and I'd open up bushmills. And I would paint on the walls. And I'd, you know, paint these insane pictures of the angst and the, you know, frustration and the pain that I was suffering from and and I'd write his poem after poem after poem and that began to take hold of me in a pretty significant way to where you know the thing is

there's there's a an allure to these titans of art right there's something that sucks you into them. There's something that's romantic about that life, right? When you, you know, you think about Jackson Pollock or you think about Andy Warhol or you think about some brilliant musician, right, Jimmy Hendricks, or, and you watch what they do, what they can create, and it, it alters your consciousness, right? It opens perspective. And so as I was in this profound transition in my life, I didn't know how to find a foundational cornerstone, if you will. I didn't know what that was.

And so I started, the depression started setting in pretty significantly. And I couldn't shake it no matter what I did. I just drank more, you know, and it just got worse and worse and worse. and then it was my sorry but what was interesting is I averaged like a 1-8 during the regular school year

and then I average like a 4-1 or 4-2 in summer school, right? And I always joked that it's because I was from Florida I couldn't handle the cold, right? And in Penn State but in the summer so the summer there's this crazy thing called the arts festival. It's really beautiful thing

It was my favorite part about Penn State, and Mike and I were up there, and I was living near some other, these female friends of mine who were on the lacrosse team, and it was Chrissy and Alyssa and Megan, and wonderful, and Chrissy and I were super close. And she was kind of a deadhead artist, and she and I would just talk about these people endlessly. We would just go get a coffee or drink, and we would just talk about this stuff. Well, that summer, I'd met somebody, and I had a little short, relationship and then kind of ended it and that was it and then the fall began and at this time it was my junior year and we were living in this place called Stonehenge and it was just the name of it and it was it was me uh mike um buzza billy um schoons um brian and in grant and and i lived me and o'keef and schoons lived in the top and i lived in this little hole up front and you know

had these just by then was really struggling and I remember being at a party in the fall was cold it was really cold and I had left the party was pretty not inebriated and walked outside and there was a snowfall on a ground and and this girl who I had seen kind of came up to me. And she was, I guess, at the party. And I didn't see her. And she came up to me. And she goes, Alice, I want to talk to you. And so she came out and we're in the street. And she goes, do you know where I've been? And now, mind you, Penn State is, you know, 65,000 kids, right? I mean, it's a massive school. And you can never see anybody. See him once and never see him again sometimes. And she came up to me and she goes, do you have any idea where I've been? And I said,

no, I don't. And she goes, you got me pregnant. And I left school and I was going to have the baby. But I had a miscarriage and I lost the baby. And so, you know, I'm sitting and I don't, like, how am I processing this and what do I do? How old are you? I want to say it's probably 21, 20, 21. Yeah, probably 21.

and don't know what to say and I guess I just look you know why didn't you tell me and she looked at me and she said because I didn't want you to have anything to do with the kid and that was kind of the lowest moment that I had why did she not want you to have anything to do with the kid because I was out of control

I wasn't trustworthy I wasn't didn't have integrity I was a mess with alcohol and drugs I was just... What kind of drugs? Mostly just pot. You know, I was nervous about cocaine.

I'd had a couple friends who had OD'd, and, you know, my brother had battled that a little bit. And so I was nervous, so I never got, went down that. But, you know, some psychedelics. I was, you know, definitely licurgic acid and mushrooms. And because, you know, you get into that world and you're like, oh, this is going to make me a better artist. And you believe that, right? You read all the stories about Ken Kese and Timothy Leary and, you know, the merry pranksters. And you're like, all right, that's where I want to be.

There's a perfection in that. There's a freedom. But the truth is there is no freedom. You always end up devolving into hell with it. And it's just the natural progression. And so after she told me and she was, I don't remember how to end because I was kind of in shock. And so at that point, I left the party and went back to Stonehenge, went up into my little hole and cubby and drank the rest of my bottle of bushmills and broke out my shotgun and put a shell in it and was seriously contemplating, shooting myself at that. Holy shit.

I didn't know that about you. Yeah. and it's like everything slows down and you know you're trying to at least I was trying to I was trying to figure out what was worth it like why should I should I just ended if this person felt I was so, such a lowly human being that she wanted me to have nothing to do with it in any way, shape, form, not even the consideration to want to give me the option, right,

because of my character. Like, where do you come back from that? And I just remember just, just be weeping in my room, just like, just trying to work up the courage, right? to pull that trigger. And God brought Mike O'Keefe home. And he heard the music, and he came up, and he just started banging on the door. And he's like, this, this, let's go, man.

Come home. Come downstairs. This. Because he, out of everybody, he really helped me the most. like he saw it devolve day by day month by month week you know year by year and he was always there he was always the guy like come on viz let's go we're going to you know a lacrosse party and i think right after that is when i finally got kicked off the team um my junior year and he just banging on the door this this come out come here body come on man come downstairs come hang with us and that was it that was

that was the thing his voice that made me get up kind of shake it off and and i went out i went downstairs and kind of just sat there just trying to process it all did he know i think he suspected it you never told him i did i told him later what do he say uh he said i kind of felt like that was coming. He's like, there's been more times than just that. I'm worried about you. Like I said, man, because he's, it wasn't the first time I thought about it for sure,

but not in that way, not in a place. I was like, I'm going to do this because I don't, I don't deserve to be here. And that was the other thing. It was weird. It was like to get to a place where you can't see all the good in your life. because all you can do is sit in the hell of like what you're not doing right. And you can't see beyond it.

Like you have these blinders up. And it's almost like a weird filter. You see the world through this, you know, infinite layers of negativity. You know, I call it the negative insurgency, right? It's that thing that just hunt you and hunts you. It does not let you. go no matter where you try and move, where you try and escape, however you try and do it, it just haunt you.

And you can't see it. You don't know why it's happened, where it's coming from, and you're too afraid to look at yourself. How did you, so if you said you were going to leave school to be a dad, I mean, how did you rectify that situation with? I didn't even get to that point. You didn't. No, I didn't know.

decision. I didn't know she was pregnant. I didn't know what was, I didn't even, like, it was just she showed up, hey, I was pregnant, I was going to have a kid, you weren't going to be part of it. That's what you wanted to tell me. So she had already had the miscarriage? Yeah. And come back to school. Shit. Yeah. Yeah. So I was, and then that just continued it. And it just got worse and worse. And I think that year, I forget, it was something like almost 90 straight days of being intoxicated. Yeah, it was just, it just didn't end. I just didn't want it to end. I mean, I'd wake up, pour myself a glass of jack or, you know, hit the bong or whatever it was, just to stay numb as much as I could. Damn, man. Yeah.

How'd you get over that? God. It's the only answer. that I can give because it was in mid-April, 1995. Did you have a relationship with God at that time? No, nothing. So looking back, are you saying it was God or you found God at that point? No, I just looking back, but I know that was the first moment where it was like God

kind of came in and was a presence in my life. I'd gotten so bad my senior year, I was essentially off the team. I was living by myself completely isolated. That's the other thing, like the desire to continue to isolate and isolate and isolate. And that's what people with these types of challenges, depression and anxiety and fear. And, you know, that's what it is in pain, the presence of pain. You want to be isolated and you're ashamed of it. And I'd gotten to that place where I didn't want anybody to see me.

and it was April, and I knew I was in trouble, and I woke up one Sunday, and I was not, I mean, you've seen my places before. I'm not exactly the most squared away. I'm a bit of a tornado. You definitely don't have OCD, okay, I'm sure. I know, I'm definitely the artist, right? And so I got, I woke up, and I looked over, and there was a pile of clothes and a corner. And I was like, all right, I got to go. I'd been wearing the same jeans for a couple

weeks. And it's like, all right, I got to go do a laundromat. And I drove out to this laundromat just off campus, not far from where this had happened. It was an lacrosse house that people used to live at. And I was in this laundromat. And I used to take, you know, a sketchbook with me or one of my poetry books. And in those moments, I'd try and reflect. And I'd try and reflect. And I'd try and find something that positive, right? I'd try and quantify the pain in some type of prose or a drawing or a sketch or something. And I showed up and I just sat there and there was nothing, just nothing. I was just sitting there and watch that laundry go round and round and round.

And then just like that, something hit me. It was like, you've got to change your life right now. And it was overwhelming. like it was it was like a hit it was i felt a movement i'm like okay what is it what do i do and and you know being a lawyer's kid it's like write out all your pros and cons son you know and look at it you know intellectually and so i'm like all right so i wrote out the pros of staying in school and the pros of leaving school and the pros cons of staying in school and the cons of leaving school and none of it was good like i didn't have anything to think about or do or nothing and then

i got hit immediately with a thought and it was because of tony gronsky from scranton p.a and tony when i was a freshman they lived he and his roommate morland lived next to me and we became friends with tony he's just a great guy amazing total scranton guy and but funny as hell and had these little little sains he'd say and we just loved him and we adopted him and he was just but he was older than us he'd been in army reserves and he was squared away and as a freshman he'd given me a book about navy seals in vietnam and i remember i read and i i didn't know about seals like i and when i was kid it was always green berets and rangers right john wayne um you know uhpocalypse now and the deer hunter i mean Those movies were, I mean, I had Tiger Stripe Cammo, you know, stuff when I was a kid,

and it was because of those things. It was like, man, I admired that. I'd always admired what they were and what they could do. And then he gave me this book. I put it down. I never thought about it. And then in that moment, it was like, that's it. Because when the whole thing, the whole context of the book was about these, I mean, you know,

these guys that were in Vietnam doing. these missions out in the middle of nowhere with a few guys and they would accomplish things that were crazy. And I was like, that's it. Because at that point, my fear had utterly consumed me. I was afraid of everything. I was afraid of, I couldn't even try anything. I was just afraid. And self-confidence was completely shattered. Like, I had no. I didn't believe in myself at all in any way. And then I had been kicked off the team, so I had no support. And even though Mike and Buzz and all those guys were wonderful to me, they were always there.

Brian Shorts, I mean, Grant Yoder, they were always there. They always cared about me. But I was off the team, and so I was alone. And so I said, all right, well, I'm going to be able to repair. all of this by going in the Navy and becoming a seal. And that was it. That was the decision in that moment. Had you ever had contact with her since she met you in the street?

How often do you think about that? I'd been able to suppress it for quite a while. And then obviously having children and then having daughters that brought it back up, having daughters now. Yeah, everything is more intense about all of my relationships that I've been through now that I have daughters. And I think about how I behaved and I think about how I acted. And I think that really kind of really shifted my approach to relationships after that as well, too. And I think it added a component of not being able to recognize when relationships weren't healthy anymore

and staying in them probably too long, which became a pretty regular thing for me for the rest of my time until I met Jana. So, yeah, it comes up for sure, and definitely in preparation for this. I mean, obviously, you know, to try and encapsulate those pivotal moments, they're not typically the best moments of your life, and that was certainly one of them. What advice would you have for somebody that age that has gotten somebody pregnant, had a miscarriage? How do they get through that? I think the biggest thing is to lean on people that you can count on who will give you the truth, who will talk truth to you. I think also faith is a big thing, right? I didn't have anything.

I didn't have anybody to turn to, you know, I didn't know where to go. I didn't know where to rehabilitate it. I was a shame. And I think, you know, one thing that is pretty inevitable for young people is there's an intimacy that's, you know, that's where the overwhelming component of your passion comes from. and as you're a young person is in those emerging intimate moments with people that you're you're just infatuated with or you're bonded physically to and I think unfortunately people just don't think and they get encapsulated in the moment and next thing you know someone gets pregnant and I think a lot of people obviously we know the numbers of abortion are astronomical

and I think it you know there are also a lot of people that I know that have pushed through and had children, right? They were together and they got pregnant and then they got married and, you know, intimate parts of my immediate family understand that deeply, right? And so I think what I would say to people

is, you know, don't be afraid to ask for help because it's such an impending, imposing, idea that you know you did something wrong or you weren't good enough or something happened and I think both for the female the woman who's involved in that especially to seek out people that are they can talk to and then also the young man because that's I think a lot of times that that kind of there's a myth that young men don't have the capacity to process that stuff or And many times they don't for whatever lack of emotional intelligence maybe or it's just fear, right? And so, you know, those are those moments where that fear and that pain, you have to move into it.

Like you have to be willing to recognize that you're going to learn something deeply from it. And if you really invest in understanding it and you can begin to rely on that deeper level faith as well, too, which I wish I had. You know, another piece of advice that I want to get from you is, you know, we talk a lot about veteran suicide. You've lost a lot of friends. I've lost a lot of friends. We've lost mutual friends, a lot of them.

You know, but on top of, you know, the veteran suicide epidemic, I mean, today's youth, with everything that they deal with, with predators, with blackmail, with social media, with the self-esteem problems and trying to belong in school and with all the confusion that goes on today. I mean, teen suicide is it, I don't know the statistics, but I do know it's in an all-time high. After COVID, girls' teenage suicide increased by 50%. And your wife, John, you know, dealt with a suicide with her ex-husband.

And, you know, what, but specifically for teenagers. what advice do you have for somebody that's right in the line i think the biggest thing is to know that you're loved because in those moments you don't it's not that you you i don't think it's that you's that they don't believe that they're loved but they can't reciprocate or it would be better for them to be gone. I'm the problem, so I could help my family or my friends. They would have a better life if I was just gone. And then it's the other is like, I can't handle this anymore. I don't want to fight this anymore. It's too overwhelming. I'm exhausted. I don't have any options. And I think that's the challenge. And I think, you know, the insecurities of young people really as an emergence

of the desocialization that took place, right? You know, when I first started working with kids in 2006, the statistic was like 13-year-old kids, boys were connected, something like four to six hours a day. It was, you know, whether it was gaming or whatever. And then girls, it was a little higher, maybe five to seven or eight, something like that. And then now, you know, kids are connected for 13, 14 hours a day.

they're on their phones or they're immersed in streaming and they're they're in that space where it's they they're not given the opportunity to process there's these emotions across from somebody and across from somebody that they trust that that will sit and listen that will maybe not give advice, but say, I can't snap my fingers and make this go away, but what we can do is we can work together to get you back to a place where you can gain that foundation, find that cornerstone. And that cornerstone is the key to the whole thing, right? The cornerstone of Christ.

Because if you know at a minimum that he died for us, and he died for our sins, then you begin to contemplate, all right, the sin of self-loathing, the sin of, you know, of not believing that you're good enough or you're capable enough or that life will change. You know, you think about some people that are just trapped in trauma, whether it's generational trauma of the dysfunction of family or it's, you know, whatever circumstances they are. And, and, you know, obviously, I think it's, it's, it's, it's ridiculous to assume that, that youth trauma is encapsulated in people that are economically in a struggle. In fact, I think, you know, I've, I've seen many people that are not wealthy or even, you know,

or even have an abundance, if you will, but they love on each other. And they have very, very, strong family dynamics and those that sense that you know you've got each other's back even in the midst if there's the natural squabbling that takes place among siblings or parents or whatever that are trying to parent you i think you know those bonds those are the those bonds are what chain us to that cornerstone and that's that's that's the the mixture that's what connects us that's what creates if you will almost the net that saves us in the free fall that we move into are those bonds, right? And so that's the key, you know, is to get involved in conversations and to have meaningful conversations with each other. Those first moments where,

you know, you start to say, I'm ugly, I'll never be popular, or I'm not, I'm not good enough to be the top, you know, I don't fit in with anybody, or I'm a little different, all these things that, you know, once you get on that, that infinite wheel of despair, it's very difficult to jump off or even to slow the wheel down. And I believe that human interaction is the way to do that. It's been that way for as long as, you know, human beings have been interacting and sharing stories with each other in their tribes, you know. That's why when people come in.

to the seat and they sit across from you and they share these stories there's a reason why so many millions of people have been affected billion now is because those stories they connect with them they touch them in particular when they hear you know what they imagine to be immortal's or or people who are operating at some higher higher level of of strength or whatever that might be and they come in and they show their vulnerability and they show their struggles, right? It connects you to them. And I think that's what we need more of.

We need more dialogue. We need more sincerity, empathy within each other. And that's not to say we have to become, you know, weak by any measure. It actually takes more courage and more strength to sit down across from somebody that you care deeply and say, what's really going on with you?

I want to know. I can't promise you I can solve this in the next hour and I think so many people when we become isolated in our own thoughts we cease to see other people in their pain and respect it and I think that's a critical thing for us to do and it really takes that little bit of like hey you good I mean I think about it all the time

and I think about it with Dave Hall I mean I got a call from from Chris and said hey man Dave struggle and I called them up and like how are you doing he's like I'm good I just got out of rehab and I'm going to go do some ayahuasca and I think I'm good and I was like okay hey man you know come down the floor to come stay with me for a month and I've got this great program that Dr. Freese running out and and Methodist in Houston and and I was like I'll pay for it I'll raise the money. I'll get you there. He's like, well, I'm going to go back to home in North Florida for like a week and then I'll call you and I was like, okay. And then I immediately hear he's killed himself. It's like, why didn't I drive up or why didn't I go? And that's the other half of it for those that are left behind, you know, that process. So suicide is not something that we should cower from. It's not something that shouldn't be talked about. It's not something that shouldn't be discussed openly.

I mean, it's a massive component of existence, right? The human soul is fragile. And the result of a fragile soul is the self-loathing that moves into wanting to inflict pain to end that pain, to end that existence. And, you know, it's just, I would tell kids, you know, lean into somebody who loves you, don't be afraid to tell. And then to sit down with somebody that's got. some wisdom on them and and talk about you know one of the things that john and i are going to

start working on here in a little bit as a as a course that we're going to put out under the frog logic institute about suicide you know i think another thing just to just to add to that is you know especially for young people you know who don't have a lot of life experiences you know life comes in phases and phase always comes to an end I don't know how long it's going to be. Maybe you have a shitty childhood. Maybe you've got shitty parents, shitty siblings,

bad friends, bad decisions. But if you're willing to change, life just, it comes in phases. And it will always turn. Will just keeps going. It'll always turn. And so just know there are better days ahead.

Yeah. There are better days ahead. Hope. But let's take a break. Yeah, man. Let's go break in that new sig. Done. All right.

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all right dave we're back from the break getting ready to get into your naval special warfare career so we left off at downward spiral in college apocalypse now movies the deer hunter you got interested where do we go from here well it was after that moment i remember i mean it's a pretty shocking thing to call home and say, mom, dad, thank you for just spending, you know, tens of thousands of dollars on my education. Oh, by the way, I'm done. I'm not finishing. I'm walking away. And my brother had walked away, too. And this, we come from a family. I think there's 17 people in our family that have graduated from the University of Michigan. You know, my grandfather had gone to Dartmouth. You know, my cousin was undergrad at Brown and a graduate at Columbia, you know,

one of the top people in the entire world in the literature world. He's a senior editor at large for Random House. His name's David Ebershoff. It's a lot of pride in education. In education and maximizing those capabilities. And so I, you know, that was, I was petrified because the first person I really, needed to get confirmation from was my father was to say hey will you support this will you get behind this and i was i was scared and i think i waited a couple days and then finally i i had to call him and you know he typical fashion he maintained his control and was just like all right if this is absolutely what you have to do and what you want to do why don't you come home and and you know we'll go

from there and packed up my stuff and I drove home from Penn State and it was May of 95 and got home and it was different this time than the last four years of you know coming home and you know going down to South Beach with my you know my other close friend Mark and hanging out down there and just you know not thinking at all about what my future was going to look like, just more of what I was trying to numb myself against. And I got home, and over those four years, one of the beautiful things that took place during that time was my father and my relationship blew up.

Like, it emerged. I'll never forget one of those, my sophomore year. He knew I was struggling. He too struggled. He got kicked out of Michigan, his sophomore year, the only person, I think, in Michigan history to be expelled for intellectual drifting, they called it. Intellectual drifting. And on his way out, he got confirmation from whoever was kicking him out, saying, hey, if I go to this other community college or other school and I get straight A's and have a 4.0, will you let me in? And the guy's like, there's no way.

Yeah, absolutely. So he goes, and he goes through summer school and goes and gets a 4.0. And one of the interesting things he talks about is that summer he read all of the great works of literature. Like he made a list of the top works of literature from Henningway to Steinbeck to, you know, to Keats to Whitman, all of them. And he read all of them. And he had come up during my sophomore year when I was living in the basement. And he came back one night. My mom went to the Nidney Line Inn, and he came back with me, and we sat and we drank

bushmills together. And it was the first time he explained that situation and how he had wanted to move to New York and be a writer and pursue his art, because that's where the art comes from. In our family, it comes from my father. My father was an artist growing up. He had a tough childhood. his mom had a stroke when he was four years old and that changed his life or eight years old he was eight years old and it changed his life because his mom was then handicapped from them on

and my grandfather Robert Bruce Rutherford you know had to take care of her work a full job and then my dad and his sister and I think somewhere in there he kind of got lost in his own mind too and that art emerged in him and so he had these dreams. of moving to New York and being a famous author, famous novelist. And he sat down with me and told me that story. And it was like the first time he had ever been proud of me intellectually. Because even though I wasn't going to class much, I was still reading Nietzsche, Camus.

I was learning about art history and the Medici families and Venice. and, you know, the emergence of all different types of philosophy. I took multiple philosophy crafts and multiple psychology classes. You know, you're in the humanities, and I just started to consume those other works. And it was in that moment where I felt a bond with us. And that was pivotal because even though I was not behaving, I wasn't proud of what I was doing. I wasn't proud of where I was going. He still loved me.

And he was giving me the space to figure it out, as later what he told me. And so fast forward, I get home, and I'm walking away from the thing that I thought was all my dad wanted me to be, which was an intellect. That's the way I would gain his pride in me, that he would be able to one day look at me and said, you know, son, I'm proud of you for graduating and, you know, going to law school. and coming to worry, although he never once asked, you know, hey, I'd love for you to come and work with me as an attorney. Never once, never pushed me in any direction one way or the other. And in fact, restrained himself a lot, knowing that I think I had created this false illusion of who I was athletically. And he allowed that space for me. So I come home and I remember

and he said to me, he goes, would you give me two weeks before you go to the recruiter? and I'm like what do you mean for what I want to go I want to get this started immediately he goes because I didn't want to think about it like I didn't want to linger in it I didn't want to learn and you know and he goes we just give me two weeks and for the first time over two weeks my dad would come home early and we would spend all afternoon and evening discussing it and we would talk and he'd be like why do you want to do this what about this is going to fit? whatever holes inside of you. What are you going to learn from this?

Are you aware, I mean, you have these fears? Are you aware you're going to have to face these fears? You're going to have to, in ways you can't fathom, are you aware it could irrelevably change you forever in your life? And we had these really intense, deep conversations about life. And I was convincing. and he got to the point where he's like, okay, then I just want you to do one more thing for me

and then I'll support you unconditionally in this. And I was like, what's that? And he goes, you're going to need to go talk to Bud Miller. And I was like, that, I got nervous at that point. So Bud Miller, one of my best friends in high school was Chris Miller, phenomenal guy. Amazing, amazing friend to me. His father was a Vietnam veteran and had a couple tours, was a Marine Corps officer, and was bigger than life, right? He was the CEO of a major

company called Arvita back then, which they built much of Southeast Florida. He was the CEO. He was the chairman of our school board and our prep school. We would to. And he just commanded attention. I always had this amazing affinity for him. So I'd, you know, spend a night and very, very juxtaposed to my father. My father was not that guy, right? He was quiet and listened. And I mean, he's an attorney and he was empathetic. And he was, he was, he was, you say that like all attorneys are quiet and empathetic. Apparently that's not the case. But the way I grew up, I watched the nobility of the way my father, he was in state planning.

And, I mean, you think about it. What happens in estate planning? It's the worst moment of your life. Someone's died. And my dad would guide people through this. And he would sit down and be like, he'd be like, you know, David, think about what I do and how I help people in those moments. Because I'd be like, dad, why aren't you like big time trial attorney or, you know, why aren't you going out? And he says, you know, I tried trial attorney. I hated it. I didn't like it. A lot of it is not what it seems. You know, it's kind of a charade, if you will. But in estate planning, I can help people in the greatest crisis of their life. You know, and that influence combined with my mom and the dedication to charity and what she did in the community, like that really was a model for me. I mean, it was a phenomenal example for me to exist in.

And anyway, so he's like, all right, we're going to go talk to Bud. I was like, okay. So he called and arranged it, and I remember going over to Bud and walk in, and Bud was a big crown drinker. Crown on the rocks, man, just crown, crown. And we go outside. They lived in this nice neighborhood, and we go outside, and he's like, come outside, and he pours me a crown on the rocks, and he's like, drink it.

I'm like, okay. And he says, so you want to go to war, huh? And for the next several hours, he told me about some of his, the intimacy of what it was like for him in Vietnam. And it was rattling. It was the first time I'd ever had anybody talk to me in that way. I'd never had, I mean, nobody, we had people in our family a couple generations before that had served were part of Roosevelt's cabinet. You know, we had a couple of my great uncles were generals. stuff, but since my grandfather's, nobody had served. And that was an eye-opening experience,

to say the least. And he shared with me about a time he would not, the famous stories of tunnel rats, right? He would never make any of his guys go in the tunnel. He would go in the tunnel instead of his men. And one of the times the tunnel collapsed on him. And his, he essentially was suffocating and his men had to dig him out and you know you hear that and then you hear about the story of men and his underneath his command dying in his arms multiple times and it made it real or more real more tangible it still wasn't real yet right obviously but it made it real like it made me really think whoa is this is this what I want to do can I can I handle that like what will it do to me is it going to change

Because my greatest fear from the beginning was that if I go into the teams, I'll lose that piece of myself. That's the artists, right? And I didn't want that to happen. I read enough stories about J.D. Salinger and, you know, Hemingway and these other people that had seen combat and how it changed them permanently. And now, luckily, maybe not luckily is not the word, I think, fortunately for those men, that pain was converted into, really beautiful art and so I was nervous like maybe if what I saw or what I went through that would be erased in me and so I had that in mind and when I went to the recruiter uh man I was probably had long hair huge sideburns a nasty goatee I was probably about 225 pounds out of shape

and I walked into in Delray where it is and I said uh hey how you doing he's like may I help you And I was like, yeah, I want to be a Navy SEAL. He was like, I bet you do. And he sat me in that chair and put on that cassette tape called Be Someone Special. And it's funny, man, I just watched it. You can find it on YouTube. And it's, you know, guys fast roping into a target and assaulting it and planting a bomb and it blowing up and snipers taking guys out outside. And then it moves into this story of buds.

And that was the first time I'd ever. because back then there wasn't anything right there's a couple books from vietnam there was rogue warrior and that was it in the charlie sheen movie and and none of that encapsulated what it was for me that video was the first time i got a window into the intensity of it and i was like yeah that's it that's what i need that's what i want and he's like okay sign right here and i said well i can't my dad made me promise. I'd take it home and show them, you know, big contract. I take it home to my dad and he reads through. He goes, he goes, it is what it is. You know, you go in. They own you. And I was like, okay, that works. That's fine. That's what I want. So I signed. I was at MEPs. And, you know,

in June 23rd, I think of 1995, I was at boot camp. So what was it that really drew you in? I think it was the redemption that I imagined. I would feel. if I could face death and not collapse. I think if I could stand next to somebody who entrusted their lives with me and I had the strength to do that that somehow all of my fear would go away. Did it, was there any aspect of,

I mean, your athletic career came crashing down? your academic career came crashing down you had a miscarriage with a woman i mean it's a fucking tough spot for a guy what 21 i was 22 because i had done the fifth year high school so i was a year old 22 years old i mean a lot of failures is there any aspect of this that you did did you want to make your parents proud did you want to you so for example For me, you know, when I looked at it, it was a way to be the best, the very best, it's something that was actually attainable. You were in control. All you have to do is not quit and perform. There's no size requirements. You're too small, you're too big, you're too skinny, you're too, there is none of that. And so it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, you're it's a way to you see what I'm saying yeah it mitigates all the other it's a way to be the best at something to make people proud of you and and and and it's all within your your grasp you can

actually see it happening because it's all on you there's no fucking scouts there's none of that i i don't know if i i mean obviously there's a part of that because you know i i i'd always been really good at all the things that I had tried. And then I was a failure. So yeah, there's a part of wanting to be a part of something elite for sure. But it was more, I just didn't want to be afraid anymore. And I thought that was going to do it. Like I would be surrounded by the strongest men there were. And if I hung, then they would look at me and they'd be like, yeah, he's good to go. And that would, I could release that sensation that I, I was afraid of not being able to perform,

of not, not being able to measure up. I think so there's a part of that in there, but it was much more contained in my own mind and my own perceptions. What about killing? No. Did you think about killing? No. Did you want to kill?

Yeah, I mean, not in the way where it was at the first. forefront of my thoughts at all, like, that wasn't it as like, oh, I'm going to go in and I'm going to kill people. That wasn't it at all. And I think a lot of that, because I think, I mean, if you look at the 80s and then, you know, in the early 90s, the movies that were personifying, you know, mass level killing and from a male perspective and that power and that. that comes with it. I don't know. I mean, I don't know if that was the thing that was enticing me at all. I mean, obviously, the more you go down into the program, the more that becomes a more significant because when you realize that, well, that's what this whole thing's about. Like,

it was interesting. It took me a long time. When I remember when I first got out, especially when I started working with kids, I would, you know, any kid that was saying, hey, I want to go in the teams or somewhere. And I would sit and talk to them. And I would never ask that question. And then a little bit later, our friend, Dan Sorrello, Taco, I talked to him because he was really influencing a lot of people when he first got out when he was running that CrossFit gym. I mean, he's put like, I think it's like 27 guys have come through him and gone in and succeeded. So I asked him, I was like, you know, what do you ask these guys? And he goes, well, the first question I ask is, do you want to go kill people?

And he's like, because that's the whole thing. And I was like, holy cow. But at that time, no, that wasn't. It was more just about filling the hole that fear had created in me. How did it feel to sign up? Like I was gaining control of my life. Like, I moved an inch forward, you know? Like, I finally, like, oh, man, that's big.

That's an adult decision. That's, I'm leaving. I'm leaving the protective nest of Boccauton and college. And now it's real. I have to go figure it out. Why do you think, when I hate to put it like this, but I don't know any other way, I was the same as everybody else that I served with,

including you. what is it that draws people to killing? Why are young men that are so interested in special operations, being a seal, being a green beret, being a ranger, being a Marine grunt, being a Marsok guy? What is the fascination with taking someone's life? Have you dove into that at all? Yeah, I mean, obviously... It's there.

We have some mutual friends that have an exorbitant amount of confirmed kills, right? And talking with them in those capacities, you... I mean, some of them, you get a... They would describe it as, well, I got really good at it. And I was really good at it. And I enjoyed it. You know, because you were able to... I think as you mature in the process,

and that that reprogramming really takes hold, that becomes the objective. Because at first it's like, can I hang in buds, right? Can I hang in hell week? And then once you, beyond that, then it changes completely. Then the focus begins where it's like, oh, no, that's not about hanging at all.

It's about how good you're going to integrate with this group of men to go do that job. that's it and it's all the other shit is just fluff it's just distraction right I just

I just don't under I mean and I think about it with myself like why did it I mean because that it is what it is

you go in and you want to kill another human being I think eventually for me it was right off the bat really

I just had a craving I wanted to I wanted to I wanted to I wanted to I wanted to legally kill somebody. Yeah. A bad guy.

Yeah. I can, I think I've, I mean, obviously you have those discussions in the midst of it. And, and I think it's so integrated into your, like the evolution of your consciousness, how you see yourself in the community, that that plays a major role in it, right? And that becomes almost the criteria, right, of your service. And I think that, that, that, that overwhelmed. realms naturally as it should because it's not a game. You're not playing a game. Like there's no game about any of it from the day you first walk out into

Coronado and you show up. Like there's no game. It's not a fucking game. And that, so if it's not a game, what's this about? And very quickly, you know, through your instructor staff constantly telling you, this is what it is. This is what it's about. This is what it is. as you get closer and closer.

But for me, going in and, you know, I got to, you know, I went through boot camp and then spent a little bit of time in Great Lakes and then went to Bethesda Naval Hospital and in a transitional wait period before my Bud's class started. Like, I wasn't thinking about any of that stuff. I was just thinking about, all right, am I in shape enough? Yeah, it should be all right. It should be good. You know, this shouldn't be.

Because, again, there were no. videos there were no books there were you had no idea what to expect it's like yeah i got this i'm a d1 athlete i'll be fine and it wasn't like oh i need to mentally prepare for this cataclysmic shift in the way i'm going to look at life and death now it was about the death component for me that was definitely there but it wasn't the it the reverse of that it wasn't like oh i'm going to deliver death it wasn't that for that for me at all not until much later and then and then and then But initially it was just like, you contemplate, but for me, I felt like every day I was just trying to hang on because, you know, my pathway was just not conducive as it would be for it or as it was for many other people. How was it checking in the buds?

It was nuts. I remember I drove cross-country with my friend Brian, who had been in boot camp, Brian and John. They were both 18 in boot camp, and we made it, you know, all good. We were in the same, you know, state flags division. And, like, I was the R-Poc, and they were the two watch leaders and all that. And which I couldn't even believe that. That was just mind-blowing to me that, you know, four months before I'm, you know, on mushrooms and state college. And now I'm in charge of this thing.

And it's just like, what is happening? and you know but then we went to Bethesda and they started training hard like and I was just like I was still going up to Penn State on weekends and hanging out and so then drove across country with Brian went to Thanksgiving in Arizona and then saw my cousins and then we checked and we drove straight Coronado and it was like a Sunday night and I remember like let's go check in and he's like, no, this is stupid. We're not, no, let's come back tomorrow morning first thing when everybody. I was like, dude, we're here. Let's check in. It's get in the barracks. Let's start. And so we go in and I go on that quarterdeck. And I'm like, hey, you know, Seaman Rutherford

reporting for duty type stuff. And the quarterdeck watch was looking at me like I was nuts. Like, what are you doing here on a Sunday night? Like, idiot, you know? And I was like, hey man we're here to check in he's like why don't you go somewhere else you know and and I'm like hey man we're here to check he's like I gotta wake up the watch I was like okay wake him up you know I have no idea

so he wakes up the chief that was asleep in that little place behind that quarterback and this dude comes out like a bull in a china shop and starts screaming at us drops us down banging him out beating the snot out of us right we get a little beat down you know this thing's going on i'm like arm shaking back swayed like oh my god he's screaming at me i'm going to make this my personal mission to make you quit in the next you know 48 hours and i'm like holy shit this is buds i didn't even sign my name in and then i got

nervous that was like uh-oh this is this is going to be hard and and then it started and and you know it was, like, overwhelming. What class were you? I started in 205, and I made it about, I think, three weeks, and the soft sand just crushed me. And my ITBs flared so bad, I couldn't bend my knees anymore. They just, they just locked out. And I go into medical, and they're like, all right, we're going to drop you. And I was like, wait, what?

And I had come under the Die Fair program because there was so short medics and the teams at the time that they gave this special program that if you signed up under this program, you'd go straight to Buds, straight to Buds, no A school, right? Straight to Buds. And then if you graduated Buds, then you would go to 18 Delta and get your Corman Quall. I was like, sweet. I was like, if I have any detour, if I go to any other command, the wheels could fall off immediately. So I wanted to just get straight there. 18 Delta, for anybody that's listening, it's a medic. Yeah, J-SOMC, joint, special operations, combat medic course.

And so I was, now I'm like, oh my God, the medic is tell, the doc is telling me he's going to drop me. I'm like, holy God, I just got here. and somebody was like, now, let's just roll them. And so they gave me a roll from 205 into 206. Let's rewind a little bit. Yeah. Let's talk about 1-1-day. I didn't get the 1-1 day.

This was an end-doc. This was an end-doc. Oh, shit. I didn't even get the 1-1 day. And that's when I was, like, that's why I was scared. And there was great guys in this class. I mean, class 205 was just, I remember the officer was just incredible. the OSC was in like hard charging guy.

And I was like, man, I really, and then I'm out of that class like that. Like you couldn't even think. And so they rolled me into 206. And now this time I'm like, all right, that's not happening. So it's, you know, two months in between. There were six classes back then. And there was two months.

So I'd go through the day. And then after work every day in the barracks, I'd go for beach runs every day just to work on my legs, just to get stronger. And as we, as 206 started in doc, I was, I was like, oh, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to be a road guard because road guards, even though you're sprinting and crossing the silver strand and all that, road guards would get to eat first. So you'd get to digest your food longer, right?

So you'd get in the chow hall, you eat first, and then you could actually sit and chill before ever because if you're in your regular boat crews one day boat crew one goes in first next day boat crew 13 the smurf crew goes in first right and you never know and if you're the last boat crew to go and you only got 40 minutes to eat you know you're finishing your food you're getting in line and next thing you know five minutes later you're at the CTT at the combat train tank puking your food because you only had four minutes to eat your food right and i was like road guard so the extra training road guard so i class up day one was unbelievable it was the coolest thing we had great class a bunch of amazing guys in there um really just tough guys uh and it was interesting that was

the first time they had a a film crew that was going to be with that crew um and do a little bit of filming of them and do a special i forget what tv show was on but was this a discovery channel No, that was later. That was when I was an instructor. They did that one. Wait, were you on that? All those, no, because I was a SQT instructor, but all those guys came into our class. Like I had, those were, I think that was like my first class I had as an SQT instructor.

So 206 starts week one, awesome. I'm having, like, I'm like, sweet, I'm going. And end of that first week, wake up Friday. day, my feet are killing me, I feel swollen, my heels are killing me. I tell my boat crew leader, he's like, you know, just get through the day. So I get through, I tell my, oh, my boat crew leader, he's like, hey, why don't you just run over a medical, just check it out? And so I go over to medical, and they're like, all right, we'll send you across street,

go across street, get x-rays, and I had stress fractures in both tibious and fibias. so that was just like devastating and I'm like what do I do and well in my oh I see was like well on Monday go in to medical and to talk to the doc so I got on my start uniform I go in and he's like that's it we're gonna nonverbal DOR you're dropped from training

because you're broken you're not gonna you're done And imagine, you know, it's not even a year since I left, and now I'm over, it's over. And for me, it wasn't, I wasn't going to A-school. I was going to a ship as an undesignated E-3. So I was going to be in the bowels of a ship, chip and paint until I could figure out an A-school or whatever. And so I was just shattered. And the doc's like, all right, go over to the base training officer, go tell him what's up. up. So I go over to the base training officer and the grinder was, I think it was like first

phase, second phase, BTO, and then the quarterdeck. And I walk in and I'm standing out attention, you know, stiff and just like on the precipice of just melting down. And he was like, all right, Rutherford, what's going on? I go, sir. And he's like, hey man, stop the sir stuff. At ease. You better just talk to me like and tell me what's going on. And I was flabbergasted. I was like, I don't know what's happening. I don't know why this is happening to me. I tried to get in shape.

I've been working hard. Try to get my legs ready. And I've never had anything like this before. I played, you know, as a D1 athlete. And he's like, all right, wait here. So he walks out. He's gone for five minutes or so or whatever. Comes back in.

And he says, well, It appears that you've got a little Bud's Angel on your shoulder. Someone seems to think that if you could get healthy, you might make a decent frogman someday. So do you want a single roll or a double roll? And I'm like, I didn't even know what to say. He's like, you better tell me what you want or otherwise, you know, this is over quick. And I was like, up and smart me, I'm like, I'll take a double roll.

dumbest thing I could have ever done in my life, right? Why is that? It's just too much time. I mean, four months is just way too much time because it starts to grind on you where all your friends are moving on and moving forward and you're just sitting in the same spot. But you're going in, you're getting, you know, I mean, you know, in between those phases, it wasn't like a regular day, but you're still doing two, three workouts a day.

swimming a ton you're still you know running the chow you're still doing it but you're not going anywhere and that was hard that was a really difficult time i was grateful because i i had a friend mark who was had been to buds a couple time before and he was like an e5 e6 and he had a place off off base that he would let me sleep at and like he figured out how to finagle it so i could go sleep there And it was just hard. I got into, you know, that was when I started drinking a little bit and partying, you know, with the guys who were waiting to class up or whatever, or guys that I knew that were in classes.

I knew a ton of dudes that were in 207 and would hang out as they were moving forward or my two of five or six buddies. And it just was, it was a long time and really started doubting myself again. And then thankfully, I made it to getting classed up with 208, and that was a life-saving thing. The guys that I went through 208 with were just incredible human beings, Tom, Gary, you know, just Jeff, Mark, Rob. I mean, my boat crew going through Hell Week was, they were just tight. of men. I mean, all of them went on to elite level careers, really just performing at the highest. And these were the guys that I was in a boat crew with. And it was phenomenal. And it just,

it was, it was awesome. I'm not going to say it was easy because that's not, it was not easy, right? Struggled with everything a little bit, you know, drownproofing and not tying and all your typical things but it was it was all great because they were so motivated my boat crew leader was a guy named adam smith who was the admiral son and you know the one time i i got close to wanting to quit was it was in hell week on wednesday night and and was it we had first off when we started like it was it was bizarre it was like an omen right it was the friday before the Sunday we were all lined up on a grinder

and Admiral Smith came in and went down the line and inspected the boat cruise or whatever and he came to ours and he stand in front of his son and his other brother was a seal too and he looks at us and go sir you know is your Bo Cooridi yes sir you know the whole thing

ooh yeah sir and it was just a cool moment between a father and a son and I was really proud to be with these guys I mean they were they were so strong like so strong and so capable and you like felt you know that feeling you feel stronger with them like you can do more and uh he looked around and he said uh looked at the instructors he said all right guys uh all right instructor staff uh i would like you to to take it easy

on this boat crew for me essentially just like light them up yeah light them up. I did, we did, what do you call it, two steel piers. We did, like, in breakout, we lost two guys quit immediately, and they didn't reorder our boat crew for almost like 24 hours. We only had five guys. And they just leaned into us, and nobody broke. And it was just incredible.

Like, everybody got stronger and stronger. and stronger and like Bing remember Bing man was just he was just like had that look just angry like always just pissed you and he remind me a lot

of each other and and but like nothing was going to break him and he'd just look at you and you'd want to like do more like get your hands under the boat or under the log or whatever it was and they were all

and then Rob was always just smiling you know and just you You just, you work, but it was Wednesday night. We had done, we had done boat passage, and it was, it was an El Nino year. What's bold passage? Where you paddle out, pass, you dump the boats, flip them back in and come out, right? Surf passage, I guess, yeah.

And it was an El Nino. And so it was like 20, 25 foot waves. It was the biggest surf in 10 years that California had seen. and the instructors were like send them out right and when you talk about a yard yard sale

there were boats and chemlights and dudes in water for like a mile spread out while it was people were getting nuts and we had a couple guys in our boat crew

that surf so I grew up surfing and Adam had surfed and some other guys and so we just got lucky we timed to set and we got out and we're out there

and we're like all right how do we We hide our chemlights, so we don't have to go back in, right? And then, you know, Adam's like, no, let's go, flip it over. And so we're going in. And, you know, I was three-man port side. And we're going. And I think, you know, I think we're timing set.

And that boat just starts going up and up and up. And that wave just went like that and just through the boat once it was breaking. I remember being 20 feet in the air, whatever it was, and Rob was like 10 feet below me, you know, guys are in the air. Remember, don't lose your paddle, don't lose. All I could think about was not that I'm going to hit, fall on my buddies beneath me or the boat's going to land on me or drive it. All I could think was about don't let go on my paddle, don't let go on my battle.

And we hit, and obviously the train rack, the next following sets at you, and I remember coming up and I, I'm going to die right now. It was so big and so aggressive and so, it was chaos. And you couldn't see anybody's chemlight because, you know, you got those old K-pox that are strangling you in your helmet and you just like, don't lose, all I could think, don't lose my paddle. Like I didn't even think start swimming inshore, right? And finally, you know, figured out God,

into shore and at that's apparently at that point one of the senior instructors would be like maybe we ought to not send them out there anymore right you know because dudes were just quitting quitting quitting quitting and finally we got together they brought us in they stopped and then we went down and did chief speech and at chief speech they do this thing and it's uh they build this big bonfire right and you sit around on the edge of the bonfire and the way it was work. They made it sound. This was before, I think right after Midrats. And one of the instructors was like, all right, here's out of work. You guys come up. You tell the funniest story you've ever told in your life. And then you stay up as long as the next person's story isn't funnier than yours,

right? And so I was like, oh, this is going to be awesome, right? Because I can, I've got some funny stories so it started and they were good and some dudes would last two guys now when you're there when you're in the line you're just far enough away from the flame where you can't really get feel it like you might like a window blow and you feel a little bit but you're still wet and you're you know you're just jackhammering a whole thing and but if you're there next you're right in front of the fire next to the instructor so i'm like that's it if i can stay up there tell this best story i've ever told my life it you know that'll that'll be it and so it was my turn and there were some dudes that were hilarious in that class i mean hilarious people like funny as hell and so it's my turn

i get up and i tell this funny story about uh a big bad wolf mask a disco ball and in a girl i knew in in college, right? And it was, like, everybody's laughing. Like, it's laughing their brains out. And, of course, I extended the story. So it's like a 20-minute story. So now I'm starting to feel dry. It kills.

The instructors are laughing. My hands are starting to dry. I'm starting to dry off in my face. I stopped shaking for the first time since Sunday night. And I think I went, like, five or six dudes. And so in that moment, like now my boots dried, I could feel my feet for the first time, and I got comfortable, and I forgot where I was. And then a dude got up and told, you know, a hilarious study. Everybody was laughing, and the instructor looks over at me and goes, what are you laughing at, Rutherford?

And I'm like, huh? And he's like, go hit the surf. And I run, you know, that did it. Like, that's, I hit that freezing cold surf and it's, and it broke me. And I was like, I can't go back out there. Like, I can't do it. So I hit the surf. I'm jack hammering again.

Then something happened. Next thing you know, an instructor was pissed at us, made us surf tortured. We're in there, getting surfed, and they're just screaming at us. And the waves are huge. And I'm holding arms with Adam. And I, and I look, and I was like, dude, I'm done. I'm going to quit. I can't do this.

There's no way. I can't go to combat. I can't. I don't have what it takes for this. I can't even stay mentally engaged, you know, when I'm dry, you know, how am I going to go to calm? And it just spiraled. And God bless that, that man, he saved my career. He was like, dude, don't, you know, don't quit. He's like, wait until you're done with this. And then we'll quit. And I'll never forget, like, right after that, he had talked himself, just get through this. this and then if you want to quit i'll let you quit and right after that um bravehearted come out around then sometime i forget when it was but our one of our senior officers he's one of toughest best dudes i've ever met in my life this guy tom he screams freedom and the whole class like got got hard and then we just powered through it and made it through and I was on top of the world. I was like, I just went through the hardest thing in my entire life and with these men

and they didn't quit and they didn't let me quit. I was finally, I was like, this is where I want to be. And that was a powerful moment. Who was your first call after Hell Week? I think I don't remember. I don't know. I don't know. Could have been my parents.

Could have been my girlfriend at the time. You know, I was just like, make sure you pick me up as soon as they let me go first tomorrow morning. Because it was like an idiot, you know, everybody else, like, stayed in the barrack and didn't move. I got picked up. We went down to PB. We ate breakfast with a couple other dudes who had already threw, and then we started drinking. And so by like noon, after how week I was already starting to drink. And just like, you know, all right, now I'm hard as nails.

This is what Frogman do, you know, and that was the culture of the time. This was pre-9-11, and I think that was really what began to manifest as that culture. Like, I'm a freedom, frightened, root, and toot, and barrel, chest, and fighting fucking Frogman. And I'm going to, you know, go harder than everybody else. And that started to come in. And I think a lot of that was from my insecurity coming back in a new way this time. It was more about how am I going to. to live up to these guys? How am I going to measure up? Because what I saw and what I was

witnessing is people were just hard. I remember some dudes. It seemed like even in the worst, they seemed like they weren't phased by it. Not that they weren't faced, but that it wasn't going to bug them. It wasn't going to bug them. And that was like powerful. There was a guy who I really became close with. His name is Henry. And, Henry was the, it was an E5, was the senior matter for our class, and he was kind of shorter and what didn't have like a seal build, and he'd been a rescue swimmer in the Navy, and those those instructors would beat the hell out of them, like just for fun, just because you don't look like a Navy's, your uniforms disheveled, your piece of shit, and they would

just beat that poor dude. And I remember he would go over, you know, to report injuries, or, you know, we've got this many guy quit this many injuries this is what our class count is and go report to each phase every morning and every afternoon and so he would come over to the cage in the pit and he'd be like all right all right i need a swim buddy to go over there and fucking dudes would like scatter right because nobody wanted because they knew he was going to take a beat down and so finally i'd be like yeah i'll go with you because i was going to be a medic i admired him he took heavies and And every time we'd go over there, we would, he would just, they'd just like to beat on him.

They wanted him to quit. And like, I remember on the dirty name, because he was short, he was like five, five, six, five, seven maybe. And the dirty name just crushed him, right? The one for, if you're listening, you jump up on a one little stump and then you got to clear like a six foot pole and then up to a nine foot pole. And there's probably like three to four feet in between them. And if you're short, you just have to wing it, like all in. like to go for it. I remember being on an O-Course one day, watching him.

And O-Course, I always liked the O-Course. It was like, my relax. But my only time I got to relax because I love the O-Course. And he was stuck, he was just smoked because they'd smoked them already a couple of times. And he was on that dirty name for like an hour. Or however long we were there, they just do it again, do it again, do it again. And later we found out he actually cracked a couple ribs. and he never quit he never whined he never turned himself into medical nothing and and so that that's

the caliber of men you're around and i was like am i that hard am i that tough do i have enough but you i you know that the whole mindset of iron sharpens hard that's true and i learned that then with those those men in 208 how was the rest of buds horrible where were your hang-up I have Dive Face. I failed pool comp. My only thing I ever failed. And that was- Describe pool comp. Pool comp is, for simple terms, hell weak in the pool, right? It's where you're fast-tracked into open circuit diving. You have twin 80s on your back. And like, day one, first, you know, hour in pool on Monday, you're doing buddy breathing. right, with these old school, you know, hose intake, you're doing it above and below. And then day two, you're doing, you know, ditching dawn. You take your gear off a specific way.

Everything has, you know, the straps are perfect. There's a sequence. Every, everything in the teams has a sequence and soft, especially, because you have to be able to replicate it under duress, right? And so that meticulousness is really the, if you can master that meticulousness, I think buds becomes it makes more sense to people well i was never a meticulous guy so but that week i was doing good i was my my swim buddy was this guy john good good guy a little bit younger than me but our charger and we did great all the way through um the uh the week and um that friday you know

we got up to it and it was pool comp and pool comp is you start on the side of pool combat training tank 20s on flippers on jump in go down on the lines on the bottom you get on your hands and knees and you walk on your hands and knees back and forth across the nine foot and then the instructors come down and simulate four different types of problem sets first is a surfeit mask ripped off fins ripped off next one is a i think an inhalation or an exhalation problem right turn off your j valve turn off your air you know fix mess up your hose then third one is a ditch and dawn right put that your equipment back on and then the fourth is the whammy knot where they just completely take your hose stand on your head and tuck them in the back of your manifold and then you have to get those and and

for some reason i don't know i was i was dealing with some pretty heavy stuff with my girlfriend at the time, struggling, was fatigue, was tired, you know, all the typical things that everybody faces every day. But you don't, those are the things like guys don't necessarily talk about in buds, right? It's like you leave the command and you can, if you leave, and if you can live off base or whatever, but like there's an aftermath of the day, like a psychological recuperation that takes place. And sometimes if you don't have that in check, you're not recovering properly. You're not getting, you know, you're not ready or prepared for the next day. And by then, I mean, I had been

there a long time. I mean, coming up on a year, I'd already been at Buds. And Friday, I was like, all right, I'm good as long as I don't get instructor Watson. As long as I don't get him, Adam Watson, man, the red-headed devil, dude. As long as I don't get Watson, I'm good. And I go up, it's my turn. Rutherford on the deck, I turn around, guess he's sitting right out there. Dude, I was up in, I want to say it was like 12 seconds. First surf it came down on top of me, fins off, bounding me off thing.

You know, I'm like, I'm going to sing. going, I'm going up and come up, I feel fine, you know, just freaked out. And then he, you know, comes up, Rutherford, fail. And so then you get another one that day. I failed that one on a twisted strap or something or, no, sequence. I did a sequence backward. Failed on that one. Remediation all weekend where you're practicing with your buddies.

And then Monday hits and you're right back in a pool. failed the third one you get four attempts and then the fourth one i got in i was like i got this i did everything great came up i feel fine and and it was one of the officers of of second phase and it's like sorry rutherford uh twisted strap i think my chest strap was twisted and fail you're out you're old and they remember they took us and they put there was like seven of us that failed and we had to sit at one end of the pool while everybody else who had passed was down here and they were moving on and that was it and I had failed and so I was at a 208 and that again was just devastating because you start to feel it right you start to feel the wear and tear you start to feel it in your shoulders and your hips

and your your feet are screwed and your hands are aching all the time and you feel it and it builds up And then to fail, to be a failure now, to fail an evolution was really difficult for me. Thankfully, again, I had those seven guys. Henry was one of them, Larry, Chris, a couple other guys, John, they were part. And we got in that in between. And, you know, for my, my penance, just almost like every day or every other day, we would go to the combat train tank and guess what we would practice. Poolcom. So for two months, waiting for class 209 to come up, I would practice pool comp.

And needless to say, 209 came up. got in 209. I was the first guy in the water. I was up and passed. Rutherford passed. I was like, yes, done. And then some guy, one of the students had a problem. They shut it down training. And I was like the only guy that had passed that day. And so I'm like, all right, sweet. And that night I went out and PB. And I was like, yeah, I'm going to go. I'm going to, I made it. I'm parted in. I go out and I walk into this Irish bar in P.B. And I walk in and it was like, you know, in Blue or Animal House, the music stops.

Everybody looks over and it's like 10 instructors are sitting there. And I'm like, and they're like, get over here now. And I came over. I was like, drinks on me, you know, buy everybody, bought everybody a beer. And they were cool. And these two instructors in particular, one's name was, Brian and one's name was Keith. And I sat down with him and I remember the first time an instructor had ever talked to me.

Because right, you show up, they're like these gods, there are these things that are larger than life and, you know, instructor Aschelman, instructor Decker and, you know, these just pipe hitters of, I mean, you know, Master Chief, Danny Chalker was our command master chief. He was a plank owner of SEAL Team 6. And, you know, the head of PTRR was, you know, Warrenosa Rework, who was also a plant owner of SEAL Team 6. And so, you know, these are the men, you know, chief audits and all these guys that, like, you, they're not human. And so they're unattainable. And you're like, when do I get to feel that?

And that night was the first time, and Brian and Keith sat me down. And I never forget, I asked both of them. I said, well, you know, like, how do you, what, how would you describe what it's like? And they're like, it's a lifestyle. And I was like, I don't understand. They're like, it's 24-7. If you want to be a good frogman, you have to be committed to this 24-7. Every day you're thinking about this.

Everything else in your life you have to put aside. You cannot let anything move into the forefront of your consciousness. You have to be 100% dedicated. And that was amazing for me, because that was, and then I asked them both. I remember asking Brian first, I go, well, you know, what advice would you give me? He goes, learn how to flip it on and off. And it's like, what do that mean? It's like, learn how to take the pain in the intensity and flip the switch on the emotional aspect of it and then turn it on when you need.

excuse me and I go well you know he'd been in like 15 years or so and I think

he's with like 12 or something and I go well how do you do that and he's like I don't know I still haven't figured it out and then the next day

showed up and I worked the pool deck and every instructor that was in that like beat me down through the whole time the whole class the class

so I think I must have done like a thousand pushups that day and I don't even know how many eight count bodybuilders but it was worth every second that I'd made it through that. So that was cool. And then I was, you know, officially with 209 and ended up finishing with 209, which was definitely hard.

And those guys were amazing, just wonderful, you know, Doug, Liam Landry, Mike, all these incredible guys in that platoon mark. just they again it's like these are if you want to create a reflect a positive reflection that you can aspire to

surround yourself around really motivated ambitious young men and that's what it was for me how did it feel for you to graduate beyond a relief. I mean, at that point, it was February 97. I started in November 95, and I finished in February 97. So it was over a year. And I remember being on the island just hanging on by

a thread, you know, but I finished and it was, it was done. And it wasn't, I wasn't, I wasn't, I didn't feel immeasurably confident. I didn't feel like I was on top of the world at all. I felt like, wow, that was really, really hard. And I knew it was going to get harder. And I was like, uh-oh, like, am I going to be ready for this? Am I going to, like, how am I going to do? And so it wasn't, it wasn't as much of a, woo-hoo kind of feeling, you know, as much it was like, okay, what's next? And am I ready?

Can I go into whatever the next thing was? So, what year is this? It was February 1997. 97. Yeah. Where do you go from there? This is where the beauty, can I, let me just backtrack one little statement. The guy who had saved my career at the beginning in 2006 was Warren Officer Rewards.

He was the one who told the, and I didn't find this out until much later in my career, He was the one who had told the base training officer that if Rutherford is healthy, he might make a decent frogman someday. And the reason he said that because every time I'd have to be overwhelmed by that doubt, by that fear, which was still palpable every day in me, I figured out a way because I'd always been the motivator in all my teams, whether I was quarterback or captain team or whatever it was. I always felt like that was a huge component of that responsibility to lift up your teammates, right? And so what I would do to distract my own sense of fear, I would find a guy that was struggling and then I'd try and motivate him. I'd direct my own, I'd compartmental as my own anguish to try and lift somebody else to keep me distracted from my own inability. And so he had witnessed that and was like, all right, then, you know, and that's what he saved my career for sure.

So I graduate, I graduate Buds, and because I was in this die fair program, this medic program, we didn't immediately go check on board a team and then start. Back then, there was no SQT as it is in its current form, or even when I was in KSQU, you used to go to a team, and each team ran its own training. That was your probationary training called Sealed Tactical Training. And so, like, I wasn't even assigned to a team yet. I was at TDI and I went to Team 5 and I was there, you know, cleaning the shitters on a daily basis in the mastered arm shack. And I was picking up cigarette butts by the platoon huts.

And I was, you know, they didn't even give us equipment to do PT in or anything. I remember it was middle of winter and we were doing ocean swims or bay swims. And I was like hyping out. We did a bay swim from the bridge. around I was hyping out and the exo like had to push me up onto the beach and he's like go do some jumping jacks and then I finished it because they didn't have any wetsuits to give me or I wasn't worthy of a wetsuit and and so for these four months I'm in limbo and I'm just cleaning shitters and like I'm a new guy but I'm worse than a new guy because I'm not

checked on board team five I'm just there temporary duty until jump school so I do that made it through that that was tough that was a tough tough one there was the the the mastered arms guy hated me just because i started getting a little chip on my shoulder at that time because i was like wait a minute we just made it through buds and now because of this medic thing like i'm in limbo and i got a clean shitters for four months and like it started getting on my nerves a little bit and um you know we're partying hard and so I like that distracts you and you're like you're not again I'm not moving forward in my career like I have buddies that graduated 205 they're already in a platoon workup right they're already moving forward they're doing the job and now I'm in TDIY again so that was that was really

frustrating but we ended up going to jump school that was fun we all went over there we had a blast you know jump school's a joke but it's it's what I like about it though is I love the way the army able to put mass people through a program and do it pretty well. You know, I respected the black hat guys and, you know, I mean, obviously the extensiveness of the, I mean, you're just graduating but, you know, do pull-ups and you can just do pull-ups forever. But I like the way they ran their program. I was my first introduction in Army. Then from there, I go right into 18 Delta, and that was July of of

July of 97 and that's where things like really were like whoa this is serious stuff and 18 Delta began yeah when did you when did you get your

tried it it was so 18 Delta was supposed to be six months I was there eight months So that was July, when we were in New York, New York, August through November. And then we had to take the civilian paramedic qualification.

So I showed up, I failed the cardiology part of that. So I had to stay longer. So we graduated 18 Delta in January of 98, drove cross country back. I got SEAL Team 1. Checked on board SEAL Team 1 in February. of 98. So I finally had a team. Stoked, ready to go, get me in STT. Nope. I go back to work in the mastered arm shack, cleaning shitters again. After 18 Delta? After 18 Delta. Yep. Why? I don't know. I don't know. It's not like it's a team one. It's not like you're

going to complain. You know, I, that's where you're going, you're working. You're They don't need you in medical. They don't need you in training cell. So you've got to wait to go through STT. That's not until the summer. So you're going to work in a mastered arm shack. I remember I got there and I went in and it was BM1 Coop. And I remember I came in one day and I was like, all right, I'm motivated.

And I gave them like four or five chits, right? And the one was sniper school, free fall school, calm school. I put them all in. I was like, hey, you know, petty officer Rutherford, here's my chits. I want to go to these schools. And I'll never forget, he's sitting there, and he looks at it. He goes, oh, this is a good one, man. Yeah, I went to sniper school after my, like, third platoon.

He rips it up, and he drops it into it. And he goes, I'll put it in the circular file cabinet right here. And then, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, this looks a calm school. I'd be gone. That'd be funny. He goes, yeah, yeah, there he goes right there. He puts it in. And it just rips them all.

And he goes, hey, why don't you go out to the grinder and clean the grinder? There's some trucks out there that need to get clean. Why don't you go do that? And that was it. And it was like, again, like, really? Dude, I just got out of, like, the top medical training program in all special operations, you know, spent a month in New York City in the, in the ERs and on the ambulances. I mean, we saw hundreds and hundreds of patients. you know, had my first person die on me, you know. It was like October 31st. We thought it was

going to be an insane night and show up difficulty breathing, walk in and says a room half the size of this, an apartment, and there's this firefighter work in this guy. And I was with these two experienced paramedics. They're like, art, rook, got on a guy. And so I worked this guy for 45 minutes and then they're like all right he's dead stop working him and that's that the first time you'd seen death yeah that was it that was the first time how'd you handle that um the hardest part for me was i felt like i'd performed what i needed to perform like i went through the whole code that you learn you know but when you stop it's it's abrupt it's not what you thought like in a movie there's there's a solemnness or there's whatever you know at a funeral you're not

you don't you're not intimate with the the transition right you're not it's none of that it's like and now I'm in the middle of it and I never get the guys on the ground and his wife and his son and his girlfriend are standing out of his head and like you're the senior medic dude And he's on the phone with the doc, and he looks up. And he goes, all right, that's it. Rook, caught it. It's called, the doc called it. And I'm still going, and I'm like this.

And I'm like, and the other guy's at his feet, and he's holding his cup of coffee, right? His New York cup of coffee. And he's like, hey, man, stop. He's like, pick up all your shit, let's go. And I'm looking up here at them, and I'm looking over here. And I'm looking at this dead guy. And that was tough, like, because you saw the pain immediately in them. and it just

and it was it became almost like he was just a piece of meat at that point and I was like hey I'm hungry let's go pick up your shit and as we're working getting up the cops come in from outside and I'm like what about him

it's not our problem man that's the cops problem now and that's just like holy shit and like the whole rest of the night I was just like what just happened. And there was a, that was the thing that really was challenging for me because I chose to be a medic because I thought that that was the thing that was going to enable me to

hold the artist in me. Like it's the empathy. So if I become a medic and I can save people's lives, if I ever have, you know, the opportunity to take someone's lives, it'll counterbalance it. So I wanted that. And I also felt like that was something that would be good because it's a component of that service that makes me feel good, right? When you're a good medic, your team needs you and they rely on you and there's a part of that that's just important. And so like that was the thing for me. Like if I'm going to be like that'll, I can earn my way as a medic and be able to stand amongst great men if I'm a good medic. And so that's, you know, that's what I tried to do. But that was the first one. Yeah, that was the first challenging one. Yeah.

So when did you get your try to? There's the great question. That summer went through STT, and this was the first time they combined both coasts. Because what had happened before was out of team, you'd show up, every team was different. Every team had a different cycle of when they'd start STT. You'd go through this three-month course. It was a probationary period. Then you come out and you test out. You go to every, you know, the dive locker, the air locker, armory, you know, First Lieutenant, all these groups, and you test out your knowledge base on all those, you know, there's the blanket and they flip the blanket and every, there's ten different weapons. or whatever, five, seven different weapons

and you have to reassemble and under time and have to ascend a dragger and then break it down and the air level and all these tests. And you pass that, then you go to your chiefs board and then you get a warder your Trident. That's the way it was working. Well, every team was doing it different.

Like, you'd go to one team and they'd fast track it. Like Team 5, you show up, they immediately put you in SDT, and then you go do it, and then you come back and you test and boom, Trident, right into a plate. other teams your probationary period would be longer and so everything was kind of out of whack and there was no continuity there was no pipeline and it was problematic and people were complaining

because you know part of that getting your tried in is your special duty pays all this and so they combined STT to get everybody all the teams all these guys there's like 72 of us in this group and it was so much fun that's one of the most fun I ever had in the teams was were those three months it was i met so many amazing guys jerry and nick and and i mean just endless amounts of people big mike bearden and he was the first team guy from my thing that ended up dying he he burned in on a parachute accident right after stt not much long after but like these it was just fun like everything about it was the training was fun the guys were fun we had a blast and that was good so i felt like i was getting going finished that check back on

back at one took my boards past my ports went in my chiefs board and just got crushed in my chiefs board and that was that was heavy because like you know you're always looking for a chief's approval you're always looking for them like add boy good job way to go and you know team one had some I mean, there was still a guy from Vietnam when I was there, a master chief. And then another senior chief that I think had 13 platoons at that time. And these guys were, like, they ran to show. And so I went into that chiefs board and you're sitting in a chair or, you know, folding chair. And there's, you know, I think eight chiefs staring at you.

And they just lit me up, you know. Why couldn't you make it through buds straight through? Why'd you quit college? You're quitter, aren't you? Why are you a problem? And they just let me up and I did not perform well. I was just like, you know, and then they give you these, if this, if you were around and this happened and you saw someone do this,

would you report them and all this stuff? And it was just, you know, I was not sure of myself. I was stunned that they were attacking me because I quit college. And like, they just got me. like they got under me and any insecurity you had they'd brought it they and and at that point i was doing better a lot better but i was still nervous i was still because now i'm out of team and team one and there was some just pipe hitters at that team and and and after s t i went to work in the in the training in training cell i was a support corpsman on trips and my boss was

Derek. Amazing dude. Brilliant. And then there were these other guys who were a couple guys who were on the Patea, who was at the Patea air raid in Panama. There was another guy who would end up, this guy Wally, who ended up being my first platoon chief, who had, you know, he'd been in combat before. And like, there was this master chief, Will Gile from a damn neck guy, Matt Bouchoir, Dan Sorrelitz, where I first met Dan, Matt Lennig, Chris. scoot, like, team one was full of, like, they were these impressive, like, just frogmen. That's the best way.

They were frogmen. And so, like, do this. And now I'm, I, that was a place where I was like, all right, here's an opportunity for me to learn because I was going on these travel, these training trips with platoons. And so I was like, all right, this is where I can redeem myself after that miserable board. and so I was like what can I do how can I help like first one out last one there what can I do and some of them started to really kind of I'm not going to say mentor me but they were they noticed and so they would start letting me sit around and listen and they would teach me and so that was

really cool and then I got assigned to a platoon and we were starting January whatever back from break or whatever it was and it was hotel platoon And I remember we started, I still didn't have my trident, right? There was four new guys in the platoon, five new guys, one, one, J.O., junior officer. Everybody had their trident. Everybody's there, and I didn't have my trident. So I went to my senior, I'm like, hey, man, what's up? And he's like, oh, don't worry about it.

It's like two months into it, training, almost three months. Finally, I go up to my senior chief, and I'm like, you know, hey man, can I get a trident? And he's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, let me go in. So apparently he went into the command master chief and said, hey, is there a reason why you guys haven't given Rutherford his trident yet? And he apparently he said, oh, I totally forgot about it. Yeah, give it to him. What?

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Now, I remember when that happened, I mean, you, that's about as angry as you can get, right? But, you know, as I got older and moved down along in my career and out of the team significantly, and you just go back to it, well, maybe there was something I wasn't doing. Maybe I wasn't what they had hoped I would be, or maybe I was letting them down. And it felt like I was, there was mixed messages coming.

and but yeah that was a sobering experience for sure that really really that was that was hard to go through

but I got it and thus started the the How did they give it to you? Oh he just like there was a pinning at team one and it was like

the guys that were behind me that had come up who were in a platoon and there was a big pinning. Everybody was there, came out and had a great CEO at the time. Guy was just the stuff. Former damn neck guy.

He would go on ops. Like, I remember when I was... How did they pin you? On the back, we went out back grinder, on the berm, went out at the back. Actually, we're on a grinder. I forget there's like six. There's a picture of one of the chiefs hosing us down out there.

So I think there was six of us. Santov come up. He puts it on. And then everybody in the team came by and just drilled me as hard as they could in my chest. And it must have been 25, 30 guys. They hit me so hard my trident bent. And then one of the pins in the back broke off in my chest. But it was the happiest day of my life.

So what I'm trying to get at here is the backs are off on the pen. Those three pins. I think there's three, right? There's three, yeah. They mash it into your chest. It's full-blood. Blood wings. What?

Blood-wings. Blood wings. That's right. Full-blown as hard as they could hit. And in my platoon, like, they lit me up. They hit me as hard as they could possibly hit me. Like, I had a black and blue mark on my chest for, I don't know, week plus. Just destroyed me.

It was, in my opinion, it was one of the greatest traditions there was in the teams that, I guess, is no longer there. It's not there anymore? No, I don't think so. What a shame. It is. What a shame. I remember at SQT, we actually used to have to hide it. Yeah, we would hide it.

Yeah, there'd be the big ceremony. The Niospest Warfare Center, you know, cap would come in, pin everybody. No one was there. We'd do it in the Bays over at SQT, the Bays. We'd do it in there. And then afterward, we'd have everybody line up outside medical, and they'd come in one at a time, and we'd all just drill them in there.

So we ended up trying to keep it going. Yeah, I remember your buddy Rick Slater punched me through a door when I had mine pinned on, right through the fucking bathroom door. Rick. Well, I mean, how did that, I mean, how do that feel? What do that feel like to call your dad and tell them I got it? So my parents had flown out, and we went up, they used to stay up in Laguna,

and so they were like, hey, come up. So went up there, we stayed up at this hotel in Laguna on the beach, and my grandfather had passed away a few years before when I was out there, really hard on my old man, obviously. And I had gone up to his house. They had lived up in Pals Verde's, and I'd gone up and check on the house a couple of times and took one of his handkerchiefs.

My grandfather always had a handkerchief with him, always, and would always be right there with it, like true old school, and usually we'd have it monogram. And so I got a monogram handkerchief of my grandfather, and I took that trident, and I put it in a handkerchief, and I remember being in the, we'd gone to dinner, and we got back in the room. And I said,

I said, you know, Dad, the only thing I've ever wanted from you is for you to be proud of me. And I pulled it out and I gave it and he unwrapped it. And, you know, it was a pretty heavy moment. So, yeah. And he said, I've always been proud of you, son. So, yeah, it was good. That's awesome, man. So you're in?

I guess. I felt like I was in. You're in. I felt like I was in. I was in for sure. Where do you go from here? A year and a half of absolute madness. Like, again, this is pre-9-11.

We were, you know, team one, Southeast Asia, platoon, and it was just full tilt. Like, we called ourselves Hotel Hell. And I'd designed this, you know, our patch and it was this this h which was on fire and then you know the team the one behind it and it was a black patch and i think i think out of the 16 of us i think like 10 dudes got the tattoo on them you know and we were we were crazy absolutely out of our minds it was more fun than anything i've ever even experienced in my life i mean we had my o i see

shotgun jewett wild bill jewett was you know i'd been in two or six with him he'd made it all the way through buds with stress fractures never did anything like just a bad hard dude and he was our platoon line he was wild he was a wild man uh our our chief was was wiley graves um one of the most influential men of my entire life like grew up in florida dad was a doctor so kind of similar you know real smart sophisticated was a reader you know had that little eccentricity but was hard man and could hang and was brilliant and was a phenomenal medic and always pushed me to elevate my game you know and then didn't put up with my shit because at that point i started getting a little cocky and started getting a little little overzealous shall we say um you know um

What were you guys doing over there? I mean, when we first deployed, it was, we went over and it was going to be nothing. We were just doing J-sets. We were just going. We spent almost a month in the Philippines, almost a month in Thailand. We had the Korean SEALs come to Guam. We were working out of Guam. And then we did this one cool thing, we did like a nuclear surveillance stuff in Australia, went down to Australia.

And that was around the Olympic time and stuff. Nuclear surveillance? Yeah, yeah. What is that? We used to have these devices where you could detect nuclear material. And we were in charge of doing it on the water because it was a big hardener. Sydney Harbor was a massive harbor. So, you know, we would drive around on these boats with these devices and you could detect.

And we would train and they would have, you know, small little, you know, controlled people. pieces of nuclear material that they would hide and we would try and figure out. We did all low pro and fishing boats and stuff. And, you know, that was kind of cool for sure. But the other stuff was just mayhem, absolute mayhem. Barfights, women. You name it. Typical.

Insanity. It was ridiculous. I mean, it was, I don't know how, first I don't know how anybody didn't die. I mean, the amount of alcohol we consume. The other is, I don't know. I mean, there were some definite divorces that came out of that. I'm sure. But that was the culture at the time.

You know, and so part of it was you're frustrated, but there's nothing going on. And that was kind of the culture. Oh, well, we might as well go have fun. I mean, we were training. We were training the ties and the Filipinos and, you know, we're doing stuff. but it's not like, oh, we're getting ready to go to war. It was a completely different mindset. Were you disappointed?

Yeah, for sure. When did that kick in? The disappointment on the trident. That started to really get to me. I didn't understand. And then for all, well, I should probably back up. Because of the medic stuff, every time my career would get going, there'd be a derailment of the medical requirement.

Like, I'd have to go do medical, do medical, as everybody else was going. Like, when I, in my first platoon, there were guys that were in their second platoon that graduated Buds after me. So here I am, like, and not just, I think, like, a couple classes, too, some of them. And so that was frustrating, you know, that I'm always behind. And I was like, man, because all you want to do is just get after it. You just want to go do the job. And so for me, it just, I was like, the needs of the Navy were a lot. It was a lot more, for me alone.

Now, other guys have had wonderful experiences. They were straight through. They got right to it. They did amazing. They thrived. And maybe that was part of that inner insecurity that was emerging, that, or maybe it was arrogance or I'm not sure. But it was frustrating, all of it.

Like, I was just like, is this it? Is this like, I, you know, left the college in that whole life. And now, this was, so that was, you know, May of 95, and this is February of 2000. And I'm like right back in this lifestyle of, you know, living hard and getting after it, you know. I mean, it just, it was like no one, no one, we took so much pride that nobody could out party us, that nobody could out.

Like, I remember being in Fort Jaffe, Arkansas. You know, we used to go out there that beautiful range, and we show up. And, like, first night, I think we left the bar at five in the morning. We drank, we drank them out of tequila, we drank them out of vodka. I mean, like, it was... Why do you think that the seal cultures, at least back then, because it was the same when I was in, you know, and why is it so...

Why is the culture the way it is, bar fights, booze, womanized? I think the further away from combat you get, the more complacent the organization becomes. And I think the combat that the teams had engaged in in Vietnam, with not only with, you know, the regular operations, but with Mac V. Saug, it was just, was so intense. And I think coming back from that, it was, it was difficult. Now, I'm sure if you talk to the guys that were in Desert Storm, you know, they did, there's a couple, they did some cool, really cool things. You know, Panama, obviously,

Grenada. I think there was some guys, we lost some guys in that. Remember the parachute guys some drown in there but it wasn't consistent there was some guys going in bosnia kosovo there was some stuff of buddy mine and he had done a cool blown up a bridge over there and but it was so in between like there was you weren't it wasn't for sure like if i remember if if you got to go do a shipboarding and team three like you were a god like you were a combat god you know if you had anybody had fired their weapon it's like oh my god and so i think what do you do, you supplant that desire, because like you had asked about in the beginning, the desire to go do the job, and the job is to go kill the bad guys, right? That's it. That's the job.

If you condense everything down and distill it down to what our job is, is to go get rid of the enemy, that's the job, whether it's through, you know, developing your own intelligence package or reconnaissance, you know, it's assaults, it's CQB. I mean, all of it revolves around killing the enemy and when that doesn't take place I mean famously our you know that that CEO at team one I remember some guys another team had gone down to TJ and gotten in trouble

and which which happens for sure TJ is just a bizarre place man I had a girl die on me and Tj before too what? Yeah I had gone down there I'd gotten back from 18 Delta was at Team 1 and Td, you know, in Master of Arms.

We went down to T.J. for the day, my girlfriend and I, and we were walking down, Revolution, and I looked up, and there's this girl on the ground, another girl over top of her, like, begging for help. I literally had a face mask in my bag and come up, and I go, what's up? She's like, she just collapsed. She just collapsed. And I end up working this poor girl for 45 minutes on the ground and she ended up dying apparently at that time

they were serving methyl alcohol for shots and this girl had like a heart condition and it triggered the heart condition and she died and so like I think someone had gone down

gotten in trouble and I remember the team one CEO and made a comment like we'd gotten our ass chewed by the master chief and he came out and he's like, hey, you know, I understand you can't feed a tiger milk, so don't be dumb, right? That was his guidance.

And I think that was the mentality. You spend all day, every day, training, training, training, preparing for war, preparing for war. That has a profound psychological impact on the human mind, period. I don't care. And especially with the proficiency with which our organization does it, the unit. Again, to all my Green Beret brothers and Ranger brothers and Marine brothers, Marsok brothers, and Afsock, I love you all. All I know is my training. And so I'm going to always lean towards that being, you know, the most difficult.

And when you begin to analyze our training and how it breaks down, I mean, you had Commander Geary in this chair. You understood the way the sophistication. of how we address the psychological change of a young man's mind to becoming whatever it is you were before. I had one kid whose parents were in jail when he was a little kid. Another kid grew up gang bang, and another kid grew up from Arkansas to GED. Another kid had a master's in English lit, you know, the whole spectrum of people. They come in with this willingness to engage in the culture, and it's really a culture of death.

right i just learned about that term last november through my therapist it's like this is a culture of death and so you have to be willing to move through that eye through that gate right that psychological gate that everything that you had known before that time you almost have to like press pause or to delete it or to bury it in the recesses of your consciousness and then you pass through that gate and then everything out there is the the cultivation of that culture right to become comfortable in a culture of death. And so when you have that wheel spinning and there's no end result taking place, I think the wheels end up accelerating to a place where people lose their sense of purpose.

And I think that's what took place during those times. Now, not all guys. I mean, there's a guy in our platoon, double G, love them dearly. I mean, he had children at the time. He was a devout Christian. You know, he was the first Christian I ever saw in the teams who was openly practiced. There are not very many people that don't fall into that. Not at all.

And I remember. I would say it's 1% or less. I don't know. I think it's gotten bigger. I think it's grown. Maybe now. I'm just talking about when you and I were in. No, there was almost nothing.

Like, it was almost frowned upon. I mean, we would, because he wouldn't steam, he wouldn't party, and everything. And I remember I always loved Double G because he had the most interesting life. He had had all different kinds of jobs. He'd worked like a crab fisherman, oil rig. He was homeless for a while. And he was the most confident, quiet guy there was. I'd be like, come on, Double G, let's, you know, in Thailand.

Let's go to TQ2, man. And he'd be like, no, thanks, man. I'm going to stay home. I'm going to read my Bible. I'm like, why? You know, and we live next to each other in Guam, and I would, you know, why? Because I didn't have religion in my life. I didn't have that experience.

My parents were not religious people. We didn't go to church, you know, nothing. So I didn't have a base of faith in me whatsoever. And Double G was the first person I saw it. And he was competent. and he was you know he he he wasn't the team guy he was the frog man and i was just like whoa i was like that's intense but i i completely got wrapped up into the other thing because you know one of the things that really i think emerged out of that those times was you know

the intensity with which you can bring violence to call like that's the key right the whole context in the teams is the premise of being the violence of action. If you're, if you can be violent like that, like that's the standard of your reputation. And I remember, and I

mean, dude, I was not that kid, didn't know how to fight. I mean, there were twice in college. I got knocked out. One time I went to visit Chris Miller at Denison and I got beat up by a one-armed midget. You know, some kid that was like 5-5, whose arm was in a sling.

knock me out because I thought I was so tough and just knocked me and I fell down the hill broke my nose you know I was just not that guy wasn't tough I didn't know how to be tough I didn't know what tough was and so you get in you're surrounded by these dudes that are just animals man and they're they're all tough

and so it's like all right I gotta be tough I gotta I gotta get in a bar fights and I gotta drink a lot and I gotta train hard and I gotta you know I gotta steam all night and train hard all day and you are sucked into that. And I think there's a requirement about it that's a necessity. You want that.

You're trying to, but it's very difficult. The management of that, because how human beings respond to that type of imprinting is not always 100% predictable, especially when you have, there's a proponent of, there's a presence of sociopathology that's existent, right? They're, that's who they're recruiting. They want people that have these types of tendencies that can be programmed or manipulated into this space where violence is, it holds a premium in your personality. And we do that very well, very well.

And so I think without war going on, where else are you able to disseminate? You come off four, three straight weeks on a training trip. you're shooting guns all day you're kicking doors you're blowing stuff up and you come home and what do you do like oh i'm going to go to bible class or i'm going to just like go to the beach and relax now it's like let's go you know let's go down to fibber muggies or let's go down you know the mission beach or let's go down to the gaslight and let's just see how many fights we can get in right and that's the thing and that's tough you're having to manage this expectation, and that's, for me, I didn't, I didn't have the confidence

to pull back and be like, you know, I don't want to do that. I was like, I got to keep this facade up. I got to keep this insecure. I got to hide this insecurity that I'm, I'm not as tough as these other guys. And so I did my best to try and represent myself as that guy and really tried to push the envelope well Dave let's take a break when we come back we'll get into your first combat deployment sounds good summer's here and if you're anything like me you didn't spend the winter just sitting around you stayed sharp and kept moving and now it's time your gear caught up and that's why I want to introduce you to Roka I've been looking for eyewear that can handle any situation with performance and stop

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Yeah. But let's move into. your first combat deployment in the SEAL teams, first and only combat deployment in the seal teams before CIA contracting. Where do you go? When I got back from the deployment to Southeast Asia, was like ready for that to be done, ready to move in, got assigned to the next platoon immediately, a wonderful guy named Mike Higgs. Love this guy. He was an instructor of mine in Buds. And my LPO was another instructor of mine. Gillespie was his last name. And he was like, like, a titan of a guy. And I just was like, all right, this is going to be awesome.

This is going to be serious and focused and we're going to kill it. Not that I did. enjoy all the other stuff is just it kind of got away from us and and so now it's like all right reset and all of a sudden guess what i have to go get my paramedic recertification done and so instead of going back to new york what we did was we would go to san antonio um and we would work on the ambulances and in the er's there and i was kind of excited about it because i was a little bit more mature i really had learned a tremendous amount when you I mean firefighters and EMTs god bless them nobody understands the magnitude of what they endure on a regular basis they just they are on the front lines of human sorrow and I have so much respect for

them and what they do and it's just awesome so I went out there was going through the University of Texas San Antonio their emergency med program and it was Awesome. We were learning a ton. And then about midway through, I got a call from my LPO basically saying, hey, Rut, I'm sorry. I hate to inform you. But SEAL Team One has decided to let you go. And now you're an instructor over at the Naval Special Warfare Center. You're going to be an SQT instructor. And it's difficult to encapsulate the pain of that one. I mean, I know I say, I'm saying that a lot, but this one was the most devastating, for sure. This one was the one that almost broke my spirit completely. Because here I am on the precipice of going into this great platoon, great group guys. I'm not a new guy. I've got some time.

You know, I'm getting my legs. I'm feeling good. I've gone through some great courses. And I'm ready to go. And then all of a sudden, the command master chief at Team 1 was like, no, we're putting you at SQT. Because the Naval Special Warfare Center made out a call countrywide. We need two medics to become, because we're short medics, we need two medics who will be junior medics at SQT. And so for whatever reason, the same guy who kept my trident from me, shit can me and sent me over.

So I had a few months left in San Antonio, which devolved into a pretty dark place. And, you know, I had some good people with me. J.T. was awesome with me, and J.D. was there. And they really were supportive, and I got through it, but it was not good. And so when I transitioned and went over to SQT, I was in a, the, the, absolute wrong space headspace you should be in and when you become when you're given the opportunity to be an instructor um and i just felt so jaded i had the worst chip on my shoulder that i had in the entire time in the community and it was horrific and i just showed up and i think

it was april of that would have been 2000 april 2001 and did not care. I was living down in Mission Beach with my buddy Chris, who had been in my sister platoon at Team One, who, you know, one of the Savage brothers, and he and I were just going off in P.B. and Mission Beach, and he was really struggling. And that was one relationship I wish I had been better

to help him through what he was going through because he was going through something similar, that letdown of the experience and the over, you know, the saturation of partying. And it was just a horrible time. We were just, it was just not healthy in any way. And I'll never forget I had gone out. It was, I forget how long,

I'd been there like a month or so. And I'd gone out on a Sunday night, there was this little bar on Mission Beach. I forget what it was called, but I was a regular there. And I went there one Sunday night, He had to be in work next morning, five of a minute, it didn't matter, and got hammered. And there was the Ambach rugby team had come in their party, and that's where they, that was their local bar.

And they were a huge rugby team. Rugby was really big in San Diego. And sitting at the bar, and one of the guys were playing pool, and they, like, sprayed beer on his, like, spit beer on his buddy. And it went all over me. And so I, you know, turned around. I got my Navy watch cap and my. wife beater and my, you know, Dickie's pants and my Doc Martins and I think, you know, my one or two tattoos and think I'm a tough guy. And I turn around. I'm like, you know,

what's your problem, man, you know, total. The dude was amazing. He was like, I'm sorry. You know, didn't mean to you. Can I buy you a beer? And I'm like, no, man, you can't buy me a beer? And I was just like, hey, I'm really sorry. We're just having fun. And I was like, you know, F you, man. And I wouldn't let it go. And finally, like, before I know it, I'm surrounded, you know, two dudes both side, this guy, and this guy just tease off and just hits me so hard in the nose and my nose just goes off to the side. And then they just start, you know, just waylaying me. And now I'm like, all right, I'm in trouble now. And my nose started just pouring blood out. And so I was like, all right, how am I going to get out of this? So I just like flailed up

and I just exhaled and I exhaled around and I just covered them all with blood from my, nose. And they're all like, ah! And so I like bolted out the side door, ran the couple blacks back, like got out a bat and late on this stuff. And I'm like calling all my, you know, the instructors. And I knew a bunch of the team one guys were instructors. And I, hey, man, I just got jumped. I need you to come down. And they're like, hey, rat, go to sleep, man, sleep it off, bro. And like, hey, right. And they just kept. And so I went back and I remember I was hiding in the bushes and I was going to jump these guys when they got out and I ended up passing out in the bushes. And the next day, I went in and hung over, nose busted, bloodshot eyes,

and I'm supposed to teach. And my boss, Senior Chief Bruce Cunningham, got pissed and was really pissed and there'd been a couple other comments and complaints about my performance and and so he called me in and my warrant Mike Lou was in there and and he lit me up and was like that's it dude I'm I'm sending you to Cap'n's mess and I'm like whoa what do you mean he's like dude this is you don't deserve that trident and that was the whole thing that was the whole part, like, one of the hardest moments because I'm like, I knew I was messed up. I knew I was a problem and I was being called out for it and I couldn't, I couldn't admit it. And he was just like, you know, I don't, it's not up to you where you go. I don't care. You want to be in a platoon. I know

that, but this is where you're at. I need you here. I need you to do your damn job. So I'm going to send you a captain's mess. And I was like, I was like, can I just, explain to you. He's like, no. He's like, put it in writing and give it to me. And so I went back that night, I wrote out, you know, this long story of how all through my career, every time medical would send me off and disrupt the sequence or flow of my career for this medic thing. And I gave it to him and he called me and he goes, is this real? And I was like, yeah, you can, you can check. It is. And he goes, okay, I'm not going to send you to cash. I'm going to give you one more chance.

And if you don't change, you're out. I'm going to pull your trite. I'm going to kick you out of the Navy. You're gone. And I was like, all right. And I go, but, you know, what do you want me to do here? He's like, what do you mean? I go, I'm a one platoon wonder.

I don't know anything. I can't teach. These kids aren't going to respect me. I can't go in there. I don't have five platoons. I don't have this. I haven't ever been anywhere. I haven't done anything. I'm an elite at, you know, drinking, but I can't teach. I don't know how to teach. And I go, what do you want me to do? He goes, well, what do you, what can you do? What can you do? What do you think you're good at? And I was just like, I don't know. I can, I guess I can motivate people. And he goes, then that's all I want you to do. I want you to figure out how to teach medical. But I want you to figure out how to motivate because medical was the first week. And he goes, we'll teach you the rest.

If you do what we ask you to do, you're always on time, you're always early, you do everything we ask, we'll teach you how to become an instructor. And that moment changed my life forever because he believed in me and really kind of took me under his wing and had, you know, All these unbelievable guys at SQT, these guys that I revered, former Team One guys, and from other places, too. And Adano and Tush and all these guys, Carlos, and I learned how to teach. And that was one of the most rewarding things I've ever experienced. Because you have these essentially, and by this. Then they had consolidated STT into SQT. It was now a 34-week program.

You went to Buds. Then you went to SQT. And it was a pipeline. And they'd fixed all the nonsense. And so you came to this program and it was like, all right, you have the primed, you know, individual that's ready to do what you tell them to do. Like, hey, I want you to go run through that brick wall and they'll do it. right you mean you had sensation and buds like you're just like unleash me let me go but what is sqt designed it's designed to re-instill your own individual ability to think creatively to become a

commando and to advance your skill sets more but i didn't i didn't know how to do that i didn't know how to teach and i really leaned into these guys and watched i went to everyone's class I tried to be a part of everything they did. I saw how people taught. I'd have Bruce critique me. I'd have Matt critique me. I had Chris critique me. All these men would, I'd be like, what do I need to improve?

What do I need? Oh, tweak this and this and tweak this. And when you do this, and they taught me how to not only teach medical, but I, you know, land nav and I taught, you know, weapons and foreign weapons. and that taught explosives. I remember DJ's dad came out, me and this other instructor, Andy, which was, I love Andy, he was such a great guy. And he was in charge of demo, and I was like,

hey, can I learn with you? And Don came out and was like this demo god and taught us demo. And it was like this, it was a way of experiencing the teams I had never experienced before because there's a responsibility you have. with these these young men to get them ready to go into a platoon and like if you don't show up at a platoon I mean they don't play around like gone like you're out if you can't perform in a platoon and so that's your responsibility but I never felt that when I was going through I thought it was just another checkoff right get to the next thing but now it's like no we have to teach these

men how to be men and how to think and how to be legit commandos and it was awesome it was so amazing especially going out to nile and i remember just the impact and it got to a point where bruce put me in charge of all the down man sequences and all the ftx and all this so i got to create the down man scenarios i got to run them and it was amazing and we just started having a bunch of guys come through like really a lot of of the red wings guys came through some of the guys in extortion 17 came through all in all when i was there about 257 guys came through i went through i know we'll get there in a second that's after so it was that summer 9-11 happens i'm in a dive-suit course we finished dive-soup you know

going through the whole thing. That Friday, we went out to Nilean, and that Saturday we started Ayads. And I'll never forget, I used to give like these hoo-ya speeches before we'd start ayats, because it's a seminal component. If you learn to do this, you'll be okay. Like, this is the thing that distinguishes you. If you can shoot, move, and communicate, and you can do it well with your teammates, this is what establishes your credibility. And I remember this time, and I do a little, I get fired up, and I remember this time I was like, all right, gents, you know, look to your left, look to your right, look behind you, because there's a probability that some of these people will not be here in the future because we're going to war.

And that's when everything changed. It was palpable. The whole community changed. Everything changed. Everybody's attitude changed. It was serious now. and I really tried to lean into that and tried to experience that. And it was an amazing feeling.

Like it really, you felt, you felt what you had hoped you had feel by serving and then serving at that level. Now it was real. Like, now it was important. Not that it wasn't important. It just, it wasn't. It makes it more real. Makes it more real because people are going to go to war, right? I mean, what damn neck was on a ground.

by the end of October, you know, Team 3 was there not long after that. You had Avsock and, I mean, it was, it was on. They were going and I never forget, I ran into a guy I had known at Team 1 Christian and he was at a training command, but he was all kidded up on the amphib side. I was like, what do you all kidded up for? He's like, dude, I got in a Team 1 platoon that's going over next in the spring. And I was like, get out of here. And he's like, yeah, man, he goes, dude, there's a, they're doing an augment platoon

called the mobility platoon. And I was like, what's that? It's like, it'll be like a mobile platoon. They're going to dust off the DPVs, the different patrol vehicles. And they're going to use these things. And they need, I think it was like nine guys, or no, 13 spot. There were nine spots for this augment platoon. He goes, you ought to throw your name in there.

And they need a medic. And I was like, holy cow. So I immediately went to Bruce and Mike, and I begged them to put my name in the hat. I begged them. I said, listen, I've been crushing myself. You know, at that time, we were writing all the new curriculum. I mean, we were just working around. Like, I was there all the time, and I was like, could you please, please just give me this up?

Just put my name in the hat for this, please. I probably won't give it, but would you please let me try this? and they stood on it for a bit, and they put my name in the hat. And that went over to Will Gile. Master Chief Gile was the Command Master Chief of Speck War Center, and Captain Smithers was the captain. And 13 dudes put their name in for that. And we got to Master Chief.

He sat on it for a few days, and then it went to the captain, and then the captain sat on it and it was down to a couple dudes and they gave it to me and that's what did it and so I was able to in February of 02 depart

SQT go TDI over to SEAL Team 1 to augment this DPV platoon and that's when it began how did that feel like my first big win like I had gotten to a place where

my performance was indicative of something I could be proud of, and that warranted like an out-a-boy, like, here you go. You know, you did a good job, we're going to fight for you. And Bruce did, and Mike. They really fought for me. And it was incredible. And the next thing I know, I'm out at an island, and I'm staring at this Desert Patrol vehicle.

And mind you, I didn't even know how to. changed my oil. Like, I was this non-mechanical person as there's ever been. And now, like, the whole thing is mobility. And luckily, there was a guy, Larry, who was our LPO, who was fantastic and just amazing. And then I was in some guys I had gone through training with, some team one guys that were phenomenal. Monty, Bill, you know. So this is a, this is a mixed match, mixed bag and nuts, platoon that they piece together.

Yeah, podge, podge, yep, of guys. We had some younger guys. Did anybody have any combat experience? No, no, not at all. Yeah. So how, I mean, so if you guys were training, I mean, how did they come up with the curriculum for a training pipeline, and nobody has any experience? there was a master chief who had been in charge of SQT who had actually been in the platoon,

the Damneck platoon, when they built these things for the first desert storm. Because those vehicles were the first vehicles into Kuwait. And so they had gotten all this success and there's some photos of them back then. So they brought these things out of mothballs and they got these guys. Well, they put them together and they sent those guys over. and they actually went to Afghanistan for a little bit with the vehicles and then we I went over first

I volunteered to go over first at Advon went into where were we? We were in Kuwait and and that's when I saw the first guys that they were coming back and listening to what they were going through

and there was a guy that had been on a pep billet I think with the Aussies or with the Brits and he had there was it was when Mike Spann had gotten killed the ground branch guy had been killed at this prison

and then there was this prison uprising they killed him and they set in I forget it was either Aussie but there was a seal in there who ended up dropping bombs danger close on the roof and he won like their distinguished Knights Cross or something like

that it was a team guy for i'm so upset i've forgotten his name right now but i'm a little little fatigue but but he i met him and like i was like oh my god like you could just see it on him like he had just been to combat and i was like whoa this is intense and so in kuwait we trained for about 70 days they came back for half that taught us train us boned us up got us dialed in and we're like all right we're out of here you guys got a month left And as it turned out, it was like for every hour we drove out in the desert, it was like eight hours wrenching. And it was just, I mean, it was the most ultimate cross course that you could ever receive on a vehicle. I remember Larry who had been in boats guys over at Damnick and was just like, here's a carburetor, take this apart and put it back together.

And I'm like, I don't know. He's like, figure it out. And so we just, Ryan, we came up with SOPs and maneuvering and driving. And I love driving. I mean, that was my thing. I love driving that vehicle. It was just, you know, I mean, you're going 90 miles an hour at night, nods on, 50 cow above.

It was just like, you're like, okay, this is, this is frogman stuff. This is cool. And then we got the call. in the NMA, we left and we flew into Bogram, the NMA. How did it feel when you landed in Bogram? Awesome. You know, the C-17 corkscrew all the way down, like, everybody's on nods, you know, vehicles out, everybody's efficient, moving great.

It's like, oh, man, this is it. Like, this is cool. You're expecting, like, they're going to overrun the gates because you'd heard. about Torbora, you'd heard about Roberts Ridge, you'd heard, and then for me, the hardest one was Matt Bouchois. You know, Matt got blown up at Tarnak Farms where Osama bin Laden was when he was at Damnik and left kids and a wife and he was one of the nicest guys when I was a new guy at Team One and training cell who would actually spend some time with me. And that was the first palpable sensation of death that kind of got me.

And so it provoked a pretty substantial fear of getting blown up. Because when we landed at that time, there was a rough estimate of about 25 million landmines in Afghanistan. And we were driving around in those DPVs, which were essentially sand racers with a little bit stronger transmission. and some racing components. And, you know, Slick, the thing was like 2,800,000. And then you'd put almost 2,000 pounds of gear on it. And, you know, it was not all four-wheel drive. And so when we got there, you know, there was two paved roads in all of Afghanistan.

And then just everything was off-roading. And we were in these vehicles that were great at off-roading. So, yeah, that was. It was the first, you know, the first week, two were like, all right, I think all of us, me included, I was kind of the Intel rep. And it's like I was expecting a stack of folders of targets, right? Here's all your HVTs. Here, pick whichever one. Go get this guy. Go get the Taliban. Go get Al-Qaeda. And everybody was still just, you know, you could taste revenge in your mouth because of 9-11. It was still in you. You still had it.

And now, you know, there'd been some team guys that had gotten hit. And it was like, all right, let's get after it. But it wasn't like that. It seemed unorganized, you know, going into the talk. Because it wasn't, it wasn't, what I later understood, you know, The agency was running the war, and J-Soc was doing the heavy lifting, and they weren't quite sure how to employ us outside of that. And so it kind of felt like, all right, well, what do we do? Where do we go?

I remember we did this shakeout patrol vehicles up across the valley and to the other side of Bogram, and we'd go up and we'd get in this building. And we actually, like, got stuck on this little finger. And, you know, they don't maneuver well. They don't have great turning. And I remember we're in the rear vehicle. And I forget who was in the turret, but someone's like, you know, look left, look like. And right next to me, there was like three or four Afghans with AKs just looking at me.

And it was that hate, you know, that first time you look, someone looks at you with hate and you know, that dude hates me. If that dude could shoot me right now, he would shoot me in my face, no problem. And I was like, we're literally sitting ducks in these vehicles, we can't maneuver. I was like, can you get a shot and you can't even turn to 50 Cal, right? And it's just like, well, this is different. This is not what I had in my mind. And I think it was strange because I wasn't, there was no clear direction. There was no clear answers.

there was no clear you guys go do this go do this and so we kind of had to figure it out i remember it was the s f guys there was a the reserve unit from i think carolina i think it was i forget what 19th group or something i forget what their her unit name was but i ran into these guys and they were amazing they had jingle trucks that they were using they had motorcycles they were doing low-pro stuff and they were they were they had figured it kind out because there was i guess one or two of those guys that had actually been in afghanistan as young green berets during the russia afghan war and they had trained the muajadine fighters to fight against the russian so these guys knew like a bunch of skill sets that we didn't know like we were still running off

kind of SOPs from Desert Storm and they were phenomenal. They were great to work with. They were very informative. One guy gave me this book called The Bear Trap, which was the history of the Russian-Afghan War and how devastating it was for the Russians because, I mean, you know, fight the Afghans in their backyard is tough. It's hard. They're really tenacious.

I mean, Afghanistan's where empires go to die. And I was like, this is a lot different than what I thought it would be. That would just be dominating. And it was almost like they wanted us out of Bogram. And so after, I think it was about a month, we did a couple patrols and stuff, but nothing substantial. They moved us down to Kandahar. And that's where things kind of shifted.

It was like kind of end of June, we moved down to Kandahar. And at that time, it was only SF, only soft units, foreign and us. And then there was like a couple RNA units. And then the CBs and then like Army Corps engineers that were, I mean, there was no indoor showers. There was no indoor chow hall. I mean, it was still pretty raw. And I was like, all right, this is a place will be good because the terrain was a lot better. It was less mountainous.

It was more wide open. So I was like, this is where we'll be able to employ the vehicle. because the other seal platoon that was in with us, they didn't have vehicles. Like, we entered the country. We had no vehicles. And so how are you going to run missions when you don't have any vehicles? And that was another thing that I was just like, wait a minute, how do we not have just, like, basic humvees? And we actually ended up borrowing some troop carriers from the Canadian soft, the Kansoft guys.

And so we started to do some missions at that time. What was the first mission? First big one was a joint mission to go in the De Raou River Valley. We were going to snatch a couple senior Talban guys because that's where all the poppy production and that's kind of where they were hiding out. That was the estimation. That's what the intel we got. And we would drive in big joint op, SF, agency, us.

I think we had five vehicles, one agency vehicles and six, you know, SF vehicle. like huge, huge joint op. And they were, we had put in a reconnaissance team. There was the little village where they thought the guys were. And then what we thought is that when the op started, they would flee into this valley because we had put a recon team up here. And they were, they would run in here and hide. And then we would just go pursue them and get them there if we didn't get them there.

And so we drove from Candahar out to the DeRoe River Valley. and it was like it took, I mean, I think we drove for like three straight days, like just constant driving, like, you know, and at night you're crawling and you get into that big accordion and I remember we were behind. I was always rear security, so I ate more dust than that. I think I still got some Afghan ship flake in my ears somewhere from that one, right? And we, I remember us getting, setting up, night was coming, then each hour, and I'll never forget we were going in and they had launched first because they were

going to stage and hit the compound and then we were going to drag through if there was anybody leaving and we hit and there was a vehicle coming out after H. Hour had gone and we didn't have an interpreter we didn't have

it was just a bunch of cowboys right and I remember we stopped the vehicle everybody ex-filled stuff and Joe Burns God bless him man and stopped and, like, opened, fired across, you know, the thing. And we're like, and everybody's like, is he, like, is someone shooting or what are he doing? And someone was like, why did you shoot?

And he's like, that's my interpretation to stop the, you know, the goddamn vehicle, you know. He's like, get out, get out. And we wrapped those dudes up and zip tied them and put them in the back and kept going. and SF team hit that, compound, took a couple of dies. And it was crazy because that was the first official story that CNN had come out with Christiana Atenpore saying that we assaulted a wedding, that we took down a wedding. That was the first time that that had happened.

You know, and it was like we were just going after innocent Afghans in a wedding, you know. And so we, went through they did their thing and we went to go retrieve the guys on the recon and and that was you know we got them down they were they were pretty jacked up because the heat and they were running out of water and I remember that was an interesting experience because it's like we'd been up for so many days you know it's funny I was with Dan Luna and Monty and they we got to the the place where the valley, and they're like, all right, you three go out there and clear up

the valley. You know, in those valleys, it's just massive and take the EOD guy with you. You know, and it's like, there's so many places that you could get shot and you're just, you're delirious because you've been up for four straight days, maybe you got in a couple hours of sleep or, and we're walking. And I remember with Dan, God bless him, man, I started like hallucinating a little bit and I remember seeing like a pink bunny rabbit in like a little little hole in the side. I'm like, I mean, do you see that bunny rabbit?

He's like, dude, don't say that. You know, he's like, and we're sitting there and they're like, it's clear. There's nobody back here. And I remember this. All of a sudden, we look up right across about 100 meters up on this little plateau, this Afghan guy comes out and he's got a donkey and he's like barking. He's like, you know, and we can't understand it. I'm, so I jump up and I'm like, freeze, don't move.

And he backs away from the ledge and I go hauling up. And I get up and I'm like holding on him. I'm like, don't fucking move. Get on the ground. Get on the ground. And he can't understand a lick of what I'm saying. And he's just backing away. And like I wasn't sure what it was in the dokey or feet.

You know, I didn't seem armed. And I'm just like, you know, I go, boom. And I'm like, get on the ground. Like fire. Next thing, another dude starts fire. from, I'm like, ceasefire, see, fire, see, you know, I'm like, I didn't, I didn't think, I was like, okay, I'll just, like, scare him, and the dumbest thing I could ever done. And the dude just turn, splits and just, like, goes up the mountain like a billy goat.

And I remember one of our chiefs was just screaming, detain him, detain him. And so, Monty came up, and we tried, and, like, we couldn't. Like, he was, it was, like, a goat, like a billy goat, and he just disappeared. And we finally got the guys back and we're like, well, what do we do now? They're like, let's get out of here. And so we drove out and it just, it kept just spiraling. Like, it didn't make sense. We ended up, we had to drive all the way back.

We drove through this one village where there was like men, 18 to 45 wearing black turbans. And they essentially, like, we kind of got in a log jam. And I remember Double G was in a. a turret and this Afghan guy was like, you know, like pull off your sunglasses and double-g drops him and goes like this and he points to his AK and he's like, get out of here. Essentially like, get out or we're going to. And I was like, why aren't we like grabbing these guys detain them, you know, figuring out how to get an interpreter out there, figuring what's out, what's up?

Because it was obviously there were no women around, no children around, no nothing, but nothing happened. Like, nobody made that call. We're like, all right, let's just get back to base. And one of the things, the guys that had really given me a ton of insight were the Aussies, because they had these lorries that they could do long-range reconnaissance in it. And I remember up in Bogram, they would come in and they looked like they had just gotten into it. And I finally went up. I'm like, hey, you know, what do you guys, are you getting into it? And they're like, yeah, every time we go out, we get into it. I'm like, well, how does it work? And they're like, man, they sent us out to, you know, East Bump, whatever, over here.

What we do is we figure out where to routes, the passage routes, through the valleys are. We drop little O.P. teams. And we watch for a week. We see where they're all kind of congregate and meet up. And then we just go drive and park our cars right in the middle of their villages and wait for someone to shoot at us. And then we just get in firefights. And so they were getting into all the time. I'm like, well, let's do that.

you know we let's just go camp out and see if someone picks a fight with us and so we leave there and on the way out there's this you know car or this this this moped next to us and and i'm like that dude because an s f guy had had a like you know when the kids come out you're like oh get the kids you give them skittles and stuff well one i think an oda team had done that well a kid had dropped the grenade and the navigator's seat and like killed this guy and so i had this you know, I'd rigged up a gun on my steering column and, you know, pointing my gun at kids who were picking up rocks because they'd throw rocks out of sometimes.

And I'm like, all right, someone shoot that guy. And there was a master chief, crampton from Team One. It was like, no, right, no one's going to shoot him. It's just a couple of kids on them. I'm like, all right, can I run them over? And he's like, no, you're not running. And I'm like, they're gaining intel on us. Let's wrap.

And I said, no, just let's go. And he was right the whole time. When he was to make this turn and there's this little hooch with this dish gun on it, this massive anti-aircraft gun, and we turn and these guys are the columns going down this tree line towards this little hooch. Well, they run and dude gets in the hooch and starts getting on the dish gun. So I think this guy's going to turn and train and just light up the whole thing. So I haul ass out into this agricultural field to get an angle with R50 caps.

and this other guy comes screaming, going, like, don't go, don't go, don't go. And he's like, and, actually, he's like, stop the vehicle right now, right? So I stopped the vehicle, and I had driven us into a minefield. And I'm looking at him. He's looking at me, and he's like, do not move the vehicle. We're going to get somebody out of a car. They're going to back you up along your tracks. So we get out and we come on.

We go over the hill. We come into this 30-foot crater of a Russian anti-tank mine. We make our EOD walk for two hours on this road, not even a road, but it packed the thing because we thought the whole thing was mine. And end up getting back to Kandahar. And so that was the first mission. And I was like, holy cow, like, this is what it's going to be every time. I was like, all right, this is going to be intense, this is going to be kind of cool, but it didn't turn out that way. They ended up giving us a little sliver of area that we could exploit down by Spin Bulldog, where you've been before,

because we had gotten some information that there was a safe house there, because that's where all the weapons were coming across from Quetta, where Mool Omar had his tribe, right, that they were. And so all the stuff was coming across there. And then right below that was the desert of death. So we're like, all right, we've got these DPVs. Let's go down. Let's exploit that area. Let's go set up.

We put in a couple missions to go set up an urban reconnaissance that got shut down. We did a couple, like a couple ops where we drove in there. ROIC got sick or something or wasn't, you know, deal in. with the heat or whatever it was, and so we had to cancel those and come back early. But that's all that was going on. There was nothing.

And we couldn't understand because we kept putting in for op orders and kept saying, hey, let us do this. And it just wasn't going away we thought it was going to go. Here we are in Afghanistan.

We kind of know we're the enemy. I mean, we did a three-day recon one time and put eyes. on this like T-section Valley and we'd seen her training we'd seen like I'd seen on Bino's like a ceremony of people getting like these black turbans

like it was definitely a Talban village unbelievable and that was actually a pivotal moment for me because I remember on our third night and me and Larry would take the late night shift everybody was running out of water I mean I took in 22 quarts of water all the other guys had like 20 they were running out of water first thing the third day we weren't

getting picked up till that night so i'm like what happens if we run out of water and then there's a sandstorm or where are we going to go and and so i remember that what really started like what do we do like how do we solve this and and that night that last night was the first night i'd ever prayed and that was the first time i mean you you've been out there you out in the middle of nowhere in Afghanistan, there's no lights, tons of stars. And it's surreal. Like, you're like, I'm around the other side of the world in this place where this culture, you know, are basically, you know, trapped in the 15th century in tribalism. But yet they were able to participate and orchestrate the most significant attack in U.S. history. And we're out here hunting them down. And we're out here,

hunting them down. It just was surreal to me, and we were in this predicament, and it was the first time I was like, you know, I felt kind of compelled to ask God. I was like, hey, can you, if you're there, can you help? Can you get us out of us? And that next night came in, got picked up, and we dropped another OP team off, but a goat herder had walked into the one, the O.P. team that was across the way from us. And they had zip tied the guy and sat on them for a while and then cut them loose when they got loose.

Well, that guy went right down. So when our other OP that was at the end of the T section where they could watch where the training was, they got compromised immediately. So we were getting spun up to go out, get in, but the helipot pilots, the TF 160 guys are the greatest pilots, hands down. I mean, these men are unbelievable in what they do, their courage, their ability to fly those things. they're absolutely the best of the best. And they went in, grab those guys and got out and nothing happened. But immediately we put in or after action

then a follow-on op order, we want to just drive into that village and let's just light them up. Let's go. Let's take down that whole compound complex and it got shut down. And nothing came from it. And so at that point,

I was just like, you know, what are we doing? why are we here? I remember right around then there was this thing called the loyal the loyal jurga and they brought all of the warlords from all the different regions

they shut all operations down and they got this thing to install Karzai as the president and like so that just shut operations for I don't even know it seemed like a couple weeks maybe and that was it and I was just like all right

this is going to be it and then everything changed on on August 18th and 19th What happened on August 18th and 19th? We had started a relationship with the Kansoft guys

and they were wonderful those guys are the most professional guys they're amazing they actually had this great software that was our pilots were using that could map the earth because you know back then the mapping systems of what was there i mean we were rolling off 30-year-old russian maps and stuff i mean it was it was poor and so they were really beneficial well they reached out about a few days prior and like hey

let's do a join-op we got an hvt because they were a tier one unit we've got an hvt we're going to go you guys be our cordon force right you you know come in you'll get the perimeter of the compound for squirters and let's roll. And so we were like, absolutely awesome tier one unit. They probably have great intel because one of the things we were realizing is that the sharing of intelligence was not flowing the way I had imagined that I was told. My first platoon, I was the intel rep, this group I was the Intel guy, and nothing that I had ever been taught was happening, right?

There was no Intel shop that you can go in and people would be like, this is going on, this is going on, this is going on. And so we rehearsed and got ready, get out plan, and the idea was that we would fly in 47s and the main unit would hit, assault the compound with JTF2. They'd have a couple team guys assistance in the internal.

Our task unit commander would be in there with them. and then we'd have four teams of four on the corners of this house. And so I got in with one of those teams. So we launched, we're going in, we come down. So it's compounds here, right? Over here was these ag fields, ag fields all around it, some kind of trees along a pathway, more compound. And so we landed here and we got off,

and our job was to get to this corner, right, of the compound. and then there'd be one here, one here, and then one on the far side. And I remember this time I, it was, like, my heart was pumping, because this was a takedown. It was a snatch, and it's like, all right, this is Frogman stuff. This is cool. And I was the only medic in the external team of all these four teams. And so that's a lot of pressure, right?

It's like, all right, you're the guy. And now there were medics inside, but outside. And I remember getting off the thing, patrolling a little bit to the corner, and I heard cracks. And it was gunfire. And I jumped down in a prone, like, like you're taught, gunfire and snaps and you jump. And I remember I'm kind of trying to figure out my night vision, my helmet and my back my bed bag and all this stuff and I'm trying to look and and I remember god bless him man eric schellenberger who's now passed um leans over and he goes he goes rut

what are you doing like dude you didn't hear those gunshots he goes bro and he'd been in combat before he'd been a marine prior to and he's like that was like 50 feet over our head They weren't even in our direction. And I was like, oh, okay. So I got up and I'm like, okay. And I'm like, all right, go. Now I'm like going and my one nod is fogging up. And I, and I'm like, all right, relax, calm down, like, do your job, hold your corner.

And we had the external commander, Mike, amazing guy, great officer, sitting there. then Heath was our com guy, and then it was me, Shelley, Heath, and Mike. And he's running the X-Roe. Meanwhile, there are these heloes over top, and they're calling in, hey, we've got squirters. They got out of the building. And you can hear internal, they're clearing, clear, clear, doing the whole thing. And we're getting word that one of the heloes, where we were, here's a compound, we're on this corner, corner, and this helo's hovering here.

and has this he says I've got a couple guys pinned down out here you know get out here you know because he's sitting there lawyer and burning fuel and he's calling and they're not done with the total securing of the main compound and so this guy's like hey man like you can hear him just like hovering in this area and it's loud as how you could still kind of communicate over here. We're probably, I want to say, 200 maybe meters away, maybe 150, 175. And finally, they get a call from inside, hey, we're secure. And then Mike's like, well, we're going to go grab these guys. So we consolidated the three groups. They had a little powwow, hey, how are we going to do this? Because he was in ag fields, right? Like huge, not a huge, but six, seven foot

ag that it was in and you know the ag fields are rutted and this guy's hanging over he's like hey get out here i'm you know a fuel i need to get off station and i feel vulnerable and so it's decided that we're going to basically get online and we're going to walk through the target old school you know basic tactics and approach and especially in the ag fields right so It was this team was on this four, then it was R4, and it was, I'm pretty sure it was, it was, I want to say it was Heath, no, Mike, Heath, Shelly, me, then it was Larry, John, Beltran, Monty, and Darren. and so we started walking and that was scary because you know you're walking in the guys

the guy you heard over the radio I've got a guy you don't know if he's got a weapon got grenades got anything and you're walking right into him I mean can you see no what's the terrain like I mean it's it's ag fields that are rutted so for ag for irrigation so you're kind of stumbling and it's you know the first

section was kind of open and then you hit the stuff that's head high and so you're trying to adjust the depth to see through the fields and where the helo and then then the helo you get so close now you can't hear anything you couldn't hear comms between each other it had just overwhelmed and i remember heath's comms kind of had gone down so i had stepped in to help with the comms to the helo and he's relaying information this is where they are they're right underneath my road to wash come over here right now, and I'm trying to relate. You can't really hear anything, and it's just chaos. But we're going.

Like, we're going to go, this is the mission. If these were the squirters, the guys, and they're pinned down, that's the mission. So we're going, we're going, and we get into it, and we kind of clear out, and they're kind of chopped down. Now, there's a little clearance, but then there's another thing where you can't see. And I, all of a sudden, I'm walking, and I step on something. And it did not feel small. It was big. And immediately, I just one nod.

I looked down, I draw down, and I just start mule kicking, whatever was underneath me, as hard as I could. And I just, and it's a dude. And now I'm like, I'm trying to sweep for gun, helicopters over. I start calling to Shelly Because you're on this walk forward I'm here I step on it I kind of turn to here

And I'm kicking it And I'm going Shelly Shelly And then Shelly comes over And I'm like Hey hold And I'm like And then I'm trying to pass over the radio I got someone I got someone

And obviously you can't hear anything Because the heel is right over us And so I'm sitting there and I'm just waiting for the dude to, you know, pull a grenade and just let that thing go. And I'm like, hey, you got him, you got him. And we were trying to work something out. And then as soon as we're here, we're on front, I turned here, I look up and I see muzzle flash right in front of us. And in that moment, I'm like, all right. the other guy is out there, he's opening up.

So I immediately call contact front, scream it, contact front, drop down, getting a prone, engage, you know, go through Mag, Shelly engages, I think a couple other guys down the line engaged. I couldn't see or hear Larry, Tommy, Monty, or Darren. I couldn't see them because, the scrub or what was ever and I go in I get out a grenade and I'm prepping a grenade and I look at shell and I go should I throw it? Should I throw it? He's like

no and I'm like all right and then all of a sudden ceasefire comes out like ceasefire ceasefire so it goes out meanwhile the helicopter had moved off behind us so there's a second of like what just happened what went down

and I remember immediately that's when you heard man down and there was a man down call and I'm the only medic and I'm not I don't know where the man down is I don't know where it is so I'm trying to get comms but the rotor is still behind us so you can't hear on comms still and so what I do is I immediately start going down this line, and I made it probably down to Heath and the other guys, and I'm like,

is there a man down? They're like, there's nobody injured down here. There's nobody. So I was like, it's got to be the other side. So I came back, and I was like, all right, I'm going to go check the helo. So I made a diagonal, and I went back, and I came through with the Iron Cross to give a bona and there's dudes in a half moon out and it was the air crew and I came out and I said do you have the down man and you know how it's still spinning and you're screaming no we don't know where he is

we don't know where he is and so I'm like all right so then I turn I went back up and this time I got back up to Heath but then I heard I could hear now something and these guys were calling out so I walked forward off to here and And Larry had been shot, Tommy had been shot, Monty had been shot, and Darren had was fine. Monty had taken around in his magwell right here. So he was holding his gun. It hit his magwell. And had his magwell not been there, his plate stopped, it would have gone right through his stomach into a spine.

Probably would have bled out right there. Tommy took around in his upper leg through and through and through and through, femur fracture, femoral artery tear was in a lot of pain. And Larry had taken around right through the front part of his shin and blown out the back of his calf. And so I'm like, meanwhile, I was like, we need more guys. we need more guys so more guys got up we I got Larry put him on my shoulder and I hopped him over got him on the helo because the helo was then the plan was the helo's on station would then fly us right on the other side of the compound kind of up the hill and we would have actual medics on a medevac birds on station right with and I remember there I thought there was going to be a dock

on like a trauma dock on and a medic and a army medic and so i got larry to the thing came back out and it would it had taken i think there was like six dudes trying to carry tommy john beltrane because he's big dude right and just manhand him all kit and all so we got on the helo and i and i looked around i was like all right i got to get these guys to the heel because we got to get them out of here because Tommy was not good. Like he was already struggling.

And I was like, you guys good? Can I go? And they're like, yep, go for it. We're good. So I jumped on the helo, all my shit, got on and just the helo lift off and I'm trying to triage the guys.

And there was a sniper weapon that a guy had hot on there. There was calm shit hanging down. So it was like a chaos. And I'm trying, and I got, Larry had gotten a tourniquet on himself. And so I just went over, checked tourniquet, check bleeding, check his breathing. Like, I'm good. Then I went over and Tommy had gotten a tourniquet on, but it wasn't good.

It wasn't high enough. So I put another one on, got it deep as high as I could, strap that down. And I'm like, how are you doing? He's like, I'm in a lot of pain. It's not good. And I was like, are you with it? He's like, it's not good. So I was like, all right, how much blood is he lost?

He's definitely got a femur hit, right, if a more will bleed. So before I knew it, we set down. Like, we were like, up and then down. And I look out in about 35 meters, 40 meters away was the 47 spinning. And I'm waiting for a team of guys to come over with stretchers, and we'd get the guys on, and we'd all, we'd ferry him over. And so one dude runs out and has got a stretcher, and I'm like, oh, shit. So, and then another, it was an aircrew guy, and then I didn't know he was a medic, but it was a medic.

They came over, they put Tommy on the stretcher. I got Larry, and we hopped over, like, I carried him over. We got him in the back, and I'm looking around waiting for this team to come out. And there was nobody. It was just us. And so I'm like, oh, shit. And so now I'm tired. I'm exhausted.

I'm feeling overwhelmed for sure. And I was like, all right, what do I do next? And I was like, all right, what do I do? You know, go through it, T-T-C, tactical combat casualty care. What do I do? Is bleeding secure? Is there airway secure, right? Or is there circulation?

You know, are they good? and I was like barking orders but was not making a lot of sense. Finally, the crew chief grabs me and shakes me. And he's like, dude, I'm like, and meanwhile, rotor's going. You can't hear anything. He's like, dude, are you all right? And I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, that's a medic.

He's on your team. Use him. And then I was like, okay. So then I went over to him. I told him, this is what we got. This is what I've seen. I haven't done great body sweeps. I'm not sure if there's other wounds that they don't know.

I haven't gone under your kit yet. He's like, okay. So he starts. And I go, and I go up to the front of the thing, and I'm looking for, I thought there'd be like four big med bags, like trauma bags. There was nothing. I come back and I go, where are the bags? He goes, this is it. And where's yours?

And I go, it's right here. He goes, you do him, right, Larry, and I'll do him. And I was like, okay. So I went out and I checked his tourniquet, made sure he was good, made sure he was with it. He was doing good. And so I wanted to elevate and isolate. So his Tibby and Fibia, which was shattered, didn't just start cutting into that his artery. guy that got shot right here in the hair.

Right here, yeah, Larry. And that his, like, pepateal artery didn't get nicked or whatever. Like, I had to, so I got a water box, I bandaged the back of his calf, put it on that, elevated it, and made him comfortable. And I said, are you good? And I was like, yeah. So then I did full sweeps. He's like, I'm not hit anywhere else.

I'm good, everything. And I'm like, okay. So then by that time, I had gone over, and this dude, I'd already, he was prepping a line. He'd done the sweeps. He's like, he doesn't have any more shots. He's lost a lot of blood. His pupils aren't good. He's probably going into hypolemic shock.

And at that moment, I realized we're 45 minutes away from Kandahar. And I was like, holy fuck, Tommy's going to die. John's going to die. And that was the hardest minute right there. I was like, oh, my God, what am I doing? is this are we going and the guy's like

hey dude just do what I tell you to do I was like okay and so helped him get the IV got the IV just amazing medic unbelievable dude

like he was just on the point the whole thing was amazing and so then I got John situated comfortable I was like you good

and he's like yeah I'm in a lot of pain but you could tell he was his leg at that point was probably this big. I mean, he was definitely in hypervillemic shock. It's hard to see in the lights on the thing, but it just did not look good.

And so the guy was like, he's like, give me something for pain, please give me. And I was like, hey, man, what do you want to do? He's in a lot of pain, really hurting. He's like, I'm nervous because he's in hyperlemic shock. If I give him a lollipop, you know, morphine or fentanyl, a lollipop, it could put them into respiratory distress. And I'm not sure I want to do that.

And so we took off and we started going, and I'm just kind of lying with John and just trying to be like, you're good, you're going to make it, we've got you, we got an IV, you're good, we're going to get you back, we're almost there. And you could just see him who's going in and out. And I'm like, here it comes. Like, this is the moment where this guy's, my mind. friend is going to die in my arms and thinking, you know, I didn't think back to, you know, what Bud Miller had said, but now I'm in this moment. And he, we gave, we ended up giving

him a lollipop that really helped him, right? It slowed his heart rate down, but it didn't, it slowed the blood pumping down. And so it was like, then we started packing his wound. He was pack and like you did this medic again i can't john beltrane would have died that day if it had not been for this guy for sure and it was just it was the maybe he was the angel that needed to be there for me or whatever it was but that that dude was amazing so we got back and by the time we got back to we landed on in cana hard and there was a full medical team waiting they came running out. They grabbed them both. I mean, they were amazing. I mean, it was a whole thing and immediately got them in, got them into, you know, there's a surgeon there, and it was

unbelievable. And it was like, okay, meanwhile, I have no idea what's going back on the target, what's happening, no nothing. All I know is we've got it back. They're not going to die unless, you know, they die in surgery. And certainly it was a possibility for John. and he it was they were everybody was amazing like it everything just it was operating it was like oh wow this is really cool and immediately i went into a debrief and some said i forget what chief i sat down with but immediately tell me the story top bottom one happened so i gave him the debrief and they're like all right dude you're done go back to the hooch and just chill we'll come get you in a minute if we need you and so I didn't want to leave but they're like

get out go get out of here we got it these guys just need their health their care and I was like okay so I got my shit and I went back and I remember I got a cigarette and I was sitting just outside just trying to process what had just happened and I was just like thank God they're not dead I just thank God they didn't die and just smoking a cigarette. Well, sun was coming up, and immediately Humvees came in. It was guys from the raid, the other group, and Darren came out, and I was sitting there and gave him a cigarette and we're having a cigarette,

and he goes, hey, did you hear what happened? And I said, no, what happened? And he said, the doc dug 556 out of John's leg and Larry's leg. I'm like, what? He's like, yeah, he dug 556 frag out of his leg. And in that moment, uh my life changed for a long long time because immediately i had the sensation that i was the guy who had shot them shit how did you know i just felt it

But I just felt it. When I had spun around to contact, maybe I spun too much. And because what it ended up happening was, and this, I got this from Darren because Darren had taken shots at a squirder. And I'm like, wait a minute, what do you mean, you shot? It's like, yeah, he's like, I took some shots at a guy that was running away. the other guy and i'm like well and and so as we talked it out it immediately kind of flushed out in my mind where as we were walking through when i stopped with with shelley on the guy they kept

advancing. And what I think happened is they, they began advancing a little on an angle. And so Darren got out to here, saw a guy running away here, maybe the other guy that they had pinned down because the helicopter had moved off-site. And Darren took a couple shots at this guy. And I think that's what I saw. And so when I dropped into the prone, instead of being straight eye line, I think I was on an angle in my round hit Larry's leg, hit Tommy's, hit Larry's shin, hit Tommy's leg, and hit Monty in the Magwell. Holy shit.

Yeah. Now, not. of that was said nobody came to me over the next few weeks um nothing happened there was an investigation that took place but nobody like pulled me off the sudden said hey rut and we think this is what happened nothing we kind of had to stand down for a few days i think we did one thing after that, but we ended up leaving Kandahar on September 10th of 2002. And I remember both feeling relieved that we were leaving, but also an incredible weight that eventually that was all going to come out.

in some way I didn't know how or why or anything and that I was going to have to face what that meant for me in my reputation but even more so that you know the idea that maybe I had shot my own guys and what I was going to have to live with with that. So, when we landed in Bahrain, those few weeks was really difficult. I was completely isolated. I truly tried to distract myself, obviously, with a lot of booze, you know, almost got in some trouble with Tage, and just tried to run from it. and meanwhile people are like hey man what happened out there you know do you save those guys lies tell me the story and all that and i was like nothing happened and didn't want to say it didn't want to talk about it and then read a point home and i'll never forget read a point home just shame just a level of shame that was just like a cloud that just followed me everywhere i was

going and we got in the middle of night north island you know team one come out the door it's you know one two in a morning one 12 30 one two in morning you know there's dudes with their wives and their kids and everybody takes off and there's nobody there for me I didn't have any place to say I didn't have anywhere going then a buddy might have been like hey dude I'm going to go take off with my friends you can go stay at my pad if you want it was Andy And so I went down into IB, and he was, you know, I think it was like 234 crawls, crawl steps away from the shithole bar down in IB. And so got down there and went in that bar and drank myself into oblivion.

And then a day or two later, got on a plane and was in South Florida for leave, post-deployment leave. Shad Dave Yeah Did it ever come out officially They did another investigation When I'd gotten back And I remember

Because they had wanted me to do the brief In medical Like we had another I got back in November And class started And it might have been your class or it was a class right after that and and uh i remember telling the story almost like i was like it was almost like a confession of my

ineptitude it was a confession of my um of my unworthiness you know and that somehow i was in this it was like my penance almost it was there was no pride in it there was no excitement in it there was no i wasn't i wasn't i felt ashamed completely and then i think it was either before or after christmas uh i had heard from mike lew that there was an investigation that had come down and it had been determined it was inconclusive uh how they were shot or who shot them they just couldn't determine that specifically um and some of you know i would imagine that some people might go well you know you don't know like there was no definitive like you don't know if you did it or you didn't and there's just it's just i always just believed i

did and that sent me into a spiral that's almost destroyed me again yeah yeah how are those guys now how are those guys now larry's wife i want to say two thousand six or seven around that time it was a lot of blur of those next three years four years were pretty blurry um i used to call him in the middle of the night and begging for his forgiveness and crying and you know whether i was hammered on alcohol or cocaine or whatever it was just begging him to forgive me and finally she was like you know rut you can't call anymore don't call again so i haven't spoken to him since then

and John Beltran overdosed last fall and is dead and he battled a lot of demons after that injury

he was never able to really get back to full duty. He got hooked on pain meds and became a pretty substantial addict on an offer 20 years. I was married, had kids and lost that, marriage, everything. And you know, what's crazy is he would call me for years every August 18th, 19th. And he'd be like, hey, right man how you doing are you good and for years i would not pick up because i was ashamed and then you know finally i'd pick up and i remember one year i forget what a year was but i just started weeping he's like why are you crying i was like man i ruined your life you know i took your dream of being a team guy away from you because i fucked up

And I'll never forget. He's like, man, you saved my life. He goes, I'd be dead if you didn't act. He goes, war's hell, man. It's confusing. It's crazy. But if you hadn't had done that, I'd be dead. And I was never able to rationalize that as an acceptable component.

of my life, my existence, until I started to I met John. But last fall, when I got a call from one of my other closest friends, Johnny Sotelo, who was very close with John and Scotty Words, and, you know, he's middle of the night, typical call. He's like, hey, man, Johnny's dead. He just overdosed. and that was devastating because, you know, I would have been

I just wish I could have allowed his forgiveness to seep in and then I, for some way, shape, or form could have helped him, could have helped him rebuild his life or something. And so that's going to be with me. Damn, Dave.

You know, I know that was a big... I know you've battled up for a long time. How are you doing now? I mean, it's definitely cathartic to be able to speak it openly. I think there's probably six or seven people, you know, friends of mine from the community and when I was at Blackwater, the agency, and, you know, they've been amazing supporters and always say the same. You don't know if you shot them.

You know, you still were in there with them. you still help them you know and they've always been even you you've always been just I mean I remember the first one I told you and they were just like man you can't let that pull you down and

you know you made a gesture to me not long after that that was you sent me something and you know I have it buried in my closet and every now and then you know it'll be stumbling through and I'll see it and I'll just remember the support that I've been given

and people who care and know how devastating that's been for me. And, you know, the thing that you always want from when I was a little kid was just... Just not to let your teammates down. So I think, you know, I'll get an opportunity, you know, I'll get an opportunity. you know, to hug them and to say I'm sorry again. And I'm sure him being him be like, right, it's good, man, you're all right. You know, and if Larry's out there, I'm sure, because he had said the same thing a few times, too, it's like, man, it's okay.

Don't worry about it. You know, there's a strange, there's a strange thing in our way. world, you know, your whole, your whole reputation is built on what's going to happen under fire, you know, everything. And, you know, that few hours contorted my entire perception of what I could do and what I was worth for the next decade plus. us and warped my interpretation of who I am and whether I could do it or, you know, I shut every dream down within the community rapidly after that. You know, I'd wanted to potentially

screen, you know, but there was no way I could, I was like, I'm going to put my name in the had and someone's going to hear it and it'll be like you know fuck that guy he's not worth it here he can't handle himself out there and you know and then it was like all right well how do i redeem myself and all right well maybe i'll just get back in another platoon and and maybe go to iraq or whatever and then i was like and how do i live with it every day and every you know i finally and And it was crazy because the detailer, when I got back, I had in court, I'd asked, hey, that was my second deployment. You know, it was a combat deployment.

Can I put my name into screen? There was a screaming in November. And, you know, my bosses had hacked off the master chief at Team One had agreed. He would put me in. But, you know, then I'm like, man, I can't. There's no way. Somebody knows. Somebody's going to say, hell no, we don't want.

him over here. And so, you know, then it was like, all right, hey, how do I get in my another platoon in the detail? It's like, you're not going anywhere. You just took a little combat vacation for February to October from SQT. You're going back to SQT. You're giving me that time back. Then you're only an 18 Delta short course corpsman. Then I'm going to send you to the long course because we need long course IDC medics and the teams. And then once you're back from Fort Bragg then I'll let you go to a regular you're going to go back to a regular platoon

and you're going to do another regular platoon and then maybe you can screen after that and so I it was even if any of that had seemed like a pathway to salvation

for I just never believed I could ever recuperate my reputation in the teams there would always be somebody somewhere who knew that I had shot my own guys so I got out looking back what do you think you could have done differently

that night PID there's anything I can say to anybody who carries a gun for a living positively identify what you're going to shoot at if you don't it's crazy possible i don't know i don't know i mean i i mean i've gone through this scenario thousands of times in my mind i've evaluated my training

did i execute the training with which i was trained you know i think about all those hundreds of high ads at night and nilin you know in the night contact for hunt you know drop open fire peel left peel right like i think i did what i was taught but i also know i wasn't sure like i didn't have a dude in my sight with a gun i reacted to muzzle flash and you know i don't so it's it's that i think you know that's the key and that's the difference between, I think... I say all this, and I explain all this as a sensation. Like, this was...

The lesson was my own humility, maybe. The lesson was my being more meticulous, being more methodical, being more focused, being more whatever it is. But that's not the lesson. The lesson for me is this was a deployment. Remember when you asked me, why'd you go in? Did you want to kill people?

And it was more about that confrontation of death and how I would react and what I would do. And so that recon where I prayed, I felt the presence of God for the first time of my life, immediately after that, God started testing my resolve, was I going to maintain my faith? There was even an occurrence where we had gone out and done this long-range recon.

And mind you, when we were living in Canter Har, we were in these GP tents, horrible, 120 degrees out, Afghan dust, everything. And I would sit in my bunk here, and across from me would be Moni and J.C., John. and every day that we'd be in there they would sit and have Bible study together and every day I would watch them and think to myself what are they doing how do they do this how do they how do they how do they how do they connect to God or

Jesus or whatever that means in this moment like why why are they doing that and I didn't understand it. I didn't understand why it was so moving to me to watch them. And they would share Psalms and they would, you know, all types of verses from gospel to the Old Testament. And they would talk and they'd have Bible study together. And I would sit there and be perplexed and like, why? What is it doing for you? And like after that recon, I was like, pray. And I felt something. And then a couple weeks later we were doing this up and we're out in the DPVs. Nothing happened.

We got picked up. We came back. We're in the backs of the helicopters. We hit the flight line. We came down and we set up on a flight line. Well, before one a guy had had, you know, gotten on this. The helo had coming off.

He had forgotten to clear his Mark 19, you know, the Bell-Fed grenade launcher on the front passenger of the DPV. And so we got on like there, and I'm sitting there, and he had gotten sick on the vehicle from the fumes in the back and puked all over. And so I got my video camera, typical douchebag. And I'm like, ha, ha, ha, ha, new guy's puking, and he can't hold his whatever. And just get down in a vehicle. And our senior is like, hey, man, let's go.

They'll be right behind him. So we pulled out. We left. And we came around this fuel truck on a flight. line, go around that, and we're going to get back. And he's like, hey, man, where are they? Let's go back. And I was like, all right.

So we back up, come around, go back around a fuel truck. And the fuel truck front cab is smoking. And I'm like, that's weird. So we come out and come up, and Larry's just sitting, just shaking his head like this. And JC's got down like this. And I'm like, what's going on? And he had accidentally, when he cleared it, sent one flying, sent an A. and it right when we'd come around the back it had hit the cab gone through to the front of cab

and because of the metal plate on the driver's seat it hit that it detonated in the cab had it been a foot up it would have gone through the seat through the back hit the fuel tank exploded the fuel tank we would have been covered in fuel and I'm like oh my god why am I not dead and then a few leaks later that experience happened why aren't they dead and so now i'm in this battle of trying to make sense of what i'm supposed to take away from this deployment not oh you're dialed in you're you're you're a team guy you're a real frog man now you're strong and you're capable and you've got conviction and you can face things. It's more of God's trying to tell me something about my life

and what he wants me to do. And I wasn't, I didn't know how to evaluate that. I didn't know where to begin. And over that Christmas break, I'd met somebody and was like, all right, let's get married. That'll take me all right, that'll take me. away from this. It'll give me, and it was an excuse. It was a passionate romance that happened quickly. It seemed like it was a fit. And so fast forward, I asked her to marry me in a short amount

of time. And I was like, that's it. I'm getting out in June when my second enlistment's up, and I'm moving back to Florida. I'm going to get married and I'm going to have a normal life. and I'm going to figure out whatever I'm supposed to figure out. And that began a very arduous, difficult couple years, three years. And kind of the, there's a couple major points. One was Passion of the Christ came out in February of 9th, of, of October. four. I remember going to it. Meanwhile, I've never read the Bible. I've never studied the Bible, nothing. And I go to this movie, and from the first word that Jim Coveesial spoke, and, you know,

your interview with him is one of my favorite of all time. I was weeping, uncontrollably, like broken down. And then the whole, from, from, The moment he's, they bring him in and they start beating him all the way through the crucifixion, I was uncontrollable. And it didn't stop. I continued in this uncontrollable weeping for hours and hours afterwards. And then finally I kind of calmed down. There was a knock on the door.

And in came this box. And I was like, she's like, who's that from? I was like, I don't know. And it said, you know, JC up top. And I opened it up and it was from John and it was a gift. It was our platoon plaque and it was a bottle of a patron because he had felt so much shame and horrible that it had happened that I possibly could have died that he had come up to me. It's like, man, I'm so sorry. It's like, hey, dude, don't worry about it.

Just, you know, he's like, what can I do? And it's like, in the future, give me a bottle of tequila and we're even. It happens. Don't, you know you didn't want to. I know you didn't need you. I know you didn't have to do that. And so, like, here I'm consoling this guy who I'm witnessed to praying every day, the day I see passion comes me this thing.

Then I start thinking about why. Initials, JC. That's right. And that was the fight now I'm in. I felt like God was trying to communicate with me, but I was so ashamed of who I was and what I was that I couldn't do. And that was where things were ugly because she quickly realized

this was not a healthy relationship. She decided that we're done and kind of right at that time is when I got an opportunity and I went to work for Blackwater in the fall of 2004. Let's stop. Yeah.

Let's go back. For starters, I just want to say there's been a lot of vulnerability in that chair and a lot of humiliating confessions. I think what you just did is the hardest thing I've seen anybody

articulate. Thank you. Proud of you. Thank you. Love you. Love you too. What would you have done different after the incident when it comes to your relationship with these guys?

I should have gotten more involved. in wanting to know how the investigation took place what other people thought, what they saw. Like, it was almost like nobody would speak about it, especially to me. I think other guys probably talked about it.

But I almost just got isolated it. And so that would have been much better for me and to go and to engage in it immediately. I think I shouldn't have gone home when I got home. When I got to Bahrain, I should have sought out a pastor or chaplain or my chief or senior chief or someone and said, I'm struggling. I need some help. But that just wasn't a thing then. There was nothing.

And when we got home, it's like, see, you? 30 days and there was no support and so i came to florida and i'll never forget me and i my best friend's younger brother had a bachelor party and we went down to key west for this thing and i just was inebriated for days on end and just just couldn't communicate couldn't talk was detached this and so i wish i had done more to re-engage in a conversation Again, I just keep going back to that reality. You're not going to process this at an individual level. It's too immense.

And that's the component within the human condition. That's this intensity of pain. And when you have overwhelming pain, it elicits the deepest fears you have about your own insecurities, your own ineptitude, your own, you know, these fears, they overwhelm you. they begin to control you. And the only way you can diminish those is to engage with people that can help you

deconstruct those fears, pull them apart, take one piece, rationalize that one piece in a way that you can comprehend and handle. And I think that's a really intense thing, right? It's like, but I turned 30 in Afghanistan, and I certainly wasn't 30 emotionally in any way. And I think, you know, that's just the thing. You have to be able to go and engage. You have to do this. And I wish I had done that more with every one of those guys.

And I've pulled so away from all of those. I've lost touch pretty much with everybody that, was a part of that platoon, those are the other platoons that was there, people that were affiliated, people that were, you know, that were at SQT with me. I kind of pulled away from them. You know, the only person I really tried to stay in touch with was Bruce. You know, he ended up contracting, ran into him. But I'd call him and try and talk to him. stay in touch with him, tried to start a little business with him. And, you know, he ended up going through some challenges and ended up drinking himself

to death. And so I think that was kind of the person that I'd always hoped would give me the add-a-boy that would kind of replace that shame with some estimation of acceptance and maybe even a little forgiveness. You know, I think that's the thing we're all ultimately looking for. We're looking for forgiveness, right? We're looking for someone who loves us deeply to look at you and say, it's okay. Things happen, you know, we understand. And that's why my battle and my pursuit of Christ for the next 10 years was so substantial and so difficult. Because I didn't know how to ask Christ for forgiveness. I didn't know where to go for forgiveness. You know,

And it wasn't like there weren't people that were gracious and supportive. But it wasn't until really 06, where I went to church for the first time, really ever, on my own. And it was a guy, a mentor, my name, George Andrews, Reverend George Andrews, who was the first person that I was like, what does it mean to have faith? And that's kind of really where I started to heal. how do you feel now that you've shared that your deepest i mean it's secret it's nerve right it's scary it's scary i mean i i i've got to walk out of this room you know this episode will drop and you know i i i give a hundred speeches a year i'm in front of last year i was in front of almost 4,500 people

I've got my own show now, again, I, you know, I'm public, you know, what's going to happen to my kids, are their parents going to tell their friends? Are they going to be ashamed? You know, I know my wife is not because she knows the story and has been overwhelming the person who's benefited me most for processing that because she's had to process her own sense of shame at a high degree. And so, you know, but you don't know, you don't know how the world's going to react. But what I do know is that I know that Christ loves me no matter what. I know John had forgiven me.

I know Larry had said he'd forgiven me. and I know other friends of mine that, you know, are part of the community and adjacent communities have said, man, it's okay. Like, you don't need to carry that burden for your whole life. So, yeah.

You got a lot of respect for me for doing it. Thank you. I think you're going to feel a lot better. I think so. I mean, you know, we've talked about it. I mean, we've talked about it extensively, and we talked about it in the lead up to this. And I don't think there'd be anybody else I could do it with, you know, in this capacity.

You know, it's hard because, you know, there's a measurement of success that I think the public has, or a measurement of interpretation of how they interpret success of our community and that's you know these massive stories i mean you hear about these missions and these things that these guys get engagements and all this and you know there's it's not like they're um they're not building themselves up their bravado i think sometimes people have a tendency to look for that and people will embellish in certain stories. And obviously, that's always a challenge in anybody that's public or whatever.

But, you know, this has been that thing. It's like, hey, this is the reality of my combat experience. I don't have any, you know, grand firefights. I don't have any, I don't have any like, oh, you save the day. I don't have any of that. So I have that incident has encapsulated the space in spectrum. Now, I chased, I chased redemption for years.

That's why I went to Blackwater. That's why I went to the agency. I thought some moment, some time, I would have a moment where I could redeem myself. And, you know, there's been some things I've gotten, I was able to do that were, positive and healthy and all that but you know it it doesn't doesn't make that ever go away so that what you have to do is you just have to address it you have to live with it you have to

recognize that it's a piece of your nut life it's not all of you and I think you know that has taken me 20 plus years to to figure out Yeah, man. Yeah, man. I think this is that moment. It certainly feels like it. Good. Let's take a break.

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Me too. But I do. I just want to say again. man i know that took a lot of courage to get that vulnerable and to talk about that and you know however people judge you from here on out i mean you're a fucking great person thank you and that's all that really matters thank you i appreciate that you're welcome so then you go to work at blackwater hell of a story right there. My fiance had basically said, no, we're not getting married. And then I was working for a domestic security company at a Grand Rapids, Michigan called

D.K. Security. I was selling camera systems to strip malls. And I was, and the whole pretense I went to work for this guy, and he was a great guy, John Kendall, was his name, really amazing guy. Vietnam vet, U.S. Marshall was partnered with an FBI guy, but John was really amazing guy. My uncle, Dave, from Grand Rapids, had known him, got me the interview and got the job and really put a lot of confidence. But the whole thing was, like, they were going to let me start a division that I could start bidding on contracts overseas in Iraq and Afghanistan, which was where the money was, right? You know, and so I had recruited like six guys, two guys to come and help start it and launch it.

And there was a couple and figured out. I never forget, he was like, well, why don't you write up a business plan for me? And I'm like, well, what's a business plan? And he's like, you'll figure it out. So I go down to like Office Depot and get business plan pro-writers plus, you know, and it's like, oh, you know, what's your I bidon? And I'm like, I'm no idea. So I went page by page, step by step, insurance.

you know, Lloyd's of London, figured this, and wrote this 34 page, and like a month later, dropped it on his desk because I would go up there once a month. And he's like, what's this? And I go,

this is my business plan for starting contract work overseas because it's incredibly lucrative and I think we could kill it. And he's like, okay, I'll get back to you. And in the fall, I was not doing good.

I was struggling still, really, really charming. Like, when I first got out of the teams, there was a stretch in August, I got out in June, end of June, 03, in August, I had a 21 day stretch where I was vomiting and diarrhea, and like, it just was, I couldn't, I was just sick, really sick. And nobody could figure out what it was, nobody, and I just think it was the stress, it was maybe a parasite, it was something, whatever, and I was a mess. And the first person to really help me begin to heal was a woman named Maggie.

And Maggie was a woman, she was a healer, masseuse, she is amazing. And I had met her when I got home from that deployment, I couldn't turn my neck. My neck was so jacked up. And she had helped my mom, who was a tennis player, her scapula had frozen, and she had released it and was a wonderful person, amazing. So she had put me on her table for like four hours. And finally, I could move my neck for the first time in months. So I got out, I'm a mess.

My mom's like, you're not okay. And I'm like, yeah, no, no shit. And she's like, well, you ought to see Maggie. You ought to work with Maggie. And I was like, I can't afford her. She's incredibly expensive, right? And but it's phenomenal. She goes, well, she's got a son.

Why don't you, you know, work her son? her son wants to learn how to play football and the cross you know why don't you barter so i called her up and i said hey would you be interested and and she's like absolutely so we trade i start working with her son i think he's 12 years old and they're single mom whole thing rough upbringing dad not in a pitcher and and she would heal me and i'd get on the table we'd probably meet once every two months and i would be on that table for four hours and that started the process my body and my nervous That was the beginning of me trying to figure out. But by the next year, I'm miserable in the job.

And this very kind, nice young woman that I was with, she was just like, I can't do this. And I was like, all right. And then it was something like that day or two later, my buddy Joe Maastro Angelo, who I had gone through training with, I was at Team One with my first platoon with, you know, old Chochi. and he called and he's like he's like rut i was like what's up he's like hey man i need a guy you me maritime interdiction program overseas i need to know right now and i was like i'm in typical

team yeah typical team i go i'm in i'm in let's go what are we leaving tomorrow yeah no it was he's like you got to be at blackwater on tuesday i'm like the shooting school he's like it's not a shooting school anymore and and and and then goes and then on Friday we're leaving for Azerbaijan and I'm like what's Azerbaijan and he's like it's a country north of Iran don't worry about it. Meet you and so I it's like hey I'm taking off you know I go and I come we go over to Azerbaijan and we started this project and it's actually in the first part of Eric's book he talks about this project that we built and it was a Essentially, we took over the FID mission because SOF couldn't do it anymore because the opt tempo was so huge in Afghanistan, Iraq at the time.

So FID for the audience is basically U.S. forces training indigenous forces on tactics. Yeah, that's right. So we went over there, started a week, and then in February, March went over for 60 days. We redesigned their bases. Like, I geeked out on that stuff. I love designing things. So, redesign their pool. We did, like, a mobile shoot house, the ranges.

We brought them boats, motors. And we built a maritime interdiction program from scratch in Azerbaijan. And it was me, Joe. We had this kooky old team guy initially. But then we got this wonderful, amazing guy named Hugh Middleton, who was a former damn Nick, team one guy, brilliant guy. and it was the three of us and we built this program

and I remember the summer like the final FTX was to put these guys in Zodiacs on one of their cutters board it right at dusk and then board it at night and that was it

and like we were accomplished the task and you know about the day before we were able to go into that FTX we had finished retrofitting their pool and this was like this old 1950 spets not space from the from the communist days of Russia when it was a province. And we do the pool and we're like, all right, we're going to have a huya day. And there was a hook and climb. And we're

like, everybody, go get your wetsuits and meet us out here. We're going to do this. And like, hour and a half later, we're like, hey, where is everybody? Let's go. And we've got this interpreter and whatever. And they come out. And I'm like, all right, you guys ready. Here's the drill. We do it. And they were going to just jump in, swim, climb up, jump up, like a relay. Joe's sitting on top of the thing. He's right here. Ready, go. They jump in water. they couldn't swim. Oh shit. So the day before we're supposed to go bored underway,

and we'd already sent them out in the caspian in the middle of the night doing basic, you know, maritime navigation drills. They, no one knew how to swim, right? Because they said they had all been to Turkish buds. And I was just like, oh my God, they don't know how to swim. I'm like, I'm like, Hugh, they're going to miss the ladder. They're going to get foreign fatigue. they're going to go in a drink and they're dead.

We're going to kill people. We're going to go to jail in Azerbaijan. And, you know, it had been a wild ride. Azerbaijan's a trippy place, man. I mean, it's really, really wild. And I had struggled there for the first couple because of the breakup and that had failed and everything else. But then I kind of snapped in and I got in shape.

And Joe was a, I think it was like a blue belt or purple belt at the time. And he's like, we're going to train. And so we would leave the thing and go. to the national training site, and he would just beat the piss out of me every Tuesday and Thursday, and I didn't know what I was doing, but he would just pound on me. And we had this great relation. We lived in the Hyatt. It was just bizarre. I called it the last outposts, because that's where all the deals of the stands are done, right? Because one week you're in Hyatt, and it's all the Americans. Then the next week, it's all the Russians. Then the next week,

it's all the Arabs. And it's just like the cycle of peculiar place. It's like the cantina in Star Wars, And so we find out they can't swim. And so Hugh looks at us like, well, you guys are going to be the safety swimmers. And we're like, wait, what? Like, you're going to jump overboard, save the guy, and then we'll get that. They did it flawlessly. They did it great. So I remember Gary Jackson, who was the CEO at time, was like, hey, great job.

You guys will always have a job at Blackwater. You're good. And then, like, two weeks later, I got a call. And I was full time. Like, it was awesome. I was making six figures full time. time. We were getting ready to do another one, like a FID out and paycom. And like, this was it. We were going to be the Fid guys and write curriculum and all this. And I was like, this is awesome.

And I got my life back. And I got a call two weeks later from the head of training, big gym. And he's like, hey, man, we just had to fire you. That contract's out. But if you want to go to Afghanistan, we got a gig for you. So that September, I found myself in Afghanistan. And I was working on the Afghan counter-drug commandos. No shit. Yeah. I didn't know any of this stuff. Yeah.

How was that? Eye-opening and lightning. That was the first time I started to really suspect there was alternative motives going on in Afghanistan. On our part? Yeah. What kind? We were training the most incapable group of people to try and be commandos to take down the drug dealers. Mind you, at this time, Afghanistan's GDP, about 90% of it came from the sale of raw opium.

And they had three major points that they would distribute over to Uzbek border in the north, through Herat and Iran, and then down through Quetta into Pakistan. Mind you, Karzai's brother was the third biggest drug dealer in Afghanistan. And I found all this out from the DEA. We were working the DEA fast teams. These guys were the old cocaine cowboy days down in Columbia back in the 80s and stuff. And they were awesome. I love those guys. Man, it was so fun.

But we would train these guys, me and Joe, and a couple other dudes. And it was horrible. And then so I got the opportunity to go on a car. couple ops with them and you know still struggling in my own place and like I'm trying to still find that redemption and um I remember we hit one target up north and it was just empty there was no one there but kids right Afghan compound full kids women and a couple dudes we spread them up and and I remember like there's no one here there's no opium here there's no No, no, this is bizarre.

But I do remember that the kids, it was the first time that the destitution, the morale, the abysmal nature of a future possibility for those kids hit me, you know. And that was the birth of frog logic in that moment was like, oh my God, maybe there's something that I can effectuate greater change in love. with and through the barrel of a gun in my own pursuit of redemption. Maybe I can redeem myself by helping kids. And then I did another one, which was another fiasco, and I began to realize that we're not, we're not doing anything with drugs. We're not, this is just the sham. It's just spending of money to do all, to portray that, you know, the American military

or contractors, whatever, trying to, we're making an impact on the drug distribution. And I remember we did this trip. Our country league, T.L. needed me and Joe to provide security. We got on this helo went all the way up to Mazarsheri and got dropped off and he went off with these other kind of guys and came back and we flew back.

And I remember it was like, hey man, what was that all about? And he said, well, we just met with the warlord, who's like or the drug dealer up here and i was like oh did you where is he why aren't we interrogate him why don't we bring back he's like well there's they got a deal going or something like he feeds us terrorists or whatever and you're like wait what and then i found out this guy was pushing 1,600 pounds of opium across the used back bridge every week or something every week it was insane it was insane it was nuts like how much opium was leaving the country.

Then, so I went over to the DEA guys. I'm like, well, what's this look like street value? And it was, Afghanistan was still supplying the world with opium for heroin. They were still the number one distributor. And meanwhile, you're like, Tau ban isn't selling or all this. And I was like, wait, this is all a lie. And that's when it really kind of hit me. And what was other bizarre others, I picked up a last minute job going out.

They had said, hey, man, you did really good redesign in the bases and stuff in the training facilities. And Azerbaijan, do you want to do that? The side contract for the Afghan border police, where you design the training, the base, the whole thing. And then, you know, you lead this building project. And I thought I'd get paid more. And I didn't. And so here I am doing three jobs, getting paid for one as a contractor, not full time. And I just, again, kind of got to that.

point where I was like what am I doing with my life right now this is this is not where I want to be and out of that uh this this concept to work with kids emerged and because I at that point that trip was the first time I really started reading the Bible and I remember I read the New Testament through that trip and that's when you really just if if the word you let the word hit you, it can change you. And it did. And that's the inspiration for wanting to, you know, essentially put the gun down and start working with kids. And so initially I was going to try and go work with doctors without borders or, you know, a Red Cross or some organization that can go into these war-torn areas and I can help kids and then kind of work with kids on the side

or just do something to help kids that have nothing. And you've been there, you've seen these kids have nothing. Essentially, by the time they're 13, the girls are essentially just receptacles for procreation. Little boys are raped. I mean, it's just a brutal, brutal culture. And not all of them, but they're a heavy degree of them. And that was the thing.

I was like, all right. But then you start to realize, N. They can't stand working with soft guys, right? Because you're like, are you eff an idiot? Are you, are you an idiot? You can't go out there and do that. That's dumb, you know? And they're like, what do you mean?

We're helping people. And you're like, no. And in fact, you know, a team guy, Nick Check, died in an operation at, I think it was Red Squadron that did it where they went to go save a doctor. And he was appointment. And when they were going to hit the tart, a guy came out, saw him, shot Nick going through the door and Ed Byers went in and kind of saved the dock and protected him and received the mental honor for that. So I was like, all right, I don't want to do that.

That's not going to work. So I came home that Christmas and was really kind of like, all right, how do I do this? And I'd read a couple of different things. Three big things jumped at me. Teenage obesity was out of control. And I found an article about West Texas County that you know, 13-year-olds were some exorbitant high percentage of those kids were morbidly obese. I found an article about girls' teenage suicide was on the rise for the first time in 20-plus years or whatever. And then the other one I found from a couple psychologists who were studying the effects on young children from hyper-connectivity. And they had coined this idea called Internet Withdrawal Syndrome. And it was essentially the desocialization of children who were hyper-connected and just lived on their screens.

And these guys were kind of trend-setting in terms of the study. And as we now know, the effects on it are pulverizing, in particular post-COVID. I was like, well, I don't need to go overseas. I can just help kids in America. And let me try that. So I came up with the idea, the name, Frog Logic, and it's me paying tribute to the frogman of the name. And what I thought I would do is I would fixate first on self-confidence because that was the thing, the main thing that I had to rehabilitate coming out of school. And that's what I thought that buds and the training had done. It was it rehabilitates your self-confidence through these really unique evolutions and the ideas. And so I wrote this, you know, teeny little kids book called Forging Self-Confidence. And I started my. first like frog logic motivational training program at the local ymCA and there was eight missions

because i i had looked at everything i could pull out of or extrapolate that i had learned in buds and it was this like these 26 things and i condensed those down to eight core ideas or missions and i figured out how to geez meanwhile you know i'm just back from afghanistan and i'm telling my dad hey, I'm going to start a kids training company. He's like, you know, I'm telling my friends, hey, I'm going to do this. And people are looking at me like, what are you talking about right now? What are you? And I'm like, no, I'm doing it.

And the first guy that really believed in me was Jan Lennon and Jan I had gone to high school with. And he was an attorney and he moved back to Florida and we ran each other at a bar. And I'm like, how you doing it? He's like, good. And so I said, hey, man, why don't you go interview with my dad? and all this. But he was, he's like this guitar savant. And I said, hey, man, would you come over? I've got this idea. I wrote these songs that go with the missions and we can do it and that'll get the kids moving and all this. And he's like, he's like, that sounds cool. And it's like, he comes over and

I read the lyrics and he just plays the song. And it was like, oh my God. And next thing I know, I'm at his daughter's second grade class. I'm wearing my jungle boots, my tiger stripes and my, You know, I had Frog Logic polo, and kids are doing push-ups, and he's in his suit and tie playing the guitar. And it was awesome. And it was awesome, because it wasn't that. And it was like, okay, this could work. This could make me feel better.

This could give me some redemption. I did one more gig in Conis training, regular Navy personnel. had to board ships and at that point I was done like right after that I was had it fallen out someone had accused me of something and I was just like this is ridiculous

I'm not doing this and left and went full on with Frog Lodge and working with kids and that summer worked with a foster care home for boys I started talking to a couple schools and then in the fall

a guy named Kieran Kennedy in Canada from Ottawa because I had started putting some stuff on the internet and he found me and was like hey I want you to come up and work with my school and if you come up I'll introduce you to all these other schools and you can do your thing and so from 2006 seven and into eight I spoke to thousands of kids in North America and introduced Frog Logic to everybody you are a teacher and a mentor i mean we we kind of skipped over this because i thought we were going to chat about it after the afghan deployment but i remember being an sqt you had a hell of a reputation it was not bad but uh you were a cool motherfucker in all of our eyes and the

ft xs that you put together with the moulage kits and all the medical stuff that we did trying to put IVs and somebody who's going on the beach in the back of a pickup truck. I mean, it was challenging, and I learned a lot, and I still remember it to this day. And I also remember, you probably don't remember this. I was at my friend's house, Kyle Paulson, who lived down in IB. Kyle died. But he was renting a house with a couple people, and you showed up. for one reason or another.

I don't even think you knew us. I don't know if it was an accident, but you pulled up on your Harley. Drunk as a skunk. Maybe on some other stuff. I don't know. But I was, I think you had just ridden up from T.J.

And I was like, fuck, man. That dude is fucking cool. I was like, he's a badass instructor he's got a great energy overly confident do not want to fuck with that dude and yeah it just stuck with me that's i've been stuck with me forever but i mean i appreciate and even afterwards man he made after i had gotten out of the agency and we'll get to this stuff but i mean you really helped me you mentor i remember going up to your office

in that building and boca when i moved there and mapping my business out and all the different ideas. And it was, like I said, Ben, you were the only person that gave me the time of day back then. Nobody else had time for me. There's just something in your eyes, man,

all the way back in those days. I remember going to that part. I remember coming back from T.J. with Pat. We'd gone down there and just... That's who it was. Pat Bablin. That's right. Another crazy motherfucker.

He made me look tame. Is he still alive? I think Pat's it. I think. I'm not sure. The last I heard he'd owned a bar in Cambodia where you could pay $100 and shoot a water buffalo with an RPG. But Pat and I, we'd drive down into TJ, man. We go down in intense need us.

What were you guys doing down there? How bad did it get? Be honest. Remember I was in a rough place. Oh, I know. Now I know. Nobody knew that at the time. Nobody thought you were.

Because I, I, you, you, you learn how to put the facade on, right? So people don't see how much pain you're in. And, and the way you do that in the teams, you just, you know, you put a little, a little bit of, sprinkle a little crazy on yourself. And that can, people have a tendency like, I'm not going to ask him what's going on. You know, and meanwhile, I'm hanging out with, I mean, absolute madmen. Like, I mean, Scotty Wirtz, I mean, me, Scotty, Johnny Satello, I mean, we would, I mean, Pat Bablick, I mean, it was like full tilt every time I'd go out with dudes. So, you know, it was, it was hard. There was a lot of, a lot of trying to numb myself from what was going on.

But, you know, I remember that party coming back and I remember. just where I, the thing for me was I always had the most respect for the youngest guys because of, of Nick Hawks and Pete Scobel. They were, like, I mean, Nikki was 18 and buds. And I'll never forget a story. We were 208 and Mike McGrath was our O-I-C and he came out. We remember he used to, like, after the end of the day, he'd get in the pit and like, all right, who has any You know, gripes are concerns, get it out, and someone, you know, you get the junior officer's like, well, we got to be more squared away, and we got, you know, and it's like the hoo-ya, and I remember one day, Nikki raises his hand, he kind of saunteres out in the middle,

and he goes, any you fucking pricks don't feel like putting out, then just quit now, would you? And this little kid, like, he's buck 35 soaking wet. And in that moment, I was like, holy God, he just. The strength at that age, I mean, at 18, I was a blithering idiot. And to see young guys, and it's what? It's like 96, 97% dropout rate for guys under 19 or something like that. It's abysmal. And you were one of those young guys.

I mean, dude, I remember the first time I saw you, I was like, this guy's like 15 years old. What is he doing here? Me, literally. That's how I felt. Well, and it's like, but you were. just, you were feisty and tenacity. You had that look like those other guys and you weren't going to quit and you absorb things quickly. And so I respected that. And, but, you know, you're where I was, like, I don't, you just, you just drive on. And so, you know, I think, I'm trying

to remember when we reconnected, you know. We reconnected, we reconnected what I'm, well, actually, we reconnected, we reconnected, we reconnected, Briefly, very briefly, one reason or another, I was in, I went to Boko. Yeah. I don't remember what the hell I was doing there, but very briefly at your house. Yeah. And then the real reconnect happened when we got, when we really started to get close is after that safe house got hit that I was at. Oh, my God.

We were contracting for the agency and you stepped off the helicopter. But we'll get there. Okay. We'll get there. So frog logic, you start that, you write books, speaking, mentoring, all kinds of stuff. I had a security company called Trident Security Solutions. I was trying to design curriculum, three-dimensional curriculum with new technology. Because I thought, I always hated PowerPoints because, like, you just recycle them, right?

And then team guys, they'll just put a funny picture in, and that's their addition to the curriculum, right? or a funny video because videos were coming out and I was like this is ridiculous so much of it and I had this guy this another buddy

from St. Andrews who was doing incredible stuff with three-dimensional design his name was Dave Karam and we approached him and I said hey dude I've got this idea

to take all the IGs from the military we'll start in the SEAL teams and we'll turn them into three-dimensional so imagine your SIGSauer dissecting you can see the function

of it and how it disciplines your M4 your night vision, all your equipment. And then the other thing is on this system, you press one button and translate it into other languages, and it's all on your disk. Remember, you'd travel with the cruise box,

and every IG, you'd go everywhere with this huge box of cruise box. So now it's like everything fits in the CD folder, and we called it Trident Virtual Solutions, TBS. And I remember we went out to Buds and pitched it, buds and all this and and I had no idea about you know the the game and or anything and so that kind of failed miserably but but it was the it was the kid stuff that really really made me feel better and then at that time I I met my my ex-wife and we'd known each other for a long time and we kind of grew up you know and and together and she's younger and I had kind of like all right

I need to change my life, settle down, and this is it. And so it seemed like we met, and the opportunity time was right after my last Blackwater thing. And so it's like, all right, my life's, holy cow, I got some control. I was getting in shape. I was, you know, I felt good about myself. And everything was going pretty well. And then the economy collapsed.

and schools can't don't have any money and I couldn't you know pay my rent and and I was like oh no what are we going to do and I think it was in spring of of 08 a friend of mine reached out was like hey dude I've got a gig that I think you'll like it's working with the agency and you'll be training case officers Are you interested? And I was like, absolutely. You know, yes, out of necessity financially, for sure, but also to be able to go back and teach and then to be able to work with the agency was, I was like, this is going to be the coolest thing in the whole world. Like, finally, you know, these guys are, because by then you knew that I understood the power that they had to conduct operations.

and the control of information flow and the role that they had played, you know, and we're playing at a high level. And so just jumped at that opportunity. And so April of 2008 was my first course. And we ran this course on the Blackwater campus. It was not through Blackwater. They were called the U.S. Training Center they had sold. Eric had to sell from all the fiasco that he had gone through.

And I remember showing up, and I was like, all right, this is going to be awesome. And the whole idea is that case officers, you know, were co-located on FOBs, regular caseoffs, not PMC, a paramilitary case. They were on FOBs now, and the kinetic nature and the opt tempo was so insane that they were integrated with J-Soc units and other, you know, regular, you know, Tier 2 soft units. and they were like information was being converted into actionable intelligence in real time and so these guys like you know you mean you know the deal they're in the fob they do a meet they get intel that you know somebody the buddy's you know brother's sister's cousin's aunt uncle is in the town for the next four hours he's a bomb maker you give him the bag of cash will, you know, it becomes like the country chief

can make it actionable or even the base chief in some cases. And so these guys were then the task unit guy, the dev group guy, the Delta guy would be like, all right, you're getting in the bird with us and you're going to PID this guy because we don't know the case. We haven't worked and we're not doing it. And they would pull these young kids

who had one week of pistol one week of long rifle in the farm and they'd be operational with these guys and so my assumption was my job was to turn them into operators and i'll never forget i show up first course and dave was the the course lead who's s f guy loved them from baltimore just total snap heart i've had funny as hell great dude and then the the guy from the agency Man, he looked like George Foreman. He was awesome, man. But he was just the coolest dude.

And I was like, I'm working for the CIA. And I was like, all right. And so first two days were medical, and I taught that. And then we go into shooting and pistol on the course. I got this female case officer. And she points the gun and she shoots. And we're not like two meters, three meters, whatever it was, you know. And single shot, single dot.

And she misses the target. And I was like, okay, let's do it again. this again. And I was like, give me the gun. And I, you know, keyhole five-round rhythm drill. And I was like, it's not the gun. And she goes back and she misses again. I'm like, what in the what is this Jason board bullshit? You know, and I'm screaming at this poor, like, team guy asshole. And she starts tearing up, you know. And I'm like, there's no goddamn crying in combat, you know, and I'm just a complete asshole to this poor girl. And Dave's like, hey, hey, hey, man, why don't you go get some ammo? And I was like, I'll be right back, you know.

And I'm walking away. And this dude who's, I didn't met him yet, he just showed up. And he's like, hey, man, come here. Come over. And I was like, what's up? And he's like, hey, you're your team guy. And I was like, yeah. He's like, you're an instructor. too, right? And I was like, yeah. And he's like, okay. He goes, man, if you keep that up, like, they're going to ask you to leave at lunch. And I'm like, like, what do you mean? He's like, yeah, they don't play. They're not operators. They're not here to become operators. He goes, I've seen it. I've seen team guys land overseas in Iraq, going to a brief, start, you know, spouting off, and then get right back on the bridge and go home. Like in the same. In the same,

night and I was like holy cow and uh that was Tonto no shit yeah and that's where I met Chris and and it was the best advice I ever got and so that changed it and and what was amazing for me is I was with a really amazing group of guys there was Brian some other dudes and um John um who ended up being in Benghazi and and and Tonto was there and and I learned, all right, what can I learn from them? And so for two years, I got this incredible education because we'd have, you know, 15 to 20 some case officers come through and there, some people would have 27 years, you know,

being done all kinds of insane, amazing things. And I would identify somebody I really admired. And I would say, can I have breakfast with you, can I have lunch with you, can have dinner? Do you want to get a beer afterwards? And I would just ask them, what do you do? And how does it work? And they taught me more about people than anybody had ever taught me. Because that's what they do for a living. They're the world's best interviewers. And they're brilliant. And they don't need to be Jason born. All they have to do is be intellectual and sophisticated and understand the dynamics

within the human condition, which cultivate different motivations, right? And if you can learn someone's motivations, you can extrapolate information. And that, I got this overwhelming education, and it really transformed me. And it became something. And I met this one incredible guy, Todd. And we just became immediately close friends and former EOD guy and had been on, on, mobile and was home because he had some infection in his ear from Afghanistan and lost his balance and so he was teaching now and he was amazing we became friends and I loved it I loved it but my

problem was is like I just really gotten engaged and was serious and had playing it starting to plan a wedding and I'm gone 15 days on 15 days off 15 days on from April till November December And that's really how my relationship started, right? And so I finished that first year. She had said, hey, I don't want you to do this anymore. And I was like, okay. So I went to work for another friend, actually, Jan Lennon. It was a mortgage marketing company out of the Boston area.

So now I'm, you know, one minute I'm teaching case officers, you know, how to better integrate with J-Soc. units and learning and in the mix of it, you know, because it was 08. It was the height of everything going on. And now I'm like showing up at banks and trying to promote this marketing business. And I was, God bless him. I mean, he was wonderful to me. Jeff's an amazing human being. And he believed in me. And I was like, I'm going to support you and get you out of this. And I couldn't do it. Like got married in November and then by March. I was like, I'm done. I'm going back. And so immediately started 2009, all through 2009. And then in the

beginning of the fall is when Todd was like, hey, man, do you want to deploy? Do you want to do this? Do you want to go mobile? And I was like, yeah, I do. I really do. I had been deployed like that since 2005. I felt like a hypocrite. I felt like I was saying things that I didn't really know. I didn't know the operations of it. I was just, you know, I felt, I almost felt like I was a fraud, you know. Really? Yeah, it was, again, that insecurity came out. Remember, I was still seeking the retribution.

I was still seeking the salvation of the experience. And I wanted to redeem myself, and I felt the only way I could redeem myself, I went down range again and got involved in that. And I remember I was, he was like, all right, the head recruiter is going to be at the long distance range and we're out there and we're doing just some sighting and stuff or whatever and this truck pulls up and all of a sudden I hear this voice. I'm like, I know that voice and I turn around and it's a friend of mine that I had been in the teams with was that I had gone to the paramac refresher and it's him and he looks at me

He goes, what's up, right? He goes, so you want to go overseas, huh? And I was like, yep. He's like, done. I'll get you in the training course. And that's it. So that, like the next month, I went through the three-week training course. And like you said, I remember one of my favorite part, there were a couple of my favorite parts when you did the interview with Tucker Carlson.

But you talked about it. And I thought you did it at a tremendous service. I thought it was tough. It was hard. The shooting was hard. Shooting package was hard. The, you know, the surveillance stuff, the calm stuff. And I really enjoyed it and met some great, had a couple, you know, buddies, team guys, Yost was with me.

And there was, I remember there was a ranger, Chris, the rock. And, man, he was hard, just tough. I still talk to Chris. Do you really? Yeah, he's doing good. Yeah, every now and now. then I'd send him an email or something like that. But I, he would just call me out because after Tonto had told me like, hey, like my whole mentality was like, I'm going to be Mr.

Positive all the time, right? And I'm going to be that guy that drove him nuts, man. He would be like, you're so full of shit. He's like, shut up. I remember it was, it was freezing cold. in eastern Maryland, at whatever that dude he did, the CQD shit was. I forget what his name was. And freezing outside. I'm like, this is awesome, man, you know.

And he's like, shut up. But he would just call me out. But he was like, he's the one who set the tempo. And so went through it, past that, and then got a date, a deployment date, for January 2010 but that last class I did and this was the trippy thing

that last class I did we had a woman come through that was a big deal she had been on the original bin Laden desk and they were grooming her for seventh floor but she wanted to do

a combat deployment she wanted to go finds our Howie and and I remember she came through and I remember them telling me hey you know there's a lot of eyes on this I want you know they're like rut you're one of the best instructors really get behind her

and explain not only what it is that she needs to be aware of with the units she's going to have at her disposal and around her but also really emphasize how positive the group

you know GRS is going to be and how much they can assist her and what they can do. And I remember, you know, when we graduated, we went to dinner me, her and another junior CEO. And I remember just talking to her and was really emphatic about the dynamics of being downrange and the complexities of it and just was not forceful, not rude, not anything, but tried to be as adamant as I could about the importance of working together

and really what that meant. Because I really didn't know the dynamic. I'd never been downrange operationally with the agency yet. And I remember graduated class, good luck, God bless. And was on holiday in Colorado. We were coming home. from that trip and I found out that that's when that double agent blew himself up and was it it was

skin right coasts she was in coast and and eight uh grs and case officers were killed and she was she was a part of that and you know they had you know struggled with the dynamics of the security profile for that because he was telling her like I had met was our howie I know it where he is. I've got the info, and so they kind of altered some protocols, and he detonated himself. And I remember we lost some good guys. Jeremy Weiss was fresh out of the teams, and on GRS. Southside was one of the most respected guys in the whole program, and he died, and then some of the case officers as well, too. And that was like, okay, welcome to go. Because like the next week, I was on the bird over and landed in Afghanistan in January at 2010

right after that. What was your first trip? January 2010. Where? Lash. That's when we met. That was my first trip. Like, I got off the plane, went over, middle of the night, walked in, and this was my

favorite part of, oh, you were my favorite part of that whole thing, but that's the next story. I walk in and there's Evan Hafer and he was a greeter and he was just like, you know Evan, he's just kind of like, it's always just kind of like chill, right? And I was just like, all right. And he's like, you hungry? I was like, yeah, yeah. So we sat down and started eating everybody else kind of took off and we just started talking. And one of the questions that I always asked people dating all the way back to Blackwater was

what's your plan? Like, how are you going to get out of this? How are you going to figure out how to put the gun down and move on with your life? And I was sincere. I was interested. And, you know, at that moment, the number one response was, I'm going to do about four years of contract and save up enough and then I'm going to open a bar. You know, that was, that was the answer. And I was like, that's such a bad answer. And I remember Evan was the first guy that had a whole idea, all planned out how he was going to do it and what he was going to do and I was fascinating we talked for like six straight hours was a black rifle coffee no no it was he had so one of his original ideas was to start a crowd source funding for veterans startup companies it was brilliant and and he had some other

tech ideas and gear stuff and his mind is just fascinating once he starts talking about it and yeah black rifle didn't emerge until a few years later and um But we became really fast friends. And he was the one, this is what you got to think about. This is what you got to do. And then, that was a couple days later, I was on that helo and landed in Lash. What's your side? So again.

Did they tell you what you were walking into? No. They didn't fucking tell you? I mean, remember the country T.L. who I liked a lot. race yes loved him i thought he was brilliant i thought he was great and he was kind of like well you're going to a site that's kind of been going through some stuff they had to leave a safe house but didn't get the story at all and there's a new you're moving into a new base that's being built and i was like yeah awesome man cool wherever fired up let's go and i've ever taken a

he'll ride down there and we landed and I remember seeing the British footprint and then we landed off to the side, not near it or in it or anything. I was like, where are we landing out here? And I came out and just trying to look around and it's still spinning and I'm like, what's up? Where, you know, who's, you know, and I'm loud or whatever. And they're like, come on, you with us. Get over here and get in the vehicle and got my, you know, my kid. bag and put it in and you were there but I didn't know it was you you you know and I remember we drove out it was like into the other place and the lights came on and I was like holy cow I know you and you're like what's up right you know and I was like and you're like and you said your name

and I was just like holy cow I was like what are you doing here man and you're like we're just pissed you were so living i was like i was like dude like you're my connection man you're the team guy i need a team guy you know and and you just could not speak like you were fired up and that's what i remember was was the introduction that was pretty pissed yeah so yeah before you got there just to fill in the audience i just switched from blackwater to SOC for a pay raise. This is my first deployment was SOC. Met AVE, met Evan.

Connected with him immediately. Great, great rapport. And he's like, oh, you're going to this site, Lash Cargaw. I'm like, okay. Go down there. Little bitty safe house. You can hear their interpreters fucking each other in the middle of the night. None of the agency Blue Badgers or the agency employees had ever been to combat zones,

at least to my knowledge, especially the chief of base. And we were doing all these meets. At the time, Lashkar Gah, Helman, Province, was the hottest zone in the country. We would go and we would meet these people. You know, we'd do our little SDR for those that don't know. It's kind of like a counter-surveillance-type route that you would take in. And the main thing working with agency doing that kind of a job is don't be time and place predictable. Well, Chief of Base was lazy, had no experience in a war zone.

He's a Cold War guy. And I come down there and immediately start picking things apart, which still hadn't figured out. that's not how the agency works they don't like constructive criticism but i said it anyways because i knew some shit was going to happen and i said hey um in a morning brief said hey we've already run this route three or four times same time same route we're time and place predictable we need to change things up of course they blow it off i'm like well we're going to get fucking head We're in this little house, in this little compound. About 12 hours later, gunfire starts.

And they, I can't, I think, I can't remember if it was Taliban or Al Qaeda or who, but they had taken over a high-rise building in town. Local Afghan police were trying to take care of it. they just started chucking grenades down shooting RPGs or bullets flying everywhere. We couldn't get a good vantage point to shoot back. This went on for like 10 fucking hours. It was insane.

And we were pinned down. We couldn't get out. So we started burning all the classified material. I remember the chief of base was hiding. in a bathtub, going, oh, my God, we're going to die. We're going to die. And my buddy, do you remember Devo? Yeah.

Devo yelled and looked in the bathroom, like, what the fuck are you doing in there? Get up and get a fucking gun. And that, you know, so anyways, we're burning all this shit. The Brits actually had to come extract us out of there because we couldn't fucking get out. And so they sent in this huge convoy, a big show. force to come extract us out. Then they dump us in the shittal base that we're building with

no bathrooms. No nothing. Yeah, no front gates. 140 local workers inside the wire every day. And so I'm fucking pissed. I'm like how I'm like, how the fuck did I want it up here?

I thought this was supposed to be better. And, yeah, it was demoralized. It was demoralized because they weren't taking any constructive criticism. We just got hit. Could have gotten killed. It actually came out later that they had pinpointed exactly what house we were in. They had over 100 fighters on the other side of the river just about a click away, a kilometer away. And so they started doing drone passes to try to scatter them.

it was nasty and uh they told us we had reinforcements coming so we go out wait for the heloes to come in did you come in with race race was already there i think no you came in the race because he he had to go yeah me race and k and yeah he comes down i think evan was with us too now evan later he came a couple weeks later he didn't come while i was there okay you left and then he came out until we got guy that's what it was and the way I remember it you jump off the helo and you start yelling and I was

like what the fuck is that who I think it is Rudd is that you yeah yeah who is that and and then I gave you the lowdown and you're like what the fuck

is going on when we're back and you yep you had that that super positive attitude And I'm like, get that shit away from it. I don't want to fucking hear it. You're running around trying to set up oak horses in the fucking camp. And I'm like, I'm not doing that shit.

There's no fucking way. You got a bottle? The morale was, it was abysmal. And the morale was bad through the whole community because of what had happened in Coast. And I was like, all right, how do we even operate when every, that just happened I'm at this place coast just I'm like

this is a shit show dude and I was like all right I can just start I just kind of lifting people up man and God that did not work it did it did not work at all

but funny story about that I don't know if you I don't know if you were there yet or not but that same chief of base after this happened he wanted to he still continued to act like a hard ass and there was all that we had a cat problem lots of fucking stray cats everywhere

pissing shit and all over the place he's like hey get rid of these fucking cats and my buddy Scott goes out and he puts these bricks in a pillowcase and he walks up to the he walks up to the chief of station and he goes

hey I got the solution to your cat problem and he starts flinging this pillowcase around full of bricks. And he just goes, whamms these fucking, this pillowcase full of bricks on the concrete right in front of them. And his face, his face was just like,

I can't believe you did that. He goes, it's just fucking bricks. Yeah. It was, dude, it was the funniest. I think that might have been the only time I laughed.

that entire fucking deployment other than when we got shit faced up that bottle of Jack Daniels and whoever brought and I wound up falling on a hole and sleeping it off in there until race comes over he's looking at me

he's like rough night last night. Dude, that was a good night though. Because everybody needed to blow off Wolf's theme, you know? Yeah. Do you remember the PMCO Jeremy and then his guy who looked like, were they there?

Lee, who looked like the guy who was the cowboy. It looked like the metal gear solid guy. Which one? The metal gear solid guy. Yeah, yeah. Snake or whatever the hell of his name is. Those guys, they crack, like, every time I'd need a sanity check, I'd go over to them. Oh, I wasn't doing it for you?

No, dude, no. I'd be like, holy cow, dude. like he's about ready to bust a gasket, dude. And nothing, like, and I'd come near you and you'd look at me and I'd be like, all right, I'm going to go over here. I'd go the other way, dude. Yeah. That was, that was my end doc.

Like, that was my first trip. Holy shit. I didn't realize that was your first trip. And, and, like, leaving that and getting home, I'm like, whoa. Me too. I was like, whoa. Can I do this again? And the next, the next...

The Coast had just happened, too. Just happened. And I had mentioned that. It was like, this just happened. Yeah. It was, everything had gone wrong. And then I went into the place where it was the worst. And nobody was, was, I think the morale was just at a all-time low at that point.

What did you think of the agency, overall, the entire experience? I think they, I mean, because I did a number. another. I did a 90-dayer that summer, which was better there. It was a lot better. It didn't get much worse than that. Yeah. It couldn't have gone any worse. But we got a good T.L. Who was good? He worked with the guys a lot better. We had some guys doing good casework. And it was good. It was long. I mean, it was the summer and last 90 days. Oh, you went back to Lash again? Yeah, I did a 90-dayer. It was crazy because because my ex was pregnant with our first and this was the one I was like, after that I was like,

all right, this is the one I'm going to get shot or blown up on or like, and that was the summer I got saved. That was the summer I came to Christ. How did that happen? I had been working hard, reading a ton of the Bible, really trying to understand. And I think I got to the place where I don't know if I felt, Like, I deserve Christ's love, but I know I was loved by Christ, and I wanted to make sure that if I died and my child was born, that my child would know that I was a Christian. And so I called a little pastor at the church we went to in Del Rey, and it was like, hey, man, you know, giant beard, the whole thing, and, like, I want to get baptized.

And so I went in, got baptized, and then left right after that for 90 days. And that was awesome because on that trip, I really leaned in to reading the Bible and really tried to understand it. And, you know, it was a good, it was a better trip than that first one for sure. And so I began to appreciate, I became friends. There was one guy that had been around a long time who had actually come through training a couple years before who was there, who I really liked Robert. And he was wonderful to me.

and really was insightful and was understanding and was good. And so I think at that point, the job was, it was good, it was good, but it wasn't what I thought it was going to be. I thought it would be doing a lot more, you know, sneak and peek stuff and all kinds of stuff. But I remember that summer also, too, was when the Marja push. began and I remember we had a PMCO that had come out he was a former I think colonel in the Marine Corps and his son was out there in a Marine Corps unit and they were doing overt daylight patrols and a guy a kid that was in front of his son had it tripped an IED because they were just planting them every night they'd walk through and blow these poor kids up and and and

And I remember him and the pain in him and how frustrated he was with what the regular military was doing, what the mission was. And also that summer is where I began to understand the problems of that there was no genuine mission. It was just presence. And it was coming up with things to figure out. out how to do just collection and whatever and you know I think that the J-Soc guys were still doing great work and some of the the the GB guys were doing great work and you know but I I was so new I was difficult it wasn't until the next deployment so I got home um first child was born and then about 30 days later is when I went started my

My second rotation, I went to Pakistan. And that's where things got interesting. How so? It was just a different thing. It was more of the sneak and peak stuff. It was low profile. It was sketchy, you know, where we were. And it was real work.

Like, it felt like it was real work because, you know, we were, you know, in Western Pakistan Pesh. And, you know, there was a lot of stuff that's where everybody. kind of works things out and what you know all the the stuff that's going on and i met some really talented guys um really talented guys that's when i met max and i met some other guys and i'll never forget you know i'm still trying to portray you know captain positivity and i'll never forget we're in the chat hall in the middle of the night and i couldn't sleep and i go in there max is in the corner i'm in a cup of coffee and i'm like what's up man how you doing and he goes

I'm like, he's like, shut the fuck up. And I'm like, what, what's up? And he's like, I know you're not like this. I know you're not that motivated. I know you're not that happy. So shut up. And immediately became good friends. And that was where that was interesting.

That was really, I don't know if you remember. Remember the guy, the Green Beret, who was in Karachi, who they tried to rob him. and the guy in the motorbike turns around, points the gun at him, and he pulls out his piss. Yeah, Ray Davis. That's right. They got his book right over here. That's right.

And that created an international incident. And what I didn't know at the time, you know, that was the beginning of the lead-up for the bin Laden raid had begun. And that made operations really difficult because they were, that just all hell came loosed down on the thing. And so we, our profile really ramped up. And it was, I remember, you know, hey, we really got a lot more intel. We got to be aware. We got to pay attention.

And then I was there for like 60 some on days, I think it was, left, came home. We moved with a newborn up to North Carolina. North Carolina to Asheville, remember? Because you had just moved to Boka. and you're like, dude, where are you going? And I was like, I got to get out of this town, man, I can't be here. And I had moved up there and the hopes we'd find something out in house and, you know, build a little range and just kind of have some peace. And then I remember the bin Laden raid happened.

And then right after that, because I, when I was up there, I had developed some videos and started, because I was like, Like, man, I can't keep, I don't know if I can keep doing this. Like, this isn't going to be healthy. It's definitely not healthy for my relationship. It's definitely not healthy for me because I was still chasing something that really wasn't going to happen, right? You're not going to get into the, I mean, how many GRS guys do you ever know that got into the huge firefight and the, you know, and the whole thing?

And not a lot. And so, you know, it's all pretty low pro. And if you're good at what you do, it's nobody knows you're there and you do it subtly. and that was the thing. And so I started, like, going, all right, and I remember right after the Bin Laden raid, a person had called, contacted me through my website. I was like, hey, do you want to do a speaking engagement

for this Fortune 100 company? And I was like, absolutely, yeah, all in. And she's like, okay, it's about an hour talk. How much do you charge? And I was so dumb, I was like, okay, a lot is a daily rate, right? And it was like $750 at the time or whatever. I was like, okay, I'm going big. Like, this is a big company.

I'm going big. I was like $2,000 and I will, you hire me and I'll do whatever you want for 24 straight hours. Like, I'll do breakouts. I'll do training. I'll do team building, whatever you want. And the lady stops. It was so funny. Her name was Darcy Beaus.

And she had been the agent, she'd been Oprah Winfrey's agent at one time. and she worked a lot of the Bulls, the Chicago Bulls back in the 90s worked with her, and now she had, she placed speakers with. And she stops you, she goes, hey, listen, can I be frank with you? And I was like, yeah, and she goes, that's the dumbest number I've ever heard. And I was like, what, what do you mean? She goes, just because you're Navy SEAL, you should charge 5,000. And if you can actually speak and you're articulate, you should, you could charge 10.

Because here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to tell them 6,000. going to take a thousand and give you five how's that i was like five thousand dollars for one speech and i was like oh my god and i did that and then a week later i redeployed back to pakistan and this time it was sketchy it was just we were we felt like we were always on the defensive it got so sketchy and pesh you know and there was one point uh one thing that really kind of has stuck with me and what was really a pivotal moment for my beginning to lose faith in some of the institutions that I had held on a pedestal and that was after the

raid obviously the doctor who had gone and led us you know found out it was him he got wrapped up and they were holding him in a jail and and I don't know where it came from or what it started but it kind of emerged that all right we're going to go you know storm this jail break him out take him with us and get him out of Dodge and get him out of country and and it got shut down and I don't know if that guy's still in jail I don't know what's happened to him I don't know but that was that was that was that was painful um and that that's when you start to realize oh there's a different way of doing things um and the rest of that at the point we ended up having

to leave pash uh get out i mean i remember we were coming they had asked me to develop a whole emergency plan like what do you do if we because they were we were getting like we had one group of guys get shut down, you know, at night, checkpoint, video, TV show, TV cameras. They're sitting in their kit. So then there was, like, stories. I remember one story in the new pick, the Blackwater Assassins are in Pesh. And the only way you could kill them was silver bullets. And we had that up and, like, bizarre stuff.

But it got heavy. It got sketchy. And we had incredible guys out there. And they were, and so we ended up pulling out. and producing back to the consulate and we took off and went to Islamabad and spent the rest of the summer in Islamabad operating and that was a whole different

thing too. Now it's like you're in a city doing it and it was a whole different game and again there was some amazing amazing guys. There was this Green Beret medic who was just out there but like he was dialed in like he had it down Pat

he knew how to drive low pro he knew it had mingle in in the city low pro he was an animal in the gym and like he i was just like and he was a brilliant medic and i was like all right and then i also met randy rhodes and the combat chassis and i just fell in love with that guy and you know he was hilarious and his look and take on the whole thing and he like kept me smiling and then max and then I ended that, finished that, and then came home, and then went back one more time in the fall. And that was the end of it for me. What year did you stop contracting? I was September, October, November of 2011.

Because I missed, I missed, I missed Blair's first birthday. And that was devastating. And I came home, and my ex was just like, if you keep going, we're done. And I didn't want to lose my family and I didn't want to lose anything else. So I hung it up, you know, and that was probably one of the hardest things I ever did. But because I never got redemption. But I was okay in my faith that, like, okay, I'm going to go all in on this other thing, this trying to help people with Frog Logic and training and motivational coaching and stuff.

And I'll never forget, I was home and I was praying hard on it, like, God, you know, give me something. What do I do? How do I move on? And out of nowhere, a guy I had gone through training with back in the day, Kyle Crowberger had reached out, had seen my stuff online, and was like, hey, man, do you still speak to companies? And I was like, yeah, I do. As a matter of fact. And he's like, do you suck? And I was like, I don't think so.

I think I'm okay. And he was working for a mutual fund company called Pioneer Investments. And he's like, if you're any good, we use speakers all the time. If you're any good, I'll use you. Then my buddy will use you in that one. And I think I did something like 30 events that year. And that launched my speaking career where I didn't have the contract anymore. Wow.

Yeah. And that was the transition. for my new life. We've got a lot of friends that are still contracting. Yeah. Some of them contracting over 20 years now. Yeah. And, you know, you get sucked into that money.

It's about, what, maybe $250,000 on the low end, maybe $350,000 on the high end. If you're killing yourself. Yeah. What advice do you have for guys that are caught in that hamster wheel? The one out, that feel trapped, maybe they weren't smart with their money, they want out, they want to rebuild their family. Humble yourself first. And just give up the sensation you're chasing.

you've done it enough and just restart the problem is the identity shift um you know there's you know there's institutionalization right is the is the term that people use you do one thing for so long that's all you are that's all you can ever become you see it with inmates become institutionalize you see it military personnel professional athletes suffer from it tremendously. You know, you're a professional athlete. You start at four years old playing organized sports, 12, 13, you separate, you're put in a bubble, you're groomed, you know, then you go D1, then you go pro, and next thing you know, you're 24 or five years old. You've been going for 20 straight years. Your entire identity is encapsulated and your performance on a field, on a

cord on wherever and it's over and you don't know what to do the same thing carrying a gun for living like that's it and it's a pretty substantial indoctrination right i mean you you've experienced it you've seen it you you contracted for an extended period of time and you you you get to that point and it's all you know it's all you think you can know but there's there's a way out and you start with humbling yourself and you start from scratch. I mean, I remember when I first started speaking, I was horrible, it was horrible, and just reps and reps. And then I started to devise, when I was in Pakistan, I wrote my first adult book. And I took the core concept of that confidence, the self-confidence book, and I turned it into an adult book.

And I didn't know what I was doing. It was so funny, I'd reach out to my cousin who's this, you know, He's written six novels, you know, they turned one into a movie. You know, I mean, he's a brilliant guy's top guy at random. And I would call him and I'd be like, hey, man, I'm writing this thing in this book. It's like this cheesy self-help. And it'd be like, just write what you feel, figure it out, edit it, and then put it out and see what happens. And then adjust from there and do it again and do it again.

And I think it's the fear of starting over for people and that loss of identity because we spend so much time. we invest so much pain and suffering into cultivating the personality that we believe that it's fixed within us. And that fixed personality is seems it becomes almost a crutch, if you will. No, crutch is the wrong way. It becomes almost like maybe a guiding rod for us, right? You're holding on so tightly to this thing. And even if you don't recognize that you're, you're, you're, you're entrenched and you're not moving forward,

but it's still you have this identity that is, that has generated a value in yourself, a high degree of a value, right? If you're a Navy SEAL, that's an important identity. If you're an athlete, it's an important identity. If you are a lawyer or if you own a business, those are big identities. But when all of a sudden they're no longer viable

for the development or the growth or your momentum forward, you have to let go of that and you have to go wander the desert and that's the hard thing for people to do but that's how we grow that's how we grow in that pain that humility that's suffering and so that's what I recommend

I mean I've talked to dozens of guys like for you know I was one of the first guys out there doing it I remember I started my first podcast in 2013 right called Navy SEAL Radio and I was like one of the first guys out there doing it and I was speaking and started working with sports teams and guys would get out and they'd call me. I'm like, hey, Rutt, I think I want to

try the speaking thing. Like, how do you do it? And I'd spend as much time as I could with them trying to just explain what I did and how I did it. And it's not perfect. I mean, it wasn't great. Other guys have had a lot more success than I have, but it's really trying to coach them through that, that loss of self that they thought they needed forever in order to be able to create something new. And that's what I suggest to people, like there's, it's, we go through changes constantly and that's, changes the hardest aspect of life, right? But we also know, in particular us, the greatest lessons that we do learn, we learn the hard

way and so that's the only way that's the way that christ learned and taught us and that's the way we have to learn but you have to be humbled in that that suffering i want to bounce around a little bit here sure back when i found my faith and sidona after dan died you and johnna were there with me And at that time, that was not on my radar at all. You almost kind of pushed it on me. And at the time, I was, you know, pretty fresh out of psychedelics. It was really into energy and all this other shit. And I remember talking about frequencies.

Do you remember this conversation? I also remember where you almost punched me at lunch. by the way that we still have to address this other one we almost skipped over that portion but we'll get there okay but you had mentioned that something about when the sea was parted they used the the god all three god frequencies do you remember this can you explain that that was the first thing that anybody had ever told me that actually grabbed my attention and then fast forward two or three days and I had that experience up on the up on the vortex yeah maggie is the person who introduced me to that in my life uh at that time she was pretty pretty connected to native

of American culture, and if you understand anything about people that are ultra-connected to nature, that's what they're feeling, that's the sensation, right? The energy of a new dawn, of a lightning storm, a tornado, right? The static that comes with a hurricane or whatever it is, you feel all that, and that's energy, right? Those are those frequencies changing, and they're changing on a level that's, beyond our, most of the time, beyond our perceptions, right, beyond our senses. And so I think for me, the first time I had ever really understood is when she would put

her hands on me and heal me. And I was like, you know, it was amazing. It was under, like everything about me felt better. And I also remember as I got deeper and deeper into my face, I started to recognize that when you hear or read the different sermons and you think about that and the one I think for me that really stands out is when they were on the sea and the sea becomes tumultuous and they think they're going to drown and that their ship's going to sink and Peter and everybody's scared and what does Christ do he walks out on.

the water and he says come to me you know and so his whole energy was different right he was calm he was he was not allowing nature to distract him for what his mission was which was to instill a deeper faith in and in those men on that boat and what did you he asked peter to come out and to trust him that faith in him and he didn't he walked out on water and then and then he went back to that consciousness that human consciousness and i remember I forget who exactly introduced me to the God frequencies. And I think it was when I was in North Carolina. And we have some friends that have a beautiful mountain house out there,

really amazing people and been friends with them a long time. And they have a labyrinth on their property. and I remember one of the times when John and I went up there when we were first together and we had someone come in, you know, put us in the labyrinth and kind of read our energy and there's a vibration, everything has a vibration, right? Any living thing, there's energy moving, it's electricity. And I remember being introduced to that concept that God has his own particular energy and that's what shapes the universe.

And so if that energy is what comes from, through the word, right? And the word is what shape, right? God spoke and all was created. God spoke and we were created. God spoke, you know, and I think, you know, the metaphor of Adam and Eve in us, you know, wanting to know more or wanting to get away from that frequency

or that energy, you know, that's when that self-consciousness emerged and that shame. emerged. And then, you know, we left Eden, which was that purity of energy. And so that was the place. And in North Carolina is one of those energy vortexes, supposedly. And then Sedona, there's another one out there, too. And the idea is, like, there's certain places on the earth that vibrate more intensely than others. And there's, you know, maybe that's the earth emitting its own signal into the universe because the earth is connected to God and connected to the universe. And so if you can get in that, it can reshape and kind of reestablish the frequency

in you. And I remember, you know, we were so excited to go out with you guys and, you know, when you showed up, it was heavy and things were changing for you rapidly. And I just, Like, I was in a really good place because of Jonah. I mean, it was a little challenging, obviously, because of COVID and what had happened and all that. But I felt strong. And I remember, like, hey, man, remember once we left the restaurant, we were out on the thing. It's like, like, listen, you just have to give in to it. You have to be able to feel it and not question it and just open your heart to it.

And it'll hit you. And it'll seat itself in you. And I think, you know, that's what happened. You were now in the right time and space for it. You were ready for it. And it happened. Yeah. Let's move into that night that you almost killed me with a fucking dog.

I mean, I had had a suicide attempt maybe a couple months before then. called you you're my first call I mean what was that like the divorce was before we go to the divorce what was that like when I called you oh it was a gift

it was a real gift because a lot of guys don't call that shame of it they don't want to talk about it They don't want to expose that they're in that space, right? It's like I'm not strong and I'm breaking down and I don't know what to do. And I actually made an attempt and there's just shame in it. But you called and gave me the opportunity to come.

And it was like it was an honor to come over. And, you know, that was, I think, a real, a real, a real substantial, evolution for you and I in particular because it was like that's the trust like that's the thing I'd always once we went through the divorce part and all that like you were you know nobody like you'd done that for me you were there when I needed you and and and you not only were there just there like you were really there and so it's like you called me and I was going to be there for you. And that's how you build that another level of trust, right?

Everything's about trust, the whole thing, the whole thing. And if you get the opportunity to provide that to somebody, it changes the whole thing. It changes everything. Now moving forward into that night, I don't remember why it came over. you heard it I was half in the bag yeah

you had called and I was kind of like blew it off like I'm good man I'm not doing anything and yeah I remember coming over this is pre-Johnna

oh yeah this was in the midst of the divorce you handed me a letter and I read the letter I don't remember what it said but I remember I read it as

a goodbye letter to your daughters pretty much I remember looking at you I just slapped you in the face as hard as I could and told you to fucking snap out of it yeah yeah

and then I was enraged yeah we were both enraged yeah I think I about choked you out you you got on top of me and we're just, like, there was no have to taste. Like, I was in shock.

And then you just kept coming. And then I was like, all right, I, like, now you're going to feel my wrath. And then we moved outside. Remember that? Yeah, in the pool deck and the grass there. And that's where every pain, piece of pain, that I had felt from that loss. You know, and I really was believed that my kids were at stake and that I wasn't going to be able to be a father for them because it's just the nature of what I did and being on the road all the time. And I was worried about their situation and you were just like, we're going to fight through this.

I remember, like, you just, you're a lot stronger than I thought you were, and you're just, and then you start, like, poying with me, and you start playing with me. And I remember Gabe being there, like, almost like, hey, man, are you going to break this up? And he just sat there. And he's like, you're going to get a dose because you need a dose right now. And I just remember, like, everything I did, you could counter it or was just frustrated. couldn't think i couldn't like i was just um i was breaking down again like i was i couldn't put together i couldn't assemble a state of mind that made sense it was illogical it was irrational

i was angry i was i was afraid and i don't know how it happened but i remember we switched around and I got, I didn't, I think I fish-eyed you, a fish-hook you. The only thing I remember after that is you, on top of me with my arms pinned to the ground with your knees, and you had grabbed a dog bowl, a big fucking dog bowl. Yeah, Zulu's dog bowl. And you had it like this, getting ready to come down on my head, and I just remember thinking, well, this is how it ends. I get smashed in the face by a fucking,

dog bowl by my best friend and uh i think gave maybe have stepped in at that point yeah i don't know what ended it he came over and kind of like looked at me and and gab was not somebody i wanted to mess with it all um his silence was was frightening because you knew the pain he was in and and and he's he ended it and i you know i just you know you're up in that position and And you realize, like, that was the moment of clarity. Like, you weren't there, you were there to help me. And through some bizarre reasoning, like, you were helping me by beating on me. Like, we were getting this out.

We were, like, getting purging this pain that you and I were both suffering from. But we were purging it on each other. And it just was exhausting. And then I remember, it was, like, kind of snapping to. and again, shame. Like, my God, what am I doing? Why are we doing this? I love you.

You love me. And I think that was another big, huge transition for us. It's weird. It's like most people cultivate relationships in a slow, methodical, you know, give and take, this reciprocation of empathy in a meaningful way, but it's not the way we did.

I did it and it was always intense. But I think that's why the trust became what it is today. And there's nobody, you know, almost nobody I trust more than you other than Johnny. And because of those moments, because of what you've done for me, because of what you've done for my family, what you've done for my children, what you're doing for me right now. Like you just, that's what you seek, that's what we want. you still have that letter i think i do yeah are you going to watch this with your kids oh man if they ask me to what are you going to say to them when they see this part i don't know

because i i don't i don't know what they'll ask i don't know what they'll want to know you know these my my children are all brilliant you know and they're they've been through a lot both my biological children and and jonah's biological children have been through a lot and they're resilient and they're strong and they're intelligent and they're empathetic and they're beautiful and i i don't know if it's going to happen now or in a year or in 10 years, I don't know, but my hope is that they do watch it, and if they have questions, they want to sit down.

I mean, it's tough, man, because, you know, I have all this experience and all this life and all these different stories I've gone through, and I want so desperately to share with them everything I've learned in order to prepare them for their adventure, for their voyage, for their quest of trying to find out the ultimate answer to the two most significant questions we can ask ourselves, which is who am I and why am I here.

And so this is part of it. You know, my story is part of that. And our story is part of that. And these stories hopefully will not shape them, but inform them. and then they can begin to trust my intentions and what I've been trying to teach them, you know, for a long time now. You know, I mean, I've been with Jana coming up on eight years and, you know, Chloe was 10, and Gracie was, she was six.

And so a lot, almost a lot of their life. You know, I, you're doing a fantastic job. Thanks, man. You want to talk about fear. Like, that's the greatest fear there is, is that my children are going to have to experience a world that's really hard. and I pray that Christ is in their heart and I pray that they have the intestinal fortitude

to survive and to thrive in whatever adversity they face. And so that's what John and I are our main intention is to teach them. But it's hard. You know, it's hard. You know, I'm not perfect at at at all. I suffer from a lot of things.

I mean, it had gotten so bad for a few years that I finally, you know, had to start seeing somebody and how I could be a better parent, you know, and be more tolerant and be more patient. But, you know, now what we call operator syndrome, that's a real thing, man. And so trying to manage that and be an example of not of something to emulate, but something to learn from, you know, that's, that was, that's what I want. Well, I think when they do see this, because I'm sure they're going to watch it, I hope it's with you. But I guarantee you one thing, they'll have a greater understanding of who their

dad is and what his struggles are and why he is the way he is. I hope so. They will. I'm praying it. It happens for sure. How did you meet John? God's will. Was that a PTO beating or some shit, wasn't it?

No, it was crazy. so was at the school it's at the school yeah i i you know the the divorce came and went you know it was in the midst of what was going on at the at the nq at the with marcus and the wizard and that was devastating just trying to push through in the midst of that and my losing my family and that collapsing and i remember the divorce was finalized and and right before July 4th of 2017. And, you know, I was struggling financially. I'd kind of gotten waylaid with alimony

and, you know, got out-lawyered and was petrified that I wasn't going to be able to parent these two little girls by myself and just had a really significant breakdown. We went out to Colorado, and my parents had a place out there and just kind of melted down and my oldest was really struggling from the whole thing

and was very confused and she was young and didn't know what was going on and so a lot of like really challenging, worrisome behaviors were emerging out of her. I remember just like kind of collapsing and struggled, you know, and then started feeling a little bit better and I had a great support group that really helped during that time.

I mean, David Corden, was amazing for me, Max was amazing. Mark Palermo was incredible. Richie was amazing. You were good, you know, amazing women, shit. You were in it with me and had this great team. And my parents, my parents were unbelievable, unbelievable, amazing for me. And so it's like I got through it better than I'd ever gotten through anything, you know. college it was four years post teams it was three years of misery and then this it was it was relatively compact i mean it was about a year and a half of a pretty substantial misery and our relationship really began to struggle in 2013 14 worse 15 worse by 16 it was essentially over and you know she

wanted separation and divorce and then it was just so that summer came through the fall and I remember in the fall of 17 I had reached out to Maggie again and said hey Maggie can we do a sweat lodge and she had this remarkable guy named Jeff and had run sweat lodges and I had done some with her son a couple times before he ended up going through a ton of stuff going in the military going to buds and and actually it made it all the way to damn Nick and and so I asked Maggie hey can we go through this thing and she was wonderful through that as a support too and we did this this sweat lodge with my close friend lex mcman amazing amazing human being former marine you know runs a fight promotion

company south for just amazing and you know met lex and and and this other guy that i had met doing you know training case officers who we had become very close and he was just a remarkable guy. Four years in combat. Just really amazing guy. And kind of to back up, kind of my low point was as the relationship was collapsing. In the spring, Bruce cutting him had drank himself to death. And that was devastating because I couldn't pull him out. I tried multiple times. We could not pull him out of that and it was his funeral in October and I'd gone to his funeral at Arlington spoke at it and went ahead lunch and then went over the Naval Academy for Brian Hokes funeral who was in 2009 then went over and was killed as a PMCO at the agency

was shot as a sniper and so went over there and I reconnected with this friend and he was a mess I was a mess and so fast forward the next fall I reached out and say hey man

I want to come down and go do this sweat lodge I'm really kind of broken and I want to know and Lex was going through a ton

himself and I was like you want to do it so we went in this sweat lodge up in Lake Worth and it was amazing

and it was the probably third one I don't but this one it's called Warriors Lodge and so there's 21 lava rocks

they heat up and they put in this thing and you get in, and this guy leads through these prayers, these four-sequence prayers, and you tie these prayer beads, and you know, and you tie 100 pieces of tobacco in this red thing on this string, and then you put it above you. And, man, I tied 100 prayers, and they were like, and almost all of them were like, God, please just let me find somebody I can love, who will love me for who I am.

And help me help my children and help me get through this. we went into this thing and by like hour two and a half three and my face is in the dirt and it's so high feels like my eyes are melting and my skin's melting and this guy's saying these prayers and I just break and I was like I got to get out I got to get out I got to get out and so I got out and my face is in the rain and I was in the mud and I'm sitting there and I'm just looking up at the sky and I'm just I'm broken and Lex I look over is next to me in the mud

and then my other friend is next to him and then there's Maggie just sitting above us just looking at us and I remember us just like and she kind of smiled at me and it was like you're going to be okay now

and after that I was like I gotta change my mentality of this I have to assess this differently I have to look at life differently. I have to find, I have to be a better man. I can't keep carrying this stuff on and on and force other people to experience it, most especially these two little girls who need a father now and a broken home. And so I was like, all right, kind of pull myself together and two months, three months later, I was supposed to go speak at this Broward County

sheriff's thing. They canceled last minute. I was like, whatever, and called another friend and who was participated at the girl's school. And it's like, hey, do you want to go to this thing? I was like, I was first, I was like, hey, you got a spot at your table. He's like, yeah, come do it. So I was like, cool. And so show up and met her. She like, she was, I got to the table early and I was just like, why am I here? What am I doing? And there was a single, everybody sat down a single seat. And this woman walked up and sat down, it was Johnna, and I was just like, oh my God. And I was, like, I don't know, it was like, Thunder Bowl hit me and worked up enough courage at one point to go over and fill

my moves. And mind you, I had been married for eight years, nine years. And I'm wearing jean, it was denim and diamonds or something. I'm wearing jeans and a jean shirt and a fedora and I had the long hair, and I'm like, and I'm like, and I sit down next to her, and I start, and she just comes back, and it's like, you know, essentially like, who do you think you are? None of this is going to work with me. I don't know what you're doing. I just kept going, and she just was a snapperhead back, and I was like, oh, my God. And we ended up going to an after place together afterwards, and it was, it was, it was,

was like, it was this, this, like, oh, my God, this person. And the way she smiled and her eyes just, like, they ripped through me. And I, the person we were with, she was like, you know, why don't you go home with him? Because, like, she had babysitters. And I, like, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's like, I don't know. It's like, please, like, I'm good. She's like, he's fine. Go ahead. And so, drove her back. And we're sitting outside, and I said, hey, is it cool? Can I have your number? I would really like to, you know, see you again.

And she's like, yeah, all right. So she gives it to me. And she got out and ran in. And that was, and I went back that night. And she had left her jacket. She made this cool jacket with her name Strollo on the back in sequence. And I was like, I sent her a picture of the jacket. And I say, now you're definitely have to see me.

Otherwise, I'm going to hold your jacket hostage. Dumb choice of words, right? Like, first text after this, like horrible, but that's me. I was an idiot, right? And she's like hostage. She's like, psycho. And I was like, no, no, no, no. And she wrote that.

She wouldn't call me, but that's essentially what she was implying in her return text. And so that next night, I called her and we talked. for three hours. And then I left that week to go on the road. I had a couple speaking engagements. And every night we talked for three to four hours. Following week, she agreed to go to this wine tasting. We went.

And it was just, oh, my God. And it happened quickly. And we were just talking. And I've never met anybody that could talk and was interested in what my thoughts and the way I felt. And, you know, and it wasn't, she didn't want to hear about me. working with the Red Sox or having a big podcast or being a speaker or writing books or

she didn't give a shit about any of that stuff and that she wanted to know who I was and what I had gone through and I was just blown away by her but there was this mystery there was something deeper that she wasn't sharing with me and she was a private person and and you know And I remember it was right after the Parkland shooting. And I had done an event where I had spoken to a guy who was a financial advisor, his clients. And then he had kids that go. And he reached out. He said, hey, would you come and speak to these five kids who were at Parkland

and try and help them through this and explain it to? And I was like, absolutely. And I said, hey, would you like to come with them? me to see this is what I really am passionate about doing and she's like okay and we went to this thing and I delivered the speech and we left and she was quiet and I was like oh oh what's going on you know did I say something does she not dig this what am I doing wrong and we went back to my house and we went in to my bedroom and we sat down and she's like there's something I have to share with you and I was like what is it and she's like I want to let you know that

my husband committed suicide and that's why i'm a widow and i don't know what it was about that i think you know some people would be intimidated by that or be how do i react to that how do i over measure up you know how do i replace that what do i do i do and you know that's all a selfish way to look But I, for me, it was a signified her strength that she was a person that could lose this amazing human being, you know, in the prime of his life. He was, you know, an assistant and personal trainer for one of the largest rock stars in the world. And he just, through whatever reasons or whatever unknown, he just kind of went through this. collapse while she was pregnant with their second child with Gracie. And she spoke with just not of anger or frustration or anything about him.

But she spoke about reverence of the experience and what she'd learn. And so, you know, she became a widow at 29 years old with a four-year-old and a four-month-old, two-month-old. and she didn't quit, she didn't break down. I mean, obviously, it was debilitating and unbelievably traumatic and every way, and every sense of the word. But she kept fighting, and she fought for those girls. And those two girls are just amazing human beings. They're such beautiful children and they're gracious and Chloe is like me.

It's crazy. She's so much like me, but she's not even my blood dog, but she has, you know, got big energy and she's athletic and she's, you know, she's hilarious and she's got this beautiful laugh and she walks in the room and lights up. And then Gracie is just, she's just been touched, you know. And I'll never forget the first time we came together because we kept it a secret for months. We didn't want to deal with what would happen at the school or we didn't want to, you know, because my divorce was already kind of known around the school. And it was, you know, it was, you know, I was the single guy.

It was the, you know, whatever people describe you as, you know. and our first time I met the girls with her and we went over to that same guy's house and it was Easter and it was like and instantaneously falling in love with those children and her and it was like wow this is good it's going to work and I had already like

this one was like 11 days And I knew I wanted to be with her. Like, it was just, it was, you know, if, you know, it's, you don't want to say, you know, the old thing, my soulmate, but it was deeper than that. I found somebody whose soul was intact and was honest. She's the most honest person I've ever met my life. And I needed that. I needed truth. I needed truth, desperate.

Real. Yeah. And so that began our relationship, and it came out of the recognition that our tragedies were not going to define us. And she proved that. I remember the first time I met her, Katie and I had dinner with you guys. And I remember the conversation after it was for the first time in my life, I'd seen you completely content and being yourself.

Yeah. Your true self. That's right. Yeah. She taught me how to do that because she does that. Every day she is who she is. And I, you know, we all, we want to be that, we aspire, we have ambition for that, but for whatever reasons, whatever experiences, whatever trauma we carry or whatever it is, it's difficult to manifest. that under duress and extenuating circumstances, but that's who she is, and she allowed me

to discover that in myself. How did you propose to her? About a year later. Yeah, that was February 10th, and then the following year, and what's nuts is the anniversary of Tony's death is like a day later is when I... to marry me and so many just other interesting things about those times Scotty's death Dave Hall had a funeral around those times and and and it never faced her never like our first trip we took together was to Scotty's funeral and like that was right around the same time

And, yeah, and it was amazing. We did it up my parents' house, and all the girls were around, and I got down on the knee, and I asked her to marry me. And it was unbelievable. She said, yeah. And I thought I'd never get married again. I thought there was no way I could do it. I couldn't go through that again.

And she made me want to. she made me want it to be a better man not just for her but for her children for my children and for our family yeah it's worked out great so far yeah i mean she's taught me that you're not defined by your failures uh you're defined by what you do every day you're not defined by the insecurities you feel you're defined by how you persevere in them you're not defined by your shortfalls your ineptitude your lack of intelligence

your whatever you think are your shortfalls that you're not defined by how you make other people feel and doing the right thing and that's where she comes from you know her parents that's who they are That's what they live up to And her brothers and their families And that's

You know That's where she comes from She comes from Maine And You know A teeny little town up in And Jay Main Well Dave

We're wrapping up the interview here Yeah Yeah, anything to say to your kids? Yeah, I do. Don't be afraid of the unknown. You know, that wisdom that my dad gave me, be a Renaissance man, be Renaissance women. Seek out the challenges, the hard things. You know, live, figure out what you are inspired by, what your passion, what your meaning is,

and where you want to go and, you know, embrace your fear and have self-confidence and seek out great teams. And when you do that, you'll find your purpose and then live openly with purpose in your heart. and that's an important thing how to do that that's what i've that's what all of my insecurities have led me to want to do to teach other people how to do that right that's what it's inspired me to continue with frog logic and to work with the people i work with and to do what i do and in the hopes that my children will say hey this this is something that works and it's not coming coming from a made-up place. I got to read some motivational book and be like,

oh, this sounds cool. I'm going to try and do this. It all comes from, you know, the life I've lived and the life of my friends and what I've learned from you all and, you know, from the Dancerillos and, you know, the other people in my life that are so impactful.

you have anything you want to say to jonah yeah i love you and thank you um i would not be i would not have found i would have not have rediscovered who i am without her um i would not be able to do what i do i would not have the confidence to come in here and sit across from you and share as extensively as I have without her. She taught me how to communicate again. She taught me how to have strength again, what mattered with strength. She taught me how to love again.

She taught me how to want to heal. I don't want to figure out how to improve and get better. You know, she helps me in every way. shape or form. You know, she helps me run the business. She helps me run my business with, you know, the asset management firm I work with. She helps me write curriculum. She helps me everything in every aspect of my life. She's my ultimate best friend. She's my, I love her. She's my, she's, and I think what I want to tell her is that, you know, I will always be with her. I will always love her.

I will always try and be better for her and that I'm not going anywhere and that I'm in. She, she gave me something when we first. first started together when she knew, when she was willing to take the risk with me. And I promised her I would protect that with everything that I have it as man. And I just want her to reinforce that, that I'm going to do that. She's really brought out the best in you, man. Yeah, thank you.

You're a lucky guy. I feel like it, yeah. Good. Well, Dave, I can't wait to see. see what the David Brotherford show brings in the future and for anybody watching it's awesome content so but most of all man thank you for being my friend thank you for introducing me to my wife thank you for marrying us thank you for being a mentor and I love you dude I love you too you're welcome thank you for being my best friend and thank you for not be

beating the hell out of me too bad and thank you for sharing this space that you've created that's making so much good in the world and and for inspiring me to keep trying to do the same because that's that's worth it that's worth everything we've gone through is to is to give back to share what we've learned you'll always be my best friend man thank you say yeah it's part sports we have football on the brain part pop culture

Dennis Larry true or false you refuse to wear a glove with Mickey Mantle's signature on it through the movie the sandline The Red Sox blood, the bruised blood, they run deep. Add in the best celebrity interviews. Robert De Niro here on the Rich Eisen Show. How are you, sir? Just got over a 24-hour virus.

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