Shawn Ryan Show - #96 Col. John Alexander - Military Applications of the Paranormal

Episode Date: February 12, 2024

Col. John Alexander is a former Army Special Forces Commander with an impeccable career in leadership across multiple agencies and programs within the U.S. intelligence community. Alexander lead Special Forces teams as an Officer during the Vietnam War. He would later serve as the Chief of Human Technology at INSCOM and Army Inspector General. Alexander's work inspired and was heavily featured in the book and adapted film "Men Who Stare at Goats." He is widely credited with leading the way in researching non-lethal weapons and military applications of the paranormal. In this episode, Alexander recounts his experience in Vietnam and the brutality of jungle warfare. Through his experience, he began to see the power of coincidence and intuition. This led him to pursue greater knowledge via the Army Intelligence and Security Command. It was there he helped transform the United State's approach to the paranormal. Post retirement, Alexander became the Program Manager for Non-Lethal Defense at Los Alamos National Laboratory–the same lab responsible for the creation of the Atomic Bomb. Today, he is a successful Author and continues his work as a researcher. Shawn Ryan Show Sponsors: https://lairdsuperfood.com - USE CODE "SRS" https://shopify.com/shawn https://babbel.com/srs https://meetfabric.com/shawn https://moinkbox.com/shawn https://hvmn.com/shawn https://ShawnLikesGold.com | 855-936-GOLD #goldcopartner Col. John Alexander Links: Books - https://b.link/b18rv35v Please leave us a review on Apple & Spotify Podcasts. Vigilance Elite/Shawn Ryan Links: Website | Patreon | TikTok | Instagram | Download Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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or visit connexontario.ca. Please play responsibly. Hey everybody, I just want to kick this introduction off and say thank you. You have helped me develop what I consider my gift. Telling these stories, bringing light to darkness, and it's just been a real honor to be able to do it. And if it wasn't for your encouragement, I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't have the opportunity that I've been given. And I love you guys for that, so thank you.

Now to the episode. This episode is a Special Forces Officer. He's a retired colonel, a Vietnam veteran, and was on the forefront of developing some cutting edge, non-lethal weapons. This is a mind-bending episode. It's fascinating. I'll leave it at that. Ladies and gentlemen, without further ado, please welcome Colonel John Alexander to the Sean Ryan show. Please head over to Apple and Spotify. leave us a review, type in just one word that really helps the show out. Like, comment, subscribe to the YouTube channel,

and that is all. Much love to you guys. Enjoy the show. And just to reiterate, thank you. There is nothing else in the world I would rather be doing than what I'm doing right now. And that's because of you guys. Thank you. Colonel John Alexander, welcome to the show. Glad to be here, I think. It is an honor to have you here. Where's the honors goes? It'll be good. We've been trying to reach you for

probably at least a year and then finally got in contact with you and we've had several phone conversations and I just want to say I'm really it's a honor to meet you and I'm happy that you're here sitting across from me and this has been,

this has been a dream interview for me, so thank you. Well it's been, I've watched a number of your shows and I'm certainly impressed with the caliber of folks that you've had on. Well I appreciate that very much. We are very particular about who we bring on. So thank you. But so, John, I would like to do a life story on you starting from childhood. I can see the cringe factor, but I promise it won't be that painful. But I would like to start with childhood, get through your impeccable service

as a Army Special Forces and Intelligence Officer. And then I would like to get into all of the things that you've explored, both while in Army Intelligence and what you continue to do with paranormal activity, shamanism, UFO, all that kind of stuff. I mean, you are one of the leading people in that space. And so it's something that I've been drinking from the fire hose on, learning about, and I'm about as green as it gets.

But it's fascinating stuff. And I think it's very important. So if you don't mind, I'd like to give you an introduction here. Okay. It's a pretty long one. But Colonel John Alexander, your retired US Army Special Forces of 32 years,

commanded Army Special Forces teams at Vietnam and Southeast Asia, Inspector General for the Department of Army, Chief of Human Technology at Army Intelligence Command, Manager of Technology Integration at Army Materials Command, Director of Advanced Concepts at Army Laboratory Command, well known for your leading role

advocating the Army's development of non-lethal weapons and military applications of the paranormal. You had a hand in setting up the Army's remote viewing program, later known as the Stargate Program, featured prominently in both the movie and the book, The Men Who Stare at Goats, worked directly for General Stubblebine when the General resigned directly for General Stubblebine when the General resigned Army Intelligence, excuse me, redesigned Army Intelligence back in the early 80s. You worked with Bob Bigelow, aerospace billionaire in his investigations at Skimwalker Ranch and his other properties, authored several books on the future of warfare, UFO, UAP activity, and paranormal activity as it was studied by the United States Army, your latest book, Reality Denied, which is right next to you

there. PhD in behavioral sciences. You are considered a legend in the anomalous activity world and you have been to over 100 countries according to Joe researching paranormal activity throughout the world and once again, an honor, a real honor. So I know you have a ton of knowledge that I want to tap into. So thank you again. And before we get started, everybody gets a gift. Any guesses? Not so far. All right, we'll open it up. Oh, what do you got in there? A little something for the ride home. Go-Me Bears. Vigilance Elite Go-Me Bears.

Thank you. Those are legal in all 50 states. So Colonel, before we kick this off, I have a Patreon subscription service and they are our biggest supporters. They're the reason I'm here and you're here and that we're able to do this. And so I give them an opportunity to ask the guest a question. This is from Steve Rubio. Did your time and experiences at Skimwalker Ranch confirm or disprove any assumptions

or beliefs you had about reality, spirituality, etc.? Well, we limited the Skinwalker. I mean, that's one of the problems. We didn't spend time. I was with Bob the day he bought the ranch. And actually it was the first one to spend the night up there and the most anomalous thing that happened was the mosquito bites at that time. Having said that, it's a very, very strange place. And we can go into some

of the things that go on. I know you had Brendan Fugalon, his owner, and no him. Is it confirm or deny? I'll tell you the last paragraph of my UFO book ends, I should say, first paragraph is UFOs are real and it ends that says whatever this is it is more complex than you can possibly imagine. One of the takeaways from the ranch is something that I call a precognitive sentient phenomenon. And the point there is that there's an it and I do not know how to describe an it,

but it is in control. We never were in control. And when I said precognitive, I meant by that, it seemed to know how we would respond before an event occurred. And it's certainly sentient, smart, and certainly phenomenological. And I know Brandon has picked up on pre-cognitive sentiment and talks about it now. And it's, I don't think it's any single thing. It is terribly, terribly complex. I gave you a specific example.

There's one where George Annette was, we had a DMV on staff, but this was, we're jumping to NIDS now, National Institute for Discovery Science. And Terry German, who owned the ranch, went out and it was calving season and he goes out. By the way, if it's a topography, they've seen the TV series and it's generally perfectly flat when the escarpment to the north goes up onto the Mesa. But the calving season, he runs out and he finds a newborn calf and they tag it and they wait a tag to associate it with the mother waves it, drives across.

By the way, it's about 10 o'clock in the morning, so bright sunny day. Clear visibility is the point. He finds another newborn, tags it, weighs it, and he comes back. The last time we're talking about 45 minutes, Caff one's dead. Not only is it dead, it's eviscerated and exsanguinated, and there of the bones have been taken out and missing, and there's a nick on one of the bones, the ear. The ears were sliced off. Looks like a laser cut.

I mean, it was that sort of tag that was gone. So everybody says, pick an exsanguination, all the blood went into the ground. So I got ahold of the charge, and I had them go to a slaughterhouse. Everybody says, so pick an exagglination, all the blood went into the ground. So I got ahold of the jargon, had them go to a slaughterhouse, and get some blood and go to another place, pour it on the ground,

and you come back weeks later, you say, you know, blood was poured on the ground here. So the idea that it went in, the best guess from the science board was whatever happened, by the way the thing was weighing 60 pounds, it's now between 20 and 30 pounds, meaning lots and lots of physical material has gone from the calf. You go where? And consideration was probably happened someplace else. And you go, how could that have happened? Again, this broad daylight,

we looked at all how predators kill, and none of them do anything like was described. So there you'd probably shoot rustlers, not to mention this broad daylight and something. So the point was it totally made no sense whatsoever in the logic as we know it. And so the it again seemed to know what we would do once that happened. And that's one... And the other issue was it kept morphing.

And particularly with cameras, there are things that said we'd stare it would know where we would place it we had it even then it was monitored 24-7 and we'd go through the thing and oh instead of here it just off camera or then there were incidents that happened that should have been on camera and nothing is there. And see we had cameras on poles that were staring to the west. There's two cameras and then another two cameras in front of it. So the first two cameras are visible from the rear. Now I'll give you an example. The cameras are around top of 20-foot poles.

They come down, got about half a roll of duct tape connecting them to there. There's a PVC unit that takes it down into the ground and the wires go back to what's now called the command center. It was just double wides at the time but everything's being recorded. What there is we know exactly when it stopped recording and what you find is that the wires are pulled out of this camera that's 20 feet up, not seen there. There's about a three-foot chunk of the wire that's just missing, been totally cut. PVC has been pulled loose. Now coincidentally, at the time it happened,

the cattle just happened to be around that part of the ranch that was there. Point there is anytime somebody would approach, they'd get spooked and would go running off. No visibility of anything that happened. There's there, all of this stuff happens. Camera, the camera's not here. Do not see anything on it. But all of these things physically happened, should have been captured but weren't.

So it's in control. Is there any other way to describe it? Would a non-human intelligence be a good description? Non-human intelligence normally is associated with kind of like an alien being or something, not a super normal force that has, you know, is controlling everything. Okay. So, it's certainly non-human and certainly intelligent, but yeah, most people think of it, they tend to think of what's being discussed with the Greshnaw that we have an alien body and they're non-human and maybe smarter than us and all that.

But this is more in the controlling force category that... Darrell Bock Bigger than anything we could even think of. Sorry? Darrell Bock Bigger than anything we could even think of. Sorry? Bigger than anything we could even imagine. Yeah, well, that's what I said in the thing. It says probably more complex than we can imagine. Do you think... Do you think we'll ever be able to grasp the magnitude of...

of... and the complexity of what that is, what it is? The short answer would be no. And again, it gets to what you... Because we can imagine a lot. You can imagine all kinds of things in various venues. And suspect that it's beyond our capability to imagine. Of course, that's highly speculative,

but having said this, and not just as skinwalker, but around the thing that you've seen around the world, it gets, and the word that comes to mind will probably discuss a number of times as inappable, because that pops up in the meaning, can't be described and in various phenomena we can discuss that's one of the key words that come up that I just don't have words to describe it. Interesting. I cannot wait to dive into this stuff but but right now let's start with your life story. Where did you grow up?

I was born. No, I technically was born in Manhattan, moved to New Jersey, and by the time I don't remember any of that, by the time I was two, we moved to La Crosse, Wisconsin. I basically grew up there. Oh, good. Hockey player? That's right. You a hockey player?

No. New York to Wisconsin, no hockey? No, no hockey ever. I wasn't very good at skating, in fact. Ankle, I tried ice skating a few times, but it was not one of my favorite sports. What did you like to do as a kid? Well, I was interested in weird stuff kind of all along.

Do you remember that? When you say you were into weird stuff as a young man and as a child, can you be a little more specific? Well, I was interested in space. Space is a program. We know it generally not a hot topic at the time, but the potential for, but basically from a physical perspective, you know, I mean, the moon was a long ways off at that time. And yeah, I was still already thinking as a young child, we can go there.

No kidding. What kind of space exploration had we accomplished? None. Nothing. No, remember, we don't have missiles at this juncture. I mean, it's much later before even the beginning of a missile program, let alone one that is going to venture out there.

But you know where I remember Collier's magazine, and so that's where people were talking about, you see pictures of, but this was definitely pie in the sky types of things that you and what caught your interest in space I don't know just was just playing curiosity there's no particular interest and in all of these things what I talk about I says there was no epiphany on any of these. It was more like steering an aircraft carrier, big, slow turns as opposed to, you know, turn on a dime or something.

Yeah. Were you into paranormal activity? Not particularly at that juncture. No. What caught your interest in the military? Special forces. Now, I graduated high school. I had a chance to go to college and went for a year and I went to Beloit College for a year. It wasn't terribly exciting. I had a scholarship, and I was reading these articles about special forces. Now, at this time, there was only the 77th, which it was then, it's become the 17th group.

I remember seeing some articles and said, oh, that sounds interesting. And so I went, I actually had not worn my mother. And they thought I was gonna go back for the Southmoor year. And I came in one day and said, oh, by the way, tomorrow morning, catching a bus. And the, turns out the recruiters had lied to me. What a shock I suppose.

What a thought. Yeah. No, I went in and I said, I want to join Special Forces. So I just signed up for Airborne. And I said, well, I want an Israel's nest after this. All you have to do is sign a thing and you can get reassigned there. I'm dumb enough to believe them at the time, not understanding the system. So went off and did basic training and then went to the 101st Airborne, which had just

been reactivated. After World War II, it was deactivated. And then 187, the 508, 503, the two regimental combat teams came together and they were gonna activate something called the Pentomic Division. And that was a totally new concept at the time. You also gotta remember that nuclear weapons are just coming in.

We're talking 1956. So yeah, it was a totally different concept how we were gonna fight in the future. And interesting, shortly, the first or second, but he recursed. General Westmoreland was the division commander, and I ended up with things as a medic. Went through medic training, was with 326 Medical Company, which is still the medical company for the 101st, but it also meant that our company commander is a

Lieutenant Colonel because all of the doctors in the division are under him. So that was kind of an unusual structure and he liked to jump. And that led to us getting into Rangers when I went to Ranger School in 58, we had more Rangers than the medical company than the industry company. But remember the theory for the Rangers at the time, Rangers had been totally deactivated as well and it was out of Korea.

And that was, partially because of casualty rates, they felt were too high, but they wanted to, you know, kind of spread the wealth across the company. In addition, it's the only way you're gonna get promoted, because after the war, I mean, promotion rates are, you know, tremendously slowing down, and you're going, but if you graduated from Ranger School,

you automatically made E-5. So that's how I made E-5. And then when I came back, they sent me to the 101st Airborne School as an instructor. So here I am. What, 20 years old as an instructor, we were in the black hats and screaming at folks and all that. Did you enjoy that?

Yeah, it was interesting, of course. There was an interesting dynamic between us and the more seasoned instructors. I mean, we were really green. Yeah. And actually got, well, the ground training in the CEO, kind of mentioned it, was a guy named Henry Slomansky. He's one we might want to discuss, but he had a hangman's MOS and had actually been involved

in hanging the Japanese war criminals. And so we're talking about, you know. He was hanging Japanese war criminals. And so we're talking about, you know. He was hanging Japanese war criminals. He had, yes. Wow. And he had been assigned in Japan. He had also become, he had taken up karate and became the commissioner for the Western Hemisphere

for the Japanese karate. His big deal was there had a two-day contest and he beat 119 Japanese to become the national champion in his field. If you were alive pre-World War II, how old are you now, if you don't mind me asking? Yeah, I'm 86.

86. My question is, I had an interesting conversation yesterday and we talked about the first time a Tic Tac appeared. And it sounds like the first time that we identified a Tic Tac was when we tested the nuclear bomb. Oh, that's what 43. For you.

Do you remember that? That was not a, that being, well, no, because it was totally secret. And as we may get into, Edward Teller was a personal friend, and we actually discussed these things. And as he pointed out, he says, you know, millions of people didn't know and only this handful of people at Trinity site, of course, at Los Alamos building it. Most of the people involved didn't even know what they were doing. They all had little compartmented pieces of the project. And under Oppenheimer, I'm sure people have seen the movie on that now. Teller is in it as well. They became adversaries but did not get along. See Teller wanted to go straight to fusion and the atomic bomb was a fission bomb and fusion

jumped it up in order of magnitude. So they, like I say, basically Hiroshima, until that went off, almost nobody knew about it other than a few people in northern New Mexico. That area was because of the size of the blast at the time. But this was not something that was carried in the public until Hiroshima and Nagasaki. What was the response from regular American citizens when that bomb was dropped? Until the follow up, probably not much. Again, I have no idea what it is. I mean, do not have our understanding of nuclear energy at the time.

I mean, it's not even a concept for 99% of the people. That it led quickly to the end of the war. Interestingly, my second career, of course, is Los Alamos. And I was there at the 50th anniversary of when the bomb was going to be up. And they happened to send me to Washington to study some of the documents that came out. I remember the casualties that that have been taken in the island hopping, if you will, pretty horrendous. And this in three days changed everything, where they had capitulated. What most don't know, and I actually read the documents

on this in the National Archives, to invade Honshu proper, called for nine atomic bombs in preparation. By the way, the physical invasion was fully an order of magnitude more difficult than Normandy, just over all of the logistics and the distances that would be involved and what was going to be required to get there, hence using it. Of course, the problem was, didn't have them. The other thing that came up quite a bit was, you know, why didn't we do a demonstration, the more human...

And that was thought about. And the real answer was, they weren't sure it would go off. And nothing could be worse than to have a demonstration. And nothing happened. Good point, good point. When did Vietnam come about? Where were you in your army career? Well, that's much later than I got out for a short period.

And actually joined SF from the outside with a new unit was being formed. And we had friends who, you see Vietnam was going on for a while. Most people don't know that we had folks at DnB and Phu. And so, you know, that was like, that's the French war and all of that. And then of course, Kennedy coming along and deciding that we're going to interject with a few advisors, mostly CIA initially,

and then SF started there. And, you know, it was sort of evolved. Well, the whole domino theory was critical at that time. Now, this was that Vietnam falls and Cambodia and Thailand and all that, the communists are going to roll up Southeast Asia. So that was kind of the rationale for getting involved at the level that we did. Okay. What was your opinion of the war? I know it was a very unpopular war. Did it start that way?

Still at what point? Did it start as an unpopular war? did it start that way? Well at what point? Did it start as an unpopular war? No, not at all. Well, it started at very low key and nobody knew about it. And I will say my opinion changed over time. Specifically when I got there, I kind of

Considered myself a mercenary if you'll cuz mean this is where you get promotions so and I had been in Thailand before that ITT to Vietnam Oh, I just gets into messy stuff. Yeah, I was convinced that if we switched sides, we could have wiped that out in 90 days because the other side wanted to win. Ours really, ours being, you know, the Vietnamese per se,

we're not that interested. My counterpart was definitely a crook. Now, when I get to Vietnam, when we're talking all of 68, had an A-team on the Cambodian border in the Seven Mountains area. So we were a big A team. We had about, it varied from 15 to 18 people, but many of them were not, or a few of them at least, were not SF per se. But I had six companies. Sorry, where did the guys that were not SF come from?

We had a flashy unit, which was literally a searchlight unit. Okay. That would, because from looking out across, we were just short of the Cambodian border, but all rice paddies there, but in the mountains looking out, and you could put IR infrared beams out there and watch at night night and exactly why they were there. I have no idea. But organizationally, I had six companies of, well, there were 800 people that I was paying.

And another 400 that were op cons. So I was at a unit of, you know, 1200 years old. Holy cow. And so, yeah, because the American military thought we were squad leaders, you know, because we only had, you know, we're only 12 people on the team, but had, you know, pretty big units.

Also, one of the problems was that I had a Vietnamese counterpart who was a major, terribly corrupt, and they were selling, if you had a Sidge card, the GIDG card, then you couldn't be drafted into the Vietnamese Army. So they would sell these, and so these were ghosts, basically, and would show up for pay the only time you actually saw them. Having said that, we had companies that actually were there on a day-to-day basis. So would you say that the Vietnamese people were very unmotivated?

So would you say that the Vietnamese people were very unmotivated? Well, it depends. Now, ethnically, by the way, one of the things I also wanted to say about Vietnam is there's thousands and thousands of different stories because where you were and when you were there changed dramatically. when you were there changed dramatically. Okay. My adversaries in my area were, you know, Viet Cong, which is very different from the folks fighting in the north who were fighting NVA. And that changes over time. We, yeah, well my very first operation that I remember kind of got my attention

there was a small hill out to the north of us and Ethnically, I had three companies that were predominantly Vietnamese and three companies were Cambodians We had KKK literally Khmer Kumpa Chai Krum Where and that was the majority and the area was We had, there were KKK, literally, Kamerikonpochai Krumm. And that was the majority and the area was ethnically Cambodian.

So we went out and I went with a company that was going, you know, to the East and this way and we were supposed to do kind of a simple pincer mission. It was a walk in the sun, but the group I was with got there first and says, okay, now we die, we, we, we have, gonna ambush the Vietnamese and going, oh, shit, that's my own company and they want to, you know, shoot each other up. So that was kind of a wake up call very quickly. Reports say 60% of US pork production comes from one company owned by the Chinese and

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There were three major ones in my area, New Ecom, New Egi, and New Ecodot, or the first New Ecodot was infamous. And when I took over the camp, we had a company stationed on the top of each of New Ecom and New Egi. Now the reality was we owned the bottom, we owned the top, and they owned the middle in between. It was so well defined that you could go off and you say, if I walked on this patio, say, if I step over here, I'm going to get shot at. You could call artillery from memory because you knew exactly where it was when it was going to start.

And you also had the Ho Chi Minh trail ended just to the west. I mean, you could literally see it come down. They knew the biggest thing we had was a four-duice mortar and a Chi Lang, which was a Vietnamese base, urban, and they had two 1.5.5s there. But calling fire from them, which we did on occasion, was quite intricate. And what was interesting is when you went out flying, there was a path, maybe 50 meters beyond the range of our four deuce. I mean, they knew exactly how far we could shoot. You're just, you know, a beaten path coming down into the mountains because they could,

particularly down in New Ecoto, was very much a BC stronghold. Of course, you want to get the infamous TEP. I mean, that was off. Yeah, let's do it. Let's get into it. Well, my experience with TEP, one of the big issues that we talked about, I think, is intelligence, because my

experience was intelligence went one way up. You know, never got anything. And so this was a truce, it was called. And up until that time, the truces had always been observed. They'd done it before. When you fly recon missions after that, you'd see a whole lot of lights that you don't see during the fighting areas where we'd bomb. And so we had admin work to do, literally doing paperwork. So I flew back to Canto, which was the company headquarters, and went in and was getting ready.

Actually, they had a sidelight, but they sunk a sandpan in the river off of Canto. And I was a diver, and they wanted somebody to go dive on it. We were getting ready to do that because they thought it was carrying arms and They got too late and they will go tomorrow went back in and Back to the camp And we were hot bunking So it went to bed. I remember the S2 coming and say well there's some strange units in the area

It was not a tonight's tonight watch, watch out, you know, any kind of serious warning. Went to bed, woke up, and there's green tracers going by the window. You go, oh shit, that means they're in here. Yeah. You know, they use green tracers as ours were all red. So it was a no good, very bad night. Basically, what had happened was Special Forces was one of the first teams in the area on the airstrip by Canto, and so things had moved out from there. So we were actually damn near in the center, surrounded by American units. Unfortunately, three young troops who were out on the perimeter had gone to sleep and

got their throat slit because they were all asleep. And what happened was there was a lieutenant who was going out to check the guard. And damn, the fee doesn't run into them on the airstrip and calls in, and then the fight starts from there. And a lot of their folks got dead that night. I mean, they were able to bring in, reinforce it. My point was we had no idea that was coming. And I'm listening on the radio

as all over the country, town after town and the cities and capitals are falling and you're going, my thought, quite frankly, was, this is Korea all over again. China has entered the war. How could we see that big invasion that had no preparation for? Now it turns out, I didn't learn until,

I think it was a 60 minute special or something that came up, that Saigon knew. And there were American units that had been alerted. We had no idea it was coming, and everything in the whole district was lost. At that time, I had a B team at Chow Duck. And this is where Drew Dex actually got a Medal of Honor because there were people that were downtown. A big deal there were, we had nurses downtown.

Well, the B team commander would not allow anybody to leave the compound. Well, Drew was working with Phoenix, and he said, screw you. I work for the agency, and he went out, and that's a whole story worth learning in. But they went out and found the nurses downtown, saved them and brought them back. But everything except the compound was under, and the same thing was true kind of across the area. In our area, you know, the Delta there, the problem was they had been ordered to attack and didn't want to. But, you know, Ho Chi Minh was calling a thing. They had no plan for success. So after a while we got this. Now what do we do? And it went back into the mountains and back

across the border in the Cambodia. Kind of went down. And one of the things I had done though is watching this, I called and I said, let's pull one of the companies off of Newy Com. Newy Jai we definitely needed to keep. But that's just to get more troops down because obviously the fighting was going to be down on the high level, not in the mountains, which is where we normally had operation. I have that you found a landmine tripwire through a gut feeling in Vietnam. Can you tell us about that?

Well, that particular one, we were just out walking and got into an area. This is the mountains, we're at the foot, a lot of foothills. It's just starting to rise up, but kind of jungle area. And yeah, we were just wandering around and started backing up. You tend to go, mean, mean, mean. Looked down and across the back of my heel I had already started to pull the tripwire. And obviously it didn't go off.

Yeah, that sort of stuff happened. We hit mines a number of times. How much time did you spend over there? Well, I was there a full year. Kind of unusual, because most commanders stayed in for six months at a time and I had come from commanding another A-team in Thailand. What were you doing in Thailand? We were training the ties and it was kind of interesting.

We went over as Delta Company at first. This was organized at what was then Fort Bragg and it was, it's called the original good deal. You know, everybody was signing up and going over. What I never knew until just a few years ago is this was actually considered a strategic move, that they were literally worried about losing Vietnam and the stuff would go into Thailand. They had the CT, which were communist terrorists, and kind of small action, but this was gearing up to literally be the next barrier in case Vietnam fell. We of course did know that we were on training missions. I opened several camps. One was Nantikou.

When we went in, it was an area not much bigger when we were sitting here, a little hole in the jungle. And a year later when we left, there was an airstrip and you know the plan but we would bring we were working with the Royal Thai Special Forces and could bring in military recruit companies and training them. They had a few that they did send to Vietnam but most of this was geared to fight in Thailand. And then we had gone to Ubon, Udorn, Saigon, Nacong, and then down Kau Yoi, down in the South. We had teams scattered all over Thailand that were doing the same thing.

Going back to Vietnam, you'd spent an entire year there. And Vietnam was, I mean, the carnage and the death and the loss of life that you must have seen there. Was it a daily occurrence? Actually, no. No. No, there. No. No, there were periods.

I mean, there were peak periods. Our fighting was more kind of on the mount. Well, skip the holes that you asked about missions. One of the things that would happen is that we would periodically get air assets and they would normally send like four slicks, four snakes, and four OH-6 observation helicopters. And so what would happen is they would send them in and we'd take a pair of snakes and a pair of cobras and a pair of loaches and I would go with the loaches and we would literally go out hunting and go out

because this is the extended area that we could get to. And we had foot patrols that were going out all the time. But as again, because we were the last area, particularly to the west, Charlie stayed out there and had what I didn't find out. This was one of the intelligence issues. I had a friend that we can talk about in Cincinnati, was then Phantom II. And it turns out they had a lot more intelligence about where these units were than we knew. There were a lot bigger units than I ever imagined in my area.

But what we would do is go out. There's something called the tram forest. And this is out there miles and miles up, but it's the forest that grows through the water. And everybody just said it was impossible to live. That was not true. What they would do is go out and build, you know, areas out there where they could put in platforms and literally get up above the water and put in. So we would go out hunting until you found the units because they would move about.

Then we'd call the guns in. And then if the unit was there, if somebody could hold, then it would call the slicks. I had the four slicks weeding back at the base and you'd call them in to support. We'd do ground sweep on the area. Usually the guns would pretty much clean things out. What are slicks? Are those fast movers?

Well, the UH, yeah, the Hueys. Oh, God. Yeah. But they had, you know, the two door gunners, but this was very different. In fact, people will remember the old B model gunships, which again, were Huey. These were so underpowered. We'd go, when you go back to Chi Lang and a rearm and they'd come in there, you had to literally run alongside

while it was trying to get off. And just as it lifted off, then you jump into the helicopter and grab the gun. Oh my God. Oh my God. Now the people don't realize, like I say, it was really quite different at the time. Very interesting.

You had a incident where an OH-6 alpha was shot down. Can you talk about that, please? That was a no good very bad day. Yeah, though, we were out screwing around, again, doing these kind of search missions. I was looking for something and I was flying as the observer and looking down in the water and found some platforms that were, had some munitions piled up on it, said, OK, BC's got to be here. And so I popped smoke. What we were going to do, just blow it up from the air, I popped smoke and throw it, you know, on with the thing. And then I see this little brown trail,

said, oh, somebody's just running through the water. And all of a sudden the guy goes, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr And one lucky or unlucky shot, depending on your point of view, I guess, is they cut the gas line. And so my guys screaming, you know, were taking fire. The coincidental news that probably saved our ass was we were just changing over on station. So we happened to have two new loaches coming in and two more guns. So we had four Cobra's and, oh poor, anyway. So we were screaming and saying we're taking fire and went up and I still remember the screen,

you know, all the lights flashing and all that went out. And we hit the trees and my point where as we went from about 50 to zero instantaneously, and I was not wearing a chicken plate. And so I had a little bit of slack. I will say, you know, the thing caught, but that was not good. And the fortunate thing is a wingman slept down

and when we could move, it took a while to get to where he couldn't, and I had lost my gun. I mean, it went right past there. And you can picture, I mean, by the way, compliment to the builders, I mean, it crashed really well. I mean, the whole thing is disintegrated, got pictures here, they picked it up and the struts were off and the canopy in front of us is totally destroyed. And was able to get over and grab the struts and get lifted out

and then back to the hospital and can tow tow eventually. And yeah, sometimes the bear gets you. Yeah, that's, that's a... Well, it turns out what I didn't know at that time is we had gone down inside a VC battalion and damned if they didn't come after us, even with the guns on station, because there was a premium on capture Americans. And we did have one, Nick Rowe, the whole story, but he was in our area. was Capt. 162. But, yeah, they were willing to risk the fires. Sakes were pretty good between many guns and missiles.

They could really rig havoc, but they were willing to risk that to come and get us. And fortunately, didn't. Wow. Did you ever deploy on missions as individuals versus teams? Did you go out in smaller groups as an individual versus a team? No.

No? No, you never did that? No, there was no place where you would go. You would almost any place you tried to do that, you'd be seriously outnumbered. Oh, good. Yeah. Oh, good. What was it like coming home from Vietnam? Well, if I remember landing in the SeaTac, there were no take-a-tap parades or anything

like that, that's for sure. I saw more of it after when I was with the 25th Infantry Division, you know, where you ran into the students. I remember walking along with, I had a front license plate in Hawaii, and happiness is a green beret with Snoopy, you know, kind of cute. Some guy looking on me and goes, okay, got the messages. Yeah, yeah. What kind of stuff did you face personally after war?

What was the effect after, I mean, after a solid year of combat in Vietnam killing senior friends die. I mean, how did that affect you coming home? I'm not sure where you're going with that. One of the things that I have talked about is an area that's not talked about because we were ostensibly fully integrated and functional, and no overt PTSD, but one of the things I talk about is dreams.

This stuff comes back and can last for, unfortunately, like they happen again because of this, because I've compartmented that far enough away. And I recently, a lot of year ago, I was met with a friend up in Cedar City, Utah, and he was interested and kept pressing, and what about this? And I wrote him back and said, gee, thanks. These things do re-trigger them.

And unfortunately, it's never, in my experience, it was never like it really was. Usually it gets a lot worse in some ways. And yeah, but you don't hear folks talking about that. Yeah. And like I say, we're the ones who relatively fully integrated and. Well, I won't make you revisit it. I will not make you revisit that.

We'll move on. Well, the point is that just these kinds of discussions or the kinds that, you know, because I really thought this stuff was, you know, behind me and that, then you find out, you know, it's, you know, they can recur. It's pretty significant. I know you went back to war When Afghanistan happened after after 9-11

Before we get to Afghanistan. What were you doing in between? Vietnam and your Afghanistan Well in your Afghanistan? Well, yeah, well, various jobs. I was with, you know, see one of the unusual things we'll probably hit is technically I was an infantry officer for the people who don't know the 18,

or the Special Forces was not a branch. We were like a little skill identifier, initially an S and then a three that got added to your MOS. This wasn't your primary function. So technically, I was an infantry officer who spent two official tours ever in the infantry in the entire time. And so, you know, came back and went to the 25th. And what was interesting there, one of the things I've written to, this is something that people don't realize at all.

The infantry divisions are set up, if you're going to deploy, you send the infantry divisions, the fighters, they're going to go in and take over. Well, at the end of Vietnam, all of a sudden we have all of these folks coming out, and refugees going to various islands. So are you familiar with DISCOM? I'm not. Okay. DISCOM is the, they're all support units, if you will.

Okay. And so normally your support comes behind the fighters. We ended up with a support or a discom going out first, you know, taking hospitals and things like that that would have been in to support the infantry, but nobody ever prepared for the idea that we're gonna send the support units, not in a combat mission,

but in this case, just to receive refugees that were coming out by thousands. I mean, I think everybody knows how the collapse happened. And so we ended up sending units to Guam, but it was a very different exercise than nobody had ever contemplated that. And by that time, I was on the division staff. So preparing for that was really quite unique. I don't know if anybody's even ever written to what that was like.

Would you like to go into that? Would you like to go into that? Well, there's not much to go into other than to say because again in the division staff we were geared up to send the 25th Infantry Division, the Wolfhounds and you know, Gilliboss and all of them out first. And we also found out that a lot of people from the support staff had signed agreements, not thinking they'd ever be mobilized, but had to sign if you were married, had to sign agreement, had somebody to take care of kids and all of that.

That became a huge issue. Finding people who say, well, I can't deploy and did not have the backup system. I can't deploy and did not have the backup system. I suspect that's happened more in units, more recently, where you find, no, basically everybody is deployable and you've got to contemplate that. And it's nice to have dual incomes when everything's cool and just trips in that.

It's very different when you say, you know, oh, mommy's gonna be gone for a year. Yeah, yeah. One thing that I didn't ask you about that I would like to know is what was it like for you when the war was done? Did you feel like we abandoned our counterparts? No. Again, my take on it had been all along that it was kind of unsustainable to begin

with. And again, my experience with the Vietnamese ones I dealt with, well, my counterpart had tried to have me killed four times that I know of. How so? And in fact, one of the things we didn't discuss was one of the things I had done when I got there. We estimated that probably 10 percent of the CIDG were VC inside the camp. I had heard of attacks that had taken place where Americans, this had happened in other camps. So I created a special squad, we called it, and gave them M16s. I remember the main weapon that said, yeah, we're talking the old carbines. And one of the problems was they don't have a lot of stopping power or take down power

and all that. So I was able to get enough M16s and organized a special unit and when we went out you'd always have two Americans or so go on every operation and so I would send some of these guys and their job was not to fight it was to protect the Americans and potentially from our folks so I mean we knew there was an insider problem. There's no doubt about that. And one of the biggies we didn't hit that was most unfortunate.

I said we had this major ball who just a mega crook and a captain that was under him who was about to take over the camp. And the way the camp where I had the main camp, I said we had had the things on top of the mountain. We had an area called Batchouk, which was an old French triangular fort. There was a few clucks out, but within mortar range so we could support them. And one night they got hit, really bad. And yeah, this was when we put Spooky actually into the camp. But the next morning,

we had called in Mike Forrest and actually, you know, so we were gonna go out and force. And we're gonna, there's this rumbling going on and my interpreter comes and says, John was VC, what do you mean? It turns out that this Vietnamese captain had gone over to the VC. And what had happened is he had brought in six or eight recruits that day. And the regular VC were training on the hill and they had a battalion ready to go.

So a battalion hit the small thing that was supported by a company, half of them outside. Bottom line is we lost everybody that night, 100% KIA. And what it, oh, he had brought the recruits in when the attack came and everybody went, they were set up, you had little compartments, but you couldn't see from one to the other. And again, this is the old French fort. They even went behind and shot everybody. And because we got there and the only thing, there's no damage, nothing's blown on the wall, the wire fence coming in had just been moved aside.

That's where they left. But, you know, those were the kind of conditions. And, you know, he had gone, I understand. You know, I had actually sent a message out and said, look, I'll meet you and talk. What the fuck? Because this guy, he and I had gone out on operation, could have turned me over and all that, so I don't think it was a long term, but had convinced them enough to go over and turn and wipe out his own people.

And so when you say, did we desert? I can definitely understand your perspective. Yeah, it was really, like I said, the ones, high level ones I knew were corrupt. And like, out to get me, that's cause we were, we were very successful in these raids that we would go out and hit a number of times and picking up supply domes,

there's photos of that around and capturing weapons and all that. But yeah, you go for what, you know? Yeah, yeah. Well, what did you do when you got back home? What did you get into? Went to the next assignment. What was the next assignment?

Well, like I say, I went, I don't think, I don't know, 69. I don't know, was at Fort Hood. They came battalion three, yes, three operations officer. When did you start to get into Army intelligence? That comes along later. Several steps in between, but I ended up getting selected to go to, oh, this is, oh, 19, by 1979, I got selected to go to Command and General Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, which was not terribly stressful.

And so I wrote an article that was called the New Middle Battlefield. And this talked about remote viewing and psychokinesis. And a lot of it had come out of what the Soviets were doing. And I wrote that at the school, then was assigned as a Department of Army Inspector General. So I get there. Several in coincidence or synchronicity just keeps recurring through this.

When I wrote the article, frankly, I didn't think it would get published. But there's an area of interest and I had been looking at the Soviet stuff, and by the way, it'll catch me because I interject Soviet and Russian all that, but this was Soviet era, the bad old days. So I submitted the article to Military Review. There in Dimpity would have it that the editor of military review at that time had had a near-death experience. So the saying of being out of body on that was that. So instead of just an article that he chooses to print, it became the front cover article.

And it went out. Now at this time I didn't know about Joe and you know if they actually had a remote viewing it was a thing that said we probably ought to be doing this stuff and the something in the iron curtain you know we knew that the Soviets were heavily doing this. So it was just a, Jay, isn't that interesting? In my view, that's what it was. There was a muckraker in Washington called Jack Anderson. If you remember him or not, he was a, I don't know if you'd equate him to choose a day, but he was one of the top journalists that would come up with unusual things and look at the bad government,

look what they're doing and catch it. So he writes an article called The Voodoo Warriors of the Pentagon talking about us and basically got it wrong. Well, this raised health. See, nothing had happened when the article first broke, but now it's in the Washington Post and a bunch of other newspapers around the world. The voodoo warriors are wasting your money. Well, so I'm sitting at my desk in the bowels, and there literally are bowels in the Pentagon. And this guy comes roaring in, and he was from the assistant chief of staff of Intelligence. And he goes, did you write this letter or this article? Yeah? Well, don't you know the procedure for getting it cleared?

Yeah? And I just happened to have the paperwork with me. I don't know why, but it was there. And he was screaming and going like, oh, you're not. Is this your office? He goes, oh, oh. So it had been cleared. Fast forward years later, I'm doing a session at INSCOM and talking about some of you seeing this guy raise his hand. He says, did you write an article in the military review? He says, would you like to meet the guy who cleared it?

Apparently got his ass handed to him. So what had happened, there was a whole bunch of things that intertwined, but we're in about 80, 81, 82 Serendipity. The wife of a retired colonel is the friend of a wife of Depsek Def. And she runs a workshop and, you know, conferences on weird stuff. And by now I'm talking openly about what the Soviets are doing and whatnot. Still didn't know about the program. So, um, General Stillwell, he's retired, so he's back as a surveillance. I think he's deputy secretary of defense, maybe under secretary, but you know, number two guy on the Pentagon,

okay? So through the wives, they got a call and they asked me to come up and brief him on this stuff. Now, Lieutenant Colonel, which I was at the time, do not go into the secretariat without a flag officer as a head bobber. Well, that didn't happen. And so we went up and had a very nice, he says, well, who do you work for? And I explained where I was. And, okay, so I went back to my desk. So that was interesting. And about, you know, this was around one o'clock that I came back and about 4.20 that afternoon, our chief of staff comes in and says,

tomorrow morning you don't work here anymore. This guy had reached out and moved me. Just had no idea the impact it would have. And that's, I went under Thurman initially, who was then the Desper personnel. He was three star at that time. And then the stuff we were doing was getting darker. And so that's when I moved over to Inscom under Stubblebine.

I would like to rewind for just a minute. Okay. So let's go back to, you wrote the article about remote viewing, out of body experiences that got published. What is it that led you to write that article? Because that sounds like a very important turning point in your career.

Oh no, let's see. No, by this time, I had been interested in phenomena of various sort. And one of the biggies was, quote, the Bermuda Triangle, and there was an area out there had dived on, we think, pre-catechalismic civilizations. And so I had personal interest and when I was in Hawaii, I had done a number of talks and met with people and I was getting more actively involved. Some of the things go back even further. Yeah, in Thailand, I had gone out and met with their version of psychics. Also in Vietnam, physically inside my camp was a Buddhist monastery.

My main interpreter had been a Buddhist monk for six years. And so these are areas where we were talking on kind of extensively. So these kinds of things had led up to, like I say, writing the article. Is there anything specific that was a profound experience? No. Nothing. No. that was a profound experience? No. Nothing. No. It was all talking to-

No epiphany. Okay. It was just kind of generic, more and more and more of the synchronicities keep happening, being in the right place at the right time and hearing about stories. Now by, well, huge things had happened by the time I was at, I think, a sequence, in 1980. So I had become interested in near-death experiences. I was trying to think of the sequence on this. I was getting, I had done the masters and I was getting ready, I was doing, working on

a doctorate degree at the time. I was getting ready to grind out a dissertation because that's what you've got to do. And this was one of these, this was kind of a huge shift in thought here, but it's coincidental because I was back at now in Atlanta, Fort McPherson, and I went to a lecture by Elizabeth Kubler Ross, which was kind of interesting. And from that, I went to a life, death, and transition workshop that she was doing. And that was unique. I was just on leave, military hadn't sent me there.

But about half of the people who attended were medical of some kind, nurses, doctors, et cetera, interested in what she's talking about. And a quarter of people were, like me, just kind of generically interested. The other quarter were dying. So, I mean, you talk about an emotionally charged experience. That was at my roommate at where we were staying there.

I forget, it was in Midline, Gran Aloma, but he had literally his face was being eaten off and gonna be terminal and knew it and a lot of the people were like that. So that was really powerful. So I came back and I was at, no, at McPherson and I just sent Elizabeth a letter and said, gee, that was really powerful. Thank you.

So I'm in the office, a few, come out of it a couple of months later, the phone rings and it's Elizabeth's secretary and she says, I'm getting ready to go to physically do the dissertation. She says, look, Elizabeth is going to be in Atlanta tomorrow. Can you meet her? She's got a few hours between flights. This was the days we could go out to the gate and all that. I said, well, yeah, sure. between flights. This was the days we could go out to the gate. And all that was it.

Yeah, sure. So anyway, she flies in and I meet her and she says, you know, I probably know a thousand people in Atlanta and I chose you to call and I have no idea why. I said, I think I'm supposed to ask you a question. Would you do the committee? She says, oh yes. So like I said, you cannot program those kinds of things. The rest sort of is history, but it was a piece because, see, she and Raymond Moody, who had one kind of wrote life after life and was talking about near-death experiences and that. In the meantime, when I'm in IG, I had met, we were doing teaching courses at Commander General Staff College.

And I was introduced to a guy. This gets into the really weird stuff, but this was one of the most impactful near death cases because it goes back to Vietnam. And what had happened, to Vietnam. And what had happened, Jim, they were flying on cobras, you know, how the cobras lined up, you know, front seat and the back seat. He's front seat. And they're out alone. And normally you'd fly, you know, snakes went in pairs, you didn't fly alone. Well, they were flying alone and went out over this forested area and all of a sudden the 51 opens up on them. It hits thing and breaks his leg. You mean

the check is there. And cuts the controls between the front seat and the back seat. And there's nothing in the area. There's a tiny area, but it's not big enough to auto-rotate into. So what they do is, he says, he pulls the nose up. Now Jim says he pulls the nose up. Now the point here is we know the controls have been shot away between the front seat and the back seat, but he still brought the plane out. And the reason it was to come in, boom first, this was not going to be good, but it was to absorb the shock and to ameliorate the shock as you're coming down.

The other important aspect is you don't know the orientation of the helicopter because the blade's turning until after it's beaten itself to death on the ground. So it does that. And Jim says the thing started, literally his face is burned off by the area had caught fire on a very bad day. So now he broken leg, faces burn him. So they hit and next thing he knows, he's out of his body up above and he can see the orientation of the helicopter. And this is what gets critical.

And he can see that the wheels lined up off the nose about a click and a half out in front is a friendly fire support base. Jungle all around them other than that. But you have to have had the positions from above to look down to see the orientation. So the back seat is out. He's running away. The So the back seat is out, he's running away, the things canopies went this way. And he looks back and about that time Jim looks up. Oh, in the meantime, he's out of his body, he sees that and there's a hooded figure.

He describes his male and not sure why and he says, what are you doing here? He says, well, I'm trying to help them. Not I'm in trouble or something. He well, I'm trying to help them, not I'm in trouble or something. He says, I'm trying to help them. And he says, what, don't you know? He says, no, what? You're not dead yet. And with that, he lifts up.

Backseat is running away and sees Jim move. So he runs back and grabs him out. He says, I thought you were dead, you haven't moved since we were hit. A lot of other stuff happened. But they get into an argument about there's a fire support base. And the pilot's saying it's off this direction. And Jim is saying, no, it's off this direction.

And Payne is now setting in and not in the position to argue. And so he hides behind some higher, big ant hills that are in the area. And about this time, VC's coming in, coming after them. And so the guy goes off in this direction. Jim hides. He'd actually decided to commit suicide if he was captured,

because he knew wounded prisoners were not gonna be treated well. But they miss him. Friendly base comes, sends people out, they saw the crash and they send somebody out. So now they come in with a jungle penetrator. And this is the only case that I've had in this case. So he's lifted up, so he's now physically replicating his out of the body position.

And he can see the orientation of the helicopter, relative position to the fire support base, and say, this guy's lost, and was able to, before he passes out, say out say by the way the pilot went out over here Go and they went out and found him whoa Wow But like I say, it's the only case I have where you have You know from an out-of-body perspective and then physically you replicate it and find out now. It's accurate Have you ever heard of that

Since then or is this is the only time? No, I can say I know later, again, I guess when I was in IG, no, after I joined INSCOM that I became the president of the International Association for Near Death Studies. So, I heard lots and lots of cases and we can get into some of those. But there are people who have had things that have been authenticated that they saw, but never one where they physically get taken up and have become life-saving. Wow. I could see how that would capture your interest to write at that article.

So, moving forward again, you write the article, General removes you from the unit and puts you in INSCOM. What does INSCOM stand for? Oh, intelligence and security command. you from the unit and put you in INSCOM. What does INSCOM stand for? Oh, Intelligence and Security Command. What was your position at INSCOM? Well, they called it, what the Chief of Human Technology created the position. People used to ask what I do,

and I said, well, I'm a freelance colonel. Ha! Chief of Human Technology. That sounds fascinating. Yeah, well, we were looking at, and this is where we get into other aspects. You talked to Joe, the remote viewing program's going. Stubblebind is very interested. So, Stubblebine is very interested. Funding is an issue that's pretty significant here because it was a time when you had a

fair amount of funding that could be used. It's still true to some area, but discretionary funding reason, if and Burt was interested. And there's an important figure, one named Jack Hauke, who comes into this. And Jack is at McDonald's Douglas at the time. And he had watched Ray Geller and had come up with the quote spoon-dending process that is now popular. And so from friends of he used to come to Washington because he was also a C- did contract work for CIA. And so he was back and forth in Washington as we heard about this and he was just starting, he's gotta be 82, just starting the spoon bending thing.

And what he had found is that this was a teachable skill. And he had based it on the stuff that Gillar was doing. But he was having parties and would invite groups of people in and we heard about that, we had one. So that's kind of, I told Subway about it and he said, well, let's see if we can do that. So I got ahold of Jack and invited him to,

I was then in an apartment high rise in Washington, no Northern Virginia area. And we have PK Party. So we're sitting kind of on the floor, walking around and more or less a semi-circle. And there were some significant people there. People who know the history, Andrea Paharich was there, if you know him,

but this goes back into World War II. You know, he was interested and had worked with the agency. And I mean, these are heavy hitters in the Cy Phenomenon R&D area. And so Bert's sitting there, about much like we are now. And I had, there was a medium who was there, another one of the key people that been Rick Over's technical director and who knew the medium and brought her. But anyway, in the it works is you go through an hour or so and some of the stuff is physical so it's hard to say whether that has any significance.

But the graduate session, you end up holding two forks like this that are matched and no physical force. And so she's sitting directly across from Bert and her thing goes, boop. No way. With no physical force. I was like, oh shit. You saw this.

This is real, yeah. Oh, I've had later experiences, but I learned how to teach it and ran these things for a while. But it was this thing, you know, like I say, in front of the commander just drops a full 90 degrees with no physical force and said, need to look at this. So started doing serious studies and doing it. And then see we had, Then, see, we had, we would have love ends. We had 06 commands around the world.

And so every quarter, the commanders would come in and discuss what are you going to do, what's going forward, what's happening literally in the world at the time. Remember, this is bad old days. We're still talking Soviet Union. And so he was very interested in, I mean, so I ended up running sessions for them, which was not always appreciated by the folks who was interested. But the point, because I always think of questions, what are you going to do? Ben's tank burrows?

And you go, no, computers. Computers are just a thing about moving electrons. And the key issue there is I don't have to destroy. I just have to make computers unreliable. A lot of stuff there. But anyway, the big lesson that Bert wanted to get in, it really didn't have to do with the psychokinesis. It had to do with don't eliminate things just because you don't understand it.

See, we had been blindsided by the Soviets several times. Sputnik, for instance, was one. There were several others. Joe, did you talk about the submarine? Yes, I did. I mean, that was one that was a while. And the point was, we had all the information, and our boat builders said, don't believe it. You know, we never heard if you would go to depth, anything that big would crush, etc., etc. And we didn't have any word at the time,

the radically different Soviet subsystem. And as you know from the thing, came out and he had laid out, you know, the tubes are forwarded and he had laid out, you know, the tubes are forwarded to sail and that sort of thing. So our point was that had happened to us on several occasions and when you look back you found out you had the information but it had been disregarded. So the idea to these kernels was don't just disregard something because you don't do it because you've now had personal experience with things that happened that you didn't think could happen.

And so that was one of the emphasis that... What was that like for you to be in that room when that spoon hit 90? I mean, what was the... That was no shit moment. That was a... Yeah, because I had seen a little bit of bending before, but nothing that dramatic. I've seen even more dramatic since. There was one of these where, Loveans, we were doing at the Xerox Center. There's one where I can't

send you the I have the forks on it but same thing we're in a semi circle and I'm doing it and it was grumbling I mean face of there were people who didn't like the stuff going on and this has happened to be a lieutenant colonel who was a liaison from Europe who was in the session and holds it up and the same thing drops a full 90 degrees and they scream and go, but I did not see that. But I have a GS-18, the science advisor behind does. And so we're looking and there was a guy next to him that yelled and this thing just fell over. But then with everybody watching, he came back up, went down, came about halfway back up and stopped. I mean, literally wait. Now that's the end of one. I've only seen that happen one time, but it was really significant.

It had some other pretty good bending that happened that night, but absolutely no physical force. And this thing moving, you know, and so on. Now, I said, I have them. The reason he put that down, and he said, I wish that hadn't happened. I'm scared. And normally we let people take the stuff home with them. And scared him so badly that he just left it. And I still have those forks. You still have them. I understand he went back to Europe.

He was American, but you know, lays on there and did it once more and just said, enough, don't want to do that again. Scared him. But fortunately at the time of the initial incident, we had our shrink with us, we had to put him back together before we sent him home, because it was that big a deal.

Yeah. Wow. big a deal. Yeah. Wow. What, um, you know, I have a, uh, a handful of things that you guys were studying, it seems. I have a handful of things that you guys were studying at INSCOM and, and, uh, one of them is the Hutchinson effect. Can you describe the Hutchinson effect? Not effectively. John Hutchison, there's a video, I don't have the tape of it. What had happened was George Hathaway, who's a double E from Toronto, and another guy came in and they had a movie of these events happening and the problem is not a single thing. Stuff would levitate.

I mean, heavy items would levitate. Things would disintegrate. There was one photo. They had two pieces of wood with a rat tail file in between it, and it's just being exposed to this field effect. And you see the thing look like a filament on a light, back in the old filament days there, and you see it light up, burn and drop. It literally burns in two.

More exciting, pick it up after and it's cold. And, you know, again, these are things that can, and there are any number of effects. John Hutchison is alive and well in the island of effects. John Hutchison is alive and well in Iowa and California. On a subatomic level, I feel that there is a dimension shift activated by very conventional electrostatics, RF fields that I use and Tesla waves that I use that actually form a keyway that opens up another area of time and space that may activate the zero point energy fields and interventional reactions, let's say, to gravitational waves and time waves, or chronons, if you wish.

Perhaps we're dealing in chronons and gravitons, which are maybe particles. At that time, he was in Vancouver, and I put him under contract to me to replicate. And the big problem, like with many of these phenomena, control still doesn't happen. Lots of strange things happen, but you can't control the event. They had others with PVC exposed and the PVC parts of it disintegrate. He had a drive shaft.

By the way, the guy was a pauper. I mean, he had no money, no money. But he was interested in Tesla. So what he would do is he would look at pictures of Nikola Tesla and try to figure out what they were doing. The only saving grace, he had all this crap that was in there, was just... And fortunately, Hathaway went in and actually kept records of what this was, but still couldn't control the link.

But you had metal, again, it's just exposed to a field that would twist and burn, and some stuff would be affected, others wouldn't. And they could just totally, to this day, pretty much uncontrolled, though he's doing it. This is one digress, but I think ought to be in there. We now have, the Army has something called the Future Command that is looking at the, you know, what's the war going to look like, very different. And I got in touch with them. I actually sent a letter to the commanding general.

I mean, we did a number of these things. Think somebody ought to take a look. I had no thinking that the four-star general would get it, but I thought it would go to the staff or something. I have not even heard a peep out of them. I tried to some, you know, we don't understand this stuff, but you know, here's the roads we've been down, you know, wouldn't somebody be willing to take a look?

Abject silence. Yeah, with Hutchison, well, what happened was, I had provided him with enough funding to move this thing. Well, the problem was, he was living in a housing complex in Vancouver, and he would do this stuff. But what he would do is, by the way, how he found it was kind of interesting. What he wanted to do is to make sparks.

He literally had Vantograph generators and things like that because he liked to sit there and sparks. The way he found it, through something, and this thing came flying out. And he picks it up and throws it back in and it comes flying out and going like, what's this? Well, the real problem was that he was working in the basement of an area.

We think that the piping was probably part of it, but he was screwing up everybody's TV in the area. They did not like that. So made him move. I mean, it's not cable TV like you think of today. This was the stuff that went through the air at the time. So, I got a hold of a guy and he and George were working with him and we said okay we're gonna pay you to replicate this event. Okay so they they have a they're in a warehouse that's totally empty and you can get all the way around it and I what I did is I gave them a bunch of metal

what I had various metal samples, and I'd cut them in half. I was operating out of Fort Belvoir at the time. So half of the metal is in a safe at Belvoir, and the other half that I sent to them. So we agree to have Show and Tell, and I have a team of scientists, two of them from Los Alamos, and I promise not to denigrate anybody, but anyway, I had four others, including myself, so we go to show, so I arrive a day early, just want to make sure things are working.

And they're really excited. Hey, we had this thing levitating. And so all we did was turn it off, leave everything, setting the idea was tomorrow we'll turn it back on, and everything's right in place, so unusual it'll happen. They come in, we turn it on and damn it the power supply doesn't catch fire and burn up on the spot. It turns out there was no reason we spent the rest of the day they were trying to find another power supply to it. The bottom line is nothing happened doing that. Now in the meantime, Jack Hauke again had given me some molybdenum rods.

And the point was that molybdenum was, it was treated differently and had never had success with anybody trying to bend it. And I had given them rods and had some parallel ones. Damn, if they didn't give me one back with an S-curve in it. How that happened, don't know. Interestingly, one of the questions was, were we looking at psychokinetic effects? Because I had asked John, are you part of the system? And he would say, yes, I get excited and it bends. But when I asked George about it, he says, no, it bends or whatever happens happen, and then he gets excited. So whether this is a micro PK event or whatnot. Don't know, but there was certainly a series of very unusual things that were

happening and still happen. Uh, after, well, since nothing happened, uh, in the R experiments, we went back and damned if one of the two guys from Los Alamos didn't write this really nasty, I don't know if you know Tom Bearden or not, but he had a whole thing about how Tom had slipped into the country and done this and it was just terribly convoluted. I mean all he had to say was we came, we saw nothing happen, anything. Instead, it's this very nasty gram. And, you know, so yeah, we couldn't go forward,

but Jack did get funding and do it, but similar sort of thing. The stuff would happen just outside the camera range and that. But it's almost like the ranch. Strange things happen and you really can't explain it. What year is this? Well, mine is going to be 82, maybe 83. I'm still in touch with them, though.

That's why I know he's got a lab in northern California, but has a lot of health problems. But there's still continuing, and news come in. And while it was wonderful, but nobody has been able to, you know, establish the parameters and have it on a replica basis. How long, so you get moved into INSCOM, and how long was it before you started seeing metal bending, levitation,

deep particle, what do you, deep particleization? I can't give you the exact time. Is this all happening at once? I'd have to go back and look because it depends on when Jack, it was all predicated on Jack coming to town and they say doing the first one

and then the one that I set up with the Subalbine and Anne Gaiman is the one who had that thing drop on us. It's about the same time because I'm still working with ions, totally civilian side, this is near death studies, is remember driving up there and stuff being bent. In fact, the next one we actually had was the ions board going, wow. So, to see the problem is these things keep getting intertwined. It's not all sequential. Yeah.

What, what, um, I have a couple other questions. What is primary perception? Oh, not a simple one. Primary perception has to do with the guy by the name of Clee Baxter. Well, Baxter's also fundamentally involved in that because Hell put off an M knew about him and so he's one that kind of got remote viewing going. This was before Joe and that. That's a name that Cleve gave to the effect.

Now Cleve's history during World War II, he had been in counterintelligence in the army, went to CIA when it was formed and was the guy who developed the polygraph system that's still used. So he's teaching polygraphy. And because of that, he's got scientific equipment. So the initial question was he was living in New York at the time, had large plants there and he said, I wonder if when I pour water into here, how long does it take to get to the leaves? A simple straightforward question, you know.

So he hooks up his polygraph with like a GSR, the galvanic skin response thing that measures moisture, right? So he puts it on the leaf, pours the water in, watches it, but he leaves the thing hooked up. And the way that this is going through is so it's going out to the polygraph, so he's keeping track of when you know, when the moisture changes and that. Over time, just hooked up in his apartment, he was a bachelor, and he notices this thing's wiggling from time to time. What is it that's causing it? I'm not pouring water in there. And so he came to the understanding

that it reacted, the plant was reacting to the physical emotions of things around it at the time. And where the experiments got really interesting was, well, he started with, went over and burned the leaf. And you get a response from the polygraph. Oh, that's weird. He says, that got to the point where he would think about burning the leaf and the plants responding.

And you go on, this is the primary. What is it that this guy's thinking about doing harm to a plant and it is physically responding in a way that can be monitored. Step beyond that was, went into monitoring oral leukocytes, white cells from the mouth. And he was able to do, to take a person's sample, put it inside a Faraday cage, running through, we have electrodes in it that are running back through the polygraph that's being recorded, then you film it. And then the individual would be exposed. Sometimes what they do is have them send them home and say, watch certain TV programs because you know that certain

emotional events are going to happen, but you don't know when. So by recording them together, you're able to see that the leaves are responding to the emotional event that the person is observing at another location. Oh, it gets better. Believe me. Is it in gets better, believe me. Is it in the same room? No. How does it know?

Because the white cells of the connection. The person's white cells are being monitored, even though they know where we were interested. The joke of a general doger, that case, where he was kidnapped? Well, that was one of our interests. How is there a way that you can monitor people at a distance if you had, say, the cells and simple things like alive or dead? That would tell you what kind of rescue operations you might want to launch.

So it gets interesting. So one of the things I did was, again, I had cleave under contract and I replicate the system at Fort Belvoir. It was really interesting. I went out there to do it. He was completely cooperative and showed us how to do it. So I had a senior scientist from a night vision lab go with me to watch it because he's going to build the system for me.

And so I said, okay, here's all the material, how it goes, and he goes, but there's a peace missing. I said, well, the peace missing is what I'll take care of. And in fairness, he said, look, I have chosen this much of the universe for me. You can move things about in there, but don't tell me I have to relearn physics because I don't want to hear it. One in five Americans have learned a new language on their bucket list. If that's you, make 2024 the year you finally check it off the list with Babbel. Be a better you in 2024 with Babbel, the science-backed language learning app that actually works.

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power 10% of all e-commerce platforms here in the United States. You can sign up right now for $1 a month. It's Shopify.com slash Sean. That's all lowercase. Go to Shopify.com slash Sean now to grow your business no matter what stage you're in that Shopify.com slash Sean. In fairness, he replicated it and I was replicating what Phil was doing, or what Cleve was doing back at Fort Belvoir. So one of the time, we went out to, he was in the San Diego area. So I, out there, we set up a three screen.

So I'm the one who donates the cells. They've got me on the polygraph and on the video camera. And I let them square around and get things that would be emotional. I could beat the polygraph, but not the white cells. I mean, the white cells said there's an emotional contact and the polygraph is no deception indicated. Now, if you wanted the real So, 87 time frame. General Thurman, who's then the vice, gets the National Academy of Science and National

Research Council, and he knows that the Army has been looking at a lot of weird stuff. And so he asked them to do a study of all of the unusual things we had doing. And I appeared before him several times. And the initial is you got the wrong group, nice folks, all that, but there was only one person who knew anything about Syphonomena. And he was from a founding member of the skeptic society. I mean, he was, we could ask about him.

That's Ray Hyman. We can discuss him later. But so I got the wrong folks. So we've told them about the various things that we're doing. And so they're going to have a meeting at Scripps, which happens to be in San Diego. Say, hey, this is a good place we can do a show and tell. We will take them to Cleave's lab. By this time, Cleave is out in the San Diego area, running his polygraph school there.

And he's on the sixth floor of a building. When I draw it, I usually, if you're looking from the top down, one wing is the classroom where these things are going. The other, actually, where he lives and has all of this equipment going on. So, same thing. When you're doing a thing for the Academy, yet you don't want to know it worked yesterday, you want to know things are working today. So I had arrived early and the group is coming. And so they agreed to take to it. Well, what happens is I donate cells and we set it up, you know, so it's monitoring me.

And then, so they come and two of them go to the lab and everybody else goes into the classroom where Cleve is going to give a description. Now, Cleve was one of those people where you're asking what time it is and you get the history of chronometers. So what happens is time then they're watching and he says, oh, God, you know, he's just, Cleve, you've got to get going, you know, you're losing these folks because he's going to give kind of the history, and I'm going to say, by the way, I've independently replicated this at Fort Belvoir. So what happens is, finally, he gets off and he gets my turn. So I stand up to talk, and I'm basically going to hurry it up.

And about 90 seconds, his lab assistant comes running in and says, what happened 90 seconds ago? And I said, well, that's when I started talking. He says, well, this machine just went wild. I can show you these tapes. I got something. It is now just going on. Well, I can tell you that telling the National Academy of Science, the universe is not built the way they think it is can be emotionally stimulating because that's what I was telling them. And so what happened is, and you see throughout the time that I'm talking, it's how they run in and they rip it off. Yeah, it just went wild. And I am considerable distance from what we had forgotten that they were running because

they were going to set up to do somebody else. So let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly. So you have a polygraph machine hooked up to your cells, to your white cells. You have nothing hooked up to you. No. When you get an emotional response. But I understand I am a

considerable distance away there's a number of brick walls between me and that thing yes so your emotional response is going is communicating with the white blood cells in a completely separate room through brick walls in the holograph machine is measuring the emotional response. Yeah, and it went wild. This is why you told me not to be messing around with photons and electrons the other day on the phone,

isn't it? Well, there is no rational explanation for why. We had, I had done it at 50 miles or so. It was from Belvoir to Arlington Hall. At that time, NCOM was at Arlington Hall Station, and I had the lab set up down at Fort Belvoir. So I am going to see Stubblebine. I know I'm going to tell him no to something he does not want to hear. And sure enough, you know, now this isn't one where you have the instantaneous, you know, absolute control, but I drive up there and you definitely see a response to my cells, you know, 50 miles from the event. 50 miles?

Yeah. 50 miles. Yeah. But see, when clear-cap primary perception, we don't think distance should make any difference. So it's not physical difference. It's, you know, what is the connection? And in this case, we do know that's between the cells that are being monitored and they're responding

to the emotional state of the donor. Ups, is this like particle entanglement? What is... what is this? Could be. Yeah. Unless it bells there, I mean you spin one way and distance should not make a difference. What's the farther should you guys tested this? Well, that was probably that 50. Yeah, from Belvoir to Arlington. And again, that's not nearly as exact. The real exact one, again, was when we were in the building.

And again, straight line distance, you had two brick walls and several internal walls between us and the equipment. What did the spectators think about that? The report came out and there was no word whatsoever mentioning it. Nothing. Yeah. It was just totally ignored. What are your thoughts about the plants at the time responding to human emotion? Not a word.

What was you what was what did you think? Oh, well, that's what God was interested in there. You know, from beyond that's interesting, has interested. And then, you know, from beyond, that's interesting. But what can you do with this? Do you think it means humans can communicate with plant life? Oh, absolutely. There's no doubt about that. And Chris Byrd wrote books. I mean, there's several books written on that.

And the same with plants, come in or responding to music and things of that nature. Yeah, but we thought, again, the more interesting aspect was not just the plants, well, we're getting some very fundamental issues, but the whole deal of the role of consciousness, but the whole deal of the role of consciousness and that everything really is interconnected in ways that we couldn't possibly imagine. Wow, what's keep going down some of these different things that you guys studied? What is neuro-linguistic programming?

Oh. Interestingly, the NLP, your neuro-linguistic program, was the one thing that this panel said probably had some application. They said none of the other stuff had any practical application? Well, they believed NLP because the amount of research they went into was... Okay, this was invented by John Grinder and Richard Bandler. A little publicity, but there's a new movie out called Altered States by Richard Bandler, which addresses all of these.

And yeah, I'm in it with some others who did have practical application. It is that there is a physical response that's stored in the body. You may have heard of things like anchoring or imaging, mirroring and things. How do you increase compatibility between one person that has very practical applications? The issue, when it was formed, what they did is they looked at Fritz Pearls, Virginia Satir, and on the Erickson's.

And the question was, why is it that these people have very rapid success in treating individuals and people who take their techniques and, you know, continue on, you know, the effects kind of dissipate. And so they had come up with kind of a, basically it was a critical path model of saying these three people were the primary one, that you were doing certain things that others people don't follow up on exactly enough. Now we're so many applications. One of them was that, again, the bad old days, we had things called LTs or legal travelers. And this is where you're getting into the spike routine. And they were interested,

so you said somebody comes out from the Soviet Union, they can, it's known that they're coming out and they're going back. That's what the legal travelers going back and forth So you want to know where the KGB cut them and turn them? so you've got to be able to reestablish rapport very quickly and They were using these techniques for that And of course they're doing polygraph and all of the other things on it. But that was one of the practical applications. I had Richard Bandler under contract. I'm convinced he's the real brain, John Grinder. And another guy you may know called Tony Robbins.

And these guys were under contract to us. So our practical application, we did something called Project Jedi. This was multi-agency that was running. And one of the things all agencies had together were they shot things. And the other is that it's highly quantifiable. You hit the target, you didn't hit the target, there's no, I feel better.

Now, remember that when NLP was formed, it was formed to fix broken people, help in therapeutic modalities. Our question was, we got really good people. How do we make them better? And so kind of a different application to it. So in Jedi what we did is we said, okay, we went out to the world, could have got anybody, said who's the best pistol shooters in the world? And the answer came back, you ought to be looking at the Army Marksmanship Unit. So we brought in the Army Champion, the Inter-Service Champion, and their boss, and worked with them. And fairness, Tony was one of the ones working with us, but we went through the whole model of how do you shoot

and also key was what do you think about shooting? And for them, shooting is a good thing. You can protect your life. You can make a living off of it and all of that. Physically, we would have them shoot and you could get them way the hell off balance and they would hit the target pretty well. But there was a vast difference in their technique.

When they came in, one of them, they came in, he opened the box, put on his glasses, did a whole bunch of, if you interrupted him, took his hat off, put the glasses on, went back to back to another one to go, yeah, okay, and he'd go back to shooting. So obviously all this other stuff is not critical. But we developed what we called basically the critical path model. What is it that makes a good shooter? And then we took two groups of people, they were split kind of paired samples, they were all military,

many of them had never shot a 45 before. And the other thing about 45 is people would say, you know, it's a terrible weapon, you do better throwing it than shooting it. And so we took a group, we just designed a process using NLP and then we took one group that we trained, one group that the Army Marksmanship Unit trained using their procedure. Our problem became that everybody had qualified using the NLP technique within the first day. By noon the next day everybody was shooting expert.

I mean, there was no place to go. The Army Marksmanship Unit went there four and a half day course in child. So we've got an obvious advantage in ammunition and those sorts of things right off the bat. The other thing that we did do though is we took a lot of it was visualization. Well, I'll give you one of the big aha and credit Tony for coming up with this it was called the success cycle the point here was Normally when you shoot you put the thing out 25 meters whatever the issue until you hit the target and then keep going We didn't do that Target started point blank range

And you could not miss that's what we call the success model. You could not fail and then kept moving it back until you were doing it. So you learned success from the beginning and that was really critical. And like I say within day and a half we got everybody yet at the expert level on it. And it was unfortunate we had started into another project right after that, besides shooting. One of the questions that came up again were in the battle days and were the Soviets are still there and they had an issue with NSA The Soviets are still there and they had an issue with NSA and listening. See what they would do, remember there's a fist. They're using Morse code and sending things. Yeah, everything is encrypted, but there was a lot of background chatter.

Before they would start sending the message, you know, hi, hi, or you wouldn't do blah, blah, blah, and they got to learn people what they called fifth. The problem was that, well, the two, one, the Soviets were much faster than our people. They're going to 60 words a minute and are kind of maxing at 2025. The big problem was we sent people to school and by the time they would go to school for a long time,

go on leave, report to the next unit, they have to be retrained. The skills were not training. The big aha was we were asking the wrong questions. The selection criteria was who are smart people, that's good, who can type, that's probably pretty good. The critical question, what kind of stereo equipment do you have? The point is, what you were looking for, and they didn't know it, were audio files.

People that hear differently. That was a critical component to it, as opposed to can you type and are you smart? What do you mean people that hear differently? Well, the reason people are audio files, and I've got one, I mean, you see the extent of his equipment, it just blows me away. I mean, being deaf, I just can't hear very much anyway.

But these people were, you know, had very finely attuned hearing, and were investing in that, in the kinds of equipment that they would buy just on their own. So that was the critical question. Now you could have, we did not go, we ended up getting, it's about the time that Bert got terminated, we had to end the studies, but yeah, it was just the things you got. These were out of the blue

sort of things that you would not have anticipated, but you could learn. Again, the basic thing is a critical path model in knowing what you're looking for. It's tremendous. Now, some of the things I saw Richard do, and again I'm still in contact and what not with him. We had a guy who was working with us who was CIA, named Andre. He was the only guy who got captured in Lebanon that we got back alive. And of course, after that, he couldn't go back on the cover because he'd been captured. What happened?

He says, well, the cavalry came over the hill at just the last second because they were about to do him in. But the point there is this is really a strong emotional event. And we were able to go back and recreate history as if that event never happened. Now these are fairly sophisticated techniques in that, but you're literally changing the history and guiding where he could pass a polygraph

as if he had never been kidnapped. No kidding. So, like I say, it's very significant in the applications that were there on. Are they still studying these? Who is they? The government, whatever. Not as far as I know.

And as I said, I know Richard, I talked to him a few months ago when he was in Vegas, and now they do teach commercial courses that are available. Now this is one of the problems, this is why I mentioned the War of Fusions Command, trying to explain to them, you know, what we did and where to go, where you're successful, and there were failures too, of course. But, you know, trying to get them to not have to relearn history, but we have a propensity for reinventing wheels on a continuous basis. There's a story about a turtle. Okay.

Can you tell us that? Oh, no, no, that's a little different. The turtle was the name of the guy who fills a slot behind you and comes up behind you. And that was one where the guy who had taken my position as an S1 in Hawaii, and I bumped into him years later, and he had been assigned to the Military Personnel Center. Now, I understand Military Personnel Center. Now I understand from the time I went to the CGSC until I retired I was never assigned by the system. It was always one general to another and then he would tell him you'll fix it and I happened to bump into him and I knew he was at Milpersand and he says, you know,

I had to keep your file in my drawer for like no money because nobody knew what to do with it. So no place to put it. Wow. So how long were you at INSCOM? Not sure, two or three years. Two or three years. What happened is, Stubblebind was forced into retirement and they knew I couldn't stay there

because the guy coming in, Ed Soister, had taken his place, who was not of all things. He was an artillery officer, not even an intelligence officer, but the big system was not happy. And the program had morphed and now gone to DIA. And yeah, they knew that I would not survive in that environment. So this is when I went to the same thing. It was a personal handoff. We went and found there was a three-star at the Army Materiel Command who was amenable to these sorts of things.

And so I went to work for them. So mostly, I think, you got things got into really had a day job. And that was definitely true when I got to AMC and all the UFO stuff and that. During the period at INSCOM, it was when I had a lot more flexibility, but did the other things. Most of the time had an assignment you could fall back on more than a cover story, but you actually did a job. Okay. What were you also studying out of body body when you were at NSCOM?

Well, I actually, for me, was sensory deprivation. I actually had a sensory deprivation tank because when you get into near-death experiences, remember, this is where all these things, time-fling, back in Feather, so you have civilian and military applications concurrently in many areas. Yeah, in NDE's, near to that experience, Autoscopic, what they call seeing your body from being outside is one of the critical things. And then one of the issues that had come up with remote viewing is, you know, where's consciousness? And there are some studies, what's the guy's name?

It was a guy at Monomies had done some studies and they were wondering whether or not his consciousness as we know it is here or is it physically at the location and is that a requirement. Alex Tannis is the guy's name and the experiments there where they had him you know because said, I'm going out of my body. And what they did is they put a different location inside the same building. They had a target, but the target was generated in such a way they had wheels and things that would show up. The only way you could see the proper one is that physically, your point of origin was

at one location. Otherwise, the other things wouldn't line up correctly. They also put in strain gauges to sense is there something or something there. You can argue what that something is, but it talks to the potential for a physical interaction as opposed to just pure consciousness or pure thought. And they were able to prove pretty conclusively that, you know, at the time that he would report being out of body, that they were sensing something at the point and then he could accurately, most of the time, report

not, not a hundred percent. And that's one of the problems. A lot of these things are never a hundred percent sort of thing. But in order to see the representation and report on it correctly, the point of origin had to be at a known location, which suggested that, yeah, it was out of the body. And again, you know, this is something that's reported quite frequently as part of near-death experience, but not necessarily all of them. You had a recent guest,

and I don't want to put him on the spot or speak for him, but Ryan Hendrickson. Who has an experience, and I've talked to him since, I found it absolutely fascinating. I'd recommend it to everybody, a very inspirational kind of event, but steps on an IED in Afghanistan, literally blows his leg off.

But what interested me in the words that I heard there is he's talking about the life review about being able to see this thing and And I've been able to talk to, I won't go into it because he can discuss it if he wants, but it was very much, his perception was a little different from most of them, but it was, you know, that he understood not only the event, but how that event impacted others from an emotional standpoint.

And that is also one of the common features of many near-death experiences. I'll tell you that there's never anything that's absolute 100%. I mean, many of these things have infinite variations. But, you know, the question was, I hope Joe mentioned some because he talks about some of the things that happened to him and that being, one of the questions that's come up is, can you sense out of body or a consciousness being there and there's a whole field on how do you do psychic protection to protect the individual, protect yourself if you're doing those sorts of things.

Have you come up with any conclusions? None of these have conclusions. Now what we do and one of the big issues that has come up on Skinwalker, you've probably heard about the Hitchhiker effect of where things have followed some of these people. And what I did last time I was at the ranch, do certain protections, Native American smudging, for instance, as an example. I taught to call him Kellerhur, who was one of the key people, and particularly in the OSAP program.

And he was at NIDS, we were there at the same time and spent a lot of time with the ranch and say they would go through kind of protective measurements and this is in the if you believe category but can't hurt. Yeah. I have a question. At your time at INSCOM. You're studying all these things, out of body experience, remote viewing, primary perception, the Hutchinson effect, neurolinguistic programming. How are you recruiting your subjects? These people that have these abilities that can bend metal, that can remote you, how are you finding them? Yeah, they weren't a damn, we didn't actually do recruiting.

Now, I mean with Clave, the subjects basically were me. It's like we get into a mon-lethal weapon or anything like that. I do these things. I've been shot by all the systems and when we were doing it, I go out and do these things. The same with Hutchison. Yeah, I was the one directly involved in getting them, bringing in other scientists, but basically as observers to authenticate what we were getting was real. The one where we did the pistol shooting that I mentioned in Project Jedi, not sure how,

but we were able to get maybe 30 people. I'm not sure exactly how we did that. I remember we were talking almost 40 years ago. In some cases it is 40. The reason I'm asking is because if we could put it something out right now, saying, hey, we want people, we want people to email into this email, if you have an ability that you can bend metal. I don't know the percentage. I would assume that 99% of the people that email in are completely full of shit.

And so that's kind of, that's kind of what, how did you sift through and find these people? What you're arguing to hear or discussing is the difference between the Soviet approach and our approach. And that was one of the key people, the things that, you know, the question was, do I take intelligence people and teach them to be psychics, or have those capabilities, or do I take psychics and teach them the additional skills? The Soviet approach was to go out with the broad net and look for people with the skills and then bring them in. Ours was, I think, much more constrained. And if you look at the people who were brought

into the program, a lot of them didn't know they had these capabilities. Interesting. And one of the things in the program, well, you mentioned Stargate, because that's the best known, it had a number of names before that. But they were doing personality tests,

specifically to address your question. Where do you look? You know, do you find people? And they did find, MBTI was something we use, Myers-Briggs type indicator was one of several ones that. What is that? What is that? What is that? Well, it's a very well-known psychological instrument that has the 16 categories of,

you know, I'm an INTP, you know. But looking for when they tested the people who had these innate capabilities. Now, there's another question that has come up, and that is, is it better to find a natural or can you train the capability? And that's where the guy who, it'll be just a Joe McMonagall, is quote, a natural. And he was remote viewer in 001, and I'm sure described all that. We found other people, well, did he go into Ingo Swann? Because what happened was one of the three people that SRI used initially was an artist in New York, Ingalls Vaughn, and he came up with his contacts

of the matrix. So the critical question is, is this a trainable skill? And now there are people out there now in the world teaching remote viewing. And there are people out there now in the world teaching remote viewing. And there are people who do it naturally. I would argue that it's like all skills. Everybody has some skill at lover, but I'm never going to run a four-minute mile. You know that.

So there are, you know, can I get better? Yeah. And that's true with most people. Do people have psychic experiences in it? Absolutely. Do they recognize them? Maybe, maybe not. There are a lot of people who will deny it, but you know, when you get into it, you know,

the thing of phone ringing, knowing who it is, that was before we had color ID. But there were things like that that made sense. So I don't want to take anybody living away, but it's, can you improve? Yes, are you going to be a Joe McMonigal? Yeah, probably not, depending on where you are. And so we're having natural skills. We saw, by the way, one of the things that came up in your death experience,

initially we thought you had a discrete event that happened in a very short period of time. And that was a precipitating event that might have happened, accident, illness, whatever. What we found over time is many of these people increased in psychic capability. We had a lot of them who became particularly psychokinetic. I couldn't wear sensitive electronic equipment or being around that, became telepathic, became precognitive, and that seemed to increase

after NDE. So you know these events are happening out there. Yeah, can you enhance it? Yes, can we program it? Are there potential dangers? Yeah, there are. And that's the piece that nobody wants to talk about. I don't know if you use this, but my digression, he'll talk because he's dead, was a subalbine, who after retirement, and we stayed friends for a long time, and he went off the cliff. And one of the dangers we've seen when I had put together the UFO group, one of the things we agreed to do was to watch each other, specifically because we had some people literally go crazy and say you know if you see somebody going off the cliff you can you'll say you're going off the cliff.

Doesn't mean you pull them back or stop them but we agree that we would watch each other and if you see the symptoms do it and there were several that, yeah, just another word for it, but... Wow. Yeah. So a lot of, all of this has to do with human consciousness. With what? All of this has to do with human consciousness, obviously. The stuff with the plant really gets me.

The plant. Do plants have consciousness? Yes. Well, let me drop back even further than that. And this is a fundamental issue. If you're familiar with Max Planck, German physicist in that, and use his quote or approximation, is that consciousness is fundamental, you cannot get behind consciousness. And the implication here is that the physical arises from the consciousness, as opposed to consciousness arising from the consciousness as opposed to consciousness arising from the

physical, i.e. being something that's generated in the brain. We're in the deep philosophical kinds of things but that's pretty pretty profound. Because everybody has thought, you know, I think therefore I am, no, you am therefore you think is kind of more appropriate, but it gets into just everything. Everything is interrelated level that's almost definitely impossible for humans to contemplate. It's that big. I don't know whether to have this conversation right now or wait till the end because I know we have so much more to cover. But okay, well, where do you think we can move it? Where do you decide they can cut and splice? Where do you think consciousness exists? Oh, consciousness is.

We exist because of consciousness, not the other way around. Is consciousness... Let's see if there's a big bang. I happen to have some problems with that. But, it says that consciousness created that and everything, the physical universe evolves from consciousness. All right, John, we had spoken on the phone

a little bit about some of the intelligence failures that you're aware of, and I wouldn't like you to expound on that a little bit here on the show. Well, there are various ones. There are certain ones we can go into Vietnam. But the one I was explaining that led, I was invited to a classified conference down at McDill on future technology. And we listened to, oh, we're going to do this, we're going to do that.

So finally I'm sitting there and said, has anybody heard of Purple Rain? Which is not the name of the program, but I got this blank stare and whatnot. I said, well, your future technology, we deployed 30 years ago. You know, where is the institutional memory? So, Pete Schumacher was then the sink. We still had sinks of Socom and I wrote him a letter and said, you know, here's an example, but somebody needs some oversight here.

We need a graybears panel of people who remember some of these things because across the board in soft units Operating small you know small groups information goes around. They're very innovative So some lot of these things work But if you're gonna get this out there has to be some way to You know make the information more available. The result was that he set up a panel, like I described with people from various elements

of the soft thing that could come in and look at the various technologies. And that went, we did that for several years. What kind of technologies? Well, like I say, this was one that's been uncovered now. Specifically, they were looking at ammunition that would explode. Okay. And the new idea was that we would insert information or ammunition into enemy stockpiles. And we actually did that in Vietnam. We had, you know, 7.62, their calibers of stuff for their AKs and others, and you would take, in this case, an entire clip

and one or two rounds, so you could fire it, and then it would blow up on them. And the idea was not just blowing up individual weapons, it was obviously making them question the reliability of the system. So you're attacking something much bigger than just blowing up a single weapon. But that was a specific example. And we used to do that. I carried certain round clips with me that when we found a cache, would leave something behind. And then I had to report the grid coordinates

as to where that went in. Interesting. And again, nobody, when you, when you asked the, he's got a young, bright, innovative folks thought it was probably a neat idea, but also thought they thought of it. That was happening all the way back then. I did not know that. Well, and my concern is that those sorts of things still are. Because like I say, information does not get spread.

You get spread word of mouth people who were from the team. Oh, we did this and but we have a propensity for reinventing wheels. I'm 100 percent with it. I'm sure that's in TTP too. What works, what doesn't work. And unfortunately, that often produces casualties and you're finding out better ways to do things. So you're saying there needs to be,

it's funny to say this, because I know everybody thinks that this exists, but you're talking about a centralized location where lessons learned, new tactics, future technologies is all centralized and then disseminated into... Well, there are historical units, but they tend to capture the big picture sorts of things. And this is the one they would never have come up unless they thought it was a technology to be developed and spread out. You know, on A teams, and I'm sure on SEAL teams,

the way the old guys teach the new ones and that. One of the big things that I think changed between Mayer in Vietnam and Iraq and Afghanistan is we deployed as individuals Most of the time I went as Delta company of the first and we went into Thailand But that's because we were creating the unit There later became 46 company There later became 46 company

But in Vietnam we rotate as individuals So you didn't have the traditional camaraderie that you have we a whole unit six together and moves and has common Experiences you had people who were constantly rotating in and out had to make up the team and You know as you know these teams work closely make up the team and, you know, as you know, these teams work closely and relies on, you know, personal experience and who you think is reliable and who not. Very true, very true. You know, that's something that we,

we ran into a lot of problems that could have been solved if there would have been a centralized location for stuff like that where they was disseminated because you have lessons learned and new tactics, new whatever within just your team, your platoon. Then you have Team Wide, which, a handful of platoons. Then you have your coast of SEAL teams. And you have soft and general, you know, special operations forces in general of all the different units and, and, and yeah, there is some stuff

that gets disseminated out to each team. But I mean, even, even lessons like, like I can give you an example. Most of us personality dependent. I could be the right be in the right place. If you've got the right people at the right place and interacting. Like an example that we had was, I mean, Iraq in 2005,

we're using Green Tip in armor piercing rounds against people that don't wear armor. using green tip, armor piercing rounds against people that don't wear armor. And it takes a lot more bullets to put somebody down with armor piercing rounds when they don't have armor than it does to use something like a 77 grain, five, five, six round, you know, something with a lot more weight

and not as much velocity behind it. But we had to find out the hard way, unfortunately, and that's 2005, that's four years after the war started, you would think that that would have been disseminated long before that. And so I'm just 100% in agreement with you there. One of the things that we found was, again, things you ought to know, but I'll give you a specific case. The Sergeant Logan, he was down on Nui Koto

that I mentioned before and they were doing a sweep. And called back, we were the closest camp, and gave me his location with the makeshift code. I think it was Big Nuts Joe or something like that. And he goes in, well, I just looked at it, no, no, I know where you are. I mean, I didn't, you know, deed anything to break it, just looking at it. Not even knowing which one he was using.

Somebody else was listening that night, and they did not make the morning. One of the top things was, there was a certain Logan, and years later I was at Fort Hood and I forgot how it was, but ended up having to go visit his mother. That's tough. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we had another one. Again, this is using the same things and assuming everything's going to be okay.

I mentioned that we had a company on top of Newie Jai at the bottom and that every month they would go up and say up a month and the word, of course, would get out when we were going to do that. And there's one, well, three guys got hit. There was a changeover point where the ones would come down, they would meet, but they always used the same place. And it turned out it was mine. There's a guy by name of Larry Schmidt Well, there were three guys Schmidt is the one who took a

CBU right next to his leg and absolutely shredded him And we went in well all three of the Americans that were up there were hit. Unfortunately, one of them thought we would leave him and threw a smoke grenade, which was tall grass and set it on fire. And fortunately, there had been a Huey that was at Chowdock and they came down and picked me up. And we went in and repelled him, not knowing we were repelling into a minefield. But yeah, I had to pick, eventually lost his leg.

It also turns out that they had more than just the mines. I didn't learn until a number of years later that we were taking direct fire from a recoilless rifle that they had in there and actually didn't realize that it hit the helicopter when I put Schmidt on there and they were able to get down but it was unserviceable by the time it was. Oh man. But that was a failure of doing the same thing and thinking we did this, it'll be okay. You can keep doing these things without somebody else learning. The other, like I said, with Logan, our assumption that you could talk on the radio, well, we have people who could speak English pretty well that were just listening. I'm sure you run into that. I had mentioned earlier our problem. We had a fair number of

folks we knew that were not loyal to us at the time too. They said probably 10% of the... That's a lot. Yeah. It only takes one. Yeah. It only takes one. But yeah. Well, John, you had mentioned that there are, there are possible dangers to out of body experience. What, what would those dangers be? Well, again, you're in a highly theoretical area, and the question is, can you be identified being out there? There is an issue of, once you're out of your body,

can you get back? The cute story I tell about Bob and Roe, because people would come to him and say, you know, can you guarantee you can take you out of the money, out of my body? And he says, you know, oh, oh, good. And I says, you understand it's permanent. So, but, you know, can you get lost out there? I think, you know, probably not, but there are people who are concerned about those things. And it's certainly an area that we don't understand.

That's an interesting point. Has there been a report or do you know anybody that had troubles finding their way back? People have had trouble. I can't know if anybody's got lost because we haven't heard from them. Guess not. You have heard from people that got lost. Well, yeah, well lost. Or had trouble kind of wondering about, you know, can they get

back that vast majority of said I was there and most of them actually say they were in the immediate proximity to the physical. But there are others who literally go off into the stars and really? Come back, yeah. Could you share with us an example of that? I'm not one specific, but I've certainly heard stories. They talk about being out of their body and usually going up through the ceiling or through the roof and outside and then getting, you know, just like in the movies and it gets farther and farther away.

But then you also usually transition to a different kind of scenario. It's not so much a where, but what's going on and all of that. I've actually heard about, I've heard people do this while under psychedelics multiple times. Do you consider a psychedelic out of body experience and a near death out of body experience the same thing? Well, the short answer would be don't know and you'd have to know the specifics. Now, one of the key things about NDE's normally is it's like a critical emotional response. And when I was president of IONS, you would get letters and say,

they'd often say, well, I wasn't dead, but, and they would describe these experiences. And the caveat is, but it was like yesterday. So the difference, I think, is in how they're remembered, because many of the psychic experiences, you go, well, yeah, it's kind of weird, but like dreams, it kind of dissipates over time. For near-death experience doesn't dissipate. It's just like, you know, people write, it was yesterday and- It's ingrained. We were just screaming yesterday,

Vietnam was yesterday. So there are events that are implanted more strongly than others. What about, you'd also mentioned something about possible dangers when remote viewing into different dimensions? Into what? Into different dimensions. Yeah, well, I can't.

We're in a highly theoretical areas and don't know. I mean, we're going to say we're at the front end. The reality is some of this has been going on for centuries, just under other names. We didn't call it remote viewing per se, but we've had psychics that have done things, again, throughout human history, that they would do interventions and things out there. In general, I would say that the dangers seem to be more in the psychological arena of folks coming back or trying to integrate highly unusual experiences and not understanding how that fits into everyday life.

I would say that, for instance, with near-death experience, most people who have them rarely talk about them for years, takes them a while to integrate the reality as they know it and inculcate that into their lives. I saw things recently said, yeah, three to four years is kind of an average time for people to come forward and say, we have, now it is changing and that's mostly because society has changed quite a bit. When we first had IONs, I mean, there were no TV programs that discussed this. And when they did, it was one with Larry Higman, with Jeannie, you know, I dream

of Jeannie and things like that, which is very different from, no, this is a real experience or something that happened to me. And, yeah, part of the idea of coming to a rational aspect of that is, certainly was, you don't want to tell your doctor this because the answer usually is I can fix that. We'll give you a shot of something and it'll go away. And that's been very common, I know a number of people, they will also say there's a huge difference between talking to doctors and talking to nurses.

Nurses tend to be much more accepting of these sorts of things. Doctors come from a, in general, a much more materialistic worldview. Again, that's changing. It's amazing to me now is how many doctors, like Evan that we mentioned earlier, are coming forward and have had their own NDE's. This was obviously life-changing. Again, as a neurosurgeon, this can't possibly be, but here it is and now it's my experience.

Going back to remote viewing, I interviewed Joe McMonagall yesterday, as you know, and he had spoken about a remote viewing that he did on Mars. Have you ever heard of other remote viewers remote viewing another planet or possibly another galaxy? Well one of the critical things that happened in the early days is that this was with the Anglo-Swan. This is before the target, unbeknownst to everybody, was Jupiter.

Everybody knew about the rings on Saturn, and I forget whether the Voyager had gone out but had not gotten there yet. And so he came back. And, hey, he didn't even know it was not the target on the planet. I mean, it wasn't like he wants to go out and lay. It could have been anything in the world or in this case beyond. And he came back and reported the planet, all planet, and had rings around it. And it was Jupiter.

And the priest built that, yeah, bullshit. Saturn has rings, not Jupiter. And Voyager went by and, you know, Jupiter has rings that we never knew about. So that's one we have authentication. I do hear Stories of people who make it Very hard to believe there's one well There's a whole thing going on around now that you can probably find on the internet

About that we actually have a base on Mars and that this gets into the pedophilia thing and that the kids are taken to the bass there and I mean it just gets into things that are demonstrably false but does get into the folklore that's there. Wow, I've not heard of that. And I had had, in fact, there was an article that I got stopped that was being printed that said, quote, you think about the logistical aspects of maintaining a base on more than we haven't been there, but other than remote craft.

And the quote was, launches slip out of Cape Canaveral all the time. They said, no, when they launch half of Florida knows that there's launches. But this is the problem in all of these areas. There is so much BS in there that it's very hard to, and there's some percentage of people that are going to believe anything. So, very true. Very true. And I think we'll run into that with whatever we've talked about today, because many of you have talked about it kind of hard to believe and highly speculative.

Have you ever heard of anyone remote viewing into a no galaxy? No. I wonder if that would be possible. Well, there should not be any limits. That doesn't mean somebody has or has not done it. The question was, have I heard of it? No, but it's certainly within the realm of possibility.

Now, one of the issues that had come up early on regarding the accuracy of remote viewing had to do with the ability to verify the event that you had to have at some time, as we did with Jupiter, for instance. Yeah, we flew by and saw that it was accurate. So if you get into areas where you can't verify it, then it's in the, yeah, who knows, and Who knows? And going to at least at current time, foreign galaxies would be different. Maybe a black hole. That would be interesting.

Yeah. Well, there's a hole. They're talking about some of the scientific applications that are in many areas where you can, you know, send this, but we're talking about putting consciousness into an area where they can get accurate information. This has huge implications in all of healing. And though, but a guy, a guy we never mentioned was, you know, Jose Silva. I don't.

Silva Mind Control. Oh, it's a whole school. And Silva has since died, but his mind control, I mean, this is a global school that goes out. I was trained, I was actually a state representative in Hawaii for a number of years, quite a while ago. But Jose had grown up, basically, he was in a big family, father dies, he's the oldest child, so he has to pick up and make the best of it.

He worked in a barber shop, and the barber was interested in electronics. And so what he did, he says, like an extension course. And so Jose picks up and he says, can I look at these? Yeah, so he learned electronics from reading the barber store and whatnot. But he also found out that he had the technical capability to pick up on where errors were in electronic systems.

And he gets drafted, he goes in the Army, and he goes to electronic school. And almost everybody else is an officer. He's an enlisted man, but he did not know the mathematics necessary to continue, but he had this uncanny ability to fix the radios and things. So what he did was in his course, he traded information. The officers who'd all been to college would teach him math and he would teach them literally how to use their hands and find errors in electronic.

Now that later changed to doing similar sorts of things with human diagnostics and disease and very, very effectively. Interesting. I was just gonna ask you if you have heard of remote viewers, remote viewing into the human body to maybe diagnose cancer or... No, that's exactly what he was doing and teaching folks.

Very interesting. There are very, there's some people who seem to be more sensitive to, you know, the healing aspects of it. I'll give you a strange case, the guy that I was just talking to a friend I've known again for decades, I'll give the name of Melvin Morris. And Melvin Morris. Melvin was known for children and near-death experience, long story.

He ends up in jail in Delaware Prison and had visited him there. But there's a new program out on one of the things he had done was teach people to meditate the effects that it was having on a number of folks. And he said, how do you meditate in jail? Because jails are just noisy constantly. And he talked about the process of teaching people just to take, you know, short periods of time and be able to get information quieting the mind. The other thing that I heard when I'd visited him there is here he is teaching these prisoners how to do hands-on healing.

And, you know, this is, as he points out, you know, most of these are young black folks and he's an old white doctor, you know, so culturally, you know, totally different and they would come to him for advice on, you know, medical issues and things like that and they would teach him some of the cultural issues of how to survive in a prison. But, you know, they had the mutual relationship and was able to teach groups that just normally would not be

involved in any of these sorts of things. It had a profound impact on a number of them, particularly in drug addicts. Quite a few of them were heroin addicts and they were able to teach them how to overcome the addiction. Because even in jail, they would have the craving, but using these meditative techniques were able to avoid it. That's incredible. That is incredible. What an impact on the world that could make, right? I gotta take a minute and wrap my head around this.

Let's take a break. Okay. I want to give a big thank you out right now to all the Vigilance Elite patrons out there that are watching the show right now. I just want to say thank you guys. You are our top supporters and you're what makes this show actually happen If you're not on vigilance lead patreon, I want to tell you a little bit about what's going on in there So we do a little bit of everything

There's plenty of behind-the-scenes content from the actual Sean Ryan show on top of that Basically what I do is I take a lot of the questions that I get from you guys or the patrons and then I turn them into videos So we get right now. There's a lot of concern About self-defense home defense crimes on the rise all throughout the country actually all throughout the world And so we talk about everything from how to prep your home how to clear your home How to get familiar with the firearm, both rifle and pistol. For beginners and advanced, we talk about mindset, we talk about defensive driving.

We have an end of the month live chat that I'm on at the end of every month where we can talk about whatever topics you guys have. It's actually done on Zoom. You might enjoy it, check it out. And if Zoom's not your thing, or you don't like live chats, like I said, there's a library of well over 100 videos on where to start with prepping, all the firearm stuff, pretty much anything you can think of that's on there. So anyways, go to www.patreon.com. vigilance elite or just go in the link in the description.

It'll take you right there. And if you don't want to and you just want to continue to watch the show, that's fine too. I appreciate it either way. Love you all. Let's get back to the show. Thank you. How many guys out there are worried about brain health?

You know, all we hear about is fitness. Everybody's getting ready for a bikini season because spring's right around the corner. I'm personally more concerned about my brain. You look around, you see all these brain diseases that are getting out of control. I'm gonna take everything I can to improve

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It's good for your brain. And I saved the best for last. Most of you know this. My favorite supplement at Laird's is performance mushrooms. Has a ton of mushroom extract. Super, super good for your brain. Take it every single day, sometimes multiple times a day. These are my five favorite supplements from Laird Superfoods.

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and now we want to move into LabCom. What is LabCom? Well, there's an intermediate step, and that's at the Army and Maturial Command. And what had happened is that, of course, the Navy has had the Office of Naval Research, and the Army had just decided

to integrate all the Army laboratories that were kind of disparate. So they put them under a laboratory command, which is what it was. Now at the time, do you know the color of money? Green. No. Let's not get into that. That's too, this is, but the color of money, I mean,

when Congress appropriates things, it comes down with certain characteristics assigned to it and whatnot, and the P6 account, see, you wanna know? And the other one, we were working on the P2 account, which is the intelligence funding. So when I moved to laboratory command, or, well, actually, Army of Chirol Command, we're working the 6-3 account, which is R&D money. And I was interesting.

I was executive. This is one of the areas where strange things happen. The Army was looking for the next big X. They had just done the big five. That was the Abrams tank and the Bradley and the helicopters that had come out, the Apache and that, and then the missile, Patriot missile. And oh, it was the Black Hawk Apache and Patriot. And so the question was, okay,

those are just getting fielded. You know, what's the next step? just getting fielded, you know, what's the next step? And I was the military guy in the office that was running this at Army Materiel Command. I don't know if you want to digress because this gets into the serendipitous kinds of things. Let's do it. There's a guy who's working that program and I know it's in trouble because I'm handling all the paperwork that's coming through. I'm working for an SES. I've still a Lieutenant Colonel at the time with no hopes of promotion. But I had been saved from the INSCOM,

the mill, or Intel folks who would have ground me up in a heartbeat, who were very much not happy with any of these things that were going on. I mean, it was quite a battle. And then I said, my boss had been forced out of the military over that. So I'm watching the paperwork and this program. And the guy who's running us out on doing a tour was all over the country, had laboratories,

surveyed mostly civilian laboratories laboratories doing all the work. And looking at it, I'm seeing some memos come through from our three star boss and they're dripping in blood. And I'm going, Harry, well, here's his last name, you better get back here. Oh no, no, I'm going to go on. I name. You better get back here. Oh, no, no, I'm gonna go on. I said, you better get back here. And he says, no, no, I'm going out. So I get a call instead of supposed to meet with Dr. Haley. And then with the three starstar level, they asked me questions like, where do you live? Kind of a strange question here. I was in Springfield, Virginia. And they said, oh, by the way, next Monday you have this program.

And it was huge. I mean, what I asked about the color of money is basically a 6-3A program that covers billions. Now, I didn't control that, but you had oversight over all of the laboratories that were doing these things independently. And they say next Monday it's yours. Wait a minute. How did we end up here? I ended up writing a plan that frankly got me promoted. And the simple words, it was the new thrust is what it was called. It was going to be what is the next big kind of thing. And the thing that worked was, I said,

new thrust is a process as opposed to a thing. It's a procedure for how do we transition from early R&D into research or engineering development and those sorts of things. So I had the step that was between pure R&D and research or engineering development. So this is a huge step in that. And I went out to this guy's office in Tyson's corner. I'm looking at who's office is this. And I said, it's yours. And I said, any four star general saw this, he'd get killed. I mean, we literally had the Shenandoahs, the mountains,

and they had leased. And that was part of the problem. They had spent an awful lot of money and overhead and things like that. But really nice. So working those programs and then the Army and the Infinite Wisdom decided that they ought to bring the laboratories together and have one command, a two-star level command that had oversight over that.

And part of that was the ASCO, or the Advanced Systems Concept Office. Now, if you had to understand is that, GS-15s that worked for me. I mean, each of them had major sectors and we were looking at a big stuff with precision guided munitions. Remember, we're talking the 80s now, we're nowhere near where we are now in technology. This is the stuff that's evolving.

Had a whole RISTA component, reconnaissance and target acquisition or surveillance target, reconnaissance had C4I, command and control communications, how computers were now being integrated, everything, and all of the tactical directed energy. These were lasers, microwaves, and then particle beams were part of it. And again, we got to remember the technology was nowhere where it was then. in. So anyway, I ended up working for a couple of different two-star generals there, but that was the thrust of it. Again, very straightforward. It was the cutting edge of technology in the late 80s. Interesting. Where did you go from there?

Retirement. Retirement. Yeah, what happened? Position became vacant and we had talked before about military personnel center. Well, they don't like it. I said they had been passed in all of these positions from general to general and them being told now, you know,

fix it. And so they came up with a position that basically had to be full colonel and breathe. And I said, you got to be shitting me, right? I mean, all of the super high tech stuff and then get that. No, not happening. Yeah, yeah. So you retired? Yeah. And, didn't know where he had to see up until this,

well, back up a bit when I was, yeah, at Army Materiel Command, the colonels board was meeting, and I had zero probability of getting promoted. I mean, I knew that. As I mentioned earlier, I had done two tours ever in the infantry, and technically I'm being evaluated as an infantry officer and not commanded a battalion,

had done all this wild and wonderful stuff. I mean, it got good efficiency reports because the people that I had worked for, you know, that's what they want to do. But now I got a call from that three star and said, oh, by the way, congratulations. You got to be kidding me. I was already thinking on the outside, ego wouldn't take getting passed over.

But I mean, your promotion rate was about 30% or something. So that's why I say the probability was just not there. So it came in. So, okay, need to rethink this. I did those jobs and then got out and had a bit of a digression, but it was offered a very good job with one of the big contractors. But because of what they offered, it had to go to the CEO to be signed off. So I'm waiting.

And what happens, that's why I mentioned Oak, a friend of mine, Oak Shannon, who's in the Navy, but working at Los Alamos is having a retirement party. So Los Alamos has posted interest for a job, so I'll go take that because it's a good way to go to the party, right, and have them pay for it. So I went out to the party, and it did interview, of course, with the job. And damned it, they don't come back and make an offer, counter offer. The morning at the party, the officer, the personnel guy from the—one of the major ones calls me and said, okay, it's been approved. And I go, well, sorry about that, but I need to think about it. And the difference, by the way, was not money,

it was the difference in vacation time. The land wall was under government rules. And the problem is when you transition to civilian industry from the military, you're starting as if you're a new kid coming in, you got to build up. And so I said, the answer wasn't up. I went to Los Alamos instead because of the party. Wow. What, how did it go at Los Alamos? How did what? How did it go at Los Alamos? That's a, that's a location with a lot of, well, mystique around it.

Now, I had been there a number of times before, and particularly with Subalbines. I mean, we did lots of, and lots of very, very high tech. Now, you're talking a national lab, for those who don't know, this is basically a nuclear weapons lab. It's you know kind of the premier way in Sandia, where the premier labs in the area was critical at this juncture, Cold War ends. Now that was critical because up until that time as a nuclear weapons lab, Mana was provided.

You never had to question whether or not you needed money or what it would be. Cold War ended when we had the peace dividend that we spent too quickly. And so all of a sudden you had to compete in areas that you never competed before. I mean, this was at the highest level. Frank C. Sandia and Livermore were eating our lunch there, but that was because of the upper level thing. So I went in to do one job and got siphoned off into a kind of a generic military applications

directorate. And what happens there is we have a number of critical things that come on. We'd had urgent fury, which is, Grenada had just cause. And we're looking, I'm looking at what's going on in the world and how do you wanna approach it from a technology perspective? And it was clear to me at least, is that we needed a whole different set of weapons opportunities. And it comes out frequently. You can't kill your way out of these things. And you looked at, particularly in Just Cause, you're going into Panama, our bitches with Noriega and his henchmen,

not with the general Panamanian people. You got big families with long memories. And you really, you don't want to minimize fatalities on what's going on right now, you know, in Gaza, I've got to make exception to that. But it was, the military perspective is not about killing. It's about imposing will. How can you get the adversary to do what you want them to? You don't necessarily want them to.

In the past, we've talked about and have had wars of annihilation. So when you get into World War II and how you went about it, you literally were annihilating the adversary. And now the kinds of conflicts that we're developing called for totally different rethinking on application of force. So it was from that that I had came up with the concept of what I call non-lethal weapons defense.

Now, the police, of course, had this issue already. And was it Walker? There was a critical case that had just emerged where you couldn't shoot a fleeing felon. And that changed the police. So they were already starting to look at that. I was looking at it from a much broader concept from, you know, application of force, but it was from

the simple stuff you know about, like tasers and beanbag bullets and pepper ball and all that up to what we called strategic incapacitation. How do you take down a nation-state and do that without a casualties or minimal casualties at not secondary and tertiary casualties? If you take out the power system, you know, how long are you going to bring it up before you start having secondary fatalities? So, we started developing that and that led to lots of studies and conferences that I ran and NATO studies and eventually to the Council on Foreign Relations and participating with them, Science Board, defense science board. Can you get into some of the specifics

with some of the non-lethal weapons that were developed? Well, the whole concept, yeah. I wrote this whole book, the first book that I, well, that's the second book, was called Future War, non-lethal weapon warfare in 21st century. And everybody thinks about this, generally in terms of like I say, the anti-personnel soft tasers and all this.

And I did know the guys who did tasers and hell. But when you got into the more complex applications, like how do you take down a country? Go show. And it can be done. That gets into the more sensitive system. But a lot of it did have to do with application and electromagnetic systems and things of that nature.

Can you get into that or is that stuff sealed? Well, the problem there is I'm primarily dated because I worked at Lannell and then I retired from there in 1995, the second time. And yeah, no, I was later with the Army Science Board and some others who were overlooking into those systems. But yeah, I just wait. I mean, what we've done with lasers, lasers have always been the great promise, infinite magazine and all of that.

Microwaves took on just mythical proportion. Every study I was on, I was finding how many people how you can just, you know, post power. And there's a lot of stuff you can do, and it has come a long way. The same with lasers, the efficiency has increased in power and those sorts of things. So it's, you know, but where we are today,

I'm sure light years ahead of where we were when we were just developing. Most people don't know it, but my com, which was missile command, I think it was in the 1960s, actually cut a wing off an airplane in flight. No kidding. Yeah. That was a CO2 laser at the time, but don't realize that these things went back and it's taken a hell of a work on tons and tons of money to get to the capabilities that exist today. Where was that laser fired from? Oh, that was Redstone. That was Redstone? Redstone Arsenal, yeah.

Right down the road in Alabama? Yeah. Was it fired from Earth? I don't know. This was, remember, these were not fielded systems. We're talking, again, basic R&D. OK. But it was just that you had the capability

to test it at the time and yeah that far back To your knowledge if we use these weapons. Oh We have I mean they've been developed Kind of a classic example I was controlling two different laser technologies. One was totally in the black world and the other one was white but classified. And the big mistake was the one that was white world but classified or black, they went out and developed a consistency that supported it. Said, hey, we want these things. See, a lot of what my job was, people say, what do you do?

I said, well, I'm a translator. And by that I meant I would tell the military community, here's what the science can do. I would tell the civilian laser community, here's what the military want. This is what we needed to do. And so this was one of the key areas. So what had happened is that one group developed something that became Stingray, and it was a counter-laser system.

Now, remember, we're still talking battle days. The problem, or a huge problem, in the Soviet battlefield in Europe was we could kill the tanks, but they came with lots of friends and neighbors. So the issue is how do you stop a number at a time? Stingray was designed to go out and blind the lasers or blind the sensor systems so you had enough time to hit it with hard munitions and things. But the other technology, frankly, was better. And they finally decided to uncover it.

And the Requirements community looked at that and said, but I know this. So the Requirements decided to field it. Won't get into individuals, but anyway, it went over. And as a general, who had lost the leg, so he was sensitive to those things. And basically, I'm not gonna use it, I'm afraid of, because they were potentially blinding. They were designed, again, as a counter-sensor system. But I remember giving briefings on the Pentagon,

and Max Thurman was the vice chief of staff at the time and he'd get dramatic, you know, I got eyeballs or draining down. That's not what you want. It's the whole issue on blinding lasers. But we had already known that Iran had been using Soviet systems against Iraq and blinding, intentionally blinding folks. So I ran into constantly these issues on legality as well as ethical applications. The sideline, we could not win World War II today, if we applied the rules that we fight under today with what we did in World War II and people forget that. Yeah. Yeah. Very, very true. Different set of rules these days. No doubt about it. And so, so from Los Alamos, you went to US Socom? No, no, I retired a second time. Yeah, no, I retired. I was out.

was out. This is when I went to actually to NIDS and that's when I called and then the thing came up and position. Well again, he gets back to my boss, the guy who was the Inspector General of the Army, the one who I had moved under, you know, when they moved out from the Inspector General's office while I had kept in touch with him, he created something called MPRI. I don't know if you're familiar with him, but it was one of the big beltway bandits that put together. So we were still in contact. In fact, when I wrote Future War, he was one of the four. He had become, he was brought in as a Bush the Elder to fix the link leaks in the White House. And so kind of stayed plugged into those, but he had this private company that's coming out.

And I had called him and said they were looking for somebody with the skills that I had before. And he called him and said, don't let this one get away. Next thing you know, I'm in route to Afghanistan. And as a contractor there, as the job title is very grandiose, or mentor to the Minister of Defense, and this one's for Himes there. Then after I came back, then there were people there who had known some of the things we'd written before and people had moved around.

And then the issue with the JSO came up and I was a non-resident senior fellow there. I would like to talk about some of the stuff you did in the ATIP program. Which? ATIP. It was not associated with ATIP or all that. the ATIP program. Which? ATIP. It was not associated with ATIP or all that. Do you have knowledge of it?

Hmm? Do you have knowledge of it? Can you talk about the beginning of it? That's much, oh no, no, no, no. The apples and oranges. We're now jumping back a few decades. Okay. Yeah.

Yeah, when, Okay. Yeah. Yeah. When, um, yeah, this was during the period I was at AMC. Um, people got together and we started asking questions like what is, what's going on with the UFO? Probably we had heard all of the rumors, some of which are still kind of breaking today. And so I said, okay, well, let's do it. And so I set up a group. It was interagency. It had, all the services, various people from the intelligence community and a fair number from aerospace industry. And the requirements were that you had to have the TSSEI clearances. You had to have interest in the area. You had to know who you were.

And, like I say, these things keep getting interrelated. Subalbine has moved to BDM as a vice president of a foreign intelligence, I think it was, at BDM at the time, which is another one of the big don't-way bandits. And so I was still in touch with them. Daytime I was running the New Thrust program, I think by that time. And so I discussed what we want to do. So they were, he was, Jill Braddock was the B of the BDM. So I went to Joe and told him what we wanted to do.

And he says, okay, so it gave us the space so we had the skip to run the thing. And, you know, we had a number of sessions, there's stuff on the internet that, even I don't have the record up there. There was a requirement, no written records, and that, and everybody paid their own way, so it was unfunded at the time.

And obviously that was not adhered to because I found out people went back, wrote notes, and have since shown up on the internet. But we were going on and on looking at the whole UFO project. The approach was very different from what you're seeing today. My experience was we had groups of people who should have known going, didn't you do that? I thought you did that, you know, isn't that you? And I mean, everybody knew the basics, but everybody seemed to think that somebody else

was doing it. And so it put together a basic briefing and move higher and higher and higher up the food chain. Ended up in the secretariat and three and four star general, all the first one was a three star general. He was the guy I worked for because I had run several meetings and I was, I can't let him hear about this in the Washington Post. So went in and said, I got to confess, here's what I've been doing.

I said, well, that's pretty interesting, but we better tell my boss, who's the four star out of the other building, and he's a little gesticient. And going like, well, I wonder how this is going to go. So they set it up and I meet with him and goes, well gee, that's pretty interesting. You know, how can I help? And I said, well, we're meeting, I think I was in San Antonio. There's a series of four stars and I've got to give a briefing. I would like to meet your counterpart from the Air Force and got the handoff there and

then went back to Air Force, I think it was Systems Command, I'm not sure, but these were done in Andrew's Air Force bases where they were scheduled and ended up doing the briefing there. And he goes, why is this green? It seems like it ought to be here, didn't it? He says, well, I'm not sure.

Go at that time, Space Command, or the two star command at El Segundo of LAX. And so went out there and met with the commander and he goes well that's pretty interesting you can tell it was Don Catina may still be around who ended up being the four-star commander of Space Command late when it became the command went out but he says tell him him, Katina says, yes. Uh, and I had some Air Force folks with me who were supporting it because we had been at NORAD and places like that. Now the problem that I found was that at NORAD, people at lower levels,

they were seeing stuff. Can you, what is NORAD? Oh, North American Air Defense Command, Cheyenne Mountain in Colorado. So, but what you found out pretty quickly was that reporting this stuff was not career enhancing. I mean, nobody wanted to believe you. Now, interesting when you jump ahead to laboratory command, my first boss there was Jim Circe, who's the major general.

Where that's significant is he had come from NORAD because, you know, the nature of that, you know, they're on high alert all the time and if anything's coming. So their staff officer, the senior officer of the day is a Brigadier General. And Cersei had come from there as a BG. This is where I run into the difference between things are being you know, being reported

now. He thought I was crazy. I mean, you know, definitely never heard anything. So I think what you saw was a difference between guys who are running the sensor systems and the upper level staff who said, yeah, they periodically get unusual phenomena, but you don't want to be the guy who gets associated with it. And we ended up eventually at SDI, then Star Wars, and I met with the commanding general of Star Wars.

Now, it's interesting, this had been set up by another general. Normally when you're operating at that level, you send, you know, read aheads and that's so they know what you're coming and talk about. That had not happened here. And I went in and I had an entourage from the various agencies with me.

And again, he doesn't know what it is. So I started out with UFO 101. And we were talking for a little bit. And all of a sudden he stops. And we were like, wait, wait, wait. Who are you guys really? We went back around the room and tried the agency. So we sort of said, know, said, yeah,

oh, this is really what you get. But the point there is, here's the guy who is setting up the strategic defense command, and the strategic defense of the Star Wars. And remember the rumor mill has it that this was to fight each and stuff like that, who clearly had no idea what we were talking about. And by the time we were done, it was an hour or two later, he goes, okay, well, you got

my attention, but I can't touch this. And he had a $5 billion budget. It was the biggest budget in all of DOD, which is where we went to, because we were now going to transition to let's make this serious official funded program. And his point was, I can't touch it. If I get caught doing this, he says, no luck. I'm doing some hairy stuff now, and this is in the straight world technologies that are out there.

A lot of debate on whether he was kinetic kill, I hit to kill missions or could we use DE in space etc. But he said if I get caught you know, I'm gonna get crucified. And you know again he had the biggest budget. I think it tells a story but the thing he used to get me on the Pentagon so I'm going to go find the money. Like there's pots of money. No. What it means is I'm going to steal it from somebody else's program and he was the target kind of across the board. But he said, look, if you can tell me what to look for, I can include that in the algorithms and was willing to go that far,

but not to have, you know, kind of officially be involved, which is kind of, this was counterintuitive to all of the things that you're hearing today. Yeah. What kind of stuff are you guys studying at the Advanced Theoretical Physics program? Well, we were, you know, this was a long time ago. Our thinking of it was quite different. We were looking at physical things. We were looking at the key incidents that had happened around the world. What were those incidents? Oh, we're talking hours of briefings here now.

I'll give you a, probably one of the biggie was the Tehran incident with Jirani, where this was a case where they've got a huge UFO that's being seen from Tehran Airport. They were launched, this is by the being seen from Tehran Airport. They were launched. This is, by the way, the Shaw still in power. I mean, just kind of key here. So they send up two interceptors.

And what's interesting is the, it goes for, you know, what am I looking for? You know, you'll know when you see it. Now this is the thing that's being seen by the tower in Tehran. They've got radars confirming that there's something up there. So no doubt about it. The guy goes in and he goes, well, got amni-missiles. Um, they're going to shoot it.

When, when he does that, turns off his weapons panel. They're going to shoot it. When he does that, turns off his weapons panel, gets in closer, and all the communications are shut off, but he's back. He's still got control plane. Bring it in. He comes back out, and the communications comes back up. It's interesting, this guy is still with the Shaw's Air Force, he's still on but he's made three stars. He's one of the ones that survived the

transition. Now what was, there were two things that were interesting to me, one I don't know, is did he flip a switch? So we now have target acquisition on this physically sending a signal out that the UFO was picking up on or it was that I thought about it and they turned him off. Now again I said I was running the directed energy stuff right? I know how to turn you off. Don't know how to turn you back on again. And so that was really critical.

Also some things came out and chased him and some other stuff went down to the desert. And so it was, you know, a major incident was technically classified at the time, became unclassified after the shawl left and that. What do you mean went down into the desert? Now, there was something that came out of the big UFO that went down. They don't know, but we do know that people on the ground saw something coming down.

There's been several reports of that, right? There's been several reports since of UFOs going into the ocean without splash. Oh, this is, the main craft is in the sky. This is something that came out of it, something that chased them, and some stuff that went down. But the important thing was that, I guess there was some shepherds out there

who reported seeing something coming down. Now, what you're talking about here is the transmedium things. That's one of the applications and yeah it's not just ocean and remember the when Brandon Fugl was here and we met with him a couple times after that, but there is something in the last season of Secret of Skinwalker Ranch where they're seeing something that comes down, it's lights, and then gets into the mesa and comes out of the mesa. No, you can't follow it through the mesa, but the kind of assumption is whatever it is was going through the mesa,

which means transiting physical material, you know, that's kind of hard, which is a little different from underwater. Which is interesting, because you were studying this early on. Oh, well, one of the things I point out is that when the OSAP program came out and released their release, everything they said we knew 35 years ago. Easy.

All of them. What they have added to the puzzle is A, it's the court's official, but it's a new sensor system so you have more hard data. It's like when you have a favor and captain's name but well favor in particular you, where they're capturing it on cameras and so you have multiple, one of my key points is multi-sensor. So you're not saying some crazy guy or, you know, we didn't perceive it that, you know, you have multiple sensors that are catching these things. And one of the things that Dave talked about, looking down,

remember, he sees that it disappears, it turns up at his control point almost instantaneously. And they see it and it looks like it's communicating with something under water. And, oh dear. Oh, dear. I'm not watching him, but no, I was just at the Seoul Conference at Stanford University in Admiral, who's doing, that he's now retired. He was also the head of NOAA. But his interest is in the underwater stuff, because you do pick up things that are moving really fast.

Certainly not biologics. But that's a... As they point out, most of the ocean has not been mapped, you know, awful lot of space out there. a lot of space. But that was actually the cases that I think I heard of that were similar. And the reason they were classified may still be, I don't know, but was where they were. But this stuff was being reported, you know, 40, 50 years ago. Uh-huh. What are some of the other, what are some of the other incidents that you've studied? Oh, I think the biggest in my view was what's known as bentwaters or rendals from forest.

Um, yeah, Chuck Halt is probably the best guy on this. Uh, Chuck was the deputy base commander at, Waters and this is volumes written on the particular case but I found it very significant because of the number of people involved. And it's one of the few cases. Most of the time you study these things and the credibility, you know, this is one they get stronger over time. More and more people coming out and now they found one fairly recently, a radar confirmation that there was something over the base. And it was not a singular event. What I learned from Chuck later, this was, had been going on for a long time.

And it turns out this was almost like the ranch kind of thing where the events had been reported for decades. Just keeps happening. It just keeps happening. Oh, well, various kinds. I mean, some of them were lights in the sky and strange phenomena being reported. But the particular one here was,

and it started in late December, 1980. By the way, you should come back to Casual Endroom because it's interesting that that happened at the same night. But so this one's out there, and I see what they think is a plane has crashed or something off the base and so Roger Penison and John Burroughs and little one go out there and

Well, they have to This gets very sensitive now because you're leaving a military base and have to leave that these are air policemen leave the weapons behind because you know the SOFA agreement as to what you can and can't do and where you can do it. So they go out and it's interesting because years later I called Jim Peniston, who was a staff sergeant at the time. And I want to talk to you about the UFO, which was Oumina 1A Touched, and actually walked up on it. There's a heavy thing sitting on the ground.

It's in, like I said, late December. And what was interesting is there's actually indentations on the ground. And I've seen the plaster casts from this. So you had physical evidence of this thing sitting on the ground must have had weight. He talks about certain symbols that he saw and wrote those up. So, the first incident happens. A few days later, they're having the end of the year party, Christmas party, and Chuck is there, and they're about to give out the awards for, you know, being nice people and that. And he says, the provost marshal comes in, he says they're back.

He says, who's back? He says, UFOs are back. And the fact tells us both, but it was, I'll take care of this. One of the worst decisions you've probably ever made, you know, saying, I'm going to go out and we're going to resolve this. So he gets, I forgot who the sergeant was, who was with him who gets a radiact meters and things to check on radiation and whatnot. And he goes out,

they go outside the base and they use the radiact, sure enough, there's stuff above background noise. And here's this thing hovering out in the trees ahead of them, and it starts manipulating, staying away from them, then splits into five pieces and zips off, and as I recall, two of them come over and shoot a beam at his feet. And so he goes back to, he's recording this at the time of what's happening. And that eventually got released. And then the conventional wisdom was, oh, because of the periodicity to these lights that are appearing. And he says, it's got to be the lighthouse at

some distance away. And they went back and looked at it and said you can't see the lighthouse from there. But we have over 60 witnesses now. Are you familiar with the PRP, Personal Reliability Program? No. Okay. Well, again, the other aspect of what was not known at the time was that Bentwaters was the forward most nuclear storage area in Europe.

And supposedly this thing came over and it was shooting beams down into the storage area. And I had met with Chuck. Oh, I've now moved to Los Alamos and he was later, I had heard about this and I knew where he was as a civilian. I had set up lunch, liked to meet with him. And what he says is because nothing, so there was no debriefing or anything of that nature at the time. And he says, oh, I'm finally gonna get you brief

because I'm coming from Los Alamos. And though I'm there to ask questions and whatnot. He is convinced that a lot of his people were screwed with. After this, their careers in general did not fare well. Burroughs has had significant medical issues. And some of this does get into classified. I know they had trouble even getting his medical records. I think Kit got involved in even obtaining his medical records

because he was trying to address heart problems that he had. But again, it's the amount of witnesses, the physical witness, recurring event, pretty damn significant. But as I mentioned, the cashlander happens at the same time. In cash land rooms, a case where UFO was seen, importantly, it's fairly close to Houston, a remote area, to women and a boy or driving down the road. And here's this UFO that's kind of strutting in, as opposed to, you think, flying out or something. And there are, I think, flame out or something. There are, depends on the count, 22, 23 helicopters that are supposedly circulating around it.

Now this is, I think it's the 27th of December. And if you know anything about what goes on between Christmas and New Year's, basically nothing. So anyway, what happens is they stop the car and they get out, Benny Cash runs around in front of it, Landrum opens the door, stands behind the little boy, Cody gets out, looks, he gets scared, runs around and jump back. He's not grown on, they've talked to these issues. So the point was that they were exposed to some kind of radiation and Betty Cash would got out in front, in fact later died from leukemia, but she has whole body radiation. Landrum not so much, but she's standing with the car door so it's partially blocking it. And Cody, the

boy who runs around, jumps back so he's got minimal. So everything physically fits. Fast forward a few years. They sue the government, specifically the Air Force over this event because of danger. And the supposition here is this was some kind of test vehicle that was out there in the radiant and particularly because of the helicopters. What happens is that the Air Force looks at it and says, ain't ours, and by size those are Army helicopters. So it comes to the Army IG.

Well, remember I used to work there. So the guy who gets the case comes to me and a couple other people who were radiation experts. And he went out and did a fantastic study, I mean very extensive, and what we know, the only military helicopter was a Huey who had been in the area earlier in the day but had landed back at Fort Hood before this event occurred. And they went so far as to hit the Marines, and the Marines were awful Florida. They were not in the area where they might have had Chinooks or something. And the point is they weren't ours.

And even after extensive search, you could not account for the helicopter, the radiation, the UFO, but absolutely certain that it happened. Their description and injuries are totally consistent with the story that they told. There was no doubt the event happened. What do you think? What do you make of this? I have no idea. Like I say, I was one of the people that George Soran, who was the IG who got the case, talked to him. And to this day, I've talked to him a couple of years back when this came up again.

And just said, you know, know, this was the problem. And again, my UFO book, the first line is that I wrote as UFOs are real. The last paragraph is whatever this is, it is more complex than we can imagine. Are there any other incidents that you feel were extremely significant? Oh, hundreds. Can you go into some more?

A fated giant case. This is one where, well, first of all, the northern cheer sightings were ones that were going on across the northern United States. These were all a missile base with sidelight. One of the things that was interesting, I think it's in Blue Book, was one of the reports from a young patrolman, an air patrolman without guarding the base, and he reports the missile. The caveat was the only reason we report, he reported this because he's new and hasn't seen him before. The point is everybody is seeing this stuff.

Now this particular case, Bob Salas was one of the, he was the missile control officer, but air patrolmen on top are seeing UFOs and they call down and says, you know, what do we do? And all of a sudden he goes, I haven't got time to talk about that. Missiles are going offline. And seven to eight missiles go offline. And so he calls back to NORAD headquarters and goes, I misspoke and said, we haven't got time to talk to you. This is an echo in November.

The site's micked up. He says, the other site is already down 10 for 10. Now we are talking here, if you know the nuclear triad, this is, you know, you want significant when you're, now the MPDI is two missiles, but basically you'd get one every six months in the entire wing. And here you've got, you know, 17, 18 down simultaneously. And, you know, there's no doubt about it. Now, I do know what happened, because I talked to most of the people involved, that they went, I mean, this was a WTF, right? A huge, and it not like it went unnoticed and they went through and looked at every possibility

and could not come up with a, I mean, they did tests on, it was EMP, it was the short, and nobody has ever come up with a solution. I might mention, it's not just us. This is one where you have the Soviet. This is where George Knapp gets involved. He went over, he'd been in the Soviet Union and Russia later. In Ukraine there's another one where their case is a little different. UFO hovers up here for hours with hundreds of witnesses. They don't set the missiles down, they start spinning them up. So and this guy's you know the launch office is about to start World War 3 and I can't

stop it and again this thing has been hovering there for hours, plenty of witnesses, and then all of a sudden it shuts off. And now the difference that I think is critical here is that, see, we trusted our launch control officers. Soviets did not. And so the Soviet system was centralized. It had to have been, in order for that to happen, it had to run from Moscow. And obviously it didn't.

Ours was central, so it was shot down, theirs run up. And this was one he had brought those files out. But yeah, I mean, I don't know how much more significant than you get than screwing with nuclear weapons. Yeah, no kidding. What, if you had to have thought about where did these come from? Are they coming from the nuclear weapons? If you had to have thought about where did these come from? Are they coming from?

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I think that's the wrong question. What is the bright question? Well, see, I come down against the wrong question. What is the bright question? Well, I come down against the ET hypothesis. That's the extra-hytothos. Little gray guys from Zeta-Reticuli coming here. Words that we're using now have to do more with ultra-terrestrial. My point would be that there are a number of possibilities, interdimensional temporal distortion, time travelers and things like that.

Now this gets into, if you haven't been involved in this, it's sounding really crazy. That's okay. But as you look at these things, you go, one of my points is that there are reports of incidents between humans and sentient non-humans throughout the entirety of human history and in all cultures. My pet phrase is, if they fly in a little tin cans, that's kind of a new wrinkle to a very old story. Yeah, when you say this, well, if you get the skin mark around, the beings of some kind moving

back and forth through dimension, if you're using an interdimensional construct, the where you know overcomes all the issues of how you get there from here and whatnot, though I do think you can probably get superluminal. I know a lot of folks will disagree with that, but it gets away from the whole problem of like I said little gray guys from Zeta reticuli You're back to your fundamental issue of consciousness What about it where are you going Well if consciousness creates matter and that, that this is some interaction on consciousness that, you know, beyond our understanding at this point, certainly.

So you think... Well, remember, as I said, not just in, you know, the sensing, you get into ghosts and the spiritual beings into kind of a host of things that have been reported for millennia. Yeah, let's move into, we'll come back, I wanna come back, we're gonna revisit that question when we get into your time with Bigelow at Skimwalker Ranch, but I would like to move into some of the,

since we're, let's move into some of the paranormal stuff. We have been to over a hundred, you've been to over a hundred countries studying this stuff. And so I know you had a lot of, you had a lot of time visiting shamans throughout the world. What sparked your interest in shamans? Well, again, this has stopped to sort of evolve. And of course, the history of Shaman.

One of the big things of course is, ayahuasca, my wife is sort of a devotee there and have been at a lot of ceremonies in different places. I think she's the one who really from the Shamanic and studying from the religious aspect has kind of driven it. And in fact, we're getting ready to go to the UK to Arthur Finley College to teach transmedianship in a few weeks.

Really? Yeah. Interesting. Well, we'll get into that too. Okay, but the meaning of it again is, of course, ayahuasca and what I've seen there, how much you want to discuss that, but let me jump to where I think you'd want to go and that is where you see physical kinds of things and people ask me what's the most unusual circumstance.

And that's probably in West Africa, studying voodoo and just to me voodoo's real. And voodoo is not just a religion there. It's an entire way of life. And the things we saw with the shamans, just to fight the laws of thermodynamics, they would stand on the fire, eat the fire, sit in the fire, and come away unscathed. I am videotaped a lot closer than we are. So it's hot. So there's no doubt about, you know, a heat or radiation off of it. I've got videos, one in particular, where this head shaman is there and he puts a thing on his tongue and his face just appears in there. Now, critical issue.

Got long gen whiskers? Don't singe. Now, the other aspect was they brought out two kids that were about 10 years old. And he's going to pass the power to them. He goes like this and touches them. And they're, no, he just say they're not fully initiated yet, so I had no, but they're still handling fire in ways that would burn out. By the way, back in, you know, you want to circle back and Tony Robbins, one of the things that

we did with him was fire walking. This is back in the in the in scum days. So, see all of these things keep getting integrated in ways that are hard to understand. But we did fire walking. And what was your goal? What was your goal with exploring shamanism throughout the world? Just was it just curiosity? We say worse than in past tense.

Is it curiosity? Yeah, I wish I knew. I mean, these things just keep evolving. And there are some things that are coming up that are proprietary that are going to be changing. It's at least on the level of Grush talking about UFOs and do we have any. But there are some big things on the horizon that hopefully our understanding of consciousness. I don't think you can totally understand all of this. Again, the issues of complexity come up pretty quickly. of complexity come up pretty quickly. You'd mentioned ayahuasca ceremonies.

What are some of the things that you've experienced and why, let me rephrase this question. What is the connection with psychedelics and the altered consciousness? First of all, I do not think the psychopharmacology answers the basic question. I wish we know DMT, demethyltryptamine is the supposedly psychoactive substance. Having said that, the things that I've witnessed, I have seen people take huge amounts and have no effect. I've seen them take minor amounts and have transformational effects. That's why I say the psychopharmacology, because that's based on you take X amount

with X body weight or condition, we understand the result. Victoria, I mean, she will say that the goddess or the mother ayahuasca calls, that it's literally a calling. Mother ayahuasca calls, it's literally a calling. And I've seen it under a number of circumstances and we did a lot in Peru and near Aqitos.

I have been in Ecuador and again in Santo Dimey, which is a rapidly evolving religion. That was in Brazil. Having said that, we've seen other things in Ombando and Conteble, this many of them have similar kinds of things, some without any external stimuli. One of the strangest events, and one that's a whole segment on Brazil in the book.

We had a tend to Ombanda ceremony, about 300 folks, about 10 gringos. There's about 300 folks, about 10 gringos. This is near Corte Teba, a little city of 3 million people you never heard of in southern Brazil. There's lots of those, the people don't realize how big the country is, how many these cities are. But anyway, they called forward and said, does anybody want a healing? And Victoria always jumps out. And the head voodoo priestess is going down. Young woman probably in her 20s and she goes like this.

And Victoria says something about that if we're with possession, we're talking about becoming possessed by another spirit. And now, this is a group that's used to seeing spirit possession take place as part of the religion. They don't see gringos possessed. And so Victoria is all spinning. I mean, you talk about stopping the show, that was it. And one of the guys comes over, says, well, I was taking pictures.

They say, you're a reporter. I said, that's my wife. He says, she'll be OK. And does not remember anything that happened but is you're talking about total full body possession and you do see some of these things with the psychoactive substances so these things get intertwined and I don't think there's direct causal links that necessary take that because he has had you know pretty profound transformational experiences in the ayahuasca arena. I've tried it a couple times and not a fan.

I want to emphasize this will never be a recreational drug. There are side effects, politely called purging, sometimes running at both ends. You're not going to do this at a party. Ah, definitely there were things going on and you're seeing colors that probably don't exist. I do recommend people look at. We admit the ayahuasca artists, if you walk to the paintings, they're about as close to what you might see in that state. But nothing I could say is unexplained, but I have seen people get really, really have

mystical types of experiences. And interestingly, they usually go all night, or a good bit of it, and then they stop. But the next day, a little hangover, or you know, and our friend is Ron Whelock, who's known as the Gringo Shaman. I do recommend, but he says, it is gonna end, it's interesting, you see people screaming and shouting and having, it's just terrible, next morning say,

that's exactly what I needed. I do think that there's an area that we need to be looking at in PTSD, by the way, one of the things. I was talking to the other Sean last night and program, you can see that Lisa Ling did one called This Is Life where she does look at this, Rod's involved. We've missed her by a day down in Keto's. But yeah, I guess the bottom line is the psychopharmacology doesn't answer it. Their position is that there's more than the cup and the

lip. Do you think you're able to tap into a higher consciousness? We have to describe higher there. I do certainly get into other sort of forms of consciousness. And my personal experience was seeing certain, and you just see it in the paintings as well, things that emerge there that seem to be kind of universal symbols that are indicative of cultures that they've never had contact with. And you go, how would, you know, where would that come from?

You could of course, you know, dream it up. But yeah, what's become popular, of course, now in the U.S. is micro dosing. We're doing it for some of the sessions we were in. Well, the Santo Dime, which is a all over religious ceremony, and then they go through the song. I think the first one, like 21 different songs that goes on for hours and hours. But I've been able to watch the folks there and it's, you know, they're definitely out of it in the kind of normal sense. Although one of the things I mentioned, because I do know like first time I tried, you can be very much aware of the current thing. So the saying of you've lost your senses, you're going to say something that not at

all, which you have, you still have control and make it, although you are exposed to other realities, senses as you might expect. Where do you think these realities come from? Where does reality come from? These alter, these other realities that you're experiencing on psychedelics, where do they come from? No, no, wait, wait. Are we talking about psychedelics or are we talking about reality? Because psychedelics would be a kind of a tiny subset. Well, you had mentioned people are experiencing.

What are they experiencing? Yes. Well, that's actually an interesting question. The short answer would be, don't know. Because are these other realities that they're now having access to? Or is this just something that's being generated in the mind? You know what? When you answer the question about reality,

remember we go back to when we say the physical arises from reality. So this is an experience that you normally have certain cognitive aspects to it, but that would be far from the saying, that's the cause or the... Downstairs we had had a short conversation about reincarnation.

I'd like you to talk about reincarnation. 25 words or less. 25 words or less. Well, what I was alluding to at the time was from near-death experiences that most of the people, I know most of the key researchers in the field and as the past president used to answer all kinds of letters and things on it. And the bottom line is, you know, the thing that makes the most sense from our perspective

is some form of reincarnation. Now when you get into that, I mean, this is kind of an hours and hours of speculation. One of the ones that comes up initially is, well, take a Hindu religion, or can you be an animal, you know, the sacred cows and all that. I think Buddha said he was a rabbit six times or something like that. So, you know, are there can you reincarnate in other forms? A natural one that comes up is, well, if here, what about other planets?

Now, one of the things like I said in the ET arena, is there extraterrestrial life beyond all reasonable doubt. And you don't have to expect that. That's pure numbers. Then was it 16th, 7th trillion, in habitable planets? I mean, the number just keeps going. And even if you're a pure materialist, you would have to say just purely chemicals getting together must have happened

some place in that, and then you go, well, does it happen simultaneously to our development, etc. But it says, yeah, there's intelligent life someplace in the universe. So if you extrapolate that to reincarnation, it say, well, does it have to be Earth? What form does it take? I mean, this gets into a really complex, again, cognitive approaches that if you want me to take it a step further for you.

I'd love for you to take it a step further. That, you know, it's not just that you say, well, I asked you the question and you didn't answer it. Who were you? And I ask a lot of people. A number of people say, well, I remember, you know, various aspects of things as if they're not. Suppose that you actually plan life and that, you know, what you're playing out, and then you get into the whole free will versus predestination conundrum. And what they would say is you have free will, you chose the life form that certain events are going to happen, that you're going to be afforded a chance to make decisions, and that's all the learning experience. And yeah, you'll make some bad decisions along the way. And maybe if you come back again,

you may not make that, but they say karma's a bitch. But yeah, I'd say the evidence has come out pretty strong that, by the way, I try not to get into people's religious beliefs and all that, and we get into NDEs, we go into this to pure, here's what the evidence says. So, I would emphasize here, what we're talking about is highly speculative, and I recognize that.

There are many people who have studied much more and of course there are whole religions based on the... by the way it was in a China of the Christian religion up until 566, 533 where it was voted out in Constantinople. And some people say that this is kind of a control missile, because if you believe in all the stuff in reincarnation and nothing's wrong, you say, what the hell, why don't I, you know, do lots of bad things, or things that feel good, or whatnot, that ethically you probably shouldn't, because, you know, it's a free ride. And although we'll say that's not the point. And this is when you get into what's the application or meaning of this.

I do a lot of work with mediums and have several, you know, the kinds of things that they're reporting highly accurately, I mean, certainly indicates that this is an approach and the reason you're doing whatever it is that you're doing is part of your evolutionary or learning process. Maybe Hindus are right, and we're going to move to Atman. Let's have the free will or predestination debate. What do you believe personally?

I believe it's certainly a conundrum and that there seems to be elements of both. It appears as if that what you're having is, again, certain lessons are provided and hopefully you will choose an evolutionary path that will help you and you might not have to come back and do that again. You certainly, when you get into, one of the big ones, I was talking to one of the main researchers just the other day, and of course the incident one that comes up in both of our backgrounds, that's why war. And sort of the bottom line is, could you need it? Because of the souls that have to evolve, that pay for what you did and life's taken and bad things done as opposed to,

as I think we both know, there are opportunities for great good in war. I mean, people do very heroic things that are self-sacrificing and things of that nature. But on the other things, re-bed things happen too. What do you think happens when you die? Well, I can say, again, I hate to get into this with, you know, because I hate to get into this with, because I don't want to interfere with people's religious beliefs. I would say the evidence is overwhelming

that consciousness continues in some form. Now the question is what form? I would think the biggest issue sort of unresolved is consciousness survive or does personality survive, which are different issues. I mean, some would say you merge into a greater essence, you know, generic consciousness per say. Having said that, we, again, working with mediums when they report from

Discarnate people and accurately on you know seem to be aware of what's going on in life And they describe while I was this I was sick I had this happen It's all the physical attributes of the person as they existed before of the person as they existed before. So that has, there has to be some connection with personality for them to develop that. That's a good point. The answer is I don't have a good answer for which is which. There are others that I know of.

I'll mention one medium that I have great confidence is Suzanne Giesman. I don't know if you know that name at all. I don't. Okay. Well, Suzanne's a medium. Take hours to get into the whole course there. But she's also a retired Navy commander who is married to a former Navy captain. And she used to be the assistant to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

And in fact, in 9-11, she was with Hugh Shelton. And I saw her give a presentation. I see Hugh and I used to be majors at the same time and same place. I said, he did a lot better than I did. But so I said, I noticed that you never mentioned his name. And he says, well, I've talked to him, he just doesn't wanna be associated. But and Suzanne had never had,

knowingly had psychic experiences or anything like that. I think they were sailing off Croatia. She and her husband were, you know, on their own. He had a daughter from a previous marriage who had joined the Marines, was pregnant, walking across the tarmac and got hit by lightning and killed. And so they came back and Suzanne started working on, it was how do I contact Susan, happened to be the Susan daughter's name as well, and worked on it and is now one of the premier,

and she now contacts spirits on continuous basis and does it for other people and has one who emerges is, she has a group called Sonia, reports of a singular entity who is saying they are a collection of spirits who are going to collaborating, but come forth as a single one. Now, how you wrap your mind head around that is really difficult. But yeah, we became friends over, like I say, knowing some of the same people.

Her book, what's's the loop back in? Her first book was the medium and the doctor, and it was about Ann Gaymon, who is, and Ann is the one who hold that fork up that I told you that dropped over, that got us interested in PK. Now, how do you interrelate all of those things? I have no idea. When you talk about, so we're in the, what happens when you die?

Do you return to some type of generic consciousness? What do you personally believe? That's a good question. I'll let you know when I figure it out. I am personally, I won't hundred percent convinced that consciousness continues. Exactly what form that is and all that, that gets into more difficult territory, certainly. Again, I was the president of International Association for Near Death Studies, and I know most of those key people and the stories they tell are just,

I'll digress into one because there's several, but Mary Neal is one of those. Mary's a medical doctor, lives in Wyoming. She was in Northern Chile, kayaking. And what's significant about this case are the physical attributes that cannot be denied. So they're out, it's the last day of their kayaking trip, and she's the last, there's her husband who normally went with them did not that day. So she's the last there's a theorem her for her husband who normally went with them did not that day So she's at the trail and and they're going over pretty good You know now she's highly qualified and can do cat three cat four No, no problem Which he does And something happens and where she wants to go is blocked as he gets forced to a different direction

Goes over the waterfall and goes down about 30 feet and is stuck, nose down. Now she's in there and you got your kayak and there's a quick release, but because of the water, the strength of the water over it can't reach that. The way she gets out of it eventually is her legs break above the knee and it's like bending this way and gets you know they find her she's probably under water for 35 minutes. And the point there is you cannot hold your breath for 35 minutes. And so there's no doubt about that she probably physically died. And they finally find her body downstream and bring her back. And two guys come out from the shore. Now again, we're in a remote area of Chile and they take her, by the way, to some other miracle things that happen.

Rocks appear in that. They take her to the waiting ambulance. The point is there are no ambulances in this part of Chile, and there's one that happens to be waiting at the road that takes her in. She also talks about, she was out met God and those sorts of things, but also had an experience where she is given information that no mother wants to hear. She has four small children at the time. And the information is that your son will dry at 17. Sure enough turn 17, cars zags and zags and in fact she said until a year before that she didn't even tell her husband

about this aspect of it. But here you have, you know, the physical drowning that must have taken place. You see the pictures of her who's no doubt about the legs. I mean, that was just awful and was crippled for a long time. She's a orthopedic surgeon, by the way, and still is. And so you have that. You have these two guys up here who, they went back looking for them and aren't there,

but you have an ambulance that isn't there, that physically does take her to the hospital. You have information about events in the future. This is why you get into the question of free will versus predestined that some would be killed at that point. And this is obviously years before, but what decisions could he have made that he might not have been out skateboarding at that time and yet did happen.

So these are the kind of cases when you say, one other guy I will mention is Eben Alexander. I recommend he wrote Truth of Heaven, no relative, but his case and what's interesting about him, this guy was a neurosurgeon at Harvard for 25 years. Of course, didn't believe in any of this nonsense. And the highlights of his case, he has ingrained meningitis, dies while he's dying, and gets taken to his own hospital. And I recognize him. So he is out for a week. And sad knows again, there's a neurosurgeon who's been teaching neurosurgery, consciousness could not have been there.

And yet he has a whole thing. You can read in his books on what happened to them and all of that. Critical issue I mentioned, he, I didn't, not a relative, but he was adopted at birth. Turns out that his birth parents married after he was adopted and had more children so he's got physical. While he is out wherever this is for this week, he has an escort of this female butterfly who takes him around and escorts him through higher realms and I mean, it gets into a very complex thing. One of the reasons you believe in, you know,

continuation and, you know, complexity of the universe. So he revives and comes back. Now, he's never met, the birth parents had never wanted to meet, but he now meets them and finds out that this sister whom he has never met and he now sees pictures of her. You can see where this is going. That's the guide. Whoa. Yeah.

Do you have contact with these people? Oh yeah. All the time. But I mean, there are so many of them. I just picked a couple of the really, you know, where it gets beyond, well, again, what Suzanne uses in a we called no other explanation. Wow. What, what do you think about manifestation?

About what? Manifestation, manifesting, manifesting things into existence. Do you believe in that? Can you be a bit more specific about my physical thing is developing things in the future. Developing things in the future. I've done this kind of as a occupation. And they talk about manifesting your life and that as opposed to physical upwards that are appearing and things that precipitate into physical reality.

I've not heard about anything that comes into physical reality. Oh, yeah. Can you give me an example? Yeah. My table mate, C&JC, was a Pakistani. I chose to have a forum student and we got off into some of these things and hopefully got the case right but anyway he got sure what the relative, senior relative, older relative that he had said that where

he lived every night, he'd wake up in the morning and there would be money on the sill. By the way, his father, the. and his grandfather had a VC, you know, had fought for the British, actually VC. I mean, that's MOH level here. Yeah. Yeah. And, but anyway, said that, yeah, they would wake up every morning.

It wasn't a big amount, just a small amount of money would be there. And then told somebody about it, stopped. But where it came from, how it got there. Now if you want, well we can get into the thing. What happened with us in Mongolia had specific examples of that. I've got them in the drawer. First one we were meeting with Shaman Bull and this is up near the Siberian border. We're chasing the reindeer

Shaman here. But anyway, went in and we did a ceremony and Victoria and I were the only two foreigners there. I had a few people, locals, and if you're familiar with the Mongolian gear, small, I forget how many were there, but he's doing this ceremony and all of a sudden we hear this and the thing goes rolling across the floor. So I picked it up and when I got home, sometime later I took it down to Hal's place, Hal put it off, and they said it's a tectite. Didn't know. A tectite is formed by the ejecta from a meteor hitting the ground. Relatively rare, not diamond rare, but relatively rare. What got my impression most is I,

this thing happens, you say, oh, you should keep it and I'm sure, and it's the local people going, oh, wow, you know, looking at it like they've never seen this. So it's not part of your stick if you will. And again, it's kind of like the voodoo folks. The other people who have a poverty level look up to dirt. So the idea that he's pocketing these things and it could have pocketed and dropped it, yeah, did he? I

don't think there's any chance that that happened. So where did it come from? More spectacular, a number of nights later, we had been out, forget how many, it was the eighth night, and we had with these little, you know, pop-up tents that we were using. Victoria and I had one,

and of course it's just room enough for the two sleeping pads or sitting but the point is every morning you turn it upside down and shake it just to shake the dirt out it's that light and we've done that for eight nights now. Wake up the next morning and between our pads is a 50-pencil Australian coin. No idea. Now remember, we're near Siberia and this 50-pencil Australian coin is lying between our bed. So those are the first hand kinds of things.

I think it was first hand experience. Yeah. I mean, what do you, what's that conversation like when you wake up and there's 50 Australian going? Like where did this come from? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

There's only, we had the driver, we had a local guy, the guy and the driver, I mean, that they slipped it in the middle of the night. Probability approach is zero. So how do you explain it? But I just say I do have that and I keep it in the safe because these things have a habit of disappearing. It's like when I showed it to Hal, I mean, I physically carried it down there, I'm not gonna mail these things around.

Like too many people say, well, I lost in the mail or something. But how do you explain this stuff? Don't know. I mean, you have to be thinking about this all the time. All these things that you've witnessed, that you've heard, that you've experienced,

I mean, it's just in the couple hours we've been talking, there's dozens. How do you sleep at night? I guess. Pretty well most of the time. Yeah. Have you manifested anything? Have you tried to?

Oh, tried to, no. Why not? But these things happen. I say these things sort of, well, my main take on it is, I don't consider myself psychic, per se, but a lot of these things happen around me. They seem to be more of a catalyst than just have experienced a lot of them, a lot of strange things that happen. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Back to consciousness. Do you think we're all tapped into one kind of fabric? Oh, yeah. Well, my friend Larry Dossi wrote the book on that. I don't know if you know Larry or not, but he's, again, an MD. One of the ones for our paths crossed in a number of areas. But he was actually a medical doctor with the 101st

Airborne in Vietnam. So we had, you know, comfortable stories there. But yeah, you can read his stories. Yeah, everything is connected. Let's move back. We don't always do the best to, you know, sometimes when they say, you know, what you Let's move back. We don't always do the best to, you know, sometimes when they say, you know, what you do hurts you.

And that sort of look like it's really true. Let's move back into some of your career. Let's move back. How did you get connected with Robert Bigelow? Oh, well, the first time I met him, it was just a handshake sort of thing. John Mack and Dave Pritchard. John Mack, do you know John? I do not. Oh, UFO circles, that's an automatic. John was a Pulitzer Prize winner, a medical doctor at Harvard University.

A whole story worth knowing. And he had a group studying abduction, in case he's best known. In fact, his book is called Abduction case, he's best known, in fact, his book is called Abduction. Dave Pritchard was an optical physicist, again, premier level, and they held a conference at MIT. An interesting thing they might have to come back to is when we arrived at the conference, that was one of the speakers, and I was talking about the relationship between UFOs and near-death experiences. We all had to sign a statement that we understood it was at MIT, not by MIT.

You fast forward to where I just came from, Stanford. They were very supportive of Gary Nolan's thing at Stanford. I think that's hugely significant. Harvard also has Abhi Loeb whom I met there at Stanford as well and he's the astronomy department at Harvard and they now have the Galeo project that studies it. So the point is, from an institutional perspective, they have shifted in 30 from years. Don't mention our name to, yeah, we can support this. So for Bob, I just briefly met him there. What I did not know at that time is that his son

had just died like within the last 30 days at that juncture. Fast forward, maybe a couple of years or something. I've got a group at my house, I was living in Santa Fe, and Al Putoff was there, I think Jacques Belay and some other, I forget all, what the whole group was. It was over the weekend, and talking about, this was kind of a follow on to the Advanced Theoretical Physics Project. We did keep in touch even after our retirement. And out of the blue, it's Sunday morning and folks are getting

ready to go to Albuquerque to catch their flights. And the phone rings. I'm Bob Bigelow, I've heard about you. You got any projects that'd be of interest? And the short answer then was yes, we had another one of some guy that he funded independently. And a short time after that, he came back and he was, he said he wanted to create an institute which became NIDS. At the time, the Santa Fe Institute was there, which was primarily in chaos theory. He had Murray Gilmond, a Nobel physicist.

On the board were people I knew from MIT, but kind of at that level of science. And they were the premier institution. By the way, this was another one that crosses over. You read The Lost World. We're talking about Michael Crichton. A lot of people in that book are the ones from Santa Fe because it's based on, it was a Jurassic Park, it was based on chaos theory, as well as encapsulation of DNA, et cetera. So, Landall had kind of made it clear they didn't want to push non-lethal weapons.

And in the meantime, I worked with the Council on Foreign Relations and the Joint Non-lethal Weapons Director was being developed as a direct response to that. That's kind of a side story. So the system there was very age-sensitive. So it was in the 60s of the time, and so retiring was a pretty good option. And then from that, he developed NIDS, and I was the first one there and then helped develop the whole board. But it was when he's serendipitous out of the blue, first contacts, if you will. You can't plan these things. What kind of stuff were you guys studying at Skimwalker?

Well, no, Skimwalker is actually a subset of NIDS now. Okay. So, I don't know which one you want to... Looking at the rancher of the... Let's look at the overall big picture. Okay. NIDS was formed to study two specific things. One was a continuation of consciousness,

and the other was UFOs. And I had suggested to Bob unsuccessfully that you ought not be developing subset organizations. First thing is an engineer by trade. First thing he draws the box and says, we got this and you got UFOs and you got cattle mutilation and you've got abduction, you know, right to the board. My suggestion was not to do that in the form follows function. Us correct data and see where it goes and create an organizational structure based on the data and the kinds of things that we're

receiving. Put together, no doubt, a world-class board, one you wouldn't recognize. You know Ted Rockwell? I doubt that. He was RECOVER's technical director, but very interested in these phenomena and that. Edgar Mitchell was on Jack Schmidt from Apollo 17. Yeah, can't remember all of them. Hal Kitt, I think, was the Kitt Green's first president of the board. Marty Pills had come, I brought several from Los Alamos.

One of the key ones was Dean Judd. He is, Dean is particularly key in worthy things things again, crossover. Dean had been the chief scientist for SDI, more important, as importantly, after he did that, do you know what an NIO was? The National Intelligence Officer? Yes. Okay, now this is back before the DNI is created. So the organizational structure, the CIA had two acts, the Director of CIA.

He was the Director of CIA and the Director of Central Intelligence, which is different. And so, as the under the IC, he created the IC staff because you can't go to the president and say, CIA thinks this, but DIA thinks that. You've got to come in with an integrated position. So these were the guys who had the national position on any given topic. Now most of them are geographic. I got the guys for Asia, for Europe, or Middle East, etc. But there was one for technology, for science and technology, and that was Dean Judd. My point there is, now Dean and I knew each other extraordinarily well when we traveled together

I had brought him on a board for that so calm and whatnot And he's working. He's willing to work with with Bob now did not want his name out there He used a different name in the public He definitely did not know anything about any, you know, integral, you know, ongoing program in there. But remember, he's the guy who's got to go to the president and say, you know, here's what we know on all issues in space and whatnot. Didn't know that. So he's another example. Yeah, there was kind of a who's who in science and so put the board together. And we initially, it's one of the first biggies, we actually had a conference on life after death research. We had about 30 or 40 folks present for that.

And then of course, UFOs were coming along. Then out of the blue kind of came along Terry and the exposure to the ranch. By the way, it was never a skin walker ranch while Neds had it. I mean, that's a name that came along after and has a tap. We just call it like the ranch. And yeah, that was an opportunity that just emerged. And you got to be so excited because of the number and complexity of the events that were happening. And then we heard Terry's story and Frankie believed him.

I think he straight up and very honest and bad things happening to his family. Know why he sold. I mean, you can't blame him for that. And it was taking a lot of heat in the area. And so Bob just decided to buy the ranch and then that kind of became a laboratory, if you will, a living lab. And we started studying and going up there.

I said, I was the one who spent the first night I was with him the day he bought the ranch. And I spent the night there and nothing. It does same. And one of the questions that comes up is that certain people seem to be focal points for some of this and have more of the mystical experiences than others. I didn't, there was one of our group that's pretty well known, but he seemed to be more

sensitive and have strange things around him. I have a question. When I interviewed Brandon Fugel, he said that Bigelow would not share any research or information that was discovered at the ranch. Why would he not do that? That's Bob. That's just him. Yeah. One of the things that I have talked to on a field just a point, one of the things we

did initially is create a pretty significant library and there were a number of folks that came forward and were able to buy or collect information. People had private collections. By the way, a guy you haven't heard of that's significant here is Dave Marlar. He lives in Albuquerque and has set up a major foundation and is collecting and has had, I think, got relationships with the University of New Mexico to protect this equipment. And one of the things they're doing is overtly looking for folks who have private collections and bring it together. Jeff Kripel has done that at Rice as well. But Bob was just wondering,

old stuff, he can be very, very private in many areas. What's the connection between the continuation of consciousness and UFOs? continuation of consciousness and UFOs? UFOs have got to be a piece of consciousness puzzle. As I said, you've had, now, as you know, particularly from Jacques, these go back millennia, reports of summits, but you know, we have all of these significant, you know, interactions with UFOs, but that's a relatively near new wrinkle to interaction with other forms of non-sendient life or non-human sentient life. in sentient life.

How do you, what kind of experiments do you do or research do you do when it comes to the continuation of consciousness? How do you study that? I'm not ready to discuss that right now because I think it's coming. Okay. I'll tell you, that's to be announced. Okay. But actually have a Zoom session on that on Sunday.

All right. Roger that. But huge. And one of the problems that you have is if we're right and consciousness arriving in the complexity and remember the PSP, Percognitive, St. Infant, how'd you get ahead of that? It knows what you're going to do before you do it and determines what results you're going to get. How long did you guys study that?

Noon tomorrow? I don't know. No, I mean with under nids. Two cents. This is literally evolving as we... Okay. Two cents, this is literally evolving as we... Okay. Yeah, I mean, this is where I think it's headed. And there's too many loose pieces right now and don't want to risk upsetting any of those. Okay. When it comes to some of these crash retrievals, you know, there's a big disclosure

thing happening in the first hearing in Congress was last year. I think they've had another one since then. What do you think of all this stuff? You know, there's so many different camps in this. Well, I'm in a firm maybe. I had come down against Roswell. Having said that, until Grush came forward, and you'll, well, there's a weapon I sang, that's one of the things they were talking about with me there. Has it changed? Because I was kind of a firm no.

Now, Roswell happened, no doubt about that. My position was, I'm pretty sure it was ours. And yeah, had the details to kind of support that. And from multiple sources. Conversely, after Grush came forward, and again I know those key players as well, Lou Zafran, Chris Mellon, Jim Simivan, that's the name you want to know. He's public now, I wouldn't have said anything, but he was the executive officer, director of CIA and an abductee where he'd had personal, like I can say, when these things get convoluted,

I met a conference or actually a training session. But anyway, they go around the room, you know, who are you, blah, blah, blah. I mentioned my name, yes, it's his, and we went on break, and he says, are you John Alexander? And I was like, yeah, what? So, so I heard about you, and then mentions

he's ex very senior CIA, and go to lunch, and he tells us about the experience where he's living in Northern Virginia and he wakes up and he's here with his wife outside and I have no idea how they got there. And there had been little beings in the room with them and how do we get outside and then there's physical stuff that happened and all that. And he's one, as Common said, to believe Grush now, not what he told me before.

I talked to Chris Mellon about it and he's the problem is the data never all fit I Told you some of the pieces before the guys like If crushes right My take is this is absolutely illegal what has been going on. I Think I know now how it was potentially funded and it's not what conventional wisdom has. One of the things we didn't mention

and you hear all the time, Benchants, particularly the Skunk Works, well, if you've got a Skunk Works patch over there. I knew Ben Rich and we talked about this. I mean, we had meetings on this. Ben, when I was with him, had a shopping list. Now I'll give you the name because when I was at the Seoul Conference, I was standing in line

and this guy talks to me and said, where are you from? He said, oh, he's from the skunk ward. He just retired from the skunk ward. Oh, that's interesting. So it turns out they have a list and I asked him. Unfortunately, the guy has a transition. But Sheffield was the guy that Ben gave me and said,

Ben had a shopping list. I want the propulsion system, I want the cloaking system, I want the da-da-da and looked out and this runs very counter to a lot of the popular literature. And I believe we had more than one discussion on this. I believe we had more than one discussion on this. Could he have lied to me? Possible.

I think I mentioned before we knew Edward Teller had gone when we were doing advanced theoretical physics. One of our suppositions was if five people are in the loop and Roswell tellers one of them. And the reason is that, remember, he is the guy who is involved with the most energy that is known to mankind at that time, nuclear fusion, right? Had him over for dinner and actually brought these topics up and he didn't dismiss it.

He just said, well, I think they're looking the wrong way. It went into the thing. He's one who talks about Trinity and how people knew and most people didn't and all that. But no indication of that. By the way, he liked the Cash Landrum case that I told you about. And that's because of the radiation

and we understand that sort of case. Yeah, so like I say, the pieces just never all fit. I am like probably you and most of America now waiting to say, okay. Now one of my problems is that, as I said, well, I actually didn't mention this. When I was doing these briefings on ATP in addition, I mentioned Star Wars, I had met with the director or deputy director of all those three-letter agencies. Now, if you have a crashed retrieval program, you got to have a hell of a lot of people. You mean you think about, see my approach to all of this has been okay, it's real, how would I organize to do that? And the numbers get you. Meaning, how many people do you have to have that are ready to go on a

moment's notice? You go to any contingency plan where you have a global contingency plan, because that's what it would have to be, right? All over the globe, any place, maybe you're talking about international relations, but then you're talking adding liaison officers or anybody might go out and collect and et cetera, et cetera. The numbers make no sense.

And we'll tell you, the director of one of those three letter agencies were having the briefing. I was there, somebody else was with me. I may have been just burnt because this is one where generals talk into generals that allowed to do it. And so he goes, A, we don't do that. There's no requirement. If you understand how the intelligence community is driven by requirements they collect against the civic targets. B, tell you about the ones I saw. So the point is here is a guy who's now the head

of one of those three letter agencies who has personally seen what he describes as UFOs and says, no, agency not involved. Now, the question comes up, were all these people lying to me? I frankly doubt it, there's just too many. But the flip side is, you know, believe and that this tiny, tiny subset does have it.

So I'm, like I say, I'm waiting for the shoe to drop. You and everybody else. But, you know, it... Do ETs have the technology? Do we have the technology? How do we know what's ours? How do we know it's not? The technology.

One thing almost everybody, even those, the believers say, haven't been able to crack it in reality. And my example is, if an F-35 crashed in the Amazon and the Karina Quarry picked it up, you'd probably have better spears, you know, but you wouldn't understand flying and stealth and all of that. And that seems to be, I mean, almost in the rumors that you come back and just say, don't, now there are those who say, no, no, we've been flying it for a long time and I think that's bullshit. And the reason is if you had the technology and couldn't fly it, the issue is not little widgets flying.

It's about understanding technology that's fundamentally different. You can make the Middle East irrelevant. And in fact, in one of my books I wrote to that, can I write a little vignette, what would happen? And it was the zero point energy sources discovered, and it changes the geopolitics of the world, which it would.

And so that you would take this and go make a little widget to fly in consequential compared to understanding. Now we also looked at what would it take if you did understand such an energy? And our best guess is, you know, at least two, probably three decades before you could inculcate that. And you can see examples of that right now with electric cars, because you're talking about them now,

but the big question of, okay, where are we recharging mechanisms and all that? To put in that infrastructure takes decades. So you would get started well ahead of time. So I think the idea that we've had it in the sequester, and that the other flip side is usually, well, the oil barons and all that would just bury it because they want to keep theirs going.

I say, no, they would own it. They would just go out and buy it. We have the concentration of wealth as we do in the US right now. Now, the people with money would just invest in that and buy it. There's no need to be afraid. Yeah, that is a good point. Let's talk about some of these abductions. I'm sure you've looked into some of these abductions. I'm sure you've looked into some of the abductions.

Okay. What are some of the abductions that really stand out to you that you find to be credible? Well, again, I had mentioned before John Mack and he was the the premier guy, the abduction phenomena. And John was much more circumspect than most people realize. Again, little gray eyes from Zeta Reticuli picking people up in that. The converse is the one that I mentioned before. Here's the guy who, well, it's interesting. He becomes the executive officer of the CIA.

He's literally in charge of counterterrorism for the U.S. for a while, who has to sleep with the light on. And like I say, I put Jim down and I know his wife too, highly, highly credible people. And, you know, of course, they can't answer what happened other than they're sleeping in the room and they end up outside and there's no doors to get there and things of that nature. Again, I think we're back to complexity and, you know, well, Whitley Straber is a good friend we've talked about, you know, Whitley, his case and stuff that happened in New York. He's one who

had come up with a whole anal probe kinds of things. I don't think that the issue is in hybrid children and fighting is, well, if you're fighting E.T., that's total bullshit. Because if E.T. understands physics and can get across the universe and get here, they also understand biology. And I don't need humans to make new humans, and I don't even need life humans. If I can collect, we've seen this now with a DNA, you know, alive with what I've said is ET says no to free range humans. You know, what they would do is if it were adversarial is just wipe out the people and you know, create their own. You know, it'd be a biological attack.

I forgot to mention to you that you don't realize, and I just learned this this morning on the internet, that you're talking to a zombie who was controlled by evil eat cheese. That's literally on the internet today. I'm a zombie. So this stuff gets pretty wild and I tell you damn issues like a plushie do these events happen oh absolutely happen but having said that again you get back to the interactions of the humans and sentient non-humans we've been having abductions remember Rip Van Winkle? There's one that's

in the Quran, and this notion of going to sleep or by location, and that has been around forever and not necessarily that some ET snatched them up and moved them there. Why does it come? Are there, they call it, clipped memories and changing it to make people think that it's something else. See, one of the things I mentioned earlier on the Cashlandrum case,

helicopters flying around, absolutely weren't there and have looked at that and said, but can I make you think of there? Can we do thought projection so that, you know, that these things are being projected so the recipients are this, they're reporting what they actually see, but that's because something that's being implanted directly into the brain. Scary thing if you watched in the news in the last couple of weeks,

them talking about Chinese working on thought control. I have, I actually- Yeah, you can. I've read about that. What do you think about that? Do you think that's a possibility? You have to describe it. Thought projection. Oh, parts of it are absolutely real.

Well, no, no, we can. This is an area that I don't know if it's still classified or not, but there are ways to project certain that are very prosaic, complex but prosaic. How much you can do, I don't know, but we're talking, if cashlander is A, the UFO is there, that physical, we know from the physical fact something was physically there, but can implant thoughts that are terribly complex, i.e. it's not just a room, but it's, you know, certain types of helicopters are flying around this thing. We know for sure they were not. That talks to a degree of technology that's well beyond certainly anything I've ever heard of or even been sort of being close to. By the way, related, I was giving a briefing on non-lethal weapons to the Director of Science or Director of Research at CIA headquarters.

And never met, the whole thing of thought control has been, you know, in the CT arena. And, you know, he went off into that and it was, you know, I don't know if people know what happened on the church committee, but that's the whole LSD thing and that. And said, no way in hell are we touching something like that. And people would look, I think you play your betcher agency. And when you do that, if you get caught playing with those kinds of technologies. Now, having said that, of course, this recent stuff has been associated with China and certainly don't have the same moral limitations that we might on that. But the implications of where that goes is just really, really horrendous.

I mean, how I don't, I mean, obviously they would have to tap into some type of a consciousness. You know, which obviously they would have to tap into some type of a consciousness. You know, which obviously they would have to tap into some type of consciousness. I mean, we're talking about, well, depending on how you're defining consciousness now, see, you're back to, I think the significant difference between the brain and the mind. So what we're really talking about here is being able to manipulate the mind. And what we know from like fMRI, for instance, yeah, you can do that. That works both ways. You can also read the mind based on certain physical responses.

Yeah, I'm arguing some. I guess what I'm saying is if you're able to, how do I explain this? If you're able to, let's talk about the cell sample. You, your cells were hooked up to the polygraph machine, and they were able to pick up on your emotional algorithm. Would there be a way to reverse that to where the cells can manipulate the mind? Yeah, you're very close to something that Bert and I were discussing.

If you remember when Reagan was shot, and one of the things that came up, everybody attributed it to ghouls, but trying to collect bandages and all of that. And we're in the highly speculative area here now, but it was, can I take this sample and revert it back to where you can influence the actual organism? I mean, you're talking the Manchurian candidate at a whole different degree here, but I'm concerned. I, we literally had discussions about, you know, who's controlling all of these physical samples that are coming from the president. And could you do this?

Again, besides, this gets used highly speculative, but thought about it, certainly. Last thing, interspecies communications. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Okay. Which species? The dolphins. Oh oh the dolphin research. Yeah Well, we did that the dolphin research was Actually doing interaction the stuff of the whales Again, we're interacting a lot closer than we are with humpback whales and what that then Said that grass they knew exactly where we were. I mean, and the ability to do that, it wasn't exactly communication, but they were dead.

We were in a rigid rubber 30, 10 meter boat. I mean, cut that in the heartbeat and yet we're having interactions inches from that. But now there's several applications there and this is going to go off into the lead soap story as well. We had done, a guy I had mentioned was Ted Rockwell. He's the one who had been with Rick over as technical director, very interested in these areas and he had funded this. And what we did is we're dealing with two aspects. One was dolphins in the open ocean.

We did a week. This was off of the Bahamas. We went in the North end, signed in, and we were up in North of there. And spent a week out there. And we had the protocols that we set up was for very practical reasons, there would be no physical contact unless they initiated. And there's a suspect to human infections and things of that nature. But again, these are pods in the open ocean.

And they vary in size. What happens normally is in the morning they will break up and go hunting and come back together late in the day and they can run from twos and that to hundreds. We've seen some of that. So we were working. Actually, an ex-wife was the one who was psychic on this and would have interaction. If they came, we would get in the water. By the way, being alive, you've dived with them, but that's just amazing. I mean, you've got these things, hundreds of pounds, and they're, you know, inches away from you because they would come to us while you're in the water.

Are these wild? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Now we're talking open ocean and anyway so we started into some of the psychic things and I would say, I think they're coming, they're a long ways off. And there's one in particular where we're trying to communicate and have them do certain things and you see them come rolling in and then we were, well, the boat, anyway, we're dream two and had a small raft that were towing behind it and to bring them in and you'd see them, we saw them coming across and had them, again the telepathic instruction was to make a major shift and to go back out and circle around and come back in and Had them respond to it Now a lot of time we would get in the water

We keep the pins and goggles there so you had to get in the water fast To you know get their attention and say and they would say and play with you If we when we did that. But this was one trying to give telepathic communications and have them do it. Now there's another set of experiments, but these were in captivity. And they did this, I forget where they were, but they were in tanks and they put up signs roughly north, south, east, and west. And there's another guy who deserves credit here, Scott Jones.

That name popped up at all? No, it hasn't. Antiquity, one who's key in many of these areas and had become an ex-Navy pilot, a lot of strange stuff from Korea and experiences and then got involved in these areas and became assistant Claver and Pell as the senator who became quite interested. Anyway, Scott set this up. And so what they did is he made a number of cards with a set of instructions. And then they put them in the envelope and numbered the envelope, but did not know what instruction is in the envelope, numbered the envelope, but did not know what instruction

is in what envelope. So there would be things like go to north, circle counterclockwise twice, go to east, etc. and they did that and had five out of five, they had six envelope, five out of five does that. And then they would read the instructions and send the message, they would do it. Sixth one, picks up now, she does not know what's in the envelope,

right? Dolphin starts a routine and opens it up, and they had done the routine before they'd even seen it. Wow. Yeah. I knew John Lilly, and you may know Lilly on dolphins because he had done a lot of the basic research on that. He also warns you that you gotta be careful of it because they can get aggressive, particularly with women.

At that time. Yeah, there's a sexual component to it. But yeah, where I mentioned earlier, this is Chris Bloodsou's case, and we can talk about the whole thing, but he's one who's having interactions with orbs on a continuous basis. It starts with an amazing case. But I wrote the foreword to his book, UFO God. It appears as if this is some form of communication that we don't understand, but he has a telepathic communication with him.

Now, one of the things that they did, and I understand they've known, just recently replicated, but hasn't aired, there was the program called Beyond Skinwalker Ranch has set on Cress and I'm in that. But near the end what they do, I mean this really blew them away. I mean, this really blew them away. David Broadwell, who was orchestrating this, got a hold of a guy and they have a EEG helmet. And so they've got Chris outside.

And when they show it in the film, what's really effective is Chris is there, he's pointing to orbs that are moving around. They're photographing the orbs so that they see that. So they got him on the poem and the third one is actually the reading from his EEG. And what you see is a profound shift to something that looks like a Zen meditator with 30 years experience with him or that, but the brain waves just shift tremendously when he's again doing this communication with the orbs. I said the problem at the moment is we have yet to figure out the Rosetta Stone, where we can understand what this means. And getting back to Brandon, you know, he also says that in Skinwalker Ranch,

he thinks that the issue is attempted communication. We just don't understand it. What kind of communication is Blood So Having with these orbs? Oh, he calls them and sees them almost daily. He calls them and they come in. Yeah. I get emails, I haven't an email for a week or two, but Norm almost every week, or if the weather's good, he goes out and yeah, they respond. And...

Do you think he would be interested in an interview? Yeah, he would. No problem with that one. Chris Bloodsill. Yeah. Roger that. We'll talk about that, but the case is, it's another one. The complexity of that case is absolutely amazing. And that it's turned into a positive thing. In fact, I just sent him on, I think it was Tuesday, was the 16th or 17th year since his

first major event happened. I sent him a note, said, Happy Anniversary. Because it was, you know, he has a fabulous family and all been involved, but they took a lot of heat. And Mofan, you know, why they existed, they had a video up on it. It's just terrible what they did with him on the initial reporting. And of course, the local community, and of course the local community, and to make matters worse, his family becomes very fundamentalist Christian and does not want

to hear that. And yeah, but we can talk about the case itself is interesting because it's one where I had, this is one where I had a personal experience with it. But I'm absolutely convinced of the reality, mostly because of what happened to me. I mean, both these things I've talked about are things I've observed or been around. This is one that, yes, me. Yeah, yeah.

Man, this is a lot to think about. This is a lot to think about. I do, one other thing came to mind that I would like to ask you about, and that is the underground ET bases. Lots of people talk about it. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know what to believe. Well, tell me more about what the question is. Well, you know, what really popped on my radar is, you know, I've always heard about them. They cook that these tic-tacs UFOs come out of the ocean, they come out of the ground, you know,

and some people think that they've been here all along. Then when I was researching Joe McGonagall, I found kind of a mini documentary that talks about these remote viewers that remote viewed underground bases, one being in Mount Hayes, Alaska. Yeah, that's a single. What do you know about this stuff? Mostly what you do and the probability of it being with being significant and physical reality, I think is pretty slim. But you're back to what do you mean by UFO

and you see where do they come from? If it's an interdimensional thing, then you don't have a problem of that. And you also don't have a problem of physical space of where are they. Now, having said that, as if it sounds highly negative, conversely, again, if you're talking to finish over to the near death arena and the mediums and they talk about, oh, the spirit world that's very, very close to us and aware of what we're doing and interacting and it's physically right here, immediately adjacent.

It gets you away from a lot of the problems of, like I say, time and distance and things of that nature, but it's, you know, worth considering, certainly. So, but that gets you away from necessarily that there's a fixed base that's there that's in three-dimensional reality as we know it. Is this in something that has other dimensions and so it's not physically taking up space and you've got to get there. Because we know where Mount Hays is and having said that, have heard for a long time about UFOs flying into and out of mountains and maces. It's much rarer than typical UFO story, but certainly there. You must remember

something I haven't yet. One of my first questions always is, what do you mean by a UFO? And the problem is I got little balls of light, got hard craft miles across, literally, and thousands and thousands of variations in between, which in my view argues strongly against, oh, by the way, the ET hypothesis that you know, putting together. If on the other hand you say this is a mental construct and you're seeing different things, again you're back to consciousness, that certainly makes more sense. I also, second slide, I think the second slide that I always use is when I talk on any of

these topics and it's got, I don't know all of them, but it's got near-death experience, after-death, psychokinesis, interspecies communication, UFOs and all that. They said even cryptozoology and say, yeah, these are all related and consciousness is the key component.

They're all related and consciousness is the key component. Problem is we tend to isolate and study and little stovepipes. And I have a thing that says, look, I've given lectures at the UFO community and near-death experiences, shamans around the world and remote viewers. And it is changing, but for the most part, it's those are as if isolated.

And one of the first things you run into is what are your parameters? And near death, what do you mean by being close to death? Because most of the cases where you have no idea, one of the things we had to talk about separately, are the few cases where the individual is entirely instrumented. So you know that they're down to, but even the case that I mentioned, Mary, I mean, all we have are the stories after the faction. You have to infer that death had occurred.

You have to infer that she had some ways of getting communication and information about what would happen years later. We do know that piece of it happened, but you're a lot of inference as to how all of that occurred. Well, I hope you have a good Zoom call. So, but, well, John, I'm not gonna lie, my brain is tapped out after talking to you for six hours. And I've got a lot to think about,

but I would like to say thank you very much for coming on the show and sharing everything from your Vietnam experience, your childhood, and as much as we've covered up until this point. And I just wanna say it was an honor to have you. And thank you for making the trip. Guys, you've heard me talk about my passion for ketone supplements and how they boost your workouts by helping your body use fatty acids for fuel.

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