She's On The Money - BONUS EP: The Hidden Truths of Credit

Episode Date: May 7, 2021

Our first lady Victoria Devine has sat down once again with the self proclaimed 'Dad of Finance' Glen James to chat frankly about the reality of credit services who shall not be named.Love the pod but looking for a more hands-on approach to your money? Look no further. Our budgeting & cash flow masterclass is the tool you need to help overhaul your finances for good. Join Victoria as she steps you through your budgeting and cash flow with all of the smarts and none of the intimidating jargon. Finally, if you're in a money mess and need help untangling the muddle - we've got you sorted - simply record your question and send it through to us at [e-mail] and you may just end up on the podcast! The advice shared on She’s on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She’s on The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine is an Authorised Representative of Australia Pacific Funds Management Proprietary Limited ABN 34 132 463 257 - AFSL 339151.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

She's on the money. She's on the money. Hello and welcome to She's on the money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. I'm Toni Lodge. You are. I know. I'm new.

This is my first time. New friend. And today we have a very special bonus episode. I'm sure that you saw your phone light up and it was a Saturday morning and you thought, I've got to go and do the shopping. And then you went, there's a new Cheese on the Money episode in my- Victoria and Tony can join me. Here we go.

So whatever you're doing, your run, your walk, whatever, we're here with you. And Vee, tell us about the exciting chat that you had over the weekend. So over the weekend, I had a really good chat with my friend, Glenn James, who is from My Millennial Money, about a number of different topics that we're really passionate about. we thought we'd wrap it all up into a special edition podcast for you because it didn't really fit into the mold of any of our traditional episodes but I did genuinely think it was a really important conversation to have and to share with you guys because it is about you know misleading marketing and debt and credit products and just this conversation needs to happen more

often and regularly and I didn't want to have to have it in a structured way so Glenn and I we jumped on Zoom he's over in New Zealand at the moment living his best life how good's that Tony imagine just being like I'm gonna jet set off to Queenstown and spend two weeks working from there and just be like oh yeah I'll just jump on the phone with my best mate Victoria Devine we'll chat about some good stuff and then I'll go and eat all the delicious food in New Zealand oh my god he did too he did that is exactly what he did he's like oh I'm just off to Arrowtown which is a beautiful place just outside of Queenstown that has one of the best cafes it's called the Chop Shop I don't know if anyone's been or loves it but I adore it and they have

one of the best nasi gorengs I've had in my life. Anyway, he rubbed that in and was like, very relatable. I think it's not relatable, but it is really beautiful. So if you're ever going to go to Queenstown, I definitely would recommend that. But enough about nasi goreng and how good rice is. Let's jump into the chat I had with Glenn James. Hi everyone, Glenn James here. I host My Millennial Money, otherwise known as the father of money in Australia. Wow, that's audacious. And I'm joined by the mother of money in Australia, Victoria Devine from She's on the Money. Victoria, hello. Hello, Glenn. How are you? I'm good. Now, we're doing this random,

weird public service announcement today. Because we're quite frustrated and we've been having a bit of a rant over the last few weeks via our DMs and text messages and phone calls and you're in Queenstown right now having a beautiful time and I'm very envious and I'm sitting in my home office here in Melbourne and we just decided enough is enough. Let's have a conversation. Glenn, why are we so frustrated? We're so frustrated. And I think as I look out over the remarkables in Queenstown. It's nice for some, just rub it in. I know my privilege is showing, but I think, you know, it's not just us. You've had people in she's on the Money Facebook group. I've had people in my Millennial Money Facebook group

genuinely ask questions about one of the things we're going to talk about, and that's going to be these quote unquote new savings accounts and savings apps, as I use inverted commas. But we are personally frustrated about the almost ridiculous, sly, weird, false, strange. Misleading. Misleading, that's probably the word. Absolutely misleading is the word I would use. Misleading advertising. For some of the buy now, pay later products.

It's not just buy now, pay later though. It's buy now, pay later. It's credit funds. It is everyone seemingly at the moment. Totally. And we both had a pitch from a media company and they pitched both of us and that's fine. Separately, not at the same time.

Yeah, that's fine. and we welcome pitchers to advertise on the show, but this was a pitch for a buy now, pay later platform. And what stuck out to me is they said, this campaign is all about how X, and I'm not going to give the brand the light of day because I don't respect the brand, can help you manage your money and spending in a responsible way, moving away from some of the perceptions that the brand can be known for. Now, if you've got a buy now, pay later brand, That is, whether it's regulated or not, a credit brand because you are receiving items that you haven't paid for and you owe somebody money. What's on the box isn't necessarily what's in

the box. Would you agree, Victoria? Absolutely. And I think I'm just incredibly frustrated because we are intelligent people, as in not you and I, Glenn, that's overly ambitious, but our community are intelligent people. But when they read the advertising that comes through their Facebook platforms or their Instagrams and they say, this product doesn't impact your credit score or this product helps your savings, you just go, hold up. It does neither of those things because one, it's not truly savings when I'm referring to this other credit product. And two, if we're going to talk about this buy now, pay later program that's saying it doesn't impact your credit score look they're not wrong it doesn't impact your credit score

until you make a misstep and I think that that's where we really need to be talking because it absolutely does have an impact on your credit score your ability to get a mortgage to service a mortgage to do all of those things and it just feels so hypocritical of us to be talking about these products in a good way which makes me wonder why these media companies even contact us to talk about them in the first place, given you and I, Glenn, are so vocal about not liking them. Yeah, totally. And once I actually stepped off the plane at Queenstown Airport, on the baggage carousel, there was an advertisement and you actually sent me the same one and a lot of you may have seen it. And it said, stop paying money to use money. What? That's exactly what I'm doing

by using your product, you potatoes. And to me, it sounds cute and it looks amazing. It's like you don't get a pass on maths. One plus one always equals two. You don't get a pass on gravity. There are basic laws that you don't get a pass on. And no matter how amazing the marketing is, at the end of the day, you are borrowing money from an entity and you are receiving consumables and you have to pay money back. So that, my friends, is consumer debt, whatever way you cut it. And I just want to be clear for my audience, and I know this is going on both podcasts, that I'm really strict about what stuff that I put in front of you. And if, for example, you can use these products, quote unquote, responsibly and all that stuff,

that's fine. But I think it would be irresponsible for me to advertise these because there could be a percentage of people who misuse it and get caught out. And I'm just not going there. Absolutely. And that's a blanket rule on our podcast as well, to not promote any level of credit product, no buy now, pay later, nothing that puts my community in a worse off position than they started in. So the sponsors and the people that we work with are always people that I genuinely think, wow, like they've got a cool product. It might not be for absolutely everybody in my community and that's okay. No one can ever be everything to everybody. But I know if my community engages with them, they will never be in a worse off position because I cannot imagine

putting something in front of you that would make a detrimental impact to your financial future because I'm working so hard to put you in a good financial position. Why would I stunt that? Why would I stunt that? But also, why would I risk my reputation of doing the best by you by working with these businesses? Yeah, and I just want to quickly talk about the risks that I see with the buy now, pay later, and also the risks of these new tech stuff that's coming out there where they will prepay your salary daily.

Oh, it makes me sick. I know. And what it is, it's the payday lender of this generation. and it's not teaching you how to manage your own money. I've crapped on for a long time, Victoria. For me, it's been hard to outsource my diet and weight loss to a diet shake. I'm better off to learn how to eat good. I'm better off to learn how to get into routine. And it's the same with money. We can't outsource our money management to a product that's designed to potentially make money off us. Now, the way I see it is, sure, you might get something and pay it off in four

easy installments. And because at the time of recording right now, it's unregulated. So, we're going to start to see eight easy installments. We're going to start to see 52 easy installments. The problem is, Victoria, you buy that nice lounge on Laterpay or whatever they're calling themselves. In, I don't know, two weeks time, if your situation changes and you can't afford the rest of the payments, you've now got a product that's probably not worth what you paid for it. So, you're in a pickle. So, I think it's about learning how to control your money yourself and keeping your life as simple as possible. But that's not cool. That doesn't have an app that doesn't it doesn't feel fun and sophisticated and and all that stuff it's like

when you start talking about investments and the best types of investments are boring the best type of money management is bland and I'm really sorry it's not going to come with a shiny app it's not going to come with another business's commitment to give you access to your wage in real time like I'm so done with it if it's boring you're probably doing the right thing totally and just on these unregulated buy now, pay later products, banks know what debt is, right? So, if you're applying for a mortgage, while it could be completely off your credit profile, the banks will look at your bank statements. And if they see all these different company names, they know that you are using debt in your day-to-day life, and it can have an impact on your borrowing capacity

for a mortgage. So it's that old saying, if it looks like a duck, if it quacks like a duck, if it walks like a duck, if it sips Lipton iced tea like a duck and it's none of your business, that meme, guess what, Victoria? It's probably Glenn in a duck suit. It's probably me in a duck suit. So I just want everyone, particularly in the My Millennial Money world to know that I'm calling things how they are. It's not a cute app. It's not sophisticated. it's a debt that you are using to buy consumables that are reducing in value it's easy to learn how to control your money yourself by being engaged in our respective Facebook groups. 100% and I think that what you were saying before we started recording this is actually really important

here as well and that's you know you might be using Afterpay and saying look I'm really responsible with it and use it really well but it's like okay but if you had a really good cash flow and budget system and there are many out there like you've got one Glenn I've got one like there are other ones you could google and find but if you've got a good one and you're using it properly you don't actually need a tool like cough uh buy now pay later schemes I keep going to say the brand names but I know that we really shouldn't play slander games um and all this is allegedly to their lawyers listening yeah if anyone's listening this is allegedly but at the same time it's not allegedly like I'm on one of these pay it forward uh websites what do you call

it like it's like a it's a payday loan like essentially it is a payday loan and I've done an entire podcast episode on payday loans and to be honest I find them disgusting they really prey on the vulnerable people that need more money right now and have redonkulous amounts of interest payable if you don't meet a payment or you you know slip up in any way but they have beautiful branding. And they say, look, this company gives you access to your wage in real time. Like, you know, you earn money, get, get your hands on it today. And it's just, it breaks my heart because I know that their branding is working on people because they have the money to put it there. Like, I don't care if you're the quote new way to get your pay today. Like if you need a pay

advance and you are so far up, uh, let's call it the proverbial Creek without a paddle, like you actually need to go and talk to your employer. Like most employers are going to be somewhat flexible on a salary if you're a full-time employee. And like I'm an employer and Glenn, I'm sure you would be in exactly the same position. If one of my team came to me and said, hey V, I'm really struggling with money. Is there anything you can do to help? And they just needed an advance on their salary. I'd absolutely talk to them about making that happen so that my team didn't end up in debt and I'm sure most places are like that and if they can't there's a lot of places out there like the debt helpline like oh my gosh they do an incredible job if you need to

talk to financial counsellors but these companies are paying an absolute premium to come up at the top of your google search if you're struggling with anything and you're googling how to get pay advance or how to get money today they're going to come up and they're going to essentially prey on you and put you in a worse off long-term financial position. And it just frustrates me beyond belief. Yeah. And I think I've copped criticism for making these type of comments before, but I will say it again now, if you are- I got criticism here, shower it on me again. Yeah. Basically, if you're in a position and you happen to be a low income owner or you're on a disability pension, or, you know, you've hit hard times. When we go back to the laws of gravity,

like there's actually no, there's no way around these laws. And the same with money, there's no way around money laws. Now, if you aren't doing it great at the moment, the worst time to go into any type of debt is when you're not doing it great. Because what can happen is you are already struggling, you go into debt and then you then basically get behind again. And then if your situation gets worse, you've doubled down the negative money vibe in your life. So while I don't have all the answers, I would encourage anyone that's doing it tough. I'd encourage anyone who's on a low income, you particularly need to stay away from consumer debt. 100%. I couldn't agree more. And I get a lot of criticism about this as well,

because I get people sliding into my DMs on She's On The Money saying, but V, you know, I've been using this and it's a really helpful tool. And look, I get it. And if you're listening to this and you go, hey, cool, I'm financially free and I use this tool and it's not impacted me in the slightest. Okay. Well, maybe this isn't a podcast aimed at you. Maybe have a think about the people that aren't using it responsibly and stop taking it so personally when I say, hey, this is so negative. I'm so grateful that you're having a positive experience with this tool and this product. And that is so great. At the end of the day, I think Glenn, you and I can agree it's a genius business model. Like it's a fantastic company. Like it's so good, but for the

consumers that aren't as educated, for the consumers that are more vulnerable, for the consumers that do lean towards FOMO and getting into personal debt. Like this is not something I want you to get involved with. And I think, you know, Glenn and I have been talking recently about how do we have this conversation and how do we open this up without coming across as condescending entitled people who are like, just don't do it. Like, I get it. But I think that's why we've decided to go about it in this way, Glenn, and just have an open, honest conversation about how bad it is. Oh, totally. And, you know, again, I'm talking about consumer debt. We're talking about people who might be struggling out there. You know, we are talking about, you know,

one of these providers say their average transaction is $150. Now, I would suggest if you need $150 split up for an item of luxury, you might have a bigger problem in your life. Now, I totally know that I'm sitting in Queenstown, I'm privileged, I'm overlooking the most beautiful vista, but I do know I have been up at night with anxiety. I have been up at night with literally $1,500 to my name. Like, I have been there. So, I am acutely aware of what it's like to go through a hard patch. I'm acutely aware of what it's like to have no money, but I just want to encourage you listening, it's not forever. It's just for now and tomorrow is a better day. But we need to make sure we keep away from any type of consumer debt. And everything I've said, I've said with love. And please, if you are struggling, reach out, as you said, Victoria, the debt- They have free financial counselors who provide information and advice and they will point you

in the right direction. They might even help you get a NILS loan, which is a loan that doesn't have any, any interest on it at all, because it's existing purely to help you. If you are a low income earner, like there are options out there. You just need to connect with the right people who can help you on that journey, as opposed to just wondering whether these solutions are there and you're just like, yep, but I'll just go do this and I'll work it all out later. Like it's such a bad mindset to be in. Like, don't ever be too proud to just put your hand up and be like, hey, I'd love to talk to a financial counsellor. Like, I'm sure you guys are lovely people as well. Like your financial situation does not define who you are as a person. And I think

that's really important to point out as well. And while we're talking about maybe people struggling and that is 100% legitimate and real in our community, but I want to flick over to the other side of the coin, Victoria, if you're in a relationship or you're single and maybe you've got some really cracking money coming the door and you've got debt everywhere because you've been sloppy, I think it's just you need to take ownership of that debt that you've got. You need to first decide to have no debt anymore, so no new debt, and then you've just got to work at it. You've got to hustle. You've got to grind. Usually, I don't know about you, Victoria, but when working with clients, I found that we haven't come into $10,000 worth of credit card

or personal loan debt from one transaction. It's been death by a thousand cuts. Yeah. At the end of the day, debt is just an outcome of you spending more than you're earning and just not keeping track of your budget and cashflow. It's not something that people get into on purpose. It is always an accident. No one goes in, gets a personal loan. They're like, I cannot wait to be 20 grand in the hole. It's always about just not managing your cashflow efficiently. And I think that that's where every good money habit begins. And I guess to bookend this debt conversation, there's no magical way out of debt. You've got to put the hard yards in. Don't worry about going to those companies that charge you to manage the

debt for you because they're just going to consolidate the debt, put it into one easy payment and it's just not really doing anything except for moving the debt. And it's also not teaching you anything. It's taking it away from you as if a parent would take something off a child they can't do yet. It's not teaching you any good money habits. It's not teaching you anything that you can do constructively. It's actually putting you in a worse off position because it creates the feeling of safety so that you feel as though you're in control when in reality you're not. And once you're out of debt and you no longer need them, you end up in the same place again. You end up going backwards, which is really frustrating and not what you

would have ever intended. Totally. Now to bookend the piece about buy now, pay later, before pay, all that crap that's out there, jump in, use Victoria's spending plan, use my spending plan, use a spending plan. Do not outsource your budget management to an app. And I'll just finish by saying, Victoria, if you love small business, do not use buy now, pay later with small businesses because they make 75% of their money from the retailer. And if you love small business, you'll just be gouging them. It's not helping them. Totally. So. Not helping them. And I think that that's what's really upsetting as well, because it's like a rock and a hard place, right? So, small businesses want to have afterpay

because they know that when offering a consumer afterpay, they're more likely to purchase because of our bad spending mentality but at the same time as a consumer we have so much more power and we are able to put that power in the hands of small businesses when we buy directly so I think that if you really want something and you are going to spend the money anyway definitely just kind of bite the bullet don't use something like an after paying app you know it's very hard for the small business but at the same time like they're so reliant on it which is so frustrating and the reason they're reliant on it is because, you know, we have the ability to make snap decisions and Afterpay is one of those. Absolutely. So, as much as I love money like

the next person, unfortunately- I think you love it more. No, no. I like it just as much as the next person, but, you know, don't reach out to me. Well, you can reach out to me, but I'll be polite with declining your offer to sponsor My Millennial money if you're a consumer debt product. Right. Finally, for those who might be out of debt and for those who are saving, Victoria, interest rates are really crap at the moment. They're so terrible. But quickly touch on, Glenn, why are they terrible? It's not because banks are trying to do the wrong thing by us, is it? No. So, essentially, it all goes back to central banks and governments wanting to stimulate the economy and get money moving.

and they effectively make money cheap. So money flows more. If you think of a race car that's going really fast, you've got to put the brakes on it before a big crash on the corner. As interest rates rise, it's like putting the brakes on that racing car to try and slow it down. So the lower the interest rates are is sometimes a sign of the economy needs some stimuli, if you will. and at the moment, the economy seems like it needs some stimuli and we are at the point where interest rates that the Reserve Bank in Australia set are at historical lows, which means the banks are borrowing that money at a low rate

and are also paying interest at a low rate as well. Is that what you wanted me to say, Victoria? No, that was pretty good. That is pretty good. I mean, at the end of the day, it might not be beneficial for your savings account, but it absolutely is. If you're in any kind of debt, like a mortgage, it means you've got lower interest rates. And there's lots of people going around at the moment saying things like money's never been so cheap. Like if

you're going to buy, like that's a really great time to take out a mortgage. It's also a really great time to refinance your mortgage so that you can save some money on the interest that would be payable on your mortgage. Also just to caveat that, do not drop your interest rate and then start paying the lower amount per month, continue paying the same amount. So we're out of debt quicker. But I think that something that is frustrating, and I know that you're leading down the garden path to Glenn, are these new savings apps that are not really savings apps. Is that where we're going, Glenn? We are there, Victoria. We have arrived. And if it's advertised that you can get 3% on your savings, asterisk, we know 3% is more than

1%. That's pretty sexy, Glenn. I like that. For a savings account in 2021, 3%, that is wild. How do they do it? Well, the thing is, when we look at investment returns, generally speaking, the higher the return, the higher the risk. So, anything above the cash rate of, let's just call it 1% in your normal online savings account, it may imply two things. One, the bank is wanting to pay more interest for new customers to get more money in the door as a promotion. Or two, that interest rate is not an interest rate linked to straight up cash. So, what does that mean, father of finance? So it means you are not investing your savings into a bank account within an app.

So you just said investing, which is not what I said I wanted to do with my savings. That's right, sweet one. That's right. Can I be more condescending? I don't know. But that's what's frustrating, right? These apps are saying this is where your savings go to grow and they're using terms like savings and, you know, put your savings here so you can reach your goals faster. If that's not misleading,

I don't know what is, because you're actually an investment product. You are a credit fund. You are targeting 3% return. You are not guaranteeing that in the way that a bank would. And whilst we know that a bank can't guarantee it and they turn around one day and say, hey, they, um, yeah, we're dropping from, you know, 2.5% interest down to one and you go, okay, well, that kind of sucks, but, you know, I know my money's safe. You're actually investing in these funds and there's risk that you might not think you're taking in them. And that's incredibly concerning. And I will say as well, while you said that the banks won't guarantee a percentage rate, the government will guarantee up to $250,000. Yeah, but that's different than

an interest rate. So, that's different in a return. It just means that if your money is sitting in a bank account, a registered ADI. Is that right? An authorised deposit institution. Yeah. But if they are a bank and they are an ADI, and I think that it's important to stipulate that because recently there's been a lot of apps coming out where you think that they might be a bank and they're not. If they don't have an ADI, they don't have this government guarantee, which I think is incredibly important to have because it means that if the bank went completely flop, your money is safe still. The government will make sure it comes back to you. Whereas in these savings apps, that is not true. Now, another risk with these funds, and we will explain how they work.

If you invest your money, quote unquote, as they would like to say, move your savings to this app, there's a liquidity risk as well. So, you could say, I want to take my money out. they could actually say, no, we can't get that to you. So, basically, what you've done is to get that higher return of even 3%, so 2% higher than your normal bank account, you've had to take on some inherent risk. And some of that inherent risk is your capital is not secure. And some of that inherent risk is when you want to call on your money, it might not be available. Now, these credit funds, Victoria, could be made up of a couple of things. Number one, it could be made up of government bonds. Now, government bonds is where you might give some money to the government

and they will guarantee a return each year for the length of the bond. They could be corporate bonds. So, CBA might want to do a capital raise and they say, hey, give us some money. We'll give you X amount over this amount of time for this long. Usually, it's higher than the cash rate to attract that money. Thirdly, it could be some private mortgages. So, some rich people might get together and fund mortgages for people who might not qualify for a loan with a traditional lender. And fourthly, it could be a peer-to-peer lending scenario where Glen James says, here's $1,000. I will invest that. That company will loan that out to somebody who needs $1,000, Let's charge them 6% and then give me 3% and then also keep 3% for their own profit.

So, Victoria, a credit fund is basically a fund where private money is pooled together and then is providing credit to different, I guess, facilities or end users or endpoints. Exactly. and I think that a really important thing to point out here is that these aren't bad things you know I've got a bond as a part of my portfolio and I feel like it's really important to stipulate that we don't not like these things what we don't like is the lack of transparency around these things and you being able to make an educated decision on these things and that's really hard when you're not a financial advisor because these websites and these PDSs are beautiful

and it's not about what is included because the amount of ticks on the website that's in front of me right now, they're like, oh my gosh, this bond portfolio, it's held by this security. And you know, our underlying investments are for investment grade and they're a rating of A and you look at it and you go, wow, this is pretty good. This is nice. But to me, it's about what they don't say. It's about what's not mentioned. And you as a consumer, who's not a financial advisor, you don't know what you're looking for and you don't know what it's missing. And I think the most concerning thing about this is if I scroll all the way down to the very, very bottom of this website, in the tiniest font, Glenn, it says withdrawal rights are subject to liquidity

and may be delayed or even suspended. That means you might not get your money back. Totally. and if they are suggesting you put your savings there like the amount of times i say not your savings new savings have your emergency fund make sure that you've always got access to quick cash investing is a completely different thing it feels so convoluted for them to be saying just add your savings and plant the seeds so that you can watch your investment grow like what no this is so misleading and it is not the right thing to be doing yeah i guess what we're calling for is to write what's inside the box on the front of the box very clear. And I'm not against-

We deserve clarity. We deserve transparency. We deserve to have people trying to put us in the best possible position, not trick us with fancy marketing. It's beautiful. Like I bet they paid a lot of money for this website, Glenn. I actually like the website. I love the website, but that is not the point. That's right. But also here, our hearts, like we've got nothing against credit funds. We've got nothing against bond funds and all that. They can play a part in your overall portfolio. If you call your super fund at the moment, you'll probably have a 10 to 15% allocation to defensive assets. And that will be made up of bonds and credit funds and whatnot. But please don't say it's a freaking account that looks like

a savings account because a savings account, I get access to my money at call. It's backed by the government's guarantee, but it only is 1% interest. These funds may be a 3% interest, but the other inherent risks. So if in doubt, I think the answer's no. It's a good metaphor for life, isn't it, Victoria? If in doubt, no. If in doubt, run away. Or just watch the movie Yes Man and do everything. Don't do that. Do not do that. Do not listen to Glenn's advice. It is terrible. Okay. So no, no. Like my yes, if in doubt, no, when it comes to your money stuff, but life advice, watch Yes Man. Yeah. Okay. Watch Yes Man. But when it comes to investing, you know, and it comes to

your money, please, please, please understand what you're putting your money into. And I think I'm incredibly frustrated by this because, you know, this particular website that we're talking about, Glenn, one, yeah, you're right. It's beautiful, but it's very, she's on the money. And I have had so many people slide into my DMs, be like, Hey V, I've seen this new thing. You're involved, right? No, I have nothing to do with this company. No, like, because obviously the targeted marketing for these guys would be very similar to our demographics of our community because it's very feminine, right? Like it's not really a masculine type of app. It's definitely very female focused, which is fine. But because of that, I think there seems to be this level

of association. And I just want to stamp that out. I have nothing to do with these people. And to be honest, I wouldn't even work with them, not because they're bad people. I'm sure they're delightful, but because it is not putting you in the best possible position and because it is not transparent, it is not fair. Well, there you have it. Good, good summary, Victoria. Now some final thoughts. Do you want to, um, I guess, Oh, firstly tell, cause I haven't had you on, uh, my millennial money. Tell us about your book. Oh my gosh, thank you. It comes out on the 16th of June, Glenn, which is very, very fun. And I've spent the last week recording the audio book of it, which if you're a podcaster, you go into feeling really confident about. It is not the same as

recording a podcast. It is so much different. And I have been absolutely zonked all week because it is exhausting, but it is so fun. So who should buy your book? What's it about? And we'll put a link in the show notes of this episode if someone wants to buy it. So the book is essentially a summary of Shoes on the Money, right? Like it is called Shoes on the Money and it is a book about taking charge of your financial freedom and your financial life. And it is everything from A to Z in exactly the same way that I think you're writing a book, Glenn. They'll be best friends on the shelves, I hope. Yeah, mine's called He's on the Money. Oh, good. Yeah, that's absolutely not a conflict of my copyright. That's so good for you. Yeah, that's fine. I will take 100%

licensing fee. So I'm more than happy for you to do that. I'll just charge you 100% of your profits. Victoria, take 110. Thank you. So kind. But essentially, I want to teach you how to be more secure, more independent and more informed with your money. And this book does all of that. So everything from A to Z, we go all through saving, investment, how to get out of debt, how much it costs to have a baby, what that looks like. We go through how much it costs to go to preschool and primary school. We talk about estate planning. So for me, it's A to Z, but it's not going to be something that is condescending or rude. Like I know you because I am you. And that's why I've been so excited to create this book. And I know that you're doing yours at the same time,

Glenn. So hopefully these two books can change a generation. Well, we'll give it a shake. That's for sure. I'm excited about it. Yeah. I'm looking forward to getting my mitts on a copy. You'll have to send me a signed copy. Oh, I don't know. You didn't even send me any of your bloody money cards. So no, no, no, no. They're seriously in the mail. Oh, sure. They are. No, no, no word of a I told Jess last week to post you down a handful. I love that. I'm going to give them to my community. Totally, do it.

I mean, I had to order a thousand of them. That's right. Was it because were you listening to my podcast? You never listen to my podcast, which is fair because you're not going to learn anything from it. But I actually said on my podcast the other day, I was like, everybody slide into Glenn's DMs, tell him to give me free stuff.

Yeah. Slide in everyone. It's the wild west in there. But there we have it. You can check out Victoria's book, She's on the Money. We'll put a link in the show note. You're very kind. I'm just keen to have a bit of a PSA, public service announcement.

Just want to call out things for what they are. And I'm sorry, I'm not looking at the Zoom screen, Victoria. I'm looking at the mountain range. That is my favorite mountain range. I'm so envious when you're like, oh my gosh, I'm just staring at the Remarkables. I'm like, cool. That's nice.

And I just think we need to call things out for what they are at the risk of, I don't know, the cards falling where they may. I certainly don't use any buy now, pay later stuff. No, absolutely not. Any financially successful people that I know stick away from it. They're not trying to get cute with their money. They're not trying to out game the system. And if it walks like a duck and all that duck stuff, it's a quackity quack quack. Yeah. And I just think it's really important to remember that you know we are people as well and we are small businesses and as much as Glenn and I obviously have the privilege of getting on a podcast and saying hey like we want what's best

for you this is also and I don't mean it in a bad way because to be honest I'd never make any other decision but as small businesses like Glenn and mine it's obviously financially detrimental to say stuff like this publicly because we're not going to get to work with companies and other companies might see this and go, Oh my gosh, I can't believe they had that opinion. And our product isn't the same, but we don't want to work with them because of their opinions on this. And to be honest, I'm all right with that because I just want what's best for you. That's where she's on the money came from. It's where my millennial money came from. Like neither of these businesses were started because we thought, Hey, we can make money from podcasting. It was

started because we both genuinely love talking about money and genuinely want to connect with more people about this topic that we are so passionate about and we're just so lucky to have made it our careers so I think it's really important to remember that you know we're trying to not be judgmental here we're trying to be really honest reliable and relatable for you but this does come at a level of cost to us and it's not a bad cost to be honest it's a cost that I'm absolutely happy to pay but I don't want you to think that we're getting on here to just blow our own horns um we're getting on here because we genuinely think it's the best thing for you and it is really irresponsible of us to not speak up in situations like this

totally could not have said it any better well maybe a little bit um okay well you why don't you start your own podcast hey everyone victoria and i are good friends and we always have digs at each other so it's all good yeah that's not legit i actually got a message a little while ago they were like oh glenn's been so mean to you recently and i was like mate you should see what i send back yeah i can't remember what you said you were like oh victoria or something and i was like excuse me like he's saying that back like do you realize we're friends in real life how funny gosh i love it all right such an amazing chat between you and glenn v like all those things you just don't

think about how the apps that shall not be named are going to affect your life and I think it's really important that in the future in the next couple of weeks or so maybe we do a full episode a full deep dive you and G can kind of chat about how those things affect your future and the big impact they can actually have on your finances and your whole life absolutely and the one thing that I really want to leave you guys with is that we're not saying these companies are bad inherently. We're just saying that people that actually use them are often not in the best possible financial position. I'm not saying, oh my gosh, you're so vulnerable, but that's what they're kind of relying on, especially with these new marketing techniques and the things that

they're putting into market. It is savage. And you know, Tony, you and I have had this conversation and our whole team has this conversation because we've got this big group chat on all our computers and we often send photos of marketing to each other and we're like, how is this legal? I mean, you and Glenn mentioned a few times during that chat, like how beautiful the website is. Like it's that dopamine hit of, oh my God, what a beautiful website. And it's, it's like a good smelling stranger. You're like, oh my God, I feel like I can trust you because I like what I see. And, um, and as always, if you've got any questions at all, please pop them into the Facebook community, um, search She's On The Money on Facebook. Um, and we can have some

really great chats about it, but definitely we'll do an ep very soon about the potential outcomes from using these kinds of services absolutely it's a chat I'm really glad that Glenn and I had recorded because more often than not Glenn and I have these conversations that we get a bit ranty and they're not recorded conversations and I just feel like being a fly on the wall in a conversation like that with myself who's a financial advisor and Glenn who was a financial advisor for more than 10 years who runs arguably one of Australia's most successful money podcasts as well like it's just a powerful chat that I hope starts to go further like I want to see more regulation on these things and just people taking more responsibility for the impact they're

having not necessarily the bottom line of their businesses yeah I could not agree more and you spoke really really well and it's just nice hearing two people like you said that are extremely experienced in finance but chat in a way that we can understand and we can then go hang on i do need to reassess the way that i'm accessing these services and stuff so i think that lots of people will get something out of that but like i said any questions at all please pop them into our facebook group search facebook for she's on the money anything else you want to let people know on this saturday no absolutely not but as always just before we do head off today we'd like to acknowledge and pay respect to australia's aboriginal and torres strait islander peoples

they're the traditional custodians of the lands the waterways and the skies all across australia We thank you for sharing and for caring for the land on which we are able to learn. We pay our respects to elders past and present and we share our friendship and our kindness. The advice shared on She's on the Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money exists purely for educational purposes. We hope you learn something. We do, we really do. And should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision.

And we promise Victoria Devine is an authorised representative of Australia Pacific Funds Management Proprietary Limited, ABN 34132463257, AFSL 339151. Oh, why am I here? You can do this yourself. Thanks. Why did I come in on a Saturday if you know what you're doing? I genuinely have no idea why you're here.

Okay, well, you'll be cutting this. We're going to thank you. I'm going to cut the end. You're the audio wizard that we're going to thank because you can do this yourself. Go ahead. and thank you to our team of victoria the audio wizard who will be cutting today's podcast jokes on you guys if this was cut by me and it was in your ears it wouldn't be in your ears it would

be on the cutting room floor anyway we hope you have a brilliant weekend and we can't wait to see you bright and early on monday morning love you bye