She's On The Money - BONUS EPISODE: The Psychology Of Saving

Episode Date: October 29, 2022

We thought we'd spice up your Sunday with a very special BONUS episode all about the psychology of saving with Victoria Devine and special guest Dr Lili Sussman.Lili is a Social Scientist and the Chief Strategy Officer at Wisr. Her PhD research at Harvard University was on decision-making, behavioral economics, and psychology in foreign policy decision-making. Don't miss this fascinating discussion about the last great taboo of financial stress, the disconnect between intention and action, the importance of self love, how to make meaningful change and SO much more!Acknowledgement of Country By Natarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements.The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN - 321649 27708,AFSL - 451289.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello, my name is Natasha Nabanunga-Bamblett. I'm a proud Yorta Yorta, Kernai, Wolperi and Awadjeri woman. And before we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which this podcast is recorded on Awadjeri country, acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through. As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and the storytelling of you to make a difference for today and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it. She's on the money. She's on the money.

Hello and welcome to a bonus episode of She's On The Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. My name is Victoria Devine, and today we have a very special bonus episode of the show that is looking at the psychology of savings. And we also have a very special guest. My friend, Dr. Lily Sussman, is a social scientist and the chief strategy officer at Wiser. Lily's PhD research at Harvard University was on decision-making, behavioural economics and psychology and foreign policy decision-making.

Throughout her career, Lily has been guided by a purpose to understand and address profound human flourishing, including financial, relational and psychological wellbeing. She is supporting Australians to make effective and incremental changes in aligning everyday money behaviours to deeper values. and I cannot think of something that aligns more to She's On The Money than Dr. Lily Sussman. As Chief Strategy Officer, Lily conceptualized Wiser today from scratch, and we are, or I am, super thrilled to have her here with us today. Lily, welcome to the show.

Oh, thank you, Victoria. You know that I'm a massive fan of this community. I'm super passionate about what we're talking about and everything this community cares about. So it's really wonderful to be here today talking with you about financial health. I feel like I am so excited to welcome you to the show because this might sound really new to everybody listening, but you have been slaving away over this for literally years. And I even got the opportunity to sign an NDA and be brought into the loop literally more than a year ago to talk to you about this and, you know, play a little role in it. And I'm just so glad that it is launched. And I'm just honestly so excited because I 100% identify with everything that drives you. So Lily, let's start off with

money stress. You describe money and financial stress as quote, one of the last taboos. Why do you think it's still so hard for us to open up about financial stress or talk about money with our friends and family? Oh yeah, such a good question. Money is such a big taboo in our culture. National surveys have shown that we're actually more comfortable talking with our friends about virtually anything else, like politics, religion, even things like addiction, race, marital discord, sex, we'd actually go to great lengths to avoid the subject. There was a survey done that showed that almost a third of us would rather sit through two hours of traffic or speak in front of a large audience than have to discuss this taboo subject of money.

and it's crazy because the average person is secretly worrying about it multiple times a day and the evidence shows that nearly half of Australians are regularly stressing about money but it's just so awkward to bring up right imagine one minute you're with friends and you're laughing over drinks and then the next minute someone brings up the cost of the evening out or their savings plan and the mood just like oh it just plummets and chills not in my house, my friend. Never. Not in my house. I feel like it's funny because you said people would rather sit in traffic. And the community you're talking to right now literally sit in traffic and listen to money podcasts. So we might not be able to super resonate with that. But I

feel like every other Australian, though, that's not in the She's On The Money community is like, I would literally rather sit in traffic. And then our community like, oh, when we're sitting in traffic, that's what we're doing. Exactly. But that's what makes this community so special, right? Because we're together breaking the taboo. But I think, you know, the surveys around the average person and their level of comfort talking about money socially is very, very low. And it's so awkward and it feels hard to talk about because, you know, we live in a society where sometimes we're made to feel like, or we have this implicit norm that our self-worth is somehow related or even based on how much money we have, how rich we look. And there's a

lot of shame still around not having as much money as those around us, fearing that we're somehow maybe not as valued or we don't belong if we can't keep up financially. And just makes it hard to talk about with friends, whether you're the friend with more money or the friend with less money. Why do you think we still like that though? I just genuinely, you know, obviously I'm in a very privileged position, but like, why is it still so awkward? Like, why are we feeling this way? Yeah, it's such a good question. I just think there's this implicit norm that we've been raised with, right? That money equals worth, but it's not. And I think there's also this second hidden norm that somehow we're sort of responsible for how we're doing financially. Like it's our fault

if things aren't going well, but actually, you know, both externally and internally, externally, there are systemic reasons outside of our control and you know there are things like the gender pay gap you know things you talk about a lot the fact that more women do caring professions which often pay less challenges from a changing macroeconomic environment our family histories unexpected stuff like covid job loss separation illness you know so many things happen to us we don't control that they can impact our financial lives and then internally we were never taught about money habits or the psychology behind them. And so our money behaviors are typically on autopilot and they're not our fault because of the way our brains work. And so we have to experience

sort of muddling through all of that. And we're often blaming ourselves unfairly, feeling embarrassed, feeling responsible. And who wants to talk about that with friends? I mean, I do. You do. We need to. It's so important. I do. We're really cool though. We are so cool. I feel like we excelled at school and had no friends and this is where we've ended up. And that's how we found each other. Well, you know what? I think not having friends earlier when we were nerdy. I was busy building this. You know what? It's never too late. And I think you're an expert connector and you're,

you know, this is a community where people belong and can break the taboo. And I think the antidote to that money being taboo is so key because, you know, we all say the truth will set you free, right? And we're also hardwired as social beings for connection and belonging. So we don't want to struggle in silence privately, but we have to just recognize there is still this taboo that money somehow equates with worth and that we unfairly blame ourselves. And it's just really important to see, start seeing money differently that, you know, it's a resource to live life how we want and that's all it is. And we can change it and make it better. Yeah, no, absolutely. You touched on something before that I obviously harp on about in our

community. You said it might be how we grew up and a really big part of the She's On The Money message is sharing the importance of really understanding deeply your money story and then making decisions that really align with your values. I feel like my community's heard me say that a million times. I feel like every question I get asked, I'm like, well, it depends on your values. And then when money stories are introduced to us, we seem to be shook by this concept because we've never heard of it before. So like, why do you think that is? And why do you think that not many of us know how important our money stories are to understand deeply? Yeah, you know, psychology and managing our health and behavior, they're so foundational

to our wellbeing, but they're not taught in school at all. And exploring our values and our behavior and the psychology behind them is just not something we naturally do, right? And we just talked about how money is still taboo for so many of us and hushed up. And the culture has completely misrepresented money as about being about numbers.

You know, so what would, you know, our beliefs, emotions, or values have to do with it? You know, if you want to get on top of your finances, the things that were and often still are considered necessary are things like knowledge and practical skills. Like people talk about budgeting, spending less, saving more, investing, growing your wealth. Here's how you do it. But the problem is that knowledge is necessary, but not sufficient for behavior change.

So when we're struggling or we want to do better, we're used to thinking, okay, well, what more information do I need? rather than going and try to figure out what's causing the struggle, like what's actually underneath what I'm experiencing and what's a real solution. The real solution is always around, it's not about being more rational or more mathy or getting more money knowledge. It's actually about getting clearer on our psychology and our habits and the underlying stuff that's happening in our brains that's behind it all. So we need to understand the context that's creating the behaviors and the feelings. And we need to get into our values

and money stories, none of which happens on its own, right? Yeah, never. We just are not taught to do that. We don't do that in everyday life. So it's no surprise that we don't understand money. We don't understand why we're managing and spending money and thinking about money the way that we do. But luckily, there's more and more conversations like this one in our culture that's really having an impact and there's growing recognition of why is it that our values and our psychology is so important? And what's the relationship between what we see when we open up our banking app or transaction balances and our habits, which are often hidden, and then psychology underneath that? Yeah, it's crazy. I feel like so many of us have grown up with this

underlying assumption that $1 plus $2 equals $3. And that's how money works. And really, it's actually about behaviors and thoughts and feelings and the transactions that those dollars create. That's what money is about. And I just think so many times we just think about the actual coins or the actual notes, and that's actually not what money is in our society. It drives so many different things. And we know, or I know deeply that you are so wildly passionate about the brain and psychology and behavioral change. And you mentioned it just before. So I want to know, like, how do we change our habits? How do we actually do this? Because so many of us find it so hard. Why? Yeah. Well, you know, I think that's such an important question, not just in,

you know, our area of financial health, but of course, health overall, right? And preventive health. Behavior change is a holy grail of preventive health. And the thing about behavior change is that it's definitely possible, but it's not easy. It doesn't happen naturally. So our brains are designed to conserve energy and create routine so that we're not constantly making unnecessary decisions, right? And that means our brains are designed to go on autopilot. So that's what habits are, things that we do without thinking too much about them. And that is not our fault.

It's literally how our brains are designed and have evolved. But most of us do have habits that we've developed from the past that are on autopilot, And they may have been shaped over years or decades, but they may no longer be helpful to us. And we can't really see that. And every habit that we have is a habit we have in real life. It happens to be that we spend money on this habit. But, you know, it's a habit that is in the context of our lives, like, you know, whether it's takeaway or taking Ubers or online shopping. you know, every habit that we have typically adds up to hundreds or thousands or even 10,000

in the course of a year. So for example, like a very common habit, like two lattes a day adds up to over $3,000 a year, or $100 of takeaway a week adds up to over $5,000 a year. And very easily online shopping habits might add up to $15,000 a year, right? So a couple of small habitual behaviors that are on autopilot that are mostly hidden to us because they're designed that way by our brains is actually the difference between having a healthy buffer and low stress and having a lot of financial stress and maybe feeling overwhelmed. So I think the first starting point is understanding that established habits we have are not our fault, right? It's how our brains design them. But if we want to see more clearly what those habits are and then change

them, we have to go through a deliberate behavior change process. And behavior change is not impossible, as I said in the beginning, but it's not easy because we can do it when we're supported and we do it using the right methodology, which is working with how the brain likes to change. So we have established neural pathways and we have habitual thoughts and emotional responses that are mostly unseen to us. And we can start building new alternative neural pathways and changing our automatic thoughts and emotions. If we start working with the brain in the right way, we have to go through a process of frequent, but enjoyable practice, you know, build a new neuropathway that ends in the right kind of dopamine hit. And that's what we've been working

on. And that's something that technology can actually help with in order to give you that easy practice on a daily basis or frequent basis that makes behavior change much easier. So I think the overall point is just, it's not going to happen naturally. You know, we're not designed to change our behavior naturally, but can it be done? Absolutely, it can be. You mentioned before, like their habits that were formed that might not be serving us anymore. And I feel like in our community, something that we're all really good at, we don't want to admit this though, but we're really good at is kind of crucifying ourselves for the

habits that we have. Oh my gosh, I'm so silly or I'm so dumb or I cannot believe I did this. Oh, it's the worst. and we bury our heads in the sand. And I say that in a way that isn't me going, this is what my community does. Like I do it too. I feel like it's innately human to always crucify past us for decisions we made when we didn't have the tools and resources available to us to make the decision that we would have today. But from your perspective, like you're literally a doctor in this space. You are one of the smartest women I have ever met. Talk to me about how important it

is to have a level of self-compassion for yourself and like how do we know when to be tough but also when to be really kind to ourselves because I think that we're really bad at doing that sometimes just as the human race like not even just as women or just as you know the she's on the money community I feel like each and every single person crucifies themselves for past mistakes oh my god we do we do I think it's a very human thing to do to be tough on ourselves and And especially, it makes sense in light of what we were talking about earlier, how we feel like we're responsible for everything that's happened, you know, even if that's not true. You know, we are not the architects of evolution and how our brain was built, nor did we choose our families of origin and our upbringings and, you know, our education systems or the way the system is shaped. Like, we're actually not responsible in that way.

And yet we have this notion that, okay, you know, I feel like I need to be tough on myself. I want to get better at something. So I can't afford to be self-compassionate. If I'm nice to myself, then I'm being self-indulgent or I'm being lazy, you know, and we feel like being tough on yourself, you know, that's what discipline's about. You know, I need to be disciplined. I need to be tough on myself. But actually it's another one of these misunderstandings because we mistake discipline with self-criticism.

They are actually not the same thing at all. All the research on behavior change tells us that being self-critical actually is detrimental to improving. It does not help you be disciplined and get better. The most helpful forms of discipline actually involve kindness and self-compassion and positive reinforcement. So it's interesting because when it comes to money, You know, we talked about how it's taboo, it's misunderstood, we feel responsible, and there's all these kind of, you know, misconceptions about it. And we feel like it's our fault. But it's actually really important to start with self-compassion and start with making emotionally safe space for yourself to honestly acknowledge possible shortcomings, but without worrying too much about judgment. because that emotional safe space we give ourselves is what starts the courage to make

changes and one of the key things for me to understand you know and I'm very much with you and I think this is not just something that applies to women though it's certainly been well documented as something that applies to women but also to men too which is like negative self-talk right it's just sort of runs in your brain and there's all this negative self-talk sometimes that you don't even realize is there, but the specific language we use in our self-talk makes a huge difference, right? If my self-talk when I'm stressed about money is, oh, I'm just so irresponsible or like, oh God, I'm hopeless with money. I'm such an idiot. You know, that language, that's a focus on the self rather than a focus on behavior.

A focus on behavior is something really specific about a specific behavior. It's like, You know, I bought a round when I didn't need to last night. I bought the suit to feel more confident at work, but I'm not sure it's helped me. I still feel funny at work. And that's a focus on behavior, right? We can have the same action, right? Which is like, oh, I overspent and I'm feeling bad, but what's my self-talk? Is it focusing on myself in a negative way or is it just focusing on the behavior? because one, focusing on behavior is actually helpful for behavior change and makes sense for, you know, quote unquote discipline and being tough on yourself in a positive way versus negative self-talk that focus on the self is not helpful for behavior change. And it actually gets in the way of discipline and being tough on self and improving. So self-talk is super important and self-love and compassion is a starting point for change.

It makes so much sense because saying something like, oh my gosh, I'm the worst, like that's not constructive. It doesn't actually create this ability to, you know, find a different behavior, right? You just go, I'm the worst, full stop, end of story. Like, what are you even talking about? Whereas if you go, this behavior is the worst, you go, all right, well, what am I going to do about that? And I feel like it's that next step and it just makes sense. And so many of us are guilty for it. And I was having this conversation the other day, Lily with a girlfriend. And she's like, yeah, I know you keep telling me to do these things because obviously I'm not just passionate about money on She's On The Money. I'm passionate when

I'm drinking wine on a Saturday night with my girlfriends. I'm like, oh my gosh. So this hot tip, they're just like, Victoria, stop. But I was recommending to a girlfriend who is really harsh on herself the other day. I was like, why don't you just journal it out? Like, why don't you write all of these things down? Because once you've written it down, it just kind of stares you in the face and is a lot easier to combat and she's like oh but Victoria journaling is so lame and I was like you need to move away from that because as much as I agree like journaling is not for everybody it can actually be a really constructive activity to go you know what pragmatically I'm just going to write down all these behaviors that I'm doing that I would like to reframe or change

because then you can overlay what you've been saying Lily and go well is that actually about the behavior or is that about me because if it's about me that's not helpful and we need to remove that from our language. And that's going to give you the ability to just directly see whether your negative self-talk is a really big part of your narrative or not. Because I think so many of us will go, oh, I don't have negative self-talk. Until you actually have it staring at you on a piece of paper in front of you, sometimes you just don't even realize. And it can be so detrimental. I promise the second you realize that you are being negative towards yourself and can reframe that or rephrase the way that you communicate with yourself, you become such a happier human.

And it makes me so happy to know that I get to share you and all of your hot tips with our community. Like it makes my soul so excited that these are the conversations we're having. Me too. Me too. And I just want to say to everybody that it's not our fault and this stuff doesn't come naturally. We don't just naturally, you know, know what we're thinking. We don't naturally journal. We don't naturally know our own psychology. It's not something we can expect of ourselves, I guess. It's not like another failing that I haven't already done this, you know, self-compassion is realizing like, okay, this is how our brains are built. And this is what's underlying our behavior, but you know, what can we do about it? And can we seek some

active help? And, you know, that's why we've kind of been doing the work that we've done and building Wiser today, but it's so important to start with not expecting too much of yourself. I could not agree more. All right. We do have to go to a really quick break, But on the other side of the break, I'm going to be talking to Lily about how we actually create meaningful change. So don't go anywhere, guys. All right, Lily, we are back and I am so excited. We are talking about everything when it comes to decision making and behavioral economics.

And we're talking about psychology and savings. And we're talking about Wiser Today and what you do with your work every single day. I would argue that you're just as equally passionate, if not more passionate than I am about financial literacy and creating meaningful change. And I guess that's where I really want to kick the conversation off again. And if anyone in our community is listening and really resonating with the sense of, I guess, disconnect between actions and intent, can you give us some top tips on what might get them to start creating meaningful change in their lives? Yeah. You know, you mentioned this gap between intention and action. And first of all, everyone that has a

human brain has a gap between intention and action. So we've got to normalize it. You know, it's not like the minute we think we want to do something, we can just do it. So we talked earlier about how it's not our fault that we have the habits and established neuro pathways that we do. We were not taught to manage this in school, not to mention the brain naturally evolved to make habits hard to see. And people tend to see it as a personal failure that they can't change unhelpful habits or patterns of behavior like, oh, I tried before, but I didn't succeed. So I don't trust myself to do it in this area or any other area of my life. And it's super common for the brain to engage in black and white thinking like, oh, I made a mistake or I fell off the

wagon, so I might as well give up. But in reality, if we want to change anything in our lives, we can, but change is not linear because you have to work with the brain and understand how the brain changes. So for example, existing habits, they serve a helpful function. And usually we actually have to understand the deeper need that current habits are fulfilling. Like, am I buying all these new clothes or going to the bars a lot because it gives me a sense of belonging or respect or is it comfort? The deeper needs behind our habits will help us realize what is it that we need to solve for. And then we can start changing how we solve for those needs with possibly healthier habits, but in a way that doesn't ask too much of our brain. So it's helpful to do a little bite

size bit of change at a time. We all know that if we try to crash diet or change all of our spending behavior, make big changes really quickly in two weeks, it won't work. We want fast results, but that's not how the brand changes. It's crazy, isn't it? We talk about this a lot in She's on the Money. And I think I've spoken about it on the podcast before, because I also am obsessed with psychology. Like it's not an accident that I also studied it. But I think the thing that we forget, and I think you and I were talking about this literally more than a year ago, people forget that as humans, as much as it's 2022 and we have corporate jobs and like we literally can create the life we want to create. Innately, we are individuals who have

survival mode still turned on and survival mode really leans towards being comfortable because comfort is equal to safety. And if comfort is equal to safety, why would we move away from those habits where we are so deeply connected to being able to be safe and safe is literally all our body wants. So it makes sense. That's why change is so uncomfortable because your body goes through a level of trauma to change it because you're literally like, oh my gosh, I'm not safe anymore. And I'm actually a human that needs to be safe. Like go back to cave maneria, like leave the cave, feel a little bit anxious, of course, because there are risks out there. And I just think that we forget that so deeply because we're so disconnected from that.

And that's why behavioral change is so hard to make because we're not meant to make changes if it keeps us alive, right? Yeah, totally. You know, our habits have evolved for a reason, But that doesn't mean that those reasons continue to serve us. So we can work on one habit at a time if we want to change, rather than try to change the whole constellation of all our money habits. We can practice small little changes that intentionally then result in a dopamine hit and build a positive reinforcement loop for your brain. And that's what Wiser Today is about.

And it's really important to make nonlinear progress because it just isn't like, oh, I'm going to get on this wagon of change and then everything is just going to go easy. Change that is effective and sustainable is not linear. So it's totally OK to fall off the wagon and then get back on when you're ready. That's actually a natural part of how the brain wants to change. And so you can retrain your brain and behavior over time. And the key to that is you have to feel good along the way, right? A lot of people think, oh, what about deprivation? Am I going to have to change and give up what I really care about?

Well, no, that's not going to drive sustainable change. Behavior change succeeds if you're feeling good along the way. If you let go of the guilt, you normalize the gap between intention and action. And you use science and get science-based guidance that helps you to start closing this gap between intention and action, but in a much easier kind of small bite-sized daily way. And I think learning over time about psychology and, you know, going back to your journaling example, whatever method it is, discovering over time and having the guidance to do that, what our thoughts are, just actually see what they are, realize what thoughts are running around in

our heads that might be leading to inaction or actions that are not aligned with what we really want. You know, maybe it's a lack of self-efficacy, like our lack of a belief in our own ability to achieve our goals or change, you know, or it's underlying beliefs and attitudes about the behavior we're trying to change. Like sometimes we say, for example, oh, we want to save more money, right? But if we dig into it, how we truly are thinking about saving money, it might be associated with feelings of deprivation. I don't want to be deprived. No one wants to be deprived. One out of 10 cannot recommend. Exactly. But if I'm saying that, right, if I'm saying that to myself that saving is deprivation, that's the immediate thought that comes up, then what's

that about? And is that the helpful thought? And we might have a story likewise that says, okay, it's probably not that big of a deal if we don't have an emergency fund. Maybe it's something you do when you're older? You know, whatever that story is, those underlying beliefs and attitudes, it's really beneath the surface and it's hard to see, but it might be what's really driving our behavior. So I think there's a lot of reasons why there's a very normal gap between intention and action. It's very normal. We all have it. We shouldn't blame ourselves for it, but we can do something about it. So talk to me a little bit about why financial health specifically is so important. I mean, you touched on it before. We were talking about, I guess,

behavioral-based guidance and we're talking about the science behind it. Is, I guess, money the answer? Is more money the answer or is it something else? What is driving that? Why should financial health be made a priority? Oh, such a good question. I feel like it's so misunderstood. Financial health is important because money is just a resource like health, energy, and time. It's a resource we have to earn and conserve and use. And how well we deal with this resource just has a huge impact on our lives, right? We can't escape it. It has a huge impact on our well-being and our sense of self because more money is not the answer because money itself is not the answer because even people who are rich still have to deal with this, right?

They still have to deal with the problem of how to use and manage this resource. The issues don't go away. Financial health just is something that is a part of health and life. And we see that in wealthy, dysfunctional families, we see it in lottery winners. It's well-established research that shows that a lot of lottery winners do not become happier after they win the lottery. And even the research shows that we don't become happier at a population level above a certain threshold of income, which isn't even that high. It's really not. And I think it's so surprising as well, because in Australia nowadays, and don't quote me on these statistics, you're the one coming to the table today with stats, but the average Australian income is now sitting at around

$80,000 to $82,000-ish. And that actually is the amount of money where happiness doesn't start increasing anymore after you reach that. So it's literally you earn the average amount and you aren't going to get happier the more you earn. It blows my mind. And I think that that has something to do with going back to our conversation about safety and security, because that's the amount of money that puts food on your table and makes sure all of your bills are covered and you're not deprived in any way. So anything above and beyond that is great. It's special, but it's not going to contribute to your underlying happiness. And I think that so many of us have been tricked, especially in such a commercial world now that more money is going to equal more happiness

because obviously bags and shoes and all of these other things that are material somehow impact our mental health and they really don't oh so true so true you know we talked about how looking rich is an implicit norm like it's better if you look rich but that's not true from a real happiness level, right? The research shows not true. No, that's not sexy. We've talked about this before and it's just like this idea of seeing somebody wearing all the expensive clothes and wearing all the expensive jewelry. It baffles me, right, that I saw this on social media the other day and I kind of had a little laugh to myself. Somebody posted that they'd got a new car. So like they'd posted this picture of their brand new car and it had this big red bow on it. And I was

like, wow, we're celebrating getting into debt because there's absolutely no way that that car was not financed from that individual. I just knew it. And we're celebrating taking on finance, but nobody ever posts when they, you know, make their first investment or they are taking that next step or they're making additional superannuation contributions because that's not seen as sexy, but we literally celebrating somebody going into debt. Like everyone's commenting, oh my God, congrats. Well done, girlfriend. You've done so well. Like, wow, this is amazing. And I'm like, wait, what? Like we're celebrating that, but no one's going to jump up and down about the wealth creation side of things that is actually going to create not

only financial security, but mental health, like every other kind of security that exists is going to stem from some level of financial stability. And it blew my mind. And it reminds me of that idea that fake rich now, real poor later, which we say a lot on the podcast. But wealth is kind of secret. Rich is shiny and visible and it is not actually wealth. Wealth is private. Wealth is secret. Wealth is quiet. And I think that there's something really sexy about it. Yeah, exactly. Spending is visible, but saving is invisible. Exactly. Like if you're spending and you're thinking that these material items are what brings value. Like it just is so backwards to me. It is so backwards. It really is. But you know,

I think financial health, because money is so misunderstood, because we're looking at all the wrong things and we don't understand that financial health is actually about our psychology and our personal values and healthy habits and psychology. It's so integral to our lives, but it's like the entire financial industry isn't designing for that yet, right? I'd love to see the whole industry pivot and take it seriously. Why don't we design products and services that actually help people with financial health rather than go down a path of thinking, oh, you know, money's just about dollars and cents and we're going to put all this innovation effort into an extra percent on a financial product or digitize some process so you can buy a financial product faster.

Because that's not where the money is, Lily. You and I both know that. And I mean, you're so wildly passionate about it. You've been working on Wiser today, literally for years. But I guess you and I both know that as much as you're wildly passionate about this, and this is going to have, honestly, such a big change, not only to our community, but Australia wide. But you're not doing it because it's driving profit. like it is definitely hopefully going to be profitable because it's like a business at the end of the day and the more profitable a business is the more impact it can have however like I think that you guys have a very different view of what success means and your idea of success from my perspective has never been about the dollars on your balance sheet and something I super respect about you guys because it's just every other financial institution is about that extra percent Do you know what I mean? I do. But I think that that's just because people think that the current financial products are the ones that make money. Whereas I think that people care about financial

health. We care about money in the context of our real lives. And if we're able to come up with the actually genuinely helpful products and services, that will be sustainable because people will want So I guess I feel like it's a win-win. But I think it's our job to lift the money taboo and to move financial health into the light because it is important for everybody. There shouldn't be shame around it. And we can use technology and science and everything that we are starting to learn about the brain and proven interventions around behavior change to really build completely different things. So I can imagine a really different future for money, how we talk about in our culture, the products and services that we have on offer. I think today is just, you know, we're just getting started on that. And think about how much the conversation around mental health has moved into the light since COVID. You know, things can change quickly. And I think we can start lifting the money taboo.

And that's why this community is so important. and the work that you do has such an impact on people's lives. Yeah, I honestly could not agree more, Lily. And honestly, unfortunately, that is all we have time for today. But before we go, I want to know, our community has arguably fallen in love with you after having this conversation because I know I'm obsessed with you. Where can we go to learn more about you and more about Wiser today?

You can go on the Wiser website. You can also find me on LinkedIn. And of course, I'm part of the She's on the Money community on Facebook. Love it so much. Gives me inspiration every week. You actually are, which is my favorite. I adore it. Lily is definitely part of the community, but hit her up if you want to have a chat on LinkedIn or she writes heaps of articles and is always contributing on the Wiser website. You can search her up. You can search Wiser Today up and check it all out because honestly, their work is incredible and I adore you. Thank you for joining us today, Lily. It has, as always, been such a pleasure. Likewise. Thank you so much. Love this community. Love your work. More power.

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