She's On The Money - Broken Brains: Nobody Prepares You for This Financial Emergency

Episode Date: May 20, 2025

You’ve planned your budget, built your emergency fund, and followed all the financial advice... but what happens when life throws something so big, so chaotic, that none of it is enough? In this ep we're joined by special guests, and the writers of new book Broken Brains, Jamila Rizvi and Rosie Waterland. Two women whose lives were turned upside down by illness, trauma, and the brutal reality of trying to keep your head above water when your brain and body won’t cooperate, and the bills keep coming anyway. We talk about the invisible costs of being unwell, the gap between public support and real-life needs, and the quiet shame that follows financial instability and even lasagna inequality (yes, really). It’s raw, it’s funny, it’s deeply human, and it might be exactly what you need to hear right now. Content Warning: This episode contains discussions of serious mental illness, trauma, childhood abuse, psychiatric care, and financial distress. Please listen with care, and know that support is available. If you or someone you know is struggling, contact Lifeline at 13 11 14 or visit Beyond Blue. Broken Brains by Jamila Rizvi and Rosie Waterland – Grab your copy here!Follow Rosie Waterland on Instagram and follow Jamila Rizvi on Instagram Acknowledgement of Country By Natarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements. The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs.  Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN - 321649 27708,  AFSL - 451289.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello, my name is Natasha Nabanunga-Bamblett. I'm a proud Yorta Yorta, Kernai, Wolperi and Awadjeri woman. And before we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which this podcast is recorded on Awadjeri country, acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through. As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and the storytelling of you to make a difference for today and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it. She's on the money. She's on the money.

hello and welcome to she's on the money the podcast that helps you feel good about money even when life is falling apart a little bit or a lot i'm victoria divine and today we are talking about something that doesn't come with a budget template or a five-step financial plan. We're talking about what it really costs to survive when your brain, your body, and your entire world stop cooperating. Because sometimes the hardest thing isn't managing your money. It's managing to stay afloat at all. And yet, rent is still due. Groceries still cost money. Life doesn't pause just because you are struggling. And that's the reality for my two guests today who know this a lot better than most. Jamila Rizvi is a best-selling author and advocate who

at 31 was diagnosed with a rare and aggressive brain tumour. Rosie Waterland is a writer and comedian whose childhood was shaped by poverty, addiction and survival and whose adult life has been shaped by complex trauma. Together they've written Broken Brains, a raw, funny and painfully honest look at what happens when your health, your finances and your sense of self all come under pressure. Jamila and Rosie, we are genuinely so excited to have you on the show. Welcome. Thank you. Thanks, we're excited to be here. Yeah, we're psyched. I am very excited. You have just published your book Broken Brains and it is all about your personal experiences, your illnesses and shame and the system that then made it even harder for you guys to thrive. Talk to me about

what your broken brain journey has looked like in real life. Well, why don't I go first and then Rosie can tell you a bit about her because you guys are so different but then when you come together in the book it just makes sense we're also so the same yes like it just it was amazing I was kind of like before obviously having a look at it being like okay all right read it and I'm like this makes so much sense yeah yeah so I was diagnosed with a brain tumor called a cranio pharyngeoma when I was 31 quite an unusual kind of brain tumor so it affects every one in one million to one and a half million people. So I'm very special. I love being rare, but not like that. Yeah, no, it's not the kind of rare you want to be. Actually, when you're sick, you want to be

as pedestrian as possible. 100% give me the most basic kind of illness. 100%. So when I was diagnosed, it was obviously a massive shock. And what followed that was a series of brain surgeries as the tumor kept growing back when they would remove it. And then ultimately radiation treatment. I had 36 rounds of radiation. 36? Yeah. So six days a week for six weeks, which by the end of that, I felt like they'd burned out my insides. It was pretty hectic. And then probably took about two years for the full extent of the brain injuries that I'd acquired to kind of make themselves known. And I still live with those now, live with a whole bunch of medications and treatments that continue, but I'm five years, no tumor growth. I love that. That makes me so

were happy. You literally burnt it out. It's gone. Yeah, it's gone. And Rosie, tell me your journey. Yeah. So mine seems a little different on the surface, like you said. So I had a pretty difficult childhood. Both my parents were alcoholics, drug addicts. They were mentally ill. My sisters and I were in and out of the foster system. There was a lot of neglect and abuse. And I guess the best way I would describe it is people often think that trauma is the event, but trauma is what I deal with now. So if you look at my childhood as the car crash, the trauma I live with as an adult is the brain injury caused by that car crash. So I started showing really significant symptoms when I was about 17, so about 20 years ago,

and I've been in treatment on and off when I could afford it ever since. I do take a lot of medications as well. I have symptoms that I'll be dealing with for the rest of my life. Yeah. And I think it was not long after Jamila's first surgery that she was looking for someone, anyone to talk to who she felt like might understand what it's like to feel sort of out of control of your, to not have control of your body and brain. And she came to me and we, like you said, didn't think we would have a lot in common, but realized very quickly we have a lot in common actually. Yeah, absolutely. Your book is really about surviving the things that aren't as obvious or that people never see, right? So like illness, trauma, shame, and the system that

genuinely makes it so much harder. What made you both go, all right, we want to write a book. We want to tell this story because it's one thing to, you know, find each other and have that level of support? Why did you want to take it to that next level and share it with us? Well, I had sought some support from Rosie, as she said, and I went to Rosie and asked her for some help with dealing with the mental health side of what I was going through. You know, when you're experiencing the stress and the trauma of being told you're really seriously ill and the fallout of surgery and treatment, it takes a real toll on your mental wellbeing. And I wanted advice, I suppose, because I knew Rosie had been there before and I think I almost wanted to say how do I stop this

how do I stop my brain being so scared and when I went to visit Rosie she was actually in psychiatric care at the time and we we went and had lunch across the road and when we were chatting one of the things that came out really quickly was that we actually have the same our conditions have the same mortality rate so we actually had the same chance of not being alive in in five years or 10 years. Wow. And yet, yeah, the world doesn't respond to Rosie with the same sort of urgency it does to me. You know, when, when my friends and my family learned that I had this brain tumour that, that had to be cut out of my head, I was incredibly lucky. I had this overwhelming outpouring of support. And I joked to Rosie at the time that I had 11 lasagnas in

my freezer. I was about to say, because you had so many lasagnas and Rosie didn't have any lasagnas. And I was like, yeah, oh, I've never, I've never got one. I don't know. I've never had a lasagna delivered. Exactly. I think because we're both storytellers, it was genuinely at that moment that we were like, there's a book in this. We should write about this. Yeah. That very conversation by the end, we decided to write a book. Yeah. Rosie, your story is deeply rooted in instability. How did that shape the way that you've come to think about money and then your place in the world? How do you even begin to unlearn a lot of this as an adult? It's very difficult. You know, I did not get to a, what I felt like was a secure place financially until

very, very recently. And I'm 38 years old. Congrats though. That's so exciting. You feel stable. Well, more stable than I've ever felt. I mean, I'm still getting there. You know what I mean but I yeah I grew up like you said with there was a lot of poverty the interesting thing about my parents though was I say they they were both like the black sheep of each of their respective families so my mum came from quite a wealthy family she went to private school on the north shore in Sydney which is a very snooty area my dad came from like a pretty well-off family too but they sort of then went their own rogue directions and found each other so I grew up with predominantly my mum because my dad died when I was quite young with not a lot I mean you know

there were years when we would need the Smith family to deliver like a Christmas hamper to us because we wouldn't have food at Christmas that kind of thing there was often homelessness in the sense of you know I think a lot of people think homelessness means living on the street but I mean like there were often times we didn't have anywhere to live we'd be couch hopping with our mum living different places. But then we also would, you know, say on like Easter or someone's birthday, go to my grandparents' house or my uncle's house, my mum's brother, and they were all very wealthy. So it was a very odd experience knowing that there was something else. I grew up in a lot of poverty and instability, but I also had this sort of link to... You had a window.

I had a window into something very different, like what possibility, I guess. And that was a really odd thing to deal with. I remember I tell this story. I think it's funny, but a lot of people find it very sad that my dad used to play us this VHS tape of his brother had kids who were about 10 years older than us and they had gone to Disneyland and they had filmed like all this stuff while they were at Disneyland. and my dad used to play this VHS tape of his brother's kids at Disneyland to us and it was like our favorite movie to watch the kids at Disneyland to us that was as as close as we were

gonna get and so it was there was a window there which seemed sad but I think to me it provided like a sense of I know there's something better than what I have here like I know there is stability somewhere like we may move all the time like I lived over in over 100 houses as a kid I went to like at least 20 schools we moved a lot we had instability but I saw that it was possible to feel secure and safe and live in one place through people in my extended family so there was a jealousy but there was also a hope and a motivation I guess yeah I was about to ask you know when you're young you don't actually comprehend a lot of the times why those things are happening like you don't understand what financial security means or you know whether

your parents are working really hard or not you can just see that one kid has something that you don't were you quite envious of that because I can imagine myself I feel like I would be quite envious seeing the kids at Disneyland yeah I mean it was more the Disneyland thing was more like I was envious of them having a lovely family experience I will say that with my mum she struggled being traditionally maternal she left when I was about three weeks old and I didn't start living permanently with her until I was almost four and then on and off after that for until I got taken away permanently became a ward of the state and her way of showing love was buying things. So we didn't often, I'll talk to people who grew up much wealthier than me. I'd

say I would talk to Jam about all the toys and cool stuff I had as a kid. And I probably had a lot more cool stuff than you did because that's how my mum knew how to show love. I remember being very, very little and she worked as a sex worker when I was little to sort of pay her way. and so on the visits we would have with her the exciting thing was that she would bring you something bring you like a Polly Pocket or you know a doll or you know a Barbie or something like she showed that through gifts and spending and I think that definitely gave me some warped ideas about what money is and how to manage it because she was never great with it there was never a sense in our existence with her that it was something that you were responsible with. If

you had it, you spent it. Yeah, absolutely. Jam, before your diagnosis, I feel like your life was picture perfect. Like you had this young family, you were financially stable, you had a banging career. Like you, I would look at you and be like, oh, I want to be Jam when I grow up. She's my grown up friend, my most accomplished grown up friend. A hundred percent, right? Like I know she's laughing, but I literally was like, when I grow up one day, I'm going to be just like Jamila Rishi. Oh, she's three months older than me and I say the same. Yeah, exactly. When I grow up, when I grow up. So from the outside, it seems like you had your stuff together, like your goals, babe. But what did that look like? Because you got your diagnosis and then everything shifts,

your priorities shift, your financial stability shifts. And I imagine you go from being, okay, I've built my life. And while, you know, you're not agreeing with us that, you know, it's all, it's picture perfect. Like you would have felt financially stable. You would have been like, I have a great partner. I'm so excited. I have, you know, this great kid. What happens when you get sent into a spin? You know what? Money was not on my mind. Like when you get given a diagnosis like that, money is the last thing you think about and it should be the last thing you think about. But the reality is that it's going to start playing a role pretty quickly. Right? So for us, we were renting at the time we were house hunting. We were looking to buy our first home. We'd been

looking at lots of houses and trying to find the right thing. I remember one of the conversations we had was, okay, well, that's just, we're not doing that anytime soon. Cause we can't deal with that. We've got, we've got too much other stress. And then I had private health insurance, which was fortunate. And it meant that that gave me the ability to choose my surgeon, which, you know, if I'd been in the public system, I might've ended up with the same surgeon anyway. it's possible he worked in the public and the private system, but I got to choose him. And I remember him saying to me, the other advantage was that he then got to choose his team because it was the private system. He could then say, I want that nurse and I want that assistant surgeon. I want

that person. And there's huge benefit to that. I remember saying, is there any other benefit? Like what else do I kind of get for my money? Yeah. I've been paying this extraordinary amount on health insurance. He said to me, well, there are rumors that the food is better. I don't think it I don't think it is. I don't think it is. Look, if it was better, it wasn't much better. And I had these sort of quite naive assumptions, I think. I thought Medicare took care of you when you were sick and so you didn't have to pay anything. And I thought if you had private health insurance, then anything extra, you won't pay much at all, which I look back on that and I had no idea, right? I had no idea. Well, you don't know and you just don't expect these things to

happen to you. Especially not when you're young, right? Not when you're 31. Like the idea that this happen to you when you were 31 and I'm sitting here at 33 I just go what like this to me is so foreign and I'm so grateful it's foreign but I also just go life is so fragile yeah and it can happen fast it happens really fast and the other bit I think you don't think about so much is that you can't work right did you have insurance I have to ask the ex-financial absolutely did not have insurance that I don't think I'd even crossed my mind at that age. And so, you know, I had eight weeks off work for recovery. And even then I wasn't really ready to go back to work after brain surgery, after eight weeks, I went back to work

a bit, but I certainly wasn't on my game and I would have struggled to work full time. And then for me, the tumor grew back within a few months after that. And then I needed 16 weeks off for that recovery. And once you get to that point and your partner's also taking heaps of time off to look after you. And then you've also got to think about childcare and all the other bits and pieces. Suddenly life starts to look, by that second surgery, we were a bit like, oh wow, okay, this is not. That house deposit doesn't look like a house deposit anymore. And we used the emergency, like we were people who had an emergency bank account, right? But we used it all up and then we had to go again so soon after. Yeah, because you probably just thought, and like

most people do, and I don't want to scare people when it comes to the finances, but the reality is when we create our emergency fund, we're thinking, okay, like what's like three months of our expenses? What does that look like? We're not talking about the car parking at hospital. We're not talking about the late night Uber Eats and all of the takeaway food that we need because we're staying at hospital. Like it goes so quickly. And like, this is my reminder to everybody out there that if you haven't thought about getting your personal insurances together, please do. Please do ASAP. Like that is one thing that I am wildly passionate about because sadly, as an ex financially advisor. I've seen it too many times and it's always the people that say, I never thought this

would happen to me. And also once you're on the other side, like me, you can't get it. Oh no, no one's insuring me now, right? Yeah. No, you're banned. I'm so sorry. My husband's very well insured, but you know, that's not an option for me anymore. No, no. Both of you describe these quite dramatic moments where your health completely collapsed, but it wasn't ever just physical. I think people just assume when you say my health collapsed, you just assume it's some dramatic flop to the floor. But what did it cost to keep functioning professionally and financially when your worlds are literally falling apart? I mean, I know it has at times cost me almost everything, really. I was never really great with money because I wasn't, you know,

wasn't raised or taught how to be. I remember when we used to work together. Oh my God. I know what you're i know what story you're about i remember explaining to rosie how banks work yeah because she didn't understand we all need that friend honestly you need that person it blew my mind when jamila explained to me that there is not a physical dollar for every dollar that there is yeah like i thought you could it was all there we can all you thought the bank had a shoebox with your money yes and then i had this like existential crisis where i was like so money is just a concept. What? Like I couldn't, it blew my mind. So that is literally where I was coming from. Not even understanding that. But you know how many people don't, like, I don't want you to

go, Oh, I didn't even get that. What do you mean? Who was going to teach you that Rosie? Oh my gosh. I had no idea. Yeah. Jam did. I mean, when I got my first book advance, which was like quite a decent chunk of money, I ended up getting into a huge amount of tax problems because I didn't realize I had to pay tax on that. I just was like, hooray, I have money. And, and I didn't buy anything extravagant. I just remember feeling like it's nice to not have to worry. I remember my fridge broke and I felt so amazing. It was like quite a profound day in my life when my fridge broke and I could just buy a fridge and I didn't have to think about it. It was, um, I wasn't buying anything crazy but I just yeah I didn't understand tax and I so I for like the first decade of

working as a professional writer had a lot of financial issues and it was probably 2022 where I did have a chat like quite a bit of money saved like I was doing okay work-wise but mentally I had a really bad relapse and I worked a little on and off but I mostly didn't work from I'd say for about 18 months over 2022 and 2023 I completely ran out of money like I got to like ground zero I had to move apartments once in that time and Jamila lent me money to pay my bond for my apartment because I just I literally had nothing saved and I got really unwell and I couldn't work it was a really scary time because when you are struggling with your health and then the money stuff is added to it like it really does make you feel like you know what if

I wasn't already getting swallowed up this is going to be the thing that ticks me over yeah exactly I'm being kicked while I'm down how do I do this like I the one thing I've always made sure I pay and sometimes over my rent I have paid for my private health insurance because in my early 20s I needed to be hospitalized for my PTSD and I didn't have insurance so I went to a public hospital. And unfortunately, inpatient care in public psychiatric care is pretty grim. And I, after that, started paying a very high premium health insurance because health insurance that covers inpatient private psychiatric care is like the expensive kind of private insurance. You need gold, that's not on bronze.

Yeah, I have paid for that ever since. That's been my one negotiable thing that I pay for because I never wanted to have to go to a public place again. And I have used it. Like there's been about four times that I've needed private psychiatric care since I started paying for that. But yeah, across 2022, 23, when I wasn't working and literally ran out of money, the one thing I sort of made sure I paid for was my private health insurance and everything else was day by day. And you know what? I totally get that. Yeah. Because that is in line with your values and what you're like, I can't go back there because I'm assuming that would have impacted you even more than going to inpatient care privately. Like, I just can't imagine. All right,

let's go to a really quick break because on the flip side, I want to talk more about the lasagnas that we mentioned. I also want to talk about inequality and why Australia's support system so often fail the people who need it the most. Plus, how do you actually prepare for the kind of life crisis no one sees coming? That's all after the break. All right, we are back. And I want to talk about something

that actually stuck with me out of the book and you guys have already mentioned it and that's lasagna. Like, I just feel like that is- It's a big thing. It's a big thing. Do you know what? I love a good lasagna.

And with so many in your freezer, you could have done a whole taste testing, Jen. Oh, she did. My husband had like tallies and rankings. Yeah, like rank them, like, oh, yep, Sue's won. That's pretty good. Yeah, he had scores for like cheesiness and, you know, the depth of tomato in the sauce.

Yeah, see, I think that's important. Yeah. But, Jam, at the end of the day, for those of you who haven't read the book, you had a plethora of lasagnas and, Rosie, you wrote about never having one lasagna in your fridge. what do you think that says about visible versus invisible illnesses you know I think it's no secret that there is a lot of prejudice in society when it comes to how we view mental health versus physical health I think I even have even people with mental health issues hold those prejudices

I mean there have been times that I've even said to myself like come on Rosie again like pull yourself out of this this this time just get it together which I don't think Jamila would ever have said to her brain tube like come on jam just just shrink that just just get rid you know get rid of that take care of it like I so even I have it I understand but we tend to not take this stuff as seriously and I think at the end of the day the bottom line is it's because a lot of people think it is a choice maybe not on the surface maybe they don't say that out loud but deep down I think a lot of people do think that mental health stuff is a choice because if it's to do with, you know, your emotions, your mental health, the way you think, all of that kind of thing.

If it's not something physical, then surely you should just be able to fix it. I think that's why. I mean, really, it's kind of, I've been asked this question a few times and I've been thinking, oh, should I be giving a more complex answer than that? But no, I just, I think that's it. I think that's the answer. I have seen that time and time again, like my background is in psychology. So like I fully comprehend this, but even I who have been through you know diagnosis I just look at it and I go the one thing that helped me really understand it was like it was chemical I was like okay like yours might be physical but mine was chemical and it's not an emotional thing you can just get over like I literally don't have enough of a chemical

and I can't xyz and so I feel like for me that helped and there's nothing that's going to help everybody but it just it frustrates me beyond belief that people don't take mental health seriously like it impacts everything it impacts your financial well-being your emotional wellbeing. It impacts your relationships. It impacts your ability to create the career you want to create, whether you have children or not. Like it is one of the most impactful things that you can go through, but people still don't put a lasagna in your freezer. But what's that about? I mean, all those things that you just said, I put off having kids my whole like adult life because I remembered what it was like growing up with my mother. I remember what it was like

growing up with someone who had kids before she was able to or should have mentally, financially in all those ways. My older sister, Rhiannon, then had her first kid when she was 17. And I saw how much that affected her life. So I always said, like, I won't, I remember saying as a little kid, like, I'm not going to have kids until I'm at least 35. Like for me, that was this age in my brain that I had for it. It's a grown up age. Yeah. Yeah. You're paying proper taxes. 35. Yeah, right. Like I thought I would be, but like probably wasn't working that much then. But like I, yeah, there was a lot of things that I put off because I knew I 95, 96%, 97% of my energy is going to just trying to keep this mental health stuff in check. I didn't have the time, the

resources, the energy to do a lot of the things I wanted to do. I mean, essentially you live of a life of surviving and not thriving yeah that's where you land yeah jam you've experienced both sides of this first in being an advocate but then also navigating the australian healthcare system as a patient when it comes to australia as a country why do you think we are still getting it so wrong yeah so australia has i think unquestionably one of the best healthcare systems in the world in terms of our commitment to universal healthcare the fact that if you show up at a hospital as you know prime minister is always telling us you show them your medicare card before anyone asks for your credit card and i don't want to take away from that that is

remarkable 100 but australia built a health care system and a hospital system to treat people with physical ill health and then when we kind of figured out mental illness was a thing we just sort of shoved it in it's in the back corner yeah we sort of tacked this thing on but we built it in the same model as the first one and we just tacked it on the side but we're dealing with a completely different set of challenges, a completely different set of treatments. And so it doesn't work that way. You can't treat schizophrenia the way you treat cancer, right? You're dealing with things in a complete- Why not? I've got a Medicare card. Who knows? It doesn't make sense. And so what we've done is we've sort of built two systems

at the same time and they're very much unequal. And don't get me wrong, there are inequalities that exist within the sort of physical healthcare system as well, but the way they work is very unequal. And so what we do is we tend to interact with people who have mental health challenges at two levels. The first is, and it's great that this exists, that you can get the Medicare rebate for a series of consultations with a psychologist once you've seen your GP and been approved for a mental health plan. That's great. If you're someone who needs more than that, and that's a lot of people. We see that so often in our community. We're like, great, it's 10 or it's 12 now. Now what? What happens if you need 50? What happens if you need more than 50?

And then at the other end of the spectrum, we're talking about people who reach the point of showing up at emergency at a public hospital because their mental ill health has become so serious and they are in crisis and we will intervene there usually for a very brief period you know 24 hours 48 hours often where it's like right have we got you to a point where we think you're not a danger to yourself okay thank you very much you can go home so there are sort of two points of intervention in the public system and that there's just so much space in between not to mention the fact that at that acute crisis end that's not sufficient. No and that's what's heartbreaking when it comes to I guess the financial side of that people in crisis can't

think about finances at the same time as trying to manage their crisis. How do we better support people going through these things financially? You know as part of Broken Brains we've both shared our stories but we've also talked to heaps of different experts and other people with lived expertise. And we spoke to Professor Kate Drummond, who is the head of neurosurgery at Royal Melbourne Hospital, bizarrely spoke to her many years ago, and she's now my neurosurgeon, which is just weird. But at the time, I'd never met her before. And she said so many things that stuck with me about how our health system operates. But I asked her if she had a magic wand, what's the one thing she'd change? She said she would pick up all the money that we spend on interventions in the final couple

of weeks of someone's life to prolong life at the very, very end. And she would pick that up and she'd give it to people in their late teens and twenties to intervene on mental ill health. Because she said, if your aim is to have people live longer, healthier lives, you would have so much more impact than you would prolonging the life of someone who's in their nineties by another month. Probably prolonging that life in a way that wouldn't be very comfortable or enjoyable. Now that is really confronting, right? Like I can think about that at a policy level and I feel okay with it, but then you say, okay, well, what about your grandma?

And I'd be like, well, hold on a second. Hold on. We're not talking about her. We're talking about policy, Jam. Yeah. And so that's hard to wrap our heads around, I think, but our purpose should not be in a health system for people to live forever. That's not going to work.

We have not yet pulled that off, right? So it should be to support people to have a wonderful life and where possible to extend that life. but there does become a point where it's like what are we doing and what are we spending and what are we putting someone through for one more week or two more weeks when we could put that money as a country into making sure that we get quality of life and quantity of life for people who are in their 20s and 30s that mean that they get to be that 80 or 90 year old. Yeah absolutely now I'm obviously so excited for my community to pick up this episode and learn more about

broken brains. But I'm also just so excited that the possibility that people who are currently ill and struggling financially see this episode and go, oh my goodness, like I didn't know something like this was happening. I didn't realize conversations were, you know, happening in this space. And I'm hoping that, you know, if you haven't met us before, welcome. But what would your one piece of advice to people who are currently going through illness and also struggling financially, what would your one piece of advice from both of you be? I'm happy to go first on that one. I, if you are like me and you're going through a physical health challenge, your mental health is as non-negotiable as Rosie's is. You know, when Rosie was through going through some

of the toughest times in her life, she still put the money into mental health care. It took me two years before one of my doctors said to me, are you getting any support? Now I was because my husband marched me off to a psychologist the morning after I was diagnosed. So I was getting great support, but the impact on your health and your wellbeing and your ability to go back to work and become someone who can earn money again, it will be the mental as much as the physical that pushes you. The second thing I would say is that go into the system knowing that even within the physical health system, we treat diseases. There is a hierarchy of how we support different conditions and diseases. And a lot of that actually has to do with the charitable sector as well.

because some, always had to talk about this one, some diseases are more attractive than others, right? We have raised more money in this country to support people who are going through breast cancer treatment and to ensure that treatment is not only quality and we have reduced mortality rates and we have improved how we support people psychologically through that process. And I do not begrudge assent of that. It is extraordinary what this country has done. And a lot of that is because of the McGrath Foundation and others. But it's really interesting, the McGrath Foundation just this year announced that they are now moving their targets to support people with other kinds of cancers too. Because there are the sexy cancers and the ones that we

get excited about and the ones that we feel good about and we want to talk about. We don't talk about prostate cancer. We don't talk about anal cancer. We don't talk about stuff that makes people go, oh God, I don't know about that one, right? No poo colored ribbons. There's no poo colored ribbons is what one of the marketers we speak to in our book says. And she was a woman who had colorectal cancer. She's like, there's no poo colored ribbon, right? That's not something we go and party about so going in with your eyes wide open around what support is available to you or not I'm someone who lives with rare diseases where it will hit is when you get to the medicine part because our medicines aren't on the PBS or if they exist and we can use someone else's

medicines we don't get it on the PBS because we're not using it for the set purpose right so you do have to prepare and you do have to save accordingly I think I'm sorry I'm giving so much advice instead of one. My other one is one that I am struggling to take myself, but I'm really trying to, which is that my partner said really early on spending money on your health is non-negotiable. And that meant not just the drugs that keep me alive, but the drugs that keep me well. And I have medicines that there have been times they're off the PBS that are costing us three, $4,000 a month, right? Like there's big money. And the number of times they don't technically keep me alive. They keep me well, and they're a big part of my quality of life,

but I don't need, I'm not going to die tomorrow without them. And the number of times I've gone, oh, we don't, maybe just not this month. Or like, we really need to be doing this. And I look at my son and I look at my husband and he has been adamant. Like this is not negotiable. If this makes you feel better, we buy it. Right. I felt so much guilt about that. And we are in a very fortunate position where we're able to make that choice rather than having no choice. And I know people with the same tumor as me who cut tablets in half and take them every second day and do all sorts of stuff because they can't afford to do it properly. But I am just learning to let go of some of that guilt around what my family doesn't have because of my disease and the impacts

of my disabilities. But I think I'm finally getting there and sort of forgiving myself and recognising that it's better for them to have me. It's better to have a wife and a mum that... And a well wife and a well mum. Are doing well and can be the best person you can be. Yeah. No, I think that that's so important. And it honestly makes me feel like when you said,

and I still carry so much guilt, I was like, oh, like that breaks me because it's just your son has who he needs and you were able to afford that. And like, yeah, you might not have as much stuff, but stuff doesn't go with you. Like that's not the stuff that matters. Yeah. Rosie, what would your advice be? You know, that question is trickier for me to answer than I think it is for Jamila. I write in the book about the fact that I've been seeing a child psychiatrist

who specializes in trauma since I was 17. I've been seeing the same one. So I'm probably his oldest patient by this point, but I started seeing him because at the time my uncle had taken custody of me and he was paying for it. When my uncle stopped paying for it, this particular psychiatrist bulk billed me without any gap. So it was essentially free for me to see him. And he has been very generous with me at times over the last 20 years, I pay when I can afford it. And other times, like, you know, back in 2022, when I was really struggling, he went back to bulk billing me. That is, that's a unicorn psychiatrist. Like I understand how lucky I am that he has been able to do that for me because I look at my sisters who've not had

access to that kind of trauma treatment who have just only when the 10 sessions a year became available which hasn't been throughout since we've been unwell they haven't had that and I can see how much further in my mental health I am than them because of that so I know how lucky I am And at the same time, I think how unfair that I had to be lucky to get treatment that I needed. So when people come to me for advice about what to do when you're unwell, particularly financially in the mental health sphere, I don't quite know what to say. I say, take advantage of what is offered to you, get the 10 sessions, get more if you

can and also try and have someone advocate for you because when you are mentally in that really dark place like you said it's hard to you know bills all that kind of stuff you can barely function like there are times you can't make a phone call let alone handle life admin there have been times since Jamila and I've been friends for over 10 years now and twice in that 10 years I've had a mental health relapse that's been pretty bad and she has stepped in to advocate for me just as someone who makes phone calls helps like organize like calling around hospitals to see if there's a place open or whatever like it really helps to have someone step in and advocate for you and look for programs because there are resources out there particularly for trauma

I know that I've done you know this essentially psychotherapy with my therapist since I've been with him but there are we now know in the last few years you know the very famous book by Bessel van der Kolk that the body keeps the score. We're understanding more and more, particularly over the last decade, that so much of it is to do with the body and not just the brain. That has been something that financially I've not really been able to explore until the last couple of years, treatment for that kind of thing. Someone at a book event for us the other night came up to me and said, I work in the trauma space, particularly childhood trauma, and you should be telling your readers and listeners and everything that EMDR is now available for free for people to access

through certain programs if they're dealing with childhood trauma. So I think it's just essentially like the snowball effect of, it's like when Jamila started interviewing people for the book and she would talk to someone who would recommend someone who would recommend someone. And before you knew it, you'd interviewed over 200 people. I think it's the same with this kind of thing. Like your psychiatrist may recommend talking to someone who may know of a program and they may know of something else. And it's just taking whatever support you can get because financially, it's really hard in this country to treat mental health. You're not going to just walk into a doctor's office or a hospital and get what you need easily. So really take the help

from anyone who is offering it to you and listen to people's advice. And that's sort of the best advice I can offer. It's hard on this side of things. I feel like the one thing that hasn't been mentioned is just giving yourself a lot more kindness as well I think that a lot of the time people in similar situations they'll say I'm so bad at this or I suck at that or like you really just compare yourself to other people in similar situations you might go oh but she's handling it so much better but you don't see these things you don't get to see under the covers of people's financial circumstances and like you know Jam was talking about her beautiful husband and the support that she had and knowing that he was probably working throughout that and you had

your house deposit and some emergency savings we didn't know that until she shared that we could have assumed that she'd come from a really wealthy family or something along those lines or we could have on the flip side been like not aware of the astronomical amount of debt she needed to go into so everybody's journey is so different and I think that because of this beautiful community we have inches on the money people are so open with their journeys especially when they're unwell and when they're going through a financial crisis that you just don't know what you don't know. And I think you are so harsh on yourselves.

You're like, oh, well, I can't afford that or I shouldn't do this or I shouldn't do, like, I think you just need to wipe all of the expectation off and just go, I'm doing the best that I can. I'm really glad you just said that because yeah, that's really important to point out. I know that I have been filled

with an enormous amount of shame getting to this age where I'm nearly 40, like I turned 39 this year, I'm an 86 baby. And when I was little, like I said, I had these wealthier family members that I would look to. And I would always say like, I'm going to be like them. Like, I'm not going to be like my crazy parents. Like when I grew up, I remember I used to say, I'm going to be a doctor, like my uncle, because my mom told me once he made $5,000 a week. And I was like that I'm going to be a doctor because of that. Like I would, I really thought I would be in a very different position by now. And I often feel an enormous amount of shame

and disappointment that, you know, I thought I would be married by now. I thought I would have kids. I thought I'd own a house. I thought I would have built the life for myself that I always wanted by this stage, by much earlier than this. And there are times that really, really makes me feel just to put it bluntly, pretty shit about myself. It really does. And what has helped a lot is like you said, learning to have some compassion for myself over it, learning to try and be a bit gentler with myself and more forgiving and say like, you know, Rosie, you were barely keeping your head above water. Like all I was able to focus on was just getting through the day, saving for a house, marriage, kids, building a stable life. It really sucks that it's not

really starting for me until the last couple of years, but it's not my fault. Like I did the best I could. And so I have to be gentler with myself about it. It is hard though. It's really hard. You're filled with a lot of shame about this kind of thing, but yeah, I'm really glad you pointed that out because having self-compassion is hugely important. It's helped me a lot, even though it's not easy to do. No, I'm glad that you resonate with that because I just, I feel like I want to scoop our community up sometimes and be like, you are doing so well. Like look at the cards that were dealt to you and what could have happened, the place you could have been in and look how hard you fought to be here. You're on a podcast advocating for those people who can't speak up

for themselves. There are people who are going to listen to this and be like, holy moly, like that's exactly what I needed to hear at the moment. And you're being that person that baby you needed and I just go that's the ultimate outcome right like I know that your stereotypical family and your house and your savings account didn't tick the box but like you've become the woman that baby you needed and that is incredible like that is the coolest thing in the entire world I wrote the book I guess that's really nice so unfortunately we don't have a lot of time left guys you have been so generous and so kind for sharing this story with me with my community I'm just I'm beyond grateful for this this conversation has been really thoughtful really generous really

open and I just I hope that we can start seeing mental and physical illness on the same page I hope that there's more conversation in the next four years about getting us on the same page and I just think that this has been a long time coming and it won't be the last time we talk about this So, guys, if you have loved talking to Jam and to Rosie, they have a beautiful book called Broken Brains. It is real. It is raw. It is honest.

It is everything you need to have a conversation around grief, around resilience and humour. Like, it is funny. We keep trying to tell people it's not all grim. It's not all heavy. I feel like I've made it sound heavy at the start. But, like, you're really funny too. Like, I'll give you that.

And it's all at once. And it is beautiful. And if you're listening and you haven't grabbed a copy yet, I definitely recommend it, but I'm going to pop all of the information for that in the show notes so that you can pick up a copy and pour over in the same way that I absolutely did. And I guess one of the things I took from that was like, I need to make a whole lot more lasagnas. Like I've got a lot of lasagnas to make.

Yeah. Jam has enough. Yes. Yeah, exactly. We're making rosy lasagnas. And to my beautiful She's On The Money community, I know that sometimes life can throw things at you that no budget or plan could ever prepare for and if you are in that space right now just know that it's okay to focus on just getting through not getting ahead I want you to take

your health your safety and your stability first it always is going to come first because the rest can wait and you are not behind for doing what you need to do to survive if you have loved this episode please share it with somebody who needs to hear it especially if they're going through something tough right now and make sure that you're following She's On The Money so that you never miss another chat like this one. Guys, thanks for sharing today with us. Thank you. The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy

financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN 321 649 27708 AFSL 451 289.