She's On The Money - Equity vs Equality in your relationship, which makes the most sense?

Episode Date: February 1, 2022

This week we're talking about the highly debated topic of equity in your personal relationships and how just maybe, you shouldn't be splitting the rent 50/50 with your partner! Join G + V for this very spicy chat, and a lil bit of roll play to boot.The advice shared on She’s on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She’s on The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine is an Authorised Representative of Infocus Securities Australia Proprietary Limited ABN 47 097 797 049 AFSL - AFSL 236523.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

She's on the money. She's on the money. Hello and welcome to She's on the money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. Are you currently in a relationship where you earn significantly more than your partner? Or maybe they earn significantly more than you? Managing money is really difficult in relationships at the best of times. So how do we do it when our income differs dramatically from our partners? My name is Georgia King, and as always, I am joined by financial advisor,

Victoria Devine. V, how's the COVID? Just a little check-in. Oh, thank you. Still in ISO. I sound much better than I did for a very significant part of last week. I sounded like a small helpless baby seal. Well, literally we sat down to record a couple of eps and you had no voice. It was one of those things where that sounds silly. Cause like, obviously I should have canceled, but we'd organized a very early morning record on what some people call Australia day. Cause we just worked that day because hot girls do not celebrate Australia Day. Anyway, we had an 8am recording. My partner had gone to golf at 6am. So I hadn't spoken to anybody. Get on the blower with you. And you're like, what is wrong with you? And I was

like, I don't know. And you were like, Victoria, you sound like you've got COVID. And I was like, better get a test. So did a rat. And you've never seen a red COVID line. Honestly, straight out the gates she had covid and she had it bad yeah so i'm still in iso until wednesday when this episode drops i will have my freedom back pending a negative rat test george king amazing doll um well it's good to see you well healthy and thriving and i have a voice she has a voice also while we're on that i'm you know a little hungover today so if my voice sounds a little different a little huskier a little more sultry that is why georgia king hungover yeah a bit naughty from me. Anyway, let's move on to the crux of today's show. V, you went viral a few

weeks ago when discussing the importance of financial equity over equality in a relationship. Okay. But I didn't know that was going to go viral. I didn't know that that topic was as spicy as it ended up being. It's such a spicy topic. Look, it was spicy. I totally agree. I just didn't think I'd get the hundreds of comments I got on both TikTok and Instagram, that video you're talking about, Georgia's had like 200,000 views on Instagram and more than a million on TikTok now. Like what? Insane. And the Daily Mail picked it up. So. Oh yeah. She's famous. And they're just like this spicy financial advisor is full of herself and keeps telling us what to do with her money. And the thing that I was so

surprised about, and I guess this is what happens when things go beyond our community, because Georgia if you'd just seen it you would have been like good point V that's an interesting you know point of view but you would have known how I feel about money and equity and equality and that I'm a wildly passionate feminist but it got onto the wrong side of TikTok and I'm still having people message me being like that's entitled yeah well if you earned more than your partner you wouldn't let him do that or oh I bet she doesn't think that way when it comes to her own bank accounts. Like, oh my God, I definitely fell onto the wrong side of TikTok that day. But that's why we need to talk about this because it was such a spicy topic, especially, and I mean, if you've got

some free time, guys, go read the comments because some of them are really interesting. Some of them are like, wow, this is how I do it or sharing really interesting perspectives. Other people are like, wow, I hadn't thought of this. Some people are like, oh, I've been doing this for years. Can't believe you're only thinking of it now. Other people are like, this is so entitled. I would never. I'm an independent woman. How dare you suggest I pay less? And I was like, ooh, what have I done, Jeaking? But that's what this episode is about. That's what I wanted to talk about. And yes, that happened. I think it was two weeks ago, but we took a fair while making sure that this episode was juicy. George, we have some role plays coming up. We do. Popping on our

acting hats. Very excited. You were captain of the drama club, right? Yeah. Well, I mean, if there was a captain, I would have been the captain. I bloody loved drama. I actually have the drama captain badge from when I was in grade 10. So, if you would like me to come and drop that off, I can give it to you. Amazing. I'll make sure it's sterilized so that I don't get COVID again. Wow. I am a nice lady. So, Bea, for anyone who has no idea what we're talking about here, what actually is financial equity and how does it compare to financial equality well I think this is probably a very good place to start because not many people actually know the difference and they would if you don't know the difference just assume that you want equality right like we all want to

be equal but I would say in a relationship from my perspective and you need to take this episode with a grain of salt as well like before we get into this George I'm not saying that this is the way to run your relationship. I'm not saying there is only one way of managing money in a relationship because there's not. And this is just an interesting take to talk about equity, because from my perspective, my partner and I have always operated under the assumption of equity. And that's kind of like what we bring to the table as opposed to making sure everything is 50-50 split. So, equality is actually defined as being the state of being equal, especially in status, rights and opportunity and we want that we love that like we love that we want equality when it

comes to men and women i want the same damn opportunities you guys have i want the same rights i want the same status i don't want to miss out on anything and i think that that's also a very common misconception when it comes to feminism that feminists want women to be treated better than men and that's not it feminists just want women to have exactly the same status rights and opportunities that a man has. Like I want to, as a female, have the same educational opportunities. I want to have the same ability to generate an income. It is why I'm so passionate about the gender pay gap and the wage gap and all of that stuff. But on the other hand, equity is defined as the quality of being fair and impartial. So when it comes to relationships,

both of these things kind of come into play. And the question arises of, George, if you and I were in a relationship and you earned $400,000 and I earned $40,000. Is it equitable for you and I to pay 50-50 rent? Well, I wouldn't have thought so. Yeah. No. And that's obviously not the common denominator for a lot of couples, right? Like it's not common for you to meet a couple that one's on 400 grand and the other is on 40. I mean, it does absolutely happen, but more often that pay discrepancy could be, George, you're on 75K and my partner's on 150. But the difference there is actually quite significant when it comes to you being able to save and invest and afford things you like to do and want to do, especially if you're trying to live a lifestyle that keeps

up with the partner who earns $150,000. So, when it comes to finances in a relationship, I often think that equitable finances are preferable over equality and it doesn't actually impact your ability to be an independent person or, you know, having equal rights. It's not about that. It's actually about making sure that you have the same opportunities and things in the relationship are absolutely fair. So, I guess that is a little bit of a preface because I don't want people to think that this is the only way to do it because you might split it differently. Like, I know there are people in our community, George, where one party doesn't pay rent because they do all the housework, all the cooking, all the everything else, and the partner, the other

partner pays rent. Okay. No problemo. I know couples that split it straight down the middle and say, you know what? You're 50% of rent. I'm 50% of rent. We split everything to the cent. That's what works for us. We don't want to change it. No problems. But what we're doing with this episode, Georgia, is introducing the concept because so many people hadn't heard of it. And I also think it's really important to discuss this because it's often the lower income earner who wants to bring it up in conversation and doesn't feel empowered to do so. 100%. And that leads kind of flawlessly to my next question, which is about the question around independence, I guess. So, a lot of us, as you were saying before, have been brought up to want

to be, you know, strong, independent women. And this idea for a lot of people I noticed in our Facebook group, they were really worried that it meant that they would be stripped of their independence and that if they're not contributing 50%, then, you know, they've let themselves down and their partner down. But that is not the case. Absolutely not the case. And I think it's such a common misconception. Do you know what? It feels that way. Because if we take a little bit of a step back, let's play pretend for a second, because there's going to be a lot of that in this episode, but George, you and I are housemates. You've got your own life. I've got my own life. We have a very cute apartment. Where do we want to live? We want to live in Fitzroy. That's fancy.

Got this apartment in Fitzroy and I pay 50% rent. You pay 50% rent and we split bills equally. You're still on your $400,000 a year, but I'm on $40,000 a year. From my perspective, my financial situation is not your business. It is not my business what you own because we are not codependent. We are not in a relationship together. Our finances aren't intertwined in a way where my success and my goals and my hopes and dreams for the future are tied up in your ability to generate income and vice versa. So we split rent equally because I'm just paying for that room in that house because I saw the job ad on renters.com or whatever it is and I saw 250 bucks a week rent and I was like yep no problems I'm gonna sign up to that because that was the

commitment I made to being a housemate from my perspective that entire dynamic changes when you get into a relationship and there are a lot more things going on so being an independent person is making sure we're not being taken advantage of in any situation it's about making sure that you are advocating for yourself. And if somebody in a relationship is earning significantly more and therefore is able to save or invest when that opportunity is not extended to you, you have to advocate for yourself. The other thing to mention, and this is not going to be the same for everyone because obviously this changes in same-sex relationships, but in many heteronormative relationships, it's often the male who will be earning more.

Because as we know, Georgia King, the gender pay gap is a very real thing. And we know male dominated industries tend to be remunerated more generously than female dominated industries. So I think it's important to put that on the table that, do you know what? Same sex relationships could be even worse off when it comes to stuff like this as well, because you don't know where you stand, or maybe you don't know how to have that conversation, or you're both in female dominated industries and you're not being paid properly to begin with don't even start me on that but when it comes to being an independent person you don't need to penalize yourself when social structures already do that for us yeah cheers babes but you don't need to do it to

yourself and basically what we need to do is reframe our thinking around this and understand that if you're the one who is suggesting to contribute less because you earn less that does not make you any less independent and there's no such thing as less valuable work full stop, end of story, the podcast can probably end there. Yeah, 100%. One of the themes that came up in the responses to your video, Vee, was the idea of people saying, I worked hard for my money, I studied. Don't start me. Oh, this episode's going to trigger me, but carry on, George. So basically they're saying, I worked harder, so I deserve more. Whereas my partner didn't go to uni is working a lower income job. So, why is that on me to like foot the bill basically?

One, get in the bin with that opinion because I don't like it in saying that. I just want to be really clear here that people who earn less don't work less or not as hard as a high income earner. Like at the end of the day, yes, if you are going above and beyond and there is a different set of rules than what we are assuming when having this conversation, Georgia, and for the purposes of this conversation, we are assuming that two individuals have different incomes, but are both working 40 hour weeks. Because I had a couple of DMs from people who were like, oh, should this still apply? Because I earn a lot more than my partner, but I also work my 40 hour nine to five Monday to Friday job. But then I also like do extra hours on the weekends and like give up my

free time so that I can invest more or save more, or I've got these financial goals. Does that mean and I should be contributing more. Like, no, every situation is literally different. And if your partner is choosing to not do that, then you don't have to take that part into consideration. But when it comes to being equitable in a relationship, it's just making sure your partner's okay as well. Just because you did not go to university or you don't have a high-flying corporate job that pays an excessive amount of money doesn't mean that you don't work hard. And I find it really, I don't know, I'm probably going to get really opinionated on this when that should not be the purpose of this. So I do apologize, but it really frustrates me when

people are like, okay, but I chose to study and my partner didn't. It's like, okay, let's sit down for a hot second, Georgia. Where's your privilege? How come you studied? How come your partner didn't? The answer might be your partner just didn't want to. And that's cool. That's conversation that you guys can have. But more often than not, if you see an individual who's had a full tertiary education and has gotten a degree, there is going to be a significant amount of privilege playing to that, whether that is they worked their asses off during university years so that they could have a full-time income, pay rent, you know, pay rent, pay their bills and go to university and they've just hustled their butts off. But Georgia, that is a type of privilege, whether you're working

hard or not because that's something that not a lot of people have the ability to do or it might be what we see as stereotypical privilege where they went to private school their parents were really wealthy and their parents paid for them to have a free ride at university I totally get that but that doesn't mean that your partner should be put down because you have a degree and your partner doesn't like I don't know it just feels a little bit icky to me and I mean we've spoken about it on the show before. So privilege and talking about our privilege shouldn't come as a surprise in this conversation, but there's so much more nuance to this conversation than just saying I work harder and that's why I don't think I should have to pay more because I have a degree

and my partner didn't bother going to university. Like that to me is real icky. In saying that, as Jessica Ritchie pointed out on a Friday show recently, if your partner has chosen a life where work is not a priority and you absolutely have. Example, they only want to work part-time so that they can have more leisure time, so on and so forth. Or if they blow all their money on the weekends or if they like going out partying and you want to save and they just don't have the same priorities as you, then it shouldn't be expected that you pick up the slack to fund their lifestyle choices. Like that is not what we are saying here. So if you want to and it works for your relationship, then by all means, go for it. But please make sure the other person isn't

taking you for a bit of a ride if you're going to choose this. Because I think that one of the really overwhelming comments was like, oh, I don't want to pay more because then the other person is going to take advantage of that and not have to work as hard because they know that I'll always pay more. This is an ongoing conversation. Definitely. Sometimes one person earns more, or sometimes the other person earns less. Like, George, this isn't a set and forget conversational system. This is a, I want our relation to be equitable. Let's always make sure that's a priority in this relationship conversation. Yeah. Okay. I want to move now, to talking about domestic labor and traditional household norms and how they play into all of

this. So, for example, they say you have kids and you're out of the workforce, but you carry the weight of the domestic load. How do we value a contribution that's harder to measure? Can we absolutely ditch the notion that a contribution is financial? Can we put that in the bin? That's why we talk about equity. I didn't say financial equity, did I? I said equity in a relationship. What you bring to the table has a lot of value. And you know what? Domestic work, if we added it up, really expensive. There was a research paper done. I can't remember when it was. it would have been five or six years ago because I've been ranting about it for that long, where if you took a stay-at-home mum out of, quote, the workforce, so said,

sorry, stay-at-home mum, you can't do this anymore, what that would have been worth to the family, it's about $160,000 a year. Wow. So, if we really want to put finances to it, stay-at-home mums, they're worth a lot. So, sorry, V, does that mean if you took the mother out or the primary carer and replaced them with like a nanny or put them into childcare? Like, what is that value that you're talking about? Yeah. So, that would be the replacement. I actually talk about this a lot with clients when I'm talking about insurance, because as a stay-at-home mom, you can't actually get income protection. And as you guys know, income protection is my favorite insurance personally. And it's the

one thing that I wouldn't want to get rid of. But it's so interesting when you have, you know, couples come in and say hey V like want to set up my insurances my partner here and so much money don't worry about me like hold up hold up there George King you're worth actually a lot because what would your partner do if you know sadly you passed away yesterday how were you going to look after your family because is your partner going to pick up that slack and you're right you could look at having a nanny but it's all of the other domestic labor and I guess traditional household norms that come into this it's not the 40 hours a week you might have a nanny salaried it's the tidying up the house it's the cooking it's the being the taxi it's the management of calendars

it's going to and from sporting events it's everything that a mum does that they don't see value in themselves because I think that parents in general especially female parents are very quick to go oh but I don't earn money so I'm not contributing and that's where as I said before I really want to break down this notion that equity in a relationship has to be financial because as we already know Georgia women on average do five hours more domestic labor than men each and every single week not surprising nobody's shocked and the crowd full silent yeah it's one of those things where I think that we need to stop trying to measure like stop telling me what's it worth what's it worth? Like, sit down with your partner, renegotiate it. Hell, you could renegotiate it

even if you're on the same income. I might go, George, we both earn 50 grand a year. You hate cooking. How about we renegotiate? You pay more rent. I'll do all the cooking. And you go, deal of the century. Yes, please. I'll pay 70% rent. You pay 30 because you're picking up some of this equity in this relationship that's now your responsibility. And I'm very happy to pay more than you to get that benefit in this relationship like we're not saying that you actually even have to have a different type of salary than your partner to have this negotiation about equity in a relationship because equity I think needs to be spoken about more and I don't know what Steve's mum did to him as a child Georgia but he is one of the most respectful people you will ever

meet like you know you know Steve I think he shocks everybody like when you used to come over you'd be like is he vacuuming is he cleaning he's cooking us dinner house yeah like he is an absolute legend because he was brought up like it's our house we share chores like it's not a victoria job or a steve job if there is a job around our house that just needs doing he just does it which still shocks me literally years later that if i put on a load of washing and he hears it beep he'll go and get it out and hang it up because it was just a job that needed doing What a doll. But that blows so many people's minds. And to me, it still blows my mind because that's not how I saw equity in a relationship. I don't think there has to be certain roles when

it comes to this, but equity in a relationship, we need to talk about it, but let's make sure that you realize it doesn't have to be just financial. A hundred percent. How do we achieve equity when it comes to super V? Because as we've spoken about on the pod before, there is that enormous gap between the super of the stay-at-home parent and the person who gets to push through and continue to work, which can be massively detrimental down the line, especially if they split and you can't access their super. And we do know one in two marriages ends in divorce. Is that the stat? I really needed to know that while planning my wedding. Thank you, Georgia King. Yeah, thank you. You'll go well. Thanks. But how do we sort super?

That's my question. This is such a controversial conversation, but I do believe that if you are going to talk about superannuation as a couple, we need to talk about what happens if one party of that relationship is going to take some serious time off. Like it doesn't necessarily have to be a parent. Like you could be taking a whole heap of time off to, you know, support your partner who is, you know, being a doctor. So we've got a She's On The Money community member She is an absolute delight. She's been on the pod before. She's actually just moved to America because her partner is becoming a resident, which is like a fancy doctor in the US and has to do a lot of work. Because she's registered here to work in Australia, she actually can't do her work

internationally. So, she's taking some serious time off to support her partner's venture, which I admire. I honestly think it's really important. But she approached me before she left and said, how do I talk to my partner about my super? Cause I don't want to fall behind. And that is such an important conversation. And this conversation actually stretches into the stay at home parent conversation because as we said before, equity in relationships is not always financial, but there's always a financial impact. So we need to talk about what is going to happen to your super George when you take time off? Cause you and I've just had a baby. Are you just going to take the hit and hope that we don't get a divorce down the track and you know just be

behind in general because don't worry when we retire at all be pulled together anyway because if that's the case why do men have such an issue putting extra contributions into their partner's superannuation so we absolutely should be making the time to have the conversation if you're going to take time off to contribute equity to a relationship in a way that is not financial to make sure that you're not financially disadvantaged for that contribution. Because it doesn't mean you're not contributing to the relationship. It just means that that contribution at that point in time is not necessarily financial and that's okay. But I also have a few stats, courtesy of our friends. Thank you. At the Australian Human Rights Commission. And stat one,

women have significantly less money saved for retirement. Half of all women aged 45 to 59 have $8,000 or less in their superannuation funds compared to $31,000 for men. That's shockingly low. That's gross. For both genders, isn't it? Yes, but it's also really important for you to remember that superannuation was only mandated in 1992, meaning if you worked before then, your employer did not have to pay you superannuation. So as a millennial, we are very lucky in that every job we have had as millennials has meant that superannuation was mandatory. Like employers, it's not a choice. Whereas pre-1992, it was a thing that some companies did and some didn't. So it's really important to understand that because when we look at stats like this, yes, women are worse off.

yes like $31,000 at that age you would go wow like that's not enough but there's good reason for that and it's all about it not being mandated when they started working professionally in saying that that's like a third like women literally have yeah like oh thanks sorry sorry sorry um yeah I'm a financial advisor but you can see that that discrepancy runs deep and it still runs deep today regardless of whether it was mandated or not women tend to have far less super than men second stat i want to share with you george is currently the average superannuation payout for women is a third of the payout for men which is 37 000 compared to 110 000 for men yeah so still not happy with that that's why i started she's on the money george yeah exactly you wait

when i'm retiring i'm gonna be like it was 150 000 for women and four dollars for men no no that is in direct conflict to me wanting equality and then georgia we have stat three in australia women working full-time today earn 16 less than men jeez louise rude we don't like that those stats don't cater to us being able to financially contribute nearly as much equity as a man can. Also, the interesting thing about statistics in these human rights commissions, as much as I love sharing statistics, we don't have a lot of statistics on our LGBTQIA plus communities. We don't have those same statistics for our community who is experiencing disability or any kind of disadvantage. It doesn't take those things into consideration. And I can bet my bottom

dollar that the discrepancy between women and those communities is really big and the discrepancy between those communities and men is even bigger. So, don't come at me because I don't have the stats because if I had the stats, I'd be throwing them at you right now. Yeah, the stats don't exist yet. But yeah, I'm hoping that is changing, surely. Look, it's changing slowly. We're starting to see but it's very hard to collect I guess such significant amounts of data on these communities because often they don't want to contribute either I mean that's not to say that there aren't communities that like advocate for us we want to share our data we want to be heard those do exist but as you can imagine Georgia if you're disabled and need to fill in a survey but

you can't read the survey or jump on a computer or have the ability to do that like you're probably just going to opt out because it's too hard. So, anyway, moving on. So, in terms of what we can actually be doing then, Vy, can't you like contribute to your partner's account or something like that's a solution maybe? Yeah, you can salary sacrifice into someone else's superannuation. Amazing. Which I think is a really great option, especially if you're worried about, you know, being left behind when it comes to superannuation and retirement. And I think that, how do you say this without being rude, George. I think that any partner would welcome that conversation because why wouldn't you want your wife or your partner or your spouse to be in a good financial situation

that is equal to yours? Why would you want anything less than equality in a relationship? But the first thing here is to really chat to your partner about contribution splitting. I would be trying to do that really early on in the relationship as well. It can be a hard conversation because so many families have to budget to have kids, right? Like kids are expensive, but let's make sure those super contributions are a part of the conversation before you become pregnant, because it's hard to bring it up after if you're on a strict budget and then you're like, well, I want super contributions. And your partner's like, oh my God, like that's so much money in addition to the already expensive lifestyle that we're about to live where you're

not financially contributing for 12 months and then I'm under more pressure. Like, let's make sure this isn't a surprise and makes your spouse or partner feel more pressure, more that this is just what it is. But your partner can actually contribute up to 85% of their superannuation contributions and they can do it just after the end of the financial year in a lump sum as well. So, you don't even need to set up something. You could dump some cash in there once you realize how much extra cash you've got left over after having the baby as well. So, don't feel like it has to absolutely happen in the moment and be replaced when your normal super contributions happen. You can do it later, but let's make sure it doesn't fall off the bandwagon when it comes

to the conversation around baby making. And gee, the added benefit of doing this is that the person making the contributions can actually claim an 18% tax offset up to three grand, but there's obviously certain eligibility criteria involved in that, so you will have to check it, but that's more than the standard 15%. So, there's a little bit of an incentive there to get that done. Interesting. I imagine as well, V, it would be a tricky thing to bring up with your partner because obviously if you're starting a family together, you would have the intentions of staying together forever. So, I can imagine partners might say, well, why would I contribute it to your super. Your super is my super. We're going to retire together anyway. But as I said

before, like the stats show that a lot of us don't end up together, which means that usually the woman is significantly disadvantaged at retirement because they don't have that super. So, how do you kind of navigate that conversation? I think that conversation is exactly how you have it. You kind of go, okay, like totally get that that's the plan. But, you know, stats tell us that, you know, some marriages break up. Honey, I love you dearly, but I also want to feel like I'm not losing my independence by making a decision to contribute a different type of equity to this relationship. So, unless you want to renegotiate maybe the parenting on this, maybe you work part time and I work part time. So, my superannuation is not taking a hit and they might go, um, no.

And then you could go, okay, no problems. But like, that's how we're going to split it because I do want this relationship to be equitable and I'm just trying to find a solution so that I don't end up being financially hit and behind because I really do value my independence. And I think that any reasonable person would go, oh, actually, that's a good point. That's a really good point because now let's be a little bit stereotypical here. And I'm not being stereotypical because I'm like, oh my gosh, this is the way it should be. But like I am 30, which is now kind of terrifying because Georgia all my friends they're falling pregnant on purpose like I love it when you say that I know like they're doing it on purpose like that wasn't an accident oh okay

like it still shocks me I'm like oh my god she was married for two years and then she got pregnant do you reckon she meant that Steve but from my experience understanding my friends mindsets a lot of them are like no I really want to be the stay-at-home parent and I really want to do that Like I've looked forward to it my entire life and I totally get that. It's not saying that the partner should, you know, take that away from you if that's what you want to do, but we really have to make sure that our partners do know that that's a type of equity that you're contributing to this relationship because I don't know, they need to see your value too, GK. Oh, Hundy P. Also like you could encourage them to listen to this episode as well. Yeah. If you just. They won't like me.

they won't like me but that's okay i mean this is probably not the episode that i would have picked as the introduction to she's on the money and georgia king and what victoria divine's like because i'm pretty fired up i'm pretty annoyed but maybe we should take a little breather georgia absolutely let's head to a break but on the other side we will be discussing if this rule of equity still applies when we're saving for a home deposit spicy as teased earlier in the show we're going to be doing our little role play. Oh, you are so lucky. Yeah. So that's, stick around for that. No costumes though. No costumes. Straight back into it, V, let's talk about property. What are your thoughts on saving for a house deposit and then potentially paying off the

mortgage if you do both earn different amounts? Oh, Georgia King, I love this question because there are so many moving parts to this conversation. A lot of young couples nowadays have their number one goal as buying house. And then you might sit them down and go, all right, V, you want to buy a house with George? I go, yep. Are you going to be together forever? You might go, I don't know, but I know I really want to own a house and it's a really good investment. And I don't think I'll regret that investment. We're going to make sure we have a really good binding financial agreement. And like, we're on the same page that if we do break up, like we'll sell or we'll do this. Because I think that in, you know, it's 2022 now and the housing market

is arguably incredibly hard to get into. So, often a way to get into the market that is a little bit less arduous, a little bit easier is to have somebody else to do that with. So, I feel like I'm seeing a lot of couples purchase properties when they aren't entirely sure what their future holds. I wouldn't recommend that, but I think it is a really good conversation to have because if we're talking about equity in a relationship and you're like, well, I want to own 50% of this property, then that's going to change the way this conversation happens. Whereas George, we'll go back to the example that I was making before where you're earning $400,000 and I'm earning $40,000. And you and I sit down and we go, George, what do we want for our lives? And you go, oh,

love to have a couple of kids, love to get married. But before I do all that, would love to own a property. And I gulp real hard because I'm like, oh, I earned 40 grand, like saving for a property that George wants is going to take me forever. And then I'm not going to feel like I'm contributing and like, we need to have this conversation. So G, I don't think it's a conversation where we both definitely have to contribute 50% because you might go, oh, but V, I'm going to marry you and we're going to be together forever. So I don't particularly care who does it. You save what you can. I'll save what I can. We'll scrape together a deposit. And then, you know, in our binding financial agreement, if shit hits the van, I'll own 70% of it and you just own 30% and we'll call

it a day that way. And I go, okay, no problems. That seems fair and equitable. Another outcome of that situation might be, all right, well, I feel like you're going to get half of my stuff anyway. So it doesn't matter here nor there, because that's how the legal system is actually going to start that conversation. If you are going through, you know, separation or divorce proceedings, they're going to start at an equal 50% and then work it out from there. You might end up with more or I might end up with more, but it's very different. But I think that the conversation about equity when it comes to saving for a house deposit is exactly the same as when I'm talking about rent and when I'm talking about splitting bills. You need to have this

conversation. It is a very personal conversation. You might, George, agree to be contributing more. Is that anybody else's business? No, absolutely not. But you and I might go, all right, well, George, you've got so much more money than me. I think that we should have a binding financial agreement so that when we do buy this house, shit hits the fan, I'm just going to be able to take my initial amount for the deposit back out. But then when it comes to mortgage repayments, we're not going to talk about this 70-30, you own, I own mortgage repayments because I'm contributing equity in a different way to this relationship. Any mortgage repayments will be seen as 50-50 because that's how it's going to work. But if you really want to protect that deposit,

I totally get that because that is a large lump sum of money. But at the end of the day, you should be contributing 50-50 to a relationship anyway, right? Like, George, I shouldn't be doing all the housework unless there's been a conversation about that where I do more than you because you do something else or I hate unloading the dishwasher so I clean the bathrooms and you do the dishwasher always. Like, I feel like this is such a personal conversation, but I have had friends in that situation and the outcome that they come to is making sure you have a binding financial agreement for the deposit if that ever gets split and any mortgage repayments after that are seen as 50-50 even if you're paying 70 and I'm paying 30 because I don't want

my means to absolutely be blown out to achieve a financial goal that might have not been mine in the first place. Right. And if you didn't have a binding financial agreement and you did break up down the line and things got messy, would they just split it in half regardless of who contributed more or does it just depend? It's such a spicy area because it depends who your lawyer is. It depends what proof you have. But I would be getting in writing, making sure even if that's just an email. Hey, George, I'm paying 30 percent. You're paying 70 percent. Love you. Get it in writing. Love you. Have a good day, honey. Bye. But even if you don't want to have a binding financial agreement, I just, I'm such a strong believer of creating a paper trail. Create the

proof that you might need in the future for both of your sakes. Because I've said this before, a binding financial agreement should be a waste of money. Like we should spend this money on this agreement and never have to rely on it. And you can pay for that. Or if you're like me, we just are so strapped for cash. Sit down together. Talk about it. Make your own little agreement because that's better than nothing. Like I'd prefer you to have something rather than nothing where it might be a piece of paper where you both sat down and you both signed it and you write, it's not a legally enforceable document. But when you come to a breakup, I might be like, yeah, George, I know you cheated on me, but we did agree that this was going to be the outcome and

we were both happy with it. So let's do that. Also don't cheat on me, George. yeah i promise so kind of still on that property line of thinking then if say harper and i for example if i just wanted to buy the house because i was in a financial position to do so and it had nothing to do with him do you think it's too naughty to maybe request that he pay rent absolutely not because this was controversial in the um the facebook group people absolutely not and we know that Jess is just about to do this like yes she's spoken about this on an episode before she's going through the pre-approval process and she's buying the house on her own despite being madly in love with James they're just not at the same stages in life like they've spoken about it historically

like James is still studying and Jess is so supportive of that and I think that that's a really beautiful situation to be in but again it's a super personal decision and lots of people have lots of mixed feelings about this some people think that if their partner has a house that their partner doesn't have to be contributing to the mortgage because it's their partner's mortgage and it's their wealth. And you shouldn't have to contribute to that because you should be contributing to your own wealth. And I think it's perfectly acceptable for you to be asking them for rent money. Like if that is the roof that is going over their heads, I think that they should be paying rent. But I do think that there should be a clear delineation between them paying rent,

not them paying your mortgage. Because yes, it's kind of here nor there in a way. Like George, if you give me $200 this week for rent, of course, I'm going to put it against my mortgage. But that is not what it is intended for. Like you're paying rent. And I think that that needs to be clear. Yeah. If you were living somewhere else. But people were pretty salty about the idea that you paying rent for your partner's property is contributing to something that you have no ownership over. Yeah, absolutely. So, you're not contributing to your own wealth, you're contributing to theirs people like that's dodgy but I don't think that's dodgy in any way shape or form I think you really need to have a think about why you feel that way is it because

you want to buy your own house is it because they had a pre-existing asset like at the end of the day as you said before George you're gonna have to put a roof over your head so if you don't want to leave it your partners because you don't want to make them wealthy because you're paying them rent, move out. Honestly, I'm a pretty black and white person. I would feel that paying rent to my partner is very fair. In saying that, I think that the rent should be absolutely fair for the location as well. So, I don't think it would be fair for you to move into my place, George, as my partner. And then I say, well, half the mortgage is $400 a week and you have to pay that as rent. And you go, but the average rent around here is 200 bucks a week. Like that seems a bit

steep. Like I think if they've taken on an asset and they have gotten a mortgage, your rent should be equal to what rent is in that location to keep things fair. Not necessarily, oh, well, half the mortgage is this. And then you feel like you're creating their wealth. Like that's not fair. I feel like we're really talking about relationships where the other person's real asshole I know like they do not want what is best for us I was talking to Steve about this and this is showing my privilege like he was like why do you have to do that episode no I was like because because I do honey yeah yeah and he was yeah he was just shocked that this was something that really needed to be spelt out and I just honestly I've been in other relationships please don't get

me wrong. I have kissed toads. Haven't we all? Yeah, look, we all have. I've just lucked out with Steve and that's why I'm trying to lock him down, guys. Like, so far, so good. We just need to make it to November for the wedding because that's all booked and ready. But I feel very lucky that that is the, I guess, outlook that my partner has. I do know that that's not the outlook that a lot of people have, though. Yeah, definitely. And that's why it is so important that we are talking about this today. In terms of the nuts and bolts of it, V, in terms of figuring out who should contribute what, how do you actually do that? Because it sounds like a mathematical nightmare. You and I are both not great at maths. So, it's my- Excuse me.

Seek. Stat scale. Have you got the third wrong before? Oh, look, I'm just not very smart when I'm trying to sound smart, you know. But in terms of figuring out what you could or should be doing. It's totally up to you. And it's such a moving conversation. It might be set and forget, and then you finish uni and you need to renegotiate those terms. Or, you know, your partner might get a massive pay rise and then you need to renegotiate it. Or you might take a different job and a step back in career so that, you know, in a couple of years you can slingshot forward. Like there are lots of moving parts. And as we said, it's not set and forget, but you and your partner might agree that contributing 40% of your incomes to

a shared expenses account is a good way of managing it. You may go more, you may go less. It's honestly completely up to you and what works for the expenses that you guys have. But choosing a percent that both of you contribute does work for a lot of couples. That doesn't mean that you should have to have joint accounts. You could just pay a different percent of rent. I know that when it comes to rental agreements nowadays, you can actually change the percentage on the actual agreement. So you don't have to have any kind of shared finances. However, G, what is really important to remember and what I saw people talking about on the thread that you posted recently on this topic in our Facebook group was that financial contribution isn't the only type

of contribution. And I can't say that loud enough. I can't say that enough times on this episode, but if you have greater responsibilities in the household, or you're looking after the kids a few days a week while your partner is working full-time, we really need to establish what that non-financial but extremely important contribution is worth to your relationship. And all I can tell you is it is worth a lot, I promise you, but it's not something that, you know, should be swept to the side and we only talk about finances, G. So, you said 40% there? In your experience, is that kind of the standard? Look, it seems to be the standard. It is definitely not, the goal. As you know, G, I don't believe in percentage-based budgets because I think that

they're unrealistic for different types of financial circumstances. But I think sitting down and going, well, what are our expenses? And rent might be $1,200 each month. So, work that out. Then you work out what bills are and then work out what everything else is and work out what that means. If you're living in a capital city, G, it might be like 60% or 70% of your income because you live in a really expensive part of town and you're both uni students. So, you don't actually have that much income coming in in comparison to your expenses. Or it might be 20%. Like, who knows? It changes. And what I don't want you guys to get from this is a Victoria said 40%. Like, that's on average what I see people doing. But when it comes to working out the math,

as we talked about it before, like, there could be a standard conversation, right? So, if you both work out what your annual salaries are after tax, take that amount, divide it by 12 to get to a monthly figure each. Then next, add your income after tax, net your income. So, what is coming into your bank account together to calculate a joint income. So, your monthly amount plus my monthly amount. Then divide each individual's income by this joint income figure and then times it on your phone by a hundred and that will give you a percentage amount. And that's where the conversation can start. That's not necessarily saying that, oh my gosh, like that's the be all end all. Like that might come out as, gee, you're 60, I'm 40. And then we might go, oh, Vee, you're

40. But also, gee, does so much more of the housework you do next to nothing here, here and here, Victoria. You don't do all these things. Let's settle on 45, 55. Or you might go, hey, gee, it's come out as 25, 75. Let's renegotiate this because it just doesn't feel right for our personal situations, but it's a really good conversation starter to go. This is what that split looks like because of how much more one person earns than the other. Yeah. Amazing. Okay. That's cool. I had a couple more questions and this is just such a big topic. I feel like we could talk all day. We literally could. I could jump up and down for a very long time about this topic. Exactly. So I don't know, maybe we should do a follow-up episode, but I feel like maybe

it's time that we donned the drama caps and got into character. I'll get my drama badge out and I will put it on and then you get your drama hat and we're ready. Gee, what are we doing? Okay. So give us a situation. So the way this is going to play out is I'm going to be the partner who is perhaps responding negatively to the conversation that you're having. So you're bringing up with me the proposition of financial equity within the relationship. And I am responding as a bit of an undesirable partner, I guess. So you're my undesirable partner, Georgia King. Yes. I'm the dropkick, man. Okay. I like this. So far, so good. So far, so good. Do you feel like you're in character? I do actually. Okay, cool. Me too. The hangover

helps, I think. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So, let's start out, Vee, I think with you broaching the conversation with me, if that's okay. I'm really putting on the director's hat now. All right. Good direction. So, go ahead. Welcome to my house. All right. Thank you for letting me in your house to have this conversation. But I think before we actually have this conversation, G, sidestep. It's really important to acknowledge that this person might not be ready for this conversation. Like you have had the time and the reflection space to go, oh, I need to talk to G about this. What am I going to do? Maybe you've Googled some things. Maybe you've done some, you know, notes on the back of an envelope. Maybe you've had the time

and you've had the grace to sit down and go, all right, this afternoon when G gets back from work, I'm going to talk to her. So, you need to be aware that this person might not be ready for this conversation. And you really need to prime that. And I think that it is only fair to prime for a conversation like this, because you can't just catch someone off guard if you've never talked about income in a way. At the end of the day, money can be awkward to talk about. We are very lucky in She's On The Money that, you know, gee, you and I talk about cash all the time. We talk about money. I do with my partner. Jess does the same thing. Like, it is second nature to us, but it is not second nature to most people. So, please be aware that with any of these

conversations, you're very likely to catch your partner off guard. They're not going to know what to reply. Might be the first time they'd even considered a concept like that. So, maybe before we have this conversation, G, we wind back to the morning. And in the morning, I might say, hey, G, hope you have a really good day at work. Actually, when you get home, I've been listening to this podcast and this podcast it's been telling me to have a conversation with my partner about splitting income differently because you know you make so much more money than me but let's have that conversation later so your partner knows that they're coming into the house to have this conversation you're not springing it on them so I think that's a really important piece of homework

that we all need to be doing we could actually do that in a lot of different places like George you might really want to go to a party on the weekend. I don't really want to go. I might go, oh, look, George, when you get home, let's have a talk about that party because I'm just not sure about my feelings. You are planting the seed that you want to talk about it. You're not catching them completely off guard with an opinion they might not have seen coming. I'm not saying that every partner needs this, but I absolutely would use your discretion when it comes to that. So, G, that was the morning. You've just walked in from work and we're going to have this conversation. Have you got a bevy? I've got a bevy. I've got my bevy. I've just sat down on

the couch. And we're going to have a chat. And I'm going to say, so, G, this podcast that I was listening to said that we should talk about equity in our relationship. And, you know, they were talking about how equity and equality aren't the same things and that, you know, equities made up of income but also all the stuff that we do around the house like gee you know on the weekends you mow the lawns and like you wash the dog and i do all the dishes and you know the laundry and stuff and all of that needs to be taken into consideration so that we both feel like we're you know playing an equal part in this relationship what do you think i hear what you're saying toots uh but i work harder than you so sorry not interested my money is my money your

money is your money. We split 50-50 baby. Look, I totally get that G, but we're in this situation where I'm just getting a little bit frustrated because I've got these goals and you and I sit down all the time and we talk about what we want to achieve together. And when we set a shared goal, I'm not able to achieve my own personal goals. And it upsets me a bit that you're able to achieve your personal goals because you've got so much surplus income above and beyond to what I do and you know we're saving for this holiday that we've got in September and I'm putting all my money into that because I know that you really want to go and so do I but that means that I can't go out for drinks and stuff on the weekend with my friends and you go to golf like

every Sunday morning and that's like 80 bucks so I was just wondering if we could talk about it because I also work really hard but I want to make sure that our relationship always feels fair You've changed my mind, darling. Really well said. That was so succinct and I'm so sorry for the way I behaved. Let's quit it. I'll pay more. I love you. Do you know what? I absolutely would have fired you if I'd hired you to be an actor on this podcast. Yeah, really sorry, G. Not made up for you. But I think talking to a partner who says stuff like that, we need to put on a different hat and go okay if this was a friend how would I tell them to advocate for themselves because often that is the advice that you should be taking yourself I can't sit here and go gee this is how you should

talk to your partner I don't know your partner I think we also need to exercise a little bit of caution around a topic like this if I am going to suggest that you talk to your partner about something like this I am talking to you from a very privileged position where I'm not in an abusive relationship, Georgia. I can talk to my partner very openly, very honestly. I could go off my rocker and be safe. If you do not feel like that is a situation you are in, I would really second guess having this conversation, not go, oh, Victoria said I should have it and get yourself into a bit of a sticky situation. I think it's really important as well to go, oh, I'm really sorry that you don't think that way, but I work just as hard

as you do Georgia, even though I'm not remunerated financially in exactly the same way. I think really standing your ground and having that conversation, like I'm really opinionated on this topic because I care so much about you. I care literally so much it hurts sometimes about our community. And it breaks my heart to think that someone would be in a relationship with a partner that doesn't see the value that their partner has to provide. Like I can't imagine how upset i would be george if you came to work one day carp says i don't work hard in comparison to him i'd be like what a dick do you know what i mean like it's just not i wouldn't want your partners to talk to you this way but unfortunately it is the reality of some people's situations

where they might not have talked about it before also think about your partner's money story how have they been brought up have they been brought up to assume that the female does all of the the work? Have they just assumed this going forward? Have they just not had the grace of having that conversation before? And that's why I think it's so important to prime for that conversation, not just spring it on them and hope that they're ready because you got the grace of a warning. Let's extend that to our partners. Yep. Amazing. Well said. Okay. Next response. This is my personal favorite. It actually came from the Facebook group. Can't remember who posted it, but thank you so much. But I thought women wanted to be equal to men. This is in the case

of a hetero relationship. I should qualify. Yeah. Okay. That is very fair. Absolutely. And that's why I really want to have the same opportunities that you do to save and invest my money as well, because, you know, I want what is accessible to you, but unfortunately, I don't earn what you earn at this point. And I'd really like to talk about what equity in this relationship looks like. So maybe we can start a list and talk about what you do and what I do and how we can both contribute to this relationship. And George, I say that because if someone is willing to say, I thought that women wanted to be equal to men, that relationship, George, I'm just stabbing the duck. They don't contribute a lot domestically,

George. I'm just getting a feeling. So I think that having that conversation about equity and what that means and also remembering where they've come from. Like we need to give people a little bit more, you know, and I keep using the word grace. We need to give them grace because they might've been brought up differently to you. They might have had a completely different upbringing. And I think it's not fair to just assume that this is second nature to everybody because it's not. And it's a privilege to be having this conversation now, but it's one of those things where, hey, I just think that we should be equal. And I think that we should be having this conversation. And I've said before on the podcast, and do you know why I say it on

the podcast actually, Georgia? Why? Because my mum used to say it to me and it was always just such a safety net for me growing up that I just want to extend it to my She's On The Money community because I know I lent on that as a teenager and I would want you to have the same opportunity. And that is blame me. You know, growing up, mum would be like, if you don't want to be at a party or you want to be picked up early or, you know, you don't want to go to George's house for a sleepover. Just blame me. I'll back you up. I'll say I'm the big bad wolf. Mom, sorry, mom's not going to let me do that. Like how many times have we blamed our parents if we are, you know, privileged enough to have parents that we can rely on in that way

for not being able to do something. And I just think that, you know, blame the podcast, Blame Victoria. Oh my gosh. So, I was listening to this podcast and this crazy podcaster said that we should be talking about equity. So, what do you think? Like, blame me. Like, I genuinely would be absolutely flattered if you guys were using that as an excuse and I somehow, even if your partner hates me, was a pivotal moment in your relationship to reach more equality and more equity. Like, I just think that's so special. And, you know, I say that because my mum did that for me and my mum was that scapegoat to start conversations I didn't want to have or you know I was very conservative as a teenager Georgia King I can't imagine

surprise but I just remember being so conservative that you know I didn't particularly want to go to parties that had alcohol at it because that was a bit scary to me so I remember being like oh mum wants to know is there going to be alcohol there yeah good one mum didn't want to know Victoria wanted to know, but she didn't want to look like a loser. Yeah. So blame it on mum. Blame it on Victoria, because if anything, I think this podcast has been thus far such a positive catalyst of conversation and change that if you don't know how to start this conversation or bring it up, or even say you want it, because that could be a really hard conversation to have too. Like telling your partner you want to change something dramatic about your relationship is hard.

like let's not pretend this is an easy conversation to have but it might be a really good catalyst to say hey you know you don't have to get them to listen to this podcast because then they'll know why you're blaming me but hey oh my gosh such an interesting podcast they were talking about this this and this what are your thoughts and your partner might go oh oh my god men work so much harder or this or that and you get to have this conversation kind of as a third party without having the conversation directly your partner might be like oh that's a really interesting concept. We should do that. And you go, great idea, Brian. Like, it's one of those things where I think that the conversation can start in a million different ways. But gee, if you don't

know how to start it, start it by saying you listen to a podcast. Yeah, that's the perfect place. Well, I think that's probably the perfect place to end today's episode V. Your thoughts? Are you happy with that? I'm happy with everything except our really horrific role playing. But you know what like everything practice is going to make perfect and if you guys thought that was the first and the only time you would hear it on the shares on the money podcast you were wrong because i think we had far too much fun we really did we really really did so before we go as always just before we head off we'd like to acknowledge and pay respect to australia's aboriginal and torres strait islander peoples they're the traditional custodians of the lands the waterways

and the skies all across australia we thank you for sharing and for caring for the land on which we are able to learn we pay our respects to elders past and present and we share our friendship and our kindness see you next week guys oh and thank you to everyone who helped shape this episode it was really really helpful having all of your ideas injected into the show from the facebook group so oh my gosh yes little angels let's do more contributions i love it let's ask them more questions free labor free labor bye