She's On The Money - FRIDAY DRINKS: A BNPL Regulation Conversation

Episode Date: July 14, 2022

Happy Friday! Kick back with the ladies as we wrap the week, celebrate some excellent money wins, and chat about the latest news from over the ditch in New Zealand that Afterpay is now available on alcohol sales. Strap in for a regulation conversation between the gals! Plus we answer a Money Dilemma about how to get over trauma post bankruptcy.If you or anyone you know needs support, here are some places than can help...Beyond BlueThe National Debt Helpline online or phone: [phone]Acknowledgement of Country By Natarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements.The advice shared on She’s on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She’s on The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are Authorised Representatives of Infocus Securities Australia Proprietary Limited ABN 47 097 797 049 AFSL - AFSL 236523.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello, my name is Natasha Nabanunga-Bamblett. I'm a proud Yorta Yorta, Kernai, Wolperi and Awadjeri woman. And before we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which this podcast is recorded on Awadjeri country, acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through. As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and the storytelling of you to make a difference for today and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it. She's on the money. She's on the money.

hello and welcome to she's on the money the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom today is friday which means it is time to sit back with our friends with a bevy in hand to unpack our favourite moments of the week, and of course, to celebrate you, our incredible She's On The Money community. As always, we're going to be sharing our favourite money wins, we're going to discuss what's making news in the finance world, and we're going to help to answer a very juicy money question, which this week is all about bankruptcy and money trauma. But first, it is time to recap the week that was. Miss Jessica Rucci, talk us through Monday's Money Diary episode? So Monday's Diarist was uber hardworking. 10 out of 10. She was an Uber driver,

which I found really interesting because I think I said when we were on the call, V, I don't think I have ever had an Uber driver. No, you did. You did. Since we recorded that episode, we flew to Sydney and on the drive from the hotel to the airport to come home, what did we have, Jess? A female driver. And I'm pretty sure I said to her, you're my first. And I was like, Jess, check this out. This is so aligned to our content this week. We have to mention it. We didn't mention it to her because we were kind of like awkwardly sitting in the back

people like, do we tell her this is cool or not? Yeah, but it was really interesting to talk to her about what it kind of looks like because I have caught many an Uber, but I've never really thought about, I guess, what it's like on the other side in terms of, you know, how do you pick and choose? Do you actually make good money or is it one of those things where it's actually not that worth it? Yeah, because you hear mixed bag stories, right, where people are like, oh, it's not worth it, rah, rah, rah.

But then you actually looked at that money diary and I was like, oh, sis is making bank. Yeah, it seems pretty lucrative. And we picked her brain around the safety as a female as well, which is something that's very front of mind for me just as an anxious woman in general. So it was really interesting to get her perspective on that and well worth the listen.

I loved it. I felt like it was an uber good episode, Jessica Ritchie. I'm going to cancel myself. It's okay. Let's move on. Georgia King. Hello. How are you?

Oh, dandy. Feeling good. You're dandy. I always like asking you how you are because you've always got a creative response. Whereas I know if I was like, Jess, how are you? You'd be like, yeah, I'm fine. Not bad. I saw a TikTok the other day, actually, that was like Australians never say how they feel.

Like if you ask them how they are, you'd be like, oh, not bad. And you have to like fill in the blanks. Like, why can't you just say you are well? You have to just say, oh, I'm not bad. How far is it? Not far. Like, come on. Come on.

We never tell you the direct answer. we just tell you what it's not. That is true. That is true. Well, I'm dandy, so I can confirm that. But on Tuesday this week, bit of a twist, a little surprise, a little Tuesday drop. We just could not wait to get that episode in your ears. And by that, I mean, I clicked Tuesday instead of Wednesday when uploading the episode. Sorry, not sorry. Let's call it a very cute mistake. A happy accident. We spoke all about travel insurance, which was, well, it's top of mind for a lot of people because everyone is on the Amalfi Coast right now. How rude is it?

I mean, you guys just got back from Europe. But we weren't on the Amalfi Coast. No. And I feel like every man and his influencer is over there at the moment. You really are. I just, I'm envious. They're sipping Aperol. They're going on boats.

They're going around the Como Lake. Like, can you stop? I've got to go to work. And hopefully they're insuring themselves as well. Exactly right. Well, what we learned in the episode is that the most important thing to insure is actually yourself. So we want comprehensive insurance. Ladies, if you want to know more about that, if you do have travel plans lined up, then it's definitely the episode

for you. But TLDRG, the most important thing to insure is actually yourself. It's not your camera or your phone or your assets. It's actually about making sure that you're safe and secure. So if you can't be bothered listening to it, I kind of want to spoil it for you because I think it is so genuinely important and it still baffles me to this day that so many people be like, it doesn't really matter. I don't want to waste my money on insurance. And literally, Jess, when we went overseas, I was like, I'll book it for us. We'll work it out later because I just want to make sure you not only have good insurance, but I know it went through. I was crazy about it. But you know what else is crazy? G King on tour. Segway to the money wins. All right, Georgia King, what have

you got for us this week for our budget direct money wins? They were absolutely, I want to say thumping. They were really, really good this week. Who thinks that? Who reads our money diaries their head and goes, this is something. I don't know what I meant to say, but anyway, here we are. There's eight of them. So brace yourselves. The first one for the day comes from Kimberly. Money win. My small business is finally thriving and doing the best it's ever done. Crying emoji. Wholesome. I love that. It's a wholesome one to start us off. The next one comes from Sarah. My home insurance is currently due for renewal. I shopped around and completed quotes with a few different insurers online as I do each and every

year. What a queen. So smart. But I couldn't find any cheaper than my renewal amount. So I phoned the existing insurer and asked for a discount. They knocked one hundred and forty dollars off the annual premium money win. That is a very good call to make. But also you could just see that call as you making one hundred and forty bucks. Exactly. Jess, if I gave you one hundred and forty bucks to make a phone call, would you do it? Absolutely. I do it for free all the time for you. It's true. It's true. George, I actually made her call my gym one time because I was too scared to cancel my membership. I feel like I remember this. Yeah, I feel like it was an ordeal because it was a nightmare to get out of. There was like forms and we had to go in. I just,

I'm traumatized. Just gets shit done. She does. Alrighty, the next win comes from Tori, a money win. My partner and I booked our first holiday together in over five years yesterday and I had budgeted for it so it didn't feel like it was setting me back or that I was taking it from somewhere that I shouldn't be. Such a nice feeling. Well done to you. Tori, make sure you get travel insurance. Good name, make sure you get travel insurance. And also how much of a better holiday you're going to have. Now you're not stressed about money on it. Exactly. And like saving up for it instead of after pay. I love it. Get it, Queens. Yes, exactly right. The next one comes from Kathy. This one's a bit of a PSA, which I saw you commented on in the group, Jess.

So it must be good if Jess is getting involved. You know this stuff is good. It comes from Kathy. I read about the Medibank Private Live Better app in this group a year or so ago, and I downloaded it. You earn points through logging any health and well-being activities you've participated in each day. You can then sync your fitness trackers to it. You earn points that can then be swapped for rewards like Adidas vouchers, AirPods, smartwatches, and so on. Then a few months ago, I had enough points to replace my Fitbit that had died, and I now have enough points to claim a $200 payment towards health insurance premiums. Yes, please. Haven't heard of this. Bloody brilliant campaign. I feel like it sounds a little bit like my AIA Vitality membership, which I've mentioned

before, which comes with my insurance. Because if I make enough steps and I do the health checks and all of the stuff in the app on there, I mean, I could get into it, but there's a lot to it. You actually get a discount on your insurance. So like I'm always trying to make sure that I make my steps and I'm healthy and I do my optical check every year and do all of my stuff because you get different amounts of points for different activities that you do that all contribute towards your health. And I think it just makes sense. Like these health insurance companies, you're like, this is a money win. This makes sense. But it's a win for them as well, because if they've got healthier customers, the likelihood of you actually claiming on insurance is lower. So you're

less likely to be sick, but you're also saving money. Like it's a winner for everybody. It is smart. It's genius. From that remarkable high, I'm now going to take us through some money losses, but they all made me laugh. So brace yourselves. The first one comes from Lisa. Money loss. I went to see Frozen, the musical I'm assuming, this weekend with my child. They asked for an Olaf plush and I thought, why not? $75 later. I knew where that was going. Moving forward, I will now be asking the cost of something before saying yes again. $75 for an Olaf plush? You're kidding me. That's ridiculous. The cost of living has gotten out of control. You're kidding yourself, mate. Oh, Lisa. Jess and I went to Disneyland recently and I did buy an Eeyore toy. How much

did that set you back? I can't remember, but it was probably very expensive and I gave it to my dog so I just feel like that was the most expensive thing I've ever bought her oh bless okay the next loss comes from Ellie money loss my partner got blind drunk and got a taxi alone from Melbourne to Geelong I don't think it's meant to be funny like I'm so sorry Ellie that sucks but we've also all been there you know I hope you put it on his card and not the shared card I'd be I would be roofable as well. Take the meal I made. But I just had this idea, like you both know Steve, my partner, well,

like I can imagine if he'd done something like that and turned up at home, he'd be like, I'm home, aren't you excited? And I'd be like, how did you get here? He would be so stoked. I came home early, Jess. Aren't you excited? Not good. Oh, no, sir.

Not good. The next one comes from Angelica. Money win. I scored $200 off my wedding reception dress down from $500, which is incredible. Money loss. As I was traveling to the dress shop, I ended up getting a speeding fine. So no, kind of all the evens out. I am going to end it on an inspirational note today. Ladies, it comes from Tegan. Money win. I got a promotion at work, but the salary wasn't quite what I expected it to be. I thought about taking the easy option and just accepting it and

signing the paper as I was already super excited to get the promotion. I decided to sleep on it and woke up the next morning and wrote a list of points as to why I was worth more. I went in feeling confident and stated the facts and then gave them my number. They rang me on Friday and said they were proud of me for going back and they've rounded the number up. What?

Thank you, She's On The Money, for giving me the skills to achieve this. What a good place to leave it. Yeah. I love that. Georgia, I thought you were taking a few liberties going, I've got eight this week. I was like, oh, do you? But all of those absolutely made the cut.

It has been great, G, celebrating some of your Budget Direct Money Wins, Budget Direct winner of Canstar's Insurer of the Year Award 2022. Budget Direct insurance solved. With that, my friends, let's go to a quick break and then we're going to dive straight into some very juicy money topics. All right, let's dive straight back in. Miss Jessica Ritchie, I believe you have a piece of content you would like to discuss with the group. Of course. Now, don't turn off when I say this word, after pay. I don't think we turn off Georgia gets real spicy. She gets real heated.

She's literally just like stood up. She's rearranging my bra straps. Let's go. Let's go. I'm ready. I know we talk about afterpay a lot, but we got so many DMs because over the weekend, this is in Auckland, New Zealand, but I wouldn't be surprised if they tried to roll it out here as well.

A Bottle-O rolled out afterpay in their store, which means that obviously you can break down your payment of alcohol into four easy payments. Yeah. And there's been a lot of criticism around this beyond what we normally talk about. And I thought it was a very interesting conversation because alcohol is obviously a controlled substance. It's an addictive substance. And in Australia, and I know we're talking about New Zealand, but there's definitely a history of culture relating to bad habits when it comes to overconsumption of alcohol. And the criticism that we're seeing is people saying this shop

shouldn't do it. It's so unethical. If people can't afford a drink, they shouldn't buy a drink. this is going to enable people who arguably maybe are in a bit of a bad place to purchase more than they would normally be able to because they can afford more. And the debate it kind of sparked was really interesting because I think it comes down to ethically, is the responsibility on the store owner? So let's say it's a small business because it didn't roll out in like a Dan Murphy's, I think it was an independent. Is it the store owner's job to regulate that? Is it our job as consumers to keep an eye on what we're doing? Or more broadly, should the government be stepping in and keeping an eye on these things? Where does that responsibility lie? Because at the moment,

it really seems like everyone's kind of going, not my problem, not my circus, not my monkeys, and nothing's being done. And these policies or these steps are being put in place that really, in my opinion, kind of push the boundaries of what is and isn't okay. But that's also totally a personal perception thing. And so I wanted to see what you guys kind of thought about it. Well, given I'm basically best friends with Jacinda Ardern, let me talk that up with her. At our next meeting, I'll just bring it up and be like, hey, could you just fix this? And she'll be like, no problems, babe, got you. And we'll organize it all. But I think from my perspective, again, I'm obviously not that stoked with it. But if we compare it to other industries,

we were talking and it hasn't come out yet. It'll come out next week. We have a money diary with a woman who is a sex worker. And she was saying that payment terminals often kick sex workers off those terminals because they think that they're generating money that is maybe not as kosher as it could be. And they see that as a high risk industry. So they say, no, thank you. So it's the platform taking the responsibility. And then also looking at the way Australia governs financial advisors and accountants and, you know, financial platforms, it's actually very different to the way it is managed around the world. So Jess, you and I are actually going to a conference in September in the US. It's a finance conference so that we can learn about how other people are

producing money content internationally and we are so genuinely excited. Actually, low key, I'm speaking at the event. I am stoked. But in America, the onus is put on the consumer and they say the consumer has to go do their own research and make the decision that's right for them. In Australia, the opposite is true. And you're seeing this a lot at the moment in the media with financial advisors being come down on like a ton of bricks when it comes to ASIC regulations and Finfluences are, you know, copping a lot of heat at the moment for the content they produce because in Australia, the onus is put on the content creator or the onus is put on the business. So if you then apply this to this particular situation, I look at it and I go,

yeah, it's in New Zealand. There are friends across the ditch. Yes, they're not governed by the same rules and regulations here in Australia. But from my perspective as an Australian, I would then assume that the onus is on Afterpay to regulate that and not allow things like alcohol or tobacco or gambling on their platforms because it's not an essential item. I think you guys and I sit in a very privileged position where we get to look at afterpay as something that is, you know, the big bad wolf and we do need to look at it from a little bit more of a less entitled view and go, do you know what? There are people out there that need this to get by. It's something that they're using that is enabling them to have a good lifestyle or change their lives in a way

that they weren't able to before, whether that's because they can't access credit or they have you know we've heard stories in our community people like V I use Afterpay all the time because I only have Centrelink and I just need to get through the next pay and I'm you know I'm really responsible with it but I might be buying Christmas presents or I might be buying things that my kid needs for school or more recently I've spoken to people and they're like V it's so good I know that you don't like Afterpay but I've been paying for doctor's appointments on that that otherwise I would have been really stressed about that my kid needed and I go wow like there are some good reasons to use it. But then alcohol to me, that's a luxury. That's not something that is a necessity.

It's something that can be used and abused and it just is not putting our community in the right position. And the message is I'm getting a test to that. Like they genuinely break my heart. It's making me go, oh, I wish I could do more. But what can you do? This isn't even happening in our country. Well, a lot of the people that are going to be using Afterpay in bottle shops, if this does become a thing across the board and infiltrates into the Australian marketplace as well. They're people that can't afford alcohol from where they're at currently. They're in these bad, bad positions and it's really exploiting extremely vulnerable people. That's why I don't like Afterpay full stop. But to move into this alcohol space is just, makes me very mad. And

we saw it maybe like six months ago maybe a little bit longer you can now like after pay your cocktails yeah and it's not just stuff like that right like we highlighted on our she's on the money stories payo which is a company that purely exists for bars restaurants and food providing services and i was just like what there's a food specific buy now pay later like where's the line like how does that work and i think my biggest gripe with it is that it's just not regulated it in the same way credit would be because a lot of people are going to jump up and down and be like, Victoria, you can go and put a bottle of vodka on your credit card tomorrow. Yeah, but like there's checks in place for you to be able to do that. They've checked your financial history,

they've checked your serviceability, they've checked whether you can repay that loan because that's basically what it is. Whereas those same restrictions don't apply to afterpay. So to me, it's a really slippery slope. So yes, obviously my disdain for Afterpay is very clear. I didn't even know you had a disdain for it. Just a little bit of disdain. But I wanted to play the devil's advocate here, ladies, because we, as we've said on the podcast, are heading into a recession. Don't use that word around here. We were having a good day too now. But things are really, really tough. The cost of living is ridiculous right now. And small businesses are facing that crisis as well. So we know that Afterpay is really good for small business. So how do they

kind of balance that ethical dilemma of wanting to use Afterpay to attract more consumers and customers while also dealing with the ethical ambiguity of offering a service that might put customers in a precarious situation? It's such a hard position because you look at it and you go pragmatically Afterpay makes a lot of sense for a small business. Statistically, G, the stats on the Afterpay website say the average Australian small business merchant sees a 13% uplift in revenue by partnering with Afterpay, which equates to around $32,000 in new revenue annually. Like if I was a small business and it doesn't matter what I was selling, if I was selling candles or stationery, or if I had a bikini business, like I would look at it and go, well, from my perspective,

I just want to sell my product and get my product on more people's shelves. And a good way to do that is to increase the ways people can pay. And, you know, if I'm selling candles and I go, well, my candles are only like $30 each or $50 each or whatever inflation has made them these days, what is my responsibility? Like, should I stop Jess from paying for one of my candles? Cause she really wants it in four separate payments. Like Jess is a very, I'm using you as an example, my friend. But just as a really financially conscious person, I know what your savings habits are. And I know that if you used a platform like Afterpay, you would probably be using it because you're cash flowing or you're like, oh, well, I gave myself this budget and

cash flow plan and I only have this amount to spend per week. So I'm going to take it out of my cash flow plan for the next four weeks. And this makes sense. And you can use it really constructively. And for the people that just want to use it as a cash flow tool, like, are you taking something away from them by worrying about the people that aren't as responsible and how responsible are you for people's actions? Like, obviously, I care so much about our community and want them to be in the best possible position. So I jump up and down about it. But Georgia, how much of a responsibility is it on you to manage your friends' finances or the decisions they make if they're a grown adult? Yeah, it's such a hard one because it does. It comes down

to the individual. But what's missing in that piece is the education. And we're doing our best to choose on the money to explain the details of all of this and, you know, pierce through the marketing that is really confusing and makes us feel like things are okay when they're really not. So I don't know who's responsible. It's really, really hard. It is, right? Because it's like, I feel like it's my responsibility as a financial advisor to educate you guys. But I also say often, like, I don't care what you do with your money. As long as you're educated and you know that the decisions you are making are the right ones for you I really want to be able to put the onus back on you and say well gee if you go and make that decision

that's on you like I'm not going to judge that situation that's not my position if we took this and put it in any other stream of life whether that is sex or religion money is that other spicy topic that people don't like talking about how much do I have to control over your religion or your sex life or any of that, why should I then have a say over, you know, my client's financial life? Do you know what I mean? Like, unless you've come to me as an advisor and said, I want financial advice from you, Victoria, I don't think it's any of my business to dish out advice. This podcast is educational because I want you to want to educate yourself. But if you're listening to it, it's because you want that already, right? Like, yeah, it's about where the

onus is, but it's also about when do you expect the government to step in? And if this were to happen in Australia, which it basically has already, with buy now, pay later platforms like Payo, where's the line? Where does the government step in and say, do you know what? We know that the Australian population does not have good financial literacy. So therefore, there needs to be a few steps here to put them in the best possible position. Whereas if they could be like, oh no, like financial literacy is a core pillar of our education system and they've been doing it since PrEP, they know, well, that might be a different story. But till then, I think that there needs to be a bigger governing body that makes sure that we are in the best possible

position in the same way that the government has restricted the sale of tobacco and have restricted the sale of alcohol to people under the age of 18. And like they've made all these other rules to protect us. Why is this not an extension of that? And I think because we're treading unprecedented waters here with, you know, I think businesses like Afterpay and Buy Now Paypal and other platforms in general are really pushing and testing the boundaries to see what they can and can't get away with. And they, you know, would have really big teams in the background working to find how they can be compliant in the most bendy way possible that works for them. I'm a big believer in the power of the people. And what I would say to all of our friends in

New Zealand and all of our friends in Australia, should we come to this point, make a report in New Zealand, the Commerce Commission, which is comcom.govt.nz. They're the regulating body here in Australia. It's Consumer Affairs. And one of their dot points on their website, it says that their role is to regulate credit contracts and Consumer Finance Act, which protects consumers when they borrow money or buy goods on credit. And so while it's not a direct line of credit. They're definitely borrowing money to do this. It absolutely is. And I would suggest if you feel the same way that we do, send them a nice email. There's a big red button that says make a complaint. It's very easy.

They make it really easy and just say to them, hey, I'm really concerned about the direction this is going. This seems really unethical. And I think it's something you should look into because if enough people start making that complaint, it will trigger an investigation. And that's all you can really do is try to facilitate change, but it requires people to take that little step and do something about it. So that's what I would personally suggest because I do think that right now these platforms are kind of seeing what they can get away with and it's up to us as a community and just as human beings to say, actually, it's not good enough. Yeah. And to talk to each other about it as well. If you have mates that you know use Afterpay and would be tempted by something

like this, if you are in New Zealand, talk to them about it, help them out with that education if they're not. Share this podcast with them. You don't even have to sit them down and be like, okay, Georgia, I was thinking you need to X, Y, Z. You can bring finance topics up in really non-confrontational ways where you put the onus back on you and you'd be like, oh my gosh, I was listening to this great podcast the other day and they were saying X, Y, Z. Jess, if you haven't listened to it, I'll send you the link because honestly, it made me really think and you just don't have to say, oh my gosh, Jess, so I noticed you use Afterpay and I just don't think that's a good thing. It's not your job to tell people what to do with their money, but I think it's

everybody's job to increase the level of financial literacy we have and once we get to a point where I genuinely feel like our community is financially literate I'll probably not be as vocal on these platforms because I'll be like cool like they exist but I know people use them responsibly like and I know that people understand the repercussions of their decisions and I know that people are in a pretty good position because they've you know structured things right but we can't genuinely say that and I think that that's why we're so uncomfortable because we're looking at it going, there are so many people that are going to end up in compromising positions because of this because they just don't know any better. And I mean, that's a really beautiful thing that

we care, but you also have to go, how much of this is our responsibility? How much of it is the responsibility of the government and how much is a product responsibility? Lots to think about there, ladies. But I reckon it's probably time for a little Money Dilemma, if we're interested. I would love that. Let's have a listen. My husband and I had to start over again after being bankrupt from our business. we have done an amazing job saving we got a 20 deposit together purchased a block of land and now building however i am petrified of having not so much money in the account i just keep thinking back to when we had nothing we've worked so hard and i know we have money in the accounts

and we are quite stable but i have a massive fear of looking at the bank accounts and i just don't know what to go where to go from here we have no other debts apart from a home loan please help me I really feel for her she sounds like genuinely stressed like that's my first thought like off the back of that yeah actually I don't that tone of voice was very like oh I I'm not in a good place with this I totally get being stressed out I think like I've obviously never been through bankruptcy myself but we did a really good episode actually on it a couple months ago but I would highly recommend it because we spoke a lot about the stigma and how it can actually be a really positive choice for somebody if you're making it and it's the right decision for you, which I think

is a great thing. But I can totally understand how going through something like that could really bring out a lot of anxiety. And we referred to earlier as a little bit of trauma, you know, that real stress around, oh my gosh, like I don't want to find myself back in that position where things are so difficult and I'm making these really hard choices that do impact my future and do impact my ability to borrow money, I'm sure that they would have had to jump through some hoops to get this mortgage that they've got, which is very exciting. Congratulations. Yeah, super exciting.

But I can totally see how that would be really anxiety inducing. And I think that it's probably a little bit bigger than, you know, normally we'd say, hey, like, look at your cash flow system. It's not that at all, is it? I think it's a much bigger issue. And V, I'd love to know what you suggest she kind of do to help deal with those feelings. I think the first thing that I would say here is you are validated in your feelings. And even though, quote, you're better, that doesn't mean that there's not trauma there. And I think

validating that financial trauma exists is really important because it's scientifically proven that you can be traumatized from your financial situation. Bankruptcy includes so much more than like, oh, Jess, you have to file for bankruptcy and you skip down the lane and you're in a better position. Don't worry, you'll be able to get a mortgage later. Like there's so much stress and energy expelled during that process that actually needs working through. So in this circumstance, I would recommend, and this is not just for bankruptcy, if you've been through any type of traumatic event, financial or otherwise, I would seek therapy

and I would be going to talk to a professional counselor or psychologist, or I'd be going to talk to my GP asking for a mental health care plan and just saying, look, I need to work through these things because anxiety is real and we need to find ways to not only cope with that but really understand the root cause and you still feeling anxious about money even though you're quote in a better position is an indicator that you are not fully across that you're not over that line we're not over that at all and you actually need to delve deeper into that I do find this to be very common in people who experience bankruptcy or go through a similar process because you end up wanting to stick your head in the sand like bills make you so anxious

and you don't want to open another one because what if it's a bill that is not expected? What if it's a phone bill that's above and beyond what you had anticipated? What if it's the mortgage company calling you and saying, well, actually you accidentally paid your mortgage into the wrong account and you're now behind three months? Like I'm not saying that those things are true, but when you're anxious, you dramatize everything and you make everything seem much worse than it actually is. And we need to work on that because as a fellow anxious person, that impacts your ability in your relationships, in your ability to derive an income, in your ability to be physically healthy. These things impact you so deeply. It's not funny. And I think that we don't really talk

about, and I don't think we've talked about financial trauma on the podcast before, but I pulled up a few stats about it for you guys. It has a definition. Financial trauma is a moment in someone's life where things changed and a belief and image about their relationship with money turns around in a negative way. So obviously that makes sense to me. But one thing that I thought was really interesting is I was reading an article on the National Child Traumatic Stress Network, which is an American website, but often when it comes to finances, America is actually a lot more progressive when talking about things like financial trauma. Australia, I feel like, is genuinely 10 years behind when it comes to finance content. But I found this article that

said, researchers have revealed that socioeconomic status can be linked to a majority of anxiety disorders, which later can manifest into PTSD, which is post-traumatic stress disorder. Food insecurity, financial worries, housing instability, along with living in vulnerable conditions can wear on one's psyche. Like this is not just me going, oh my gosh, guys, get some help. Like genuinely. Research that was done by the APS, so the Australian Psychological Society, found that money was the number one stressor for employed people. So it makes sense that we're all stressed about money, but I just don't think we give it enough credit to say that you can be traumatized from your personal financial situations. Like whether it is bankruptcy, and I guess that sits

on one end of the spectrum with things like financial abuse and going through really dramatic situations all the way through to, you know, the situation I was in where I had a personal loan and I just couldn't sleep at night and I was super stressed about being able to pay it. So now whenever we talk about personal loans or, you know, I'm talking about trying to afford things, like I get that twang in the back of my head that makes me feel a little bit sick in my stomach because I go, oh, I don't want to be there. Like, I just don't want to be in a compromising position. And even when we were in Europe recently, Jess, like I had that pit in my stomach. I was like, am I reverting to old behaviors? Not because I was going into debt or using credit or doing

anything that I don't want to do, but because I wasn't tracking my money as closely as I usually do and for me that's my safety net is always knowing in the back of my mind what I'm spending what I'm saving what that looked like for this week and I remember there was one particular point I was like I don't know how much I've spent this week this gives me anxiety knowing full well I could afford it because I'd already budgeted for it and I knew what was going on and like we had these budgeting spreadsheets but I didn't know how that budgeting spreadsheet fit into my personal budget and I was like oh um I feel a bit anxious and I had to go away and like I looked up my budget and looked at my bank accounts and made sure I was all comfy and all happy. And I'm in the

very privileged position where it was all fine. But like even me, who's in a fine financial position now was a bit like, oh, that gave me the ick because I never talked about it. Like, why would I talk about my personal loan? I paid it off. Yeah. Yeah. That trauma kind of becomes a part of your money story, I guess. Yeah, exactly. And I don't think we address it for what it actually is. And that's trauma. And we need to get through that. So I guess in a roundabout way of answering this question, our answer isn't like do your budget and do your cash flow, which we would recommend to absolutely anyone. But I think you need to have a chat with someone about this situation, about the experience you've been through, because it was genuinely traumatic

and you're probably carrying a lot of the weight of that experience that you can probably let go of now. And if you are struggling with anything like that, we'll pop a link in the show notes to Beyond Blue. They're a really fantastic charity who do a lot of work in the mental health space, particularly around depression, anxiety and those kinds of things. They're a for profit and they do fantastic, fantastic work. So if you are struggling, please feel free to reach out to them. Yeah. And our friends at the National Debt Helpline, if you ever feel super stressed about money or you're in a bit of a pickle, please feel free to pick up the phone and have a chat to them. As we've said before, it's free financial counselling and they will

put you on track to be in the best possible position. But both of those resources are resources that I would personally reach out to if I found that I was finding it a little bit overwhelming. Perfect place to end it today. Ladies, let's rip into the boring but important stuff. Oh, I can't wait, G. The advice shared on She's on the Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or a financial decision. And we promise Victoria Devine and She's on the Money are authorised representatives of In Focus, Securities Australia,

Proprietary Limited, ABN, 47097797049, AFSL 236523. See you on Monday, guys. See you next week, guys.