She's On The Money - Hey Hun: What an MLM Million Dollar Earner Wants You to Know (Part 2)

Episode Date: December 27, 2024

We’re back with more jaw-dropping revelations from Emily Lynn Paulson, the million-dollar MLM insider who climbed to the top—only to reveal the truth hiding behind the glittering promises. In Part 2, Emily takes us deeper into the manipulative tactics MLMs use to hook you, from love bombing and trauma bonding to financial exploitation and cult-like control. Victoria Devine doesn’t hold back as they unpack the shocking psychology behind these schemes and how they blur the lines between business, friendships, and even faith. If you thought Part 1 was juicy, just wait till you hear this one! Learn more about Emily Lynn Paulson and her book Hey, Hun: Sales, Sisterhood, Supremacy, and the Other Lies Behind Multilevel Marketing here. Acknowledgement of Country By Natarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements. The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs.  Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN - 321649 27708,  AFSL - 451289.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello, my name is Natasha Nabanunga-Bamblett. I'm a proud Yorta Yorta, Kernai, Wolperi and Awadjeri woman. And before we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which this podcast is recorded on Awadjeri country, acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through. As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and the storytelling of you to make a difference for today and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it. She's on the money. She's on the money.

hello and welcome to she's on the money the podcast that's all about empowering you to make informed financial decisions, not emotional ones, and definitely not decisions based on hey-hun messages in your DMs. I'm Victoria Devine, finance expert, MLM exposer, and the person who's here to help you navigate all the sneaky traps designed to separate you from your hard-earned cash. Today is part two of our very special episode. We are chatting to Emily Lynn Paulson, an actual unicorn million-dollar earner in an MLM. If you haven't listened to part one yet, where she gave us a very cheeky behind the scenes look at the business side of MLMs. Hit pause my friend right now, head back and give it a listen. Trust me, you're going to want the

full story. But if you've already listened, stick around. Today we are going deeper. We're diving into the psychological tactics MLMs use to hook you, keep you, and then convince you that it's all your fault when things go sideways. It's time to pull back the curtains and get into the why behind the decisions people make when it comes to these schemes. So let's go. Let's flip on over to the psychology side of things because I feel like we're starting to delve into that. He said, she said. MLMs are designed to, I guess, make hitting that first rank basically effortless, like, and then they jump up and down and go, oh my God, you made it. Like, look how easy it is. This is so good. And you get that instant dopamine hit and it kind of keeps you hooked. Can you remember what

it felt like when you hit your first milestone. So you decided to sign up and you were like, all right, I could do this. How did you feel? You know, it was kind of double-edged because I signed up. And then as soon as I signed up again, I was totally ignorant. I didn't know what I was doing. I kind of ran with it. I met with a friend that night after I signed up and I was like, Hey, I bought this skincare stuff. Like, I don't know what I'm doing. And she's like, I'll do it with you so like she literally seemed like my first day right and so the next day there was a post on Facebook like outing me from my upline you know Emily signed up she started her business and she's already hit her first promotion and so here I am like like I felt a little cringe

that she put that out there without my permission and then I had all of these people all reps from the company posting underneath, like, congratulations, congratulations, congratulations, all these new friends, all these new followers. It's very intoxicating, right? It's like you said, it's that dopamine hit. And so it was like, oh, that was easy. I could do that again. Like I could do more of that. And then you start getting gifts. It's the love bombing just off the bat. It's actually insane because I don't think it's a secret. If you follow me on my personal Instagram, you know, I've signed up to an MLM under a fake name and I have been doing that. And that happened to me. I hit my first one and I was mortified that they're tagging me in these

things. One day I'll share who I was and what I joined under, but they fully love bomb you. And you mentioned a lot in the book, the intense love bombing that happens when someone joins an MLM. I guess that's a good example of it. You get constant praise and attention and some validation and that's really sexy and we want more of that. How did that level of affection impact you early on? And I guess, when did it start to feel a little bit less genuine? I mean, at first it feels genuine because, you know, the person I joined was someone from high school. I wasn't friends with her. We didn't know each other well, but then it was like, okay, she's someone I know. She's someone from my hometown. Like I kind of felt that instant kinship. And then by proximity,

you're spending a lot of time, whether it's across the Zoom screen or in a Facebook group, you're spending a lot of time in proximity with these people more than you're probably spending with people in your real life you know and you're really taught to share personal things and connect over personal things and how hard life is as mom and you know blah blah blah it's so it's kind of like trauma bonding really which is terrifying and it's a genuine tactic that they are using is trauma bonding yeah yeah and I think it also is by nature MLMs are mostly women you know it's like 85 to 90% women. And so women are more connected on an emotional level. And so when you already have that baked in to a financial transaction where people are making money off

of you and you're making money off of people, it's just, it's going to be exploited. And so when you're used to getting all this attention and you're on these top 10 lists and you're being asked to speak, and then maybe a new shiny penny rolls around, someone else comes in quick and makes their first promotion and gets a lot of attention, like the spotlight gets taken off of you. And so there's just automatic like claws coming out. There's automatic jealousy. You're being ranked publicly among other people all of the time. You're being put on top 10 lists by the company, by different team leaders all of the time. So it's just kind of a breeding ground for hostility really yeah yeah yeah yeah and I guess this love bombing and we just touched on trauma

bonding those are actually two tactics that are used by cults to keep people engaged and involved and consistently feeling like their cult is their home and you have said before that an MLM is like a cult like I guess a lot of people say that I say that lots of people do I want to know what is the most jaw-dropping I guess culty behavior that you saw and how it kind of messed with people's lives I mean I think the financial exploitation we've talked about there's a lot of financial exploitation but you know and like the emotional exploitation with friendship love bombing I think the worst in my opinion is the like you touched on a little bit the spiritual manipulation religious manipulation and I thankfully I wasn't in a lot of that thankfully

my my upline you know nobody was super religious in my like team but I knew people you know cross line or whatever who I did you know events with who were very manipulated who were like forced to go to a different church who they had to pray before events and so it throws in this extra layer of not only are you not succeeding because you're not working hard enough but you're also not devoted enough to Jesus or, you know, you're not thankful enough, you know, grateful enough to God. And that's, I think, really messed up in a lot of ways. Yeah. And that's what kind of scares me as well, because you are blurring the lines between your spiritual life, your home life, your work life, that then when you decide to leave, you're left absolutely high and dry immediately. You've

gone from having what I would say, you know, regardless of the fact that a lot of it was not genuine, you go from feeling very supported to being completely isolated and on your own. So a lot of people, they know they want to leave, but they don't want to leave because they don't want to lose that connection. They don't want to lose their friends or their so-called friends. And then to add religion to that, like, what are you going to do? Leave your religion? Like that to me is absolutely insane. How do multi-level marketing businesses, I guess, use dopamine hits? Because obviously there's lots of them built in, like the people that run multi-level marketing businesses through all of my research, I've realized they're not skincare experts like Monet, right? Good

example. They do haircare and they do skincare. The founders of Monet are not haircare or skincare people at all. In fact, they have a very rich history in network marketing and multi-level marketing business building. And they have just seen that hair care and skincare is incredibly popular with the women that are the best victims. And so I think we might go down that route. Let's create a hair care skincare line with all of these wild things that we can say about them that no one can really validate. And then we are going to recruit all of these women underneath. But to keep them involved, we actually need to give them consistent gratification and consistent dopamine hits. And I feel like it's quite clear that through their model, they use it to hook you like an addiction. And you've spoken about this in your book. How does their structure keep you chasing that next high? Yeah, because they have hierarchy built in everywhere. You know, not only you join an upline who then is like your master who you have to take information from and distill it down and then recruit other people and tell them, you know, like a baby bird, you've got to feed them the information. So you've got this hierarchy, but then there's different levels. And, you know, you promote to meet these levels. And every time you get there, there's some sort of prize. It's like a constant game of like Candy Crush or something.

here. And I love Candy Crush. I would have been the worst. I'm so glad. Honestly, Emily, I see so much of me in you. Like I just go, you know what, if someone had given me that opportunity and I didn't know any better, I would have loved it. It's like gamification. I would have been all over it. It is. It's like analog gamification. That's exactly what it is, where they send you little gifts. And just when you start to feel a little bit like, oh, my sales aren't good. They're like, we're going to have a sale this month. And, you know you get a free whatever for every one of these that you sell and it's just constantly built in so you have something to look forward to and they plan the convention

is six months in advance and you have to start like making your way to advancing to earn certain gifts at convention they just make it a year-long thing and then during the month there's different goals you know every month you have to read up to the same title like it starts over every month it's not like you get to a rank and then you're there. You have to do it every month. It's just a constant hamster wheel. And the higher you climb from what I can see, the more pressure you have on you to spend like first class flights, assistance, this idea of retiring your husband that everyone wants to talk about. How did projecting that lifestyle keep you stuck even when I guess it wasn't financially sustainable? Yeah. I mean, that's one thing when people ask like about the

car and how the car is not really free. You actually have to buy the car, right? The free car. Yeah. And it has to be white. It has to be a white Range Rover. Absolutely. And people have asked me like, well, why get it then? If it's such a financial drain, why get it? Well, can you imagine, you know, you see all over social media, like so-and-so earned her Lexus and then you're not driving the car. So it's almost like you're forced, you're shamed into spending and you don't want your downline thinking like, well, why are you flying in coach when so-and-so was flying in first class or why are you doing this when she's doing this it's the comparison where you have to look like this is aspirational and if you don't earn the trip and you're not

there well your team's not gonna feel motivated to want to try and earn it and so you do feel pressured to buy stuff and to fit in and have the shoes that kind of match everybody else and and that's why when people say like oh well you know what what did you do with all the money it's like, it was constantly going back in. The more you made, the more you were expected to spend all of the time. And even if it wasn't overt, it was between the lines. You know, what gifts are you going to give your people who promote to level five? What retreat are you going to take your team on? And if you're not doing it, well, why is someone going to want to be on your team? It's a lot of pressure, it sounds like. We're going to take a really quick break,

but don't go anywhere because I've got so many more juicy questions. All right, we are back. And I feel like you were thankfully, also not thankfully, like I'm glad that you made it to the top so that we got you fighting the good fight against multi-level marketing businesses now. But you've said that a lot of consultants are often presenting a life of success that's a little bit more like illusion rather than reality. I want to know, what's the wildest thing you've seen someone do? I feel like you were in a lucky position where you had the income coming in so like if you were spending it okay but like what did you see someone do to kind of like fake the dream to keep it alive yeah I mean I think one of the cringiest

things was something that a lot of people and everyone did this is like you pose next to your uplines lexus right so I was like this is what my upline earned it's like well you haven't earned it like what are you talking about you know it's this aspirational thing and then also the posting of paychecks. I'm sure you've seen tons of that where they're like, oh, I got my monthly check or whatever. And then it's X'd out. Yeah. I saw one the other day. Actually, I forgot to screenshot it. And then when I went back, they'd removed it because I have an account where I follow all the MLM girlies just to keep up with the goss. And one girl had done it, but she clearly moved her photo. So the X's were not in the right spot. And she's like,

the caption was, oh my God, I got my monthly paycheck. I'm so grateful for whatever. I don't even care. But it was $23.40. And I was like, oh, that's embarrassing. Yeah. Yeah. It'll be like the right number of numbers, but they'll cover up where the decimal point is or whatever. So it looks like way more. A hundred percent. And even if it was like, even if it was a thousand dollars, like again, subtract everything they're spending, which is probably close to a thousand dollars taxes. Like how much did they spend to go on that trip? It never accounts for that. But the trip was free, Emily. They earned that trip. Which, and then they get to pay for it at the end of the year, right? It's added as income. That's

the other thing that, of course, I didn't know, why would I? But when you get to the end of the year and you get your 1099 statement, and it's like, you know, you have your money that you actually earned dollars. And then at the end, it's like, you know, whatever for Louis Vuitton bag. And that's added as income. And that happens in Australia too when we get our like tax statements because they do give you a tax statement because surprise, surprise, it's actually not your own business because they have to issue you with your own tax statement because they've done all of their maths in the background and you have like your non-monetary income that needs to be disclosed. And if you've been gifted anything. And you don't get to write it off. Exactly.

They already wrote it off. You don't get to write it off. you just have to pay tax on that quote income that you achieved and it's not actually income. So you're paying for something that you thought was free. Yeah. Is it great to get a purse? Sure. Can you pay your rent with that? No. So there's a lot of people who they end up getting pushed over the threshold of having to file quarterly taxes in the US. It's over a certain amount you have to file quarterly. And they didn't know that because they were like making a couple hundred bucks a month. But because they went on this trip that was added as income, then they get this $10,000

fine from the IRS because they didn't file quarterly taxes. And I heard this story over and over and over because how would you know? But the MLM is not going to tell you that because that's not sexy. And that's your problem. Remember, it's your business. You need to work out your own taxes. That's not their responsibility. That is all honestly outrageous. but one of the most outrageous things that I read in your book, I nearly threw it across the room, Emily. Oh my Lord. I like put it down in bed and I looked at my husband and I was like, you're not going to believe this. And he was like, all right, lay it on me. What is it? In your book, you talk about your cancer diagnosis and then how the multi-level marketing business

encouraged you to use that as a selling point. That is a deeply personal and very vulnerable time to be going through for them to be like, great sales, like fantastic selling point. Can you walk us through what happened and how that made you feel? Because that was a lot. Yeah. I think again, this is something that's preemptively trained into you, like a lot of things, just like how they'll say, Oh, you'll have a lot of haters. And you'll get a lot of people saying no to you. And here's all the talking points like preemptive, right? You are from the beginning. Again, you're doing all that love bombing, you're telling you like deeply personal stories, you're talking about your trials and tribulations. And when you go to events,

you hear people sob stories, it's the rags to riches, it's the pain to profit, right? Those are the stories you always hear. And so this is just cooked into your brain. And so when something troubling comes up, like when someone, you know, their husband, who's a firefighter dies in a fire, well, the company is right on that to be like, oh gosh, you know, you really need the money right now. You know, you could use this as a way to earn money. I know, but it sounds like, oh yeah, you're right. I have my own business. This would be a good way to help. It's really hard to explain when you're out of it because that's one of those things people are like well that's really gross I'm like yeah it is and it seems like the most natural thing to do when that is the sea you're

swimming in when you are around all of this quote-unquote charity again the air quotes that's not charitable it feels like you're doing a very good thing it's actually insane to me that they literally take advantage of every situation like you're right maybe you did need some money during that period of time. But the way that they manipulate that, I have seen it time and time again here in Australia. Like, oh, it actually, yeah, I did want to throw your book. I'm so sorry. Like, I wouldn't have heard it, but like, I wanted to throw it across the room and be like, this is ridiculous. Like the fact that this was normal and that you've exposed it, right? That's so fantastic, but it's still going on. And they're like, I'm sure you've been absolutely outcast.

You've been like, you've been kicked out of the church of MLMs, right? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. So talk to me about that process because I feel like the second you start being one of the quote haters, you like went from being their queen to, I would say being exiled and they wanted to put you on an island in the middle of the Pacific and never hear from you again. What was that like?

So my process was kind of interesting because it was 2019 where I was like, ooh, where I I'm really, you know, again, I'd had my team do like profit loss statements and where I got to the point where I'm like, no, all of these people are doing the work and they are not having the success that I had had. And I knew it was a system. Right. So I was like, I'm turning everything off. I'm not selling anymore. I'm just going to slowly back away. So I was very transparent with my upline who brought me in. Like, you know what? I love you. Thank you for this opportunity. I'm just I'm not going to do this anymore and I kind of thought I would like silently collect a check until it dissolved and went away and then COVID happened and I mean the off the wall like the predatory posts and comments and trying to use the pandemic to recruit people was so gross to me again I sold nothing did nothing and yet I still hit the top rank of the company that year

And that's when I was like, this system is so rigged. This is so messed up. And I quit. So by that time, I had been so off the radar for so long. It really wasn't a huge surprise to anyone that I fully terminated. But when my book announcement came out... Oh, they would have rioted. It was... No, I had messages and calls like, I can't believe you're going to talk about this. Are you going to talk about me? There were a lot of people going on the offense like, you're not going to tell about this and about this and about this. And I'm very afraid of like what I was going to say. So that's really when the clause came out where it was like, you know, you did all of this stuff and now you're going to profit off it with a book or

whatever, you know, it's like, yeah, I am a hundred percent. Yeah. So anyway, that's really when the clause came out. So I think by the time I was like brave enough to talk about it, I had been out much longer than I was out if that makes sense like I backed away for so long and I think that was an advantage to me and I that's the number one thing I do tell other people it's like okay you made the realization obviously not everyone can just immediately quit you know if they're making money you know figure out an exit strategy and slowly back away you know have a conversation with the people on your team stop posting stop promoting and you know you can kind of get out that way. And the more you back away, and I think COVID helps in this situation too,

that I couldn't go to conventions. I couldn't be around people. I couldn't be indoctrinated. Yeah. That's pretty lucky. Yeah. When you take yourself out of that bubble, you really can start to see a lot of realizations come to the surface when that happens too. It's absolutely insane to me. Like it drives me nuts because I think the position that I'm sitting in, I just want the best for women. And I think we also want the best for ourselves. And that's why we get involved in these things because it sounded like a great opportunity at the time. And realizing that it's not the opportunity you thought it was can be incredibly confronting. And I'm sure it was. But what's

something that you would tell someone who's still involved in an MLM? Because I know they're going to listen. I can't wait. Hi, babies. I know you're all watching on. I have had a plethora of them send me messages being like, you're going to hear from head office. You're going to get a cease and assist. You're going to get sued. And I'm like, okay, let's go. For what? For what? Yeah. What would you say? Yeah. What I usually tell people is I say, you know, slowly, you know, do a profit loss statement. That's the first thing I tell people to do. And all of your expenses, really write down all of the time that you're working and do some math, do a little bit of math, figure out what you're making per hour. And that for a lot of people, that is enough. They're like, oh my God,

this is not worth my time. What am I doing? And then it's usually like, how do I tell my upline? You know? And again, like, just be honest. I'm not making any money. I don't care if it's my fault. I don't care if you tell me it's my fault. A lot of it's just unlearning the things you've been told and, and asking yourself, like, why do I believe this? Who told me this? And who is benefiting from this? Right? Because if your upline wants you to stay in and they're encouraging you to stay in. What's the reason? Do they really believe in you? Do they really want the best for you? Or are they making money off of you? They're making money off of you. So go to outside sources, really do the math, like get actual critical thinking skills and

think about what you're doing. That drives me insane. Yeah. And I think the sunk cost fallacy is one thing people are, whether it's friends, time, or money. I put so much into this. How can I leave now? And you just do. You just do. Well, you do. And I get that because you don't want to just go, oh, well, that was all a waste. You want to make the most of it, but you're throwing good money after bad. And something that my dad told me once, he said, the sooner you get off the train, the cheaper the return ride home. And I think that that is a really good analogy to go, all right, well, the longer you stay on the train, the more it's going to cost you to come back home. And I think that that's

a really important thing to remember. I have taken up a lot of your time, Emily. Thank you so much for chatting with us today, sharing your story. It's been really fun, really pervy, but also kind of really concerning. Your honesty and insight, honestly, eye-opening. And not to mention, it is so important for anyone who's ever been, I guess, drawn into the MLM world, or you know someone that has, I feel like we all know someone who's doing MLM. I get so many messages and I'm sure you do of like, oh my God, Victoria, you're never going to believe this. My cousin signed up and I just know Christmas is going to be so awkward now. And you're just like, oh, I feel for you, but it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thanks, Victoria. Of course. For anyone listening, Emily's book, Hey Hun, Sales, Sisterhood and Supremacy and the other lies behind multi-level marketing is a must read just don't throw it at your husband it dives even deeper into her experiences and breaks down the truth behind these business models i'm going to put a link in our show notes so that you can check it out and if you know someone who needs to hear this i would love it if you shared it with them let's keep saving women from these dodgy schemes and empowering them with the truth the advice shared on she's on the money is general in nature and does not consider your

individual circumstances she's on the money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision if you do choose to buy a financial product read the pds tmd and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN 321 649 27708 AFSL 451 289.