She's On The Money - How To Get People To Take You Seriously With Tori Dunlap

Episode Date: November 7, 2023

We are so excited to bring you a special episode from NYC! After receiving countless messages begging us to speak with Tori Dunlap from Her First 100k and the Financial Feminist, we managed to track her down! Tori is known for her no-nonsense authentic approach to helpign women, from all walks of life, become empowered to master their money and build a life that they love. She'll teach you how to advocate yourself to get your finances on track, and once that is sorted, most of everything else will fall into place. The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs.  Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN - 321649 27708,  AFSL - 451289.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello, my name is Natasha Nabanunga-Bamblett. I'm a proud Yorta Yorta, Kernai, Wolperi and Awadjeri woman. And before we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which this podcast is recorded on Awadjeri country, acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through. As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and the storytelling of you to make a difference for today and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it. She's on the money.

She's on the money. Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. I am super excited about our guest for this week, and I know you guys are going to be too, as she was highly requested. Honestly, you were the most requested one, don't tell anybody else. Tori Dunlap is a money expert. She is the CEO and founder of Her First 100K, a New York Times bestselling author for her book, Financial Feminist, host of the number one podcast for women in the US, Financial Feminist, and because she hasn't done enough, was named a Forbes 30 under 30. Tori has centered her career around her passion for women taking control of their

finances. She wants to break down the stigma around men overseeing finances in a household and empower women to master their money and build a life that they love. Tori. Hi. Welcome to She's on the Money. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. I am also so excited to have you. We were just talking off air. You're technically Victoria. I'm technically Victoria. My nickname is Tori. Your nickname is Tori. My team were actually laughing because I also have a podcast. You have a podcast. I wrote a book. You wrote a book.

You're the cooler version of me. You're the Australian, hotter, cooler version of me. No, no, no. Like that doesn't even count. But like, I'm like the small fish Australian version. And I'm always like, holy grail, Tori Dunlap. I'm so excited for this. No, I have heard so many amazing things about your show.

Folks who listen to Financial Feminist also listen to She's On The Money and vice versa. So I'm just really excited to be here. So thanks for having me. Me too. We had like a podcast deep dive with a team from iHeart a little while ago. And they did this thing called like podcast neighborhoods. and they like show you where your listeners live like not physically but like in other podcast land and yours and mine had a really beautiful intersect but when I put it out to the community I was like

I'm going to the US who do you want me to get in touch with who do you want me to interview and I shouldn't have even bothered asking because 90% of the answers were like Tori Dunlap her first 100k the girl who does financial feminist and I was like they're all the same person guys have some diversity. But to say my community are obsessed with you is an understatement. So for those of you who maybe haven't heard of Her First 100K, why did you start it? Tell me about you. Who are you? What do you do? Why do you do it, my friend? Sure. So I graduated college in 2016 and I was, you know, majored in marketing and theater. And the plan was to work my way up the corporate ladder as a social media marketer. I was going to stomp the pavement and have a cute

little briefcase and wear a pencil skirt. And that's how I know it's a fantasy is I've never worn a pencil skirt in my life. And they're so uncomfortable as someone who has, you don't want this. Oh, they're terrible. Yeah. And that was the image I had for myself as I think a lot of women in their twenties do is like, I'm going to take on the world. I'm going to take on this city. And then I got into my first corporate job and was like, no, this is awful. I don't want to do this. I don't want to make some straight white man I don't respect who's already rich, even richer. I don't want to have to sit at a desk even if my work's already done. And it was just like the rose-colored goggles came off really quick.

Of course, we know in the United States that not soon after I graduated college, we had a presidential election that did not go, I think, as a lot of us expected it to go. So I'm 22, and I'm coming into adulthood or really into womanhood in a very different country than I expect. And I'm starting to ask myself the kind of questions like, yeah, what kind of person are you? What do you stand for? And honestly, the election of Donald Trump kind of radicalized me. And I was the friend all of my friends were coming to for financial advice and guidance. I had a really good financial education from my parents, and I just thought that was normal because I didn't know anything different. I thought everybody knows not to overspend on credit cards.

Everybody knows how to save money. Everybody knows how to navigate this financial system. And of course, I realized very quickly that that wasn't the case, especially wasn't the case for women. So I'm running this nine-to-five job in marketing, and then I start a blog in 2016 on the side that later becomes Her First 100K. I'm talking about money, educating women about money. I start doing financial coaching.

And then in 2019, based on the name, Her First 100K was my own 100K journey, me attempting to save $100,000 at age 25. I successfully achieved that goal about four years ago, almost to the day. Went to Europe to celebrate. I got the call for Good Morning America to be on one of two very, very big, sexy, like, morning shows that are just, like, career-making. So got the call for GMA at a pub in London. Run. Flew home.

Did the interview. Quit my job three weeks later and have never looked back. And you did the kind intro and bio of me, but we're now a community of over four million people. We have a podcast. We have a book. we fight the patriarchy by making women rich. We have a team of 15 people, 15 people. It's crazy. And it's just my life's work. That's what I believe I was put on this earth to do is educate women about money, but also talk about how money affects women differently. Because the truth is,

is like, I don't think we have any sort of equality for any marginalized group until we have financial equality. And in addition, a financial education in a capitalist disenfranchised system, that is your best form of protest is understanding money, having financial standing, a financial foundation. That is the way we get ahead as women. If you're a person of color, if you're a member of the LGBTQ community, if you're disabled, like if you're a member of a marginalized group, having money means having choices. It means having freedom. And it means that you get to show up in a disenfranchised system as the fullest version of yourself and the fullest version in your community. So that's what I believe I was put on this earth to do is

fight for women's financial rights. And the way you talk about it, I am a thousand percent convinced not one person ever is going to doubt that. You are obviously insanely impressive. But one question I really like asking people when I talk to them, especially if I, you know, really admire what they do is, are you proud of what you do? Like, have you had time to sit down and be like, damn, girl, I did that. Like, are you? What does that look like? I love that question. I will be honest with you and I imagine you feel very similar it's always like what's next like it's like okay cool I did that and then you know I take maybe like an evening or sometimes even a couple days to like celebrate it but then I'm always like what's next which I feel like is not the

healthiest thing to do no but I can completely resonate with that like I've got stuff to do yeah like we got the New York Times which like I worked so hard for and our team worked so hard for like I don't think I've ever pushed myself harder to get anything and then I did it and I felt so good but like your life doesn't change necessarily like yes you get to say like I'm a New York Times bestseller and like that is something I get to say for the rest of my life and like in theory it increases book sales but like my mom literally called me and she was like so like what does that mean and I'm like I get a sticker on the book and like I get this like really big accomplishment but it doesn't like guarantee like you know more money or more

opportunities. It's just kind of like, you have to find fulfillment for yourself. And I've learned over the past couple of years, especially as like my goalpost of success kept moving that I was like, Oh, unless I sit and be excited about all of this, it's never going to feel like enough. That was a really philosophical answer to a very easy question. But yes, I feel very accomplished. I feel very accomplished of our team. And most of all, as cheesy as it sounds like we get messages now probably every five minutes from a woman somewhere that is you know I paid off my credit card debt I negotiated a 20% raise I just have my first a thousand dollars in my emergency fund you know the best part of it is it's always a comma and then after it's and I feel

so much more confident in every aspect of my life now and like that's the feeling I want for every single woman. I want her to show up as her fullest version of herself in any space, in any relationship, in any format, because she doesn't have to say yes if she doesn't want to say yes, and she doesn't have to say no if she doesn't want to say no. And she also can show up bigger in every aspect of her life knowing that she's financially taken care of. I'm so excited about that. Like exactly the same. And I feel like you and I are very on the same page when it comes to that because in this space like you might do really cool things and you said your mom called you and said what does that mean one of my family members called me and said I didn't realize you

were so rich when I got named one of the Forbes 30 under 30 because like they didn't know enough about Forbes and they thought that I was on the rich list and I was like I wish I was on the rich list because obviously Forbes is quite American and in Australia it's not as big so when I got named on that I was like this is a slay for me but like I'm really sorry it does not mean I am a trillionaire. So sorry. But I really resonate with that. And I think that in our space, one of the reasons why that happens is there is still more work to do. There are still more women that aren't financially literate and deserve to be. And I think you can't just look at one thing and be like, oh, well, I've made it. Well, we haven't because like, I would love to think,

and I'm sure you're very similar. Like my job will be done when I am redundant and people are like, Victoria, why are you talking about financial literacy? We all have financial literacy. That is so dumb like I would love people to think that my job wasn't necessary and I just think it is so necessary because there are still people that need help and as you said before all of those communities that slip through the cracks they need the voice that you have and you do it so well do you cry a lot when you get those messages because like I can't deal with them it's very very kind we got one it's probably about two months ago now we get them so frequently it's just so kind this one really hit me though it was like i am 18 i was houseless it was not even

thinking about college for the first time i like have a roof over my head i have like something to live for like i can't even get through without like getting a little choked up but like i have something to live for now and I was just like okay like it was woof like wow I love it that's why you do it that one was especially just like hit me where it hurt but yeah it's like what I researched over and over for my book and I actually just got an off another interview where we talked about this is it's like there's so many aspects of our world like money aside finance aside that are just so committed to women depriving themselves, depleting themselves, being the like skeleton version of themselves in order for other people to be comfortable. And I both mean

that in an altruistic way of like, we sacrifice so much so that other people can have it, but also like in the more manipulative way, like women are shrinking or made to be small so that the patriarchy can stand. And I want a world where every single person, but especially every single woman, has joy and pleasure and ease and stability and safety. And that's what money can buy you. I say this in my book, but there's this narrative that money can't buy you happiness. Money can buy you happiness. It can buy you all of those things. It can buy you safety and a clean safe apartment and a good car that isn't going to break down on you and a vacation to recharge and an escape from a job that deprives you like money can buy you happiness and these

narratives exist to make you believe that you are not worthy of all of the beautiful things in life all of the beautiful joyful things and in addition when you are stable and safe and content you get to then change the status quo and the narrative for everybody else. This whole world exists in this patriarchal capitalist way to deprive ourselves of any joy or, again, like limit the fullest versions of ourselves to make other people comfortable, to fit into society's version of ourselves and these messages are the coolest thing for me because again it shows it's like when you get your financial shit together everything else opens up for you and that's what's most exciting because i look at you know you are massive on tiktok adore like the fact that

you show up so consistently like girl that is a feat in itself like i cannot i am so envious when I look at your content, I'm like, this woman, she is committed. Oh, it's exhausting. But that's a whole other conversation. Oh, I can imagine. I do like one TikTok a month and I'm like, over and out, babes. Bye. But what you do so well is advocate for women, but also teach women to advocate for themselves. And there's a quote that I love and I say all the time in my community, in my community are so bored of me saying it but like a rising tide lifts all ships and you do this so well and I feel like for the longest time mediocre middle-aged white men have had their audacity and their audacity has meant that we don't have a voice and we don't have a place and

when we finally realize that we probably should we don't know how to advocate for ourselves or stand up or even stand up for those around us, where do we start? What do we do? I think in terms of just personal finance in general, there's a reason I laid my book out like this. The first chapter of my book, Financial Feminist, is about the emotions of money. Because a lot of our colleagues literally just start with like, what's the budgeting method? Or like, learn how to set financial goals. And like, those things are helpful, but they can't happen until you do some emotional unpacking. Like money is not about math. I wish more people understood this because again, my not so conspiracy conspiracy theory is that women have been told

that money is about math. But we were also told at least in the United States growing up as women that like girls were bad at math and that boys were good at math. Oh, of course. Women are the worst at math according to our education system as well. Right. So I think that's mostly a narrative that we're told. And then we're also told that personal finance is about Excel spreadsheets and mathematical equations. And it's actually not. It's about your emotions. It's about your psychology. It's about how you feel. If you can understand what your brain and body do before you make a purchase, if you can understand what your brain and body do before making some sort of financial decision, you can start to unpack a lot of how to be better with money. But only when you

start to figure out, this is my mindset around money. This is what I've been believing about money. Just like we were talking about before. One of the narratives I talk about in the first chapter is it's like, you've been told that money can't buy you happiness. You've also been told that you shouldn't talk about money. Why have you been told you shouldn't talk about money? To keep you underpaid and overworked. Like that's it. That's why we don't talk about money. We are more likely statistically to talk about sex, death, politics, religion, any other uncomfortable topic before we'll talk about money. And the reason behind all of that is it's rooted in shame. It's rooted in shame. It's rooted in fear. It's rooted in anxiety. It's in judgment, as opposed

to, like I was saying before, the joy and the stability and the ease and the safety. So the first thing you really have to do is you have to start understanding what narratives am I believing about money? What narratives am I believing about the word rich? What narratives Am I believing about my ability to make money or my ability to manage my money on my own? And the exercise I give in the book is to think about the first money memory you have. What is the first time you remember thinking about money?

For me, I was a theater kid, right? I was saving my quarters in an Altoids tin to like go see Annie the musical. Because my mom told me if I wanted to go, I needed to save my money. That's also such a wholesome musical to want to see. It's so, oh, I loved Annie. That was my dream was to like be an Annie someday.

So the Altoids tin, it got filled? Yes, it got filled, but here's the deal. It was quarters and pennies and a ticket probably cost 25 bucks and I did not have that. My parents were going to pay the whole time. Like I was five. I had no like earned income source,

but I saved my money because I wanted it, right? And so I was being taught by my parents, if you want something, you have to save for it. And like, that's how this goes. When I ask people what their first money memory is, and I would love to hear yours, most of them are not as positive, right? It is, I showed up at school and realized I didn't have enough money for school lunch. Or I saw my parents fight about money.

Or my first money memory was realizing we just didn't have any of it. And what sort of beliefs then did you start to build around money based on how your parents managed money, based on the behaviors and the outlook of your childhood growing up, right? I had another person who told me, oh, well, you know, we would go over to my friend's house and they were really, really rich, but they were terrible people. And so I thought rich people are terrible people, like people who have money are bad people, like money makes you a bad person. So that's the start. And it's really messy, right? Like feels like therapy. like it's it does and it's overwhelming because it means admitting something about yourself we talk about it all the time in our community when I started my podcast I literally started it because I had a Facebook group and I really wanted the information out there because people as you know they always start with the first same few questions and I was like you know what if I just do 12 recordings I will have mastered it Tori I would have done it like that's all I'll ever need

500 episodes later, I'm like still being like, I still have more shit to talk about. But my first episode was called Money Stories. And you need to understand where you came from and what your money story is, what you think, you feel, you act, you behave around money, because that wasn't your fault. Like you grew up around money with these preconceived ideas of how they worked and what they looked like, because that's what was ingrained in you. And the second you realize that that defines your current thought pattern but the beautiful thing about money stories is you can create your own from here like we can change it we can do whatever we want to do like that's my favorite thing and when I think about money I had the very beautiful experience of having a dad who

was an accountant he loved telling us about money and budgeting and what that meant but also I was really bad with money because sometimes even with the best support around you you're not ready to hear it. Do you think I wanted my accountant dad to run my first job? I was like, why are you telling me dad to save 10% of my income always? And then it'll compound over time. Ew, don't you realize I have to go to the movies? Like, are you not understanding that after school at four o'clock, the girls from my school are going to go to McDonald's. They're going to get some ice cream. Then they're going to walk to the movies. I need to be involved in that. Don't you understand? And so I feel like it's such a cool thing to be able to reflect on it. But I think that so many

people, they judge themselves and then define themselves by what they thought a money belief and behavior was. When in reality, like if you have limiting beliefs about money, we can fix them. But if you have them and you hold on to them, we can't actually create the life you deserve. Like you deserve so much more. Like, and I feel like I just always want to scoop up my community and be like, you deserve so much more and I want to give it to you. But first, you've got to take the first step. Like, I can't pull your head out of the sand for you. You've got to do it. How do we pull our heads out of the sand? What do we do? Like, you know, what's the first step for standing up and being like, no, actually, Tori, you're right. I do deserve more. How do

we do that? Because I don't have, or I do, let's be honest, and I think you've got it too. I definitely have the audacity of a mediocre middle-aged white man. And when I step into issues. They fit really well. I'm going to keep doing it. But how does everybody else do that when that is really scary? It's really funny you say pull your head out of the sand because after chapter one, chapter two is what I call the ostrich effect, which is bury your head in the sand. I think your problems don't exist. What? Is that a thing? Do ostriches bury their heads in the sand? We don't have ostriches. Actually, they don't. That's a whole other thing. But they were believed to, which is why we call it the ostrich effect. I actually do start, I think,

chapter two with facts about ostriches. I literally, I'm like, hi, before we get into the rest of this chapter, we're going to talk about ostriches have two stomachs. Do you know that? No, I didn't. Something I learned researching my book. You think it's a finance book? Nah, it's an ostrich book. I'm here for it. I love animals and money. You're selling me on this. But yeah, actually that's a whole other thing. Cause I actually did Google. Cause I was curious, do ostriches bury their head in the sand? And there was like this whole like academic article where it's like many, many years, they were believed to have buried their head. They actually don't. Anyway, so they call it the ostrich effect, at least in the United States with personal

finance. It's like bury your head in the sand, act like your problems don't exist. The good thing about that, it temporarily feels good because you're just like, I will handle that later. Investing, too complicated. I'll learn it later. Paying off my debt, too full of shame and fear, and I don't want to log into my debt, so I'll do that later. We see this, especially again, in television shows. I mentioned this also in my book of like Nick from New Girl. He has a box of bills in his closet. Andy and April from Parks and Recreation have all of their bills frozen in a freezer. Like this is a very common trope because I think a lot of people deal with this. So the ostrich effect, totally normal because again, the narrative that you've been taught is shame.

Shame about your money. You should feel ashamed of your past choices. You should feel ashamed that you don't know more about money. And so rather than make a decision that might be wrong, we're going to make no decision at all. And I see this so many times with women is we get in this analysis paralysis. We feel like we need to make the perfect choice. So we either spend years researching because it gives us the feeling of doing something. We're taking steps, right? It's like, I just need to Google this one more thing. And then when I've done that, I will make the decision. But then suddenly you're three hours into a Google rabbit hole. So the analysis paralysis this is real. And then also, again, just the shame. So the first thing we have to do to actually

like start doing actionable things about our money is get comfortable being uncomfortable. And again, this is not about math. It's about your emotions. It's about releasing any shame and judgment and saying, you know what? I'm going to look at this like I'm an anthropologist in my own life. Oh, interesting. I bought that pair of shoes I didn't need and didn't want because I had a terrible day at work. Interesting. That's it. You are just observing your behavior and observing what's going on without any sort of emotion loaded into it. No judgment, no shame, no fear, no anxiety. Same thing with your debt. You're literally going to start totaling your accounts. Where does the debt live? What is the interest rate? How much debt do I have? You can do this

for all of your credit cards, your student loans, your mortgage. If you have one, that's a whole other conversation i don't know how it is in australia you can't buy a house here oh no you can't buy a house here i did a presentation the other day tori you would have heard of the like avocado fallacy right where like yeah the avocado toast oh yeah if you buy less avocado toast you're going to be able to afford a house and i did this like presentation at a university about like the property market and i was like sit down let's go back to 1975 in 1975 you could buy a house and it was worth four times your annual income. Today in Australia to buy a house, it is 27 times your annual income. If our incomes had kept up with inflation in Australia, your average Australian

income would be $162,000. But it is not my friend. The average Australian income is $65,000. And y'all out here thinking that we can buy property. We can't buy property because the economy is cooked. So the biggest thing is like starting to get comfortable being uncomfortable of listing out your debt, listing out if you do have savings, where does that live? And then you can start making a plan. We can't make a plan till we know the lay of the land. Yes, I'm a poet, didn't even know it, but like we can't start putting a budget together. We can't start setting goals until we've worked through our emotions, number one, and started to understand that and started to understand the narratives we've been believing about money. And then two, we have to understand what is our

current financial picture, even if it's messy, even if it's really anxiety-inducing, because you can't start making steps forward until you know what's going on. So listing out your debts, listing out your accounts, listing out your interest rates. If you don't know your interest rate, that's a great place to start. Start calling people, look at your terms and conditions. You have to understand how all of this works before we can then start making decisions about it. I agree. I just feel like that's the most empowering thing you can do. And the second you start doing that you get really inquisitive and like you start looking at things and you start talking to your girlfriends like you might be talking to your girlfriends or work about it

and you're like oh this is interesting and you're right it's picking up that piece and going no judgment no shame no anything just going well that's interesting actually that really helps me to understand a little bit more about me and like you're the best person to understand the most about you and you deserve to know about you so let's keep doing that I feel like it's the same and like everybody, even people like you have probably gone through that where you're like, far out, I didn't realize I made that money decision because of this emotion or this outcome or how that works. And I think that by just talking about it, even just consuming content online that's more relative, like you don't have to go straight out and start talking about your

income to people if that makes you uncomfortable. Like start small, but start stepping in the right direction because money shouldn't be something that we feel ashamed to talk about. I look at not just your content, but content of American creators. And I'm always in awe because I'm always like, oh my gosh, the confidence they have, like, and the way that they often support each other is so crazy cool. And in Australia, we have this thing called tall poppy syndrome, where, you know, the second someone's really successful, they feel like, okay, now we're going to cut you down. Like it's as though in Australia, and I'm going to get into trouble for saying this, but I also don't really care. It's almost like people want you to do well,

but they never want you to do better than them. And the second that you look like you're doing better than them, well, it's time to rip them to shreds. Now, I have seen it time and time again in comment sections of people being like, what would you know? How do you do this? What does that look like? How do you as a woman in a country like the USA deal with this? Because I feel like your political system, your, you know, everything system is working so hard against your success. How does tall poppy syndrome affect you? How are you overcoming that? How do we seek inspiration from that? It's like women supporting women, but then it's like the government against the women. How do you deal with this? How do you still not go to sleep every night and cry?

Y'all can't see me, but I'm literally like, my neck is breaking from just like nodding my head emphatically. So many things here. First, like we were talking about before, society is built so that women hate themselves. I mean, that makes a lot of people a lot of money. So like this story checks out. We want to talk about just like the diet industry is a multi-billion dollar industry. That's a women's Roman empire. I'm convinced. Oh, totally. And it's selling you on a complete myth. Diets don't work. We know this. 98, 99% of diets don't work because the more you tell me I can't have fried chicken, the more I want fried chicken. That doesn't work. And deprivation does not work. It's not about willpower. It's not about how badly you want it.

It's literal psychology. It does not work. And that's a perfect example of we're sold this lie that you need to be as thin as possible. You need to take up the least amount of space possible and hate yourself doing it. Cut out everything that brings you joy. Cut out anything that makes you happy and deprive yourself in order to get this thing that you think you really want, but you don't want it. You've just been told you should want it. Perfect example of like what's going on with every single industry, with every single space is when you show up as the fullest version of yourself, inevitably what happens is the patriarchy feels threatened by you. Again, I'm going to sound like a broken record. I talk about this in my book.

even in childhood, like if we bring it really, really far back, I did a lot of research around the sort of narratives or sort of like child rearing that we do. And I'm going to use the gender binary here for ease, but like for boys and for girls, boys, and even the toys they are given are taught self-reliance. They're taught innovation. They're taught how to build, right? Like Legos, trucks, these are what we give boys. We are telling them that their value to society is in how they're contributing in terms of their brains, right? They're smart, they're, again, self-actualized.

How can you show up, again, as the biggest version of yourself? And that's what we're teaching boys. What do we give girls? We give them toy ironing boards. We give them dolls, we give them bridal veils, we give them playhouses, right? This is not me trying to cancel Barbie. I love the Barbie movie.

I know, we love Barbie, but we want Barbie and the blocks so we can build the Barbie dream house ourselves. Like we're not canceling Barbie. Those things are fine, but stop telling me that I have to play house in a house that's already made because there's no possible way

I could have built that myself. We give a two-year-old girl another child to take care of. That's gross. We are telling girls that their value is in how much they give of themselves, How altruistic are you? How much are you sacrificing yourself to care for other people?

Now, I am really beautifully glad that women are taught selflessness. I am not mad about that. I think that's a beautiful trait. But the issue is that we're not teaching boys the same thing. So what happens as we age? What happens as we grow up and we start becoming more financially confident? We start showing up as the fullest version of ourselves. We start talking about our accomplishments.

we start progressing in our careers and in our relationships and in our money, our altruism gets weaponized. There's a weaponization of the altruism that is taught to us because you're no longer controllable. When you have money, when you have agency, when you have stability, you're no longer controllable. And the patriarchy panics. They go, we're not going to be able to control her anymore. We're going to cut her down. We're going to tell her, actually, you bragging about your accomplishments is really tacky. we're going to tell her that, you know what? I don't know how much you spent on that, but that feels like a waste of your money. And it could have gone to these other things that

I'm deeming are a better use from a random person on the internet, right? The patriarchy tells you that your altruism is the number one priority. Now, this isn't hoard your money and be selfish. I want to be so clear. Oh, no, absolutely not. None of that is true. I'm anti-capitalist over here. It's not about that. But it is so interesting that when women are successful, the patriarchy panics.

It weaponizes our altruism against us. But we absolutely worship men with money. We worship men with success. We worship men with good careers and Rolex watches and a nice suit. We worship that. And especially in the United States, in a very individualistic culture, we worship that. So if you as an individual are showing up as the fullest version of yourself and pissing people off, great. Solid. And if they don't like it, you know what they can do? They can go find less. If you are showing up in a relationship and a person feels threatened,

typically a man, if you're dating men, that's not the person for you. If you are showing up at a job and they don't like that you are succeeding or that your co-workers don't like you're succeeding. Okay, great. Too bad. Like the biggest thing we can do as individuals, again, I'm going to sound like a broken record. We started this the same way, but like it's the fullest version of yourself is a form of protest against a system that constantly demands you play small. So with tall poppy syndrome, I know because I have friends in Australia, I have friends in the UK, It's very, very common there. It feels like almost gross to be successful.

It does. Because you're like so worried, like, is everybody going to hate me? It's like a bubble. We have a bit of that here in the US. I think there's, I think it's less. But I also, like as harsh as this sounds, if you don't have people in your life,

if you're not in situations in your life that will celebrate you making choices that are right for you, get new friends. That sounds so bad. No, that's great advice. Get new friends, get a new partner, get a new job. Like as long as you are not hurting yourself or others, if your choices make you happy, great.

If your choices make you happy, but no one gets them, fine. Oh, I'm getting really philosophical today. I'm so sorry. But like, I like this. The only person you have to answer to when your head hits the pillow, even if somebody's next to you on the other pillow, like the only person you have to answer to is you.

so if your life doesn't light you on fire time to get a new life time to get a new one it's true, you deserve so much more so go and get it because it's there for the taking with the right education and the right steps and the right people

and I always say to my community if your friends aren't championing you I will champion you, I will be that person that tells you to go find more because your friends, they deserve less if they're going to be like that I will also say with all of this This is only able to happen for the things we can control.

This is what my book acknowledges, what my podcast acknowledges. Yes, I can tell you, like, go live your best life, live your big dreams. But at the end of the day, there is racism and sexism and homophobia and ableism and a trillion-dollar student debt crisis and stagnating minimum wages. And in this country, a lack of paid family leave and all of these things. So it has to be coupled with systemic change. Like, control the things that you can control. Show up as the best version of yourself. Get financially educated.

Understand how to put a budget together that supports your goals. Understand how to start investing so you can build your wealth. Do what you can to find a good paying job that doesn't deplete you and that gives you flexibility and options. But at the end of the day, personal finance is about 20% those things and 80% circumstances. It's about 80% systemic issues. And that's where we need government support, policy change, a new system. Control the things you can control, and then all of the rest of this has to change in order for us to live in a more pleasurable, more safe, more equitable society. And I always, when I do, you know, talk about like making changes in your life, I always want to acknowledge for the person that's listening and I know you, I can see you, you're like with your headphones going like, okay, that's great.

But like, I don't make shit at work or, you know, I've tried and I can't pay off my debt because I don't make enough money. So know that I see you and that I understand that at a certain point, choices are not available to you if you don't have the financial means to do so. I don't have an answer. The answer is to vote. The answer is to change policy. The answer is to support legislators and legislation you want to see. But beyond that, again, you and I, I think, work to focus people on controlling the things that they can control and then changing the rest of it for everybody else.

100%. Like, we'll do the big stuff if we can. Like, we'll use our voices to do that. You don't have to do that. You can take the small steps. Tori, I think we should run off for a very quick break because I need a tea. But also, when we come back, I want to talk about overcoming those barriers a bit more and building some confidence to stand up for yourself so guys don't go anywhere.

I am back with Tori, who is from Her First 100K. And we have been, what would you say, passionately chatting about our experiences as women in finance. And I think it is beautiful to touch base on, I guess, how people can combat it. I really liked what you said at the end of the first break that, you know, we do see that it's struggle and we do see that it is really hard. And sometimes you listen to stuff, especially podcasts like this, and you're like, I want to just throw my phone in the bin because I picked up this podcast and I just feel like I can't achieve a lot because the world works against

you in a way. I follow you on TikTok. I love your content. I don't think that is a surprise. You probably see my posts all the time and basically like louder amen like I'm just hanging out in the back while also not posting my own content like I'm just your personal hype girl at this point but you did a TikTok the other day and you were recently asked after talking about being get this a New York Times bestseller you're like a Forbes 30 under 30 you're doing all this and the audacity of a guy to stand up to say what were your credentials uh-huh like I nearly threw my phone at the wall why do you think that question is asked of somebody who quite clearly is incredibly articulate and passionate and obviously educated you don't have to ask about

credentials because I can tell that you know your shit but like why were you asked that and when other women are asked that how should we respond when our authority in our space is is questioned you will appreciate this not to go too in the weeds i'm speaking to a bunch of financial advisors no you weren't of course it was a lot of like how is this tiktok social media star qualified to like give financial advice so weird i know more than you bye and they also meant like regulation and like basically was asking like, do you have a degree in finance? This is again, a larger conversation in the weeds, but like in the United States, there's certain things that you can say if you have like a CFP, a certified financial planner, like license or degree. And there's

certain things you can't say. So again, that didn't make as sexy of a TikTok, but someone did come up to me. I'm like keynoting this massive conference. I got paid 25 K to be there. Holy, holy. I am literally signing copies of my New York times bestselling book. And he's like, it was really interesting what you had to say which is always what men say to me really interesting what you had to say and then he was like so basically how are you able to do what you do what are your credentials yeah the irony is yeah i literally have a book open in front of me and i'm signing my name on it i'm just like here you go i'm doing just fine sir also don't ask a question you could have googled it makes you look really dumb really it's just bad but like i get tiktok

comments all the time of like oh if you're a millionaire you're not because you don't look rich like men tell me like you don't look rich or your hair is bad or like if you were a millionaire you'd live in a better house than that so what you are seeing is that living my life in a hoodie is a privilege get out of your uncomfortable pencil skirt I wore an Australian hoodie for you today I bought this actually in a New Zealand I'm so sorry but it is an Australian brand and I love it I love this I'll send you one of our she's on the money hoodies you need merch oh my god I would love that so yeah i think that this is back to our conversation about like women playing big in a space patriarchy feel bad like weaponized altruism like that's what's happening woman shows

up as fullest version of herself patriarchy panics because realizes she's no longer controllable tries to cut you down now you have two potential responses one which is totally understandable is to be like holy shit am i not qualified to be here am i not qualified to have this job am i not qualified to show up and speak at this event? Am I not qualified to do these things? Or do I not say my accomplishments for fear of pissing somebody else off? That is totally understandable, but that is not the right answer. It's the wrong answer. The second answer is to show up anyway and understand that the girls that get it, get it. And the girls that don't, don't like there will be people who don't understand what you do. And that's okay. It's okay. And I think,

especially as a business owner, this is actually advice I give to a lot of business owners or people who want to be business owners is we feel like we have to appeal to everybody. We feel like we have to serve everybody because everybody's our potential customer. And like, we really want to make sure that we get the money and get clients in order to like support this business. And again, you can translate this, even if you're not a business owner, I want to make sure that nobody hates me, right? Like I want to make sure that everybody likes me and that Everything's great. And we know this. I'm adding myself too, because I am a Leslie Knope. I want to be liked by everybody. Like even I have to remind myself of this. Even if you try to be

liked by everybody, like if you were the best person for the job of trying to be liked by everybody, somebody out there would still not like you. So you have to, again, understand that the only person you have to answer to is you. The only person you have to answer to with your choices and your decisions is you and if there are certain people that don't get what you're trying to do that's okay like this lovely man who was probably about 60 years old and was a straight white guy asking me like I think he meant it very well intentionally but he doesn't understand how it comes across he's not my audience and that's okay he's not the people I'm trying to appeal to he doesn't get it the girls that get it get it and the girls that don't don't and that's

okay but again this is back to if we show up as the fullest versions of ourselves the patriarchy and by patriarchy i sometimes mean men but what i mean really is like the deeply rooted notion or narrative that someone else's success means some sort of threat to us this like narrative that we've been told that there's one seat at the table or that if somebody else is succeeding it means I can't also succeed. Or it also feels like a call out sometimes. If you know you're capable of greatness, whatever greatness looks like for you, and somebody else is doing great things, it can feel like this mirror where you're like, holy shit, this person has that. Why don't I have that? And then again, you have a choice. You have the opportunity to either go, wow,

I'm going to use this person and their story as inspiration for me to motivate me. Or you can be mean on the internet? You can ask, well, what is the reason that I don't like them? What is the thing I can find that, again, devalues them, devalues their experience, makes them look small? So yeah, I mean, all roads lead back to patriarchy. Oh, 100%. And isn't that frustrating? Like I have had my authority questioned multiple times, especially as an Australian. And I am in the really fun position where I do get to snap back because I was a financial advisor. I'm now a retired financial advisor. And I don't just have one degree. I got a whole bunch of them and I have an MBA. So sit the hell down. It's like, you know, when they always say like, you learn

more on the job. Like I learned more about finance and personal finance and the things that are important to my community, not through my degrees. To me, they mean nothing. In fact, I look at them and I go, that was a whole heap of debt that I got myself into to get to a position that I arguably was already passionate about, already excited about, and could have just learned more on the job so to me they didn't make me they didn't help me they might make a mediocre middle-aged white man shut the hell up and that's good for a hot second but I just feel like having your authority questioned I love it do you know why because it means they're a little bit uncomfortable and I love making men uncomfortable it is my favorite and I also then like to drop back and I think that

you'll get a laugh out of this but like if people like to question me I like to act really dumb and be like oh what do you mean and get them to explain themselves or I go oh my gosh so sorry I'm the worst at picking up on tone was that meant to be helpful or harmful yeah make them dig their own grave my favorite question to like men being stupid is just tell me more about that and then they can't I ask men that all the time tell me more about that tell me a story very like level headed but I'll give them this kind of look I'll tilt my head a little bit and be like tell me more about that and they always backtrack they're like uh well this thing it's my favorite oh me too and this is a larger conversation about imposter syndrome like I'll tell you a story I can

remember the last time I ever felt like an imposter it was 2019 her first 100k was still a side hustle it was one of like my first like big speaking engagements I felt really big at the time it was maybe like a crowd of 40 people that's a lot of people like at the end of the day like especially at the start it was very significant now let's just reframe this 25k for your last engagement like yeah queen get it so yeah i was on this panel with i think three or four other people i was the youngest person on that panel by at least a decade speaking of the pencil skirts like they had the blazers they had the pencil skirts they had the financial licenses and one was a cfp and like one you know was a venture capitalist and i'm showing up in this

room and I remember thinking, oh, I'm maybe not supposed to be here. Like I had my Adidas on for a really long time. I had like the signature leather jacket that I wore for everything. Like that's what I had on. I love these. I love it so much. And I, you know, was 24 and was just like, this is going to be interesting. They're way more qualified than I am. Their resumes are way longer than mine. What am I doing here? And as we got started, I started looking out into the audience, and it was all women in their 20s and 30s. They were there for you, my friend. Right. They looked like me. They were dressed like me. And I turned, you know, to these very smart people who were very kind and very intelligent and very good at their jobs. But literally, one of them

started saying words like acid allocation and portfolio diversifying. It was almost comical. I saw every single woman, just her eyes glaze over. Of course, not because she's stupid. It's just it's jargony stuff that like because they had been in the industry for so long they just took is like everybody knows this yeah and that was the moment where I was like oh I'm here for a specific reason I'm here to make this non-approachable topic approachable I'm here to show up as someone who could be like a friend or a sister to this person I'm here to actually talk about personal finance 101 as if it's 101 not what they think 101 is and like that was literally the last moment I've ever had imposter syndrome because I was like I'm supposed to be here

you finally knew that that was the room you were meant to be in right I don't have as big of a resume I haven't been through as many of these things but I'm here for a particular reason to talk to this particular person like that was so helpful for me and maybe it's helpful for you too listener of like showing up in rooms where you might not be the most qualified person. You're there for a different reason. You're there so that people feel less alone. You're there so that people can see themselves in you. You're there to translate jargon. Like you're there for a different reason. And that reason is just as valid. And I would argue maybe even more valid because you are the best person for that job. I love this. I feel like I've been talking to

you forever you are a very busy woman I do not want to eat up any more of your time I feel like you and I could talk about this until the cows come home and I genuinely cannot wait until we get an opportunity to do this again like I will be following you up to be like when can we meet how much coffee can we drink and yell at each other over like I just I think this is so good this has been great but one of my favorite questions to ask people is Tori you came on this podcast and you're very generous with your time and you said, yeah, I'll give the She's on the Money community a piece of me to help them get ahead. But coming into any interview, what is one question that you wish people would ask you? I get asked a lot, of course, about like,

where does somebody get started financially? And I think that's really helpful. I think one of the things that I am most proud of that actually doesn't have anything to do with personal finance is how we've built our business. And I wish more people asked about that. Like I said before, we have a team. We have built this company. We have built, honestly, like a media company. I built that with $20. Like I signed up for a Squarespace subscription. I bought a domain. Maybe it was 40. I think I bought the Squarespace subscription and then I bought the domain. So it was probably about 40 bucks. Like I took no outside funding. We don't do paid ads. Like, we have grown an audience to 4 million people with organic social media. Now, if you don't work in social media, that is almost impossible to do.

Yeah, like, that is the biggest bragging rights in the entire world. It's very difficult, especially with companies like a Meta or a Google that basically tank your organic content. If you're not paying. And I had this background in social media, and I literally worked for companies that would spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a month just on Facebook ads. And now I have a ton of privilege. I want to be clear about that. That's a huge part of my story. I'm a cisgendered white woman who, you know, graduated college debt-free because she worked through college but also had parents to help pay.

Like, I have a lot of privileges, but I didn't have this, like, rich uncle who swooped in and was like, here's some investment money for your business. Like, I am really, really proud of what I have been able to do as an individual, what our team has been able to do, what our community stands for, creating a mission and values-based company to teach women how to navigate the financial system, but also working to take this community and give them both an individual purpose and a collective purpose. And the fact that I didn't ask for outside money to do that. I haven't paid for ads like I'm really proud of that I am in awe of that like thank you especially in America where it is so hard to get ahead especially as a woman and to be able to be like I don't spend anything on ads I also didn't take anybody's money I did this I'm just ah I love it so much thank you I'm so glad I asked that and it's also like without getting too emotional like I'm really proud of myself.

I've always had a vision for something bigger, but I didn't know that this was it. Like, I always make the joke, like, if you would have told me five years ago, Tori, you're going to be educating people about money, I would have laughed in your face. Same. I would have been like, that sounds awful. Literally. I'm like, that sounds boring as hell.

I thought I was going to be a psychologist. Look at this now. Like, what? The goal was to be an actor for me and then a marketer and then, like, it's turned into this. And so it's just really, really amazing to see the impact it's had on people's lives,

to see the impact it's had on my own life. Like I am financially independent. That's the other thing that I wish more people asked me about. I was financially independent at 27 years old, meaning I never had to work another day in my life if I didn't want to because I had saved slash invested enough money

that I could have hypothetically quit working. Now I don't want to do that because I like what I do and we have a company now and we do all these things. I'm proud of that. There's a lot of things I'm proud of. I think with HFK and with how I've grown,

I don't know how much time we have. But the other thing that I think is really important that I wish we talked more about just as a society and as people who are public people online is that it is very, very difficult to be a person online. And we were never meant to be or designed to be as humans, beings that took everybody's opinion and took a million pieces of data all of the time in, you know, one 10 minute scrolling session on Instagram or TikTok. Like I always think about if I walked down the street and that worked the same way, my social media feed did one person would be so excited to meet me, which would be lovely. And then I'd have five people

screaming obscenities or calling me fat to my face. It just, it's not the reality, is it? It's not the reality. And it's also like, I think most of us are just trying to do the best that we can. We're just trying to show up as the best versions of ourselves. And we are going to make mistakes. And we are also going to sometimes make decisions that other people don't understand because there's information that we have that somebody else doesn't. And we're just trying to do the right thing. And it's really often difficult, even with all of these very flashy measures of success and things that I'm so grateful for. You were talking about showing up on TikTok every day. That is not easy. Oh, no, that's why I'm impressed. Obviously,

working a nine to five Monday to Friday job is much harder than that. However, I think it's one of those things where just showing up, it takes so much more than the time, right? It takes the energy. It takes me so much emotional energy just to turn up online. And even if you're not an influencer or a public person, like social media is a beautiful way to connect with people. It is also so damaging to your psyche. Like it's so hard to create content, to show up, to do that day in their day out to do that where people are screaming at you and just saying really gross things about you. And again, I don't have an answer, but just like be kind to people online, like show up as the kindest version of yourself in all aspects of your life. But especially if you're hiding behind

this like anonymity or you're telling somebody that you don't actually know in real life about all of your opinions about their work or about them it says so much more about them than it ever does about you and i just don't think they realize that and it's the sad reality of the world because as you said before we're all just out here trying to do the best that we can and your best is obviously way way way up there but your best is actually just trying to put other people in the best possible position because you know that a lot of them aren't and they deserve that and the idea that people don't like that blows my mind. Like the idea that you're just out here trying to help and people hate it. Yeah. And just the assumption of positive intent, I think is so important.

This is important for ourselves. It's important for our relationships. It's also important for people you admire or follow online. Offer yourself and me and Victoria and everybody else you follow like just a little bit of grace. I love that. We're doing the best that we can. And we are doing this in the hopes that we can take care of ourselves. We can take care of our team. We can take care of our communities and that we can leave the world a little bit better than we found it. And all of this sounds like touchy feely, but like truly just be kind to people, especially the people that like you follow and you hold in high regard because we are people too. We are out here doing the best we can with all of it I love it Tori I think that is probably one of the best

places to leave it that I've ever seen so I am going to wrap us up here but before we go thank you for sharing so much time with me and with my community I know they are going to be so excited about this episode I feel like you're right this episode's a little bit more fluffy but like I hope people walk away feeling so inspired so empowered to just take the first step if they haven't done that yet or just know that they're on the right track right like if you're listening to this and you're like I am doing those things like you get it queen like I love it so much but for those of you who might not have met you yet how do we stay in touch how do we follow you how do we buy your book how do I do all of those things that I want everyone in my community to

be doing thank you I know there's a lot of actionable advice on your episodes and your podcast as well as mine so hopefully this was actually a nice reprieve from some of that Her First 100K is our brand. You can go to herfirst100k.com for all of the ways to work with us and to consume our content. We're also herfirst100k on all the socials. My podcast and book are called Financial Feminist

and should be available wherever you listen to podcasts and wherever you read your books. We will link to all of them in our show notes so it can't be missed and you don't have to write that down. But again, Tori, thank you so much for sharing so much time and so much space and honestly, so much of you.

I feel like I've learned in this, I guess, hour that we've been recording just so much about who you are as a person. And I'm even more obsessed. Like I love it. I just can't wait until we cross paths in person and get to talk more about business. Like I want to know how you built this business and I want to share that with my community too. So guys, thank you so much for listening. And Tori, thank you so much for joining. I love it. Thanks for having me. The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes

and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa, PTY LTD ABN 321 649 27708 AFSL 451 289.