She's On The Money - In Conversation: Aunty Munya Andrews and Carla Rogers from Evolve Communities

Episode Date: March 6, 2022

HAPPY INTERNATIONAL WOMEN'S WEEK ANGELS! We know, we know - that's not a real thing. But we've decided it is this week because International Women's Day is just not enough for us. This week we're switching out our regular content with not one, but THREE epic chats, with THREE epic people we know you're going to learn a lot from. These people are absolute powerhouses and have voices that need to be heard.In today's episode, we were absolutely honoured to be joined by Aunty Munya Andrews and Carla Rogers from Evolve Communities. Jess and Victoria sat down with them recently to chat and this is one of our most special episodes to date.Evolve Communities provides highly interactive Cultural Awareness, Reconciliation and Allyship training. Their big 10 year goal is to inspire 10 million Allies to create a kinder, more inclusive Australia.If you want to make a difference in the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians, but you’re not sure where to begin - perhaps you’re not confident communicating with Indigenous people or, feel held back by the fear of causing offence, you’re in luck.Here are all the links we promised you during the show:Evolve Communities Website: https://www.evolves.com.au/Aunty Munya's Book "Journey into dreamtime": https://www.evolves.com.au/dreamtime-book/How To Buy Black: https://www.evolves.com.au/how-to-buy-black-this-holiday-season/Keep Showing Up After Jan 26: https://www.evolves.com.au/7-ways-to-keep-showing-up-after-january-26/Practical Reconciliation book: https://www.evolves.com.au/practical-reconciliation-book/The advice shared on She’s on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She’s on The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine is an Authorised Representative of Infocus Securities Australia Proprietary Limited ABN 47 097 797 049 AFSL - AFSL 236523.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. I'd like to make space for Aunty Manya Andrews to give an acknowledgement of country. Nga man laadi, nga man laadi amba, nga man laadi uran, nga man laadi amburini buru, nga man laadi wariwari darawal buru. We say hello, nga man laadi, and we acknowledge all the traditional owners right across Australia. we say, and of course, acknowledge the Wadi Wadi people of the Dharawal nation where we live and work. So, she's on the money. She's on the money.

Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. This week, we are breaking the bias and we are throwing out all of our regular programmed episodes to really embrace International Women's Day, which as a team, we are now calling International Women's Week. Today, we are going to be joined by Aunty Manya Andrews and Carla Rogers, who are the living embodiment of this year's International Women's Day theme, Breaking the Bias. They're the founders of Evolve Communities and you might have seen Aunty Manya floating around in her Ask Aunty video series where she works really hard to share some cultural insights that we might not be privy to and to educate in the space of allyship. Aunty

Manya and Carla share a belief that absolutely everyone has a value and that all people have wisdom to offer. Their work is all about spotlighting the unique wisdom Indigenous culture has to offer and we are so privileged to have them on the show today. We're going to chat today a little bit about your incredible work with Evolve Communities in the space of cultural awareness and training, but also to learn a little bit about you two as businesswomen because I think you've really built on this incredible dynamic and service, a real need I think that is out there. So I'm really, really thrilled to chat to you about that a little bit. But I guess to get started, could you tell us how you guys met and how this all initially developed?

Yeah, well, we first met 11 years ago now, 10, 11 years ago, up in the Gulf country of Queensland. Carla was doing a project I was invited on to be part of the team. And through our discussions with one another, we realised that actually we shared a number of common values. One was about respecting all views and that everybody has something to contribute. and also a broader vision of us to create a more inclusive, kinder Australia.

So we got chatting about then what can we do to go about creating that? It was funny because Aunty Manya was a, we had a last minute scratching in that project and someone said, oh, I know this amazing woman that would be great. And Aunty Manya came in and ended up being co-lead on that project.

And then probably fast forward about five years when Aunty Manya had been working with us quite a lot, we decided we want to achieve this, as Aunty Manya said, a kind of more inclusive Australia and how are we going to do that? And we thought, well, it's through allyship. We need, you know, we had a big, bold vision of having 10 million more allies across Australia. And then we thought, well, okay, that's wonderful,

but then how are we going to do that? And that's when Aunty Manya came into the business as co-director And we really, really sat down and scratched our heads and developed all the programs that we have now, which are very much, very practical and focused on allyship. Incredible. And we're going to talk a little bit more about those different programs that you offer a little bit later in the show, I believe. But first, I would love to know a little bit more about Evolve Communities.

You mentioned that you came together, obviously, Carla, you started it and then Auntie Money, you joined it. It started in 2005 by you, Carla, which was a fair while ago. Yeah, I'm just showing it away. We're always saying it's spring chickens anymore. And again, there's lots of funny stories about that. I was actually living in a coastal village on the far south coast of New South Wales and I actually ran webinars when they first came out and I ran what was called a Leading

Light series and I used to interview, it was in the space of community engagement and facilitation and I interviewed leading lights in that space and yeah from a garage in in Naruma and I just remember one time I think I had about and it was in I think I know it was the days of go-to meeting or something like that we're using and and I remember having seeing about 400 odd people from across the globe join into this call and then I heard the whippersnipper start and that is all too common to us. All of a sudden I saw these 400 people like popping off a perch drop off the line as the whippersnapper man cut the line. Oh no. In those days it would have been a telephone line. Yeah. I was going to say anyone who's been working from home over the course of

the pandemic would be all too familiar with the neighbour out the back mowing in the middle of a meeting, but cutting the line is arguably a little bit worse. Yeah, that was going next level. And I just, people's perception of probably the business and me at the time was, you know, I was in this fancy studio and had all this tech and it was just a, probably a little laptop in a garage. I mean, that's how She's On The Money started. Me with a microphone, my laptop, a doona on the table, because I heard that you needed to be really mindful of sound reverberation. And it got to a point where I did have a do not over my head. So we all start somewhere, my friends. And I feel like that's part of the journey. It's part of the fun. And I think one of my favorite things

about She's On The Money is looking back on where we've come from. And I'm sure you guys are the same because you mentioned webinars and now you have this absolutely gorgeous breadth of offerings that you put on the table, but you are probably a little bit more well-known. And this is where we discovered you on LinkedIn from your Auntie Manya video series. How did that become a thing? How did you light that up? Well, we always had that as when we did face-to-face training, we also had a Q&A session that I called Dear Abby at the time, where people were free to ask me any questions at all. And so it was a natural sort of adaptation of that, that as we started to branch out more online and have an online presence, we decided to have an Ask Aunty section. And so

that's how that developed. And that's proving to be very popular because it's where people can ask questions quite freely, not be worried about being judged. And we have a philosophy that says there's no such thing as a silly question, because how will you know otherwise if you don't feel that you can ask any questions. So nothing's off limits at all. We welcome all questions and just proving to be very popular. Yes, and we've been doing it for a long time. So we did do it well before You Can't Ask That, the popular TV program, and we're about to launch an Ask Ali or Ask an Ally as well. But Aunty Manya has a great story about our philosophy of how you can ask anything, Aunty Manya. Yeah, I always tell people, you know, I've been doing this for a long time

now. So I've heard pretty much all there is to ask about Indigenous people and Indigenous culture. But every now and then there's a question that comes from left field. Like one time I was doing this in front of high school students, gosh, probably 35 years ago now. Oh my gosh. And one young fellow put up his hand and I go, yes, what would you like to know? And he goes, I want to know how come all Aboriginal people drive Valiants? And I had a chuckle then, as I do now, still recalling the story. And I said, well, you know, the Indigenous community is diverse as any. We drive a range of cars. I happen to drive an MGB sports car because I have a passion for those cars. Anyway, I was doing this with an older Noongar woman, Noongar being the name for the

people in the Perth region and the southwest of WA. And she said to me afterwards, oh, thank God you got that question. And I said, why? And she goes, because I drive a Valiant. You guys just have really good taste. Which of course just goes to prove the stereotype. But I think the one thing that I feel like is really special about the Ask Aunty series is that not only do you do this and you say that you are, you know, creating this space to ask these questions, but you've genuinely created a space that people feel safe to do so as well. It's not a, yeah, you can ask anything, but you're actually exuding like just this feeling of safety to learn

and to grow and to be better people. And I just want to know a bit about, you know, you've obviously brought it together so that we can learn and create together, but are there challenges with that and online and that, I guess, transferring over to, you know, people feeling safe to ask those questions? Yeah, I've found actually that it's amazing that people have said to Carla just the other day that all the comments people are saying, geez, thank you for being so open and I feel safe with asking you these questions. So it's transferring over to them in the cyber world. And that's pretty amazing that they can pick up on that because that's one of the values, isn't it, colour for us, cultural safety, how important it is for people to feel free to express themselves

in any way. So we're really mindful of that. And that's always in our minds whenever we're teaching or training. Yeah, it's very intentional. So, you know, Auntie Manya has this presence and demeanour that people do feel safe. And then we've, my background is in designing spaces for people to share and collaborate. And so we are very intentional about creating that safety. And one of our key messages is there's no place for shame or guilt. And particularly, as Auntie Manya says, everyone has wisdom to offer and we value everyone. So we do spend a lot of time being intentional about that. Well, how do we create that? And as Auntie Manya was saying, we're very values-based. We've got three key values. One is kindness in kindredness,

and that's all about kinship and we treat everyone as family, not in a cultish way, in a positive way. In the good way. That's right. Fun in creativity. So we like for all of our spaces to be very creative. And the third one is walking our talk. So Aunty Manya and I invite people to pull us up if we're not walking our talk, walking our values, but everything that we do is designed to walk our talk, basically. Incredible. I think, yeah, the sense of warmth, as you said, absolutely does translate because I'm a big fan from LinkedIn. And yeah, I think that there's something really comforting and familial, as you said, about those videos when you talk and you share and you are really open. But we spoke, we've had a chat with you before

today, and we spoke a little bit about the burden of education and that as much as you're putting yourself out there and you're providing these resources, the burden of education shouldn't always be on people of colour and on women of colour, particularly because that's what we see happening a lot. And this year's International Women's Day theme is Break the Bias. And sometimes you see that people put that responsibility back on the people who are trying to do that work, which is just not fair. And I'd love to know how you strike that balance between being educational, helping literally shift the needle on these issues without taking too much away from yourselves and taking that responsibility on so deeply that it then impacts

you? It's a great question and there's a few layers in that. I'll probably start at the simplest layer and that's where I come in as a non-Indigenous person. In Australia, if you think, put yourself in a room now and imagine yourself in a room of 30 people, statistically only one of those people will be Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander in Australia. Which is not a lot, is it? When you think that, you know, there's such significant communities that have been here longer than anybody else, that statistic is quite shocking. That's right, Jess. And when you talk about the burden, you know, I've been very lucky in my career to pretty much always work with Aboriginal people and communities. And my observation is that I could clock off at 5pm,

but my Aboriginal colleagues couldn't. It's 24-7, like their obligations to community, there particularly if they're working in a in a space that delivers services for example to aboriginal communities they don't clock off at five o'clock so when we're talking about creating a kinder and more inclusive australia and reconciliation and this is where the 29 of us in that room people like myself come into play it's it's us the theme i think for nadoc week this year is show up and stand up and there's one more i can't think of it right now but you know it's up to us to show up and stand up and learn what we need to know for reconciliation, for allyship. And then we can't keep going to the Auntie Munyas of the world who are already very

burdened, you know, saying, feed me, feed me, like teach me, teach me. So it's very fantastic to want to learn more. And then also there's such rich content that's already on TV and books. And so make sure that you're also engaging with all of that material as well. Aunty Manya, what do you think with that question? Yeah, it's about sharing the burden. That makes it easier on many Indigenous people who are already trying to educate. But it's also a two-way learning process as well. It's for us to learn about other people as well, and that helps us in our lives. It's a fine balance, really maintaining all of that and and with the training so and and that other layer of your question about us personally and this is i guess that you know this fabulous on the money podcast

and things like that is we're looking to grow allies and you know for everyone that we're connecting with today was like again without sounding like a cult but it's like yay let's we can do this let's get on board and and it was something that one of our allies haven't gone through now. We've had an accreditation course since October. Last year. Last year. And one of the participants said, oh, it's great to be part of a movement. And I went, yeah, a movement. I didn't realise we were creating that. But yes, we are. Thank you for that. Oh, my gosh, you did. You totally did. Yeah. You mentioned before that obviously you've got your Ask Aunty video series. And before, Carly, you said that you were going to start an Ask Ally series, which I think is

so exciting. But I think we need to take a little bit of a step back. Can you explain to us and to our community exactly why allyship is just so important and why we really need to be embracing this? Yeah. So I guess the simplest answer to that is that around that one in 30, you know, only 3% of the population is Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander. And we have a framework in the way that we teach. We call it the seven steps. And these are the seven basic building blocks we feel that everyone needs to know to increase their confidence to be an ally. I think a response to this, which is always so touching is, you know, when we ask Auntie Manya, like, how does she feel when she sees, like, for example, in 2000, many of your

listeners might be too young to remember this, but your parents might have anticipated, but in 2000, when Cathy Freeman won the Olympics, but in that same year, there was a walk across the harper bridge for reconciliation yes and over 250 000 people walked across the bridge as a show of support and so auntie mania how did you feel i know you weren't there but how did you feel when you saw that oh it was just one of the most powerful images in our history carla and when i saw all those people walking across the bridge i remember thinking at the time oh my god you know they care and i hadn't realized just how many people cared and so that's one of the things that really struck me it makes me quite emotional just recalling that now but that's how I felt at

the time and I felt very hopeful for this country and where we were going together if that many people could get on that bridge and show that commitment and and walk together it was just so promising so um yeah I was very moved by it and Auntie Manya is she's tearing up Well, we won't tell you how many people listen to the podcast because I guess the aim of this is to create an even bigger community of allies and, you know, bring the community to you. So hopefully we can convince some of them to also be on that journey with us because it is really moving to know people care, like we care, we care deeply, but we need to know how to support that as well, because I believe deeply that it's one thing to say we care. And you said before, that's

one of your core values. Your third value was walking your talk. And we can talk about this all the time. But can you talk us through what we can actually do? How can we have impact? How can we support these communities? Because you can only pour from a cup so much, right, before it's empty. How do we help keep yours full? Well, I think too, it's, you know, the question about why were we drawn to the allyship concept because that's all about taking action because where that movement came out of it was about not just calling yourself an ally but what are you doing about it and that really appealed to us because that's about saying to people great we know you care and that but what can you do even on a daily basis and we actually have some tips around being an ally and they

include things like you know listen and do your homework not speaking over standing up for people but not speaking over the voices and what are the other ones Carla it's just ally is a verb so it's it's all about action as Auntie Manya said and learning from your mistakes is a big part of it and another aspect which was kind of really I had to think about this a lot but allyship is about your impact, not your intent. So being mindful of the impact. But we provide really simple ways and suggestions all the time throughout different social media and everything about, like, for example, on the 26th of January, five simple things you can do to be an ally. You know, we do basically do this sort of every month. And there's a massive appetite for it. So

probably even from my own story as a um you know in terms of walking our talk my ancestors were actually one of my ancestors was on the first fleet and actually his offspring came and invaded the area that i'm now returned to and consider home as well but i just remember as a kid wandering through the bush in sydney actually and just having a real craving for an aboriginal friend and and so that's where my journey began and I used to I've always probably been a little bit different I used to have an awareness of the old people or the spirits and talk to them in the bush but I just I I thought I was so conscious that I didn't have an Aboriginal friend and then I went to came down the coast and went to a school and I got so excited when they said we were going

to be singing a song about Aboriginal children and it turned out to be the song as it was called Five Little Piccaninnies, which is actually a North American song and was a racial piccaninny at that time, was a racial slur. So I call it terra nullius, which is land belonging to nobody, which, you know, Australia was incorrectly declared as. I call it terra nullius of my schooling. And so that desire to connect with an Aboriginal person went with me the whole way and I probably finally did get my first

Aboriginal friend in my early 20s. but we still get a lot of people coming to us with this burning desire as well but being really frightened and scared of saying that doing the wrong thing so we need allies because there's a massive gap in australia you know there's the closing the gap program aboriginal people still live up to 10 years shorter lives poorer health poorer economic outcomes you know double the suicide rate the incarceration rates but then on the another side and auntie mania might want to talk more about this. There's so much we have to learn from Indigenous wisdom and embracing Aboriginal people and culture. And we can't move forward as a nation until we do that.

And Aunty Manya, like Aunty Manya has written a book about Aboriginal spirituality, Aunty Manya? Yeah, I wrote it on Aboriginal Dreamtime, because that's one of the most popular questions we get asked all the time is, what's Dreamtime? Can you explain what Dreamtime is? And so I wrote a book explaining our spirituality that's available for people to find out more. And people are saying things like, wow, that's a really easy explanation. I really get it. And they love the way that I wrote in a very simple manner for the wider Australian audience so that it's about getting this kind of information and knowledge out to people and not having

it as this mysterious thing that you don't understand at all, but that most people can relate to. And of course, I'm also interested in comparative religions, if you like. And so I wrote it from that perspective as well, looking at basic religious concepts that are understood in other cultures so that people could understand Aboriginal Dreamtime. Oh my goodness. One of my earliest memories is going to a museum, actually, and there was an exhibit on Dreamtime. And there were all of these beautiful, beautiful artworks that spanned the length of the room. And I remember being so enamored by those stories and the way that storytelling is such an intrinsic part of your culture. I can totally understand why people are

fascinated because it really captured me as a child. And it's something that as an adult, I still find so interesting and so engaging. The name of your book and where can people get it? Because I think that a lot of people listening will also share that interest. Well, the book on Dreamtime is called Journey Into Dreamtime, and it's available through pretty much everywhere. We've got in all the formats as well, Kindle and Audible. You're everywhere. We'll make sure it's in the show notes so people can click straight through to purchase

it because I feel like I want to read that. I feel like it's just such a special, I feel like you're opening your community to share with us, which is a privilege to be able to learn from you and share it with you. Because as Jess was saying before, like education is a burden to educate us as people who aren't in your community. Like you don't owe us that. And it's so special that you extend that opportunity for us to learn. And I guess that's where your business Evolve Communities has come from. And I would love to pivot into talking a little bit about the savvy business women we are talking to today, because you've not only created a business, but a thriving business. Like you work with some of Australia's

biggest organisations. Can you talk me through how you came to start a business and knew that it was a business, not just a hobby on the side or not something you were just interested in pursuing? Well, that's a great question. And I guess a confession time now. It was a hobby on the side for a long time. So I actually, I was very lucky. I was managing an Aboriginal section and World Heritage section of national parks for a long time. And I was so lucky, talking about amazing women, I was so lucky to job share that role with an incredible woman and do that part time. And for a long time, I had the business as part time. But it's something really important to share that, you know, if you have a dream, you don't necessarily always have to go in boots and

all. You can test the waters a bit. And, you know, because I had financial obligations, I had a daughter, and so I was able to keep some of that financial stability, I guess. And then when we joined forces, when Auntie Manya came on board, so that was 2014, I thought, right, I'm not going to be able to take this any further as a hobby you know this is the time to commit and and boots and all and so we did go boots and all full time and it's been fabulous doing that with Auntie Manya I think it would be much harder doing alone and obviously I couldn't do what we're doing without Auntie Manya but also we do it with a team so we ensured that we got a good business coach and that we got good accountants,

that we got people who knew about the media and people who knew about marketing, all of those things that we've learned about along the way, people who know about information technology. So building this team to support us as we went and growing. Absolutely. So we've invested a lot in our own education and business education and marketing.

and that's so we've gone through different business coaching programs and we our current business coach we've been working with a few years now and he's developed his team and so now our team is working with his team so we have different coaches for different things so I think that's been critical for me and it might be different for Auntie Manya there's or I always say there's one quote that Marianne Radmaker is her name and that for me encapsulates the whole business journey and it's courage is not the line that roars. It's the little quiet voice each morning that gets up and says, I'll try again. I love that quote. You shared that with us last time we chatted and it really stuck with me, I think, because there are a lot of small business

owners in our community. It's something that our community is super, super passionate about and we are all about the side hustle, you know, and carving and following your path as you were saying. Have you found as women specifically starting your own business, particularly because you said it's been a long slog for you and it hasn't always been a place that's been super accepting of women as heads of businesses or change makers? And have you faced any challenges you think because of that, particularly in the early days when you maybe didn't have the profile that you have now? For me, it doesn't matter what space I've been in. I haven't realised until hindsight when someone says later, oh, gee, you did that really differently or you did whatever,

trailblaze there or something. But I guess that's been my whole approach to everything that I do is doing things quite differently, but not realising it's different. But I guess doing whatever it takes to, you know, have that vision, get to where you want to get to. But the main thing for me has been bringing other people along with me. How about you, Aunty Manya? No, definitely about bringing along other people, learning from everyone else, that stuff about everybody has something to teach you and being open to that and trying things in a new way. That's been a great challenge for us and moving with the times and finding too that we're ahead of the times as well. you've Carla you know with the your nomad meetings in the early days before there was all of this

meeting online or how that's now taken off but you had that expertise that you brought in beforehand and so yeah just about being open to change and but certainly the challenges are there all the time but you just keep plugging away at it bit by bit and you eventually do get there and And if you believe in what your work is all about, if you believe fully wholeheartedly, it just happens because you make it happen. And it is persistence, isn't it? And we definitely have had challenges and find environments and people that did believe in us.

How do you do that, though? Like, that sounds so simple when you put it that way. It sounds so eloquent and beautiful, but we all know that that journey is not nearly as smooth as you've just made it sound. like how do you see your value? I think it's just keep going back to the values and that passion the self-care and valuing people and not not being afraid to ask for help when you do need help because people do want to help when they jump in and they people have got great ideas and it's like finding your tribe really and that's what we did we found our tribe and some of that tribe of the

It's from that time. It's from that time. And so we had all gone through this together and it was like, well, how do we all now support each other and relying on each other, supporting each other, growing all the way and not competing against each other as well. Yeah, collaboration's a lot. So we collaborate a lot with other businesses,

but I'm like thinking of all the women that you have in your network starting businesses and so forth. that is, you know, you get a feeling too of people that you'll resonate with and connect with and contrast. And I think it's really trusting your gut around that as well. But we've had lots of difficult experiences that we've learned from. It's certainly not. But it's also standing up for yourself too and not allowing yourself to be used and abused or manipulated. You know, I'm thinking in particular, a lot of our work involves copyright, intellectual copyright, and having to stand on our two feet and firmly and say,

no, you can't use that. And this is why, because we've had one large government organisation who practically wanted to steal our... Well, they did. They sent out our program and asked for other people to tender on delivering it. No, the audacity. That is heartbreaking, but it is so inspiring to see that as two women in business, you are still able to see the value you bring to the table when others aren't necessarily able to see that as clearly as you can. I know that a lot of people listening are going to be really inspired by that. And I do have a fair few questions for you, especially about, you know, what hurdles we still face as a nation when it comes to reconciliation and how the She's On The Money community can be

a really good ally right after this very quick break. Welcome back to this special episode of She's on the Money. We are celebrating International Women's Week and Victoria and I are joined by Aunty Manya Andrews and Carla Rogers from Evolve Communities, which is an organisation that works to really empower and educate in the space of cultural awareness. And we've been having a really great discussion around this and reconciliation. While we have come a long way, I think we can all definitely acknowledge that there are many, many ways to go still.

How do you feel about the changes that you've seen and what can we do to lift those voices up and really make a difference in that space, whether it's as an ally or as a member of the community? Well, I feel fantastic about some of the changes that we've seen and experienced along the way, because as I say, that gives me hope for the future. But we've noticed a real change, haven't we, Carla, especially in the last five, ten years would you say um a real shift around the whole discussion around reconciliation but and particularly focused on you know the australia day just how even this year it was so different

from last year the sorts of changes that we've seen yeah that's right and i agree and i say the biggest change i've actually seen is in the last year thinking like for example last year in my local community, I was pretty devastated to see they, on the 26th of January, they did a flyover and they had the Australian flag. And then the discourse that was on the Facebook community page about, you know, isn't it great to see that and how proud people, and I thought, oh, I felt really sad. And then this year, partly because I imagine because the government now has the copyright to the Aboriginal flag but this year they flew both the Australian and the Aboriginal flag and I noticed for example a change in that conversation on this Facebook group that

people were very positive about it and Aunty Manya and each year we do a like a webinar you know how you can be an ally five simple things you can do on the 26th of January and this year for that one we had about 400 people joining to that conversation so yeah people are hungry for change. You can see it. It's totally shifting. And I think what you're doing is a massive part of that, which the power of social media, I think, is a big thing there, right? Yeah. And it's a privilege to be educated as well. Like I grew up, I am, you know, very Caucasian and I grew up surrounded by other white people. So growing up, I had no idea about the history of the 26th of January and the education I received at school. You hit the

nail on the head earlier, Carla, you just feel a little bit like you didn't get what you deserved when it came to an education in this space. And it wasn't placed to me in the way that it actually happened. Like it was an invasion. It wasn't, you know, this liberation that I had been, you know, told it was. And I think that as I've been growing and learning and changing, like historically, yes, I did celebrate it because I had no other education. I didn't know any better. and now I do. I'm embarrassed to think that I didn't have that education and that we weren't afforded the privilege of that knowledge earlier on. So hopefully as times change, and you said over the last year, you felt that change has been very imminent and I hope it's been a lot

more aggressive. And next year, I hope that when we have a conversation and we catch up, you're saying, yeah, it's been even bigger, like the changes have been even more embraced. But are you finding that primary schools and younger children are starting to embrace this so this becomes ingrained in us from the beginning? Definitely. People are always shocked to learn that in New South Wales, for example, it was only 2018 that an ancient Australia unit was introduced to high schools. But I think primary schools are probably even more progressive. And Aunty and I just went and spoke to a preschool the other week. And so it is changing. It is happening. and I think and we have a lot of parents tell us that they've learned so much from their children

from school and schools are incorporating acknowledgement of countries and yarning circles I think for us now that there's still while we you know being excited about the change that's happening and some momentum there is a long way to go and I think it's all about personal responsibility for learning and that's so easy you don't need to you don't need to come to one of our programs or anything like that you just got to turn the tv on you got to pick up a book, you know, it's so accessible and engaging the content that's out there. And if you haven't seen, everyone should see Rabbit Proof Fence, for example, about the stolen generation and the impact of the stolen generation. Watch black comedy to just understand the differences in

humour. Go to concerts, pick up Uncle Archie Roach's autobiography where he actually narrates his story himself and he's from the stolen generation. There's just so many things that we can do to self-educate. And I think one of the biggest changes that I'd like to see and beginning to see it increasingly more and more is around Aboriginal languages. You know, why aren't Aboriginal languages being taught in schools? Just through our allies, we noticed that when they give an acknowledgement of country, a lot of them are including Aboriginal language in that. And it's just fantastic to see because that's the next step, I think. yeah and we need to take yeah with this in awareness i'm hoping that we we're then also

able to have safe spaces for the harder conversations and you know an example of a book it's in the not in the australian context but that is a harder conversation but i found so valuable to read was around white fragility and robin d'angelo is her name and there's a recent book around nice races or something like that but we need the spaces that me as a as a white as a non-indigenous person i can have that conversation and acknowledge how i guess our society is intrinsically just set up that there is this power big power differential that i benefit from and that my my privilege has a big role to play so the biggest thing i can do is one of the biggest things I can do as an ally is understand and be more aware of the privileges, the benefits,

the opportunities I have that another person may have just because of the colour of their skin. Yeah, incredible. And we'll have a blog post up actually with a wrap of all of those really great resources that you just mentioned, along with some of our other personal favourites, because I think that's a great place for people to start. Auntie Manya, Carla, I am in awe of what you've created with Evolve Communities, but what's next what is Evolve Communities doing next oh yeah well Auntie Manya we said we when we're talking about books we um we have the book Practical Reconciliation which which you mentioned yep and then Auntie Manya has uh so I've written a new book on Aboriginal languages that's going

to be published by Magabala Books next year and it's called Can You Speak Googaburra because a lot of people don't realise they're not pronouncing the name properly because we don't have that K or C sounds in our languages. It's pronounced closer to a G. So Googaburra is the correct pronunciation. And so I was saying to Carla, I really want to get an Aboriginal language program going through evolved communities where people can learn to speak an Indigenous language. So that's one of the places we're wanting to expand on. And we've written the children's version of Practical Reconciliation, it's The Adventures of Benji and Biscuit. Biscuit's a dog.

Oh, my gosh, cute. Yeah, and so we're actually looking for a publisher for that at the moment. But we have a big dream, I guess, of not a university but like a central hub, a dreamtime hub of information and for allies. And the biggest step for us now is growing our team so that we have different accreditation programs. You can become an ally, accredited ally, and then you can become an assistant to run our programs and then you can become a facilitator of our programs.

So Auntie Manya and I, particularly Auntie Manya, had retired before COVID from delivery of our programs and then COVID hit and we're back in the hot seat for a couple of years. but we would, our model of delivery for leading our programs is also an ally model. So we have an Indigenous and a non-Indigenous person team hosting our programs and delivering our programs, both, we're hoping both online and in person. So that's a big next step. Part of our vision is to have this team across Australia and for the Aboriginal people so they don't have to leave country to deliver our programs. So we're really excited about that. That is super exciting. I literally can't wait to follow that journey and watch where you go

because I feel like you are absolutely flourishing and you're in your peak and everything is, it's looking really beautiful from here. Last question before we wrap up, because I am very aware that I have taken a fair bit of your time, which I am very grateful for. Carla, Aunty Manya, how are you celebrating International Women's Day? Well, yeah, we're celebrating an International Women's Day by attending one of the events held in Kiama. And I'm one of the speakers that will be speaking at International Women's Day. Carla's coming along as well. And together we're running a workshop and both the speech and the workshop are on the breaking the bias as an ally. And this is,

I've come back to the hometown Kiama. I grew up and went to high school. And so I've been involved in a group of amazing women planning for this event. So we're super excited about the event and agenda. So usually we do speak at something on International Women's Day, but it's a lovely full circle for me coming back to the hometown and doing something. That's so special. And if anyone does want to check out Evolve Communities, all the incredible work that you guys are doing, the resources, the courses, we cannot recommend them highly enough we're huge huge fans in this office and it's www.evolved.com.au they can find you on socials as well I believe yes and one of the next things is also on uh

what's it called tiktok oh you're on tiktok no no we're about to oh my gosh is going there oh my gosh that is gorgeous I can't wait I'm gonna go follow you in advance so that I get to see it first. Oh my gosh. Well, thank you both for joining us. It has been an absolute privilege to share you both with our community. And we know that this won't be the last interaction we have with you. Oh, thank you, Victoria and Jess. And I also want to thank, I so wish this program was around. And I'm, you know, I'm not a millennial, I'm an exer, but I'm definitely learning from from your program and financial literacy is just such an important thing isn't it absolutely and something we also try to teach and share in with aboriginal communities we ask a question

when we do the privilege walk and we're looking at the role of privilege we ask the question if you had someone teach you how to get a bank account how to you know because that actually is a privilege 100 and it's something that we so easily overlook like we might think it small but it's absolutely not they're the foundational skills that so many people miss out on and as always just before we head off we'd like to acknowledge and pay respect to australia's aboriginal and torres strait islander peoples they're the traditional custodians of the lands the waterways and the skies all across australia we thank you for sharing and for caring for the land on which we are able to learn we pay our respects to elders past and present and we share

our friendship and our kindness. And we promise Victoria Devine is an authorised representative of In Focus Securities Australia Proprietary Limited, ABN 47097 797 049 AFSL 236523.