She's On The Money - In Conversation: Kait Fenwick

Episode Date: March 10, 2022

Happy Friday angels! We hope you've been enjoying our International Women's Day content this week, but sadly it's coming to an end with this very last, very special interview with Kait Fenwick.Kait is a transgender diversity and inclusion specialist, SOTM community member and public health student living in Muloobinba on unceded Awabakal Country. They're wildly passionate about equity in the context of health, dismantling exclusive organisational culture and centring the lived experience of historically underrepresented peoples within workplaces - what a special human! We love talking to Kait, and this interview is absolutely no exception. We hope you love them just as much as we do.Here are all the brilliant resources mentioned in today's show:Out For Australia: https://www.outforaustralia.org/Trans hub: https://www.transhub.org.au/Pride in Diversity: https://www.prideinclusionprograms.com.au/Sisters Inside: https://www.sistersinside.com.au/Find and follow Kait Fenwick here: https://www.instagram.com/kaitfenwick/ or here https://www.linkedin.com/in/kait-fenwick/ The advice shared on She’s on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She’s on The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine is an Authorised Representative of Infocus Securities Australia Proprietary Limited ABN 47 097 797 049 AFSL - AFSL 236523.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Just before we head into today's episode, we'd like to acknowledge and pay respect to Australia's Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. They're the traditional custodians of the lands, the waterways and the skies all across Australia. We thank you for sharing and for caring for the land on which we are able to learn. We pay our respects to Elders past and present and we share our friendship and our kindness. She's on the money. She's on the money. Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. Welcome back. We're celebrating International Women's Week because International Women's Day just simply was not enough for us here in this office.

And we've just made it up. We've just decided International Women's Week is going to be a thing because International Women's Day just doesn't encompass enough for us. A hundred percent. So we've been chatting to some incredible people this week. And today we have Kate Fenwick, who is a transgender diversity and inclusion specialist and a public health student. Last year, Kate was announced as one of Out for Australia's 30 Under 30,

spotlighting young LGBTQIA plus people that make tremendous contributions to bettering the lives of this community here in Australia. We are so thrilled to be joined by them for International Women's Week. Kate, hello. How are you? Hey, team. How are we doing today? I am so excited to have wrangled you into a podcast.

This is going to be a banger, my friend. Happy to be here. Happy to be here. Kate, before we get on with the very first question, I know your pronouns. I've been using them for a fair while now, but for everybody listening along that might not have met you before, what are your pronouns and how do we use them appropriately? Yeah, for sure. so my preferred pronouns and preferred is such a bad habit to get into because it's just your

personal pronoun right they're not preferred they're mandatory they them or he him you can use them interchangeably the reason why they're both there is because you can use them as you see fit i just don't don't subscribe to the she's and the hers so that's why there's there's many options for folk whatever they like kate one of the caveats of winning the ofa 30 under 30 is that a person is, quote, living with authenticity, courage and resilience, demonstrating the qualities of a role model. Honestly, what an incredible thing to be recognised for at any age, let alone under the age of 30. Kate, tell us, what was your path to getting there? Yeah, so 30 under 30 was a big pace, took up a lot of time last year in terms of

different events and preparing proposals. And my incredible mentor, Jem, actually nominated me for that award, which was a really special moment. And I think it was a culmination. I wear a lot of hats, I guess, in terms of being a student in the work that I do, in terms of like community advocacy type stuff and pieces in across the creative industries. So trying to pick, I guess, the category that felt most authentic was challenging. But I think we went with student in the end because studying public health piggybacks off a lot of the equity and inclusion stuff that I do at work and I think that in order for folk to show up as their authentic selves and have a really incredible life the access and equitable experiences in terms of health care

for trans intersex and gender diverse folk is integral to that so yeah it was a it was an honor to be part of it there were so many incredible folk that got the opportunity to share their stories and the way that Out for Australia curates the award, like recipients, like the goodie bags that we received, like all of the businesses that they purchased the gifts from, you know, really invested in championing LGBTQIA plus inclusion. And, you know, it was just incredible to be able to try, you know, use some of those products and businesses that are really centering our experiences. How cool. So for those of us who haven't heard of Out for Australia before, who are they? What do they do? So Out for Australia has many different arms to

what they do. The 30 under 30 awards annually is, you know, a big one, but they also have like a mentoring section so that folk from, you know, intergenerationally, like across the community can get involved. And that can be, you know, through study, like mentor support, or it might be with career or, you know, social media, creativity, like, you know, things that you do outside of work too. And then they also have, you know, the opportunity for LGBTQIA folk in business to, you know, lend their skills and do some volunteering as well. And then they do events throughout the year, like on different equity inclusion issues for LGBTQIA plus folk. So they're really, they're doing a lot. They are very cool. And I feel like I want to use this space as well

to promote them and go check them out. But Kate, something I love about you is that you are wildly passionate about dismantling exclusive organisational culture and you really centre the lived experience of underrepresented people within workplaces and within healthcare. I want to know from your experiences, what are some of the things that you've encountered as a change maker in the business world, whether that be positive, negative or neutral? Yeah, so I suppose in Australia, diversity, equity, inclusion is probably more of an emerging discipline than perhaps some of our neighbours in the UK, Europe and the US. So I think that Australia as a cohort, we have a bit of a collective mindset of everyone has a fair go and we talk a lot about how our national identity is built on that idea of mateship and inclusion. And I guess systemically, we know that that's not true based on the lived experiences of particularly our First Nations communities, of the LGBTQIA plus community, of women and folk living with accessibility requirements or disability.

So I think spelling it out and sort of reframing that scene across the business world in terms of inclusion and really understanding that it's a systemic problem as opposed to individual concerns has been really refreshing. And I can see that a lot of the organizations that work with Art for Australia are really putting that ownership back onto the systems that are the cause of these inequities as opposed to the individuals themselves. And I think continuing that conversation is really important, particularly as we head into, you know, it's Mardi Gras season at the moment, you've just had Midsommar, you know, and of course, IWD, all about those systems that are the problem, not the people. I'm really interested to know, because obviously there's two really amazing aspects to you and your journey. You've got your personal side, but you also obviously work in this space professionally.

And you've worked historically as a diversity and inclusion specialist with a number of businesses. Can you tell us a little bit about why it's important for businesses to be considering this, why they should be bringing in specialists such as yourself, and a little bit about maybe the strategies or things that you often come across when you're working with them? Yeah, I think for contemporary businesses, it's integral to have equity and inclusion diversity specialists working with you. I mean, it's an ASX-listed requirement for folk to have policy and procedure in place

that relates to diversity and inclusion. And I guess historically, those policies in businesses have probably been compiled by folk that might not necessarily have lived experience or, you know, the background or understanding of what the implication of having those policies that don't speak to the communities in which they're looking to serve hit the mark. So I think it is really vital that there are specialist people or even dedicated teams and I guess allowing those people and their teams to reach out and collaborate with other folk in their industry or whether that's lived experience consultants because no matter how grand your diversity inclusion team is, there's always going to be intersections that aren't covered off if you like. So there's always going to be people that don't have, you know, lived experience in one of the facets that you might be looking to make some change in. And, you know, collaborating with community members for meaningful employment is one thing from a sustainability perspective. But it also just means that folk have the opportunity to, you know, look outside their immediate teams and understand more from those in the communities in which they operate. And that's so important, isn't it, just to having a diverse, like, group of people. I feel like you don't get the range of ideas or perspectives, like you can't really offer

a product or a service if it's not inclusive by nature by your team, right? That's exactly right. And I think, you know, yourself, Jess and Victoria and the She's On The Money crew are very keen to understand more and more about particularly what millennials are looking for in terms of, you know, employment and talent acquisition and retention within businesses. And I think that Forbes and HBR and all the big sort of organisations that create articles and write on this stuff, you know, as a generation, that's why we're staying with businesses or why we're leaving them if that equity and inclusion piece isn't up to par because people don't want to offer products and services to individuals that might, I guess, be excluded by nature of who they are from, you know, fully optimising their experience with that service or product offering. Are you seeing pushback from organizations? And I know that, you know, you work in this space a fair bit, so you might. But are you seeing pushback from organizations to really embrace this diversity and inclusion piece? Because I just feel like from my perspective and I know from Jess's perspective, it's a no brainer to be making sure that you are open and accessible and embracing diversity and making sure that every single person in your team feels respected and honored and comfortable and welcome. but why would people be I guess opposed to embracing the idea of having a diversity and

inclusion specialist come into their business? Yeah I think that it's a big area of exploration right and I think once you start you know irrespective of the size of your business or where you work or who you work for I think once you unravel one maybe opportunity that you have when it comes to equity inclusion it's a domino effect right and when we you know back to those intersections of folks, age, gender, sexuality, lived experience, disability, or whatever market you're looking at when it comes to diversity and inclusion, once you open that can of worms, so to speak, it can take the capacity of whole teams, particularly when you're looking at operational guidance and systems and reinventing different parts of

the way that you do business or your daily operations. it can be really, really challenging, you know, off the back of COVID-19 and the changes that businesses have had to make in terms of their structure and way that they do things. There can be capacity constraints. And I think that, you know, a good equity and inclusion specialist will recognise and work with businesses to understand that where those capacity constraints lie and how to best mend and move forward so that those tasks can be completed in a way that feels really authentic for communities. I feel like it can be seen as being really inauthentic when bigger companies start to embrace it and you just go, oh my gosh, this feels really tokenistic or it just

feels like they're doing it for the brownie points when that should not ever be the driver. How can organizations and people embrace that without having that layer of tokenism put over the top of it. I just feel like, especially for bigger organizations, and I don't want to name names, but sometimes you see it and you just go, are you serious? Like that's not how it should have been approached. Like, is this them getting advice from people like you, or is this them maybe just DIYing it and doing what they think the world wants to hear from them? I have like a lot of mixed feelings when it comes to the idea of the pink dollar around things like IWD, Mardi Gras, pick a diversity date of significance that sort of corporates or organizations of any kind spending

money on these kind of things and i think you know there's a lot of pushback from members of the lgbtqia plus community in relation to you know corporate floats or different bits and pieces for days of significance and i think that at the end of the day like queer people use banks they use health services they use all of the different tools or mechanisms that a lot of these big organizations provide communities so if you know i guess rolling down a street on a float or having an iwd type poster in their window or something of that nature is you know where they're looking to create stepping stones to engage communities i think that that is an inherently good thing too i think sometimes there's a lot of hyper criticism on these

different pieces everything should be approached with a really genuine place type activity but if we keep relegating folk to ideas of cancel culture or folk being so afraid of saying or doing or implementing the right thing change won't occur people won't put themselves out there and attempt to change things because at least by doing the first step and perhaps if they are wrong and it does come across as tokenistic, well, isn't that feedback for next time where they could potentially employ a consultant or have a look at how they could do things better next time? But if they don't start in the first place, you'd never know what the opportunities could be. I adore that take and I adore it for a couple of reasons. And the first is earlier this week,

we spoke to Jess Quinn, who is a very big advocate of the differently abled space. and she said pretty much exactly what you said. She's like, I don't care if I end up being the token model on a runway and everybody else is a tall, thin model. And then it's me in there for inclusion purposes, because there could be one person in the audience that really feels heard and seen because of that. And I just feel like sometimes we have these conversations and people jump down each other's throats before going, have we actually put ourselves in the position of these people that we can't ever put ourselves in the position of and ask them, how do you feel about this? Because I think so often, and we see this, you know, in our Facebook group, we see it

online in a million different places of people, I guess, promoting that cancel culture of like, you can't say that, you can't do that. That was a token thing to say or do. Whereas we should really be going, hey, Kate, you're in this space. What do you think about that? And you go, oh, I think it's great. Any step's a step in the right direction from my perspective. You know, there might have been better if they'd used a different color or I don't really like that font, but it's one of those things where from your perspective, I just don't think it's, how do I say this, as sensitive as a lot of people seem to take it when companies start to embrace this community because embracing the community is what we've been asking

for. And I feel like we are so happy that that's now happening. Yeah. I think that the tokenism piece is a really multi-faceted privilege written ideal right like i feel like there's no guidelines or structure of what you know tokenism is and isn't and like if they are those guidelines or structures in place it's different for every intersection of the community and i think that people basically just need to have a go and you know obviously it's an organizational or a corporate sort of sentiment to want to have all your ducks in a row before going to market with certain bits and pieces. But I think more and more back to that millennials piece about where they choose to spend their time or which organizations they elect to work for when

there's a choice involved. I think that there is that sentiment of like, we just want to see folk having a go because it really does get in the way of progress when people aren't taking a leap to begin with. It's never too late. I would hope not. To go into, I guess, the meaning of why we've got you here this week, we obviously have had earlier this week International Women's Day, and I really wanted to talk about the meaning of International Women's Day and their LGBTQIA plus community's view on what that is and whether they embrace it or push it away. How do we make sure that on a day where it's so about, you know, quote, women, how do we make sure that we aren't up here saying, okay, well, this is what's most important? Yeah, for sure. And I guess, you know,

as a caveat, I guess my perspective doesn't eclipse, you know, all of the, you know, our rainbow acronym, if you like. But I think that what we can all commit to for International Women's Day is ensuring that, you know, there's diverse representation of the folk that we you know consume content of of the events that we attend i'm not really interested in an international women's day that you know isn't sharing the experiences of trans women or women who have lived experience of disability or first nations women and sister girls or those that are incarcerated or you know might be a sex worker or use drugs i think that there's a lot of women that are consistently left behind and i think that it's really important too to remember that whilst

many folk in the lgbtqia plus community might you know they may not identify as female many of us have you know a lived experience of walking through the world as female or woman or being perceived as such even if that's incorrect so you know making sure that your spaces are inclusive of gender diverse folk and folk that are non-binary or intersex is really, really important because I don't ever want the community to feel as if that day is not for them because it most certainly is. No, absolutely. I'm going to go to a really quick break here and then when we come back, I've got even more questions about International Women's Day, but then also I want to deep dive on the nitty gritty of your mental health and how you have such a good bloody

mindset. We'll be back in a hot minute. All right. We are having a lovely conversation with my friend and She's On The Money community member, Kate Fenwick. Kate is a transgender diversity and inclusion specialist and public health student. And as we said earlier in the episode, last year, Kate was announced as one of the Out For Australia's 30 Under 30, spotlighting young LGBTQIA plus people who are making a tremendous contribution towards bettering the lives of their community in Australia. Kate, before we went to a break, we were talking about what International Women's Day means to the, as you called it, rainbow acronym community, which I thought was rather cute. But I want to know what it means

for you. What does International Women's Day mean for you as someone who was presumed female at birth? Yeah, it's a great one. I think International Women's Day, you know, is all about celebrating, you know the musicians and the artists and the folk that have you know had an inherent impact on me about you know communicating and learning and understanding more with like my own mother who's been so central to my understanding and you know early interest in you know diversity and inclusion definitely wasn't called that back then but that's what it was through her teachings as a primary school educator about reflecting and thinking about the contributions that my grandmothers have made on my life who are no longer with us and you know thinking about you know how they'd

interpret the world now if they were and what our relationship would look like now I think that's always a really nice thing to engage with thinking about the incredible women that I work with diversity and inclusion often in Australia sits within human resources spaces which are you know typically or have been historically female dominated I suppose and it's really interesting. I haven't previously worked in spaces that, you know, were quite female dominated and it's a really refreshing experience to understand and learn more about what those spaces look like and, you know, having those mentors around you every day is incredible. LinkedIn has been a really good one in terms of IWD and thinking about the mentorship and support that I've received from

folk over there. Yeah, I feel like it's such a hard question to answer because it is so multifaceted. And I think Break the Bias this year allows you to really consider, as the theme, allows you to really consider those varying perspectives and understand more about where to from here and what your personal responsibility is and what our responsibility is as part of the communities in which we reside in. A hundred percent. And I want to talk a little bit about what you were saying with how diversity inclusion today looks very different from how it did. It didn't even really exist the way we know of it, you know, when your mum was young or when your grandma was young. And I think now we have to recognise that as much as it's International

Women's Day, our understanding of what a woman is now is vastly different from the very black and white perspective that we maybe viewed it from a couple of decades ago. And now there may be people who are somewhere along their journey and maybe they're transitioning from male to female, female to male. Maybe they're still learning to understand their pronouns and how they feel comfortable. How can we best support or best be allies to those people who maybe don't present in a way that we would traditionally consider them a woman? How do we make sure that we're not excluding people from these conversations who absolutely deserve to be there and deserve to be a part of it. Because, you know, going back to that thing with cancel culture, I think that

people are really quick to want to make this about women. And there is, as you said, kind of a traditional view of what that woman is. And breaking the bias, I think, to me really means taking a step back from that and going, hey, like, it's actually much broader than you might think it is. And it's important, I think, that we're welcoming everybody. How can we do that? And how can we avoid falling into that trap of saying, oh, you're a man, you shouldn't be celebrating International Women's Day. This one's for the women. Yeah, it's a good one. And I think that breaking down stereotypes and understanding of the gender binary as being, you know, so black and white is inherently good for everyone. It doesn't just benefit trans, intersex, gender diverse

people, sister girls, brother boys. It benefits us all because it removes arbitrary pressures that aren't real. So I think in terms of, you know, similar to what Victoria does in terms of sharing more about she's on the money and who's it for and what it does is whilst you know the title might be she's on the money or the title might be international women's day really reinforcing that you know your event is for everyone to attend you know that you really want you know even a little note down the bottom like we really hope that you know trans and gender diverse women feel really empowered to take up space as part of our event you know listening to our stories sharing in that lived experience and i think that when you walk through the world of someone who was presumed

female at birth and is now perhaps you know more interested in centering you know personal masculinity or whatever i think it's a really rich thing that the you know trans and gender diverse community brings to the world i mean you know for employers for people that are you know in community it's like this person has got a really you know broad perspective that they can bring to the table based on their lived experiences. And therefore, you know, why wouldn't you want to centre that person's ways of being, doing and knowing at an event that's aligned with International Women's Day? It's an opportunity for all of us to share and understand more about one another and what can be done to break the bias, I suppose.

Good, good wrap into the theme of today. But I have another question and it's kind of like flipping the narrative of what you've been saying, because I would hate to think that anyone in our community doesn't feel welcome because as you know, Kate, the she and she's on the money, as you alluded to before, is actually me. It's not the community. It's not women only. It is whoever feels like they want to come and hang out with us. They are welcome. I don't care what you wear. I don't care who you are. I don't care what you identify as. I just want to make sure that we are surrounded by kind humans. And I feel like that's our non-negotiable, right? You've got to be a kind, open human to be part of our community. But what are your greatest

concerns for the LGBTQIA plus community in 2022? I feel like we've made some progress, but it's from my perspective, not nearly enough. What are your biggest concerns? Gosh, and like, you know, I don't have the stats in front of me, but I think, you know, in terms of housing, health equity, like finances. Our community grew up off the back of generations that came before us of people who, things like retirement, they didn't get there. You know, we think about our siblings that went through the AIDS epidemic. They went through systematic erasure through, you know, all different channels. And, you know, unfortunately, they didn't live long enough to think about what retirement potentially could look like.

And I think that there's been a societal change of realising that we are still here as a community and we need to put mechanisms and pieces in place to ensure that our futures are bright so that we can access the healthcare that we're required. People forget to realise that trans and gender diverse people and intersex folk in our communities when it comes to healthcare in a lot of respects are still guinea pigs. You know, there's so much that we don't know about the long-term impacts of things like HRT, of different procedures that folk might go through in order to actualise as their true self, and we would hate to ever, you know, steer people away from living that authentic life, but, you know, there's so much unknown. And we see that these conversations are centered on the existence of trans children, those different things that might be done to enable those kids to be their true selves. We talk about that in isolation, the media does anyway. And it's like funding and investment in our health and our care is vital in order for our community to be able to thrive and to understand and know more. And the same can be said of women's health and of folk with disability in terms of, you know, we know all the stories and we have friends and family members and loved ones that deal with, you know, gynecological type concerns that, you know, don't get unraveled for years. And that's purely because the money and the study and the investment hasn't been placed on understanding more about those issues that seemingly impact half the population, right? So yeah, I think a lot of the concerns for the LGBTQIA plus community are not dissimilar to other intersections of our communities. And it's just about understanding more about through

conversations like this and the storytelling of making people aware of what those gaps can look like so that we can actually make some tangible change. That's something that She's On The Money is trying very hard to make space for. I think with the podcast and with the community that we've built. We now have more than a million people in this community. We've obviously got quite a big Facebook group, but the podcast is arguably so much bigger. But as we grow, I feel this overwhelming sense of responsibility to make even more space for the minorities in my community to make their voices feel heard and then use our power in She's On The Money to make sure that they are lifted up and celebrated and also supported through the

journeys that they go through. To be honest, this is a bit of a selfish question, Kate. How can She's On The Money better support our community? How can we do better? Yeah, I mean, historically, like She's On The Money is partnered with some great sponsors. And I think, you know, moving forward, are there the opportunities to have partnerships and sponsorships from continuing on the threads of, you know, female founded or First Nations owned or lgbtqia owned to share with the community more products and resources that might be aligned to them i noted that continuing the good work for the she's on the money events that are coming up with things like ensuring accessibility for folk to be able to enjoy and attend those events

and not feel compromised that's a great one continuing doing what you're doing is a great start but just yeah more ways to incorporate resources and and partnerships with historically underrepresented folk and platforming their services and offerings. Incredible. Kate, I just wanted to touch on, obviously you've gone through your own journey and you've been pretty open about sharing that on your social media, which I think has been incredible. And there's a very good chance that there's going to be some people listening today who identify with that and who maybe are not quite as far along as you are and are maybe having a little bit of an internal struggle coming to terms with themselves and who they feel like they truly

are and who they truly want to be. If someone is having a tough time, what would you say to them? Is there any resources out there that you can recommend? How has your own journey gone? What wisdom can you give someone now looking back, having come so far? Yeah. So, I mean, when I was sort of 19, 20, heading down this path to understand more about what my gender identity is, this resource certainly didn't exist. And I'm so glad it does for folk embarking on this journey now or even folk that have been part of this journey for a really long time but are just seeking more or their allies is trans hub so it's developed by acorns they have a whole team of folk who identify as trans or having a lived experience of gender diversity brother boys sister girls

they've created this resource and it's sort of broken into three sections and it's like social legal and the other component has escaped me right now but it's basically breaking down into really like actionable steps for folk to take in terms of seeking out a gender affirming doctor or a surgeon or you know resources for like templates to provide your employer if you've got to ask for certain accommodations to be made and this hub you know really breaks down the sister girl and brother boy experience, as well as providing services like trans vitality and social well-bases for building resilience in a world isn't necessarily always accommodating for folks that identify as trans or gender diverse. So I love that. Trans Hub is your one

stop shop, really, for everyone, for allies too. There's a whole ally section if you need to know more about how to support a loved one or even an employee or community member. It's great. I think everybody should take a couple of minutes and visit the website, regardless of whether you have a friend or a family member who is going through that. Because if you're in the She's on the Money community, we have community members going through that. And the more supported they are, it's not just about having that outward support. It's actually about education and the more education that is going around and the more knowledge about this space, the better. It doesn't matter if you're experiencing it or not. Education is honestly, from my perspective, the key

to things like this and understanding what others are going through. You're never going to be able to put yourself in their shoes, but at least you'll know how to support them in the best possible way. A thousand percent. And I'm sure that there are definitely, we know that there are small business owners in our community and we would really encourage you if it's something you're thinking about or want to learn more about to engage a specialist in this area. You can just go to Kate. Kate will do it. I was going to say, Kate, do you have a website? Do you have, is there anywhere that you can recommend people go if they are looking for someone to provide this kind of educational resource to their team to ensure that they're putting their

best foot forward in this space and being as open and welcoming as a business as they possibly can be? Look, clearly I'm ACON's number one fanboy. So you've got TransHub, but then for folk that are working in organisations or are looking to have further support, there's also Pride in diversity, which is a different arm of what ACON does to provide support. And perhaps I can send some through to V to pop in the show notes for different states around Australia as well. Because obviously my frame of reference is definitely I'm up on a warbical country in Newcastle in New South Wales. So yeah, get those resources specific to the areas that you're in. That would be so helpful. I really appreciate you doing the work for us,

even though you definitely don't have to. Kate, we have taken up more than enough of your time and we're incredibly grateful for it. But just before we go, I want to ask one question that we have asked all of the changemakers that have been on the podcast this week, and that is how have you celebrated International Women's Day? Yeah, that's a good one. I'm keeping it pretty low key, prepping for a surgery at the end of this month. So keeping things a bit quiet, which is exciting yes gender affirmation we love to see it what i want to do is make a donation to sisters inside so sisters inside is it's an independent like community organization it's based off in queensland and they basically like assist folk who are entering or returning from

prison to have like a better integration i suppose either back into society or if they are stepping into the prison system how they can best be supported whether it be for like health issues or, you know, substance use. A big portion of their community is First Nations women and they provide different resources and opportunities for those folk, trans women as well, to, yeah, I guess, have a better relationship or interaction, I guess, with a system that maybe historically hasn't been very supportive of them.

They sound like legends. We will make sure a link to them is in our show notes. But, Kate, as always, unfortunately, that is all we have time for today. and remember the advice shared on she's on the money is generally nature and does not consider your individual circumstances she's on the money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or a financial decision and we promise victoria divine is an authorized representative of in focus securities australia proprietary limited abn 47097 797 049 afsl 236523 see you next week guys

Thank you.