She's On The Money - MONEY DIARIES: 26, trans and preparing for gender affirmation surgery

Episode Date: July 25, 2021

Hi friends - this Money Diary is an exciting one! We've been chatting with this Money Diarist for a while now and V and I super excited to deliver this personal and insightful look into their life. Below are a heap of resources and support network they have given us to share! Love you xxSock Drawer Heroes is an online store for gender expression for the trans, gender diverse and queer community based in Sydney, Australia.https://sockdrawerheroes.com/TransHub is ACON’s digital information and resource platform for all trans and gender diverse (TGD) people in NSW, our loved ones, allies and health providers.https://www.transhub.org.au/Black Rainbow is a national Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Intersex, Queer, Sistergirl and Brotherboy (LGBQTI+SB) organisation in the pursuit of positive health and wellbeing for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Lesbian LGBQTI+SB*https://blackrainbow.org.au/The Pride Centre, located St Kilda, is the first of its kind in Australia, built to connect the LGBTQIA+ community with essential services, including health, legal, financial and social connection. https://pridecentre.org.au/Hares and Hyenas is a community bookshop located in specialising in LGBTQIA+ titles. https://www.hares-hyenas.com.au/The Bookshop Darlinghurst is a community bookshop located on Gadigal Land specialising in LGBTQIA+ titles.https://www.thebookshop.com.au/Pony Club Gym is more than just another gym. It’s a big dream that hopes to integrate safety, education and this very important notion that ALL people deserve to have access to strength, fitness and wellbeing.https://www.ponyclubgym.com/The advice shared on She’s on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She’s on The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine is an Authorised Representative of Australia Pacific Funds Management Proprietary Limited ABN 34 132 463 257 - AFSL 339151.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

She's on the money. She's on the money. She's on the money. and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. My name is Toni Lodge and joining me for another Shop Back Money Diary is Victoria Devine. Welcome. Party time. Party time always. I'm very excited about this money diary. So this money diary is one we've actually had in the works for a little while now and after you and our money diarist, yes. I can't use names. I literally every single time forget that it's anonymous.

This isn't like a surprise to me this week. I actually know this person, which I'm very excited about. Yeah, it's very cool. So the two of you have been chatting over Instagram and we thought this is such a great opportunity to get them on the podcast and have a little bit of a chat. So without any further ado, I am going to read the email. I'm ready. Hi, she's on the money.

I'm a 26 year old living in New South Wales. I work at an ASX listed company in diversity and inclusion, and I'm currently a postgraduate student studying public health. i've been at my company for three and a half years i started in the call center when i finished my honors degree and have since worked my way up also like fancy fancy historically i'm a big spender and oftentimes experience the urge to spend cash the moment it hits my account this has previously seen me in almost 10k worth of personal debt due to a deep-seated desire to keep up with those around me in terms of nights out and material items thankfully i'm now debt

free with the exception of my help debt i have savings in the bank and i'm working hard to ensure i can afford a move to sydney next year as well as a gender affirming surgery so i can get closer to being my authentic self sick amazing money doris you're here aren't you got them on the line of course hey how you doing oh my god we are so good and so excited we get to chat with you how about we just get straight into the questions and then we can get into the pervy stuff and the nitty-gritty a little bit later. Sounds great let's get started. We are so excited. All right so what is your attitude towards money? It's changed a lot I think in the last 18 months or so since the start of the pandemic I've been pretty conscientious about knuckling down and

putting some money away prior to that as stated in my money diarist little update there I was pretty frivolous and any chance to head out, have a good meal, update the wardrobe, anything really. Fair. Yeah, I was pretty keen to let go of the money, whereas now I understand, you know, building that little nest is pretty important. My partner works in hospitality, so at the start of COVID, it became pretty apparent that given that my job was stable and I was able to work from home, I wanted to make sure

we were nice and safe yeah I feel like that's such a shock that so many of us went through during that and like lots of us have partners who are in hospitality or like retail that needed to close and that's such a space that's like well if the work's not there like you can't just do it online you can't just do it from home and yeah like you being in the role that you're in very secure very nice very COVID safe very COVID safe in my office absolutely very COVID safe all right So, next question is, what do you do for work and how much money do you earn? So, I work in human resources as a diversity and inclusion specialist. So, it's a lot of mapping out what folks from different underrepresented groups may need

in terms of additional support and that can also extend to our clients too. So, looking at making sure that forms, as an example, would be inclusive with things like gender-neutral titles or making sure that people feel comfortable to talk about gender-affirming care as well as First Nations health-type stuff. In terms of what I earn, I'm on $71,000 a year. Oh, nice. That would be a fairly new type of role for such a big company.

Like in your Money Diary email, you mentioned it's ASX listed, so I'm guessing it's quite a high-profile thing. That would be quite a new addition to their company, surely, someone that is dealing with, you know, like inclusion and things like that? Absolutely. So, yeah, I'm the first person with this position at my company and I definitely think that prior to COVID-19 and, of course,

we saw with Black Lives Matter in the US, unfortunately, obviously we've experienced a lot of disparity in Australia in terms of our race relations far beyond, you know, last year. But I think as, you know, higher profile organizations looked at what was happening in the States and how they were configuring some of their organizational structures to include folk, you know, working with equity and inclusion for their employees. I think we've sort of started increasingly now often on like LinkedIn and Seek, you'll see positions for this kind of work come up much more regularly. But prior to sort of 12, 18 months ago, some bigger organisations definitely had it. But I think it is pretty new in the Australian sort of recruitment marketplace. Yeah, wow.

That's really interesting. Off topic, but like similar, I used to work in organisational development and org psych. and one of the other business units that would work beside us was diversity and inclusion and like that was all well and good but I just feel like we are leaps and bounds ahead of where the conversations that I remember having and this is like six seven years ago I remember them having because it was very much like women focused and I'd always be like great like cool like as a female like in the workplace they had a lot of things like a women in leadership program and stuff and I just feel like we are actually now talking about true diversity and true inclusion not just like

the topical things that the CEO has been like oh yeah we should do something about diversity diversity is women and men right like no yeah that's not just it so I just I feel like it's so cool that we're now in this space where we're having true conversations about inclusion and what that really means and how to make people feel truly included yeah and in a way it baffles me that it hasn't come up earlier than that. Like, how hard is it to change things like forms to just make people feel comfortable? Why didn't we do that years ago?

Yeah, and I think that women be men component for a long time, and Victoria, you know this all too well, like with your finance background, a lot of it does come down to things like corporate governance and what's required from investors and clients of the organisation in terms of what metrics look like. and it's not actually powered by the employees or the members or consumers, you know, that are, you know, directly impacted

by, you know, the landscape of the organisation. So it's good that there's been a little bit of a flip towards the people in terms of inclusion. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like I love, you know, knowing you and knowing, like, who you are and what you do in the role that you're in. I just feel like you're going to bring so much more value than, you know, looking back on it.

And I'm not saying there was anything bad, but those people that were in those roles were middle-aged men but at the time it seemed really normal to me and really fine and it was just a thing right and now I'm like you are a true voice that knows what people are going through and has gone through that adversity and can see it and feel it and you know really advise on what are the best steps for that because who who would know better than someone who's going through it and knows and you know knows what to look for I think that that's really cool um but back on money diary questions what is currently your big money goal so it's a dual purpose goal um what it's moving to sydney so i'm two hours north at the moment

and i'd like to move down to sydney to open up some opportunities in terms of my studies um as tony said looking at public health particularly interested in things like harm reduction, and working with trans and gender diverse communities, culturally and linguistically diverse communities, First Nations people in a health sort of setting, and Sydney definitely opens up a lot more opportunities for that. And I'm also looking to have gender affirming surgery, so top surgery, and that's something that whilst there are surgeons where I live that do perform that procedure, Sydney definitely has, you know, more of a history or longevity there in terms of, you know, results that are

really great on a larger person. And some of the surgeons down there definitely accommodate plus size a little bit better. I think they're really exciting, but they also sound like really expensive goals. And I'm going to ask a few pervy questions in a minute, but let's keep on track, Tony. Do you currently invest? I do. Part of my company is yeah so every year I've been with my company I've invested in their shares as part of the employee share program. Oh smart. That is good. Very smart. You should start something like that here for me. Yeah that sounds good let's talk about it later um so next question is do you have any debts yes a big help debt um i logged on to ato when i did my tax this week and it's sitting at a tasty 41 000 oh oh nice you could buy a lot

for 41 000 well they already did their education yeah that's true yes let's not think about our help debt as something that goes nowhere we've learned from from that i sound like financial advisor here have we body swapped like we've body swapped um all right next question is a very important question because we've started only asking this question very recently on the podcast and that is do you use shopback i've downloaded the app but i haven't used it good first step did you at least use our code and get 10 bucks i feel like it was it was pre she's on the money shop back it was like it was an old school one like can I change up the email and try again for the purposes of the money yeah you totally could and you get $10 we're not actually promoting

that right now we've just decided to start asking it because it actually is so pervy how much money people can actually get back and asking you like what's your best purchase like I had a girlfriend message me the other day she's like yep cool needed a new tumble dryer and washing machine and got it back and like got it in the middle of the sales and got like more than $200 back or something ridiculous and I was like sorry what I just always forget yeah no I never remember either I'm useless so I hope that I can learn something by asking this question moving forward um what is your best money habit I think knowing I got to a point where I knew when to let go i have a partner i've been with my partner since i was 19 26 now oh wow that's a long time

for the first few years they let me go very rogue on the cash front oh thanks yeah we have separate finances but let me go uh rogue personally and um you know before i dug myself into too big of a ditch um they were definitely there to provide support And I guess I back myself now in knowing that, you know, it is okay to ask for help when it comes to money. And when they were able to provide me that support, aka popping at the time probably $50 or $100 into an account that I couldn't see, just so that I could pay for things like my phone bill. And I know this is like a really roundabout way to ask that question. But since then, asking for help from my partner, then being able to have conversations with colleagues and friends and then getting into things like She's On The Money, through simply being able to ask for help, I've then been able to create these really important foundations to be better at money. So if anyone can muster it within themselves to ask for help or seek help, I think that's a really good money skill to have because sometimes you can't do it alone.

Oh my gosh, that is so special. Your best money habit is that you're willing to openly talk about your finances, which is amazing. That's such a good habit. Absolutely. What's your worst money habit? The compulsion to spend money as soon as it hits my bank account. Yeah, looking for a new one.

I know the hour, the minute that that money is dropping into the account, and thankfully now I've been able to supersede for the most part that urge by transferring it into different accounts, so a.k.a. making a purchase. Dog jumpers, let's go. yeah job jumpers absolutely but yeah it's you know it's a bit of an addiction and a compulsion for a lot of folk and people with anxiety and different mental health concerns and um i guess it's a bad habit but it's also one that's pretty hardwired in there so you have to try and

reroute it by moving it into different accounts that you can't touch yeah it's hard when you get that dopamine rush from being like oh yeah i'm gonna buy something yeah and and um like you were just saying money diarist um almost used your real name then um that yeah I I definitely feel that when I'm really anxious I think I just want to buy something really nice for myself or if I'm having like a bad flare-up of OCD which I I suffer from like I just think oh I just need to buy something nice make myself feel better so I totally feel you I think that there's lots of people that feel the same way as well yeah and it is a struggle we can actually I've got a few questions about that and that space um after so i'm gonna ask the next question which is what

grade would you give yourself if i forced you to give yourself a grade a b nice that was straight to the point wasn't it that's fair i think i think it's very fair i feel like a b plus a b plus yeah i think because you're so good at having money conversations and identifying where you want to be better and that's half the argument right like I say on the podcast all the time we need to get our heads out of the sand and stop you know hiding from it I don't feel like you do that at all but you're very aware of the coping mechanisms that you have around spending and anxiety and you mentioned before mental health concerns and I think that that's you know that's a level of introspection that not a lot of people have and that yeah and I like saying plus

i think the reason why it's a b plus is because the investing portion is something that thankfully through my company has been made very accessible to me i think i'd elevate that grade um something with invest like investing to me is a little bit um you know scary like letting that money out into the never ever and two prior to understanding more about services like ethical investing through, you know, EFTs like Vanguard. Previously, I was quite concerned about, you know, investing into, you know, a fund or a service that wasn't ethical. Yeah.

You know, I've been a vegan for like nearly a decade now and I've got, you know, some pretty strong values around making sure that, you know, things like coal and, you know, I don't want to support something that wouldn't align with my values just to grow that nest egg. To make money, yeah. I think there's a lot more services now that make it a little bit easier. For sure.

Yeah, absolutely. And that's where it's kind of cool that we get to educate ourselves and these things are out there for us to educate ourselves with and there is a lot more clarity nowadays on what ethical actually means. But the interesting thing about ethical investing, and we covered this in our ethical investing episode, is that ethical means something different to everybody, right? Like what you are and what your values are are very different to mine.

and what you've been exposed to yeah like even though we both adore animals and plants and we both you know don't eat meat and we both are like crazy vegans and all of that it's not a bad thing but like we would you know if you get into the real nitty-gritty of it I'm sure we'd have differing opinions and it's kind of like well we actually need to learn that about ourselves to be really comfortable with what we're investing in but for some people they're like oh I don't really mind and you're like that's cool too because we're all doing our own small piece and I think that that's really cool let's have a good chat i've got a lot of questions for you and i feel like if i don't stop now and go to a really quick break we're not gonna stop tony we never do no see you soon

so we are back and you know what i don't even know where to start dog jumpers plants honest degrees like having a partner since you were 19 like who knows where to start but I think that talking really straightly about the fact that you're going through you know you mentioned before that you were going to have gender affirming surgery and you called it top surgery I want to know the pervy details Tony and I were doing some research earlier today just on how much it costs to have gender affirming surgery and what that actually means there aren't that many stats around and before you and I were having a chat before we started recording you were saying yeah that's because there isn't that much and that's because you know the medicare code is the same as

people who are having mastectomies because of cancer and it just seems wild that we still haven't categorized it so can you talk us through just the process of paying for that and how that impacts you and what kind of costs you'd be up for for that type of surgery which you know in my opinion should just be 100% covered because it's gender affirming surgery and it should just be 100% on medicare to be honest i didn't think that any of it would be eligible for medicare i don't know if that's really naive from me but no i don't i just i just didn't have any idea that it would be covered under medicare at all i'm i was so relieved when i was doing a bit of research today that to find that it was yeah but yeah i had no idea but there's so many associated costs and i'm

not going to talk to that because i feel like you're the best person to talk to someone here to do it for us yeah you can do our job absolutely well when it comes to the costing um for top surgery um so just for a little bit of context for anyone that's listening um i identify as trans I was I guess assigned female at birth and now have you know more of a masculine sort of presentation I just you know feel more masculine and as a result I'd like to have my breasts removed to have you know my outside sort of reflect how I sort of think and view myself internally yeah so as you said mastectomy surgery that you know is experienced by folk that have had you know breast cancer is the adjacent procedure to people who want to affirm

their gender in a way that requires the removal of breast and you know that could result in you know having like the nipples remain could result in having them removed completely the scars and the placement of those scars can look you know quite different yeah depending on someone's like body size and what look or contouring they're after some people choose to leave a little bit of tissue in there if they feel you know maybe sometimes they want to have like a more non-binary or you know still have part of that with them yeah but in terms of costing um you know i guess it's like a lot of procedures particularly when we look at cosmetic work i'm not to say that this is a cosmetic procedure for folk, but it is usually what is performed

by plastic and reconstructive surgeons. But in terms of costing, you could be looking from anywhere from sort of $8,000 or $9,000 if you're getting sort of keyhole surgery where incisions aren't made, all the way up to sort of like $25,000, $30,000 if you don't have full private health insurance to cover that procedure. That's so much money. to just be who you are meant to be. Absolutely.

And, I mean, you know, please keep in mind these are looking at figures that are based sort of around my region, you know, and could be significantly sort of less or more based on where you are and sort of what you need to have done. Yeah, and I'm assuming it means that, you know, if you're closer to a capital city, I'm making a grand assumption that it's probably easier to access than if you were remote or, you know, interstate where it's just not as common

to have these things done, right? Absolutely. You've definitely got more sort of selection in places like Melbourne and Sydney and Brisbane. And I think for me, I've always wanted to move to Sydney, as we touched on earlier in the conversation. But part of it is that, you know, if I'm sort of aware my surgery is going to take place too,

in terms of travel time and worried about recovery and things like incisions being disturbed in any way and post-operative appointments and check-ins and that kind of thing. Obviously, the closer you are to your surgeon, the more accessible and easy those sort of follow-up and aftercare is and even things like having your partner or a friend close to you can be really important if you're someone who lives in a more rural region. You know, you want to have that support with you

and it can be quite difficult to ask friends or family to, you know, can you take a week off work with me while I go and have that procedure done? and that's a huge amount of money that you've then got to you know pay for accommodation and food like there's so many sort of fringe costs associated so when you're getting up into those big expensive figures like sometimes they might not even include you know if someone's going to travel um and eat um things like transport and accommodation wouldn't even be factored into some of those figures that i mentioned how dare you want to travel and eat what the hell that's very audacious so that all makes sense and I'm actually like baffled that I didn't even think of needing

care and all of that like going through the actual surgery yeah like because it would be really invasive but I think that there's more ongoing costs than you know I think we realize like if you've you know been assigned at birth the wrong gender like you're going to have costs like hormone treatment and ongoing I would assume a level of therapy that is necessary to make sure that you're in tip-top mental health shape so what does what types of costs are we looking at for that because i know that that's a really big component of making sure that you're healthy yeah absolutely and i think you know just to preface this entire conversation you know things like um surgeries and hormones are definitely not required as a component to identify as a trans or you know

non-binary individual or wherever you sit on the gender spectrum but in terms of ongoing costs things like, you know, packers and binders and different sort of like tucking devices for different people of different genders, you know, they're all for the most part imported, you know, from overseas. We don't have a huge market for those kind of items. There are, you know, definitely a few different stores and makers that have them here in Australia but generally the cost reflects, you know, the import value but then you've also got things like you know hormone replacement therapy if that's an avenue an individual chooses to use

and I believe so everyone's cycles can look a bit different but if you're someone who's taking testosterone on a 12 sort of weekly interval and I get that injected into my booty what a fun time that's $40 an injection and some of that's covered by the PBS thankfully for folk that you know require that but yeah that's another ongoing cost I guess to consider in the same way that you know if you've got other medications that you might need to take yeah in general like that's not a little undertaking and it's by no means necessary but it's more if you are trans and you want to go through this process like I just feel like everyone should have the options and the financial knowledge like okay cool this is how to impact my budget but I think the frustrating thing for me is

I know there are people out there and I've spoken to them in our community who would love to be on it consistently but just can't manage to get it into their budget and that breaks my heart because you shouldn't have to be paying to be who you were meant to be like it just it baffles me and it's not it's not something that should baffle you but it's more like oh cool so we're not doing nearly enough to support this space because if that's an issue it shouldn't be and so for me yeah it's not necessary when we look at it but it's more me going cool how much does that cost and like what are ongoing costs and you know being trans I feel like in you know you're about the same age as us being trans obviously when you were a bit younger did you know like how did you come to the

realization you were like no this is not the right gender I need to change it and like how did you decide that potentially testosterone and gender affirming surgery were the right decisions for you because they're big decisions to make. Absolutely and I think making that decision is definitely tied in to costing because as I mentioned before you know $40 every 12 weeks I think you know most listeners and both of you could attest that that is a cost that you could look to factor into your budget. Of course. But I think it's more of the timing piece like when I was younger if I had to have a day off work to have you know because the injection site can be quite tender after having it done or if you've got a specialist appointment to go and see you know

your gender doctor or whatever specialist that you've got as part of your team because you know prescribing hormones there's a lot of blood tests and other sort of health factors to be involved you know a lot of folk can't afford to have the day off work you know every three months or whenever the the frequency of that check-in is and that's why I think it's really hard to put a cost on all of this stuff for our community because not only have you got to worry about you know purchasing the physical hormones or the surgery or the packing or the tucking or like whatever you need to feel like yourself there's also a component of time you know and what what costs do you put on that when it's at such a frequent interval i definitely think i've been

you know a sort of gender ambiguous or you know butch queer person for forever i came out as a lesbian at 14 um and you know went through high school and i was very lucky that i had a very supportive high school um you know where my teachers and peers were you know really good about who i was and it was almost a bit of a yeah it was almost a bit of a novelty and like i was very you're like yeah i'll take all this attention thank you yeah absolutely i would have been the same it was never a big deal and i think it was just when um you know connecting with my partner And when I did, when I was 19 and, you know, sort of getting out into the world, I was like, this sort of narrow perception of gender, I don't really think it's for me. And I think it's something that I'd like to, you know, look about, you know, making more aligned with who I am.

So, yeah, definitely always been in the background, but in terms of making conscious decisions, I've been on hormones for two years now. And in terms of top surgery, I thought about top surgery a long time prior to, you know, commencing hormones. So it's definitely been, you know, a front runner for me. But I knew that in order to have surgery and give myself the best shot at healing, I needed to be in a really good space financially. I needed to be debt free and I needed to ensure that, you know, having that surgery wasn't going to cause stress and anxiety in other parts of my life. I didn't want to replace one stress with another, I guess. yeah and it's it's one of those things that you know as a girl who I would say I'm a pretty girly girl and I've got a number of friends who do have breast implants I've had this conversation at

brunch a lot um we talk about just the differences between surgeons and you can get breast implants for six grand or you can get thirty thousand dollar breast implants and I guess the same goes for gender affirming surgeries like like I just don't think I'd ever fully comprehended that there's so much more to it than just going cool we'll book in for the surgery yeah like that's not it but i think um you know victoria what you're saying about your friends talking about augmentation you know over brunch like you know i want the conversation when we talk with um you know trans and gender diverse folk to be quite similar with me i'll talk about it absolutely and i just think that you know people um you know get breast implants to feel better in a particular

outfit or you know look better naked or in lingerie or whatever they're interested in doing and you know for a lot of trans and gender non-conforming people that I speak to for some people it is as simple as I want to look really great in a in a button-down you know linen shirt and not be worried about like lumps or bumps and I think that you know let's normalize that conversation like you know in terms of really painful dysphoria and having you know some of those really sort of downtrodden trans stories and i'm not dismissing anyone's narrative or experience but for me there's discomfort there sure i would prefer that they weren't there obviously um but you know it's more about having a body that i want to celebrate as opposed to it

being you know innately bad in the same way that someone you know might want to have botox or fillers or a nose job like yeah you know everyone wants to feel good about themselves like that's yeah that's a really good way to look at it and I think that there's a lot to be done there as well right like yes and affirming surgery is you know necessary but also I feel like you need to be in a position where it's something that you should talk about if you want to talk about it if it's something you want to talk about over brunch like I just feel like we shouldn't have to be awkward about it like I'm so pervy I'd be like keyhole where does it go how does it work what do the scars look like you know like cool I want to know what my friends are up to and support their

journeys and I guess that leads into the next question of like how as the she's on the money community can we as a community better support the trans community because I feel like there are so many of you in the community that just don't have as bigger voices as you deserve or don't feel as comfortable as you should like how can we help absolutely and I think that you know I posted in the community not that long ago about wanting to move to Sydney and seeing if anyone had any sort of rough costings moving interstate or doing a big move with, you know, an established sort of house and a partner and a pet. And so many folk were coming forward and saying, you know, for context, I want to live in the

inner west, which is known as being, you know, quite an LGBT rainbow friendly part of the world. You fancy. Yeah, budget permitting. um you know there were so many folk in the community that were saying oh you know my partner and i live there and you know they've got a wonderful profile photo of them and their female partner and you know it's really wonderful that you know even in a community that's about budgeting we're also facilitating you know community conversations about um you know gender

and um sexuality too like there's so many different parts to you know who we are and i feel like You've created a space that allows people to, you know, they don't need to be compartmentalized anymore. You know, the LGBT community, you know, historically has been underrepresented in terms of conversations on finance and money. And, you know, we've got a lot of spectrum in the community. You know, you've got tropes of, you know, dual income, no kids, folks that are, you know, really quite comfortable. And then you've got people that unfortunately aren't. aren't so um knowing that there's you know a middle for our community and um you know there's all different ways of approaching money and being who you are um is really really positive

yeah no and i love that and i love that you see that as well and like i mean we've talked about it a lot historically about like as in you and i have talked about it historically just about what it means and what she's on the money actually means and that it is not specifically for women that the she and she's on the money is actually me and as lame as that sounds I think that's a really important differentiation that we need to make it's not that we are a female exclusive group yeah no that's not what this community is about and we are about our community not about women we at the end of the day yet started there because women were experiencing significant disadvantage in comparison to men when it came to money and that's where my piece of education

started and she's on the money came from a workshop I was doing because it was created for women because that was my demographic at the time and since then it has grown from there and I think it's really important to you know maybe maybe I would have changed the name had I known how big this would have gotten but uh now I don't regret it for any any stretch of the imagination but I have had conversations in our dms before about people being so offended that it's only for women and I'm like okay cool like you clearly are new here um that's not that's not it but that's okay and you know you need to correct them but I end up feeling quite defensive of it because I'm like no like do you know there's no exclusivity no like where did you get that from like I know we're pink

and peachy but that doesn't mean that surely we are all past buying blue for boys and pink for girls like let's come on and peach it just looks so aesthetic like and I don't care who you are like if you don't agree like come on no but it is really important I guess that's you know something that I want to be very clear about but also want to know you know we've got this epic platform we've got this podcast we get to share stories like this we're talking to you this week before we were recording we were talking about how a few weeks ago we had a priest and then the week later we had a sex worker and it's just our community is so rich full of things that we can learn and share and support one another on and I think that that's where you know that's the thing that makes

me most proud is just how open our community is like what is something that we can encompass into maybe not just our language but our daily thought patterns or behaviors like what can we do to make sure that everybody feels a little bit more safe and a little bit more secure and a little bit more comfortable when it comes to their gender and what they identify as yeah that's a great question i think you know i know language is one of those things that um you know on paper i feel like a lot of people like understand and appreciate but you know as you know we touched on before i have like an honours degree that's in english and literature and poetry um and language is so important right and you know even like

victoria when you go like hi friends like immediately to me i'm like that's so nice like when folk in the community will say like, hi friends or hi everyone, like I've got a question about X, Y, Z. And, you know, oh, I saw this really cute person the other day with a pink top and has anyone seen it? I think it looks like X, Y, Z, like I want to purchase it too. I think neutralizing your language in all situations, you know, when you meet someone for the first time or, you know, if you feel like you're not sure, like asking, you know, someone's pronouns, Instagram and LinkedIn and a lot of the platforms that, you know, your audience uses and we communicate on, I've got pronoun functionality now to pop

them in. Which is so cool. Like, it is so easy and just, yeah, I think that's butting in here. I think that's something that I would really like to ask and ask how that's appropriate and, you know, maybe you can give me some feedback on how I've been doing it. but in situations where i felt like maybe i need to ask pronouns but that could be awkward because you don't want to make someone feel uncomfortable but the way i've been doing it is like oh hey tony i'm victoria so lovely to meet you oh just fyi my pronouns are she her like what were yours

and i feel like is that a good way to approach it or is there a better way that we can introduce this into our conversation to just make it more normalized absolutely i think the way that you pop it you know onto yourself first is really powerful because you're opening up that space by offering some personal information about yourself a lot of times people in our community are you know placed under a microscope or you're expected to offer up information that is quite personal before you know really getting to know someone and obviously that can be a bit walks a bit uncomfy so offering up your pronouns first is showing your allyship which you most certainly are an ally of the community um and it means that you're more than willing to um you know

curate that conversation or you know open that up someone might choose to respond back to you um or you know they might they might gloss over and if they do that's fine too um but i think even to what you said before about you know someone looking really um you know like i perceive you as quite a feminine person both of you like you know you love dresses and skincare and makeup and all these things that we associate with the feminine but at the same time you know you both could have a they them pronoun and identify as non-binary and that's just the way that you choose to present yourself so i think by placing that pronoun first and offering that information about yourself um that's a really rich way to go about it and just you know a little bit of research like

if you know that you're meeting someone for the first time um and you you know it might be for to work or it might be you know in a social setting and getting to know someone you know maybe jumping on their instagram or their social doing a little bit of a stalky stalk before you before you connect um gives you the opportunity to just check is that something that they are offering up to people who you know look at their profiles or look at their you know content um i've done that you know many times when meeting with a stakeholder or a new person for the first time just to confirm if that's something that i can you know get right off the bat yeah absolutely and i think that social media is making it so much easier for us so much easier i don't have

to ask your pronouns they're actually on your profile because i had a look before you know jumping on and having a chat with you or you know meeting you in a meeting um i already knew so i could immediately make you feel comfortable because you've already said out loud well not out loud but you've already said publicly that that's what you want to be addressed as and I just feel like it it's not as like obviously it's massive deal to make sure we're doing it right but it's not as big a deal as I feel like people make it sometimes to be like cool how about we just respect people and call them what they want to be called like if you were like oh hey Tony and you'd be like oh I don't really like being called Tony can you call me this yeah no problem

Like, just correct it. Is that right? Like, should we be over-apologising if we misgender somebody? Absolutely not. No, no, just glaze over it. And I think it's about, you know, particularly maybe older folk, and I don't want to put anyone in demographics, but I think sometimes there's, you know, a bit of an assumption

that, you know, gender-neutral language or whatever is a bit snowflakey or it's like an extra step that I have to take. But when we think about things like, you know, oh, there's a girl over there in a red shirt or there's a person with a red shirt, like we're not actually adding language or making things more complicated. We're usually subbing out or removing words. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, it's actually like less work if you're typing something out or saying something, you know, to a friend or, you know, making a presentation. But in terms of over-apologizing, the reality is that trans and gender non-conforming people, on the basis of their journey, oftentimes, maybe not always, are usually pretty self-aware. And, like, you know, many of us are quite sensitive.

Like, we don't want to rock the boat. We don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable because we know what it feels like to be made to feel, like, less than. So if you over-apologize, it can automatically make us feel like, you know, we've already taken up too much space. Oh, no, no, absolutely not. I just feel like someone, yeah, I just don't want someone to feel like I was offensive or rude when I really didn't mean it. No, but, like, overcompensating, just, you know, glaze over it and get it right the next time, right?

Like, you know, you're going to interact with that person again and there's so many opportunities in everyday interactions to just get it right the next time. Yeah, I like that. And I guess, you know, having friends that are trans, like, I slip into it very easily. i go cool like what is this how does that work um oh you're them cool no problems like it's it's really easy so i think for me it does confuse me a bit when people are oh it's all so confusing

it's too hard like why is it too hard is it too hard for you or are you just uncomfortable and is that just a reflection of maybe you not being who you probably should be yeah um but yeah i guess i'm just grateful that we get to learn and we get to share that and you've been so open and And so, you know, honest, it's, you know, it's really refreshing to be able to have a chat with somebody who, you know, genuinely wants to teach, even though it's not your, like, it's not your job to teach us. But, you know, you're taking the time to share this journey so that we can be better off and be better allies and just genuinely be more well-rounded, educated people. And that's, yeah, that's really special. And we really appreciate it. Yeah.

Thank you for holding space for me. I really appreciate it. No, of course. It won't be the last time, my friend. thank you so much genuinely so grateful but as always friends just before we head off we'd like to acknowledge and pay respect to australia's aboriginal and torres strait islander peoples the traditional custodians at the lands the waterways and the skies all across australia we thank you for sharing and for caring for the land on which we are able to learn

we pay our respects to elders past and present and we share our friendship and our kindness The advice shared on She's on the Money is generally nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or any financial decision. And we promise that Victoria Devine is an authorised representative of Australia Pacific Funds Management, Proprietary Limited, ABM 34132463257, AFSL 339151. And I'm going to pop heaps of resources and links that our Money Diaries this week has provided with us for ways that you can donate and support folk in our community

and in hopefully your local area, you know, where you can access some information and how you can help out, which is really, really important to us. And we hope that you learned a little bit from this Money Diary as well. I did. I felt really pervy, but it was so good to learn and just, you know, learn what our friends get up to and what impacts them. But see you next week for another Money Diary, guys.

Bye. Love you. Thank you for watching.