She's On The Money - Power of Attorney: Who, what when where and how

Episode Date: January 18, 2022

Hello friends and HAPPY WEDNESDAY! This week we're breaking down the topic of Power of Attorneys - a topic you think you'll never need to consider when it comes to your financial life, but one that might just mean a whole heap more piece of mind for you and your family.The advice shared on She’s on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She’s on The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine is an Authorised Representative of Australia Pacific Funds Management Proprietary Limited ABN 34 132 463 257 - AFSL 339151.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

She's on the money. She's on the money. Hello and welcome to She's on the money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. Today, we are talking about power of attorneys, which, yes, sounds a little jargony and intimidating. Sounds fancy. Real fancy, JK. It does sound fancy.

By the end of this episode, we promise you'll know exactly what a power of attorney is, why they're so very important, and what happens if you don't have one. My name is Georgia King, and joining me to help shed a little light on what seems like a rather complex slash dry topic is, of course, financial advisor Victoria Devine. V, let's start with the basics. It's pretty dry. That is basic. Let's be real. What is a power of attorney? All right. So, a power of attorney is a legal document. I told you it was dry, but that legal document allows a chosen person to make decisions and act on behalf of you. A power of attorney, it could be put in place for lots of different reasons. It could be put

in place for an aging or an ill person who needs assistance, maybe because they don't have the ability to make their own decisions. So, think maybe Alzheimer's or something along those lines where you go, oh, you're going to be significantly compromised when making decisions on your own. Less dramatically, they might actually be put in place if you need to go overseas really unexpectedly and you need someone to look after your affairs. It doesn't mean you have absolutely no control though. That's a massive misconception. You can still manage your assets and your decisions while your power of attorney can do what you have authorized them to do. So, there's lots of different ways that you can, I guess, give them power. It's not an all or

nothing situation. It is also worth noting though, G, the person you choose to look after your affairs is called the attorney and they have to agree to act on your behalf. You can't just put that on them. Like, I can't just turn around one day and be like, G, G, you're my power of attorney. every single decision, your responsibility now by. That would be high stress. Yeah, you have to consent to that. You would have to sign the documentation and go through that process. Interesting. And we will talk about how to choose a power of attorney soon. So, maybe I would be the dream candidate to be yours, Vy. But we will get to that. Is there like a matchmaking process that we can go through? Perhaps.

Find your dream attorney. Like, it's better than The Bachelor. Exactly. Lord knows that's getting dry. very true okay so when I was doing a little bit of reading before the show thanks for coming prepared girl I know well I always do I like to you know kind of know what I'm talking about so when I googled power of attorney there was a lot of kind of different stuff that came up and it would seem that there's more than just one type of power of attorney can you kind of run us through what the deal is not many if any actually that that reference is completely irrelevant I I'm sure Sam's not going to cut it out, but G King, you are absolutely correct. There are a

number of different types of attorney, general power of attorneys, enduring power of attorneys and medical power of attorneys are the three main power of attorneys here in Victoria. It does vary slightly from state to state, but this conversation should give you a really good base level understanding. So first things first, we've got medical power of attorney. This allows your attorney the power to make medical decisions on your behalf if you're unable to. However, it doesn't extend at all to any other decisions like where you live or what happens to your finances. The next is a general power of attorney, and this grants somebody else the ability to make financial and legal decisions on your behalf. So again, not medical power of

attorney. Commonly, people would arrange this if they're going to move overseas and they need someone to look after their assets or the house or something while they're away. However, a general power of attorney does collapse as soon as you lose the ability to make your own decisions. So, if you've lost your ability to make a decision, they don't get it when you're not in a situation where you can just make your own educated decisions on a situation. So, I feel like it's really important to understand that that exists. However, an enduring power of attorney. That's where the power of attorney actually continues on if you find yourself in a position where you're unable to make your own decisions when it comes to financial and legal

matters. So, obviously, we have medical, that's sitting over there. Then we have a power of attorney, a general and an enduring, and you're able to make the same decisions with a general and an enduring, but one is going to cease if you become injured or unable to make those decisions. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So, basically, enduring endures after the fact when you can no longer make your own decisions and general stops when you reach that point. V, that leads me to my next question, which is when does a power of attorney come into effect? I guess it's going to be different depending on which of the above we're talking about, but. Look, it is so different and it is a fickle conversation to have, but essentially you choose. It's completely up to

you. It can be immediate, like you can nominate it and then tomorrow, gee, you could take over all my affairs should you consent to that. Or you can nominate when that happens. And you can request that a power of attorney comes into effect after an event or a particular date or a particular occurrence, like no longer having the ability to make your own decisions. So this is a conversation that I've historically had with clients who have parents who do have really early onset dementia or do have things where they completely have the ability still to make their own decisions and they want to set things up so that they're completely in control and it's kind of a way of really continuing that control when you're in a position where you're not in control of your own

personal body if that makes sense like you can set the rules like you could set it up and say all right well these are the things that my power of attorney has ability to do this is what i want them to act on this is how i want my affairs to fall out and george you're in control of making sure that happens it's not necessarily saying hey george um so when my dementia completely sets in and i'm unable to make decisions anymore for myself i'm free for all you can do whatever you think is appropriate like i'm in the driver's seat i get to make the rules and make the strategies and it can be different for everybody however it does need to be outlined in your power of attorney forms which we will get to and i won't get into a deep dive right now okay

Okay. Sorry, I'll get ahead and you'll be like, V, you've ruined the flow. You've done this. V, can you have more than one power of attorney? Gee, how many do you want? Well, you know, maybe a couple. Don't want to upset any of my friends. Leave them out. You can have a few. There's basically no limit. You could have as many power of attorneys as you want to have. However, many people believe less is probably the preferred option. So, it can allow for more, quote, seamless decision makings, I've written down here, and it can reduce the potential for conflict. In saying that, G, some people do feel safer knowing that their

affairs aren't just in the hands of one person. It is such a personal decision. And a good example of this is kids. So, say you're in a position where you can no longer make decisions, but Aunt Sarah is really good with the kids. You adore her. The kids adore her. She's like the OG aunt. you want the kids to go live with her god damn sarah you are so bad with money we have a lot of it so you can split those two things up right and sarah could be in charge of the kids and making decisions about them medically except she's not in charge of the finances because maybe you just don't you don't want to put that on her as well and you might not tell sarah that's the case but splitting it up could give you a bit more peace of mind if you're electing multiple people though

you need to make sure they are relatively mature and can be trusted to work cooperatively if that that word was not published gee i'm not even gonna fix it if they can work together on your behalf so i think it's really really important to pick people that you do trust but again that doesn't mean you trust them in all aspects of life maybe you adore them to look after your kids or you personally because they are the best person to make that decision because when it comes to power of attorney it's not little things if you don't have medical power of attorney i don't mean to get real morbid real quick g but one of the decisions might be about life support and maybe that person is the right person to make that really deep and personal decision that's in your

personal best interest but you're like oh they don't know anything about finances and paying the bills and i wouldn't trust them because they've had a gambling addiction in the past but they're my best friend and they know what's best for me do you know what i mean like just because someone is the perfect person for that might not mean they're the perfect person for absolutely every aspect. That's okay. That's why we have the ability to break it up. Gotcha. Okay. That makes sense. So, when I was thinking about today's topic and kind of coming to understand what a power of attorney actually is, naturally, my mind kind of went to Britney Spears and her conservatorship, because it's kind of a similar thing, but it's obviously not the

same. Can you kind of talk us through the differences and what a conservatorship is compared to a power of attorney? So first things first, Jay, Australia doesn't have conservatorships, not a thing. We don't call them that, but instead we actually have what's called guardianship or financial management laws for each state and territory. Again, completely different, but it does come into that realm of power of attorney. So we could look at them semi-similarly, but when we're talking about a conservatorship, because that's something we know right like we've all hopefully followed this case pretty deeply and i found it incredibly interesting over the last few years to see how it's falling out a conservatorship is much

more drastic of an option than a power of attorney so a conservatorship like what britney lived under for years and years is a court-ordered arrangement which pretty much strips that person of the ability to make any decisions on their own literally financially medically like britney wasn't allowed to come off birth control because the conservatorship said that no you can't come off it like that's a bit corked so she also wasn't allowed to get married even though she wanted to get married and that was something that she you know obviously had expressed that she wanted historically to me there's a lot in that again just want to reiterate that doesn't exist in Australia but someone else essentially chooses how they live how their money is spent and how

their assets are controlled and multiple other personal decisions. In saying that, I don't want to scare people off and think that if you're setting this up, it's a conservatorship. A power of attorney is elected by you personally, and they only ever come into effect when required at a time decided by you, which was not the case for Britney at all in any way, shape or form. She didn't have any choice over anything happening to her. It's so horrible, isn't it? That whole thing. honestly I cannot believe that that was a thing or that even happened like it blows my mind that someone's rights can be stripped of them in that way and I mean there's probably a lot to that story George that we don't understand and that hasn't made it to the media and all of that other

stuff but oh my gosh it actually terrifies me but no that's not what a power of attorney is here in Australia good call out or question or link thank you yeah it just kind of came to mind but it's good to know that they are completely different and that a power of attorney is a more positive option and it is a decision you're making rather than having any of your decisions stripped from you. How do you know who to choose as your power of attorney? You said before they need to be mature. They need to probably have finance now. So, if they're looking after your finances, they need to love you. If they're looking after you medically, how do we choose? I agree. It's kind of like a dating profile. You're like, they have to be six foot four. No,

I mean, Steve's not even six foot four, so it clearly wasn't in my Tinder profile. But moving on, how to choose someone. Obviously, it's completely up to personal preference. You need to, George, choose somebody that you really trust, you believe would always act in your best interests, which, oh, I sound like a really negative Nancy here. It's harder done than it is said. Like, it's easy to say, gee, pick someone that has your best interests at heart. You're like, okay, no problems. But like, oh, do they like, so friendships sometimes change or fizzle out or, you know, become something that they weren't. So, I think it's really important in the same way that I view relationships, like personal relationships, like what happens if

we get a divorce? Like, as you know, G, I'm very excited. I'm planning my wedding, which is far more expensive than I had ever anticipated. But Steve and I, I would say madly in love. Like, I'm obsessed with him and I hope he's obsessed with me. And I can't see a reality for us where we're not together. But that doesn't mean I haven't structured our lives in a way that we understand what would happen if that happened. So, I think that we need to sometimes be a little bit dramatic and be like, Steve, what happens if we get a divorce? What happens if we separate? And I mean, we haven't had kids, but we do have a dog. We've even had that conversation of what happens to our pets? What happens to our house? What would be the outcome? Because I never like

living in limbo and it's not you having a negative conversation because you're like, oh, like they said to this feels really flat. It's actually about empowering you so that you always know what's going to happen in your options. But again, picking somebody that you trust and hopefully that will always, always, always act in your best interests. Legally, they do have to be over the age of 18, can be a family member, could be a friend, could be anybody. Some people pick their accountants if it's a financial power of attorney. Some people pick their lawyers. It doesn't necessarily have to be a friend or family member if you don't trust them. You can actually nominate a professional, which is kind of cool to

understand and know. They do have to want to do it and they do have to accept that. As I said before, G, can't just force it on you. Also really important to consider the impacts this could have on your family. If you choose this individual, could it have any negative consequences? So an example here is you George you're a bit older you've been married once you've got a new wife George and that new wife does not get along with your kids are you going to nominate your wife as your power of attorney is that something that if you're not there to keep the peace is that is that a good idea I can't tell you the right or wrong answer in that situation it's just something you have to think about and you know there's no right or wrong answer but we do want to make sure that

we are picking somebody that's always going to have your best interests at heart. I can't harp on about that the most. And then I'd be looking for someone, G, who's pretty organized and able. There's a lot of responsibility when it comes to being a power of attorney. So, G, I reckon you'd want to choose someone who's equipped as well as trustworthy, but that's just me. The dream combo. The dream combo, which I am not. Turn it up. Trust me, but equipped, no. I can't even get a whole podcast out without stuttering over my

words today, G. What do you do though, Bea, in all seriousness, if you don't have anyone in your life who is reliable and trustworthy that you would trust with all of your affairs and assets? I guess before you said you could choose an accountant or a lawyer, but what do you do if you don't have an accountant or a lawyer? Gee, you're right. I did touch on this before. It obviously doesn't have to be a friend or a family member. And if you don't have an accountant that you want to nominate or a financial advisor, hint, hint, nudge, nudge, or a lawyer that you really want to elect, then you can actually elect that the public trustee looks after you. So, public

trustees are government departments and each state and territory actually has their own and they offer heaps of different services related to power of attorneys, the management of trust funds and deceased estates and wills and stuff like that. You can literally nominate them and they will look after it in line with what you want and what your expectations are. And that's kind of cool. I mean, it is a lot less personal, but sometimes even if you do have a friend or a family member that you trust maybe you don't want them looking after that and fulfilling your wishes it is completely up to you interesting v let's press pause there but we will be back after a very short break to discuss the process of making a power of attorney and we'll be chatting about

what happens if someone you love chooses a power of attorney that you disagree with don't go anywhere juicy straight back into it vicky d no not vicky d how long am i gonna have to rally against the name vicky d till i feel heard in this relationship georgia mate you need to move on who loves it it's who loves it everyone calls you vicky d vd v the community everyone we all talk about it fine you're not at least you're talking about yeah exactly i guess that's what i can ask um so b what would happen if you had an accident don't know what what would happen g So, don't be cheeky. If you had an accident and you couldn't make your own decisions, but you hadn't elected a power of attorney. So, maybe you're like quite young and you just

haven't thought about this like you were. I mean, you've probably thought about it, but I haven't thought about it. So, what do you do in that situation? I actually don't have a power of attorney. I mean, yeah, I know. I really should organize that because I do think it's incredibly important, but it's like the plumber who always has a leaky tap, I just haven't sorted everything out yet, but it is at the forefront of my mind when we're putting this episode together. I was like, oh, Lordy, I probably do want to put that together and organize all of that. Because if you do have an accident and you haven't allocated or highlighted a power of attorney and set that up, you don't actually get to choose the person who is going

to be making the decisions on your behalf, which of course is not ideal. The other possible negative is that you could be making things a little bit more challenging for friends and family who are trying really hard to figure out what's best for you. So, having a power of attorney actually streamlines that process and is likely to reduce the potential for any family conflicts that might arise from you being in an accident. In Victoria, VCAT could potentially get involved and appoint someone to help you. But again, if you've been in an accident and you're not in a situation to make your own decisions, are you in a situation where you would need to nominate someone or are You're in a situation where you're like, all right, well, I don't have that, but my parents

would make that decision. And my parents and my partner get along really well and they would work it out. Or I don't mean to do the morbid thing again, but it's my job as a financial advisor to jump to the worst case scenarios. You're in a same-sex relationship. Your parents don't agree. Your parents don't like your partner. You're on life support. Your parents have decided that your partner and you, you don't live together. So, you're not de facto. So, your partner doesn't actually have any rights, they don't want your partner to come and see you. Are you okay with that situation? I'm not saying that that's your situation, George, but it is the situation for some people. And if you're in that situation, you might love your parents deeply, but maybe

in that situation, because of their biases or their upbringing or, you know, their views on the world, they're not going to operate in the best possible way for you. And I think that that's really important to take into consideration and thankfully we live in Australia so we all have the same rights when it comes to de facto regardless of gender however I think it's really important to think a little bit about family politics what that means and how that might work because if you don't live with your partner or you're not de facto like there are so many things that come into play and it can honestly be heartbreaking in a situation like that especially where it's happening to somebody you love, you're like, I know what they would want and that's not

what's currently happening and you can't do anything about it because the person who has direct control is their parent or it might be their partner or it might be a family member and you know, there's lots of different situations where this has happened, but at the end of the day, it's to protect you and your wishes at a time when you can't make your own decisions. Okay. So, this leads me flawlessly actually to my next question. What do you do if someone that you love has chosen a power of attorney, but they're someone that you don't get along with? So, you know, in a stereotypical like fictional novel world, I've just finished The Paper Palace and all I can think about is like family drama. Oh yeah. Good. I've heard that's a great book.

So good. I loved it. I'll need to borrow it. Keep on with power of attorneys though. What were you going to say? So, if you hated your stepfather or something like that, and he had all of this power when your mother was unable to make her own decisions, and he was making decisions that you didn't agree with, do you have any rights as a daughter or a family member to take any kind of action? Or do you just have to suck it up and deal with it? Look, both.

Okay. Absolutely both. So, if you believe they're doing something that's absolutely in breach of their obligations or their duties, it's completely possible for you to sue them. But you can't just do that if you don't agree with the decision that they've made. So, if they've made a decision and it's actually in line with their obligations and it's just a decision that you don't agree with, like let's give an example of painting a room red and you really wanted blue. Like there's nothing illegal about painting it red, you just didn't really like it, there's not a lot that you can do. So, I think the important thing here is to

have open, honest conversations. If they've elected a power of attorney, and it might be your partner, I think you need to have that open, honest conversation about how you feel about that and voice your concerns to them. So, before that power of attorney is enforced, you get to understand why they might have made that decision and what that means. And if there are any things that you go, oh my gosh, you're catastrophizing as much as Victoria Devine does, you go, oh my my gosh, what if they X, Y, Z? That gives your partner or whoever we're talking about the opportunity to say, well, actually, Georgia, in that situation, I'd want this. And you go, okay, cool. Can you put that into the power of attorney so that your wishes are really well known if

you've got any concerns? So, you can often, and I don't mean get around it as in, you know, circumvent the situation. But if there's something that you're super worried about happening, you can talk to that person and say, super worried in this event, this is going to happen. can we make sure that that's written in your power of attorney so it can't happen? And your partner or whoever this might be might go, yeah, okay, no problems. I just want you to have peace of mind as well. However, a better option than just being really dramatic and suing someone if you're in Victoria would be to reach out and get in contact with VCAT and hear their advice to hopefully resolve that issue. Obviously, you can get in touch with your state's equivalent

for the same service. However, I'm not going to list up them all. You can just look them up on Google. I promise it is super simple. But basically, if someone's doing the wrong thing, there can be consequences. Like, this is a legally binding document. There are legal consequences to doing the wrong thing. But if they're not, it's not very easy to take action. And that's why I really recommend having conversations and being honest about your wishes and what you want, especially if you know that someone has a power of attorney that you don't particularly fancy. Yeah. Okay. Gosh, it's so interesting how messy things can get when it comes to affairs and finances. It's reminding me of the conversations we've had about wills and

what happens when people don't have them. It can be really scary. Yeah. Yeah. I've got a friend whose parents went through a nasty situation where one of them had a dad that needed a power of attorney, but it hadn't been granted and their dad wasn't in control of their own body or their mind anymore and needed the best thing to be done but their daughter who had a drug addiction was still living with the dad because she lived with them was granted it immediately because that was the default because they already lived together and that absolutely well and truly was not in the best interests of that father so I think it's a really complex situation and the best way to circumvent adults have these conversations early really understand

what they are and put these things in place. And that's not a luxury that is often afforded to most people because often you're only thinking about a power of attorney when you're like, oh my God, this big, massive thing happened and it's so bloody horrible and no one's thought about this, what's going to happen. So, it's honestly a really beautiful thing that we can have these conversations now and be like, hey, George, is this something you need to think about? You might go, nah, I'm all good for now. Thanks though. But like, I just want you to have the education to make the educated decision so that you do what's right for George, not the default because you didn't know there was any options or you didn't know there was something that you

needed to be doing. You hadn't even ever had the topic brought up to you. Literally, I had no idea what this was until it came up on our list of episodes to research. Sorry. No, I feel like I've learned a lot already. Vy, can you change your mind if you've chosen a power of attorney and yeah you can do whatever you want yeah okay yeah you can just take it back and be like yo i don't want you anymore thanks though if you've appointed somebody and you're like don't want you there anymore yeah you can kick them out you can revoke it so long as you are mentally capable of making that decision so first you'll need to inform the person as soon as possible and do it in writing and that piece of documentation is called a reclamation of power

of attorney. So, you need to tell them. Is it recovation? Revocation? Revocation. Do you know what? Leave that in too, Sam. Turns out I can't talk. But from there, there are actual copies of the power of attorney document that are in possession of the attorney or the person you nominated, FYI, and they need to be returned and any organizations who have been involved need to be notified too because often you'll tell people, hey, here's the information. This is my power of attorney. If George King contacts you, she can actually talk to you about me on my behalf because she's legally allowed to. You need to pull those. And then finally, if the power of attorney was registered, it needs to be completely unregistered. So, yes, you can take it back whenever you want,

as long as you're mentally capable of doing so. Yeah. Okay. So, you can't just commit to it and then when you're not in the right state, you can't take it back because that's why it was put in place. Yeah. That's why it was put in place. But if you're completely mentally stable and you're like G King and I, we always fight. V always talks over G, so. And vice versa. V, in terms of setting yourself up with one, do we need a lawyer involved? Do we need a financial advisor? How do we actually go about doing? You can do a little DIY. You can quite make a power of attorney yourself. However, I would obviously always recommend getting some legal advice so that you are completely aware of all the consequences of what you are doing and to make sure that it's

completely legal in a binding way. You can either get in touch with your own private lawyer or go by the state trustee. Again, they have the ability to organize a heap of stuff for you. You don't need a private lawyer for this, but basically you need to just fill out a form which details all the info like your name, your address, the person you are going to elect as a power of attorney and the powers you want to give them. It's all pretty straightforward. Then you need to sign the form and it needs to be done in the company of two adult witnesses, one of whom needs to be a registered medical practitioner or authority to witness affidavits, which, G King. Is that you? I have got the fancy signature. Hang on. I could do it. Are you a doctor or are you?

Oh, no. No, I'm an authorized person to witness an affidavit. So, does that come with being an authorized financial advisor. Yeah. Yeah. It's a fancy financial advisor perk. And it didn't used to be a fancy financial advisor perk. It used to only be extended to like lawyers and accountants and pharmacy people. No, no girl. That's me. Interesting. I can certify your document. You bring in your passport. I'll say it's a certified copy. No need to pay $2 at the pharmacy anymore, G King. That's handy. You're welcome. Good to know. Money wins. We have a line of all of us coming to you, Dom, to sort this out. Oh, you're welcome. If ever you run into me in the shops and you're like, I really need someone to certify this copy of my driver's

license, girl, I got you. Brilliant. Okay. So, with all of this in mind, Vee, would you say that people our age, all of the millennials that are currently listening, is it something that they need to be looking at doing sooner than later? Yeah. Okay. You're welcome. But I do think so, genuinely. Wrap it from here. but just as I've recommended, we all get our wheels done when we are young. I think it's really important to do the same thing when it comes to power of attorneys so that we can ensure that all of our hard-earned assets and plans and life goals and things can stay in place with the people we want them with. Like, you know, as I said, this topic can be quite morbid

because at the end of the day, these things only really come into play when you are ill or you are completely incapacitated. But I just know that if I was in that situation, I don't have any control. I am very type A, so I like to control what I can. And I want to know that I've set myself up with the right people around me and the right outcomes. And I've had conversations about what my expectations are. And that could be things from, you know, I want my parents to manage my finances and my partner to make decisions about my health, all the way through to, I want to make sure that if ever I'm in a situation where I need to be resuscitated, I might not be. And I'm not saying that that's what I want personally,

but these are the types of things that a power of attorney can help you make a decision on. Another example of that is life support. Do you want that turned off or do you not? Is that a conversation that you want to have? Is that something that, you know, you want to give that person the power to do? And what does that mean to you? What are your boundaries on that? And I think that that puts you in the most powerful position. And also, I know that this is not what the episode is about, but a power of attorney often lifts a lot of guilt from other people who are in a situation where you haven't set that up that they might harbor. So, G, if you said to me, these are my wishes, this is what I want if I'm ever in situation A, B or C, and I go, okay,

no problems, Georgia, this is what you want. That conversation when it comes to it and we're talking to doctors and everybody's stressed and so upset I go no that's what G said she wanted we're doing what G wanted not oh I don't know are we doing the right thing all right we'll talk to her parents maybe her parents can make that decision and then they feel guilty for doing what they believe is best for me I have told you what is best for me because I know me so I think it's a really powerful position to be in and I didn't mean to leave this episode on a negative kind of note but I think it's really important to do and if you haven't listened to our episode about wills I would strongly encourage you to go back and have a bit of a listen to that because whilst these

subjects might seem a little bit dry or a little bit mundane organizing our affairs can save our loved ones a lot of work and it takes a little bit of effort today to make the world of difference tomorrow so that's probably where I want to leave it George yeah well said go listen to one of our friday episodes to pep you up a little bit lighten the mood lighten the mood um but i do think this has been a really powerful topic to cover and an education point that i wanted you guys to really absorb so gee hopefully you've learned something hopefully everybody listening has learned something i love you all but unfortunately that is all we have time for today so just before we head off we'd like to acknowledge and pay respect to australia's aboriginal and torres strait islander

peoples they're the traditional custodians of the lands the waterways and the skies all across australia we thank you for sharing and for caring for the land on which we are able to learn we pay our respects to elders past and present and we share our friendship and our kindness see you next week guys see you guys