She's On The Money - Sort Your Career Out Q&A!

Episode Date: July 11, 2023

On today's super charged episode Victoria Devine and Jessica Ricci are joined by our friends from My Millennial Money and the Sort Your Career Out book team, Glen James and Shelly Johnson for a community Q & A! They give you all of the top tips, and one hell of a pep talk to get you mindful and motivated about your career! LinksBoldside online and on Instagram Acknowledgement of Country By Natarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements.The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs.  Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN - 321649 27708,  AFSL - 451289.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Hello, my name is Natasha Nabanunga-Bamblett. I'm a proud Yorta Yorta, Kernai, Wolperi and Awadjeri woman. And before we get started on She's on the Money podcast, I would like to acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land of which this podcast is recorded on Awadjeri country, acknowledging the elders, the ancestors and the next generation coming through. As this podcast is about connecting, empowering, knowledge sharing and the storytelling of you to make a difference for today and lasting impact for tomorrow. Let's get into it. She's on the money.

She's on the money. Hello and welcome to She's On The Money, the podcast for millennials who want to sort out their career. Today is a little bit of a different episode. I'm joined by Miss Jess Grucci. Hello. But I also have the team from My Millennial Money, or should I say more specifically, the Sort Your Career team out, Shelley Johnson, and unfortunately, Glenn Jay. Yes, welcome, Glenn. Hey, thanks for having us. Thank you.

I'm so excited to have you, Shelley. Glenn, I'm flattered that you made the time. I'm not the career expert. I'm just bored. Why did you put your name on the book? As a percentage of the book, how much do you reckon you wrote of it? 45. Oh, yeah, all right.

That's cute. Did you let him put his name on 45% of your own work? Well, yes, and also there was this one night we were writing the book and Glenn was in there and I was in there. It would have been about 11.30 at night. We're writing away. he's writing his section on mindset and i'm going through editing out his work at the same time like live yeah in google talks typing backspace backspace focus on finishing your own chapters

before you come and fix mine i don't know about fix completely rewrite is it basically yeah so i'm just here for the hangs well shell is here to celebrate the launch which is kind of recent but Like, it's been around a little while. Your book sought your career out, which I am so excited about. I'm also really devastated. I actually called Maddie on the way here and was like, hey, I forgot my book. Can you find another one?

She's like, I do not have time to go and get it. So I couldn't even get it signed. Because do you know who signed my book? Glenn. I don't want Glenn's signature in my book now. I've worked out that it was all your work, Shelley. Well, you know what? I'll send you a copy that just has my name on it.

I'll dispose of the other one appropriately. I love that. but we're here because our community is obsessed with career questions at the moment. And I feel like in this current environment, obviously careers are really hard. People are asking for pay rises. We're not getting them. We're feeling like our employer might be taking the mickey a little bit when it comes to work-life balance. There are just so many career questions that She's On The Money has kind of pivoted a little bit and we are addressing a lot of them. But who better to get than you, Shell, to talk about career and answer a whole heap of questions from

our community. But first things first, why do we trust you when it comes to career advice? Like, what if you got a good career or something? That is a really good question. I don't think anyone's asked me that question before. So why do you trust me? I've got two answers to this. The first answer is I've worked in HR for the last 10 years. So I've seen the employer side. And I think for many people, when we're talking about careers, we don't understand what employers are looking for, all the things that can make a standout for an employer in order to get a promotion, to get a pay rise, to maybe change careers. So one of my things is taking all those secrets that are in HR and sharing them. Love.

And the second thing that may or may not make me credible is that... You wrote a book. Well, I wrote a book. That makes you legit. I wrote like three of them and now people are like, wow, she's an author and that's what I hang my hat on. And you absolutely should. No, it makes no sense. But yeah, come up with something better than the book.

Yeah, what was it? Well, I had a major career crisis. So I went through a career crisis right when Glenn called and said, hey, how are you? I was on the streets of Sydney. He calls me up. Or I might have called you up. I can't remember the context.

But anyway, we're in Sydney. He calls me and I said, hey, I've just quit my job. He's like, oh, right. What are you going to do now? And I'm like, that's very Glenn. Oh, right. That's nice. Yeah. No, not much empathy. I'm not having a crisis right now, Glenn.

And I was like, I don't have anything planned. Like I've got no other job to go to, but I just knew I wasn't in the right space and I had to finish what I was doing and move out of that fairly quickly. And so I didn't have another job to go to. I was obviously quite stressed. It's a stressful position to be in. And Glenn goes, you know what I reckon we should do? Go on the boat. That and we should write a careers book. And I was like, I can't write a careers book right now. like, I'm unemployed. Yes, you've got heaps of time to write about it. Well, that's his logic. I was like, I can't, like, I'm having my own career crisis. But I think what happened in that moment was when we got the book deal, Wiley came through and said, let's do it. And we were like,

okay, well, this is the right time to write it because you're going through the stuff that people need to hear about in their career. It's raw and it's real. And if you're going through a career crisis right now, maybe you've been made redundant. Maybe you're having a tough time with toxic culture. Those things can be really painful. And for me, going through that process and then writing the book helped me to realize and have empathy for where people are at and how to get out of those moments and move forward and build a career that you love, which has been the case for me. And so I know that lots of people reading the book are having the same experience. I love that. I feel like for once in his life, Glenn was correct. And that was a really

good idea you are getting roasted yeah that's why we're here they call me punchy because i'm a punching bag oh you didn't even bring good jokes what do you bring i feel like i always end up in trouble if i've roasted glenn so yeah just yeah i always do i get yeah because you're mean to me aren't you yeah he will always like oh victoria's so mean to glenn i'm like do you realize that this banter that you're hearing it happens offline it happens offline and both ways like Stop bullying me. How about you start coming for Glenn and how nasty pasty he is to me sometimes. I feel like this is our friendship showing.

I do actually adore Glenn. I think he is great. We won't go too much into it because he already has a big enough ego. Do you think it's like a brother-sister relationship? Yeah. Mum and dad. Mum and dad. Mum and dad.

No, brother and dad are fighting. We don't fight in front of the kids. We definitely do. We should answer some questions. Yeah, let's answer some questions because earlier this week, Jess jumped into our Facebook group and said, hey, we've got some really exciting guests coming into the studio to talk all about career. So we were kind of like click baiting it because we really wanted this to go well. But what we got from that are some killer questions. Jess, what is the first

question that you want Shell and maybe Glenn to address? First one I have comes from Imogen and it says, I hear a lot about looking at what your role in another company pays as a technique for pay negotiations. I've looked on SEEK and on LinkedIn, but most roles don't disclose the salary. Are there websites where I can find this kind of information? Great question, Imogen. That's what I said. I replied to that and I was like, that's a really good question. Yeah, let's cut and paste that one into our list. Yep, get it. So there's a few things you can do. And yes, there are ways that you can get that salary data. It's a really helpful thing to understand where your current pay is in relation to roles

externally. So I think this is a good thing for most of us to get an understanding of. So Hayes have some great salary data across a range of industries that's publicly accessible. So you download that. You talk about them all the time. How good are they? Yeah, they actually slid into my DMs the other week. Sorry, Hayes, if you're listening to this, I haven't replied because I have ADHD and I forgot. Well, you know, Hayes would be great to sponsor the podcast, right? Our podcast. Or my millennial career. All right, I'll slide back into their DMs and let them know you guys are keen. I see one podcast and I raise you three. So I would be getting access to that. The other thing you can do is jump on to a range of

salary survey data. So Glassdoor, PayScale. And one of the things I encourage anyone to do is get a range of sources. So don't just go for one salary data set, get a couple, and then you get to kind of get a sense of what does the market look like, what might be the high end of the market rate and what might be the middle point and the low point. And then you get a full sense of what the salary range is and you can use that in your pay discussions. Now, there's a couple of things you need to consider

when you're talking about pay with your employer and one of them is, okay, what's happening externally with the salary market but what is my role and how does my role compare to those roles externally as well because it's not a cookie cutter exercise no it's so important actually I love what you said about getting a few examples because I'm the queen of one and done like I'll go online and I'll find one answer and I'll be like tick and that could shoot me in the foot for two reasons one it could be severely undervaluing me but it also could give me an unrealistic expectation of what that role pays So I think that getting a few is really important and actually puts you, I guess,

back in the control seat. But like, for example, for your second part of that answer, you said it's really important to understand the role. How many executive assistants are there? They all have different job responsibilities. Like some people might be an EA and it's much simpler. Some people might be an EA and it's an exec and you're managing a plethora of executives and it's so hands-on that it's crazy. So I think it's important to, yeah, look into the job description and really understand it because how many times do you go, oh, I earn, you know, 80k. My friend who's an EA, that's the same job title, earns 150. What the hell? Like, and then you feel like you're being disadvantaged and that you're not being valued when in reality, your role could

be valued at exactly what you're getting paid. The other thing to consider in that is what's the annual revenue of the business you're in? Because you might be an EA in a small business that's turning over $10 million a year and your salary might be, you know, 75K. But if you're an EA in a $500 million organization and it's much more complex because of the scale, because of the nature of the business, your salary might be at that higher end. And so there's a few different things we need to weigh up. And that's why I love getting multiple data sources for this type of thing. The other thing that I love, and I would always recommend people do when they're having pay negotiations, come in and say to your boss, so Victoria, let's say you're my boss.

I'd be a terrible boss for you, but yes. I'm lucky for anybody in that situation. Yeah, imagine. I might be a terrible employee, so it goes both ways. So I would come in and say, hey, we'd love to talk to you about a pay increase. Yeah, I'll give you one. Thank you. A hundred grand increase, please. Okay, no worries. I feel awkward and want to get out of this situation.

You're like, get me out. So I would come in with a range and say, I'd be considering between 70 and 75 is the increase that I'm kind of looking for. If you're currently on 65, you want to move up to 70. So give them a range to work with rather than a set number. Because I think when we go in with a number in mind, it's quite fixed. And that means that employer feels kind of cornered into, well, I only have this one figure to work with. But if you go in with a salary range, that can really help them to feel like you're more open. If the business doesn't have the financial capacity to meet the higher end that you're after, well, you can still get maybe that lower end, but they're able to make that work. Yeah. No, that's really good advice. I feel like the range is something

that a lot of people don't consider because you did all that research, right? And I deep dived into what I wanted and how I wanted it. I am set on 75, but going with the range kind of puts you back in the control seat saying, my role is actually between this. Which one are you going to choose. And I think that that's a power move. Shel, can you talk to positioning? Because, you know, if I'm wearing an employer hat. Which you do because you're an employer. I'm an employer of people. Yeah, it's a nice hat. I think it's just so important that, you know, it's human nature. No one likes to get back against the wall. We don't like

showdowns or shakedowns or whatever. Talk to us about the approach. If Imogen did want to do some research and then chat with the employer, how does she position that in a non-threatening, you know, give me this or I'm going, none of that stuff, but like a... Amazing. Well, you actually speak to this so well in the book because you talk about... In his 2% contribution. It's amazing. The part on pay negotiations is so solid. There's a couple of things. You need to give your boss lead time. So an employer has so many things going on in their head that they have budgets that are set sometimes a year in advance, so we need to consider it from their

perspective. So if, Glenn, you're my boss, sorry again, I would be meeting with you in my regular one-on-one. Let's say we catch up monthly for a regular one-on-one. I would say to you in that next one-on-one, hey, Glenn, I've just been thinking about my role. I'd love to discuss my performance and maybe looking at a pay review. Could we schedule that in in our next one-on-one? So I'm giving you a long lead time. For him to take leave. So yeah, I'm out. And so that means that you then have a heads up of what I want to talk about. And it's not just pay, it's also your performance. Because if I'm just doing the bare minimum of my job, really, I don't think I deserve a pay rise. I agree. And it's so awkward having that

conversation with employees who are like, well, I've been here for 12 months. How would you counter that from, I guess, the perspective where she's on the money and we want to empower our community who are mostly employees, what if I'm of that mindset? Well, I've been with the business for 12 months, so I'm probably due a pay rise. How do we have that conversation kindly to say, well, actually you really need to look at your performance? Yeah. I like to say, be careful what you wish for in like every circumstance of your life. But like, I just imagine like if someone wasn't self-aware with their own role and they're like, oh, everyone else is getting a pay eyes, I'm going to go and ask one. Read the room. It could be like, well, I'm glad you've brought

this up because you're not pulling your weight. Yeah. It's happened to me before I've had to say that to an employee. They no longer work for me. And this was a long time ago. So good luck pinpointing that one. But it was a really uncomfortable conversation because if you've ever employed people, it's kind of like, sometimes you just don't say something about something because you can't be bothered with that argument. Done is better than perfect at this point in time. I have so many competing priorities. I'm not interested in that conversation. They're getting it done. But when you do ask that question, Glenn, and sit down and go, well, actually, I want to pay your eyes, you kind of have to go, okay, let's talk about your performance because

unfortunately I can't grant you that. But also like while we're here, let's actually have a really good conversation about what my expectations are because you opened I guess the box of tricks and now we need to have that conversation because right now you're not meeting expectations and I have you know maybe been a little bit slack and letting it slide but we need to be on the same page and the fact that you're asking for a pay rise means to me that you can't see that and I thought that in your position you might be able to see that things weren't meeting expectation and by you asking me it's telling me you really don't so I need to help you through this. And it's very uncomfortable. I think that is such a good point both of you have raised.

It's this idea of if you want to pay rise, really you need to be exceeding the expectations of your role. So you're being paid for a role that's got a dollar figure assigned to it based on the value that that role delivers. And so if you want to achieve, let's say you're after a 10K pay rise, we would need to be able to show how are you delivering over that 10K in value to the business if you can demonstrate that it's a no-brainer for the business because they're like it costs me to go and rehire you if you were to leave I want to keep my good people so yeah cool let's have that conversation but we need to be able to demonstrate not just what the external salary kind of market is doing we need to demonstrate how am I delivering value in this business so that your business case

is strong and it's a no-brainer for the employer that to Glenn's point if you come in and hey three months ago, you got a written warning. Probably not a good time to ask for a pay rise. Jess is right. Read the room. I think it does kind of, and you know, we could probably move on because there's a good question here from Liv about CVs and Imogen, we will send you a copy of the book, Sort Your Money Out. That's Glenn's marketing strategy. Everybody who gets their question answered on the show today, we're going to send you one of Glenn's books because apparently- And shells.

Okay. But you're trying to own this. I'm just here giving away books. I kid, I kid. Anyone who wants to learn about pay needs to read your chapter. Yeah, but all I was going to say is like the question about, because we see it all the time, people ask like I'm in an award role or I'm in a pay band with government. Don't get ahead of yourself.

That's the question. Yeah, like it may transition to a career question, not a job question because there could be roles where the employer or the company just can't pay extra for that position and now it's just a career question. Yeah, I was literally about to say the same thing, Jess, and it's not a bad thing for you to outgrow a role. Sometimes you've got everything out of that role

and you've reached the top and there's no more growth. And you lead with grace and it's all awesome. Yeah, but that makes me uncomfortable so I don't really want to do that and the easier thing is to ask for a pay rise and then be a bit salty that I'm not getting it. And sometimes the cold hard truth of, well, actually, for you to get that pay rise you actually need to leave is the reality. and it sucks because sometimes you love the culture and you love the business and it makes

so much sense and it aligns to your goals, but it's not serving you in the way that you're telling me it needs to. So sometimes you do have to move on. Moving on. That great question that Liv sent through says, would it be great to know more tips and tricks on how to make your application look good enough to get interviews? I've discovered particularly as you try to move up in your career, Applications, CVs and cover letters are often laid out differently or presented differently and I feel like I fall short on paper. And I'm so curious to hear your answer because I've heard very conflicting opinions on whether or not the visual of those things matters.

I would just send them a picture of your cat and that's very likely to work. In fact, ask Annalisa what we spoke about in her first interview. It was her cat and I was like, wow, you are my people. Come this way. Would you like the job of producer? I'm tired on the spot. I mean, we also like to see V and she's actually incredibly talented, but that's not the point, is it?

Well, that's a values alignment. Oh, yes. So a couple of things. Visually, let's talk about that first because that's what you're interested in. Yeah. So I think there's a couple of great designs on Etsy that are simple, that are visually beautiful. And I think if you can get them, they're like really cheap.

They're like a couple of bucks usually. Yeah. And I personally think you should find something that reflects your personality. So if you want to show up with a bit of personality, that's, to me, really good. There is some things visually that the recruiter or the hiring manager or HR person want to see. It needs to be simple, so simple enough to read through quickly. Because if you imagine a recruiter or HR are looking at this for possibly one minute, they're doing this super quick scan, and they're trying to shortlist.

So your goal is get yourself onto the yes or the maybe pile. so keep your cv and your cover letter clear and concise this is the biggest part I read an application the other day of someone who had eight pages oh my gosh I was like please no no no no I'm not going to go through that but that also tells me that you don't know how to clarify information and really I guess summarize it down which to me is a very important skill totally so we want it to be really clear concise and specific to that employer and that's the big one I don't like the copy paste applications. I like when people have done it where they've tailored it to the actual business. So their cover letter should be tailored to the business. Talk about the business

values in your cover letter. If you Google them, you look on their website and it says one of their values is integrity. Talk about that. Talk about how you align with that. And that can really make you stand out from everyone else. I also think you should show a little bit of personality. That's just my preference. I like that people come in and talk about what makes them stand out. I feel like I look as an employer for a few different things, but it's not really what I'm looking for, right? It's what I'm seeing and going, absolutely no. Like if in the job description I've said, address the cover letter to, I would expect that to be followed. And if you haven't followed it and you've just put a, to whom it may concern, I'm like, cool. So you

don't have good attention to detail. If I've asked you to attach a cover letter and a resume and you only attach your resume and don't bother with a cover letter, I'm like, cool, you don't have good attention to detail and you haven't followed the process that I've asked you to follow. To me, those are really quick ways for me to just like wipe your resume off the table because you haven't listened and I need someone who follows attention to detail. If you're listening to this podcast as well, Shell, I do something real cheeky in my jobs. Oh, you're going to give it away I'll do it because if you've listened this far then I feel like you deserve to know so in my job descriptions if I'm like advertising on LinkedIn and you can go find this literally

right now because I am advertising at the moment for a few roles halfway through it will explain in the about you section it'll be like you have a high attention to detail this that the other then it will say you understand that to apply for this job you have to use the email that's at the bottom of this advertisement and address it to Victoria and send an email directly, including a cover letter and this and that and whatever I'm asking for. Like recently, I've been hiring a copywriter. So I asked for a cover letter, a resume and a portfolio of work. And then at the bottom, I put my email. If you apply directly on LinkedIn, I don't even look at it because you did not follow the directions. And I mean, that's, I guess, a very entitled way to recruit. But Glenn

will be the same. When we recruit, because we're in media and because we are, I guess, so visible, we do get a high volume of applicants. And to me, that's a really easy way to go, I've already cut it in half. And I feel like that's real cheeky and I shouldn't have admitted that, but it works. I love that. I think a lot of organizations who get a high volume of applications have a couple of little hoops that they want you to jump through and show that you've done it. And it's exactly what you said. Hi, Victoria. I don't like when people are like, dear hiring manager. I'm just like, that's a cut and copy cover letter. Don't like it. Yeah. Unless there's absolutely no information provided, in which case it would be appropriate to do that. Like, I just think

if you know that you're applying to My Millennial Money to work with Glenn and Shell, you know their names. I put as the tripwire, like I call them tripwires. Oh, you've got them too. Are you going to blow your leg off? I've never had an original experience. You must have good England skills. No cover letter. I don't even open. I don't actually care.

And then if people mention I've got good England, it's like, yeah, you get me. You are my people. I did it in my copywriting job. I put an error on purpose and then a few people mentioned it. How good. I was like, ha, ha, ha. Because they're like, I also have really good attention to detail. I don't know if it was you trying to trip us up or you trying to make us show that we

have a good attention to detail, but you spelt this wrong. And I was like, tick, tick, tick. So smart. Otherwise, all the people that skipped that just thought I was really dumb. That's okay. You think whatever you think. Glenn, what's another absolutely no-go that comes up in a resume for you? Just high level. Like, and I think it's knowing the organization that you're applying to. Like, I've only hired, like my last round of hiring, I think there was 45 applications. I sat down with three people and I sat down with them based off the cover letter only. Yeah, agreed. I'm hiring a person, not a position. I love that.

And that's kind of the- That's why we get on so well. You've just got to know your audience. And if it's the government and bureaucracy, sure, it's probably going to be templated and different boxes. But if it's small business, The ones who said, dear hiring manager, it was that instant, well, they don't listen to the show. I really want someone who gets what we do. The research part of it is really important. Do your research, get on their socials, get on their website, read their annual report,

do as much research as you can. That's how you stand out. Add all that stuff into the cover letter and be like, look at me, I know your business. Because if you use their language, even how they speak, so you use quite colloquial language, I'd be mirroring that in my cover letter. Because then for you, Glenn, as the employer, you're looking at that going, I feel like they know me. Oh, I could not agree with that more.

And it's a bit weird to read because it's like, oh, they really know me and I don't know them, but I'm going to have a coffee with you. But it's exactly what you're looking for, right? And with this copywriting role, I found the same to be absolutely true because I'm hiring someone that can be fun and a little bit like us. And like, I'm hiring for tone of voice. And the idea that I'm even, ask Jess, she's been asking for this copywriter role for more than 12 months.

I haven't let go yet of doing it all myself because I'm like, well, how will it sound like me? How will it sound like she's on the money if it's not me? And so this idea that people can show me that at the very start, I was like very drawn to a few people just because of that. Yeah. One other tip, don't be afraid to go a little bit further. Like it could be a little video like, hi, you know, I just wanted to say this is who I am. Like it's not going to be That's how she got her job. That's what I did. Yeah.

Really? So it's doing that thing. You've just got to do what other people don't do. A hundred percent. But to your comfort level. Yeah, a hundred percent. Like some people aren't like that and I wouldn't force it. If you're like Jess, you can do a fully edited, fully curated and choreographed YouTube video.

Not a dance. I thought you were going to say a choreographed dance and I was like, I didn't do that. No, no, she didn't. But it was properly edited and like I had a cover tile and literally everything. I photoshopped my face onto the podcast. But if you're not comfortable with that, absolutely don't do that because that'll just show that you're not comfortable. But, Shell, if we go to the other side of the coin and it is a role

that is heavily corporate or government, we really want to get to the point with experience and actually ideally we're looking for X, Y, Z, just bam, bam, bam because you just want to get in the door. You've got to curate your experience because you only have two pages on your resume. Do not go over two pages. Keep it short and sharp and curate your experience

to what's relevant to that role. So you don't need to put everything in there, But make sure you're hitting on the core requirements that are expressed in that job ad. Liv will send you a book and in the book, I think it's a QR code with templates. Cover letter and resume templates. That's so handy. That's cool. Before we go to a really quick break, I have one more question that I really want to get

everybody to weigh in on because there's been a lot of discourse recently in the community. I love that word. Do you? Oh, yeah. Very fun. Victoria ruffled some feathers. So this question comes from Melissa. She said, when in an industry where pay can't be negotiated,

let's say for example teaching how can we make ourselves seem a step above others when looking for opportunities i feel like these fields can seem quite limiting in regards to salary progression without having to increase qualifications and this came off the back i think of the comment that vd made recently around pay rises and inflation and how if you're not getting a pay rise you're on the back foot which are we talking about that today no well let's let victoria blowing the internet up and making them angry. I was saying to Jess, like, I know I did something because my DMs are so nasty. It made some people angry. And I think there was a real sentiment, I think, from people who work in careers where they have maybe EBAs in place and things of that

nature where they're like, I don't even really get to negotiate. So I feel like Alyssa's question is really relevant because there is a whole chunk of people who maybe aren't in a position like someone like me, where you can go, oh, I feel like things are changing. Let's have a conversation about it. So what would you recommend for those kind of people? So you really need to think about your long-term career. If you're a teacher or you're in nursing and you have a fixed level of increase, and once you get to the top of that after four years, you maxed out, you've got to think, how can I increase my pay? If that's what you want to do. Now, not everyone wants to do that, but let's say your goal is to increase your pay. It's what Glenn said before. You need to find a

way of changing your career or maybe you look for a management role. So in teaching, you might look for an assistant principal role, like what do I need to get to an assistant principal level? And you plan that out and you might need to plan it out five years ahead to try and go, well, what are the skills that assistant principals have? What are the things that differentiate them? And therefore, what can I do now in the lead up to that to position myself to stand out? the other thing I'd say for anyone who's in this spot is talk to people who are further along and they're in the position that you want or they're getting the equivalent pay that you want in your industry and get their advice on what they did in their career that you can mirror because often we

feel stuck when we're in that enterprise bargaining agreement kind of world where we've got this really fixed rigid way of getting pay increases but there are ways around it and we interviewed for the book, someone who is in nursing who told us about they went back, they did go back and study, they got their master's degree, and then they ended up as a transition from a nurse to a nurse unit manager. And they got quite a significant pay rise that came with the new expectations of the role. So that's some of the ways around it. And I mean, Glenn, what's your take? Because you've got a really good perspective on this. Yeah, I actually interviewed somebody who was a nurse and they actually did, I think, four days a week permanent and then one day a week

as a casual in the pool. So by just being a little bit creative, they increased their salary. And you know, it's all so nuanced, but I think it all comes down to, yeah, it's a career discussion, not a J-O-B discussion. And then secondly, depending on your life stages, if you love what you're doing, you know, I'll be really radical here because I heard about this example the other day. I know someone moving to Melbourne and they're going to be working four days a week with the government. It's the same pay.

It's a rollercoaster of a conversation. And it's with the Victorian government four days a week and it's the same salary as New South Wales government five days a week. Yeah. That's a good deal. That's a good deal. And Melbourne rent. This conversation did come back up.

Yeah, we got there. And Melbourne rent and house prices are a little bit more affordable than Sydney. Yeah, Sydney's insane. So, look, that's a drastic measure as well. You might bring location. Moving to Melbourne is a big decision. Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to pick up and leave my friends and family, but other people might be up for an experience with their career.

It doesn't have to be forever. You might have to transfer to upskill. All I would say is your career is not linear. Is that what you say or I say, one of us? I don't know. We're not into the career ladder. Did she write that into your chapter? Yeah, I think she added that.

No, talk about your ladder thing. Yeah, we've kind of got the idea of just, hey, blow up the career ladder. One of the guys on our podcast, My Millennial Career, Ben Carruthers, he said the career ladder is dead. It's a career jungle gym. Fun. That's how Jess has been treating it. Yeah, totally.

Like go across, fall off the jungle gym. Like get back on. Don't fall off the jungle gym, Jess. Just don't break your career. Don't fall off the jungle gym right now. Shell, out. Yay, this podcast is over. Just like the bee.

All right. I have so many more questions for you guys and we'll get to them right after this break. All right, we are back. And I feel like, Glenn, the one thing that we were missing on the flip side there was your advice that says, at the end of the day, if you don't like the pay, you can move careers. And I mean, it's very dramatic advice to be like, well, if you don't like it, leave. And that feels really rude. But at the same time, it's kind of like, if you're signing up. And I don't mean this in an awful way. And I think the teachers and nurses and everybody in those, I guess, provider type roles should be paid more. This is not the conversation

for that right now. But if you're in a position where, as you were saying before, Shell, it's an EBA role, you know what you're getting yourself into when you sign up to do that career and then you're deeply unhappy about it. Maybe that's not the career for you. Maybe we need to pivot it. Maybe we need to shake it on its head and go, all right, well, maybe a full-time tutoring role where you control what you charge and you control the narrative is going to work better for you. Maybe working in a different sector might work. And I know that that's not, I guess, the advice that a lot of people want from us because

often what they want from us is the answer that they can go to their employer and be like, actually, you do have to pay me more for what I'm currently doing. Sadly, that's not always the case though, right? I would say just on that comment, like, with all the financial principles that you teach, you know, if you keep out of consumer debt, have an emergency fund, you know, run a lean budget, do the best you can with what you've got, that gives you more options to change if you don't like it in the medium or to the long term, really. And also think a little bit differently. I interviewed another lady on the show the other day, and this was awesome. She was in HR, like literally managing people in HR. She moved to the IT industry and is in HR software now.

And she picked up 50 or 60 grand, work from home, like flexible, loving life. And I'm just like, yeah, this is what it's all about. And I just think particularly, you know, Chapter One, Shell spends so much time on working your values. Like, what do you value? Because I like to say that it's a two-edged sword. You know, it's all rainbows and unicorns over here, and that's awesome. We want that. But on the other side, all the money in the world isn't going to keep you at a toxic workplace.

Yeah. So it's not always about the money, but it comes to a point where it is. So I think it's just having, you know, good financial foundations behind you. And if you're not right there now, hang in there and go, okay, over the next 12 months, I'm working on my emergency fund. I'm paying down debt because I'm going to make a career pivot. I think that's so important. It actually leads into a question from Diony, who's obviously going to get one of Glenn's

books as well. And she asks, are there career counsellors for adults? How do you find them? How much should you be paying and what can we expect from them? I think that's such a good question to answer here because it kind of goes, you know, Glenn, you were talking about pivoting, but how do we do that if we don't know what we're looking at or we're overwhelmed? And like careers counsellor at school, that was really cool. Is that a thing for adults? Shell, please. It's so funny we had them at school because when we're 17 years old,

we have no idea what we want to do. No. You know, we definitely need career counsellors and career coaches later in life. There absolutely are. There's a lot on LinkedIn. So I'd encourage you to jump on LinkedIn, search up career coach. You'll find a stack of people who do it. There's also, I believe, is it Badass Careers? She's in New Zealand. She does some cool stuff. There's some people out there doing some good work in this space. So jump on LinkedIn, search career coach and you'll find good people. Pretty sure it costs like around $350 a session on average. That's my guess. Yeah, that's pretty reasonable, I think, to give you enough clarity to kind of go forward and do what you've got to do with your career and figure out where you're

going. It's obviously not a small sum of money, but if you look at it as an investment in yourself in your future, like maybe that's worth it for you. Well, if that career coach gets you a five grand pay rise, super worth it. Money well spent. All right. I'm going to be a little bit selfish and ask some employee centric questions. I'm just going to steal the mic for a second, if that's okay. I want to start with a question from Zoe. And she said, my boss said to me recently, people get more work opportunities when you're in the office more, not so much when you work remotely. Thoughts on that comment? Oh, this is a banger. I feel like there's a lot of discourse again, out there right now on this. And it does sometimes feel like employers tend to lean one

way and employees tend to lean the other. Jess, what's your vibe? I think I'm a champion for flexible work. I always have been. I've worked in roles with literally zero flexibility. And I said post-COVID, never again. If a role doesn't offer me flexibility in the future, and I'm very thankful that right now mine does, but if a role didn't offer me flexibility, I actually wouldn't take it at this point in my career. I don't think that it should be a reflection. I think that if you're working hard and doing what you need to do, if you're not pulling your weight, as you were saying earlier, Glenn, surely that's showing up, like things aren't getting done or things are being missed, deadlines aren't being met,

like someone's seeing that you're not doing what you need to do, even when you're not sitting at a desk. But I do also think that there is that age old thing of sometimes the people who progress fastest or highest in a company or an industry are ones who are not doing so necessarily because they're the best at their job. It's because they have built relationships with people. It's because they're a networker or a connector. They're providing values or vibes, if you will, in other ways. And so if you are working remotely, it's much harder for you to do that. But it's hard because they don't think that that necessarily should be the case, you know? You're so spot on. two big things. Visibility matters. So your visibility in the organization matters. And

that's why I think there's quite a lot of bias towards people working in the office. So leaders, it probably makes their job easier in some ways. And it's this whole thing of, if I see you, you must be performing. Total crap, right? But there's an assumption around that of, if you're there, you must be working hard. And I think that's why there's this bias and tendency towards, let's get everyone back into the office because we're all here. We all must be working. And the thing I think we need to talk about more is, well, how do we be visible when we're remote working? How do I get proximity to the boss who's making decisions about promotions when I'm working remotely? So we need to be active on Zoom. Like if you're working remotely,

turn your camera on. Don't be that person who never turns it on. So show up. Now I know there's reasons sometimes maybe people don't turn their cameras on and that's fine. But what I want you to do is how do I become more visible here? How do I stand out? And yes, going into the office kind of helps you do that. I'm a big, big believer in full-time remote work. Like I work remotely full-time. All for it. But I understand why leaders want people to come back into the office. So there's two sides to that coin. I guess my main thing is how do you, to your point Jess, build relationships, build equity in that business socially, build those networks because they're the things that are going to help you when that promotion opportunity comes up. You want to be

front of mind for the decision maker. And the way that you do that is you've been visible, you've demonstrated your credibility, and those things together mean that you land the job. I think as well, the craft or the trade or the occupation that you do, that needs to take care of itself like that's the hygiene factor you're really good at your job yeah and that whole front of mind thing if it is a remote team the front of mind stuff will probably more be happening on the social side like hey we all work remote here i reckon at least once every two weeks we just come into the city whoever can have a coffee i think the being noticing. It doesn't have to be work noticed. It can be social. Because the hygiene factor is

you're good at your job. Yeah, I agree. Like it should just be a given. How do you manage it? Because your team is pretty much entirely remote and obviously you're on the employer side. Yeah. So I've made the call that at least twice a year we come together. I love that. Every first afternoon because we do a four-day work week. We do our afternoon chat and we call it two good things. And everyone goes around and says, what are two good things that have happened this week that are in line with one of our values and why so we do that and then yeah we do a mid-year together and then a christmas party together yeah because it is expensive to fly

everyone into if they're around the country and not all in the same state where you can kind of all get on a train or get in a car it definitely would be a lot harder i honestly don't think sometimes the fact that you're a remote worker like the boss that said that to the questioner you can be present and be a remote team and get those opportunities. Yeah. I like that. Changing the old school mindset. Next, I've got one from Melanie who said, when should I move on from a job? When I'm not learning more, when I can't get any more pay rises, et cetera. Yeah, that's a great question. I've been thinking heaps lately, Jess, about this idea of grit or quit. Like when do you like stick it out

and show some grit and stay with an employer and when do you quit? Because it's a really hard thing to know. So there's a couple of signs that you need to stick it out and show some grit. The first thing would be if you haven't quite mastered the role. So if you haven't developed that sense of mastery in the role, I think there's more room for you to learn and grow. So do that sense check of how have I developed here? How have I grown? And the second thing would be, do you enjoy it? Do you like the job? Because if you like the job and you like the people you work with and you're thinking, maybe I need to make a career ladder move. Well, I challenge you on that because sometimes the whole thing with the career ladder makes us feel like

we need to be climbing when really we're happy where we are, but there's this artificial pressure externally that makes us feel like we have to be getting the next promotion, learning the next pay rise. When, if you enjoy the place that you work at, if you enjoy the people that you work with, if you've got a good boss, to me, they're all massive ticks. And I would be really thinking whether, you know, you should be leaving if those are the things you've got. Now, on the flip side, when should you quit a job? There's a few signs. Number one, you've stopped growing. So if you've stopped growing, you're not learning. Those are signs that it might be time to move on or find a different job. The other sign is if you're not getting considered for opportunities.

So let's say you're putting your hand up for promotions, maybe internally, and you keep getting knocked back. That's a signal that maybe there isn't that room for you to progress there, and in which case maybe a move externally is right. The other thing would be if it's a toxic culture. So signs of a toxic culture would be things like gaslighting, gossip, really a lot of ego, deceptive behaviours. Any of those signs, those to me are things where you need to be waving the big red flag

and going, okay, if management don't want to hear the feedback on the culture, probably some signs that you need to move on. That actually leads really nicely into the next question, which was from Annalise, which said, how do I navigate being overlooked as a young female? I'm often infantilised, underestimated and uncredited, and it's frustrating. That speaks to me about culture. Yeah, that's what I was going to say. Yeah, because that's ridiculous.

I mean, just on that last question, and then Shel can answer Annalisa's question, I really think it's important. Like, another one is, like, you're bored. Like, I've been bored lately. It's rotten. I'm, you know, doing other things to, you know, stimulate myself. But I think it's so important to run to something, not from something. I like that a lot. So, really, you know, dig into the values, you know, chapter one of the book, all about values.

go back to your bedrock what do I value they might not be in the place that could be making you not fit because you know I'm an introvert and they want me to dance on the desk every day make sure you're just running to something not from something yeah that is such good advice I agree you should write a book about that so to Annalise's question yeah you're right Glenn speaks to culture. Sometimes, I was talking to someone the other day, they work in construction industry, young female, and they had had some challenges, I guess, with this similar dynamic of not feeling heard in a very male-dominated industry and feeling like there's a bit of condescension. And one of my, I guess, recommendations was sometimes we need to be

quite overt in challenging behaviours that I think are not okay. Call it out, sis. Call it out. So I would be specific and go, hey, when you said that, that made me feel like my opinion wasn't valued. Or the other day in that meeting, I noticed that you interrupted me and I feel like my ideas aren't heard here. Can we talk about that? Because we need to challenge the behavior and often people haven't received that feedback. And I would encourage this person, if you're feeling condescended or like your opinion isn't valid because of your age, your voice matters. And we want to hear you. And actually, organizations need to hear from their Gen Z employees. They need to hear from these younger voices who have great perspective,

who have fresh ideas and new insights. They need that. And they're missing out by not hearing your perspective. I think we need to look at how do we present ideas in a way that sets them up to be received. So maybe watch in your organization for those social cues in meetings and see whose ideas get heard the most and why. And understand what are some of the dynamics that are going on. Just observe and see what that tells you about the culture, because that can give you insights into, okay, is it the way that I'm presenting the ideas or is it simply that these people aren't going to hear me, in which case, probably don't want to stay there long term. Yeah.

And I would say to all the, you know, business owners that are listening, because you've got a lot of people that, you know, own businesses and employ people, a lot of the times people who run businesses, we're just steamrollers by nature, right? And what I did was, you know, got Shell in to facilitate a session with my team and I was just one of the team. Yeah. So I shut my trap. He did.

Did he really do that? Yeah, he really did. And one of our employees, you know, they're meek, quiet, and, you know, that person got to say some really gold stuff that might not have come out if. You facilitated it. If I facilitated it, it would be Michael Scott all day long. It can be intimidating.

Like as an employee, it can definitely be intimidating raising things. No matter how good the culture is, no matter how supportive somebody is. But if you've got to raise something, and Shell can probably speak to it, but, like, you've got to slowly practice in your career to not, one, put up with crap. And that takes a bit of time. And courage. And courage. And, you know, the question I would say, if it is appropriate, can you talk with your boss, even if it's over a coffee or go for a walk so it's on neutral territory, and go, hey, I've got to ask you something really awkward. Like, is it just me?

I don't know. Like, we're not saying, I don't know, just communication and chill. We've got a really good episode that I'd point you to on my millennial career. It's having tough conversations with your boss. And so it's how do we do those conversations well upwards because they're challenging and we feel nervous to bring feedback. But again, I'll say your voice matters and we actually, leaders need to hear this truth. so and the truth is you know that questioner could work for some misogynists who doesn't value her and she needs to get out of there yesterday yeah like that's also it is absolutely a chance so yeah

and if you are a business owner and you do want to get someone out shall is fantastic and very welcoming so we'll have the link in the show notes so you can check out and reach out if that's maybe something you want to facilitate like glenn did with his team before we head off the last question I have, I think is going to kind of tie everything off in a nice little bow. It comes from Jasmine and she wants to know, how have you guys fostered positive team environments that motivate people to get the job done, want to turn up and want to contribute to the good team culture and have a little bit of fun? Do you do quizzes or trivia in the mornings, toolbox meetings, gratitude walls? What helps to make your team feel special and bonded? Okay. A couple of things. And these are

so basic, but far out people don't do this. Number one, give positive feedback. Yeah, for sure. You know, I keep thinking positive feedback is one of the most powerful forces. I can be quite cynical by nature. And so I've had to learn this as a skill. I reckon in my early days of being a leader, I was the worst at this. Like I'd always be about what are all the things you need to fix? But really one of the things I've learned is we need to understand each other's strengths and we need to call them out and praise people for the good things they've done. Ping pong tables, don't care. Beanbags, don't give a shit.

But it's a cool start-up, Cheryl. Like, honestly, no amount of pizza parties is going to fix a toxic culture. What will have a huge impact is if you find the strengths of your employees, you call them out, you encourage them on it, you call out your team's strengths. And the other thing that I would encourage you to do is have regular one-on-one catch-ups. Regular one-on-one catch-ups are one of my all-time favorite things. It could just be 15 minutes. Get to know people personally on your team.

Don't think of it as a transactional relationship. The more relational equity you've invested into that role, the stronger the culture, the stronger the dynamic, the more you'll feel seen, the more they'll feel seen, the best thing ever. Yeah. If you feel like you know the people around you, you're more likely to like them and get on with them and relate with them better it can be hard like I'm quite introverted and I've worked in big office teams and spaces before which I did not love but I remember whenever you had someone that you both went for the same football team or you both had the same hobby or watched the same tv show like and it's just something that had come up in an incidental conversation or it'd come up in a one-on-one with a manager and then when you

saw them during the week be like oh did you catch the new episode like what did you think like I'm dying, it makes it feel like a little bit more than just a, I'm an employee and you're my boss. Like it gives you something that makes you feel connected, I guess. The connection. That's the point. Yeah. And I think Jasmine, she may be a team leader. I would say a couple of things, bring the team on the journey. Be like, hey, we want to make this a little bit more engaging. Let's have a catch up and let's all just put some ideas on what we can do. And everyone, we can write them down anonymously. One or two things, we'll put them in a box or whatever.

Like if everyone's like extrovert and party time, awesome. Just do all that. But I think it is just understanding your team, getting that buy-in. I know on my team, there's someone who you could not praise that person enough publicly where someone else might just- Feel awkward about it. Yeah. I just think take your team with you. It's a relationship. Like even if you are an employee and yes, it's your job and yes, it's paying the bills. Like ultimately, if you can feel like you enjoy what you do and if you feel like you

have buy-in or you believe in what you're doing, I think that makes the experience more enjoyable for everybody. And I would just say to anyone that's still listening, like we spend so much time at work and in our career and our job. If it's not ideal right now today, you might not be able to change your job, your career, your life tomorrow, but please take one step. And that could be just thinking, well, in three years time, would I be happy that I didn't put up with this crap and I started to look elsewhere? Or what advice would you give your best friend about your situation? Just let's start just

thinking because, you know, all the financial stuff, it is hard, it is tight out there. Yeah. Just always look back from a couple of years so we're not having regrets and we're not you know oh I've been here two years too long and I'm sick of this yeah there's that Daniel Pink quote that we talk about in the book and it's such a nice way to round out this conversation and it's the biggest regrets in life are the failures of boldness so if you're thinking right now I should make a change I should make a change and that's been something on your mind for ages the biggest regrets aren't the things that we did do the biggest regrets are the things we didn't do

Wow. Guys, it has been an absolute pleasure. Shell, thanks for joining us. Glenn, thanks for coming along. Thank you. Honestly, I could talk about career stuff all day, but as I always say, unfortunately, that is all we have time for today. Please come back. Please come and hang out on our show again. I feel like career content is so important for our community to grow and learn and be better, I guess, in life, but also just in their careers. Like you deserve to have a happy career. You deserve to not be stressed about things and not, you know, lose sleep at night when you're stressed about having a conversation with your manager that you definitely shouldn't lose sleep over.

So I think it's one so important. But Shell, let's do a little shameless plug. You wrote, arguably, an entire book. Where can we buy it? At least 55% of one. I'm going to put my affiliate link to your book in my show notes so that I'm benefiting from this. So if anybody wants me to benefit off Shell and Glenn's book, that's how. But where can we find it? Where can we find more of you? So you can find the book, Sort Your Career Out, wherever you get good books from.

And you can find me on LinkedIn or go to our podcast, My Millennial Career. And Instagram. Yep, bold side. I love following you guys. It's really helpful. You are the best, Jess. Thank you. Thank you, Victoria.

We'll see you guys on Friday, but we'll see Glenn and Shell hopefully very soon. Bye. Bye. the advice shared on she's on the money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances she's on the money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision if you do choose to buy a financial product read the pds tmd and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs victoria divine and she's on the money are authorized representatives of money

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