She's On The Money - The Impacts of Gambling

Episode Date: October 19, 2021

Happy Wednesday friends! Today we're talking about the effects of gambling in our community, how to recognise problem gambling and how to help a loved one in this situation. This episode might be a little triggering for some, so if gambling and how can can affect us is a bit difficult for you to hear about at the moment, we suggest giving this one a miss.We refer to Gambler's Help and the National Debt Helpline many times in this eps as great places to start if you or someone you love need a helping hand or some advice.The advice shared on She’s on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She’s on The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine is an Authorised Representative of Australia Pacific Funds Management Proprietary Limited ABN 34 132 463 257 - AFSL 339151.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

She's on the money. She's on the money. Hello and welcome to She's on the money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. Today we're tackling a really tough topic. It's a topic that has impacted so many of our listeners in devastating ways and it's a topic we think it's time to talk about. Gambling. Over the next 40 minutes or so we're going to talk through the impacts gambling addiction can have on individuals and their loved ones and we'll touch on why it's such a prevalent issue in Australia today.

Plus we're also going to discuss exactly what you can do to help yourself or someone you love recover from problem gambling. My name is Georgia King and joining me today is Victoria Devine. V, before we get into things, let's hear how gambling has impacted our community. Hi G, I was in a relationship with my ex-boyfriend for about two years. He was a full-on gambling addict, would have spent over $150,000 on gambling. I didn't find out until about a year into the relationship because he lied to me about everything, was hiding everything, used to borrow money from me all the time, nothing ever really added up. Also found out through a friend of a friend that he owed his ex-girlfriend $42,000. We worked together and worked everything out

once I found out. I tried to help him and I took charge of all of his finances, had charge of all his bank accounts and sent him money only when he needed it so he didn't spend anything. We finally saved up for a trip to go overseas together to Bali. We were over there for a couple of weeks and the last few days that we were there i just sort of had an epiphany i was thinking what the hell am i doing why am i doing this to myself and then we broke up um a couple days after we got home hey georgia so i dated a guy for a year and a half after a year together i worked out that he was at least sixty thousand dollars in debt from gambling he spent most weeks um weekends when we weren't together at the casino um and after finding out

the full extent of his debt, he had not got a plan or any drive to get himself out of the situation that I had to make the decision to get out of that relationship as it was something that I couldn't continue with. Hi, she's on the money. I am 22 years old and would like to share my story on gambling addiction, something that touches my heart. I was only 15 years old when I became aware of my mother's gambling addiction. She had forged around $450,000 worth of checks from her workplace to fund her gambling addiction this resulted in a criminal investigation and imprisonment for nine months i'm so pleased to hear that you were bringing awareness to this difficult topic and raising more awareness on gambling addictions hi ladies i'm a full-time student and i work

casually in a pub as a bar and gaming attendant i had never really experienced gambling addiction firsthand until i started working in the industry i've never experienced it myself however it's something i see every single day the same people coming in to play the pokies at 11 a.m and not leaving until 5 p.m or later some even going around playing the leftover money on other people's machines just in case it goes off i've seen people win sums from a thousand dollars to thirty thousand dollars and some who put the whole amount back through the machines we wear pages so they don't have to get up from the machine for a drink so they keep putting their money through all soft drinks coffees and teas are free and we provide bar snacks free of charge to gaming patrons i love

the social aspect of my job but it's so sad to see people throwing away their hard-earned money or asking to borrow from other patrons to feed their addictions my brother has always been fantastic with his money managed to save about ten thousand dollars before he turned 18 as soon as he did turn 18 and discovered betting it was a number of days before he lost all of that money almost four years on i have full control over his bank accounts and i have to drip feed him money for rent bills and groceries because he cannot have any money in his account without gambling it away he begs for help he's in counseling he's banned himself from everything that he can but unfortunately his impulsivity is what gets him he could have full control one second and be

two thousand dollars down the next second i've been there every step of the way and it is the most distressing gut-wrenching thing that i've ever had to go through georgia that is a lot but i think the thing that i'm really grateful for out of those five different experiences that we were really lucky to have shared with us because those are really deep personal stories is that they were all so diverse yeah exactly I think going into this you pulled these together so I'm really grateful for that I had nothing to do with that part of the podcast this week and you've pulled this together but for me as a financial advisor I've heard similar stories to that historically the thing that I just learned is that you get bar snacks and drinks and coffee and tea to stay

gambling. Unbelievable. I did not know that either. Maybe we're just naive, but yeah. I potentially am really naive when it comes to stuff like that. Like I know when it comes to gambling addiction, the psychological backend of that, and I guess, you know, addictive personalities and that it's actually beyond their control a lot of the time. And people just say, well, just stop. It's not as easy as that or nearly as simple. And I've heard so many stories from our community over the last two, three years now of people saying, yep, my partner was a gambler or my dad was gambling or my mom was gambling. And it breaks my heart every time. But I think that piece that I just learned, oh, that really upsets me. I can't believe that's legal, Georgia.

Yeah, it feels pretty unethical and immoral, but I guess they're businesses at the end of the day and they're patrons in that business. I think what shocked me as well as that V was how much money these people were spending there was the girl whose partner spent 150k he was 150k in debt from gambling that's insane the lady whose mother forged 450k worth of checks to cover up her gambling like oh my god these are huge numbers that we're hearing yeah we're not just talking oh my boyfriend has the sports bet app and it really annoys me that he does that at night instead of watching tiktoks with me like i know that that is so trivial but i know that listening to this episode a couple of people are probably going to be like oh my gosh are they going to tell

me that the sports bet app is the worst thing ever to have and no we're not but we are going to say that it is a really slippery slope and if you are predisposed or have an addictive personality this is something that you can put yourself in the position of accidentally and I guarantee you nobody signed up for those things nobody signed up to be $150,000 in debt but listening to those stories it is rampant in our community absolutely and we saw on the thread all of those um voice notes came from community members and that they came from a thread in our community and there were so many devastating stories um so yeah this is going to be quite a hard topic today I think and a bit of a trigger warning here as well it's probably not the episode you want to listen to

if you've been through this or it's something that's really going to trigger you I mean this is going to be really fact-based and we're going to discuss it. But again, if this is a topic that's going to really upset you, maybe give it a skip. We've got two other episodes this week that you could tune into that I'm sure are going to be lighter in content. Absolutely. But Georgia, do you reckon we should get into it? Absolutely, V. All right. So I want to start by talking about the most recent stats that came from the Australian Gaming Council. So they revealed that in 2017 to 2018 Australians lost 24 billion dollars on gambling 24 billion that is a lot of money and Georgia we're talking about this before because I was like George how do we contextualize that

number because to anybody one billion dollars sounds like a lot of money but 24 billion dollars to just give you a little bit of a comparison the fast food and takeaway services industry in Australia is worth $21 billion. So we are spending $3 billion more on gambling than we are Macca's Chippies, George. Which is really bloody surprising, don't you think? Yeah. And that's why I wanted to contextualize it a little bit and go, hey, here's a comparison. I mean, fast food is something that I think we can all relate to and say, okay, well, I'm pretty guilty of a late night Macca's run. and I know that a lot of people are, but when it comes to gambling, this can often be secret. It can be something that we don't talk about. And as somebody who might not have ever been negatively

impacted by gambling, you might just go, it's not as big a problem as you think it is. When in reality, it's a massive problem and that's a lot of money. And there are a lot of people that I would argue deserve a lot more support than they're currently being given by our government. Exactly right. And we will talk about the government's involvement in all of this a little later on in the show. It's a bit spicy, so stick around. It is a bit spicy. My first question for you, though, is what is it about gambling that makes it so attractive? Why do people gamble? For lots of reasons, G. And they're not all necessarily negative. I mean, we started off on a pretty negative foot, but we really want you guys to see the gravity of this situation.

But according to Gambler's Help, there are four main reasons people gamble. And these are, firstly, for social reasons. I mean, everybody's seen the Melbourne Cup on TV, and we all have been at some point in our lives or another drawn a number out of a hat. The second is for financial reasons. So you might be doing it to win money and to get on top of your finances, even though it usually makes things worse. The third is for entertainment purposes, because some people really like the feeling of the high when they win and they're chasing that high. And the fourth is for coping reasons. So that might be so someone forgets their worries or they feel a little bit more self-confident or because it helps when they're feeling nervous

or depressed. They might be using it as a tool to lower their anxiety. So Georgia, it's become such a normalized part of Australian culture nowadays. We see these ads consistently for betting companies that we're not going to name here. There's rise of apps, which make it easier than ever to place a punt. And I think this shift to gambling now being so easy to do online means that a really large cohort of young people are pretty drawn to it and because we can access it 24 7 there's no real limitation on it it's no longer about just heading down to the pokies you don't have to be in a specific location you could be lying in your bed not able to sleep and you're gambling yeah 100 so that is obviously super devastating v but we know for lots of

people it's not super devastating it's a bit of fun something to do on the weekend put a punt on the AFL, whatever. But what people might be surprised to hear is that in Australia, 6.8 million of us are actually regular gamblers. You, of course, have a background in psych fee. So, I want to know your thoughts on what it is about gambling that's so addictive. So, let's break this down a little bit. There are a number of factors that contribute to something being addictive. And the first is a chemical reaction. There's that release of dopamine that makes us feel really good so what happens is uncertainty is a really large part of gambling so dopamine which is the neurotransmitter that is released by the brain when we're

experiencing moments of pleasure like eating something really yummy or that feeling that we're flooded with after a hard run which i can't relate to but george i know you can is released in situations where the reward is not a hundred percent guaranteed it's uncertain and studies have shown gee that the brain areas which are activated by taking drugs are also lit up when we gamble and that over years of gambling it can actually change the way our brains are wired which is terrifying to me wow the second thing is game design and this is something that has historically not been as prevalent and not been as big of a factor but it's now 2021 and we have access to mass amounts of research and technology and lots of forms of gambling are also

designed to be addictive. Like they've done this on purpose. Like historically, the pokies were like that, but now they're gamifying apps so that you stay on them for longer. And I downloaded a few gambling apps just so I could have a look at them and see what was going on. And the thing that I noticed very quickly and the thing that I think we can all relate to if we have TikTok is that the time isn't in the top left-hand corner. It is gone. And the reason it is gone is so you don't look at how long you've been spending on that platform. And that my friends is my reasoning as to why I spend so long on TikTok, but it is exactly like that. You go down a rabbit hole, but you don't look at the clock and be like, oh my gosh, it was five. And then all of a sudden

it was 545. And you're like, oh wow, that was really different. Like you're not seeing that number. You're not seeing the time. And I mean, it's not game design, but it's casino design. casinos do something really similar. They don't have clocks, so you can't keep track of the time and they don't have windows. So you actually don't know whether it's night or dark or it's getting late or it's being early. And yeah, there's a lot of things to take into consideration, but pokies are a really good example of this. They are light and bright and they're loud. Plus we heard at the start of the episode today from one of our listeners, G, that gamblers receive free drinks and snacks and they're totally encouraged to keep punting and stick around.

like that to me sounds crazy so it's not just game design it's like people literally there to enable your addiction which oh it makes me feel really icky the other thing to mention here while i'm talking about this is we also sometimes win and those wins can be really deceiving and they can trick us into believing our addiction is worth it or it's under control when really when we win it's just causing us to throw more money away because we think it's gonna happen again we're like maybe lucky people. But unfortunately, with gambling, the more you gamble, the more that you lose. But you'll often keep on gambling to try and win back some of those losses and try and get ahead financially because you feel behind. And that can be a super vicious cycle and can

absolutely lead to addiction. So, G, it is a really sticky area that is designed to stick, i suppose i like that well yeah it's like it's designed to make you addicted right well why wouldn't they so v gambling does seem more common in men at least that's been my experience is that actually true and are they more vulnerable to become addicted to gambling as well look statistically yes men gamble in greater numbers than females and a piece of research that we found from 2014 was the Victorian Prevalence Study, which was conducted by the Victorian Responsible Gambling Foundation. And they found that problem gambling was twice as prevalent in men than it was in women, which I don't think any of us are going to be surprised about.

These stats are especially strong in the sports betting side of things. So the 2015 Household Income and Labor Dynamics in Australia survey found that sports bettors were overwhelmingly male, coming in 88%, aged between 18 and 49, which was 79% of them. And they also found that 70% of those gamblers were working full time. Generally speaking though, men do watch more sports than women. So I'm not too surprised with those statistics. And anyone who has watched even a quarter of an AFL game knows that betting ads appear at most ad breaks and usually the ads are also extremely clever they're really funny they use characters that we know and love like Shaquille O'Neal or Mark Wahlberg or Andrew Gaze like they are really tapping into what we like and what we

know and they're high budget ads and they make gambling seem fun and harmless and part of just being an Aussie so side note the three biggest sports codes in Australia are the AFL I'm in Melbourne. So I'm pretty sure that's the only one. The NRL and Cricket Australia are all sponsored by online betting companies. If that's not, it makes me feel icky that they promote such a healthy living kind of mentality. And they're like, get your kids out, you know, do mini ruse, go and do Oz kick, go and, you know, get your kid into cricket really early. And then they're all sponsored by online betting companies, which makes me feel a little bit icky, but it's also exposing our children to thinking that's normal really early which i believe is really scary so

given all of that it's not surprising that when we watch coverage on television of their matches it's always drowning in gambling ads because they're sponsored by them and to further all of that a comparative study of men and women gamblers that was conducted by the victorian responsible gambling foundation that you mentioned before georgia they found that and i quote for most age groups female gamblers were significantly more likely to engage in scratch ticket play bingo phone slash sms competitions or raffle sweeps or other competitions compared to male gamblers in contrast male gamblers of most ages were more likely to take part in informal betting table games horses harness slash greyhound racing and betting and sports or events results betting which

I found really interesting but again not so surprising because you know gender stereotyping exists um just back on what you said there V about the three major codes all being sponsored by betting companies as someone who loves sports I just find that literally we can't convince Georgia to work for she's on the money full-time because she works in sports nine to five Monday to Friday like we're not saying you're a little fan you're a big fan I'm a big fan and up the Melbourne D's who took home the premiership this year. But I do, I just find it so disheartening and knowing that all of those little eyeballs

are watching the TV to watch their heroes up on the big stage. And then in the ad breaks, they have to put up with those ads, which to their credit are really good ads. They're really funny. They're written by the smartest minds in the media and advertising industry.

And they're just targeting, you know, these young people into getting brainwashed that gambling is okay and a normal part of society when it really shouldn't be. And it's really become a part of Aussie culture, like having a punt, putting a multi on your AFL games. And, like, sure, it can be harmless, but these numbers are terrifying. Couldn't agree more, Georgia.

And if everyone's doing it, then it's like, well, why not? Like all of my mates are doing it. What's the harm? But that's when things can get quite dangerous. I wanted to say, though, V, we mustn't forget that there is the little little gamble responsibly little message at the bottom of these ads oh that makes it so much better actually type yep it's yeah actually because they put it on there it makes me not want to do it and it absolutely means that i gamble responsibly cheers for the warning um

just on that yougov did do a little survey on this which revealed that 70 percent of people believe that gamble responsibly messaging has no impact on reducing problem gambling only 70 yet 19 19 percent believed it had some impact eight percent didn't know and three percent believed it was effective so i thought that was funny my favorite was the eight percent who didn't know they were just like i don't know um okay v let's move on here do you have any insights into what the impact of covid was like on the gambling industry and whether it made things better or worse for Australians? I do. And we've done some research and these answers are coming to you from our friends at the Australian Gambling Research Centre. Never met them, but from their research,

they sound like good eggs. And they found a number of key findings. So they found that almost one in three survey participants signed up for a new online betting account during COVID-19 and one in 20 started gambling online. I'm assuming that's because there wasn't much else to do while we're all in lockdown. So that kind of makes sense. They also found that even with limited access to venues overall, participants gambled more often during COVID-19 and the proportion who gambled four times or more in a week increased from 23% to 32%. That's a big jump. That's a pretty significant jump. They also found that horse racing, sports betting, greyhound racing a lotto were the main products that participants gambled on before and during COVID-19. And another

concerning statistic that came out of the survey they did, George, was of all people surveyed, 79% of participants were classified at being at risk of or already experiencing gambling-related harm. Jeez. That's a lot of people. That's like nearly eight out of 10 people that were significantly impacted because of their gambling, whether they thought they had an addiction or not, it was harmful, which is really, really scary. And also during COVID again, I've got a lot of stats here, but I want to share them because they are all really powerful young men. So these were people aged between the age of 18 and 34 were the sub population most likely to sign up for new online accounts kind of makes sense to increase their frequency and monthly spending on gambling

from 687 dollars a month to 1075 dollars a month and to be at risk of gambling related harm that's a decent amount of money so young men are most at risk of spending the most but are also at the most risk of gambling related harm, which is really sad. Like it's not, again, I think that this is a stereotypical kind of response, but like, I'm not surprised it's mostly men, but that's a lot. Like that's a lot. And we really need to be having this conversation more. And the last stat I'll leave you with, I found really interesting. Key experts noted that the temporary closure of pokies venues had immediate benefits for some people who gamble, including more money for essential items and increased savings. Interesting. So would that be because some people's

form of gambling is strictly the pokies? Yeah, absolutely. And they said that women were more likely to engage with pokies as their preferred form of gambling, which kind of makes sense. But at the same time, if you are into the pokies, if you can't access the venue, well, you're not gambling anymore. A lot of them would just find something else to do instead of turning to online. and I'm taking a wild stab here because this data I couldn't find that would probably be because of their demographic they're not between the ages of 18 and 34 and going to the pokies every day because I think every 18 and 34 year old is going to go what's the point I can do that from my phone it's probably that older demographic who at the end of the day actually need more money for

essential items and need more savings and that's a really good benefit of COVID-19 on gambling if we can call it that yeah that's a positive way of looking at it um v this is a question that i am very excited to ask you and it's the last one i'll ask you until we head to the break is it because it's spicy it is spicy it is the spicy question we hinted at earlier what does the government gain from continuing to allow gambling to be promoted as prolifically as it currently is oof she's hitting it with the hard questions right before the break all right g so in the 2017 to 2018 period the new south wales government received 2.3 billion dollars in tax revenue and our very state of victoria g made 1.1 billion dollars in revenue from gambling so how does that

work is gambling's obviously taxed and they take that in that way. It's obviously taxed and they take it in that way. And I would assume that that is why they are not doing nearly as much as they could to reduce gambling. It's a little bit spicy because that is a lot of revenue and it is a lot of money to be making, but it also would make sense for them to want to protect that revenue and anything that they do to put us in a better position would mean actually foregoing that revenue and saying that's not as important to them as our mental health or our physical health or our financial health. So I guess that's from me and my view on it, but I cannot say why the government, they say, oh my gosh, like we absolutely will do this, that, and the other.

But the fact that they're making literally billions of dollars from Australians gambling is pretty good reason to not do a whole heap about it. Yeah. Well, in terms of what they could do, I guess they could put tighter parameters around advertising, right? And like choose different time slots or just ban it altogether yeah and how much and when and they could even do things like stop venues from providing free food and drink or even stop venues from selling it so people have to leave the venue to go and get lunch or get dinner because i guarantee those things are keeping people in venues for longer so i think there's a lot that people could do they could even put caps on how long you're allowed to be there for I mean nowadays COVID normal I can go

to the restaurant for two hours is that the same for pokies are we going to start implementing things like that and could they stick in saying that I don't know what the rules are for going back to the pokies in COVID normal but at the same time it would be really smart of them to consider stuff like that but would it be in their best interest as a government probably not yeah so they remember i'm not sure about the years the exact years but remember like tobacco ads used to be on tv all the time now they're obviously not advertised do you think there is a time in the near future or the distant future where gambling will not be advertised at all anymore and in fact they will put warnings up against the pokey machine saying there is a high risk of addiction

here you could lose all of your money etc etc do so at your own risk i would love to think that that was true, but I still don't believe that people take our mental health as serious as our physical health. And we don't have a picture of somebody who has, you know, a tough filled lung that we can spam everywhere and be like, this is what happens when you gamble. Because in reality, the outcome of gambling is so significant and infiltrates not just the person, but the entire family. It ruins family units. It ruins relationships with kids. It puts you in significant debt. But as I've said on this podcast before, debt is invisible and that makes it so easy to just ignore, whether that is you getting into it or the government going, look, it's a

problem, but like maybe that's a problem that they deal with because we're making our billions of dollars of money in revenue. So do we really want to change? If anyone does work in government policy and you are making strides towards a brighter future. Hit us up, we'll do another episode apologizing for our comments uh guys let's leave it there for now but we will be back after the break to explain how you can spot the difference between a gambling problem and a casual punt and we're also going to tell you exactly what you can do if you think you are struggling with gambling addiction or if someone you love is don't go anywhere all right v straight back into it who among us is the most at risk of gambling addiction i'm glad

we're talking about this because we know that for a majority of people gambling isn't actually an issue but for a significant portion of us it is a massive potentially devastating issue so let's unpack exactly who might be more vulnerable unsurprisingly given our comments earlier in the show, men are more often problem gamblers compared to women, but also personality traits. People who have issues with impulsiveness and people who have low self-control are definitely at risk. And Georgia, we recorded an episode a couple of weeks ago about neurodiversity and people experiencing neurodiversity and what that meant. These people are at significantly more risk than I would say people not experiencing neurodiversity issues. Also, people with mental health disorders

are at risk as well. So according to the Mayo Clinic, compulsive gamblers often have issues with substance abuse, or they may live with depression, bipolar, or anxiety. And people who have ADHD are also at risk, G, which as I was saying before, is a neurodiversity issue. I get a bit frustrated if I'm being honest and let me go on a tangent here when people say that neurodiversity is a mental health disorder because I don't believe those two things to be synonymous but given our episode on ADHD and neurodiversity I think the key issue here is around impulsiveness so if you're somebody who's a bit impulsive whether that comes to the share market or substance abuse or you're just neurodiverse you are at significantly more risk than the

average bear, G. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. V, my next question is how do you actually go about spotting an issue? And what is the difference between having a casual punt with your mates on the weekend and having a proper addiction? So the first thing is having a deep understanding of what's actually going on. And that's really hard, G. As we heard before, people hide it. They lie. They forge checks. They hide the debt. They borrow money. Like, they aren't willing to answer this question. So getting a full understanding of the picture and being honest about it is really, really important. So whether that's you going through it or you coaching somebody to be like, hey, gee, I know that there might be an issue here. I'm not here

to judge you. I'm here to help you what's actually going on and sitting them down. But there are some signs that your gambling could be getting out of hand. So gamblers help say that common signs include being kept awake at night, thinking about gambling, feeling like you're out of control, building up debts that you just can't pay off and betting more than you can afford they also said that feeling like you can't talk to anyone about your gambling and hiding evidence of your gambling activity are all little hints that your gambling could be on the pathway to being out of control if you're someone who puts the occasional bet down on a sporting match or gets super exciting during the spring racing carnival which is coming up or who throws a few dollars in the pokies when

you're out in an RSL with your parents having a good steak dinner, classic rye RSL. I think that's absolutely fine. So long as there are parameters, you might say, yep, I'm going out tonight. My limit's 50 bucks and I'm going to spend no more than that. To me, that's a fine form of entertainment. It is not my job to judge you on what you like to get up to when you're out. But as I've said before, G can be a really slippery slope. And if you're someone that has a really addictive personality, like me, or who does display impulsive behaviors, also like me, it can be riskier for you. So you do just need to be really careful. So if someone was to say gambling aligns with my values, I want to put $50 down or like, you know, $50 from my budget each

week I want to allocate to gambling. What are your thoughts on that? I can do that. I absolutely agree with budgeting for things that are in line with your values. If that's what you want to get up to and that sparks your joy, go for it. I spend money on gel nail polish and eyelash extensions. Who am I to judge anybody on their spending? Because arguably I'm never going to win anything from my eyelash extensions except a few compliments. So at the end of the day, I think it's really important to just make sure that whatever you are putting in your budget is actually reasonable. So just because it's in your budget does not mean it's justifiable. it can only be free cashflow that you can reasonably afford. And if you have three kids

at home and you're really strapped for cash, maybe I'd really be rethinking whether that needs to be in your budget or not, or that's actually creating more financial constraint at home. But if you had a heap of free cashflow and you're like, oh, V, I'm investing thousands a month and I'm doing this and I'm saving. And, you know, I just on Friday nights go out for a drink with my friends and we bet about 50 bucks. I'd be like, okay. Like that is not a problem. Context is what is important there. Cause if you're saying, Hey, there is 50 bucks a week and okay amount. Well, I can't comment on that purely because I don't know your situation. As I said before, if you had three kids at home and you're actually finding it really hard to pay the bills

and put food on the table, that's actually unacceptable. We can't be doing those things if you're in that situation, but if you're financially free and have a whole heap of free cashflow, I'd be like, okay, go for it. Enjoy that. Do whatever you want. I mean, as a financial advisor, I'd be saying, are you sure you want to do that? Or do you want to invest it? It's a better option. But at the end of the day, your values are your values. Just make sure that the context makes sense. Not, oh, they said that 50 bucks is fine. Cause absolutely that is not the case. All right, V, let's move on to some of the solutions that we've collected today. What should we do if we're starting to feel as though gambling is starting to have a negative

impact on us? All right. So there are a few things that you can do. First thing I think is lean on distraction. So if you're feeling yourself craving, wanting to put a bet down, or you're really craving a trip down to the RSL, go and catch up with a friend instead. Find an activity that you can do that replaces it. I would argue that instead of going, oh, just go for a walk, find an activity that releases dopamine. So you're getting that hit still because innately and chemically, that's what you're chasing. So if you're going, I really want to put a bet down on X, Y, Z this week, maybe find a way to get that dopamine hit. If you get a dopamine hit from catching up with friends, go and do that. If you get a dopamine hit from going on a long run like

Georgia does, give that a crack, but find something that releases the same chemical so that you're not missing out on it completely. Because often when we try and just substitute it out, like turning on the TV. It's just pushing off us making that decision because we're chasing a chemical high. And I know that that's probably not what you expected me to say, but I think it's really important to not just swap it out for an activity that distracts you, but distract yourself with something that could be a consistent distraction that you start leaning on more regularly instead so that hopefully we can swap that behavior out instead of just going, Oh, I really want to gamble. You might go, Oh, just really feel like going for a run this morning. So I think it's really

important to think about creating new habits and what habits you can replace that behavior with another resource is gamblers help and they suggest resisting urges by thinking of them in waves i like this because waves come and go and the idea is to just ride them out so if you're really feeling like you want to do that just know you're at the peak of the wave and it is going to go down at some point and that mindset can really help you also if you fall off the wagon so to speak or the wave if we're going to try and stay on topic, George, don't be hard on yourself. Instead, reflect on where you fell down and what you're going to do differently next time. And I think that advice can go across literally every part of your life, whether that is finance or your career

or gambling. It doesn't matter if you fall down. The important thing about falling down is whether you're going to get up or not. The people that are defeated are the ones that stay down and keep the habit going. The ones that get up, they're the ones with grit and that's us. That's the she's on the money community. We're really gritty and we get up when we fall down and we make a plan for what we do differently because we don't see things as a failure. We see them as a learning and we go, you know what? That didn't work. Let's give it a crack again. We're not upset with ourselves. We just know we need a different strategy. And if you're in debt, please don't just continue to gamble in the hopes that you're going to win back your losses. I'm going to tell

you hard and fast right now, you never will. At the end of the day, with the statistics about what you can win and how it works, it's not going to happen. You're just chasing more losses and putting yourself in more debt. You need to talk to Gambler's Help. You can talk to them. They are beautiful humans that are going to help you through that. Or you can talk to our friends at the National Debt Helpline and they will put you in touch with a free financial counselor to help you create a plan to change your situation. So I think it's one of those things, as I said before, it is not a reflection of whether you're a good person or a bad person. What we want to take away from this is we are gritty. We get back up when we are pushed down. And if we are experiencing

something that is making life really hard for us, we have people around us. We've got the She's On The Money community. You guys are always more than welcome to message us and we will put you in contact with who you need to chat to. There's gamblers help, which is in the show notes and our friends at the national debt helpline who will also be in the show notes. So you are never alone on these journeys. And you know what? None of the people that I've just mentioned will ever judge you for the decisions that you've made. Absolutely not. I think as well, V, like open up to your loved ones and be honest with them because I imagine carrying around those levels of self-loathing potentially and levels of guilt if you're in debt like if we if we can talk to our

loved ones about that and just get that off our chest and you know that could almost be the first step into you know walking this new path and finding solutions um instead of just bottling it all up and trying to face it on your own i think speaking about it and being really honest open and vulnerable will be super helpful yeah and it's a very hard situation to be in when it is a loved one. Because when you're seeing somebody else go through it, you've essentially got to wait until they're in a position where they're willing to open up and accept help and accepting help for a lot of people is really hard. If you're that person that's really bad at accepting help, please stop. Like, please just accept the help it is there for you to use and

people love you and want to be involved in your life and actually want the best for you. And I promise the sooner you accept help, the sooner you're going to be out of this sticky situation. And the sooner we see the light and we're able to live the life we deserve to live. So it's also really important to note that when we're broaching things like this, like George, if I thought you had a bit of an issue, it would be a really tricky thing to bring up. It would be something that was really hard to talk about. And you know what?

The first thing you might do is completely deny it. And that's okay. I think we just have to be really nonjudgmental and soft and maybe broach that topic a number of times. The key is to talk to them without blame and just go really gently. gamblers help suggest that the chat happens in a private and safe space as well where they're not going to feel too vulnerable and they have a number of other suggestions that were really helpful as well so i'll quickly run through them they said focus on the positives and fixes rather

than the problems themselves so just like debt we don't care where you've come from we care where you are going doesn't matter what's happened what are we doing in the future let's just draw a line in the sand and let's make a positive plan for what we're going to get up to. Like, how are we going to get out of this debt, George? How good will we feel when that happens? They also say, get them to talk about what might be good about gambling less. So get them to come up with the positives. Cause if you're like, Hey George, so if you gamble less, you'll feel better. I'm like, okay. Get them to come up with things that are really relevant to their personal situations. let them know that you're only asking and talking about this because you care about them I think

that's really important and using words that they use so not going and using the word gambling if that's the case if they don't use that word maybe they use pokies maybe they use different words to describe what they do use that language so that it's relatable and it doesn't feel too far from home the next thing they suggest is be vulnerable yourself which I think is actually one of the keys to getting someone to open up. So if I wanted to have a really deep and meaningful conversation with you, George, I'm not going to start by asking you the deeper, meaningful question. I'm going to ask by showing you that I'm being vulnerable, maybe share an experience myself that I struggled with so that then hopefully you reciprocate and we can talk about that thing

that I'm trying to get at. They also said that asking the question, how bad do things have to get before we fix this is a good question. And the last thing they recommend is being patient. This process could take weeks or months or even could take years, but patience is the key. And I thought that those points were really helpful. They also gave us, George, three points to avoid. So they said the first thing to avoid is calling them the problem. That is going to get everybody offside. Let's be honest. The second you call someone a problem, they don't want to borrow you. The next is avoid blame. So we're not talking about blame. We are just talking about solutions. and the third thing that they said to avoid was avoid lecturing them or telling them what to do

figure out your solutions together and focus on that and if that does seem too daunting guys we will link to gamblers help in the show notes of course so you can always point them in that direction as well they're the pros they will yeah be massive helps agreed and i think something to also note about gamblers help is you can call them if you're not the gambler so it doesn't have to be you. You could be someone who has a brother, a sister, a mother, a father, a friend, a family member, anyone going through that situation. And they are going to help equip you with the tools and resources that you need to help them. Because not everyone who is going through a situation like this is going to pick up the phone themselves. And also just quick disclaimer, we're talking

about Gambler's Help a lot in this episode, very positively. They are in no way, shape or form sponsoring us. They don't even know we're doing this episode. We just think that they are good eggs doing good egg things yeah and their website is incredible it's packed full of resources many of which we've used throughout this episode so check it out if you are if you want to learn more if you are concerned about someone in your life or yourself the we are of course about to enter into the season of spring racing um so i feel like this episode has actually landed at a really good time which was probably deliberate planning by young jessica richie she's a smart cookie she's genius she's a genius um but i think it's appropriate for us to cap off today's show

with an overview of what the odds actually are like when it comes to gambling in victoria again this is according to gambler's help big shout out and i feel like it's a good place to leave this this has been a really heavy episode and these are a few facts that are a little bit bizarre but also maybe why we all need to reconsider what we are gambling because these numbers are wild g exactly so i'm going to start us off with the pokey machines so to get five black rhinos on the black rhinos machine which apparently is the i didn't even know that there was a black rhinos machine the more you know apparently that's a big one exactly the odds of winning are one in nine million seven hundred and sixty five thousand six hundred and twenty

five oh wow that's a lot pretty pretty poor all right i can see below you've got a note it says ask G about Powerball. G, this is me asking you about Powerball. What are our odds if we put our money on that? V, the odds are one in 76,767,600. Oh my gosh. And it also says, ask G about Scratchies. G. Mate, you're ruining it by reading the script this way. Sorry, sorry. You're making me seem lame. All right. You kind of are, but also I am as well. How often can we win on Scratchies? one in 600,000 times. So, you would have to buy a lot of scratchies, Vy, to come up with the goods. Yeah, that's a lot of scratchies and arguably that's more than a house deposit. So, I'm just going to keep saving if I'm being honest. You've turned me completely off. Yeah. Yeah, we do hope

you guys have enjoyed this show. It was really stat heavy. Vy, I'm thinking maybe I'll put together a little blog post so that these numbers are written down instead of just flying around on the podcast would love nothing more i'll build that this week and then we'll publish it and send it out to you guys all right v that is all we have time for we will of course be linking to gamblers help in the show notes as i've said a thousand times um so if gambling is a problem for you or someone you love please do get in touch with their team as they do have so many amazing resources for you to use as we said good eggs doing good things so as always just before we head off we'd like to acknowledge and pay respect to australia's aboriginal and torres

strait islander peoples they're the traditional custodians of the lands the waterways and the skies all across australia we thank you for sharing and for caring for the land on which we are able to learn we pay our respects to elders past and present and we share our friendship and our kindness the advice shared on cheese on the money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances she's on the money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or a financial decision and we promise victoria divine is an authorized representative of australia pacific funds management proprietary limited abn 34132463257afsl339151 see you next week guys bye guys

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