She's On The Money - The signs of financial abuse are often not that clear

Episode Date: February 25, 2020

This episode is a tough one and full disclaimer before we get into it, if you have experienced forms of abuse this show may be triggering for you. Financial abuse is not a widely spoken about issue, however it is extremely prevalent in Australia right now so we thought it was time to have a chat about it. Whilst this episode was recorded a couple of weeks ago, given recent news it feels incredibly timely. Join us as we discuss this insidious form of abuse, learn ways of spotting red flags in our relationships and chat about what we can do if we ever find ourselves in this incredibly hard to navigate situation. If you or someone you know needs to talk to someone now, call the DVConnect Womensline on 1800 811 811, the Kids Helpline on 1800 55 1800, or the National Sexual Assault and Domestic and Family Violence Counselling Service on 1800RESPECT/1800 737 732. Do you love the podcast SICK and want more SOTM? Of course you do! Join our Facebook page to share your money wins and money confessions, follow us on Insta for daily inspo to keep you on track and DEFINITELY subscribe to our newsletter, the written recap of the pod's key takeaways, including some bonus bits you won't want to miss... In a money mess and need help untangling the muddle? We've got you sorted - simply record your qualm and send it through to us at [e-mail] and you may end up on the podcast! Your podcast hosts are Georgia King and Victoria Devine. The advice shared on She's on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's on The Money exists purely for educational purposes only and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine is an Authorised Representative of Consultum Financial Advisers Proprietary Limited ABN 65 006 373 995 I AFSL 230323.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

She's on the money. She's on the money. Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. Today's episode of the show is brought to you by our friends at 86400. I'm Georgia King. I'm a copywriter and TV assistant who desperately wants to get better at all things money. To do that, every week I sit down with my friend and money expert, Victoria Devine. Hey, V. Hi.

Now, today on the show, we are going to be taking a little bit more of a serious approach as we're covering a topic that we found very confronting to tackle, but that we felt was incredibly important we discuss as a community. Before we do go deep, Victoria, it's time to stick with tradition and chat money wins and confessions. What did you get up to this week? I'm so glad I get to go fast. Yes, it's fast.

Thank you. Fast. i am so glad i get to go first because i have a confession for you for the first time this season what'd you do doll i don't think anyone will be surprised to hear this but i have once again not been very good with my uber eats account and gone a little bit wild on it over the last week or so we've been in the middle of just changing a lot of things in the office and it has been the easy go-to both during work and when i get home yeah it look it's been really helpful but on the weekend I decided that was just enough was enough and so I made a really

big batch of pumpkin soup which is really really cheap and really good I was excited because I use this specific type of coconut cream that's quite expensive in my pumpkin soup and it was on discount when I got to the supermarket that stuff is expensive oh my gosh yes it is it's like four dollars a tub for the one that I like and I just find that ridiculous but anyway enough about my pumpkin soup it was really cheap and i have been eating it all week and i love it yeah do you have a money win or money confession for me i have a win this week food related as well um i was shopping at coles i saw someone actually posted this in the group as well serena tuna was half price that stuff is expensive is the expensive tuna that's the best one yeah it was half price

so i um stockpiled about about 10 of them i love it i looked a little bit weird at the cash register but no no I've done that before but I grab the box yes and I'm just like I'm not carrying this seriously I'm not gonna carry individual cans I'm just gonna take this box and half fill it and then I look like some crazy cat lady which I am yeah but also that tuna's not for my cat it's actually for me um Serena if you're interested in sending us some free tuna we would be into that that's just G okay and now moving along to the Facebook group I have seen so many women lifting each other are providing support and sharing their knowledge and resources I hadn't even heard of so as always Victoria do you have a favourite this week? I do and this week is a little bit

of a different topic this week so I'm actually not going to name names this week for those of you in our Facebook group you might already know which post I'm referring to but for those of you who haven't seen it recently we had someone post in the group that they had just left a domestically and financially abusive relationship and they were looking for support from our community which I thought was so beautiful this post while it was really awful because of the situation was really special and I feel so so proud that we've created a space where we share content like this and people feel comfortable to do so but more to the point this post received an absolutely overwhelming response from our community like there were more than 100 comments on this post

from people sharing their tips and similar stories to women literally in every single state offering a safe space to go if our poster needed it so amazing you guys literally blow me away with your empathy and kindness so this week i just want to say thank you to the group for being supportive and being the group that you are this community is what it is because of the sum of its parts and all of you guys are a part of that absolutely on the note v of supporting one another and sharing our wisdom, I'd love to share a longish post from Harriet, who has been so wonderful in putting together a post of resources for those who have been impacted by domestic violence. Thank you so much to Harriet. We've actually taken inspiration from this and created

a blog post full of resources for those impacted by financial and domestic abuse. You can find it at the She's On The Money website, and we will also post it in the Facebook group today, as well as at our show notes. And now on to today's topic. Over the past few months, Victoria has met with a number of experts in this area to help out with the preparation for this episode because it is deeply important to us that we not only cover all the necessary factors but it also gives this topic the respect it deserves. You may have heard of domestic and emotional abuse before but there's another type of abuse that is infiltrating the relationships of so many and it is often a little more hidden. Unlike physical abuse, financial abuse can be harder to identify. So this week we are

going to tackle this confronting but frankly very necessary topic. We reached out to the community over the last month and had an absolutely overwhelming response from incredibly brave women who have come forward to share their stories with us. Whilst Georgia and I have never been in financially abusive relationships, we wanted to make sure that we were bringing you more than just facts and statistics on this deep topic. So this episode has been put together from the personal experiences of so many women in our community with the guidance of family lawyers, domestic violence experts and government bodies who sadly have boundless knowledge on this topic. Before we jump in though, I just wanted to let you all know that financial abuse doesn't

discriminate. It can happen to anyone. So if this is something you're struggling with, the show notes will have a number of really great resources for you to use if you need them. And if you still feel like you need a friend, please feel free to reach out to me and I can help point you in the right direction if you need it. Domestic violence is currently at crisis levels in Australia. We see it in the news sadly all too often and it's actually estimated that one woman dies every week and one man dies every month because of domestic violence in Australia. According to core data, in Australia, three in five women in relationships are leaving themselves open to financial abuse. Financial abuse is really the silent player in the game

of domestic violence, and it's a cruel and dangerous trap. For victims, it's often not having the necessary money to fund an escape from an abusive relationship that keeps them stuck in a place they just don't want to be in. However, financial abuse does take many forms and doesn't just have to be linked to a domestically violent situation. Victoria, we were talking earlier and you were saying that it can be anything from a partner who tracks every cent you spend and doesn't allow you access to any of your banking to a boss who withholds your pay. Before we do start discussing what the red flags we need to be looking out for are, what do we actually define financial abuse as? That is a really good question and we were going through it and I think a lot of

people don't see financial abuse as something that can happen outside of a romantic relationship. financial abuse can actually take so many different forms but essentially it is a situation where the actions or behaviors of someone else whom you trust make you feel like you're not in control of important financial decisions that directly impact you this unfortunately is typically suffered from by women particularly women in married partnerships which is obviously where we get this idea that it only happens in marriages it can be found across all age groups and all class structures. Figures show us that 98% of women who report domestic violence to police actually also suffer from financial abuse. This abuse can take form in many many different ways.

For some it means actively being prevented from going to work and earning money. For others it means being provided with limited amounts of money or not being allowed to have access to their own bank accounts and for many it is a slow grinding down of their independence and confidence to the point that they barely know how to look after themselves. Financial abuse can be something that's very difficult to recognize or even admit that you're going through when it's happening to you, especially if it's from someone that you trust or love. We know that people are at the highest risk when they actually leave an abusive relationship of being financially vulnerable. So it's important to have some form of plan so that you can exit the situation safely. This

applies to so many different people. We are not sitting here talking about people who are already in domestically or financially abusive relationships. We are here having a chat today about how we can prevent ourselves from ever being exposed to that opportunity. A couple of weeks ago I sat down with family lawyer Zoe Rosman who has seen it all too many times. She says that it's absolutely essential to have a financial escape plan in place or a personal emergency fund but we're going to get to that very shortly yeah lots of stuff to get through now we were talking before about how to actually structure this podcast and we agreed that it would be the most effective to go through some of the behaviors that could help us identify if we are in this situation because

as you said earlier victoria it can be really hard to identify and figure out if you are in this situation so victoria what would you say are some of the key indicators that a relationship is financially abusive so i don't want to go on about this but the first thing is it doesn't have to be your partner it can be a parent it could be a friend it could be your employer it's anyone who takes your ability away to make financial decisions independently or restricts your access to money that you are either owed or you own this takes so many different forms and shapes and financial abuse doesn't necessarily mean restricting access to your money it could be someone who goes in and looks at your bank account each and every single day and questions each and every single transaction

you make or makes you feel really guilty about spending money on necessary items. So another way that this could happen is when you are stopped from earning money or you are forced to stop work. This can have a significant impact on your ability later down the track to actually get employment again and get yourself into a financially stable position. So we're not talking about people who you know are stay-at-home mums by choice we're talking about people whose partners are saying no actually I don't want you to have a job which sadly is more common than we actually think it is. Furthering on from this three in five women are vulnerable because they don't have assets or savings of their own. Maybe they've left the workforce to have children or maybe

they've returned to the workforce part-time maybe everything is actually in their partner's name because their partner is the breadwinner and quote, takes control of their finances. But it's not just that, it's everything in between that too. This lack of financial independence so often comes alongside and can even enable domestic violence. If you're in a relationship with someone who wants to control you that way, more often than not, they want to physically control you as well. And that comes out in multiple different types of abuse. And one of the saddest parts of these abusive relationships is often it's the finance that keeps you tired in that situation staying in an abusive relationship is all the more likely when you can't actually afford

to leave you've got nowhere to go you've got nowhere to go you don't have an option and often there is a lot of shame and guilt surrounding this situation so people in these situations do not feel comfortable to reach out to friends or family and explain the situation in depth so that they can move forward so gee when I was talking to Zoe a couple of weeks ago she actually said something that really resonated with me and made a lot of sense and that is when you are in a domestically and financially abusive relationship that perpetrator often isolates you from other friends and family so that once you need to reach out you don't feel comfortable or safe to do so because that person has made you feel so isolated from friends and family completely dependent on

them you're completely dependent on them and you're in a situation where maybe your friends and family aren't as welcoming to you because you've pushed them out yeah you've pushed them out because you've essentially been told to so we're not talking about you know people who don't have family and friends often these people have beautiful families and beautiful friends but they've been made to feel like they can't approach their family or friends for help because they've put themselves essentially in that position by not putting themselves in that position if you will yeah victoria you spoke about creating a financial escape plan earlier what does that actually look like though and how do we go about creating one if we do need one so this is something that i have

spoken to clients about previously and it's also the main theme of the conversation i had with zoe rosman when i spoke to her she is a family lawyer and she deals with this situation honestly far more often than she should but the one thing that she said is that she is in a position where people do not reach out to her to create a forward thinking plan it's often a really reactive plan and not usually done prior to the person leaving the relationship so she said if she could change anything it would be that if someone is planning on leaving a relationship as much as it's a really awful situation to be in and we need to leave ASAP create a plan and to create a plan she said we need to be thinking about it before we leave that house or that situation we need to be making

sure that we can actually identify that we are in a financially abusive relationship not just a domestically violent relationship and knowing where we are going in the future so making sure that we are setting up bank accounts for ourselves sometimes that means that we don't have funds to put in them but at least we have access to bank accounts of our own and at the end of the day everything will end up being disclosed so one way or another we'll be able to get all assets on the table but it's very very hard so one of the best things that you can do is actually take copies of everything so bank statements bills mortgage repayments everything don't take the originals you don't need them just take photo copies of them take photos of them and not only have them

for your personal reference but leave them with someone that you trust so if you have a family member or you have someone that you can provide those documents to to say these are copies of all of my financial documents or my family's financial documents whether you understand them or not it's better to have copies of them so that your family lawyer or the person that is helping you through this situation in the future can actually help you through that with a more holistic picture of where we're starting from. In addition to taking copies of financial documents it's also really important to take copies of your identification so your passport your driver's license your birth certificates for you and your children any citizenship papers any visa papers your medicare

cards you could look into just making copies of it on a scanner and sending them to yourself or you could just take photos of them and if you don't feel safe having those photos send them to a friend or a family member or even a financial advisor someone that can hold those documents for you so you can delete copies off your phone or out of your inbox so that your partner or the person that you don't want to know that you've got copies of can see them. It's also really important to understand what leases you are on and potentially have your name taken off a lease and return the keys and notify any utilities that you are not in that relationship anymore and that you are not liable for those debts because they can rack up in the background without you even

knowing. So that's just something to take into consideration. And another thing that is really important is also contacting AusPost and having your mail redirected. So a confirmation might go to the home address. So be mindful of that. It won't ever have your forwarding address on it. It will just say that mail is being redirected to a different location and just letting the person at that location know. So that might be something that you want to watch out for. Gee, I've sat across from this very table with clients who haven't known where any of their assets are they haven't understood how much money is in their bank accounts their partner either has given them a credit card which they track each and every single month they're not sure what type of

properties or assets their family owns they know they own a house but they're not entirely sure if it's just that house or a number of investment properties and to be honest that is one of the most heartbreaking conversations I can have with anyone because it's not about hey I'm in debt and I need to get out it's actually Victoria I don't understand my financial situation someone else has hidden that from me and I don't have a way to get hold of that so if you can put yourself in a position where you are as educated as you possibly can be then it's time to make a plan and make sure that we're there but if we start talking about this financial escape plan which is again and I'm not going to harp on about it but it's a heartbreaking thing to think about what we should

actually be doing is putting ourselves in a position where we don't need a financial escape plan where we are financially independent in a relationship where we understand the ins and outs of our financial life regardless of whether we are the one that pays the bills or not I want each and every single woman that listens to this podcast to understand how to pay a bill to understand where their money goes each and every single month to understand what costs and expenses exist for them and the assets that they and their family own. So for me it's actually about going hey this situation might not be happening to you but make sure that you're never in a position where this can. Now you mentioned before Victoria that it would be a good idea to set up a different bank

account so that we can maintain some kind of financial independence but what do we do if our partner tracks their every move and is looking over our shoulder how do we how do we actually make that money for ourselves how do we where do we grab it from what are we doing that's a really important question and when I was speaking to Zoe that was something that I was like but what do they do how do they get their own money like what's your advice here and she said that's where the plan comes into play it's taking additional cash out when you are doing the grocery shopping it is taking small amounts of cash and just depositing in and just depositing it into that account and whilst I know that this situation might not be true for every single person you

might be in a situation where this is absolutely not possible I also want to mention here that there are a number of banks that if you open an account with them and then go to them and say hey I'm experiencing this financially abusive relationship it's domestically violent they have grants and in the blog post that you've written gee there is a whole heap of resources that people can go to. So I know CBA and NAB both have these programs. And whilst I'm not jumping up and down saying, hey, these guys have amazing savings accounts

and really great interest rates, which we talk about as being a priority, in this situation, your priority isn't a good interest rate. It is actually getting the help that you need and knowing where the resources are. So even if you're in a situation where you cannot get access to any money, there are people out there

and there are institutions out there that are going to hold your hand through this. You just need to know where to go and this post that you've put together or it's half written now, but it's going to be on the blog by Wednesday. But it is an incredible resource and we've spent a lot of time pulling it together.

The other thing that I think is really, really important here is putting together your own budget. Often if you are in a financially abusive relationship, it is inequitable. So you are not going to be able to maintain the same level of lifestyle that you had in that relationship. So you need to create a budget of the bare minimums. So what is it going to cost you each and every single month to rent

out your own apartment or rent out a studio or rent out a room in a share house? What is your budget for rent? How are you going to put a roof over your head? And even if you don't have the capital for that, I think it's important to understand your bare minimum. Like if you've got children what are their expenses just get yourself into a position where you are as educated as you possibly can be and I know that that is incredibly confronting so it is very hard to sit down and do a budget when you know you don't have any money coming in and you feel helpless and lost and that it is all too overwhelming but I guarantee you you are going to be in a more empowered position knowing okay my bare minimum expenses for a month are going to be $1,800 and I could get by

like I could you know feed my children I could put a roof over their head that's what this is going to cost so that moving forward not everything is up in the air. Some really good advice there Victoria. Now in preparation for this episode I was having a look at the ABS website this week and it read that nearly 2 million Australians have or will have experienced financial abuse over the course of their lives, which is obviously an appalling number. Victoria, how can we put ourselves in a position where this won't happen to us? So I think the number one thing here is about transparency. It is about you understanding your financial situation as a whole. So there's no right or wrong when it comes to money and this is what makes this topic so complex

and so hard to discuss because for some couples one party not working is absolutely normal and it's completely acceptable and it works really well the issue is when you are in a situation where you don't have complete transparency of your financial life and you feel as though it's being withheld so that is very different from you going hey I've never looked at the statements that my husband leaves on the bench because I'm just not interested it is very different than that it is people withholding information from you it is having a partner who says oh we've got these investment properties but when you start asking what rent gets paid they're like don't you worry about that I've got that covered so it's more about understanding each and every single thing

and if you're in a situation where your partner does leave the bank statements out but you haven't taken the time to look now is a really great time to just start being across it yeah you don't have to start paying the bills to understand how much your electricity costs each month or how much money is sitting in your bank account and what you are spending this doesn't mean that you need to jump up and down and go oh my gosh I don't know what's in my bank accounts my husband has withheld this from me or my partner has withheld this from me it's more about saying okay I just want to take more of an interest in this situation it doesn't mean going gung-ho on it from the beginning because often that can be quite jarring to your partner if they've been managing that for

you for so long but it's about just starting to give a little bit more of an interest in your financial life knowing that financial independence is the most important thing for you we touched on them briefly before victoria but what other red flags should we be looking out for obviously it's going to be different for everyone so if you resonated with any of the conversation that we've had thus far it's definitely worthy of further consideration and thought but also if you're in a situation where you are being asked to sign documents without fully understanding what you are signing that's financial abuse if you are in a situation where a family member is forcing you to claim for benefits that you know you're not entitled to that's financial abuse

if you're in a situation where a family member is forcing you to go as a guarantor on a loan or making a family member take out a loan in their name, that's financial abuse. The same goes for friends. If you've got someone who is racking up debt in your name, that's financial abuse. Selling possessions of yours without your permission, that's financial abuse.

Or if you're in a situation, and I'm sure we'll talk about it later, where someone is forcing a family member to change their will or change something legally about ownership structures, that is financial abuse. there is so many different factors to this but at the end of the day it actually comes down to making sure that you're not following someone blindly and you have complete transparency of your financial situation and access to your own money yeah so we're not saying you know you need

to be completely in control of it and you need to be moving money between accounts yourself just be across it be across it understand what it is what's your internet banking password should you need to ever go in there how do you do that what does that look like this is so heavy victoria i'm like shaking over here this is a really bloody hard conversation to have um before we move on i guess is there anything else you want to touch on that we should be across yeah so obviously all of that is really heavy to cover but it is so essential that we know what's going on with our money and we know what's going on with our own personal financial situations like these things go hand in hand with domestic and emotional abuse. And that is something I would never wish upon

anybody. So I think being in control of a situation means if we are ever subjected to something like that, we have the option to leave. We have spoken about the concept of an emergency fund before and the freedom that I believe that gives you to leave a situation you don't want to be in. We're not just talking about having an emergency fund for a car repair that was unexpected. we're talking about having an emergency fund that enables you with the opportunity to leave a situation that you don't want to be in whether that is an employer that you don't want to work for anymore a country that you've found yourself stuck in or a relationship that you no longer want to be in an emergency fund is going to be something that is really important to you

to enable financial freedom so financial freedom is something that we talk about in a very holistic way we say you know what we want you to have financial freedom in your life so that you know one day you don't have to work what i'm talking about here is a fund that just enables choice and that is the biggest stepping stone for me for financial freedom i also really want to point out that if anyone is making you feel like you are incompetent with money that's not acceptable you are competent you are capable and you are smart enough to understand the ins and outs of banking and finance this is not something that is super complex and that is why we exist g this is what she's on the money is about like you just need to take an interest in it and it will

all fall into place for you and that is exactly why we do what we do the impacts of understanding your financial rights are huge and the scars of not understanding them properly can last a lifetime the effects of this are so multifaceted and complex impacts of financial abuse and not understanding your finances properly impacts on your social inclusion your home security it impacts on your physical and mental health it can create an added barrier to leaving an abusive relationship it can also impact your access to health care so i think it's really really important that we actually make this a priority for us even though it is not something that we are all experiencing right here and now and hopefully none of us listening will experience because we're putting

ourselves in a position where we have that ability that transparency and the option of leaving when we need to. Hi there. You've reached the Shoes on the Money mailbox. Do you have a money problem you want help solving? Do you have a money dilemma you just want to chat about? Victoria is here to help. Every week, we'll be playing your questions to help make sense of a money mess you may have found yourself in. Make a quick recording on your phone and send it through to podcast at shoesonthemoney.com.au and you might find yourself on the show. But for now, here's today's listener question hey um I probably prefer not to give my real name if that's okay I just wanted to perhaps ask a question about the best way to deal with this because I think my

best friend might be in a relationship um that's abusive and I just don't really know how to handle it I don't want her to feel too confronted or shut down so if there's any advice that would be great thanks what a horrible situation victoria um my instinct would be that she needs to talk to her friend um even if she can't catch up with her call her on the phone just get through to her um yeah you just need to have this conversation because otherwise she's going to be trapped yeah and it's really really hard because often as an outsider we are able to see things that the person in that relationship cannot at that point in time and you know we all really want to believe that the people that we know and love our family members our friends people that we work

with live free from violence so we know that one in three Australian women over the age of 15 have reported experiencing some form of abuse in a relationship at some point in their life which is terrifying so those stats come from white ribbon who are also in our blog post this week violence against women actually transcends so many boundaries of age culture ethnicity religion disability social economic status it can literally happen to anyone and everyone and so i think that it is our obligation as women to come together and support one another and it's like that friend that you have and you know their partner might not have been faithful and do you say something do you not say something obviously it is complete personal discretion but I believe that we all

should be standing together and supporting one another and making sure that we can offer support no matter how big or how small to a friend that we see is in need and how would you do that in this situation be it can be really hard it can be so hard to offer appropriate support or intervene in a circumstance where there is domestic or financial abuse nonetheless there is a growing number of people asking how do we support people going through this situation and our resource on our blog is going to outline all of the resources I'm not going to read them off but one of the most important thing is asking that person how you can support them yeah so sometimes they want support sometimes they do not want support and it is a very fickle topic whilst we are working very hard

to make money not a taboo subject anymore so many people perceive financial and domestic abuse as being a private family matter it is something that often people don't want you to interfere with but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't it just means you need to be incredibly mindful about how you go about that how do you have that conversation obviously being really confrontational can be quite jarring for someone who might not even know that that is not acceptable behavior so I think we need to put our personal opinions to the side for this one for a second and go okay how can I actually support this person and what does that mean we have an obligation as women to speak out and not remain silent on something like this the only way we can limit this happening is if we all

come together and support one another if done sensitively expressions of your concern and support can help a woman who is facing a financially abusive relationship to make them feel less isolated and reinforce the message that this is never acceptable and it should never be tolerated you need to make sure that you're approaching it in a really sensitive manner i can imagine there'd be quite an element of shame as well absolutely because everyone's in denial about this situation you don't want to be there as i mentioned earlier on the podcast people who are financially abusing or domestically abusing you often make you isolated from your family and friends so it can be very hard yeah which is what this guy yeah you can reach out to a friend and just express your

concern hey you're not being yourself lately do you want to have a chat do you want to have a coffee you know what do you want to come over for a cup of tea if it's a financial thing and she's worried about that coffee showing up on her bank card yeah um saying things like i've noticed that you've been pretty withdrawn lately i'm a bit worried about what's going on can be really good icebreakers for this conversation being really confrontational whilst we all feel quite confrontational when it's not happening to us we can be like this is unacceptable i'm not gonna to have this I'm not standing for this my friend it's not helpful to approach this situation like that and be patient don't force this issue it might have to come up a number of times before

she feels like she genuinely can open up to you and don't be offended if your friend chooses not to disclose to you the situation that's going on even if you can see it right in front of you I think it's really important to understand that it's such a common misconception that people once you say hey I can see what you're going on they go yep no problems I understand they're not they're going to be in denial and you know what if they're not fantastic maybe they've seen it too and they're just really grateful that somebody else is seeing things from their perspective just knowing that they have a friend that they can approach for anything that's the main thing so whilst this person who has sent us a hotline question you know really cares about their friend I thought

I think we also need to be quite pragmatic about our approach and make sure that it is the right approach for that situation sometimes things are far more dramatic and you actually do need to intervene because your friend is at risk and that at that point that's where you do contact authorities you do call the police you do have conversations that you really really need to have but if you think that your friend's in a financially abusive relationship and you know you want to have that conversation I think you need to broach it lightly and what if you're not completely sure that they are in a fully blown financially abusive relationship if you just have a suspicion would you still bring it up with them or would you just leave it see what happens I'm imagining

it would be better to intervene subtly but do you have any yeah I think intervene is probably not the right word here because if it's a subtle inkling if it's a subtle feeling that that might not be right we also need to be really aware that everybody manages their financial lives differently and i've spoken about this even my partner and i we manage our finances a little bit differently to the next couple so i think it's important for the person thinking this to say all right well maybe they've just got different opinions than i have around finances and how to manage those and that's where money stories and money conversations come into it have more conversations with your friends and your family about money understand where they're coming from maybe they're

just closed about it because they're not ready to talk about their money story and that is completely fine. But I think having this conversation with your friends and your family about your experiences with money and what is and isn't acceptable can be really empowering. As promised, this week we have a bit of a special money diary format. We're going to head straight into a chat with a very honest, very brave, 30 and financially confident. Here she is. One of the biggest side effects of financial abuse or emotional abuse growing up is not having confidence and and having low self-esteem because I didn't really think I was worth much and I felt like I wasn't a very good person because I was constantly told I was being very selfish and I I'm a taker and I take all of

these things and I never give and I am the worst person on earth these are sort of the very normal things I get to hear all the time in a fight and I look at the people around me and the support network that I've built around me and that is the validation that I need to know that I am a good person and that I do give a lot and I am a very supportive partner and friend to my friends. So that has really been my saving grace in all of this. When my parents split, they lived in different countries, So it kind of plays into it because I realised how she controls people with money, essentially.

So my father worked for her and she paid for everything. And when they split, she still continued to financially support him. And so he was always kind of there at her beck and call whenever she needed. And I felt like he had to be a mediator between the two of us. and he always had to keep that up and couldn't separate. And I saw that as an example of me not being able to separate from her and it was very disheartening to see. So I felt like there was no way I could ever put up a boundary that's healthy

because she's made a system around her that didn't allow that. Growing up, I was quite privileged living overseas and then coming back to Australia, living in a nice suburb, going to private schools, being able to go on holidays. Growing up in this lifestyle, I was quite aware of the privilege because my parents would often tell me how lucky I am and use that as a point to make sure I was a good kid. You know, you're very lucky people don't get the privilege to do this. So be grateful. My mum was a bit of a workaholic and never around and money was her way of, in her words,

was her way of showing us how lucky we are and how much she loved us. I had to always show that I was incredibly grateful for what I was given and I was. And I wanted to prove myself to being financially independent and show my gratefulness by saying I've lived in a really great childhood and I want to use this opportunity to make something of myself and to show you that your money's well spent essentially but no matter how good of a child I

was I was unable to get the love and validation I was seeking and it was always just every one of my actions was conditional to what they were giving me and my mother especially would try it felt like control me as I was growing up by using that as her argument no matter how well I did if I slipped up slightly and wasn't the perfect child then a range of arguments would come up including I chose to feed you and I chose to clothe you and put a roof over your head it was very normalised by the time I grew up with her lending money out and then using that to keep people close and it happened to a lot of family members. I could always see the intention at the beginning which is why it was so hard for me to be independent later on in life was it did come out

of a place of love and care for the people around her. She was better financially off and therefore wanted to help the people around her but in turn she needed to use that to keep people around her you know I don't want to dive too deep into the psychology of it but it was a tool for controlling and to keep people close for validation I was constantly trying to prove myself that I don't need the money to love my own mother or anyone like I grew up very I didn't care about any of the superficial possessions or gifts and I really credit myself and being able to go to a therapist really early on in life when I was 18 and I haven't stopped since then I realize as a person I find happiness and relationships and all to be the most substantial thing for me rather

than possessions. When I moved out it was quite an intense situation with my mum because she wanted me to live at home and I felt that that wasn't the healthiest thing for me so I moved out and she insisted on paying for rent so I didn't take a job and whenever I did I did do casual work in retail and I was constantly being berated to quit because it was beneath me to work in retail in her you know in her words I should be focusing more on my studies and I should be focusing more on the bigger picture and that she was there to support me and I didn't feel like I actually had options so I took the financial support when I was at uni and I continued to do that for my undergrad essentially and it created a lot of problems within our relationship because I was

out of home it just got more tense between the two of us and I just really tried to stand my ground and was feel like I was really going up against something way bigger than I was actually able to handle which caused a lot of mental stress but I would try I would stick to my jobs you know despite being told not to and I would try really hard to save that money so that I had something to fall back on. I had a lot of shame around what was happening people around me you know would work and were struggling and were students or were in debt and I had a lot of support but I was quite unhappy so I felt like I couldn't talk about it with anybody and even my own therapist until the fights with my mother got really intense and I had to bring

it up I just I was kind of at my wits end realized through that my therapist really helped me understand what was going on and letting me understand that having healthy boundaries also meant financial boundaries and not getting the support even though it was it would be really hard because I was relying on it for so long it was the best thing for me to do so from realizing to actually being independent took a while because there was a lot of little steps but that's when I when I realized was maybe around my mid-20s early to mid-20s I could see how other people around me were struggling and or finding their footing and not having help and talking about borrowing a little bit of a little amount of money from their parents to immediately pay it back and I

I wasn't in that same situation and I and I didn't know anyone that was really in that same situation I felt because I didn't know anybody going through it I felt quite a lot of shame around it and I felt like I felt shame because I didn't feel I was really my own person as well oh setting boundaries with my mom took a lot of energy I spent so much time thinking about it first off and reflecting and talking to my therapist my therapist was very very concerned and wanted me to set very hard boundaries and every time I did it would blow up in my face and be quite an explosive fight. I was working for my mum right after graduating. It ended up being really destructive to our relationship and I decided to stop talking to her and that was quite hard on me.

we didn't speak for six months or more I think and she was constantly trying to reach out in all these different ways and also using my father to tell me that I would regret it if we didn't make up and it would be my fault if our relationship crumbled and you should be the bigger person and you know and I was trying to set quite a hard boundary I obviously quit working for her and I wanted to move out I had moved back in um as well for a short period of time into her house and I wanted to move out and she literally said you are not allowed to leave you cannot move out and I didn't know what to do I thought I had no options until I continued to set that boundary I really pushed through no matter how hard it was for me and having the space

really helped me reflect on what was happening and moving out was also just the best thing for me at the time even though that was quite hard the boundaries are set but it's not being entirely respected I received a car for my birthday I didn't want it my car was fine I actually had a huge breakdown over it because I was gifted this thing and I thought it was everything I get given from my mother is conditional so I just didn't want anything to be over my head I don't want to be told that I give you this therefore you should do this and I had that freedom for a little bit now and to be given that I just felt so upset growing up I always wanted to have my say and wanted to break away and tell and tell her you

know you're hurting me and she could never hear that because it would mean to her that she was a bad person we've overcome the car situation I've just accepted it I tell myself that I accept this gift as a gift in its own merit and I try not to put any baggage on it I try not to put any of the past into things in the present and um and I essentially the only way forward for me is to appease her instead of going up against her and just tell her thank you you're a great you're a great mother and this is great and it seems to be working having an honest conversation with her doesn't seem possible and what I've learnt through therapy is you can only control yourself when it comes to any form of abuse you can't try and make someone be something different so I've changed

myself to be more patient and also to give myself more rather than trying to please the person that is hurting me in like the most extreme way so I set a lot of boundaries in only being able to see her when I'm available only being able to give her things when I have the ability to so I do have the ability to tell her what she wants to hear which is she is a good mum because I'm a lot more sure of myself now and I have a lot more confidence in myself and I know saying that doesn't change who I am I have a partner and he's very understanding and my past partner was also very understanding but saw me as a person of a lot of privilege and sometimes that would come out in being called a princess and so forth and I would hate it so much but my current partner is yeah super understanding

understands where that stems from and ever since she's on the money came on I haven't stopped talking about it to him and he's very excited for me to have autonomy and confidence over my finances and so it doesn't affect us so much because I am in the situation I am today and I have found with my closest girlfriends being open to them about it previously I was so ashamed but being open to them about it I found that they've been really understanding and I realised that no matter what the people around you who love you will always be very understanding of your story

so it is quite good to be open to them and that is all we have time for today if this is something that you or someone you know is struggling with the show notes have a really great number of resources for you to use if you need them and if you still feel like you need a friend please feel free to reach out to me and i can help point you in the right direction if you know that someone is going through this or you are going through this though we can recommend that you call dv connect women's line on 1-800-811-811 the kids help line on 1-800-551-800 or the national sexual assault and domestic and family violence counselling service on 1-800-RESPECT 1-800-737-732 and now it's time to quickly wrap the boring but important stuff the advice shared on she's on the

money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances she's on the money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Oh, and yes, don't worry. We promise Victoria Devine is an authorized representative of Consultant Financial Advisors,

Proprietary Limited, ABN 65006 373 995, AFSL 230 323. And of course, thanks to our friend Ryan John for helping us put together today's show. We would absolutely love it if you joined our beautiful Facebook community where our community shares money tips and tricks

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