She's On The Money - Understanding Income Guilt

Episode Date: May 31, 2022

On this episode we unpack income guilt. Closely related to spending guilt, it's a relatively new term, but not a new experience. And while it can be a reaction to socio economic inequality, it is very often a result of your money story and background. Join Georgia and Jess as they look at the causes, constraints and commonalties of income guilt.The advice shared on She’s on The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She’s on The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are Authorised Representatives of Infocus Securities Australia Proprietary Limited ABN 47 097 797 049 AFSL - AFSL 236523.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Just before we get started, we'd like to acknowledge and pay respect to Australia's Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. They're the traditional custodians of the lands, the waterways and the skies all across Australia. We thank you for sharing and for caring for the land on which we are able to learn. We pay our respects to elders past and present and we share our friendship and our kindness. She's on the money. She's on the money. Hello and welcome to She's on the Money, the podcast for millennials who want financial freedom. My name is Georgia King and joining me for our first ever deep dive together is the delightful Jessica Ritchie. Hello. How are we, J.Rick? I'm good. You're right. We've both

done them with V before. We have. Unfortunately, if you listened to Friday's episode or if you follow VD on Instagram, you'd know the voice is gone. Girl can't speak. Not a whisper of a word. And so today you've got us. You've got us. And like, don't worry, it's not a financial advice episode. We're talking more about the psychology of income guilt. Now, J.Rick, this is a relatively new term, but not a new experience. It can be a vague and difficult feeling to describe. It can be a reaction to socioeconomic inequality, but it can also very often be a result of your money story and your background. A hundred percent. And a while ago, we looked at spending guilt and that episode really resonated with a lot of people. So we thought that this might be something good

to accompany it, particularly after we spoke to a money diarist recently where we touched on it and we had some really, really positive feedback and we were like, oh my gosh, it's not just us. It's everybody. So we really drilled down on it in that episode that guilt exists to tell us something about ourselves and where we are. So it's kind of like the canary in the mineshaft concept, if you're familiar with that. It's definitely not a healthy feeling to dwell in, unfortunately. So it should be a catalyst instead of resonating in your own guilt, instead of stewing on it, it should be kind of pushing us to look at the root cause of why we're feeling this way and addressing it. And that's what today's episode is all about. We aren't just talking

about guilt or shame that you're earning too much though. For example, you're earning what you need, but you might feel shame or pressure that it's not more. You might compare yourself to your colleagues or your mates who are on different wickets and think, oh God, why is that not where I'm at? So yeah, it's going to be a very interesting episode. We should say as well that we have spoken to Victoria before today's episode. These are all of her notes and hot tips and we're kind of just expanding on them. So if you're just like, who are these two silly nuts? We have spoken to the great Victoria Devine and she's behind today's episode. So that's that. Alrighty, Jayrick, what are some of the common negative thoughts we have when it comes to earning

guilt? Yeah. All right. So we've kind of drilled them down into two biggies, which is the I win, you lose and the I'm a fraud, I don't deserve this. So the I win, you lose concept is kind of when you get stuck into thinking that if you're succeeding, you're taking it away from somebody else. So, you know, if I'm earning a really good salary, that must mean, George, that unfortunately there's not enough left there for you. And so I'm depleting the resources available to you. So if we were in the same company, for example. Yeah, exactly right. Which shouldn't be the case. And I think that that's kind of something that a lot of people maybe feel as a result of, you know, workplace competitiveness or the inability to talk about your wages as well,

I think kind of capitalizes on this a little bit. And it's really, really unfortunate. So while the world is really unfair with the distribution of money, it's not your salary. And it's really hard when you're feeling super guilty to not think that you're the root cause of all these problems. But it's definitely your salary shouldn't be impacting the broader world as we know it. In reality, you're getting paid your wage. It's only adding to the flow of money. You can save, you can invest, you can donate to charity. If that's what you want to do, you can do all of these really great things. And then the second option is kind of the flip side of that. And it's where you have that overwhelming imposter syndrome. You feel like you don't

deserve what you're earning. And women definitely feel this more commonly, unfortunately. In our recent episode about how to have difficult conversations with your boss, we actually learned from you, George, that only 7% of women will try and negotiate a salary when applying for a new job, whereas 57% of men will. That's astounding, isn't it? I knew it was bad. I did not know it was that bad until I listened to that episode. Once they're working, less than one in five women are asking for a pay rise without being prompted compared to one in three men. So you should know you are valuable as a woman, as a man, as a non-binary friend. You are deserving of that money and you shouldn't be feeling bad

for asking about it. And also give people credit. They usually know what they're talking about when it comes to hiring and they hired you for a reason. You're bringing skills to a role, I would assume, you deserve to be compensated for that. 100%. Is that something that you've battled with, Jayrik? I think a little bit. I think particularly when I changed industries. So I, you know, started super corporate and then moved to more creative. And I have said before, I did it without a degree. So for me, there was definitely a little bit of knowing that I had the skills to do the job that I do now and that I was freelancing in

for a very long time. I had a proven track record of it but worrying about what I didn't know when in reality like you can learn those things and if you're doing the work you deserve to be paid well for the work that you're doing and if there are deficits in your knowledge you should be able to work with your employer to fill those up, to fill the gaps and to learn and I think you should be constantly learning and constantly growing and you know your salary should be reflective of where you are, but also in some way reflective of where you're going as well and your openness to learn new things. How about you? Yeah, no, it's something I've definitely felt and I've spoken about it on the podcast before. I definitely struggle with imposter syndrome, but in terms of asking for a

pay rise, I remember when I spoke to V about a pay rise for She's On The Money, I was so intimidated and she's the money guru. I was going to say, and here we are on the podcast telling everyone to ask for a pay rise. If anywhere you feel good about it, it should be here, right? But so it went really well and I got my desired outcome. But I remember when I sent through my first invoice, I felt so guilty. Really? I was like, I'm not worthy of this. Like she's going to fire me. Oh my God. But life just kept on ticking along and it took me a while to feel comfortable in what I was earning and I felt like I really had to prove myself. But here we are now and I definitely feel like the dollar I charge is what I'm worth. But yeah, it's something that

I've definitely struggled with. So if you're listening and you are someone in a similar position, then back yourself, baby. Jayrik, on that guilt re-salary in your company question, I was talking to a mate the other day and she is pretty high up in marketing at this very trendy brand and she learned the other day that the business actually isn't turning a profit and she'd recently gotten a pay rise and she felt so guilty about having received that pay rise because she was like oh but the business isn't making money yeah but that's not the individual's problem that's the business's problem and you should not have to like forfeit what you're worth just because the company is not where they should be at.

And don't forget, the big corps generally earn the big dollars. Correct. And like anything, they're subject to good times and bad times and we're coming off the back of COVID, which might be why her company wasn't doing so hot. But you can almost guarantee, like, the goal of a business is to be profitable. So even if they're not being profitable right this second,

in the past and in the future, there's a very good chance that they have been or that they will be and you as an employee are contributing to that. Exactly. They're investing in you for that purpose. Yeah. Like it's not charity. You know, you are doing something to be earning the money you're getting. And I think sometimes we have to remind ourselves that that responsibility isn't on us to keep it all ticking over. So Jarek, why do we put this guilt on ourselves? Well, something we say all the time is that the way that we experience money and how we feel

about it, is really deeply rooted in how we perceived finances as a child or your money story. Very first episode, shout out to that. Go back and listen to it if you haven't. It's a goodie. But, you know, maybe your family income was low when you grew up and this was really stressful. And so now as an adult, you find it to be stressful because you haven't seen positive discussion around money or you might be in a position where you're earning more money

than your parents ever did or your partner. and that can sometimes be confronting, especially when maybe the people around you don't react super positively to that either. Or on the flip side, if you grew up with a lot of money and it came really easily, you might not be feeling a tangible connection to the value of money, or you might be feeling guilty if you're not earning an amount of money that enables you to live the lifestyle that you grew up with. So there's all kinds of different ways that we can feel things. And if you listen to the Money Diaries episode, you'll know that the feeling of anxiety and stress and guilt is quite common and it comes from people from all different

backgrounds. Like there's not necessarily a, if you were raised in this way, you're always going to feel good about money and you're never going to feel imposter syndrome and your life's going to be so easy. It can absolutely have an impact. But believing that we don't deserve a certain amount of money can really cause us to self-sabotage and stop us from growing or developing or earning more money in the future. Yeah, that's so true. We're really just kind of getting in our own way a lot of the time. And I think, you know, when we were chatting to Vy about this episode and about all of the things that she wanted us to share, the big takeaway was that we need to get out of our own way and we need to make space for ourselves to get what we deserve. 100%. I think

that is the perfect place to press pause there, J. Rick. But guys, don't go anywhere because on the other side, we're going to be talking through our tips to stop that feeling of income guilt. So please don't go anywhere. Alrighty, straight back into it, Jayrik. I wanted to have a chat about how we stop this feeling of income guilt, or at least how we can ease it a little bit. These are some top tips from Victoria Divine herself. So let's jump into them. The first is to understand where your guilt comes from. So firstly, you need to notice that you have a problem with earning money to begin with, and then you need to work out where it's coming from. Try to think about how money was spoken about when you were growing up, how your parents and even your grandparents felt

about it. And you'll find that those answers may really help you to start to heal and shed some light on where this is all stemming from. So yeah, taking some time to do that, I think, is really important. The second tip here is to take control of how you feel about money by taking action. So once you've discovered where your income guilt stems from, it's a really good idea to take control of how to view your own finances. Take ownership of your decisions and make sure they stem from your own personal belief system and not one that you inherited. So that's really reflecting on your own values rather than other people's. The third tip here is to be grateful for the money that you are able to earn. So gratitude is a really great starting point

and something of a silver bullet. Shifting your focus from guilt to gratitude is not easy, but it is worth it. So as soon as you can recognize how lucky you are, you can begin to feel grateful for your luck. You can be grateful for your skill. You can be grateful for the privileges you've had and so on. I feel like that's one that's particularly pertinent on both ends of the spectrum, like we were saying earlier, like guilt over earning too much, but also guilt over not earning enough or not doing enough or being enough. I think that a lot of this guilt comes from the comparison game and you're either seeing people with less than you or people with more. And that's where, for me personally, I know that a lot of my feelings come from when I am

feeling guilty or overwhelmed or imposter syndrome-esque. And yeah, just being able to take a step back and say, oh my gosh, like I'm lucky and I'm working hard and I'm doing good things. And that does not come at the direct detriment of other people. 100%. Yeah, really well said. Jess, let's shift our focus and chat about emerging industries. We know that lots of people in our community work in emerging industries that didn't exist a few years ago, and you and I both do as well in the podcasting space. Do you think working in an emerging industry that's maybe not quite understood by older generations, do you think that can lead to a sense of imposter syndrome? Oh, a thousand percent. Firstly, because we

don't have a blueprint for what salary or what life structure should look like. Like a lot of the emerging industries at the moment are in the creative space or in the tech space because those are areas that are developing like never before as new technology and new things become available. Influencers, content creators, podcasters, all of these things. If you had said five years ago, I podcast for a living, people wouldn't have even known what that meant, let alone believe that you could make good money from it. And so I think the fact that there's not really a clear linear process to follow, like, do you need to go to uni? Absolutely not. Do you need to be, you know, a certain size company? No, you can do it as a person by yourself. And so those common, I think,

frameworks or goals or achievements that apply to your regular job don't necessarily apply here. and it can make it hard to kind of go, am I on the right track? Am I progressing well? Am I doing too much, too little? And so that makes it really tricky. And then on the flip side of that, a lot of the time, and I definitely feel this as a creative, both in my full-time and my side hustle, people don't necessarily understand what you do. And I think if you follow me on TikTok at Jess.Ricky, I put up a TikTok that was reflecting on when I was younger, I would get in trouble sometimes for making little videos and I had a YouTube channel and I made these little videos and it was all very fun and you know I used to get the old go outside and have a run around

play do something productive you're looking at your screen all the time but that is actually what got me this job the highest earning job that I've ever had the job that really fulfills me the most that I ever have experienced and when people don't understand something it's very easy for them to be dismissive of it. And maybe you want to build your own business. Maybe you're a small business owner and your friends just don't understand that. Or maybe you're researching into a new area that hasn't developed yet and people go, why are you wasting your time? And that can really feed into your feeling of imposter syndrome or your feeling of, you know, am I doing the right thing? Am I, you know, embarrassed? And just like you don't necessarily have a support network or

people who understand it. And I think that can be really isolating. Yeah. And that can kind of trigger those feelings of guilt and self-doubt. Have you ever felt kind of like shame or like embarrassed if, say, your auntie at family Christmas is like, so what are you doing with yourself now, Jessica Ritchie? And you're like, I work in the podcasting space. Have you ever felt that kind of judgment from older gens or even people our age that are like, oh, podcasting, like what a gag like that's not gonna last long oh for sure yeah and I think podcasting on some level I have the security of being able to be like shoes on the money is the biggest business podcast in the country yay us um but like there's a level of legitimacy there but particularly in

my side hustle where I create content and I have for a very long time it's hard to be like I take photos for Instagram or and you you almost fall down this hole of having to justify it and be like oh my god no it's like a billion dollar industry and like it's marketing and it's this and it's that and you know I really find myself trying to back myself up with all of these things like I what I do isn't enough and it's like well it is because huge companies pay me money to do these things for them and that should be fine like I shouldn't have to justify it any further but I really feel like I do and it is it's a level of embarrassment because I feel like people who aren't in that space don't understand and would you be the same freelancing for sure for sure

especially with a podcast I'm always like if people are like George does a podcast I'm like yeah it's just a little old thing on the side and then I had actually not that little I know the other day one of the boys from work was like oh what's this podcast you speak of and I was like oh it's called she's on the money he looked up he was like oh my god like 4.7 000 bloody reviews or whatever it was he's like how many listens do you guys average anyway we went into it and he it was weird seeing him kind of like switch and be like oh you're like this is legit like you're not just in on in your bedroom floor with two microphones just chatting there's a little bit more to it and that was I'm going to be honest like really really satisfying yeah exactly so

just a little old thing on the side but yeah no I think it is a really interesting space and you know not to bring gender into the fold too much but I think especially with the content creation and kind of influencer space it is female dominated and I think there is a correlation between why those industries aren't taken seriously because it is female dominated I find this is something that really annoys me because I am in the content space but the media particularly the way they position influencing partially but also other like YouTube or any of those other platforms podcasting as well that it's positioned as like silly little girls who are really vapid who care about themselves and they're super self-absorbed and they want to listen to the sound of their own

voice it just gets me going like it makes me so mad and you're right like do men in this space get it for sure but it really feels like it's being trivialized because it's something that women are primarily doing. And a lot of the time it's areas that women are passionate about. So, you know, sometimes fashion and beauty, if we look at the beauty gurus that I grew up watching, you know, now it's evolved into like the educational space where, you know, finance or women's rights, politics, podcasts and platforms that are aimed to make these concepts that have previously been elusive more accessible. And it still feels like the really hard work that these women are doing is being diminished yeah it's not being taken seriously

no and it's like hey my dude or dudette like comes it comes from women as well like these people are working so hard and things that look easy going back to your friend even if you were making a podcast from your bedroom floor yeah it's that I mean that's where we started yeah it's not easy it's a lot of hard work to script and conceptualize and edit and produce and market and you're the person doing all of that a lot of the time when you're starting out it's one or two people and that is really I think undervalued and underappreciated a lot of the time yeah and it just makes me really mad for sure and it does it extends to so many industries the music industry Taylor Swift versus Vance Joy they put it the same music Vance Joy is taken seriously Taylor

Swift just a fluffy old little pop singer I don't know where I heard that comparison recently it's not my own, but it's very frustrating. Let's get back on track. Sorry, it's rained in. I loved it. So let's talk about the difference between working for a non-for-profit and a corporate, Jess. So if we work for a corporate, presumably we're going to be able to make more money, even if we're doing the same job as we were in a non-for-profit. Do you think that can lead to feelings of inadequacy? I think so, for sure. And non-for-profit is a really interesting space because it's a little bit more set. I think the salary bands are much more specific and probably a bit tighter, like you said, than corporate. And it can be hard if you have goals.

And let's be honest, most of us do. It can probably be quite difficult to reconcile the passion that you have for the work that you're doing because non-for-profits do incredible work that's super impactful. Whereas sometimes if you're working big corp, you can feel a bit like a cog in the wheel. I've never been in this position personally, so I don't mean to speak out of turn, but I think, yeah, grappling with the comparison of like, oh, I could go work over here and just turn up every day and do my job and be paid more money, or I can do this work that I feel passionate about would be a little bit of a struggle. And yeah, again, that kind of internal conflict leading to those feelings of inadequacy and

comparison and, you know, questioning maybe your choices a little bit as well, because I think at the root of it, these feelings of guilt come from a lack of confidence in ourselves and what we're doing and the choices we're making and the money we're earning and the jobs that we're doing. And so I could definitely see how that could be a problem. And to anyone who is experiencing that, I think that I would say, just really think about what you're doing and the impact that you're having, because the not-for-profit space does incredible things. And there is so much value in being able to say, I'm doing something that's changing the world.

Yeah, 100%. Really well said there, J.Rick. Final question, and I think it might kind of impact both of us, or we might both be able to speak to it. I wanted to talk about the confronting nature of out-earning our parents or our partner. Big one. Yeah. Big one, particularly as a female. Correct, correct. Is that something you felt guilty about in the past? I think I've-

Have you experienced that? Yeah, I've said on the pod before, my partner's in his last year of uni, so this year he's spending his entire year on placement, which means that he's not earning money, unfortunately. So even without that, I'm out earning him. And then when he steps into an entry level role, I will certainly be out earning him still for a year or two before he works his way up. I don't feel guilty. I think I've gotten quite good at going, hey, like the path that I've chosen has led me here and I've worked really hard for it. He's obviously a mature age student. His path has looked very different to mine and that is not a bad thing. But I think it's definitely for me

been more about, well, reconciling what does that look like in a relationship and going back to that equality versus equity concept and, you know, how can we make things easier on each other when we're working towards shared goals? That's interesting. I feel like I'm kind of similar to you. I don't really feel that guilty. As we shouldn't. Sorry, doll. Yeah, maybe it's working here. It's rubbing off on me but I definitely understand women who do feel that way or men or non-binary friends but I think it's a sign that you're in a really good and non-toxic relationship if you can celebrate each other's wins and not compare yourself to your partner and be like oh I'm earning more I'm winning like that's not what it's about it's a team it's a partnership yeah

so I think that is interesting if you are feeling guilty I think having a conversation with your partner is a really healthy thing to do and just say, oh my gosh, like I'm, you know, feeling a little bit bad or I'm feeling like this. And as you say, if they're a good partner, they'll be saying, babe, no, like I'm so happy for you and I'm so proud of you. And maybe you can look at ways again that you can kind of equalize things. You know, maybe you look at splitting your rent percentage based or something like that. But if you are feeling guilty, I think that, yeah, like we said before, really going back to the root of why. Because it's not a bad thing. It's a really fantastic thing that you're earning good money and that you're putting yourself

and your partner in a position where you can achieve the things that you want to and you can build that lifestyle. And, you know, if your partner's not there yet, what can you do to help them along the way? Do you need to encourage them to stand up for themselves and get, you know, ask for that pay rise or that promotion? Or are they like my partner and they're in the middle of studying and they just need sometimes a bit of emotional support or a, hey, like you're studying late, I cooked dinner. There are other things I think that you can bring into a relationship that are super valuable that aren't money. Yes. And there's a very good chance that you as a human being are just contributing them without even recognizing that. So taking a step back from the

financial side of things and going, hey, like what other valuable things am I doing and can I do in this partnership to really make it equal and loving and fulfilling. Yep. 100% relationship advice podcast. Oh my God, I love it. If you do need more tips on achieving equity within a relationship, we did do a whole podcast on that a couple of months ago, maybe. So have a little scroll back to find that one.

Jayrick, I think that is probably the perfect place to leave it today. I feel like the moral of the story is to go easier on yourself. Yeah. Just don't be so harsh. If you need someone to tell you that you are worthy and deserving of where you're at, whether you're earning more than you think you should be or not as much as you think you should be, let it be us. You are doing really well and life is a journey and not to get super like super smooshy-mooshy on you, but you're doing good things and you're only partway through your life. Unless you're, you know, a hundred years old, hopefully, and knocking on the door, you've got so much time to do things and, you know, where you are now isn't where you're going

to be forever. And I, yeah, just cut yourself some slack. Yeah. And sometimes you just need to hear someone say that. Love that, Jay Rick. All right, let's jump into the boring but important stuff, guys. The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances.

She's on the Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or a financial decision. And we promise Victoria Devine and She's on the Money are authorised representatives of Infocus Securities Australia, Proprietary Limited, ABN 47-097-797-049, AFSL 236-523. And if you need someone to support you,

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