She's On The Money - Why Women Need to Work 50 Extra Days to Earn the Same As Men... And How to Push Back

Episode Date: August 18, 2025

Women need to work 50 extra days just to earn what men made last financial year… and today, August 19, marks those extra days. It’s called Equal Pay Day, and in this special bonus episode Victoria is joined by Dr Samone McCurdy from the Workplace Gender Equality Agency to unpack the reality of the gender pay gap. But don’t worry, this isn’t your average “boring stats” chat. This is one of those conversations that’s equal parts frustrating, eye-opening, and empowering… the kind that’ll fire you up to demand better for yourself and for every woman who comes after you. Inside this ep:💸 Why the gender pay gap isn’t just “equal pay for equal work” 💸 The real reasons women are stuck playing financial catch-up to men💸 How the gap shows up beyond your your payslip and into every part of your money life💸 How falling behind today snowballs into less wealth and fewer choices tomorrow💸 Why “just ask for a raise” isn’t the fix, and what actually needs to change💸 The practical moves you can make right now to start closing your own gap Links & Resources:🔗Sign up to the WGEA Newsletter🔗More info on why Equal Pay Day even exists 🔗 The Gender Pay Gap Explained 🔗 How to Calculate a Gender Pay Gap 🔗How does your employer measure up?🔗Compare your employer to your industry and national data Join our Facebook Group AKA the ultimate support network for money advice and inspiration. Ask questions, share tips, and celebrate your wins with a like-minded crew of 300,000+.And follow us on Instagram for Q&As, bite-sized tips, daily money inspo... and relatable money memes that just get you.Acknowledgement of Country By Nartarsha Bamblett aka Queen Acknowledgements. The advice shared on She's On The Money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances. She's On The Money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision. If you do choose to buy a financial product, read the PDS, TMD and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money Sherpa PTY LTD ABN - 321649 27708, AFSL - 451289.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

My name is Natasha Bamblett, I'm a proud First Nations woman, and I'm here to acknowledge country. Tii, gulinyan ganya, nianakaka yao yinbina waka, nianakai nianbina yakarumja, duminyagumiga dumiga ithawaka nirawamundamun imalan. Mumu bangada boma ininyalan waka, gaunan yakarumja, wutunarana. Hello beautiful friends. We gather on the lands of the Aboriginal people. we thank acknowledge and respect the aboriginal people's land that we're gathering on today take pleasure in all the land and respect all that you see she's on the money podcast acknowledges culture country community and connections bringing you the tools

knowledge and resources for you to thrive she's on the money she's on the money Hello and welcome to She's On The Money, the finance podcaster that knows financial empowerment starts with saying the quiet parts out loud. I'm your host, Victoria Devine, and you might be wondering, why am I coming into your ears on a Tuesday? Well, today is not just any old Tuesday. day. Guys, it is Equal Pay Day here in Australia, a day that exists because contrary to what the men in the comments section would have you believe, the gender pay gap is real. And no, it's not just about two people being paid differently for the same damn job. So today, we are dropping into your feed with a little bonus episode to unpack what the gap actually is,

why it exists and what we can do about it. And to do that, it's not just me. I've brought in an absolute powerhouse. Dr. Simone McCurdy is one of the leading voices in workplace gender equality. She's worked with everyone from Victoria Police to national policy makers and now leads the insights team at WGEA, the agency that literally publishes Australia's gender pay gap data. If you've seen those headlines about how your employer stacks up in the gender pay gap, Simone and her team are the ones behind it. Welcome to the show, Simone. I am genuinely so excited about this episode, even though it's a really terrible topic. I'm really excited to be here as well. As I was saying before, it's good to meet people

who are as excited about talking gender pay gaps and gender equality in the workplace as I am. It's a funny topic when we talk about it in that way, right? Because like, I'm excited to talk about it, but it shouldn't exist. So it's like, I'm excited, but not for the reasons you guys might think. I just think that what a platform to be able to talk about this today. And I just feel so special that you have found the time to come on our show and talk to us about this because I can talk about the gender pay gap until the cows come home. I use your research. I quote your stuff all the time. But sorry, to have the big dog in the big chair, like this is the best thing in the entire world. As I mentioned in your intro,

you've spent your entire career working in spaces that champion women's equality. What first drew you to this work and what is your secret to being so passionate about it? Well, I was actually going to be a human rights lawyer. I really wanted to. Look, I'm not surprised by that. That does not surprise me at all. And yeah, I just, I think there, you know, I just went once I sort of started thinking about this work and being in industrial relations, which is where I sort of ended up, just seeing the inequality and particularly in the workplace when technically everything should be contractual. You know, you turn up to a place, you provide your labour, your heart and soul for a certain amount

of hours. It's all sort of a guaranteed under contract. And yet it's a place like any community that we find a lot of variation. So I was really excited about dipping into that. I think the passion just stays, but I think I really started to become wanting to take a deep dive into what drives things like gender pay gaps when I have my baby um I changes you it absolutely and before you're pregnant you're going it won't change me I'm a passionate woman with a career and like it I'm sorry as someone who also has a kid I'm like yeah so what they say is true I've just become this 1950s housewife you know done all the right totally you know you actually like up level your beast mode I feel we become even more aggressive about the things that we're passionate

about because we realise how impactful they are for future generations and I'm like I'm not having my literal son grow up thinking that's normal absolutely not yeah absolutely and I think you know part of the the journey for me was then going back and doing a PhD and I got to sit in the lounge rooms of a whole range of couples talking to them about the impact of children on their work and family and what policies they used and that just solidified for me that there's something really had to change so that's something I think about actually each and every day icon behavior so I have to ask what is it actually like doing this work day-to-day because like all of that is very aspirational and really inspirational but I feel like you could fall into a bit of a slog like

because I feel like we are pushing stuff uphill when it comes to gender pay gap I feel like so many people are non-believers they go that doesn't exist and like that narrative is exhausting because like, I'm such a factual person. I'm like, sorry, like do some research, like your incompetence is showing. But do you feel hopeful about where we're heading at this point in time? Or do you feel like we're currently just on the long slog? Like what's that like day to day? Because it could be exhausting. Yep. I think I've been doing this for 22 years now. So I have to say more than at any other time in that career, I feel enormously hopeful and feel like we really are on a fast track to change. I think part of that comes from the privilege that I have is going and talking to

people each and every day, and particularly going into the boards and C-suites of the biggest organisations in Australia, and some of the greatest minds in Australia. And I talk to men and women about how they're leading those corporate teams, how they're thinking about it from a business perspective. And I have to say my sense is there is a real genuine curiosity. I don't think it is performative. I think there's a real curiosity about how they can change this. They know it's important. They know it's important to their people and their shareholders and their communities. I think the biggest thing is they want to learn more about it. So they're certainly open to that. And I think the other part is the legislative framework that we have now

through publishing gender pay gaps and now most recently putting in place compliance targets for organisations that have 500 or more employees. It really has set up the platform to ensure that those boards and those CEOs and the executives are actually intervening in a meaningful way in a purposeful way and doing something different and those two things coming together I think the intent and the will to learn and the legislative environment that is requiring them to to step into the space on a regular and informed basis there's never been a better time I think if we ever have a chance of turning the tide it's now and I'm so excited about it because even in the lead up to this day, I've seen just more amplified social media, more people talking about

it, more women of influence talking about it. And I just go, this is so exciting because for a long time, I don't think women who were in leadership positions or positions of influence were comfortable talking about it because of the backlash that they would get. They'd go, well, they do, but like if you got them one-on-one, they would say, yeah, absolutely. I believe in it. Like we need to fix but they weren't as willing to take to their social media platforms and share their narrative or share their story because they'll be like look yes it's going to reach the right audience but it's also going to reach this other audience and that can be exhausting as well and I just see so many women going do you know what put that in the bin I don't even care about the people who have

hate for this I just see such a clarity in the content creation this year as opposed to every other year and to me I'm like yes this is what I've been trying to yell about the whole time like yeah so I want to go back to your work for a second tell me about the current organization you work for so you work for the WGEA what do they do I know but like for our community what do they do how do they do it and why them well WGEA the workplace gender equality agency is a federal government agency we are a small but mighty team of around 60 people who on various levels either pursue organisations, not actually pursue them in that kind of compliance way, but really help them to bring their best data forward in a collective sense. So they report

to us every single year. So we have a regulatory function where we collect data from the workplaces on gender equality. Now, what we do with that data is analyse it and we send it back out. It It helps to inform government, for example, on policies and practices that they need to put in place. But most importantly, it informs organisations and employers about how they're tracking on gender equality, on the metrics and the data that actually matter. And importantly, we really now are trying to move into a different space, which is helping them build their capability and their capacity, which is what my team do on a daily basis, to make meaning of that data. And that's really important because it is different for each organisation. And then build

the capability and the capacity in their own organisations to actually do something purposeful and meaningful with that data and create the change that, as I said, I think there is the aspiration and there is certainly the will but not everyone is able to understand how to do that and so we have this little mantra at WGEA that we shift people from knowing better to doing better and we really try to bring in that practice element to help organisations to understand and find meaning in that data. So it's data for a purpose, it's not just not just reporting. That's right, organisations go through a little bit of pain because it's quite a detailed report that they have to do every year. And we're getting better and better

as an agency, I think, in streamlining that process. But the most important thing that we really want to do each and every day is help organisations to think that it's worth it, that they can use that data in a meaningful way and create more gender equal experiences in their workplace. For me, that's really exciting. Like just data, as someone who has a background in psychology and statistics I just get very excited about that but data tells a story and like so it's not just about collecting the data it's about your team really extrapolating that out and being like well this means this and this looks like this and this is going to be the outcome like that's the power in data and I'm just I'm so excited to see what you guys are going to

do this year because I obviously today is the 19th of August as we are publishing this but it is equal pay day today. And I think a lot of people are like, oh, a random day for equal pay day. It's actually not a random day. How has that date been decided and what does it tell us? Yeah, no, it's certainly not random. It's very, very purposeful. It is actually the amount of days from the end of the financial year that women have to work in order to make pay parity with gross yes that's gross but also very cool that you guys did that but also ill so 50 days yeah on average that figure comes from the abs you look at um the gender pay gap they rate that at the moment at about 11.9 so 11.9 difference between you know the the weekly average earnings

of men and women, all things being equal. And that equates to 50 extra days that women have to work in order to have that pay parity. Because we aren't doing enough already. No, we're a bit, you know, leisurely, aren't we? Yeah, like we've just got that extra time up our sleeves, like about all the data in, like if we extrapolate it out across every other area of our lives, we just have so much free time

so it just makes sense to give us that extra work. it drives me insane and my community know I'm quite vocal about this online and have been known to get in a little bit of a disagreement in the comments section but every single time it comes up on our social media on someone else's social media there is always going to be that person in the comments section that says this isn't real it's actually illegal to pay women less than men for the same job. And what do you have to say to that? Well, look, I think my response is always curious. I think people come to this at different levels of understanding. And I think it's important, certainly for me and, you know, working with a whole host of organisations and people,

it's a really common misconception, but it is actually that, a misconception. The gender pay gap is real. And certainly the way that we approach it is looking at a total remuneration pay gap, which includes not, it's not equal pay for equal work. That is something very different. And I think, you know, as some of your avid contributors have pointed out, it is illegal in this country to have the same job and pay a woman differently to a man. Yes, that's not rocket science. You are correct. That is illegal. That's actually not what we're talking about though. So sit down and listen. Yeah. So, it is sort of a very different calculation and it's an important one. That total remuneration approach looks at not just the pay differences between men and women

in terms of wages, so what you would earn as a salary, but all that other discretionary kind of remuneration that goes into a package. Things like superannuation, overtime, bonuses, because it's actually here that we start to see the differences and importantly the differences over the life course, which I know you and your community are right on because it speaks directly to things like superannuation, which have that cumulative effect. I will jump up and down every single day until I die about this topic.

Like, you want to talk about superannuation? Sit down, let's go. Like, I just, and it's not because I want you to just be rich. I want you to have exactly the same opportunities and not miss out and that's the important part here so many women are missing out and that's where we need to have a quick conversation about the difference between well what is equal pay and then what is the gender pay gap because I think a lot of people just go oh the gender pay gap is about equal pay for women and that's actually a completely incorrect statement so tell me the difference between the two and how if we're maybe

having some conversations because most people listen to our podcast in the morning. Most of them are in their cars on their way to work. Hi, I hope you had a coffee because you're going to get to work and maybe you're going to talk about the gender pay gap and you might come up against, well, that's illegal. What's the difference between the two? Well, the difference is ultimately in the calculation. And I have to say ultimately in the intent. So, you know, when we're talking about like for like pay gaps, we are talking about that legal framework that says it is just illegal to pay a woman and a man differently. You know, you cannot pay people differently based on their gender. So that's sort of a given. And as I said, a lot of people think

that that's what the gender pay gap is about. But the gender pay gap represents the total sum of the disadvantage that women accumulate over a period of time. So we measure it in 12 months, every 12 months. And into that goes things like superannuation, discretionary pay, bonuses, those kinds of things. And that's when you get the real picture of that disadvantage that's often hidden. So I just, I want to sort of step back and really be clear that I don't think that any organisation or any manager, male or female, would actively go out of their way to discriminate on the grounds of gender, for example, or probably any of the other protected attributes. I really get that sense that it's not necessarily a deliberate thing. But what organisations now

have is a responsibility to understand exactly what is driving their gender pay gaps. And it's those hidden things that we often don't think about. And I can give you a really great example most recently, working with an organisation who could not work out how the gender pay gap was still existing in their graduate cohort. So they bring a lot of graduates into their organisation every year and they track them after five years and there's a gender pay gap. The men are getting paid more than the women. Now they started on the same salary. They had the technically exactly the same opportunity with exactly the same grad programme I'm assuming. Exactly. So all things being equal. So then when they're tracked over that time, when we started to break down the data,

we actually saw that the men were going into the areas of the business that like finance, IT, we know what happens at the end of financial year, right? There's this flurry of activity to close everything off, to get all your reports done, et cetera, et cetera. There's lots of overtime involved in that. Now, the women were mostly going into things like HR, marketing, sales, those kinds of things. And the overtime, for example, just wasn't available in those particular positions. So there we have a really clean example of absolute unintentional bias and disadvantage that was happening in a program that really attempted to make things equal. But yet when we pursue and had a look at the data and unpacked it, we can see that there was a

disadvantage. Now that accumulates over the life course. You are already behind the eight ball and that's exactly the effect that we're trying to get employers to be more cognizant of and really help them to understand what's driving it so that they can stand the tide. And I'm glad to say that organisations are now looking at their graduates or their entry level programs with that in mind and thinking about where they're going off to their roles. I love that. I love that so much. and like we are she's on the money right so a lot of people that listen to my content are really excited about investing um and I akin this to an investing journey you know at the very start it kind of feels fruitless like the first 12 months like you've got your grad job maybe you've just

like downloaded sharesies or whatever and you've invested your first 50 bucks and like there's no real big changes and then like after the first year you've got like not that many dividends and you're like, wow, my chef at Olio made 30 cents. Like that's amazing. But the important thing, and I keep saying this, I'm like, when in doubt, zoom out. Like we need to look at the bigger picture. It's not about what's happening day to day or even week to week. It's not even about the conversations you and I are having about investing on the show. It's about those little things that add up over a long period of time that make the big difference. So, you know, it's the additional coffee money that you're investing. It's the additional things here and

there where you go, oh yeah, I did select, you know, on my investing platform, dividend reinvestment plan. And like these small things that you might not have known about that you can trigger and tweak that over the long-term, then I look back and go, holy guacamole, I have a hundred thousand dollars invested. And if I hadn't done this, I really would have had 10,000. That to me is a really good comparison to the gender pay gap because day-to-day you're going into these organizations people are passionate they don't want a gender pay gap but then when we zoom out we go okay cool like let's look at a 10-year time frame on someone's career let's pretend they've both done that grad program and somehow stayed with the same organization for 10 years we're

looking at them going wow they did the same degree the same opportunity the same grad program that woman's now on seventy thousand dollars and that man's on 180 how did how did we get here and it's not because they're not enjoying their jobs it's because there have been a series of small things along the way that guide different genders in different ways and that could be completely subliminal and we actually need to kind of like get rid of our blinkers and go well what does that look like how does that work so just the idea that people are even looking at their grad programs to eliminate this makes me so excited because as someone who did a grad program so gendered like just even accidentally like I was the one that was asked to empty the dishwasher

and you know when you're like cleaning up afterwards yeah but like it's just all of those things where it's just like default my job somehow and I'm not saying that that's because people expect it I think also as women I'm the first to say yes I'm a people pleaser yes like if you're like oh V can you give me a hand of course I can I'm not going to say no but like my colleague, he might have said, oh, I can do it after I finish this report. I wish I had the balls to say that. And then I didn't, which is why we need Wajeah to come in and kind of have our backs and go, actually, this is unacceptable. Like these small things are the big things and the big things change lives. And so. Yeah. Victoria, on that point, I mean, I think

that's probably what Wajeah is now trying to do something different because what you've touched on there is the intersection of some structural things, so the way things have been, particularly in maybe an industry, in finance, let's just say that. It's obvious, isn't it? It's, yeah, very sort of, it is quite gendered and the results and the data show that. But then there's also the personal and the individual circumstances and this sort of social cohesion of we are falling into roles, even within ourselves. And so I want to urge people and particularly women and particularly your cohort who really can change the trajectory of their lives right now by thinking about this, to think about Equal Pay Day as an investment day in themselves. Yes, it might seem

small because it's only the 19th of August and it's Tuesday and you're in your car driving to work. You probably weren't thinking about something's dramatic, but it's the tiny little things that are going to mean that ultimately you are wealthier, you are better off, you are more financially stable. You are even, you have better wellness. When we work towards all these things, it's not just like, oh yeah, she has more in her super. She doesn't care though. Like it's, it's everything like financial wellbeing impacts your social, your emotional, your financial, obviously your, like your literal wellbeing across the board. And that's what we're talking about. like it's not just oh it'd be nice to have a few more dollars hey that's not it that's not it yeah

and when you say no to whether it be actually we'll all clean up after the morning tea oh no I'm not stacking the dishwasher on my own morning tea you probably had to organize yes you know when you say no to that but also to something on a day like equal pay day where you actually do go and have a look we've actually with G we've put together a calculator where you can actually go and calculate the amount of days. That's so depressing. So helpful, thank you, but that's so depressing. Yeah, and have a conversation about it and then think also about how you're behaving. So when it does come to things like performance appraisals, when it does come to things like putting your hand up for a bonus, when it comes to both men and women not just stepping away from

the workforce to care, but how they behave and internalise some of those unwritten codes and words that are absolutely real in organizations to think about that and try and choose differently. And I think that's really what the message is. And that can be hard. It is really hard. So we're not saying, oh, it's so easy. Just say no. Like no is a full sentence. That's really challenging, especially if you've fallen into being that person that your organization relies on. Like Sam just does it. Like she just does it. Right. And they're not even thinking about it. They're not thinking about the impact long-term, but long-term that's going to change your life. And, you know, I think everything I do at She's On The Money is to empower women to be more

financially stable because money is power. And when women have power, the entire world changes for the better. Like I cannot give you an example of when women have been given money and they haven't impacted their community positively. Like what an incredible thing to do. But it all starts with these days like Equal Pay Day where you go, well, what is that? How does that work? What does that mean for me and it's not these big grand gestures of posting on social media or like me getting in arguments in the comment section where people are saying that it's not true it's actually going I don't care what other people are saying it's like pushing back from the things that are happening in your organization just slowly and surely so that you're on the trajectory that

puts you in the best possible position and it's not just women right so like there's obviously like a number of different factors like culture and age and disability that I think we should touch on here as well to keep in mind because like there are going to be women in their cars maybe going to work or even just some of our community members who don't work at the moment who are like you know Victoria I'm disabled I can't work but I love she's on the money and there are a heap of them which I adore but like you two have an impact but what do we need to keep in mind when it comes to how the gap impacts different cohorts of women. And I think this is probably something also for, you know,

maybe the CEOs and boards that may be listening to you. If not, we'll see what we can do about that. But, you know, to actually be thinking about what they call this intersectionality. So it's a really sort of, I guess it's a label that we use when we look at the intersection of disadvantage. And so for this example, you know, we're thinking about gender pay gaps and we're thinking about the disadvantage of women and how they accumulate

that over the life course. So there's a time element to that. We also look at the multiple disadvantages and trying to tease out, and we're certainly starting to do this with data, trying to tease out what the impact of that multiple disadvantage is. Again, it works like compound interest. So you might be a white woman living in the city in teaching. And so we would look at that and go a gender pay gap if we were to calculate that for that cohort comes out at a certain number because you know you're in a teaching industry your age those kinds of things but if we take that and think about a woman of color in a rural I know and I hate the data I hate I hate it because I look at it and I look at all of our first nations friends yes and I just go

what it's even more unfair like what can I do to support here it's conversations like this it is it is to be really aware so that's the first thing to be aware that actually people do experience multiple disadvantages and it is again very real and it does show up in gender pay gaps if you do start to go through your data at an organisation level but to understand that there's things like you know even rurality where you live how old you are you know are you a woman of colour are you a person living with a disability all of these things accumulate and I call it's like being pecked to death by a duck. It sort of is one thing after another, after another that accumulate over the life course. And this is why we want people to stop and think about this. And we also want,

you know, the boards and the C-suites and all of our HR and diversity practitioners to take that pause and think about not just who these gender pay gaps are impacting and the different cohorts in their organisations, but importantly, what they're going to do about it. And there's so many easy things that they can do, even at board level, talking about a board that had donated, for example, some money, you know, it was a considerable sum of money and they'd given it to a football club. So we sort of unpack that and guess what we are encouraging them to do is to go, if you put a gendered lens on that, you would see and you'd want to trace where those dollars went. And on your website, and this is about the intent, and it is genuine. I don't think it's

all performative. It's genuine. When you're more informed, you can choose better, right? Yeah, 100%. And it's not about you not doing the right thing. Sometimes you just, if you don't know better, you can't do better. If you don't know, that's exactly right. And so we're sort of having a look at that and going, if you put a gendered lens over that and trace that money. How could you have spent that money differently, for example, or in a way that really helped and was equal in terms of empowering women? So, you know, were the change rooms there for both the boys and the girls? What part of it did you put into your community in encouraging girls to come and play football? What are the ways in which you could genuinely demonstrate being conscious of

the way that you're giving. That's a great thing to give money into a community. But if we become more conscious of how we do that, then we're able to actually stem, I guess, the tide of disadvantage and importantly, turn the tide to advantage for all. So that's happening in the workplace, in the community and their shareholders, for example, want it. And it's a good thing. I promise. We see higher shareholder return when gender equality is taken into consideration in organization. So sorry, that's a pretty good business case to make it a priority. And I have recently had a few conversations with people, two people, and they were like, what the hell am I meant to just start from scratch and get rid of all my policies? And I'm like, no, but we can just

start here. Like we're not starting from scratch. We're just starting today. And it's not about getting rid of every single policy and changing things completely. Although I love that it's actually about doing what you said. Let's just look at one charitable donation. Where did that go? What does that actually look like in terms of impact and how could have we had more impact? We're not saying don't do what you did because like, let's be honest, a charitable donation, amazing. But what could we do to maybe have more impact to make those dollars go further and actually contribute ultimately to higher shareholder return? And I think that my time working in corporate and my time in organisational psychology and people and culture tells me a lot

about, you know, ultimately to get organizations and the C-suite level to care, we have to go back to things that impact the business. We have to go back to shareholder return. We have to talk about shareholder value. I'm sorry, the maths, maths here. So why aren't we talking about it more? Cause like, ultimately I can make you more money. I can make you more popular in society and everybody wins. Like I think, and this is a flex for me, my husband's very sexy, right? So like he works in um like an executive role and he is always saying this isn't a women's issue this is a people issue and like he's I love it like this is why I married him because like like 10 out of 10 but like he will be the first one if someone's like oh did you want a coffee

he's like why are you asking like what's going on I'll get that and like he tries to step up and role model those behaviors that are he believes are typically female in an organization and go, no, you shouldn't have to do that every time. Like, it's nice that you're offered, but like, I'll take all of the teacups that are bulking up on everybody's desk to the kitchen and like make a point that it's not meant to be one person. And I'm obsessed with that.

But let's take a really quick break. Don't go anywhere, guys. All right, we are back. And we often talk about the gender pay gap and, you know, on She's On The Money, like it's quite you could be led to believe that I think this is a women's issue and that because it's on a women's podcast it's a women's issue but what are the broader social and economic consequences of not involving everybody in this conversation and of essentially not closing the

gap like why should everybody become a Steve yep love you Steve shout out to Steve 10 out of 10 he doesn't listen to my podcast he says it's really annoying yeah and that's exactly he's honest what we want is we want champions you know to to to really be you know just working in a different way they don't have to you know change everything but it's about thinking in a different way and then when we think about the influence that you've obviously had on him and then the education oh wait till you meet his mother like uh-huh like that's where that comes from. For sure. And it's a good thing. And importantly, employees want that. So employees are looking, it gets back to that original conversation that we had about, you know,

it's a contractual arrangement. I show up, I give you my intellectual capital, my time, my heart, my energy for a certain period of time. I think now we're starting to see women and men asking even at job interview level, what's your gender pay gap? What's the pay parental leave policy? those kinds of things. Now that makes sense when we take a big helicopter view and think about the economic costs of not doing this. We might turn to things like having a look at participation rates, for example, GDP growth and those kinds of things. So a couple of figures. You know, on average, there's research out there that says $898 million a week is the calculation on lost earnings. excuse me yeah that's a lot of housing do you know what is so frustrating is you I don't know

every time we talk about stuff like this on the show like my brain just immediately zooms out and thinks about the bigger picture and how the biggest growing demographic of people experiencing homelessness is women in their 50s and most of that could have been avoided if we'd really cared about their superannuation if we'd really cared about their career trajectories because it's all the little things and like I can go and talk to any of those women and I've spoken to many of them and it's all I didn't know that this is where I was going like I thought I was doing the right thing no one's going oh yeah I made some pretty bad decisions when it comes to career and I didn't have a good one like no these women have careers they have jobs but like their contributions to

superannuation those bonuses that bump things up along the way that's what's suffering yeah and that's not what's being prioritised and that ruins our society. Like at a societal level, this is a massive issue. It is at all levels. And I think, you know, even with starting to think about, and you hear the conversation now about productivity, for example, you know, thinking about our growth and our recovery after COVID, women's participation in the labour force is one of the best ways that we can gain momentum on things like productivity. And yet, when we reduce their participation in the workplace to this trope about choices, for example, or decision making, again, try and lean into these things in a way that is curious and dispel the myths and

increase the understanding. So, you know, one of the ways that I explain that is if you go to a wedding and they say, would you like the chicken or the beef? And you choose the beef. You cannot say anything about that person's preferred protein. They are choosing from constrained choices. So women choosing to go part-time, choosing to, you know, take the lesser job or the non-greedy job. There's all of these decisions. It's like a snakes and ladders game. Yes, exactly. And it's sort of, And it's not just what the women's decisions are occurring, but importantly, what decisions are we offering? And this is the power of things like gender pay gaps and data and enlightening the whole

range of people that make up an enterprise. So it's something that the women themselves would do, something that their managers would do, male or female. It's something that CEOs and boards will do. We start to have this wider cumulative effect. But it's not about women's choices, because those choices are ultimately constrained, not just in terms of stepping away from the workforce for a period of time, but what happens to them when they step back in. Now, importantly, that same thing, and I can speak about this

because it's my PhD study, that same thing happens to men. They reduce their capital and face discrimination in terms of if they become a primary caregiver. Now that tells us something incredible about what's going on in organisations and that is that we have this ideal worker norm that is full-time, no career breaks, always available to the organisation and anyone that works outside of that framework is reduced capital. at all. And so that's how gender plays out in organisations because it's usually the women who step away. And do you know what? It is crazy how that conversation happens. And I'm going to talk about my husband a lot here because when I had Harvey, my son, 18 months ago, my husband was

the primary carer. I had work, I had stuff to do. He took six months off and that was the plan. And like, we were both really happy with that. He has a very good career. So this isn't something where I was like, oh, you can afford to take the time off. It was actually just a conscious decision that he was like, no, I really want to do that. Like what an opportunity. It wasn't because we needed, needed it. We could have worked it out. But like he saw that the conversations that surrounded that decision to me were insane. Like just people going, oh, your wife doesn't want to do that. Oh, is your wife taking off any time? What does that look like? How are you going to know what to do with the baby? What are you going to do during, what is going to happen to your

career? And they're just questions and conversations that I just know if I had worked in a corporate environment and put my hand up and said, hello, I'm having a baby and I'm going to take six months off, people would have applauded me for only taking six months instead of 12. Whereas literal managers of my husband were saying, oh, what's going to happen to your career? Sorry, you don't care about women in the same way. Like when men start to do things that you stereotypically think are women's business, you seem to all of a sudden actually care about their career trajectory or what's going to happen with your superannuation if you're not contributing for six months. Sorry, I don't think any corporate entity says that to the women that are taking 12 months plus

off. Like, oh, what if you don't want to return? What if? Like that just frustrated me beyond belief because I just thought oh that'll be easy like your parental leave policy at your workplace is really good that's fantastic but all of a sudden it was those additional layers of conversation that were being had because it was a surprise that the male in my relationship was making those decisions and I think a lot of people had just assumed that the parental leave policy was made to benefit women but it didn't did it no so it was for me a really eye-opening conversation because thankfully we work in or I work in finance and I work in this space and like even though this conversation is about women I wasn't having my husband be like negatively

impacted by that I was like okay cool so I'll contribute to super we'll do this we'll do that like everything was like exactly how I think most people should run it but the conversations that surrounded that pay gap seemed to take priority because well he's a man and he needs career. And they really drove me insane. Yeah, it is. They're so real and tangible. It's such a great example. And I think that what we're really trying to do is not, I get, we're not demonising anybody in any organisation. We're not demonising men, not demonising women. You know, there's lots of things about childless women and, you know, that women don't help other women. Like there's all of this rhetoric out there. But the fact is that education, as you know, and enlightenment

is the first step. And, you know, people do things and make decisions that are often uninformed or they come from a place of they just don't know better. I mean, organisations, one really profound example was interviewing a couple who had worked for the same public sector organisation. They they reduced their work hours so that they could, you know, look after their children and share the load. So they were trying to do a shared care arrangement. Now, when the woman put in her form and spoke to her manager about her preferred options, it was signed off and that's all good and fine. When the man put in his form, the very first thing that the manager said was, so, mate, how long do you want this arrangement for? And I'm interviewing this couple and

And the woman went, no one would ever, as Ed never asked me, they'd had two kids and she'd gone part-time. Did he come back early? Yeah. And so that just goes to show what sits underneath that policy. That's the same policy being enacted in the same organisation but under different leadership circumstances. And that's when we see that hidden sort of gendered disadvantage

because it was assumed that the father would have a temporary arrangement. That can't be forever. But that can't be forever. Of course not. Are you sure? Six months? Because what we could do is four months and then you come back part time. Yep.

Where are those options when women put their hand up? Yeah. I think this is what has obviously amplified my passion in this space because I see that the option exists. So it's not that, you know, this was afforded to, you know, the person you interviewed or it was afforded to my husband can we please have these overlays when women put their hand up and say I want to go on maternity leave okay cool I'm your manager I love that for you but how are we maintaining your career how are we maintaining your superannuation

you know what flexible work arrangements could I give you so that you can return earlier and maybe like come back at a paced way as opposed to oh well you can only come back to a full-time role because all of a sudden, if I'd told you that there was a man in that role, there seems to be so much more flexibility. And I think that that's what drives me insane because we want equal opportunity. I'm not asking just for what the men have. I just want to have the same opportunity as them. And then if I choose to take another six months off or take 12 months off or don't return to the workforce at all, I want that to be because it was my choice, not because I got offered beef for chicken and I only had two options to choose from. And I actually am vegetarian. So I had to

actually opt out of the conversation completely and not have part-time and not have full-time because neither of those things met my criteria. So I just, it actually drives me wild because the deeper you dig and you would have found this, and I'm honestly envious you got to do a PhD. One day, one day I will become Dr. Divine and I will do a PhD in this area. It sounds good, right? Like I could I could be a doctor or a stripper like I think both would work stage name you know what I mean like people already ask me if divine is my stage name it's not it's my literal family name but like imagine Dr. Divine anyway this just grinds my gears in a way that I'm like how much more do we have to do to actually facilitate change and how do people not see this as being

as important as I'm seeing it yeah like am I seeing it from a delusional side of the road because it just looks like there's a whole heap going on and then from the other side of the road you can see a rainbow. I can't see that right now. So I think, yeah, for me it's more about just equal opportunity, like it's not necessarily you have to pay that woman exactly what you pay a man. Yeah, we already established at the start of this episode

that's actually illegal. It's actually putting on the table all of the options. All of the options and expanding those options. I mean, I think we see a lot of disparity, particularly in pay gaps at the senior most senior levels that's actually the biggest you know dollar for dollar pay gap once we get up into that because compounding interest it's like investing the bigger you get the worse it looks yeah and there's this real sense that you can only be a leader say in in an organization working full-time well that instantly you know many

women would still select out yep of that to go because we don't want beef we don't want chicken Sorry, can't have either of those. What about if we actually flipped the script and leant into this to go truly all roles are flex? And when we're looking at our leadership programs, we're not necessarily doing special leadership programs for women, because doesn't that just say that they've got to make up for something else? How about we get all the leaders in the room and help them to provide a gender equal experience across every little option and the employee life cycle, like flexible work practices, like recruiting, like paying pay for performance, thinking about these things in

just a more meaningful way. You don't actually have to do anything except think differently and then apply those skills in a different way. And I guess, you know, Equal Pay Day is a moment to reflect on that. And we really want to encourage all facets and areas of the business and the workplace to think about things differently, not just women having to raise their voices at work and having to pursue this, but get informed and then think about it critically and then think about taking action. We've got lots of resources at WGEA. 100%. And I think that's a good example of, it's not just a women's issue, it's everybody's issue. WGEA recently released, I would say some pretty eye-opening data so just specific always but like specifically this year

and I know you've come very prepared so for you what has stood out the most in the data that's been recently released yeah well I think overall when we have a look at the gender pay gap as a trend what is startling it is coming down so I think that is is a really positive yeah it's a really positive thing. But like compounding interest, we want it to see. Yes. We want it faster. Extrapolate over time. So this year it can take a little bit longer. That's fine. Next year has to be quicker though. And I think that we will start to see that. I think, you know, going back to the legislative changes, we know that even at the WGEA data showed a decline, there is this anticipatory effect of having to report this kind of data. So, you know,

the national gender pay gap, 21.8. Still not great. Let's do small goals. Like let's just get it under 20. Is that cool? And how do we help organisations to learn what's going to work for them in their organisations to bring that down, you know, to contribute to that in a meaningful way? Because that's going to be different depending on where women are working, at what levels, in what roles, how much they're getting paid, who's entering, importantly, who's staying in your organisation or exiting, which is another form of data that's really powerful. But overall, the scorecard shows absolute potential. We know that more organisations, and this is the thing that made me excited, calls for celebration, was we know more organisations

are doing a gender pay gap analysis. As they should. Yes, as they should. And it's something that is really increased and increased in focus. So organisations are attuned to this. They're starting to come on their radar. What also is important is that we found that there was an increase in them taking action. So whilst again, you know, that policy example. You can talk the talk, but you've got to walk the walk. Absolutely. It can sit there on a shelf in a handbook, but you actually need to pursue it. And so when you find out what's happening in your organisation through the gender pay gap, then you need to take action. And importantly, take the rightful action. So don't just stick

your ladder on any old wall. You want to make sure that it's on the right wall because, you know, if you're climbing up, you don't want to find out you're on the wrong wall. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I feel like that really ties into the theme that you guys have this year, which is how does your employer measure up? When's your equal payday? Which I guess encourages all of us to have a look at our own workplaces. And the real question I have here is like, how we're in the car, we're driving to work and we're thinking, God, that feels like a very big thing to be doing. Like, how do we individually go about doing that? Because good rocks and boats, like, and that's not what we're here to do. We're actually here to facilitate

positive change. Like we're not here to get people mad and riled up, but how do we actually go about that what should you know my community be looking for and just even thinking about because it's not just about facilitating conversation but like thoughtful narratives that we can consider ourselves and go oh how does that work what does that look like like what can we do what are we looking for and what can we actually do once we find a little bit of data yeah great question I guess there's two responses to that well the first thing on equal payday if you are listening to this and you're driving to work. When you get to work, log onto the WGEA website, have a look at the gender pay gap calculator and find out what is the number of days for your organisation based

on their gender pay gap, which is all there on the Data Explorer on the WGEA website. Confronting. And have a look. But also really user-friendly website. So there's no excuse not to. Aesthetic, very easy to find, go for it. We'll put the link to that in the show notes as well, because I'm going to do nothing if make it not easy as hell for you to do that. We'll see. You'll be on there all the time. Our down rate will be up.

I'm already on there all the time. Yeah. And it's not even my organisation I'm looking up. I'm just snooping other people being like, what do they do? Oh, I like drive past a billboard and I'm like, what do they do? What do they do? It's so creepy. I love it.

I think in general the community now are calling for this. They see the connections between a gender pay gap, for example, and thinking about retiring and retiring into poverty, superannuation, those kinds of things. So take the time today to go and have a look. What is your organisation's gender pay gap? Go and have a look what they've got on their website. And then I guess start those conversations

about the myths around the gender pay gap. And we covered those off early on about, it's not equal pay for equal work. It's actually a total remuneration calculation that considers the whole person's life course trajectory and thinks about discretionary pay, superannuation, access to overtime, those kinds of things. And the Wajia website has like a whole section

of how to answer those questions as well. Because one of the things that, you know, when I first started learning about this space, people would say, oh, but that's illegal. And I'd kind of go, oh, that's taken me off guard. Well, I don't know how to respond to that. they have all the responses and they're kind of borderline witty which I really like also on my social media today I'm going to be sharing a lot of the responses to those questions

because I just think that we need to get past the fact that it doesn't exist we know it exists here's how to dismiss that conversation really quickly and then turn it into a positive interaction as opposed to a no it's not only like we just don't need that conversation it's hard to dismiss it and move on and actually be really productive because I will argue till the cows come home it is in my nature like I don't know how to get rid of it I'm so sorry but like it's an asset look I'm gonna try to be less defensive acknowledge great that's actually a misconception and moving forward this is what it looks like and this is how you can contribute and I think that that's really powerful as well yeah and I think we do need we need all kinds of

voices and we we need not just women but we need men here as well I mean again be like Steve yes Be Steve. The moment we get a t-shirt, guys, be the Steve. Be more like Steve. He would be mortified as somebody who doesn't like social media. He doesn't like to be spotlighted. He's like, your podcast gives me the ick. I could never listen to it.

Like, proud of what you do, babe. But like, oh, like your voice on repeat, I already married you. I get it. I get it. But like, be like Steve. Champion women. He's going about it in terms of actions and so in his own quiet way and that can happen in organisations

and there's certainly opportunities to do those and again on the website we talk about strategy, we talk about action planning, we talk about a whole range of things from board level all the way down to line manager level and you'll be able to find some really useful resources. My team actually run masterclasses on a whole range of things, how to calculate a gender pay gap, how to do a responsive action plan, how do you design a job so that it can be a part-time or job share. These kinds of things, as you know, knowledge is power. So the more knowledge that you have, the more power you have, not just to, I guess, bring that into your organisation, but importantly, thinking about those little decisions that the women

themselves are attempting to make in that constrained environment and to become informed about that. Why would you want to select out of a job because it looks greedy? Why would you want to not put your hand up for a role or a promotion or apply for that job, throw your hat in the ring, ask them for job share, start to think about things in a very, very different way. And I guess what we're trying to do is help organisations to be able to receive that ball so that when women are saying, actually, I wouldn't mind being that executive leader of, you know, something other than HR or sales and marketing. But I would like that, you know, profit and loss portfolio. Thank you very much. Or I will take that seat as the chair of the board, that we're helping,

I guess, fertile, create fertile ground for that within organisations by building the capability to be able to catch that ball. So it's that push and pull. Obsessed. It makes me so excited just knowing that you are facilitating this as well, because it's one thing to have a government organization that's like yeah we prioritize this but like the team inside who are not just you know doing the work but like are champions for women and as obsessed with this topic as I am just means that I know that things are moving like you are actually facilitating positive change now I know we're running out of time very quickly which is very sad but if you and I were to sit down Sam and have this conversation again in five years,

what would you hope looks different? I would hope that the gender pay gap has come down. I predict that it will. I think we will. I predict it too. Yeah. Like will we pour enough optimism into this? Yes, absolutely.

And I'd really like to see the gender pay gap come down at a national level. And I would also like that to happen at the industry level as well, that industries are coming together in a more less competitive sense and of course there's obviously business is business you have to make a profit but there are things that they can do collectively as an industry to start to help and and gain momentum you know I think construction is a really good example at the moment who are really trying to pipeline more women into their industry and then also make it more safe and equal when they get there so I'd really like to see a

lot more constructive coming together of those communities at the industry level. I think the other thing that I would really like to see is this understanding that we are not in the same environment anymore, that there is a demand both legislatively, but also from shareholders, from investors, from communities, from employees, that actually is saying we require a gender equal experience. And we want to find out if we're going to get that in your organisation and how are you going to provide that. And to see more of the people who make those decisions across all of what I call the coalition of influence. That's the boards and the C-sweeps, HR and your diversity practitioners in organisations and your line managers all coming together, educate themselves,

get literate. You talk about financial literacy. I want everyone being gender equality literate, understanding how pay gap is calculated what drives it and how you can change it at a very basic level if in five years time we can be sitting here having that conversation I would be absolutely beside myself and I will be I'm gonna do that in our calendars maybe not even five years like let's just do a check-in every year I'm obsessed with it I feel like it's it's a narrative that I'm seeing in our community as well which makes me really excited even on an individual level when people are you know talking about their investing journey for example they are literally looking for organizations who champion this they are looking for organizations who you

know we talk about ethical investing we talk about ESG investing and a part of that ESG conversation is gender and I just see so much more of our community really prioritizing looking into that and going does that company do that because I don't want to invest if not and I think that those small things as well, just on an individual level, whether you are employed by these organizations or not, decisions around that can really impact the big picture as well. Because we know that companies, like all the research tells us, the companies that champion this and prioritize this have higher shareholder return. So ultimately, I know you said it's about business, but business is better when women are empowered. 100%. And even just on that super front,

on a closing argument, one of the things that I learned very early on in my career was a woman, Carol Schwartz, who is a philanthropist and an absolute gun in terms of gender equality and thinking more intelligently about how we create change. She said at this one forum that I was in, every woman who holds a super account has to think like an investor. You are an investor. go and ask how your superannuation is being invested if you do nothing else and it was such an empowering moment it's free you can go and do that today yeah and by the way it'll probably put you in a way better off position in retirement even if you aren't making extra contributions and i mean we're in the middle of a cost of living crisis we all want a good money win yes and are

they doing it in an ethical way but there is such a thing as gender lens investing there are superannuation funds out there. There are whole ETFs that prioritize it. Like there is one ETF on the ASX at the moment that is only made up of companies that have women on the boards. Yes. Sorry, slay, love. Yep. And I mean, exactly at the point that you made, it's not just about the business. It's actually about thinking about it in a holistic way. And we are investors. We have our hard-earned superannuation, you know, and we should be pursuing that and we should be understanding how that's being invested and to do that in a way that amplifies gender equality and a more equal experience for women and girls everywhere. Thank you so much for joining us.

This has been an exciting, empowering, a little bit frustrating, but like very good conversation. I feel like I am very excited for the rest of today and what is going to come over the next 12 months. Ujia are doing a lot of good work in a lot of good spaces. So I'll make sure to pop all of their information in the show notes. You guys can go and have a little bit of a sticky beak or even maybe a little sticky beak if you want to look into your own workplace and what that looks like.

So make sure you've got access to that. And maybe you could even start a few important conversations while you're at work today. If not, maybe in your group chats with your girlfriends. So thank you so much. I have appreciated this so much. And we will see you guys literally tomorrow on Wednesday for another episode.

And then again on Friday. Bye. Thank you. the advice shared on she's on the money is general in nature and does not consider your individual circumstances she's on the money exists purely for educational purposes and should not be relied upon to make an investment or financial decision if you do choose to buy a financial product read the pds tmd and obtain appropriate financial advice tailored towards your needs. Victoria Devine and She's On The Money are authorised representatives of Money

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