Short Wave - "A Very, Very Big Deal." Countries Take On Fossil Fuels

Episode Date: December 17, 2025

Many countries are frustrated with U.N. climate conferences. While some countries urgently want to transition away from fossil fuels — the main driver of global warming — others are blocking that language from climate agreements. Today on the show, Emily talks with Julia Simon from NPR’s climate desk. She takes us to Brazil and introduces us to a group of countries that are trying something new.Interested in more science and climate related news? Email us your question at [e-mail] to every episode of Short Wave sponsor-free and support our work at NPR by signing up for Short Wave+ at plus.npr.org/shortwave.See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for sponsorship and to manage your podcast sponsorship preferences.NPR Privacy Policy

You're listening to Shortwave from NPR. Hey, shortwavers. Emily Kwong here with Julia Simon from NPR's Climate Desk. Hey, Julia. Hey, Emily. It's so good to be here. I'm so excited to talk to you because you just got back from COP 30, the UN Climate Change Conference in Belén, Brazil, at the edge of the Amazon rainforest. How was it?

Well, I would say eventful is a good word to describe it. The conference took place in these big plastic tents. And the day before the conference was supposed to end, I was on the phone with my editor in the U.S. Sadie Babbitts. And then people started running through the tent saying there's a fire. Okay, there's really a fire. Jesus effing Christ, Cindy. Oh, no.

I know. I got a move on. Sadie's telling me to get out of it. The Brazilians are being set and they speak the language. Well, what happened? It seems to have been an electrical issue. Something caught fire. There was a huge blaze.

enveloping part of the tent. At least a dozen people were treated for smoke inhalation. Tens of thousands of us were evacuated. But when I ran out of the tent, the first thing I did was find this guy named Andres Gomez. Because, Emily, today's podcast, it's not about the fire. It's about what was supposed to happen just 15 minutes after the fire broke out. Andres is from Colombia, and he was working with the Colombian government and a group of about 20 other countries to make this big announcement. Something that climate experts say promised to be one of the most important things

to come out of this conference. Yikes. So you guys are trying to reschedule, I'm guessing? Who knows? We need everything to calm down and then ask the Colombian government. Oh, man. Today on the show,

what almost didn't happen at the climate conference in Brazil? A fire. upends a major announcement about tackling the biggest driver of global warming, fossil fuels. It came to Berlin with a clear goal. Keep the 1.5 limit. With and rich, of course, and align with science. This is a powerful war of science. We need to trust science. Will this announcement happen? Will it not happen? Stay with us. I'm going to stress eat chocolate. Anyone want to do that?

What would be a lovely idea? You're listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR. Okay, Julia, so before we talk about whether this announcement happens or not, what was on the table at this year's UN climate conference called COP 30? Well, quick refresher course. About 70% of the greenhouse gas emissions heating our planet, Emily, they come from burning fossil fuels. Facts.

Burning coal, oil, and natural gas is the single biggest driver of global warming. Exactly. And for the past 30 years, countries have been coming to these UN climate conferences to discuss how to tackle global warming. But many countries say these conferences, they're called COPS, do not have nearly enough emphasis

on the need to transition away from fossil fuels. Again, which is the main driver of climate change. I spoke to Juan Carlos Monterey, he's special representative for climate change of Panama, about this topic. Every time that we come to this COP, we try to re-debat science, we try to avoid talking about fossil fuels.

It's really, really stupid. It's like trying to deal with a patient that has COVID, but not treating the patient for COVID. Yeah, Emily, it took 28 years for the COP agreement to even mention transitioning away from fossil fuels. Ooh. I imagine that's really frustrating for so many countries who come to this conference. I would say some of the countries I spoke to would say frustrating is an understatement. Climate change is happening. And many countries came to Belain explicitly demanding language in the foreign.

final agreement about a roadmap away from fossil fuels. In fact, many countries like the United Kingdom, Mexico, Norway, they said they didn't want to leave the conference without that fossil fuel roadmap language. Hmm. Did they get their roadmap? No. No mention of fossil fuels. Wow. And so, like we said, many countries are deeply frustrated with this UN process. It's a process by consensus, Emily. So every country has to agree to the text of this agreement. And you have close to 200 countries in the process. And while Norway and Mexico are oil producers and they want a roadmap off of fossil fuels, some other big oil producers like Saudi Arabia, they do not. So you have some countries pretty consistently blocking text that mentions fossil fuels. Interesting. So this is the dynamic at COP. Is anyone doing anything about it?

Well, remember that guy we met from the top of the episode, Andres Gomez from Colombia? Yes. You found him after the fire. Exactly. He works for a group that is developing something new. I met with Andres that morning before the fire, and he told me what was supposed to happen later that day. I consider this under embargo. This isn't going to go out until later today. Famous last words. I know, right. The list, yeah, it's a very interesting countries, like Mexico, for instance. Andres was showing me on his phone, a list of about 20 countries that planned to announce.

counts, something called the first international conference on the just transition away from fossil fuels, or the Santa Marta Conference, for short. What is the Santa Marta conference? Well, like we said before, some of those countries that really want this roadmap away from fossil fuels, they're, again, frustrated with those consensus rules of COP, everybody has to agree. Yeah. These countries want to take action urgently. And just like if you're doing a group project, Emily, and there are some people who are really into it and some people who are not so much, these countries, some call them the high ambition countries. They're like, we want our own space. We want our own conference to really tackle the phase out of fossil fuels.

ASAP, here's Andres. We have these high ambition countries, which are 20, let's say, that we get the same number that we have now. So we'll have these countries which are convinced that we need to do something really quickly, and we are going to do that in April. So this conference in April 2026 that Andres is helping to organize, that will be the first global conference for the phase out of fossil fuels. It's in Santa Marta, Colombia, hence the name. And that's a big deal. Colombia's an oil, gas, and coal producer. Here's Irenae Velas Torres, Colombia's Environment Minister.

The idea of the Santa Marita conference is to have this first space in which we are completely clear that the facing out is necessary because it's not easy. No one is saying that it is easy. But if we don't face the problems, we cannot build the solutions. Okay, this is fascinating that this new conference has emerged. Yeah. I got to ask the why not just bring this to COP. I mean, COP is the place where the world came together around the Paris Agreement, around. around 190 countries agreed to try to limit warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius.

So why can't countries just, you know, stick to that? I mean, it's an important question. And in the Paris Agreement, countries did agree to limit warming and cut their emissions. But the thing about the Paris Agreement, Emily, is that it doesn't specify the specific steps countries will take. Here's Nikki Rice. She's Climate and Energy Director at the Center for International Environmental Law. The existing framework, the Paris Agreement, it doesn't contain a step-by-step playbook for how we're going to combat climate change or phase out fossil fuels. Also, it turns out the pledges that countries are making for the Paris Agreement, they're not enough to limit warming to 1.5 degrees Celsius.

A new UN report finds that right now countries are pursuing policies that would cut emissions by just 12% by 2035. What scientists say countries need to do is cut emissions in half by 2035. Yeah. Okay. So how does the Santa Marta Conference intend to be different? They tell me they're still nailing down the official agenda. But the big conversation topic is how to transition away from fossil fuels in an equitable way. So globally, there are still lots of subsidies for the oil, gas, and coal industries.

One thing that organizers tell me that they'll probably be discussing is, how to redirect that money away from oil, gas, and coal towards helping countries pay for things like more renewable energy and batteries. Also, there are tens of millions of people who work in the fossil fuel industries, people who work in coal mines and people who work on drilling rigs. These organizers say countries are going to have to find a way to get these people new jobs in an equitable and fair way. Yeah.

I mean, it sounds like these would be concrete measures to help countries. actually deliver on the goals of the Paris Agreement. Well, that's the goal, right, is to make the transition away from fossil fuels really happen. Sophie Hermann's is Minister of Climate Policy and Green Growth of the Netherlands. The Netherlands is co-hosting this new conference with the Colombian government.

And the minister says the Santa Marta Conference is complementary to what they promised in Paris. In Paris 10 years ago, we all said, okay, we have this ambition. But after you have said, you have the ambition, you also have to come to action. And that's what we are doing now. But Emily, there is one other thing that they plan to discuss in Santa Marta in the spring.

And that is something called the Fossil Fuel Treaty. Ooh, what is the Fossil Fuel Treaty? It is an initiative to make a legally binding treaty for a just transition to phase out fossil fuels. So 18 countries are already signed on, including Colombia, Cambodia. also a number of small island nations like Tuvalu, Banuatu, a number of big cities, Chicago, London, Kolkata. And this is the group that Andres works for. Nikki Reich, the lawyer we spoke to, advises them in her role at the Center for International Environmental Law. The hope is that in Santa Marta, they will get the ball rolling for another conference to begin this treaty writing process,

the ultimate goal being to make this legally binding document that would commit countries to transition away from fossil fuels. This is a very, very big deal. This is Jessica Green, political science professor at University of Toronto. She thinks this Santa Marta Conference and this potential fossil fuel treaty represent an inflection point for global climate politics. Of course, it remains to be seen what they will accomplish together. But this is something that academics have been talking about for a long time. time is that we need sort of smaller groups of countries, coalitions of the willing to forge ahead because the laggards are not willing to get with the program. And by the way, we reached out to the

American Petroleum Institute or API about the conference. The API is the biggest oil and gas trade association in the U.S. with offices around the world. API spokesperson Charlotte Law said in an email, quote, global energy demand is surging and, quote, ideological debates about about eliminating single energy sources are frozen in the past and distract from the real work ahead, innovating to deliver the energy the world needs with a smaller environmental footprint. Okay, good to know. So back to this conference, did Andres and everyone get to announce what they wanted to say at COP, given the fire? Well, we were all evacuated after the fire.

We weren't sure what would happen. But the next morning, we all gathered in the press conference room. Thank you very much for being here. And then Colombian Environment Minister Irene Velas Tores, she got on stage, flanked by about a dozen other country representatives, and made this announcement. This declaration is grounded in a simple scientific truth. Posit fuels are the primary driver of climate crisis.

For that reason, the government of Colombia, in alliance with the government of the Netherlands, announces today the first international conference on just transition away from fossil fuels. This conference... I looked over at Andres a few times during the press conference and he looked like he was tearing up. I caught up with him after. Andres. That was so great.

I saw you. Were you too? Almost. That was so moving and, I don't know, like very inspiring, like the perfect end. a cop that wasn't promised in anything, probably this would be the most important outcome of this cop. And Emily, some climate experts agree with him. The fact that this conference announced the establishment of another conference to phase out fossil fuels,

that may end up being one of the most important things to come out of this cop. I'm guessing you will be there in Santa Marta in April to cover it. You know it. I will be there to cover it 100% of Colombia for the Mundo, Papa. From Colombia for the world, yes. Julia, thank you so much for coming on Shortwave. Thank you, Emily. If you liked this episode, follow us on the NPR app

or your preferred podcasting platform. This episode was produced by Hannah Chin. It was edited by Sadie Babbitts and our showrunner Rebecca Ramirez. Tyler Jones checked the facts. Jimmy Keely was the audio engineer. Beth Donovan is our senior vice president of podcasting strategy. I'm Emily Kwong. Thank you for listening to Shortwave, the science podcast from NPR.