Should I Delete That? - A sober-curious Christmas - with Millie Gooch

Episode Date: December 2, 2024

Silly season is upon us - and a lot of us associate Christmas with drinking. But it doesn’t necessarily have to be that way. Today - we’re speaking to Millie Gooch, the founder of Sober Girl Society - the largest community for sober and sober curious women on the planet. Millie tells us the story of how and why she stopped drinking and gives us some practical advice on how we can navigate Christmas if we’re trying to stay sober, become sober or even just explore more sober experiences. Find out more about The Sober Girl Society’s events and workshops here: https://sobergirlsociety.com/Millie's new book, Booze Less, provides a mindful guide to sobriety and personal growth, designed to help readers rethink their relationship with alcohol while practicing self-compassion. Millie would love to share insights from Booze Less with your audience, discussing practical ways to approach sobriety and mindfulness, and offering her perspective on wellness trends and the cultural shift around drinking habits. You can buy your copy here!Follow @milliegooch on InstagramFollow @sobergirlsociety on InstagramEmail us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That? is produced by Faye Lawrence Music by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And it's so mad because when I was drinking every weekend was just like being absolutely blackout, not remembering my night and then spending the rest of the weekend with the curtains, clothes, like crying. Like, how is that fun? Hi, everyone, and welcome back to Should I Delete That? I'm M. Clarkson. And if you listen to Thursday's episode, you might understand why I'm on my own again right now. Alex has lost her voice

catastrophically. I have never heard or not heard. The silence has never been nowadays. It's the weirdest thing. And so I'm alone. Turns out a really important instrument in the world of podcasting. Rather fittingly, when it comes to doing GBA alone, I probably find it the most awkward activity available. Like I can't think of anything worse than just sitting in an empty room talking about how awkward my life is. So I'm going to wait

until Al's back for that. We'll have a big old debrief when her voice returns. Until then, I'm going to leave you with our guest today. This was a conversation that we've had in various forms over the last few years, but I think probably coming at it at the wrong time and from the wrong angle. We've done episodes about not drinking, cutting back on your drinking, exploring sobriety before, but we always do them in January. And it occurred to us that actually that's not entirely helpful because nobody drinks in January. And that's sort of a big part of the conversation anyway. Much harder is trying to stay sober or become sober or explore more sort of sober experiences at a time when drinking is the

absolute forefront of everything. We are coming into silly season. And if you are prone to anxiety, if you don't like drinking that much, it can be really difficult to navigate social situation. So we have decided to speak to Millie Goode. She is the founder of the Sober Girls Society, which is the largest community for sober and sober curious women on the planet. They've got workshops, courses and fun events. And she has a new book out. So hopefully you can take something practical from this. It was a conversation that really opened our eyes to kind of the culture of drinking in Britain and sort of how deranged it is. Anyway, obviously I myself will be having a sober Christmas for various reasons this year. But I heard,

hope for anybody else who is looking to perhaps explore sobriety a little bit more that this episode is helpful. Without further ado, here is our conversation with Millie. Hello. Hi. Thank you so much for coming up. And congratulations. Thank you. Your book has come out as we're recording today in the US. And we were thinking about this episode. We very often talk about doing like dry jan sober episode like sober focused episodes in january which we've realized it's kind of stupid because it's very easy not to drink in january for the vast majority of people because nobody's really drinking in january and dry january is quite a cultural thing if you are looking to cut down your drinking if you are exploring your relationship with

drinking you're looking to be more mindful with it christmas is the hardest time so we've decided to do the episode a little bit earlier. Is that why you've brought your book out now? Yes. There was actually thought behind that because the last one came out in January and I do think there's such a like missed opportunity because Christmas is literally the boozyest time of year, I think. And like especially you're doing a lot of like socialising in places that you might not

necessarily be socialising. So like work things. You might go like the whole working year without socialising with these people and then you're going to the Christmas party. So you have like new conversations that you have to navigate. So yeah, that was. why really because I found it like definitely one of the toughest periods still do I think yeah for sure it's I I I have I mean I'm obviously been pregnant a lot and breastfeeding

so I can't drink loads but I have explored so much of my own relationship with alcohol and I find my biggest problem always is anxiety like that when you wake up in the morning and you're just like I mean I have it anyway I don't have it I think I just have anxiety is when I wake up in the morning and I'm like oh no everything I said yesterday it was awful it's just called anxiety yeah I didn't need to put the hut in front of it. And the girl. But yeah, it's like, it's a really common thing, particularly after. Like you say, if you're drinking out of places that you don't normally go,

it's kind of one thing to, like, say some embarrassing stuff to your friends, but to your boss and your boss's wife and, like, your boss's kids. It's like, oh, God, why am I still talking? Christmas can be really difficult. So I guess we'd love to talk to you about, like, some sort of tangible, practical stuff for people who are looking to drink less at Christmas. But before we do that, it would be lovely to hear your story and how you ended up in this field.

Yeah, it's, I mean, it's such a long-winded story, but I will condense it as much as possible. So I mainly started drinking when I went to uni. Like, I wasn't really a big drinker before. A lot of my friends did, like, 14 drunk at a park. I sort of only really started when I went to uni. And when I went to uni, I became like basically a three, four night a week, like blackout binge drinker, basically got a job in a vodka revolution.

which, you know, not conducive to trying to moderate your drinking. And I just sort of was always the last on the dance floor. I never wanted the party to end. And when it got to like third year, everyone else's drinking kind of like slowed down and mine started like ramping up. And at the same time, I kind of really started struggling with my mental health. So anxiety, particularly anxiety and depression. And I used drinking as a way to kind of like cope with those things.

So if I was feeling anxious, I would have a few drinks. I would like, great. and good to go. And then you get in this cycle of like the next day feeling awful, like the hangover anxiety just being so awful. And then I would drink to feel better. And it was just in this like complete cycle. And then when I left junior, I went to work in PR and then I went to work in journalism, which are both quite booze heavy industries. But I say this for everyone I speak to now, they're like, my industry is a booze heavy industry. Like I don't know any industry, even like teachers, doctors, everyone says their industry is booze heavy. So I was in those and I was doing,

you know, stupid things, classic Christmas work parties, saying things to my manager and the next day being like, oh God, like it wasn't appropriate to ask for a pay rise like at the Christmas party. And then like ending up, falling asleep on the train home, I was commuting from like London to Ken and just was in this constant cycle, but like didn't know how to escape it. And no one else really kind of saw it as a really bad problem because I was just like in my 20s, I was young, I was having fun.

I was like ultimate party girl. But it was absolutely like permeating every part of my life. in like a really negative way where that was like relationships, finances, job, everything, like. And so I got to 26. I went on a night out with my friends. I don't remember any of it. Just had like the worst blackout, woke up the next day. And my friend said, like, just some really minor embarrassing stuff that I'd done. It wasn't even like the worst hangover. And I was like, I actually just don't want to live like this anymore. Like I am so miserable and I'm just going out drinking all the time to kind of forget how miserable I am. And so I decided that I was going

stop drinking, told all my friends they thought it was hilarious. And then seven years later, I still haven't drunk. So the joke is on then. Wow. Okay. So do you feel like that was like a rock bottom for you? It's interesting because I don't think it was. I think I'd had so many more other times that were worse. And it's almost like, you know, on a hangover when you feel so shit, you cannot face the world. You cannot even begin to like tackle your problems. You're like, I just want to close the curtain soon, pretend I don't exist. Whereas on like that one, I was kind of like semi okay. I was just like, it was almost like I was just tired of my own shit at that point.

So weirdly having a bit more clarity allowed me to make that decision because otherwise I just wouldn't want to deal with it. And then I would just like prepare for the next time that I could drink again to like get in that cycle. So yeah, weirdly I don't think it was rock bottom. I've had like many more embarrassing or shameful or stupid things that I've done like over the years of drinking. It was like a collection of rock bottoms that brought you to that place.

Yeah, I always say they were like, maybe like middle. But it is hard because I hate, like comparing it to other people's drinking because if it's a problem for you, it's a problem for you. Like I still had a stable job. Like I, so it's really hard because I wouldn't say it was like rock bottom compared to someone else's. But for me it was like rock bottom, like especially some of the like dangerous situations I put myself in where I break up and be like, how the fuck did I get here?

Like that sort of thing. So yeah, definitely a collection of middle to rock. bottom i would say skimming skimming the bottom skimming along rock middles the friends that you had had you because you'd kind of been on this past since you were 18

had you sort of like cultivated party friends or were these your sort of real friend friend sober friend I think a lot of people who end up in an environment or in a relationship

with alcohol that they don't necessarily want it's it's often that they find people that will enable that for them and they find themselves in circles that perpetuate it because it's safe and it's easy and it's inevitable. Was that the case for you? Had you kind of built your life and your friendships around that your love of partying or were you kind of the anomaly within your friend group in that you liked to party more than they did? Yeah, it's interesting because I thought everyone liked to party as much as I did. And then when I got sober, I realized that they didn't and like that they didn't drink to the level that I did. But I was always just so drunk.

So I just never really noticed it. I thought everyone was like on my level and it turned out that they weren't. But I think like I met a lot of those friends at uni. We kind of bonded over like drinking, but we also lived together. So we also had like that kind of friendship as well. So they were a mix. And I think some of my friends like partied at different stages in their life. Like one would just break up with their boyfriend.

Then I would go and bend us with them for six months. Like it was different people at different stages. But they were all still like solid friends as well. But a lot of people like you say do just have friends that they just party with. but mine were sort of like a mixture of people that I party with, but there were actual like proper friends as well. Well, you're quite a useful friend to those people then for that because it's like you're the one that they know is always going to be up for a good time.

Yeah, always like the first person like would be like with their boyfriend solidly for like a year and then all of a sudden would come out to the world and I would be the first person and they were cool because they knew that I would just be up for a good time. Can I ask about pissing them off? Yeah. I think that's a really interesting. thing. You said you didn't really notice that you were the one that was more drunk. Yeah. And I'm sure anybody listening will have people in their lives like that, people that we know

they're just a terrible drunk or they're a night, their reliability. Like there are people I went to school with who are like, I haven't seen in 10 years, but I can still remember like, oh God, they were a nightmare to go out with because we'd always lose them and I'd be chasing them around and whatever. How did that affect? Was that? that a big part of your anxiety, the kind of the fear, like, was it a fear that you were pissing them off or were you actually pissing them off? Or was it both things that was making the anxiety worse? Was it a combination of both things? I think it was a combination of both things. I think there were very clear times when I did piss them off. Like, one time it was my birthday

and everyone wanted to go home at like 2am, which is a really respectable hour, but I never wanted the party to end. So I called them all like, see next Tuesdays, told them I hated them. And like, I love my friends more than anything. So, like, the next day I had, like, a lot of, like, grovelling opportunities to wake. So there were times when I'd, like, I had actually pissed them off. And, like, you said, I would go missing. Like, one time I just left, didn't tell anyone.

And, like, they had to ring my mum in the end. Like, she's missing. And she was like, no, she's upstairs, like, a sleep in bed. Like, so it was that. But then there were times as well when I hadn't pissed them off. But my brain just automatically thought, yeah, you've probably pissed them off because that's what you do a lot of the time. So I would wake up and then I'd try and call one of my friends.

They wouldn't answer. and then I would like spiral and be like, oh my God, they hate me. And when I finally got hold of them, they'd be like, no, you were fine. Like, yeah, you were drunk, but you were all right. So, but I still wouldn't take that as like gospel. I'd be like, no, no, no, like something must have happened. You're being weird. Like, so it was a mixture of everything, to be honest, I think.

After that moment, did you go completely cold turkey then with alcohol? Yeah, yeah. That must have been really hard. And it must have exposed you in a way to all of the things that alcohol was covering up. and you know all the things that you were using alcohol as a tool to cope with and suddenly you don't have that coping mechanism anymore that must have been incredibly difficult yeah so they have this I have this phrase called pink cloud which is something like when you first get sober so like the first kind of few months are like pure elation because you're not

feeling like shit you're not going out every weekend like ruining your life you're not having to like make excuses and all that sort of thing but then all of a sudden you have this like dip where the cloud like burst and that's kind of what happened to me so like the first few months. I was like, love this, going to be sober forever. It's great. Like, hangover free and all that. And then a few months later, I literally basically had like a mental breakdown because for my entire life, I just dealt with any kind of emotions by just going out and getting shit-faced. And all of a sudden, I, like, didn't know how to deal with things. And I started getting like really bad panic attacks and like really bad anxiety. So I went to therapy for

like the first time in my life and did like CBT, hypnotherapy. And it wasn't necessarily for the drinking it was for all the stuff that I was like covering up by drinking and all the stuff that I just like never ever dealt with so yeah it was hard but the first few months you're like this is fucking amazing and then all of a sudden you're like oh and you gave up drinking without support you did did you go into AA at any point or was that a consideration it was a consideration but I it's weird because now I know so many people that have been through AA I have friends that have been through the program swear by the program but what I I did not know a single other sober person when I stopped drinking like seven years ago and I was like AA is for like men in

their 60s who you know have lost their wife and their job like if I go in there and say listen I can go a few days out drinking but when I do drink like I go hard they'll just like laugh me out be like you know come back when you got a real drinking problem and now I know that that is not true and probably could have really done with that support in the beginning and like I'm glad that a lot of people are talking about, like, the misconceptions about who goes to AA and what people that go to AA look like. But at the time, I just thought that that was not going to be the place for me. That's really interesting what you say about the preconception you had of an alcoholic. And I think it was something we talked about. We did an episode with Gamble

Aware last year, two years ago now, and it was about women gambling. And again, there was this huge misconception that that addiction overwhelmingly is something that affects men and older men and that it's like you're going to go into this room and it's going to smell of like damp tobacco and like people will have holes in their socks and like there's this very specific vision that we have and it and the idea as well with alcoholism is that we think that it's someone drinking every single day that they can't get out of bed until they've had a drink when in reality that's not that an alcoholic is somebody that has a problematic relationship with alcohol and you can be an alcoholic and go three or four you

can be a functioning alcoholic there are lots of ways of being an alcoholic yeah sounds like a big an alcoholic so like interesting you're an alcohol you can be one if you want there is kind of a push now to and this is not to say like to take away the label alcoholic but in like medical literature they want to kind of use more alcohol use disorder because it's it makes it clearer that alcohol use exists more on a spectrum because the word alcoholic what it can do is make it very like well you know you can keep drinking because you're not an alcoholic so that's fine and like you say we have this very stereotypical idea and it it kind of like dilutes the fact that anyone can suffer with drinking people think oh no I'll be fine because I'm not an alcoholic and also it can stop people

like going to seek support or help because they feel like they don't identify with that label so there is a push now to kind of like also go for more person-centered language rather than like you're an alcoholic, that's all you are. Same with kind of addict. It's like person with addiction or person with alcohol use disorder because that kind of can start opening it up so that people feel more like they can get support for this kind of like weird spectrum of drinking that doesn't just look like drinking in the morning on a park bench. This is a personal question but is addict a term or the personalised version of addict? Would that be a term that you would identify with? I don't, but it's like, I think, again, because addiction is so on a

spectrum, it is so hard for me to, like, kind of say, oh, for sure, this is what it is, because there were points when I drunk, I could not stop drinking. I would just drink solidly and no amount of reasoning would have stopped me, but then I could go a few days. So it's, again, that thing of, like, it looks on a spectrum. So I don't label it as anything other than, like, I'm sober. I don't drink. And, like, that's it. But, you know, there's the difference. Someone can be, like, alcohol dependent. So their body is physically dependent on alcohol.

So for someone who is physically dependent, they can't just stop drinking that day because their body could go into withdrawals. They have to be, like, medically detoxed. But that's the only kind of, like, medically quantifiable thing is, like, someone who is dependent on alcohol physically. I'm really interested in the kind of rise in, like, I guess it's, like, sober curiosity, like, sober curious people.

people, there's a lot of people online now talking about being sober. And I think it's really interesting, like watching, I don't know, people who don't necessarily consider themselves alcoholics or alcohol dependent, but who have just decided that their mental health, which is a very reasonable thing to do. Like, binge drinking is not a hell. Like, we take it as like, oh yeah, yeah, that's something I do on Saturdays. But like, it's not actually that normal. It's not actually very good for you. So it's kind of fair enough that people want to stop. But it's, do you feel like there's a big distinction between people who are identifying kind of more as like sober and people who are doing sort of program-led addiction treatment? Yeah, it's so hard because like I think these days some people swear by the program, some people get nothing from the program.

And it's great now that there are different options. And I think it's about like knowing yourself and what works for you. And I think that that area of like people who go to AA and people who stop drinking for their mental health, there's actually a whole spectrum in between. Like, there are definitely, when I hear people who go to AI and they talk to me about my story, like, their story, I'm like, that was my story. And then I hear people who have just stopped for their mental health. And I'm like, that was also my story. Like, there's such this, like, gray area in between that it shouldn't be this, like, binary.

So, like, all our meetups are inclusive of people who are, like, sober curious. Because some people's sober curious as well looks different. Some people might just, like, really be interesting cutting down. And some people might be sober curious because they're really, really struggling. so therefore they're curious about sobriety. So the whole thing is just like completely merge and interlinked. And I don't like this idea of separation. Some people might go to a meeting but also go to therapy but also have a sober community

and also drink alcohol-free drinks. I think it's really people knowing their own brain, knowing what works for them, taking a little bit of what works. Some people go to A& and say, I love the community aspect, but I actually don't want to do the steps. Fine, if that works for you, great. people are fearful of going sober or at least experimenting with going sober because of you know the idea of you're not as fun when you don't drink or you're going to you're not

going to be included in the friendship so i think that idea that everyone can have can like be involved i mean and we're referring to your um what you founded as what is uh called the sober girl society which is really cool and you do some amazing events and meetups and i just think that's really it's great that it's so open to everyone. Can I ask within that if I think the thing that again, maybe this is a language thing and a confusion thing that we have around getting sober or being sober. So sober does sound lifelong. Yeah. So do you find with your members or do you find when you talk about sobriety or when you talk to people about sobriety, the expectation is that they will be sober, this is it now. Like I've closed that and I'm never going to drink again and I'm

going to be sober and this is my new sober life or is it like I'm just going to come to a couple of parties and not drink but then I'm going to go to a couple more and then I'll drink at that one. Yeah, some it is like the reason people come to meetups is such a spectrum. You will get people who have never drunk people who maybe don't drink because they had a loved one who was alcohol dependent. Maybe they just want like their friends are really party heavy and they want to find girls that don't want to do things as much. So it's a complete spectrum. So there's no like oh you have to be sober for this amount of time or and some people do just come and say like I'm doing a year sober I want to see how it goes and maybe I'll carry it on and maybe I won't

but like everyone that's there is also really respectful of like say there is someone like you said that is there maybe they're trying to not drink for a bit but next week they might go out and drink but the eye the focus is on it being non-alcoholic and having fun with that alcohol and they're really respectful of everyone else's decisions we do a bit of you know a sort of caveat at the beginning, like, you know, people are all different stages. So we just kind of respect that pathway for everyone. So, yeah, it's just a mix. Like, honestly, you get some people who, because we're not a program, that we're just a community that does fun stuff, like, without drinking. So you get people who come in that have been to rehab, go through the program, still work with A.A. or CA or whatever

it might be. So you have a whole, a whole mixture of people right from this end to this end. And it's such a cool community, because especially in the UK, I think it's safe to, to say that alcohol is, like, woven into the very fabric of our society. It's really, we're really entrenched in, like, alcohol culture. Why do you think that binge drinking, especially in the UK, is, has become, or is so normalised? And why we don't see it as something problematic? And it does feel UK-specific, doesn't it? It's almost become a badge of honour.

It was like, that's our thing, I think, of like, you know, British. Brits abroad, boozy, but it's broad. We've really owned it. And I think I had this conversation with someone that actually, sometimes I'm made to feel like I'm not patriotic because I don't binge drink. Like people have sort of like, oh, come on. Especially when the football's on, I think that's when I find it. Like, oh, you've got to have a beer, England to play.

And I'm like, except I don't. So that's fine. But it's, I think the culture, especially here, when you look back really started, like 90s, especially for women, there was this, like, amazing progressive movement for the, like, Ladec culture of, like, you know, we can do exactly what. the men can do and like we can do it better and for so many things that really like propelled us forward but in terms of drinking we then started to like really really step up our drinking and a lot

of alcohol companies saw that this was happening as well and that's when they sort of like bought things that they thought would appeal to us like skinny wine and alka pops and all that sort of thing and then it kind of just carried on you know like early naughtys all of that like kate moss going out getting mossed all that kind of culture then it went on to like jordy shaw which was like basically my uni heyday was like going out getting mortal it's just been sort of like bred into us like through our culture I think but I think it's I mean it's always been there like especially like English sport and football and everything like that it's always kind of just being there yeah even like Wimbledon I'm like pimps yeah it's like it's literally

any excuse to drink something that I'm finding quite new that that I hadn't really known before because obviously I hadn't had kids before but since becoming a mum is how much like wine mums or a, like that's such a, like a truth. I mean, I've found myself really like, I really want to work out within myself and it's something that I need to, I mean, like,

I got pregnant again quite quickly so I didn't have too long to work out, but you want to work out when you're a mum. Yeah. Like, do I want my kid to see me drunk? No. Yeah. Do I want to lose my inhibitions

around her no and then you think well what's the point but then the you know i'll just i won't drink because it doesn't make sense but then the the noise yeah it's so pervasive it's like oh at end of a long day like all the memes like that there's the lady running on the treadmill with like the wine at the end and it's like and it's all memes and like you know mommy needs a drink yeah yeah but that came from a similar like good place in terms like Lodette culture because basically there was a point when all of a sudden like first of all, mummy bloggers started coming out and everything was perfect and it was like colour-coordinated lunches and things like that. So then they become this like rise of

sort of like mummy bloggers and influencers who then started saying, listen, we're not all like perfect and it has now become like a parody of itself and then of course like companies jump on so everything is like you know mummy's juice and in like prosceco glasses and it's escalated to now quite a dangerous level and it's so hard because it came as like a reaction to you know like we don't want to be perfect like it is motherhood is hard let's talk about how hard it is and it's now kind of like snowballed so that's the the dangerous part of mummy wine culture but you hear it like all my friends like yeah everyone drinks on their play dates I'm like I've got I've got every soft play in London has beer yeah in the cooler thing like you go it's like

apple juice pironi yeah and it's a good thing I'm always like oh yeah again I'm not like a master drinker but again I'm like oh yeah fun this place has got a license I'll do a birthday party it actually is nuts yeah like I think if you did that in another culture there'd be like yeah what are you doing what why do you need peroni at a two-year-old's birthday party yeah you don't you say no you don't and we are saying all of this but I'm like I want a pirani that's a wine at a soft play sounds fabulous but that's like that's why People always think, oh, is she going to come on and be like, do I ever drink? Like, if you have a good relationship with alcohol, you are happy with your relationship

with alcohol, it's not causing any problems, crack on. Like, I'm not here to be like, stop drinking everyone. Like, it's just about not plowing through when you know it's... I've got some questions then on that. Yeah, on what a good relationship with alcohol does it like? Because I would say I have a good relationship with alcohol in that I don't really drink that much and that's about it. I don't drink that much.

I don't think about it that much. I don't get, I very, very rarely get drunk. But when I do, and after I've drunk, I wake up with a anxiety. Yeah. Can I still claim that that's a good relationship with alcohol? It's hard. And maybe if you're asking the question, like, maybe you think about it. But alcohol is going to chemically, like, affect you.

So if it is causing you anxiety, that is causing you a problem. So, like, it is taking away from, like, I always kind of weigh. up of are you getting more from it or are you like losing more from it just do it in like a simple scale like but i we're still getting stuff from alcohol we're still like loosening me up giving me confidence like all of those stuff but the like what it was taking away from me was just far outweighing it so i think that's like if if you're happy enough having like a bit of anxiety in the next morning and then crack on it what's a bit of anxiety is it's fine it's funny there isn't it like we know the science we we know that alcohol exactly

the symptoms of depression and anxiety. And inevitably, the day after drinking, I will feel shit. But, and every time I'm like, then I won't drink again. And also inevitably, I get swept up in the social aspect of, you know, all my family's together, all my friends are together, and we're all having glasses of wine. And it's like, I'm like, oh, yeah, exciting. Like I'm going to, and I do it anyway. And it's funny, isn't it?

And I don't seem to, maybe it's not that I don't learn. It's just that I do weigh up. Yeah. Whether I can take it, or I just prioritise my present self and I don't look after my future self, possibly. But I mean, there's a scientific idea of like a healthier relationship with alcohol, which is, so the chief medical officer advises no more than 14 units in a week and you should spread those over a few days. Is that like one glass would be one unit? No, so one, it depends on what the dream. drink is as well and this is what I think they should banish units because I don't think it's helpful for

anyone I think it should be a whole new measure yeah I think that's yeah I think a picture of glass or like a beer yeah if I knew what the drink driving is like like but you can't even go with a beer because beer is a different strength like you can have a beer that's like 5.6 or like a 4 point whatever like so you can't even go by that because and spirits are all different strengths so that's why they go on units but you're looking at like I don't know say a beer like two or three units one beer is two or two and what unit do you have to not be to drink so 14 is the most you should have in a week and you should spread them out so you shouldn't do all your 14 units in one day and you should have some drink free days for recovery so that be like seven drinks

yeah it depends what you're drinking though yeah I don't think I'd be able to do seven drinks in one day I think it would die I'm such a lightweight I can have like that's the that's the back-to-back babies that'll do that to you yeah no more than that in a week because they have this thing called the j curve so it's basically your harm like your risk of harm is like this and then after the 14 units it spikes up so that's where the 14 units is that like physical harm from alcohol or is it harm from situations that you'll put yourself in because of the alcohol that's just the physical harm from alcohol so this is where I think the whole thing just needs a restructure because it doesn't take into account like oh three or four drinks might actually like you say be

giving you hangover anxiety it's not that like you know five drinks in your text in your none of that harm is included so I don't know it's just the physical harm of alcohol but I think we are talking now more about the mental health effects which is certainly sort of like where my expertise lies because I talk more about yeah like the anxiety element hmm do you ever find that your work um people react in a hostile way yes to your world because I guess it's like putting a mirror up to their own relationship with alcohol their own usage Yeah. My favourite is at parties when someone's like got a drinking their hand. They're like, well, so what do you do for work? Can I tell them?

Oh, God. I think it's hard as well because I meet a lot of new people. And I think when I meet them, they immediately have this idea of me that I'm going to be like really judgmental that they're drinking, like probably really fucking boring and like or just think that I'm better than everyone else. It's not like all my friends drink, all my family drink. I'm so used to being around it. It's not like that at all. And I think once people get to know me, it's fine. But I do think they have that initial.

like and once they hear my story I think first of all they just think oh god she just like doesn't drink for health reasons and she's really like above it all and you know it's not that at all it was because every time I used to get pissed they used to absolutely ruin my life so once people start knowing that it's fine but yeah the thing is

the thing is I guess like even if it was just for health reasons you know and even it's valid any reason is valid right but yeah it's a shame that I suspected that was going to be your answer that people can react in a not so pleasant way because it's yeah it is it is a mirror isn't it to what you know it makes us think about our own usage yeah it's also so telling that people think that you think that you're

better than them yeah yeah it's like well what do you think you're doing then like you must not think very highly of what you're doing if you think by not doing it you're better yeah that's really I've never even thought of that yeah but it is like I did a campaign with alcohol change a charity that I'm an ambassador for and it's called Stop Sober Shaming Campaign and it actually really made me reflect upon my own sober shaming and looking back to it

I was always the person who was like oh you're not drinking how boring like come on drink quicker like always wanting to get the next round in and I would actively say like I don't trust people who don't drink which when you think about it's the most absurd thing ever like I'm so trustworthy now

I was so untrustworthy when I was drunk I literally used to lose everything like just unbearable but like it really made me reflect and when I thought about it I was like do you know what I used to say those things because I was like worried that you know my drink it wasn't normal so I wanted everyone to like be on my level I didn't want people to like see how drunk I was and like and also I hated that they could take it or leave it and I couldn't and how that made me like feel about myself so I think that was a really interesting one because now when people like sober shamey I just think about like oh yeah that would have been me and I know exactly what

I was doing that. And I know that's not the case for everyone, but a lot of the time, like you say, is a mirror to people's own relationship. Maybe some of us are those people that encourage everyone around us to drink. We want everyone around us to drink and keep up to the amount that we're drinking and we get kind of, get a bit like, oh, you're so boring. If they don't, why is that? Yeah, I think, like you say, it's largely a lot of people's own reflection. But I think sometimes it is just a societal, needy-ach reaction. Like, I'll say to people, oh like oh no thanks don't drink they're like how boring and then i'll like get into it with them and then they're like oh yeah that's actually really interesting i've been thinking about cutting down

my own drinking so what like what is going on sometimes it's just people's like gut reaction because it's like so bred into us like especially like going back to the whole british thing i don't think people even really think about it that much and some people it's such an alien concept that you don't drink but actually when you talk to them about it they're like oh that's actually quite interesting so i think yeah sometimes it's just like pure knee-jerk reaction. Yeah. We just think alcohol is synonymous with fun. Yeah. We cannot think that like, and it's so mad because when I was drinking every weekend was just like being absolutely blackout, not remembering my night and then spending the rest of the weekend with the curtains closed,

like crying. Like how is that fun? Opposite of fun. Yeah. And I know it's fun for some people, but it stopped being fun for me like a long time ago and like my life is so much more fun now, but trying to get people to understand that can be like so difficult sometimes. Thinking about it in the context of when people are listening to this, which is coming up to Christmas, again, when you think of like drinking being synonymous with fun, you think of it being all like jolly and you think like, oh, shat, like, what's the one with the orange shoes, butt fizz, mold wine, like there are so many Christmas, and it's all drinking. It's all, there's, all of it is drinking. How, if someone is listening to this thinking,

I don't know what my relationship with alcohol looks like, I don't know if it's good, don't know if it's bad, but I know that I have, that I am going to struggle mentally with the mornings, with the anxiety, with whatever it is. What's your advice to them? Right. I would say, first one is going to, on the drinks thing, we are in such a good time of alcohol-free drinks. Like, when I start drinking, it was actually Beck's Boo or nothing. Now there is, like, alcohol-free box fees, alcohol-free mold wine, alcohol-free Bailey, not the actual brand Baileys, but there is a brand that does like an alternative, like anything you want you can get. So I would say like start now like stocking up, trying some, finding ones that you love, because like having a really good

alcohol drink, I know to some people it's like really trivial, but it can make all the difference to some people. So do that. I think put it out there with your friends and family, even if it's just like, I'm thinking about like cutting down this Christmas or not going as hard. I think A, you'll be surprised how many people will actually be like, oh gosh, yeah, I'm thinking about it too. I think sometimes it's like one domino has to fall and then everyone else, like, once it's out there. So I think put it out there and also, if people react negatively, it, like, gives them time to get used to it. So by the time you are getting to these Christmas activities, hopefully they're, like, questions and the, oh, how boring

will have kind of, like, subsided because they'll have, like, gotten over it. Put it out there early. Also, like, someone might say, yeah, I want to do it too. So you've got, like, an accountability partner. And I would think about how your Christmas could look if you weren't drinking and what other fun things that you could do, like what other things did you love doing when you're a kid at Christmas time? Like, do you want to go ice skating this year? Do you want to go and do a tour of the local Christmas lights? Like, have to think about other things that you can do. I think they're like three initial like things that I would do. And really think about your reasons why, like you, if it's anxiety for you, like, think about

how your Christmas could look different if you didn't have that. Like, would you just be more present? Would you enjoy it more? Would you like be happier, essentially? I remember a year I stopped drinking for and then it was like New Year's Day I organised a run like 9 a.m. Yeah, well I'm not going to want a fucking hangover if I've got to like... Organise things in the next day that mean a lot to you

like meet in a friend for breakfast or go into a class. Even if that meaning a lot to you is like not having to pay the cancellation fee of like a gym class or whatever. Like work it because that would keep me accountable. So I think things like that.

Yeah. Because you do not eat your money back anymore. No, they are stirred. No, they are stirred. Yeah. It's like, yeah. It's like $35, God. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, you've got to have a real word with yourself in the morning. Yeah. I feel like often when we are addressing our relationship with alcohol, the narrative is that abstinence is the only way to go. And so I like the idea that you're, you know, you explore or you allow people within the community to explore like sober curious and just cutting down because that's important as well, right? And I think for a lot of us, and I speak for myself here, the idea of being completely abstinent for alcohol forever, that I don't,

That feels overwhelming. Yeah. And it is for a lot of people. And I think my first few years, like, I did have quite a heavy absence focus. But my dad had a stroke about three years ago now. And he is someone that will never go completely sober. But they said, you know, like part of the reason why he might have had the stroke was heavy drinking. So trying to encourage him to, like, cut down and get him interested in, like, alcohol-free beers and things like that is really kind of, like, broaden my horizons of harm reduction as well.

well of like actually so many people can really benefit from just reducing their alcohol but they don't need to stop he's he's never going to stop he's like 67 he doesn't want to I'm not going to try and you know a crowbar what is that what is the saying shoehorn comes to mind by the yeah no I don't think it was shoehorn like crowbaring is very different what's he done he's going to say he'll shoot his elbow he yeah won't give it up so and like I think there are so many people that would just benefit from like drinking less rather than like cutting out altogether it can be overwhelming

and what we find is always some people will come in because they feel really like welcomed and that they will be sober curious and then actually they might decide they want to like do abstinence and that's fine and some of them decide that they don't and that's also fine

like it's a I'm a big harm reductionist as the term I use it's not like you know Millie's T-total cult that I'm trying to get everyone to join and with that in mind you can I suppose just get into the habit

like someone listening could get into the habit do you think maybe maybe not of just having one or two glasses if they're if they have a relationship that isn't like catastrophic with alcohol do you think you can get to a point where you you you find yourself and binge drinking cycles and you maybe could put practices in place to be able to just have one or two or do you think with that in mind it's probably easier just to go like nothing for a bit and then we can reassess yeah it's it's so hard there's something like different theories on it as well so like there's one cycle who says that people are either natural moderators or natural abstainers. So for people who are

natural abstainers, it's easier for them to be like, no, I'm fine, thank you, rather than like open the door, because I see it with everything. Like, I can't just watch one episode of selling sunsetsets. I'm watching all eight that evening. It's easier for me to be like, no, I'm like not doing it, not opening the door. And then some people, once they have that one or two, they're satisfied. That's, that's it for them. And they can happily go the rest of their like life without, you anymore. So I think that's an interesting theory of like what category you might fall into and knowing that. I think moderation is hard in terms of like actually how alcohol affects your brain. So it affects your prefrontal cortex which, you know, like ways that right or wrong,

rational decision making. So even if you say, I'm literally only going to have three drinks today, three drink you is not like zero drink you. So you all of a sudden that three drinks go or most a fourth, like, oh, I'll have a fifth, I'll have a sick. So sometimes it is really hard, which is why sometimes, like, actually just not drinking for that occasion might be easier and then drinking when you're in an environment, like a dinner that you know that you're going to stop it too because you're at dinner and you're not going out afterwards. So I think that depends. But I think some people can, like, I know someone who stopped drinking for seven years and then went back and now just has a really healthy relationship with alcohol.

I've known people who have gone back after seven years and gone binge drinking, called it a relapse and then have gone completely sober again. So it's a really hard on because everyone's so individual and all our brains work differently. Yeah, I think, I mean, I know this isn't really connected to eating disorders at all, but like this makes me think of eating disorders because I think in my darkest times of an eating disorder, I've been, I felt, and I'm sorry if it, like, upsets anyone, I don't mean it to, but I felt jealous of people who are, what do you call, alcohol use depend, what did you say? Alcohol use disorder, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, who have alcohol use disorder because I was like,

you get to abstain you can abstain completely yeah and I would love to do that with food but I can't I have to work to the food has to feature in my life can't exist without it yeah I have to cultivate somehow a healthy relationship with food whereas with alcohol you can completely abstain yeah um no I understand that completely because I've I've had the opposite where people have said oh not drinking is like feeding into like it's like the next diet culture and I'm like well it's not because alcohol is a drug and you need food to survive. So they're like two completely different things. So no, I totally understand.

Like it is hard. It's funny, isn't it? Because yeah, because I imagine, I imagine that is tricky for people who have a problematic relationship with alcohol, trying to get to a point of balance or moderation. Yeah. That must be so difficult. Yeah. And that's what I tried many a time when I was at uni, I did like Lent, like gave up alcohol

for Leng because I knew it was like becoming. sort of problem. I did like a, it used to be called dryathlon before it was like dry January. And I just, it was always mental gymnastics for me. I tried so hard to like fit this like square peg into a round hole. It just wasn't working for me. And I think it was when I accepted that I just couldn't make it work. And it was like too much mental gymnastics. That was actually quite freeing. Because some people have this idea that me never drinking and saying I'm never going to drink again is like really restrictive. But for me, I'm like, oh God, yeah, I haven't got to keep trying to make it work. Like this is great. It's like, that for me is freedom. But yeah,

it's so hard with like and you do find there is a real big link with people who struggle with alcohol use and people who struggle with eating disorders as well really yeah a lot of a lot of girls that come to us have like struggle with their eating before as well and a lot feeds into like you know one of the things that affects addiction is sort of like our impulse control and especially if you have something like ADHD like it can it can all kind of feed into that as well that's so interesting it's interesting if people are listening who are wanting to do a sober, curious Christmas, how can they be, can they be? Are they invited, what are you plans this Christmas with your community? Can they be involved? They're

or anyone can be involved. So we do a lot of virtual events. We've got a lot of virtual workshops. So we've got one on like how to cut out without missing out. We've got one about socialising sober at Christmas, which is good. So anyone can come to those. You just book on. And then we do have an in-person event in London on the fourth. So I don't know when this comes out. But we Is that Wednesday? Yeah. It will be two days before. Perfect.

So we've got like a little Christmas mixer which will be nice. So yeah, we like to show events at Christmas because it is half of people and people like do come and they're like, oh my God, I've got a break from like all the Christmas parties which is nice. So yeah. And anyone's welcome. We also have like so many like free resources and stuff. So like we've got a blog full of like hundreds of blogs written by like people in our community and podcast and endless things like that. So yeah, lots to check out. Amazing.

Thank you so much. We're going to put the links in the show notes. Thanks so much for coming on and for sharing your story. And yeah, that was a really cool, interesting conversation around a time where it's probably more important than ever. Thank you. Thanks, Wendy. Thank you for having me.

Thanks. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.