Should I Delete That? - Addiction: Opening Up the Conversation

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

This week, Em and Al are joined by Issy Hawkins. Issy came onto Em's radar after the recent passing of Matthew Perry, who famously struggled with addiction issues his whole life. Issy went into recovery at the age of 21 for alcohol addiction after her life tumbled down around her. Issy breaks stereotypes around addiction and alcoholism with her honesty and vulnerability every day online. You can check out her TikTok and Instagram @issyhawkins_ Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was drinking differently to my friends. I wasn't drinking in a way that was like, oh yeah, we're just having fun on a Friday night. I wanted to be drunk and I wanted to be drunk all the time because of the way it made me feel. Hello and welcome back to Should I Delete That? I'm Alex Light. And I'm in Clarkson. How are you at? I am good. Look how pretty my makeup looks. You haven't said anything. And I've done it really special, really special today. For me? I mean, not for this. I did it for shooting something. But isn't it nice? I've got like pinky gold on my eyes and everything. Anyway. You look really nice. I can't, I'm sorry, I can't make my makeup look any different. I have with eyeliner and without eyeliner and those are my two options. I know what you mean, because I see the girls on TikTok do it, and I'm like, it looks different every time, and I don't get it.

Like my sister, like, unbelievable. She does graphic eyeliner, doesn't she? And crazy different colours. I'm like, oh, I've gone to like a slightly different shade of gold today. And by slightly, I mean, very fucking slightly. Nexon over in the palette. Yeah, it's quite hard. It's quite a difficult.

I feel like blush is the way to do it. Yeah, see, like you do look beautiful, but you sort of just look beautiful in the way that you all. I'll take... I hear what you're saying. I hear what you're saying. There's only so much you can do. You know what I mean? I accept that. Um, how are you? Good. I'm fine. I'm busy. I'm thriving. I'm fine. Yeah? Yeah. Booked and busy. Booked and busy. You've made me sound slightly like an escort, but yes. Booked and busy. Stressed, blessed and well-dressed. I'll tell you what I am. I'm dressed, blessed, and terribly dressed.

I'm wearing the same shit outfit them all yesterday. I mean, so am I. I rarely change home life. W-F-H-life, isn't it? Yeah. I made Rice Krispy Cakes. I saw. I saw. I came out of nowhere. But how good a look? I had to stop watching your stories because I put if you puts a fake-of spoiler up, I'm out of here, I am out. Do you like rice, oh no, you can't, no, rice-crispy cakes, got butter.

No, but I want cake. I want, like, I want, like, a, oh, I want a cake. I want, like, a white chocolate cake. A proper cake. sponge. Oh, I'd love a sponge with jam and cream and icing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Not even a cookie. I won't settle for that. I want a cake. I want cake. Yeah. I want some cake. I know. I'm not so jealous.

I am jealous of Paul and Prue that they get to eat so. I feel jealous every time they go and try. Yeah, they get to eat a lot of cake. Yeah, so nice. That's my good. That I baked Rice Krispy Cakes. Good.

I am. Yes. I, my awkward is that I went myself. I'm so pleased. I'm so pleased you told them that. I went myself. I really did. I really did. But it's like, it was the first time, like, okay, sometimes, you know, when you're laughing really hard. Like, sometimes it might come out. Like, when you were a kid, you know, when you're in school, might have come out. I wasn't laughing. I wasn't doing anything of, I was. strenuous activity I stood up and P just dribbled out of me Oh god it drill It didn't even gosh No it dribbled out of me

Was it the whole wee or just a bit of the wee Why were I only asking you this now Because I've known about this for a while I've really took this in my stride didn't I When you were like I weed myself And I was like oh loo I didn't have no follow up No

This is a big deal I've actually pissed myself It was like it was a half Half a full wee But it was such a sad little dribble And I just couldn't stop it trying to be nice like I was trying to not care I was like oh that's okay no big deal I didn't want to be like oh I had a point in love at a heavily pregnant woman pissing herself I wanted to be cool

about it I was trying to be chill I was trying to make like an inclusive and warm space for you thanks thanks you did but I told I obviously ran today straight away and was like Dave I'm just piss myself anyway that day we had to go and he was you know he whatever I've done worse and that day we went to his, we went to our nephew's first birthday party on his side with his brother, his brother's girlfriend and his mom guess what Dave does when we arrive there

just get out the way for my pissy wife he told everyone that I pissed myself Of course he did, Al, of course he did, it's Dave When you told me just then guess what Dave did There was obviously Dave did it, obviously Why would he do that? I was actually upset at him I was like, do you think that was your information to share? Like, oh, ha ha, I'll piss herself today.

Like, that's not funny. I mean, it's quite funny. It's very funny. And it's his baby that caused it. So he's got stakes in the game. You know what I mean? Half a right over, no. It's mostly his fault, I would argue.

So would I. But also, Al, you've just told, you're telling thousands of people right now. Tens of thousands. I know, but it's different. And Dave No, but it's different. And Dave no. well that you're about to do that. He knew full well. It's like his mom, his brother. They don't need to know that I piss myself.

But they do it. But they do now. They do. Yeah. They do now. They do now. So I had an absolute fume at him on the way home. Um, that was my bad. No, your turn. I've got, I've barreled through mine. Um, yeah. Yeah. So I'm mostly good. Um, a classic awkward. So this has happened to us before where we, um, well, okay, so I approached today's guest. I really want to to speak to her. We really wanted to speak to her given, well, I've seen her story on TikTok and you'll hear from her in a minute and she's amazing. But when I was reaching out to her, I've reached out on Instagram and I did that thing where you go, so I sent my first

message and I was planning to send a few because I'm an annoying millennial. And I basically wrote my first one, being like, hi, Izzy, I hope you're so, so, so well, sent it. Obviously I was planning to send a follow-up being like, we would love to have you on our podcast. This is the stats. Blah, la-la-la-la-la-la-la. Here are some dates available. But she has a setting that more and more people are getting, which is whereby you can't send more than one message to a person unless they accept your invitation. So your first message,

and you don't know this until it's happened, your first message is the invitation. It's the only message. And there's nothing you can do about it. So I basically sent a total stranger message going, hi, you see, I think you're so, so, so well. And I thought, well, I'll never fucking hear from her because she thinks that I'm about to sell her 500,000 followers on Instagram

and give her like a good business plan and ask her to join my pyramid scheme. Anyway, she replied, thank God, but it was... How embarrassing. Horrible. I did it too the week before you learned from my mistake.

I did it too. I know. To another potential guest. And I think... Oh, it's just so gross. I think it's a default setting now for DMs, for Instagram DM. I think it's the default.

So never ever send it in multiple anymore. We've just got to go all in one. Yeah, you've just got to put your dick on the table immediately. Yeah. what I've learned from that. Slam it down. No foreplay.

Get it out there. Well, I love that. Embarrassing for you. Yeah, no, mortifying. And my good is that I'm fine and my bad is that I've got a massive spot on my forehead and that's just that.

Do you know what? If you fucking say a thing, if you say a thing, if you say a thing, I'm out, I'm done. You're going to say a thing, aren't you? I'm not, I'm not. You're going to say a thing. I'm just, I'm amused,

because we were together all of Monday, right? And your skin was like completely clear, like not a thing. And then I watched your story, the first thing, Tuesday morning. I was like, where did that come from? Fuck off. I was like, that was over, that was overnight, wasn't it? Jesus.

I feel very self-conscious. But I know. It's fine. It's on the way out. It's not, Alex. It's actually sore. It was throbbing. last. I think it's got a pulse. It's really

bad. I haven't ever thought like this for years. Squeezed it. It's not ready. It's not ready. It's not ready. It's the worst when it's not ready. I've been using a complete sticker plasters which has actually been great. Yeah? Yeah, I've been really rating those.

Okay. Nice. But it's right smack bang in the middle of my forehead and my forehead's fucking massive. A bit of concealer that would be completely gone. Al, I've got a bit of concealer on oh no I'm so sorry I am ending this

I want to go I'm sorry I feel like this is actually my awkward or maybe yours I don't know it feels it feels it feels joint I'm taking my

giant on the spot and I'm leaving but I'm leaving for I love you you're very beautiful fuck off but no we're going to get out the way now because we actually do have a really good episode now.

Izzy replied to my message, which was very generous of her, given the situation, and given my massively intense opening line, and she came to talk to us about her own experience of addiction, but particularly within the current climate and the current conversation around addiction. Obviously, really sadly, Matthew Perry died a few weeks ago and I've seen a lot online about alcoholism and drug addictions and I've seen a lot of Izzy's videos kind of having this conversation so I thought it would be really cool if she'd come in if she could come in and talk to us and she did and she was amazing wasn't she we had the best chat with her we love chatting to her she was absolutely brilliant here's Izzy enjoy hi Izzy hi hello thank you so much

last minute episode thank you for stepping through that's okay I'm so happy to be here it definitely felt like it was meant to happen I was looking at TikTok and I've actually seen a few of your videos pop up before and I really like what you're doing to like open up the conversation around addiction and like I think it's really valuable to hear from young women who I don't necessarily think who I'd imagine when I think of addicts but particularly in recent days I've seen the content that you've been making around the death of Matthew Perry and the work that he'd done in this like addiction space and to open up that conversation so we thought it would be quite a good time to like have this chat with you now and kind of talk about addiction your

experience how you feel like the general conversation is online and in real life and all of that so I'm really happy that you came but I guess the place to start would be with with you and with your story if that's okay yeah sure um it's hard to like condense it because it was like with something like addiction it obviously it's not it doesn't tend to be something it just happens to you overnight you like whoa I woke up and add it. today. It's like something that is progressive and it's a slow burner. But actually saying that with me, it took me down really quickly. And like addiction runs in my family, which I get a lot of questions that like, do you think you inherited it? Do you think it's an inherited gene? And

we don't know the answers to a lot of those things. But yeah, I'm the child of an alcoholic, who is also in recovery now. So had an understanding of what that was and actually hated alcohol because of that, because of my experience with it. And then as soon as I started, started having it, I knew that there was something about it that I was drinking differently to my friends. I wasn't drinking in a way that was like, oh yeah, we're just having fun on a Friday night. I wanted to be drunk and I wanted to be drunk all the time because of the way it made me feel to the point where I would like sneak alcohol from my parents' cupboard and like take it into my room and then drink it when no one was looking. And that was like the age of 1415.

Was some of that me learning that behavior? I don't know from an alcoholic parent or was that just a lot of addicts talk about having that kind of sneaky thing from a very young age. But we obviously have this like drinking culture in this country and an adolescent drinking culture in particular. So it's, I find it's really easy. I get a lot of people, young people in my DMs that are like, nobody kind of believes I have a problem. And because we expect young people to be out there. Drunk. Drunk. Yeah. And I'm one of four kids as well. And so like that is, It's a experience that we've, and they're all fine with alcohol and I'm not. Yeah, so I kind of went through that, went through school, loved going to festivals,

loved day drinking, just wanted everyone to be drunk with me all the time. And kind of before that, I would say my first addiction was actually, I've just always had this addictive personality, which started with starving myself, I think, in school. It was like my very first thing was like that I became fully obsessed with. And it's all of it's this kind of like inward abuse behavior. And then lots of other things. happening, parent got sober, parents got divorced, didn't deal with that very well, lots of other difficult experiences that I went through in my teens and I just had no coping

mechanisms that I, you don't learn in school how to deal with life, I think. And went off to work, didn't go to drama school, didn't get in, was like, well, I don't really what to do now. So went off to work in the advertising world at the age of 18 and it was just too much for me like constant drinking constant partying to the point where the anxiety got so much that I was like I'm going to have to drink during the day in order to get through presentations in order to get through work and so I started drinking in the mornings I started hiding alcohol from my partner I was hiding it in bushes I was hiding it in the toilets at work and you and it starts with something as simple as like I'm really anxious this morning I'm just going to have a little bit to take the edge off which seems

crazy talking about it, but as soon as you convince yourself that's okay, it just becomes reality. It's like, oh, this is normal. And there's a lot more people doing it than you would probably imagine. And just things got crazier and crazy. I got arrested by transport police at one point for being drunk and disorderly at Oxford Street Tube Station. I got, I got fired from work falling asleep in the toilet at 10 o'clock in the morning off my face. And it was just all these kind of like, there's war stories after war stories. By that point, your parent was so Uber. Yeah. So how was that, were you hiding how bad things had got from your family and from your partner at the time when you're getting fired from work and stuff and when you were being

arrested or was it hard to hide? It was really hard to hide like towards the end. I'd always been, and I have been my whole life, this masker, like, it found it really easy to be like, I will be whatever you need me to be and that's fine. So I hid, I was really good at hiding things and spinning spider webs of lies and, but it got to the point where it was like, it was really obvious I was sick and different people kept trying to intervene in different ways. So like the boyfriend wanted to help me through exercise and food. And he was like, we're going to do it through this way. And I was like, I don't think that's going to work.

But sure, let's give it a go. My parent who was in AA was like, you need AA. Well, that's all I have to say about the matter. And understood that. There's this whole thing with enabling, which I think people believe is like when you're giving people drugs or alcohol, you're like enabling them. But you can enable people by just being there and kind of, like when the addict's on that trajectory

and they're about to slam into the floor you go no it's okay I've got you and the attic goes like this right yeah and it's like okay I'm fine I'm fine I'm fine but that's obviously really difficult for family and friends to be like so what do I do just leave them there in trouble so it's easier said than done but it was actually when people started going we love you we're here for you but like we can't watch you do this yourself anymore

like you need you need to want to get help and we will be here to support you when you want the help But until then, like we're taking a bit of a step back. And that's, God, that's a difficult process for everybody involved. That would be so hard. Yeah. On both sides, so hard. So hard.

Especially for like parents. Yeah. Oh, God. And it was actually the day that the boyfriend walked out was the day that I decided I need to get help. Really? Yeah. At the age of 21, couldn't get to job interviews without being, I was drunk. I was like interviewing at the Guardian and places like this and I would turn up to the interviews drunk.

I went to work experience. I just couldn't stop and it was getting to the point where I was in quite a bit of danger and the boyfriend after five years was like yeah I can't do this anymore because it's so it's such a rough horrible place for a partner to be in when you're living with someone with addiction issues and I passed out on the sofa the day that he walked out because I was drunk during the day and he was like yeah I can't do this anymore and um the next day I was like oh yeah I need help and so I begged like everyone around me I was like if anyone couldn't sort of

because I couldn't afford to put myself through treatment and my parents couldn't really afford to put me through it's a really expensive process and part of my message is like why we need better accessibility for people in terms of treatment because there's just nothing out there really and I didn't want to treatment for four months and started all over again

wow is that that's the kind of the end of that story so yeah and then I'm like 21 and sober I just like, no, why? That's crazy, sorry. I saw one of the videos on your TikTok on your Instagram and it was somebody saying how could your boyfriend have left you and you were saying in it like, no, how could he have stayed?

Yeah. And I think that's a really interesting perspective because it's what you're saying about the enabling and I think people do have a very like philanthropic, idealistic view of how we would deal with somebody in our lives who's an alcoholic and we think, well, I'd stay and I'd fight for them.

them and I'd whatever but like you say if you can't if you're not going to help yourself there's nothing that they that that he could have done it's literally nothing and I've learned that now but having been around a lot of addicts is that you can be like please and as the child of an alcoholic as well you can be begging them to be like please for me can you stop and they're like yeah yeah no I want to and you can see in their eyes in that moment they want to stop but it's an illness it's something yeah it's something broken in the brain and there's brain scans and all sorts to sort of that speaks out and Matthew Perry did a lot of work like talking about that stuff but that it's not a simple it's not a matter of willpower it's not a matter of um and we've come a long way in

that conversation I think I think we understand a bit more but there's still more work to be done in terms of the stigma for sure definitely and I guess I imagine it's not always a matter of like hit rock bottom either like you can probably hit multiple rock bottom oh for sure and still not you know work your way out of it because it is an illness yeah and I remember the day I left treatment still like in a night like four months in and everyone's like yay she's like okay and I'm like okay guys but I might drink again yeah yeah yeah and everyone's going what um because I'm still clinging onto the idea that I might be able to drink normally at some point and I've seen and there are normal drinkers there are heavy drinkers there's all kinds of versions of grey with this but if you're an

addict I've seen people that have convinced themselves I can have a drink the girl I shed a room within treatment she's no longer here because she convinced herself of that there are so many people I was in treatment with who had a drink and went right back to where they were. It wasn't like, oh, like over a few years, I slowly got a bit sicker. It was like went right back to being ill. And then we're gone. We saw it with Amy Winehouse. It was the same sort of situation. So, yeah, it's a scary. It's a scary thing to have to live with. And at 21, you had, you went into recovery and you haven't, that was it. That was it. Yeah. Which is amazing. And not, always the case for a lot of people it isn't always a one one trip fix or whatever no um yeah so nine

years next year which is mad so you never did you ever drink again after that four months uh no i didn't so yeah my last drink was february 9th 2015 maybe i'm so bad with years but um i did have a thing later like in uh my first year of recovery with codeine like over-the-counter which is just what tells me like my brain is just like please give me something to numb out from this it's not about having fun with substances it's about something completely different for me so had a had a problem with that which I then kicked um but yeah otherwise I haven't had a drink since so I navigate my 20 sober yeah because that's common isn't it swapping one addiction for another I can't remember the name for it transfer addiction transfer addiction yeah that's really common

isn't it? Yeah. Because I do think there is, like, there is an addictive brain, isn't there? And it will always seek out that something.

Yeah, for sure. So I mean to like, in AA, they talk about it being this like whole within you that they tried to fill with a spiritual program

essentially, but that you're trying to just fill something up. Use externals to fix something internally. And it's like shopping, gambling. And I think we all do it to a certain extent.

I don't think it's just addicts that do that. We're like, you know, when you feel rubbish, you have a glass of wine or when you feel rubbish, you'd go spend a load of money or whatever it is. It's just that addicts take it to a completely ridiculous extent.

I was just going to ask, going back to, you said you, because you were the daughter of an alcoholic, you said that initially you hated alcohol. At what point did that change? What switched? And how old were you when that happened? I would say it's probably right for the minute that I first had it. Because it allowed me to,

because I was the child of an alcoholic, the eldest child of an alcoholic, it's very common for the eldest child to be super controlling, super like, I'm responsible for the family, I'm responsible for looking after everybody, I'm responsible for fixing, I'm the parent, essentially. And I was so weighed down by the world at the point that I hit sort of 14, 13, 14, 14. Like, there was just, just a lot had gone on. And so as soon as I had alcohol, I was like, oh my god I'm free yeah I can see it

like I can see it as you're describing it totally you feel like you've got all this burden on your shoulders all this responsibility like you're having to hold up all the pieces

of other people's lives and then you have some alcohol and you're it's escapism yeah you're taken out of that you're taking out of that tight energy is like gone and I'm like and you can be the fun one

yes yeah you're always the sister the daughter whatever it is it's holding everything together and you're always a serious one of the responsible one For once, you just get to be fun.

Yeah. And that control, oh my God, it just plagued my life. And that's something I've had to work on in my recovery quite a bit. Because even when you put down the drink, you then realize all the reasons you were drinking in the first place. And so it's been a long process of healing over the last 20 years. 20 years. Well, I've just added 10 years of recovery. Over the last nine years, it's been a long process of healing.

And that my siblings are like, please, you have to work on this because we're all grown now. You don't need to keep controlling us and worrying about us. But yeah, I would say that's what alcohol did for me. Allow me to, like, drop that mask a little bit and stop being like, I'm here to please, I'm here to do whatever needs to be done. And you said you noticed straight away that the way you drank was different to the way your peers were drinking. It's more of like a desperate, I guess.

Yeah, just loved it. I always describe it on my social media as like a vampire. Like, you know when you watch those vampire diaries or something and they have like a little bit of blood and then they go absolutely mental because they're like, I need more, any more. That was how it felt was like once I had one, I couldn't stop. And also I behaved quite dysfunctionally. Like, you know that mate that always, you're like, oh my God, why do they always have to, like, kick off?

Or why do they always have to cry? Yeah. Or like, I was either crying, having a fight, being like really cringe or just, I don't know, just I guess all that stuff that was on the inside that I wasn't letting out was just coming out at the seams. And like my parents were getting divorced around the time that I started going at as well. So I was, it would all come out when I was drinking. That's really tough. And you said how things started to become like normal for you.

And it's so funny, isn't it, how you, and I think this is across things like eating disorders as well, how you get desensitized to your own disordered behaviors. And they just, like if you have, when you gain perspective and you step away, you're like, whoa. But in the time, you can, like, our brain's very easily tricked. Yeah. And it's so funny that you, I mean, my little sister. ended up with an eating disorder at the age of 12 and um like really really bad like had to get a year's worth of help and um i always compare the two because it's like i feel like it's

kind of the same thinking and people are like it's not about the drinking it's about the thinking because yeah it's just this same sort of like me and my sister are super similar in the way that our brains work and it's just this like self-abuse stuff and this but also maybe like trying to grab control of something in some way but that you you do you normalize i don't want to say crazy but you do normalise crazy quite quickly. Yeah, yeah, because it just becomes your normal. Yeah, because once you go to work drunk once, it's like, well, I did it last week and it was fine,

so I can do it again, no one noticed. Yeah. Or you can convince yourself that no one noticed. Yeah, and it's always short-term thinking over long-term thinking. It's like, I'll fix today. Yeah, yeah. I'll fix the fact that I'm dying this morning, and I'm so freaked out about what happened yesterday,

and I'm so, like, you know, withdrawing to the point where I'm shaking, and I'm not going to be able to pick up the phone at work today because my hand will be shaking, I'm just going to have a drink. And then tomorrow, I'll deal with the fact that I seem to be drinking in the mornings. Yeah. Did people notice at work? Or were you quite good at hiding it? They would probably say now that they knew.

Or maybe they were like, she's behaving weird. She's behaving strangely. But because I was in ad sales, there was an opportunity to be out of the office. So I would go to the pub on the way to a meeting. And there were times that I did come back to the office and I did kind of humiliate myself a little bit. But otherwise I was quite good at keeping it under wraps. It was like, but then I guess I bet I knew I had water and vodka in water bottles like on my desk. Really?

I would just be slowly swigging. So I'm sure they had some idea. But how do, it's really difficult to pull somebody up on that behavior. Yeah. And I guess this is 12 years ago, right? Nine years ago, yeah. Nine years ago when, and especially in the ad world where a lot of socializing and boozing is kind of quite excessive. It's acceptable, it's more acceptable, it was more acceptable then, and especially in that industry.

So I bet you could kind of get away with it a bit more. Yeah, and one of my sisters is still in that industry and I think it's still pretty, like, it's a party industry, for sure. It's a sociable industry and I think a lot, you can kind of get away with a lot more in that sort of industry. But it's not for the faint hand. I would not go back to do that. No. Yeah. Yeah.

It's not a great environment for a sober person. No. And then, so your boyfriend ended up leaving. What was your relationship like with your friends by this point? If you had been, as you say, like dysfunctional on the nights out and stuff. That was like a freak out moment was when one of my friends in particular called me out. We'd like, we'd gone on a weekend to Bristol. Is it Bristol?

We've gone to Bath to see her at uni and I got text the next day. Like I'd been in blackout for the whole weekend. I got back to London. I drank on the, we got a bus home and I drank on the bus home and my friend was like, you're wasted. Why are you drunk? Like not understanding how I got drunk in the toilet. And I got, I started getting texts from my friends being like, you are unwell. You need help. And then you're like, oh no. Because you can't continue to hide when people start being like, we know you're sick. We know you have a problem. And we're not going to just sit here and be like, yeah, let's all go out.

and enjoy that together so friends did start to call me out and that particular friend I'm very grateful that she did do that how did that feel is that panicky yeah and shame yeah like I think one of the biggest emotions in addiction is is shame because you're constantly lying to people where you wouldn't necessarily like I'm not a liar in my life otherwise but addiction turn me into a liar you are constantly humiliating yourself and yeah you're just living with permanent shame

so once people start to call it out you really can't run from it anymore I would say do you think that can either ascend you that can send you one of two ways you either double down and go further into the addiction or pull out of it because I imagine that's really hard to face

if you have to then face all of, you know, that's really difficult. Yeah. Face all your behavior, face all, everything that you've done. Yeah, and I did it at 21, so like there wasn't that much to like look back on and deal with. But when you come into recovery at the age of 40, 50, 60, whatever it is, then it's, there's a lot to deal with. And that's why in Alcoholics Anonymous in the 12-step program, they have like an amends process where you have to go and make amends to everybody that you've hurt and that is a, oh my God, doing that at 21 teaches you a lot.

Going to people and being like, I understand that I hurt you and I will never do it again or I'm gonna try never to do it again and I want to make amends for that. Whilst also knowing that they might not forgive you and that's completely their prerogative. Like you're not going in to get their forgiveness. Did you reconnect with your boyfriend in that way?

We kind of gave it the poor guy, He's probably like sitting stuff on social media. Stop talking about me. Yeah, like we were kind of okay when I got out of treatment, kind of gave another shot, but there was a lot of water under the bridge. I'd not, I treated him appallingly. We were together five years, and so he was there throughout the whole thing. And so the kindest and best thing I could do for him was let him go and start afresh.

And I think we both realized that that was the right thing to do. Like you just had that moment. We were like, oh, we're done. And not in an angry, hurtful way, but kind of like, this is, we're going to be different people from here. And I am a completely different person to that broken person I was then. And I don't think it's quite difficult to take a relationship into recovery because you do change so much. So, yeah, I tried to make amends to him. But I felt like my biggest amends was just go to live your life and be happy away from me.

Yeah. it's interesting what you say about like having to do the amends particularly at 21 but like given what you're saying earlier and it's so true about like the drinking culture in Britain it's actually probably quite a lot of your behaviour not drinking at work but a lot of your like public behaviour like the blackout weekend like being really drunk their friends crying starting fights that's not uncommon in teenagers anyway yeah so it's In a way, it's like, yeah, 21 is quite okay because it's like, well, we were all, to an extent, you know, like abusing alcohol.

But it is wild that we are so, like, accepting of a mistreatment of what is a drug, essentially. And that is the mad thing. It's like, until I started the TikTok and actually started talking about it properly, I was like, this is crazy, like when you think about it, that it is a drug. Because I never want to come across as judgmental of drinkers with my whole family drinks, all my mates drink. I'm basically the only sober person. in my circles and so I never want to appear like okay but I don't drink and you all do and like

it's like terminus yeah because my siblings would kill me but you do when you start to like understand there was a particular there was an interview on I think Good Morning Britain where this woman was like if you don't have alcohol at your wedding I'm not coming and I think it's like weird not to have alcohol at your wedding and it's a celebration so like you're not letting your guests have the choice I was like, yeah but like we wouldn't have that debate about cake though I'm not coming to your wedding unless you have cake I think we've kind of lost the spirit of what a wedding is

really there but like that's fine do whatever you want to do but it's this it is a drug yeah yeah you would never like I'm not coming to your wedding unless there's cocaine I'm not there I'm simply not coming you do not understand I'm out I feel like that's a really British thing as well isn't it because it's like a British objective

to just get absolutely Yeah, so you just get absolutely annihilated at weddings. Although I've had a lot of Australians be like, it's happening over here as well, guys. Yeah, yeah. So, so it is a bit, a bit mad, because it's also just like, it's not even that, it's not good for you.

Like, we're learning a lot more and more about how it's just, it's not good for your brain. Yeah. Yeah, the anxiety, particularly. So real. The mental. Especially the older you get. Yeah.

From watching, like, the people around me. I'm like, this is getting worse. Is everyone aware? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're all getting worse. more anxious every time you drink more hungover but like I'm not saying that to their faces

because I would slap me yeah have you heard that but what's it like having this so you are having this conversation on an Instagram and you touched on it earlier saying like people didn't really believe that you had a problem at 21 why do you think that is um I don't think we're used to seeing young women in particular with addiction problems I think I get a lot of stuff on my social media which I hate going into where they're like, you speak nice and you clearly have a house

and like therefore you can't be mentally ill. I'm like, I get it. We can bring like we should bring privilege into the conversation because I was, I managed to get treatment because of the people around me and I'm incredibly lucky that that happened. However, privilege is not equal.

Sound mental health. No, an addiction doesn't discriminate. No, at all. Yeah. So it doesn't, it may be, not mean that you get help for the for the toxic stuff that's going on so um i would say that probably played into it the masking of being like i'm fine i'm okay i'm all good when i wasn't um but age i would say probably biggest thing we don't see that many women represented like we did an episode

last year with um gamble aware about gambling and we had two female gambling addicts which really felt like unusual because when you picture gamblers you picture like old men at the bookies yeah yeah and it's actually odd i think you probably think of like i think of like frank from shameless when i think about alcoholics yeah or like you know matthew perry or whatever and i guess amy winehouse kind of like a different brand yeah and it's there's something about this like infantilization of young women about and i find it really interesting like even i'm a randomly fascinated by the Cray twins, the Cray brothers,

I don't know why, just legend. That film's so good. Watch it all the time. Is that the Tom Hardy? Yeah, so good. It's so good. Anyway, Frankie, his wife, Reggie Cray's wife, I think she was 21, maybe when she killed herself,

and it was by an overdose. And it was like, there's something about this, like, almost glamourisation of pills. And I don't know if it was like the housewives, like that sort of trope of like the housewives like taking Valium or Xanax or whatever and then it kind of went through on that and then you kind of have like I don't I don't know if Britney's was particularly substance abuse but like kind of that crazy Hollywood era of like the party girl Lindsay Lohan them getting arrested obviously Amy Winehouse dying so it's not

that we're not seeing women drinking but it's like we're not giving them the compassion to ever acknowledge that it's a mental health I don't know it's really weird like because we're not devoid of those things. They do exist, but we just don't treat them as addiction. I don't know. Yeah, and I think it's all of those people, even with like Cara Delavine and like, it's that kind of cool party culture.

Like, that's what we expect women to be doing and we expect them to kind of grow out of it. Yeah. Yeah, because she had those, yeah, she's had quite public. She's very publicly in recovery now. Yeah, and those photos. But the lack of humanity when those photos. Oh my gosh.

That was horrible at the end. or yeah yeah and the ones where she dropped the cocaine on a doorstep and whatever and she's just being papped like to death and it's like it's really weird this level of like intensity that we bring to women who are clearly very unwell yeah but we never would just be like oh they're an addiction so we should leave them to it do you know what I mean it's really like it's that like weird obsession with like the media just love to chew out women and spit them out and just sort of yeah watch them burn yeah crash and burn yeah Modern Witches. Yeah. Yeah. I find it, I'm really interested in the, like, current. I've been reading, since Matthew Perry died, I've been reading his, listening to his audiobook.

Oh, yeah. Which has actually been amazing. And listening to you speak, it's really what he said about privilege, what he said about shame. Like, there's a lot of it that is ringing very true in what you say. But I just, I find it really interesting, the celebrity culture. It's so prevalent in it, even, I don't know if I'm putting him on blast, but like Liam from Wonder.

who's clearly not very well and still the like intense scrutiny I just find like very interesting and we're not learning we're just watching the same pattern go so like I don't really know what the question is I guess it's like no one's taking responsibility for it because it's like pack mentality yeah not pat mentality what do I mean it's like you know you know how if it's like there's a bus full of people watching something like no one will help but if there's like one person watching something bad happen that person will help I guess we're all kind of like watching it and it's like well not taking responsibility for it and we're not necessarily giving it the gravitas that it deserves because it's kind of like well what can we do but it's yeah but we're kind of weirdly fascinated by it yeah yeah it is really I feel like a lot of that like celebrity addiction is kind of a show and there's a really sick part of us that kind of what revels in watching people fall apart well that we think it's cool I don't know I feel like there is still that glamorisation of it a little bit. Yeah, I'd say even watching

the Amy Winehouse the final like shows that she did and she's clearly so unwell but if you have a look at the comments everyone's like queen, queen, love her she didn't stand for any shit, you know, whatever and it's like yeah, that's true but also.

Poorly. She's so poorly and we're still like kind of revering her behavior. Yeah, like the 27 club. Yeah, yeah. Actually really wild, isn't it? I was going to say, I remember the pictures

of Jonathan Rees-Meyers coming out. Yeah, those were the, yeah. It was at an airport as well. I feel like it was on the street. Yeah. And he was like, it was in the daytime and he was drinking vodka and I think it was all down him and...

Who's the other one was that? And I just... Is it Gaza? Yes. Always pictures of him in the street. And I'm like, what are you... That is a really poorly human being and you're popping them.

Yeah. Where's the humanity in that? And we, yeah, we don't have any words. It's like, I don't remember they're being much compassion. around it. I don't really remember there being much compassion around all the time because like my TikTok was full of Carri DeVine videos, people trying to get those videos of her. Yeah. Where she was looking really unwell. And there were just a lot of comments kind of taking the piss out of her. They did it with Matthew Perry when he was here in London. I remember

when he was here rehearsing for a play and I remember being like Matthew Perry's in London doing a play about addiction because I was in my first year of recovery. He'd written a play about his experience with addiction and it premiered in London and there were pictures of him like I think he just spilled a drink down his front but it was like has he relapsed has he relapsed all over the daily mail all over everything it's like what are you doing yeah leave him alone yeah yeah because if anything's going to make you since he's died which is only which is only a couple weeks ago a few weeks ago. What have you, how do you think the narrative has been around his death in regards to his addiction? Do you think it's been positive or negative? Well, I might be in an echo chamber,

must always state that, but I think it's been extremely positive. I was shocked by the number of people when I did a video about him just saying like what he did for the addiction community and how much he meant to the addiction community. And then people were like, I had no idea about all of this. I'm like, really because that for me was like him yeah um was that stuff because he challenged the stigma really early on and there's that interview going around with him and peter hitchins um where peter hitches is like addiction is a myth and it's a choice and matthew perry's like yeah cool my life would say otherwise but yeah but at the time that was really controversial that he went oh actually addiction is a disease and in the the america have always been a bit further ahead on this stuff than

we have but in this country it was like oh wow the guy from friends is on telly talking about addiction and and not and challenging the the shame that addicts feel like getting up there and being like I'm not ashamed of that and that was a huge thing as the child of an alcoholic and then somebody that would later go on to go into recovery I was like thank you yeah um not hiding away and actually facing it like challenging that shame face on yeah um and because the this can't this country America is full of addicts they're everywhere they're um your friends or your friends parents or someone someone somewhere is struggling with it and you know we continue to incarcerate people that need help and there's a whole there's a whole conversation around all of that stuff but matt perry got up and

had something to say about it he said that drug courts would be a really good idea where we would like specifically have courts for people with addiction problems where we would then try and rehabilitate instead of incarcerate and he set up a sober house for men as well he was constantly trying to move the conversation forward so I think it's been really positive and gutting at the same time I think it's been generally really positive I guess the one thing that I've seen is I mean we don't know exactly how we die he died do we but I think a lot of people have speculated that it was, he was taking, or had taken something. And they're kind of saying that that then negates all of his work on addiction. Like, God, no, that just, that's,

does that make any sense whatsoever? Right, right. It's such a simplistic, like, reductive way of looking at all the work he's done. And if that were the case, if anything, it just shows how much of a disease yeah it is and how much of a grip it has on your brain and your and your life yeah that it is an illness and that he just kept coming back he was like that's yeah just get out of the trenches like one last time i'm just going to give this another go and he just kept giving it another go and there's some people that it just doesn't stick and it's heartbreaking and it's there is no right way for anybody to get sober or get clean it all depends on what works for you in the but yeah we can't win every single battle but he kept trying I felt that in his book it's like

it was a really because we're so black and white with it and I do feel like we are very reductive when it comes to the conversation around addiction because I think there's a lot it's the same way that we kind of treat like fat people in the kind of like well you're just making bad choices or you're just being lazy or you're just you know whatever and we treat everybody as if they've all, we've all got this like exact amount of willpower and we all like use it in different ways and some of us use it in the right way and some of us use it in the wrong way and like, you know, we're very simplistic with that, but that that that was something and I know a lot of people who've struggled with addiction and something that I really

loved in his book was that it was so raw and honest in that it was like there wasn't it's not like it is in the films, it's not like oh my husband left me and so that's why it all came tumbling down this time or you know i had this like catastrophic thing happened to me and that's why i relapse he just said i can't cope with life like normal people yeah and it's such a valuable thing for somebody even steeped in privilege and who you would never have imagined and he says it the whole time i'm so rich i'm so famous like and it got me like what and it's got me so tightly and it's like there was such a really hard to listen to at times but like just so but so beautiful in that it's just so he's so self-aware yeah and so just like and this and this and this and this and

it's ugly but it's the truth yeah and I don't think we get a lot of that although now seeing more of it on TikTok actually yeah yeah it's cool like it's really valuable and I would say that that's the nice thing about the addiction community and that I think he would a test to is it's like I don't care what like where you come from who you are we are all the same we all have the same thinking yeah um just can't deal with life basically it's like doesn't matter what your life is you just can't do with it just can't do with life on life's terms um can I ask you a personal question about your recovery do you feel do you feel like you're constantly having to fight it like it is every day at a time you're constantly having to not drink

fight against the urge to drink? Not anymore. Not at all. Not at all. I would say that my brain, I mean, we have these like neuro pathway, my understanding of it, I'm not a psychologist, we have these like neuro pathways in our brain that the more we practice a behavior, the deeper entrench those become.

And so I would say, I like say to my followers, the more you can say no to something, the deeper entrenched that pathway becomes. I'm like, I don't need to do this. I can't do this. It's like an allergy to me. It's like if I'm allergic to nuts, I don't eat nuts. I'm allergic to alcohol

I don't drink alcohol and these days like I'm actually quite soon into my recovery I would say I'm around drinkers all the time doesn't bother me I'm just like that's just not I can't do that like I abuse that privilege

and it will kill me so I'm just not going to have it and I don't like there are rare occasions like the other day I was on a horrifically turbulent flight and I hate I'm really like I'm okay with flying but not a fan of turbulence and at that moment I was like give me a box

like please so in moments of extreme stress that's when I find that I want it but otherwise no like I got married in May and I didn't think about it once that whole day thank you so much did you have alcohol at your wedding yeah okay yeah my my husband drinks like a normal human very rarely drinks actually but yeah did not like a normal human Yeah, not like a normal British person. Yeah, and didn't think about it once the whole day. It just, it's just not like a thing for me anymore. That's great.

And what made you want to start sharing it and making it such a big part of your identity, I guess? I would actually say that I finally got into drama school and I went to drama school and I did it a bit older than other people and I had a lot of 18 year olds with me and so I was like 25, 26. And I couldn't believe how many, not just at drama school,

but I couldn't believe how many young people were struggling with this stuff, like now. And I thought there's not, I really don't feel like there's a conversation out there about young people and addiction. Or definitely not with alcohol. To be like, sometimes it's actually not, like it's just not good.

There are people that it just doesn't agree with and that's okay. And so I wanted to start a conversation. I just didn't know how to do it. And just to be like, this happens. Like you can be 19 and have an addiction problem and I get kids in my DMs that go into school drunk. Like yeah. It's tough out there. Do you think it's worse than it was than we were kids? I think the world's scarier. I think, you know, we're calling kids snowflakes. We're turning

and they can't deal with stuff. There's not services out there. I would actually say the mental health services were better when I came into recovery and they're worse now. Really? Because you can't get therapy. Therapy was a really important part of my recovery. Yeah. Um, waiting lists for like cams, the children, adolescent services, mental health services that people are telling me there's like six year waiting lists for these things. And like these are things people are telling me. So like, nobody, don't shoot the, don't shoot me. But um, don't shoot me. But so that that might not be true. But in some areas, people cannot get the help. And so I'd say it's, I think we've got a really weird concoction of stuff. I don't know if you feel it, but I feel like there's a concoction of

stuff. The pandemic. Yeah, I think the pandemic was really. I also think the addiction and I don't know I was always quite not skeptical. It's not the right word, but interested in like gambling addictions because it's not the same thing as like a substance abuse. So like I was really interested in like how it is that we can become addicted to something that isn't causing like a physical reaction in us. Yeah. And I think it's really interesting looking at the amount of young people who are now self-diagnosing or being diagnosed with addictions to screens.

And I wonder like what and we're probably all addicted to screens to whatever. But I don't I don't know the psychology of like the gambling awareness, but it kind of feels like that similar avenue. And that that feels really prevalent and quite worrying. I think it's dopamine. Yeah. She is all dopamine connected. And I feel like there are people.

out there that are attesting to that that it is they're like this is all to do with dopamine in the brain yeah it's that this would that be the same for like alcohol as well so all addiction stems from and I guess eating disorders I don't know do they count as I don't think so less less so yeah I don't know I don't know anything about science clearly but like I wonder like the the more we're exposed to the more there is to become addicted to I guess that's why yeah and I think there's God I've had talks on the brain to do of addiction but is Like when you start giving it a substance

or when you gamble, when you give it that hit, essentially, you start to break the pleasure center in the brain. I'm not going to explain this very well, so I won't go into it. But it starts to like your dopamine levels, you need more to get the same level of hit. Yeah. Because you're like, your brain basically gets used to it. So you have to do it more and more and more and more.

And your brain tries to regulate that amount of pleasure you're getting by giving you the pain, which is what then the urge that comes in for like, I'm desperate, I'm sad, I need more of that, which is then the pain that gives you the pleasure and then it's this horrible, vicious cycle. Yeah, horrible. Yeah, and I think, like, food addiction, I think that's...

Yeah, we'll be basically the same, I would say. Groped in with it, yeah, it's horrible. Yeah, it is. And I believe that the... I'm just saying I believe I'm not obviously trained at this at all, but the best way is like a complete detox. Like, that's the only way to, like, dopamine. mean detox that's so hard yeah it is and I think so for me I know that abstinence is the only way

it's like it's all or nothing with me so it's just not even when people go like how do you know that you couldn't drink normally I'm like would you risk it yeah like would you the 12 step program says like is is an abstinence based program and there are other programs that you know harm reduction and things like that but for me it's like why would I why once I off it why would I reintroduce that back into my life it destroyed my life it's interesting that there's even that pressure on you that it's any that we do make it our business to ensure that other people are drinking like that woman's wed the woman's comment about the wedding people get so angry about it people get so angry about it's really interesting the comments like it really yeah been

like just have a drink what's wrong with you like I don't know I don't know if it's like a mirror I don't know and I kind of go maybe these are people that have issues themselves and so therefore don't like that mirror held up to them. And so they're like, well, just shut up and drink. Yeah. But yeah. It must be. Yeah.

I can't think of any other reason why you'd want a stranger on the internet who'd made themselves better to make themselves worse. Like. Yeah. It doesn't make sense. Doesn't, yeah. The internet is a crazy place. The internet's insane.

Yeah. Do you ever worry that another addiction will come up? Yeah. that happens all the time so like I document quite a lot about my vaping journey which we wouldn't really call it a journey at this point it just sort of that's the thing I'm doing at the moment

and nicotine has been a real problem for me I think it was also a big problem for Matthew Perry my god I was like really struck by his like smoking it's like three and a half three packets a day no my dad was doing three or four packets a day at the height of his smoking 20 packs Yeah

But Matthew Perry would say Like even he had His colon exploded Because of the amount of opioids he was taking Because he'd make you constipated

And he was in hospital For like three or four months With a colonoscopy or whatever Which is plenty enough time To kick A smoking habit But then the second he got out He had a cigarette

Yeah I find the smoking addiction Really Really interesting Because that isn't You know he had he did have ample time to not physically need it but like mentally yeah i feel like nicotine for me is like some weird crutch it's like this is my bubble or like coffee is the same for me as well

like that's my thing so if you take my thing from me what am i going to do who am i like what do i like what do i have in my life and my husband's like just like get obsessed with yoga i'm like shut up you get obsessed with yoga yeah um it's yeah those like protection the smaller addictions that don't actually, it's also they don't have consequences. And I know they have like long-term consequences with your help. Yeah. But with drugs and alcohol, it's like,

I like it's a mess. Yeah. So I find those kind of addictions much harder to kick. And I've gone through many. Because the stakes aren't as high. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not as urgent.

Yeah. Which was my problem with codeine right at the beginning as well. It was like there wasn't really, all it was doing was giving me this sort of gentle buzz. Yeah. It wasn't ruining my life. and so therefore it was kind of it was so hard to kick because you're like oh I could just go back to that and it'll be fine

consequence is quite a big thing yeah I find it really interesting like the way that the psychology of things like I smoked for 10 years and I just decided to give it up one day and it was that easy for me I know and it's really interesting now the more people I speak to with addiction and like listening to Matthew Perry about it and it's just like we do not have the same brains

there is something fundamentally different and it's like I think we lack the empathy particularly online you know the comments that you're getting people like and it's this willful misunderstanding of addiction where we can't see that just because something isn't the case for us that it wouldn't be the case for somebody else so that we can do it so why can't they um it's when a mother is like struggling with addiction and she's having to pick her addiction over her kids like ask any mother I'm not a mother myself but like this is how I had it explained me it's like no mother in her right mind would ever do that yeah so she's not in her right mind she's not in her right mind yeah she's not well yeah and we don't have the compassion

for that at all which is really depressing but maybe like we'll get a proper diagnosis at some point they're really they're connecting ADHD to addiction a lot at the moment as well which is that I'm like oh they're just a lot of the population just have a different brain yeah and the other part of the population has this kind of brain and actually this this section are kind of getting on because it's like it's you can get through life with it and this section are like whoa help yeah like this is not working yeah and especially in this like dopamine very heavy world that we live in it's really it's very yeah it's prevalent yeah it's so easy to be an addict so easy yeah it's like more more more more more yeah society a meeting's still a big part of your life now

I don't go as much as I used to but I've been through like quite a big stint of therapy recently so I've kind of been put my focus on that but like yeah I'm going to meet in next week so I'll drop in and out my parents still goes three times a week and they're 15 years into recovery so I'm always like and there'll be people in 12 step that will be like don't tell people that they can't not do three meetings a week I'm not telling people to do that my standpoint has always been do what works for you the most important thing for me is being curious and being a seeker in life. So, like, I'm big on the Wim Hof method at the moment, like right now. Oh, we talked about that, didn't we? Oh, yeah, I really want to do that.

I want to do it. It's life-changing. No, but then I just feel like I can just put ice in my own bar. I don't need to make it my whole personality, but honestly, I'm going to show out on whether that's going to happen or not. Well, I know. We're good at making random things our whole personality. Yeah, I'm thinking of that. Fine, I'll become Wimhoff. I'm going to hang out with you. Yeah. Start it in the summer though, dojo now because you will die because I'll be bored by stuff. Yeah. No, I'll have lost the The fad will have gone by then. I do feel like, you'll understand because my husband was like, I was like, buy me an ice bath.

Can we get an ice bath? And he's like, do a year of cold showers and I'll buy you an ice bath. And I'm like, oh. Have you done it? No. Did he get your ice bath? Well, no. I mean, as in, I've still got six months to go, but I never stick with things.

Yeah. See, we did talk about this. We could just put ice in our own bath. That is a lot of effort. I know. I have a freezer. Get in the freezer. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm just a freezer and just lie down in it. No, I've told you. That's my fear. My fear is that they'd all open a chest freeze and there'll be a dead body in it. It'll be mine. Oh, God. But you can buy ice baths really like...

Oh, they're like three grand. Oh, like the really nice ones are. You can buy like a rubbish one. Well, you could just buy a tin. Liv Humby. A barrel. A barrel. Livhombie keeps going in one and she keeps showing her discount code

and I keep thinking, should I? No, look at the state of you. Your baby will be like, ah! You can't do it pregnant, I don't do. I don't know. I would... I'd look that. I'll be making slushies.

I'm still breast. feeding she'll be like what the fuck ice cream yeah maybe Wimhoff's not for me but like trying out crazy stuff I have to as you said as Matthew Perry said not to kid I'm not like the ultimate source of Bristol Matthew Perry but that he said I have to like to be okay I have to just work really hard yeah and so I just have to keep seeking those things like I did meditation I've done spirituality I've done and I just take little bits of different things that work and make it work and make it work. Yeah, and I guess, like, that's really nice,

like making peace with the fact that you've got a brain that needs that. Because I think I used to think of addiction as, like, you have to recover and be okay with exactly who you are and your life. And you don't, but actually it can be, I think that's really nice to make peace with the fact that, like, oh, actually, my brain needs this. Like, I can't seek those things in, from that, you know, from that avenue because it's really destructive. but I can find it in healthier, you know, less toxic forms.

Yeah. And I think that's quite cool. And my friends just accept that about me now. They're like, we all went to Croatia a few months ago and I'm there doing like deep breathing and trying to do yoga. And they were like, just is he's off doing a thing? And that's fine. Or like they'll get involved as well, which is great.

But you just have to seek those things that work. And 12 step is part of that in my life, but just not as rigidly as my parent. But, and there's lots out there to help. Yeah, and even more now with the space online that you are part of, which is really valuable. I think it's really cool. Thanks, guys. Thank you. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us. Thanks for having me.

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