Should I Delete That? - Alasdair Gill: How My Late Dad Saved Me From Addiction

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

This week on the pod, Alex and Em are joined by chef and writer Alasdair (Ali) Gill. Ali and Em - whose parents were close friends - have been mates for years. Ali’s late father is the renowned journalist, author and critic A. A. Gill. Like his father, Ali has suffered with addiction, which led him on a journey to rehab; it was there, during his recovery, that he sought comfort in his father’s memoir, which details his own struggles with alcohol. Though this moment came after his father’s death, Ali felt seen, and finally understood that he wasn’t alone.You can follow Ali on Instagram @aligill421 and check out his catering business @gordonandgillFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Really at the centre of my recovery is honesty. You've got to be honest. And you know, that's really what kills in addiction. You know, it took me 27 years to understand saying, I'm not okay. Was even an option. Hi, no wait. Hello. Hello.

Oh, okay, sorry, hello. Hi, and welcome back, no, that I hate my, I hate my voice, okay. I think that was good. No, hello, no. Oh, my God, I'm over thinking yet. Hi, and welcome back to the should I delete, no, I forgot what it was called. Hi, and welcome back to the Should I Delete that podcast, I'm Clarkson. And I'm Alex Light.

And we fucking smash that. I'm laughing because, like, you had this really weird manic monologue there. I know, I, yeah, you're right, it isn't easy. I honestly, I could never be a newsreader. Imagine. Imagine trying to introduce the news. Hello, I'm Emily Clarkson. Welcome to the BBC News. Hello. Hello. The BBC news, I mean, we haven't got time because we were always told we have to hurry through the intras. But BBC, what a week. What an interesting, topical week.

Oh my God, what a week? What a week? We went super authoritarian there and then we bounced back just in time. Got kind of scary, got kind of weird. I was like, is this where we're going? No. How are you? No. Me? Oh, I'm good.

How are you? I'll wait to tell you. I'll wait to tell you. How are you? How's your butt hole? Is it stinging? Sorry, I don't know why else? Why have I done that?

No, it's, it's so bad. It's so bad. Oh, no. Tell the group. We'll start. Let's go. We'll start. Let's go. We've got the fact that you've got a newborn. I don't care.

This is horrific. We've both birthed something recently. Guaranteen mine weighed more. Okay. I want to hear about it. I don't even know until yesterday that you were sick. Oh my God. So I got what I think has been the norovirus, right? And I've had stomach books before. I've had stomach viruses before. Nothing has ever been as bad as this ever in my life. I have felt like there is a demon in my body trying to get out as the only way I can describe it. I have been so sick. You're going to think I'm being dramatic here. I'm not.

You're going to think I'm making it up? I'm not. On Monday, when I first got it, and it was like really bad. And I couldn't get out of bed, genuinely couldn't get out of bed. No one else was in the house. But I was like, man, and I was like, mom, and I was like, mom, I'm really hot, but also really cold and I'm scared. I think I was like hallucinating a little bit. She's like, what you're scared about? And I was like, the end of the bed. I was like, not well, like really not well. So she was like, right, go and get paracetamol. You need paracetamol to bring your fever down. I was like, the paracetamol is downstairs. I can't get there

and she was like you'll be fine you can get there and I was like I don't think you can't get there anyway I tried to get there

so I got off up off the bed I walked like two steps I fainted and I did I fainted on the floor on the ground

everything went black my legs went to pure jelly and I woke up vomiting on the floor my god wooden or carpet

word thank God oh yeah it was absolutely fine Betty might hate the floors but that's really come swung round in your favour. Fucking hell out.

What a drama... How about that? Imagine if you'd have gone down the stairs. This could have had a... This could have had a very morbid turn. Oh my God. Are you okay? I don't know anyone that's just like collapsed. No, that's right.

How mid-century of you? I love it. Talk about it. It's long for you to collapse upon. I've got a light-headed. I must collapse now. I mean, talk about taking it to the next level, though, right? And I feel like,

none of my family believe me. They were like, oh, yeah, you fainted. And I'm like, no, no, I full on, whacked out and woke up vomiting. Good for you. I like the commitment. I'm impressed. You're such an overachiever. Seems from the exorcist all around this house.

100%. You see, most people would just be like, oh, I feel a little rousy. I'm going to sit down. Not you. You're like, no, if I'm going to do something, I'm going to do it fucking properly, actually. I'm up and I'm down. I'm at the fucking deck. Yes.

Drama. I love it. Inspiring. I'm living nothing on the table. And so, yeah, horrendous, sick all day. And then, so that night, I get into bed. I don't think I told you this actually, right? So that night, I get into bed.

And I'm going back and forth to the toilet, back and forth, about every 10 minutes, going back and forth to the toilet. And Dave's just trying to get to sleep. He's put the white noise machine on, and he's got his eye mask on. And I'm going back and forth, back and forth. And at some point, I was like,

I actually can't go back and forth anymore. too cold. The floor's too cold. I'm too cold. I need to just stay in bed. I'm just going to try and get to sleep. I'm just going to shit myself. I'm just going to try and get to sleep. So I put my, I put my headphones in and I was listening to a podcast and I was actually feeling like the drowsiness and the warmth of like sleep sort of like washing over me. And then I felt actual warmth, right? No, no, no, no. No, no. So I was like, it kind of brought me, it brought me out of the sleep. It brought me out of the drows. And I was like, that's either, Betty's pissed herself. Unlikely. I've shat myself. Most likely. Or I'm having a dream. I wake up, open the covers.

And poor little Betty is sitting there and she's been sick. What? All over me. All over the covers. The biggest sick for a dog. Like she doesn't eat enough to justify that amount of sick. Like more sick than I produced. All over the bed. my side of the bed. Normally she just sleeps on. She does sleep on dayside. She purposely migrated over to my side to vomit. I was covered. I was so cold. I was absolutely covered in sick. My hoodie, my t-shirt, my pants, even my knickers. I was absolutely covered in sick. The bed was soaked in sick. I have so many questions. Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why is she sick? I don't, can you share a virus for the dog.

Yeah, dogs can get it. From humans? Yeah. Oh my God. Oh my God. Wait, that could be misinformation, but I believe so. I love my brand. It's probably misinformation.

It's probably misinformation. Oh my God, so it can happen. You gave Betty. Oh my God. I know. The petition to take her back to the streets of Cyprus continues. I know. Wooden floors in the neurovirus.

I mean, the poor creature. God. Honestly, like, my initial thought was what the fuck. and then the next one I just looked down at her and she's all shivery and just like looking up at me from her little pile of sick and I was like oh Betty so I was I mean Dave's fast asleep get a fuck up Dave get out of her wife get with your daughter I'm going to clean off the sick and if he doesn't wake up at that point

I'm just going to leave the sheet on and let him sleep and that's what happened but I had to get up have a shower take off obviously like change my clothes and sleep on the couch he slept through that he slept through it all

oh my god anything think it happened when he woke up in the morning and just know you and a pile of sick I'll teach you to put your fucking headphones in just leave a pile of sick extra and go

he must have thought you did it as a dirty protest because he wouldn't know that the dog's called neurovirus because why would anyone think that you gave the dog neurovirus? He definitely thought you were just like, fuck it, blur, I'm out. Morning.

That's really funny. Oh no, poor name. He didn't even notice. He came, he walked down and me and Betty on the sofa like, shivering, like sick as dogs. Oh, literally. And he was like, oh, did we just go up? I was like, no, no, no, Dave.

We have not just got up. I've been a night So yeah There you go That's my bad I'm all of it together That's pretty bad I'm pretty awkward

I've been excited To get it all off my chest Yeah fair enough Jesus You've got it all out your chest Out my chest Out my bum Oh god

I'm sorry I'm really sorry for you Please you've heard enough About my bum hole Yeah that's true actually It was my time to shine My butthole's time to shine Um

How are you What's going on I've got bads I've got awkward because I've got goods. I've just got a plethora of things. Right, so my bad, I've talked about it on Instagram, but I just need to make the story live. So on last week, I had to go to the dentist.

Since Arlo's been born, I've had toothache, which has felt like the biggest insult to India. I'm like, right, I've had a fucking cesarean then my two things. Like, it was so annoying. Anyway, such is life. So it's like, you know what? I'm going to fuck it. I'm going to grow the fuck up and I'm going to go to the dentist.

Now, I have been, if you are new to this, buckle up. because in 2021 I had to have my jaw broken in three places and reset with a whole load of metal screws and since then it has not been a happy ending dear caller first my front tooth died which was bleak and then one of my screws came loose then my sinus wall popped then I had to have another little surgery to remove two screws and four no four six screws and two plates so anyway a bunch of the metal was removed which was foul anyway since then I found another little screw sticking out my gum at the bottom. Now, all the nerves in my mouth are dead. So I have been completely ignoring it. The whole period of my pregnancy, I was like, I'm just going to pretend I never saw it. I've

plausible deniability. I don't know anything about it. And anyway, so that's been there for a while and I've been completely avoiding the dentist. I was like, I'm so sick of all of it. Like, I've had so much, like, trauma. I just didn't fancy seeing anything. So I'm in complete denial. And then after a while, my tooth is really hurting. And Alex was like, I think you have a cavity. I've never had a cavity before, despite all of that. I've had perfectly healthy teeth my whole life. So I was like, this sounds like a cavity, I'm going to go to the dentist. So I went to the dentist.

I got to the dentist and the dentist was like, you can't feel your teeth. I was like, yes, I know, I haven't been able to fill my teeth in two years. And he was like, why do you think you have toothache? You can't feel your tooth. I was like, oh yeah, that's a really good point. I don't have toothache. What I have is one of the, another fucking screw coming from God knows where I don't believe it.

Into, I know, one of the chances, into my nerve slash ligament above my back tooth. So, this is my bad. I have to go back to the surgeon

and probably have more screws removed. I think I'm going to talk to them about having all the screws removed. I don't know. Anyway,

very bad, but worse that day was pre the dentist. I took myself to Ore, the fancy-ass cafe to get myself

a baked good. Yeah. Because I thought, if I do have a cavity, I might never be able to be able to eat sugar again because I don't know how this works so I'm I didn't know Alex told me and I was like what that's it no no sugar ever again well lucky I'd have a cavity so I've got three

kilos of jelly beans in the kitchen I need to get through um anyway so I got my croissant now my thing was light as hell my croissant my little french snack and I put it on top of the buggy because I needed my hand to open the door and I got out and I pushed the buggy and it gust of wind picked up the whole bag with my... Sorry, picked up the whole bag

with my snack in it and it flew like before my very eyes and then the croissant came out the bag so then the bag's gone one way and the croissant is just flying

down the king's right and I was like oh my God and all the streets and my fancy castle to go down as well I was like flying down the road

and then it came to a landing like so many people DM me being like, 10 second roll. I was like, I don't think you understand how long it traveled for. It's so far away from me.

It's been on the ground for about 15 minutes. It's been under like 15 cars. Just rolling and rolling and rolling. And it wasn't just a thing that I was like, oh, my Grasor. Like, everyone was like, look, at Guasor. And it was like, we were all just like watching it

like fly down the road, which for some reason was so embarrassing. I was like, I can't check. Imagine how embarrassing it would be to chase the thing. So then I had, had to let it go but then there was this like sad moment where everyone realized that it'd come to a stop and then like the show's over and then everyone carried on with their day and that was that was a really hard thing for me to do it was hard for me to carry on with my day just I'm embarrassed I'm really

embarrassed it was just bad I was like right just let it go and then we went back into a and the woman had seen the whole thing and she just gave us another one for free oh bless her that's really sweet I feel like that was what you deserved I agree. I agree. So I was a bit mortified about the teeth and the screw situation, but then I was just, I was, that was just the cherry on the cake, really. The classon was way worse. That's all way worse.

Don't compare. What's a bit of head surgery, face surgery, you know? No. That's as a humiliation of watching your fucking pastry, blow, fly down the street. And that would have been my awkward, you know. If it weren't for the fact, that on the same street

I came and met you for lunch last Friday and I didn't tell you this but it's the worst thing that's ever happened to me probably it wasn't but it wasn't great you know I sent you a text beforehand saying that I was listening to James Blunt to get into the spirit of seeing you

because I know you love James and so I was listening to James Blunt in the car and me and Alex were listening to Wise Men because it's a fucking anthem and so they're so underrated he just doesn't get the love that he deserves That upsets me. Tell me about it.

Don't get me started. I know, really sad. Anyway, I was listening to him in the car, really getting into it because there was so much passion in that song. Like, there were three wise men just trying to have some fun. And now look at who's alone because it's not him. It's not. Anyway, we were walking down the street with a buggy, with Buwer, with Alex, and with

Singapore. I was with a buggy. He went ahead with Buwer and himself. And I was with the buggy. And in my head, I was walking with Alex, even though he was ahead of me. I've been in my own little bubble for the last few weeks and I was singing. I was just singing to Arlo, I was singing to myself and I was singing for you

because I was so excited to come and see you so I was like, look who's alone now and I was loud and I was bad obviously turn round, who the fuck's that behind me? I don't know is he wearing headphones, no, and he just smiles at me and then walks alongside me for a bit I was like, oh my God, this is so embarrassing and then he just like rush his past

so I don't know how long he was following me for who's alone now It's not me It's not me And I was like But you are alone Like I was walking alone Singing

And I don't remember any of the other And then I was going Those three wise men They've got a semi By the sea And I never know if he's talking about An erection or a lot I know

I think the same I think the same It's ambiguous It is ambiguous It's like why they all got semis It's kind of weird like surely one of them could commit they're all just like

a little bit like all right then cushions on their guys there's three five men they've got it and just one semi between them

I've got such a weird visual right now I know. I've got three men just like one selling. I'm going to Google it. Oh, my tummy hurts. So does mine. They've got Sammy by the sea. What does Google say?

Here's a thought when James Blunt sang about three miles, men by a semi, with a semi by the sea. Do they live in a semi-detached house on the coast? Or did they get their knobs out on a beach? You know, we have to get James Blood on this podcast. First of all, to answer that question. And second of all, because you might remember in Pondfire night when I went to that party that he was randomly there at.

And Katia fell over. And he was the only other person in the room. Oh, James. You don't know. Oh, James. You should have brought a smile to our faces. Yeah, love. Anyway, have you got anything good?

Probably. Yes. What do I have? Oh. Oh. Oh, no. Drive to survive. Yes.

Are you loving it? I am obsessed. Quick question. Quick question. To Formula One cast have back seats? Absolutely not. I don't know if they've got a boot, though, actually. Obviously not.

No, obviously not. Tell me, are you loving it? Where have you got a boot? to. Who are you loving? I am obsessed with it. I am, oh my God, oh, okay, okay. I fancy so much

Toto Wolf. Thank God you said that, me too. Oh my God, I think he's so fit. I fancy him more than any of the drivers. I think he's the most attractive man I've ever seen in my life. Absolutely agree, and he's so serious about his cut. I'm like, oh, the passion. I was so scared you were going to say Danny Ricardo and I was going to have to hang up the call

because he's got like a cock-hold over like all the women in the world, but it's Toto. It's Toto. It's Toto. I am like... And the fun thing is, I'm so obsessed with his wife. You know, I'm so happy you're on this train now because I really wanted his wife on the podcast last year, which will now be a bit weird if she commits because we've just gone on this massive thing

about how fit her husband is. But... Oh my God, you did, and I was just like... I don't know. I don't know. I'm not really into cars, I don't know. But she's amazing. So she's a driver? Yeah, yeah. And I think she's a Mercedes CFO, and then she's been head of Formula E.

like she's epic so we won her oh my god we oh my god i would literally love that i'm so happy you're on the formula one train finally finally i'll never get off of it i'll never get off it's so good what season are you up to i've heard that before i've heard it with the drums yeah no it's been yeah i do feel like this is a day though i've had it with the meditation app i felt it with the boxing but it's okay i believe it this time this is here today though so I'm on season two coming to the end of season two you've got such a good life ahead of you

I might rewatch them all just for the joy but I can't like oh I don't know I'm getting so invested and I'm feeding so sorry for the ones that aren't succeeding I know and I'm having to remember that like I'm doing pretty well I know they're absolutely fine it is crushing though

they're absolutely fine who's a favourite driver I mean season two is very different situation world's changed really really don't like Max for Stappen really don't like him I love Max Verstap him. I think he's just really mean. No, no, no, that shows.

I genuinely, we'll talk about this at another time. Probably we're not on here because most people don't care. But I think he's been done really dirty by the editing because he's very rarely in that show. And I think it's because he just wasn't that bothered. He's kind of focused on the racing. I follow him on Instagram, but also the more he's got into the show, the more the show's got bigger and the more drivers are into it.

I think he's in it more. I think people do team up as the bad guy, which is fair enough. but if you actually listen I find when you listen to his radio stuff he's always like well done team thanks team how's the other like I just think oh that's nice I know

okay now I feel bad and he's got no no I get it because I felt the same but then he's got his girlfriend and she's got a kid and he's like stepdadding the kid and I don't know I don't think he's as bad as what everyone I know I don't think he's as bad as what everyone says well not necessarily keep watching it make your own mind up because I don't know I just I changed my mind a bit

as we got further on okay okay yeah Well, so is it season three? Missing five. You're so lucky. This is so good. This is such good news. I'm going to text.

Can you text me consistently as you're watching it? I want to hear everything. I want to hear who you talking about. Yes. I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to make you think. What else is there in the world that I am just missing out on? Because before, like, last week, I just didn't know this whole whole. world existed and now it's my entire world.

I know. I know. That's your exhausting impulsive life. I know. I know. It's sad. But I'm obsessed. I'm not sad. I'm delighted. Okay. But speaking of worlds, I'd just like you to know that I don't know if I'm comfortable continuing to exist in a world where that bug can happen to me again. Tough. The thing is, is you are alive, Al. And you have to keep being alive

and you're just going to have to make your peace with the fact that there are bad bugs out there. You know. Put it deep shit. It's so awful. I don't wish it on anyone. I don't wish it on anyone. Not even on Putin. Oh, I don't know about that.

No, put it on him. Give it to him. Oh, him shitting through the eye of a needle with a nice shiny butt hole that he's polished. Yeah. Like a genie. Just rubbing in. I'm going to ask David if you'll have a look.

I'll see him shiny. Yeah, I'll be like glimting. You'll see his own reflection in it. Anyway, enough of that. Okay, before we go into today's interview. Oh, my good. Um, my goodness is a little one. My good stem from my bad.

Alex, sorry, if you can hear little snores, it's my infant. Alex went back to the office today and, like, he's gone back to work and I am, I'm flying solo. Um, what's that Jason Derulo song? I'm riding solo. Anyway, great song. Um, and yeah, I'm going on my own, which has been kind of fine, kind of a bit overwhelming. And yesterday I did my first, because I had a cesare and Sue, I've been like easy on the, well, I've been walking a long way, but like, I haven't been holding booers.

It was my first walk with Bua and Arlo yesterday. And I was like out on my own and my little air pods on. And it's like, it was just quite a big thing for me to do on my own with the gang. That's a lot. Yeah, it was okay. But I was just feeling a little bit overwhelmed and like fine, but just, you know, and you're like a little bit like like this. And I was feeling a little bit anxious.

And then I was just walking up the street and, um, a girl smiled at me. And she was like, oh, I love the podcast. And I just was like, oh, thank you. and then I just got a bit teary randomly by myself and just like carried on walking and then I felt way better and it was just like a really lovely thing of just like you know what you're just feeling a bit shit and a bit like oh not shit that's so lovely

yeah I was just feeling a bit like frail hi to that girl I know thanks so much did you catch her name no it was we were like passing like just literally like she I was just like we just passing on the pavement she's like I love the podcast and I was like oh my god and I just made me remember how much like a little thing can boost someone else's day like you know and you're just feeling a bit wobbly

and I made it because I hadn't been out in public on my own and sometimes just a smile or whatever it can really just make you like so I just really appreciated it it was like that's so nice yeah she was probably like that was intense from her I was like what I'm really good to share that

but yeah it's just really nice so thank you if you're still listening a big thank you to that girl I feel like her name's Angela I don't know just came to me or Claire oh I don't know it just came to me um it's probably not it's probably definitely not

I mean one of the charms if it isn't that's fucking weird Did you plant her to make me feel better on my first day while myself? Yes. Antenla, I'll give you a way to test my psychic abilities. Nice. Okay, well, today's podcast, we've talked for too long again. We've talked for way too long for fuck sake.

It's almost half an hour. What is wrong with us? So today on the podcast, I'm so excited by this episode, and I'm really grateful that we got to do it. This is my friend, Ali, Gill, who is a chef. Oh my God, actually we talked about it before. like he just yeah chefing we need to eat his food um anyway that just reminded me oh god so hard me just thinking about it anyway um he's a chef and uh a writer and he is also a recovered alcoholic

and we talked about his recovery we spoke about uh his journey to recovery about about about rehab about life sober um and it was just like in a really lovely and amazing conversation and i'm really grateful that we got to have it yeah it was it was so cool that he came in and he was so uh Like he was a total open book, wasn't it? He was literally like, asked me anything. And we did. I feel like at some points I was like, am I pushing this too far? But it was a really fascinating conversation.

And I enjoyed it all until the very end when he left. And I tried to kiss him. This is the person, if you listen to episodes pre-baby, that Al tried to snog on the way out. I think it was my awkward one week, was it? Yeah, it must have been my awkward. So it's now a restraining order. and we've legally thought

to have this episode ahead because he wants nothing to do with us which is fair enough I get it it's so weird as well because he's not been answering the door either and I just don't get it like you've been there

just shitting and sicking all over his torso and he's just was absolutely weirdest thing Ali oh my god I hope he doesn't listen to this it's so fucking weird he's definitely good at

listen to this. Yeah, well, I'm so sorry about the potential kiss that I tried to make happen. And for shooting on the doorstep. That wasn't great either. I'm not sure which was worse. Enjoy the interview.

We'll see you on Thursday. Enjoy. Bye. Allie, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you for having me. Thanks. So we haven't had a man in a while. We haven't actually, no.

Wishes have come true. Here I am. so there's so much we want to talk to you about but I'm going to give some context I've known you for like I'm trying to work it out this morning since the seventh Harry Potter book came out yes I remember that I remember it so clearly that is such a weird reference I've known you since the seventh Harry Potter book came out but these guys came to the Isle of Man with their dad Ali and his sister came with their dad to come today with my family in the Isle of Man and it was my birthday because that's when the Harry Potter book

came out and we queued. We went to W.8 Smith in Douglas at midnight and we queued for the seventh harry potter book. I remember your brother putting sharpies all over his face with the big glasses and the lightning bolt. And the second we turned up to see the queue, he suddenly thought, what the fuck have I done? That's so thin. Just hiding behind everyone going, shit, I'm that guy. Not as funny as I thought it was. And then your sister read the whole book. in like a day and I just looked up

what happened and I think might have leaked it might have leaked it to the gang I remember I think your mum said that's awful

you can't do that it's like telling a child that Sander Claus doesn't exist and so I went oh well I've got another spoiler for you oh so fun

so that's yeah I mean like when was that 2000 and I don't know I've known you for like coming on two decades yeah and our dads

were very good friends and you recently He wrote an article in Tatler, which I read, and it was amazing for lots of reasons. Most notably, having known your dad reading it, it was like reading him again, which was just amazing. But you shared your story of getting clean and sober, and your dad's involvement in that. For anybody that doesn't know, your dad was A.A. girl, who is a very famous food critic and journalist.

and a lovely human being and he was also an alcoholic and he wrote a brilliant book called Poor Me, Life which was about his alcoholism and his getting clean and sober and it was amazing and you read it when you were in rehab in a rehab

and you got this guidance from your dad from beyond the grave and you wrote about it so beautifully and I'm really grateful that you came to talk to us about it because yeah I just as a friend I'm so interested in it but I just think as well as like the journey that you've been on is just kind of beautiful in a way so we'd love to talk to you about it if you wouldn't mind yeah well so beautifully put thank you so much yeah yeah it's been a remarkable journey

it's uh you know I think for a lot of uh people in their in their addicts in their program to get um it just takes one share really for it to click and to understand oh these people are are actually like me, maybe these people are as broken as I am, and maybe there is a chance for a new life because I can see something else that I identify with. And it just so happened that mine sort of happened to be my dead dad. Because you never knew your dad when he was drunk. No, no, no, no. And he always said that was one of his greatest achievements and like joy, it was that your family never knew him as a drunk. Yeah. Which I guess must have been really weird for you reading that book?

Totally. And seeing a different... Yeah, completely. Because it was, I suppose, you know, I had always completely disassociated what he had been through to be anything similar to what I was going through. Because you don't see it. You know, there's also, I suppose, a bit of a danger in that in many ways

because you only see really the alcoholics and addicts who kind of made it. You know, you don't see all the people we lost along the way. but yeah so to read his story and it just literally could have been it was describing everything I was feeling and it was remarkably I don't even know the words you know it was just yeah trying to think of it I can't it's so unique like it this situation I don't I mean in lots of ways in in i you said in the the tatler thing that alcoholism is genetic or could be genetic yeah um so i suppose in lots of ways the situation probably isn't unique but i think you know for a lot of maybe children of addicts it's something that they will be confronted with at some

point yeah i guess the scale that you've done it on yeah it's it's um it's interesting a lot of people are very conflicted about that you know about what what makes an addicts, you know, it can, and I think there are variables that can make one, trauma can for sure trigger that kind of stuff. But for me, you know, I can only talk on behalf of myself. I don't speak on behalf of addicts or any program, but for me, it's very clear that I was born one, you know, because the traits that make me one have always been there. I've always been on a completely different path to everybody else. And although, you know, my first drinks probably didn't look different to everyone else around me,

there were something else different. It was something, it triggered something else different in me. Really? Yeah. And from, you know, early days on, in my early teenage years, even though I wasn't doing it every day, it was for sure what I was thinking about every day. And I couldn't understand why everyone else

didn't want to do it all the time after unlocking it. Right. And, you know, I think there was never that thought process of drugs and alcohol. I've got to be careful. that. It was much more, there's something that can make me feel different. What is that? I've got to get my hands on that. And I think that's a big show, even at that age, a discomfort I had in my own skin. You know, I was addicted to it before I even tried it. Yeah. It's funny because when you

when you were talking about the hereditary nature of alcoholism or addiction, I was thinking what you were saying is like, you know, there's a genetic susceptibility. But what you're describing actually sounds like a lot stronger than a predisposition. It sounds like something bigger than that. Is that how it? Yeah, I think, I think, again, like I said, there's a lot of conflict around it. But if you look at the stats of it being passed down, it's sort of undeniable. You know, it runs in families. Yeah. But yeah, like I see, yeah, I think there's a lot of different things that can trigger people to go off the rails. But for me, it was, you know, I was born an addict. I am an addict and I always will be.

Yeah. Yeah, I have to carry on saying that I am an addict. And people sometimes get quite taken back by that. You know, you were an alcoholic. No, because if I say I was, that means, that implies I could pick up a drink now and I'd be fine when I wouldn't. We can test it if you want. No, I do not want that on my conscience.

You've got insurance. Honestly, in so much trouble with everyone. With, with the early, like the early drinks that you had, like how, like how, I don't know, what, what was your teen drinking like like, I mean, because I was trying to think, I was like, I think I had quite a unique exposure to alcohol. And I don't know why, but then I don't know, does everybody, it's really weird. You don't talk about it as an adult, about how everybody else drunk as a teenager and everybody else is like, kind of enjoyment of it or fear of it or feelings around it but like were you ever aware at any point that it was just like weird or different? Yeah I think you're probably yeah I think I probably did know I was different but in the sense of like you just said you know you're not an addict but there was a time where you were drinking sure like all teenagers were so I guess you can kind of camouflage in that it's not obvious

You know, it's the teenager, you know, getting fucked up all the time. Yeah. It's nothing new. But it was taking form in other ways in the sense of, you know, I wasn't, I couldn't sit down and do, you know, any work or anything that I was supposed to be doing. It was, I couldn't understand why everyone wasn't just pissed all the time. I still can't really, you know. It confuses me. Because you enjoyed the feeling, like, so much.

Was it just ultimate escapism? Yeah. But yeah, I suppose it is, in a sense, it's, and it's obsession, you know. Yeah. And it was something that I could get gratification out of instantly, because I didn't have that in anything else. You know, I couldn't, I didn't get stimulated by working and having drive and, you know, getting a reward system in that sense.

There's something else I can take that will make me feel good. And then ultimately, yeah, I guess I took it from a young age, thinking it was liberating me in some way. But ultimately it put me in chains from it. Because you didn't do great at school. No. Thanks for that. Words in your mouth. You did really die it school.

That's really polite. Yeah, cheers. To go again. It affected your school. It affected your education. Yeah, big time. But, you know, it's kind of like what part of that would have, you know, I got kicked out of every school I went to for drug tests. They were really a big thing when I was growing up. My school did a lot of drugs tests. Did I? Yeah. Really? Seriously. I probably wouldn't

have lasted long there. No. No. Were they a coincidental blood test, a drug test? No. I mean, I was just walking around completely dope-eyed all the time. I think, yeah. It got I think they got suspicious, yeah. So who keeps eating all the Cheetos? So how quickly did you move, like, graduate from alcohol to drugs? They went pretty hand in hand. I think they started around the same time. Oh, really?

Yeah. I started experimenting 12, 13. Yeah. I think, yeah. Yeah, that is unusual, I think. Yeah. Do you think? Yeah.

But, yeah, it's a weird one because it's, you then sort of naturally surround yourself with other people who are kind of doing that that's sort of what I meant before it's like you don't know if your experience is different because the people you experienced it with are your people so and they share your experience you very rarely talk to other adults about what they did as teenagers to know if what you were doing was the same yeah it's a good yeah it's a very good point how do you compare you know it took me it was it was kind of mind-blowing to kind of understand that it's not unusual for people to start, like, trying their first split at uni.

I was just like, what? Did you know that your dad was an alcoholic? Yeah. He said that he managed to keep it from you. Yeah, no, no, no, he was very open about it. And, you know, I understand that now because it's really at the centre of my recovery is honesty. You've got to be honest.

And, you know, that's really what kills in addiction. is you're covering up, you're lying, you're convincing yourself and everybody else around you that you're fine. You know, it took me 27 years to understand saying, I'm not okay, was even an option. Whenever I asked, it's, yeah, yeah, I'm fine, I'm fine, this is fine. Someone would dig a deep further, dig a bit,

dig a bit further, you could, you know, really get good at talking your way out of it. You're always making up lies, like even like, if I'd show up to, I don't know, a lunch and I was obviously pissed and someone might say, oh, why you drunk? I'd always make up something and like, oh, well, I just saw an old friend, you know, and we decided to get an early pint for a laugh when the truth is, I'd just woken up and I needed a drink.

Do you think your dad saw that? I don't know. I can't speak on behalf of it. You know, I was, I wasn't very, my parents are incredibly loving and I owe the world to them, but I wasn't very present in anyone's lives. I was, I could get up to my own stuff. And, you know, that's also, I suppose, a bit of a sorrow in my life that, you know, I wasn't that present with dad towards the last few years just because I was off doing my own thing.

And, you know, I didn't, I wanted to isolate. So, yeah, I could, I don't think people saw a lot to question because I self-isolated quite a lot. You know, I was a very implosive addict as opposed to explosive. Yeah, because you didn't, you kind of, I guess that was, you got, you went to rehab when you were 27, but that was like 15 years of, because, and you weren't, you could, I guess, like,

live like that because you didn't have like kids and the friends that you create the life that you curate for yourself was and was that what your 20s was like was it like were you surrounded by people that were doing this with you yes and no I mean those are the only people I would see if I did go to see them but you know towards the end for a few years I I just shut off. I didn't want to see anyone. I had friends who would get fucked up a lot, but they also kind of enjoyed the going out and getting fucked. I didn't want the going out part. I could do everything I wanted and everything I thought I needed from home. Yeah, from home. And yeah, it was also, you know, a lot of shame. I didn't want to go out because I really had it in my

head the shame people must feel to be associated with me at a party. I knew I was that guy. If I went out, I tried to talk to someone, you couldn't understand what I was saying. I was that kind of slurry, kind of all over the place. So I just didn't want to see anyone. That's so isolating. And I'm not saying that like it's better to be the type of alcoholic that like wants to go out and get fucked up and have a good time out. But that just strikes me as so isolating. Yeah, yeah. And you know, in a way, I'm very glad I wasn't that. alcoholic because in our program step eight and nine is make amends and you've got to go out and say sorry to everyone and yeah you've got knock on those doors and say look that was me taking a shit on your doorstep last year

I'm really sorry so my list isn't that big hopefully okay that's one positive stuff that's good exactly the little things you know did you know that you were an alcoholic and an addict on a conscious level did you know that Yes, but I would never have put that label on it. No. So, you know, did I need drugs and booze every day? Yeah, of course I did. And that was actually, I would be tricky not to, I'll be careful not to romanticise it.

But it was, yeah, that was my only worry for the day. Am I going to have enough substance to get through? So, but I would, you know, I knew about, you know, alcoholics anonymous and narcotics anonymous. But my, I would have thought, you know, that's not me. No one in there has my issues. No one in there is as broken as I am. But it turned out they all were, which was great. Really?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's all the. And that's where you really need those rooms as an addict because no one else is really going to understand. I think, and people want to understand. And they want to put you in a box that makes sense to them.

And, you know, you have amazing people in my life who are very supportive, but you'll never fully grasp it. And it works with all mental disorders or disease. You know, people who have been drunk before think they might know what it's like to be an alcoholic. People who have been sad think they might know what it's like to be depressed. Even with eating people who struggle with weight

might think they know what it's like to have an eating disorder. And that's where it can get dangerous. Because then they can start having opinions about it that are false. Like, it's not a real disease. When anything that makes you piss the bed, throw up and end up in hospital is a disease. Did anybody confront you? I think you mentioned in there,

because eventually the thing that took you to rehab was a doctor and a clinical diagnosis. And it wasn't really a negotiation because your health was bad. breaking point, yeah. Bad. Bad. Good vocab. Your help is bad. Rubbish. Sorry, crack. Really crap help out. What are you going to do? Sorry, you had crap health and a clinical diagnosis of alcoholism and drug addiction. But before that, had anybody said to you, you have a problem and you have to get help? Yeah, a bit. But, you know, it's, I don't really surround myself with those people. people. And it's almost like you're doing it on autopilot. You're working, you hear a lot

about addiction having its own sort of conscious within addicts. And again, it's a conflicting thing that people believe, but it really clicks with me because mine's still with me. And it's you know, cunning and it wants to get me by myself. And, you know, it's that thought process of, oh, something goes shit, oh, but maybe, maybe you could do this. Maybe, maybe we'd be all right with a drink. And it's bizarre, this thing that is actually, you know, trying to fight you. And again, that's how I know it's always been there because I've always had that. Mm. Did you go to the doctors?

This is so noticing. Why did you go to the doctors? Tell me. But did you go to the doctors for an alcohol-related problem? Yeah, I had I think I had a pretty big breakdown. It was the first time I kind of said, I'm just not well. I don't know what's wrong with me. And I had also got quite physically sick.

I couldn't really keep my booze down. Really? Which turned out to be early stage cirrhosis in my liver. Amongst many other things, scarring in my bladder and stuff in my blood, all from around drinking drugs. And when I went to the doctor and she told me this after the blood test, I remember she said, do you really want to be drinking and doing drugs? And I remember it really confused me. I didn't really understand what she was asking me.

Do I want to be doing it? I don't know. This is, this is what I need. And then after she told me about my early stage cirrhosis, I almost got, it's like giddiness came up over me because my thought process then was, well, what drugs can you give me for that? You know, it was another thing of,

I can get something out of this. and it's just so weird looking back on it now and just how oblivious you are to not putting those dots together and then you know she said I'm going to book you into rehab unless you object and that was probably the most and biggest moment of my life really yeah you know I think it was I think it's quite unconventional for doctors to say that as well

is it yeah I'm going to book you into rehab yeah and yeah It was the beginning of the rest of my life And you didn't like verbally object But was your whole body screaming Yeah you know it's again that voice I go no fuck this Let's go to the pub

Yeah Yeah So yeah thank God I did Thank God I didn't object Before you went to rehab What year was that This was 2020 So that was four years after your dad died

Yeah And we don't have to talk about this at all. That's all right. But I mean, it's the worst loss in the world. And did that compound the isolation and the drinking? When he died? Yeah. Yeah. It definitely put it into a new category. It put me into a new category of, I suppose, really thinking I had reason behind what I was doing and that no one had the right to tell me different and they didn't really no you know you don't understand what I'm going through um I this is this is this is my life this is how I'm dealing with it yes you're great and but I wasn't dealing with it I was pushing it

way down um and yeah you know people sometimes ask me if you know they've lost a loved one have you got any advice like no I do not have any advice In fact, can you give me some? Yeah, I suppose that's the worst thing for, it's such a cruel, I think you described it as a cage, but it's that you've created for your life, this isolation and then the worst happens, and then you can just sit further isolated by what's happened.

Yeah. And what's happening. Exactly. And just, you know, just drowning it. We're totally drowned in it. And it was just self-medicating. and you know I just I'd given up

totally given up but then you know it's hard it's hard to I don't know whether I'd say I'd given up or you know it's even like now I don't know if I would say I've got my life back I've got a life

I don't I never had one before I was never in that situation where I've got something back I fell and now I've got it back it's always been there and this was the moment where I've just entered the game of life, I feel. So you're making something new now?

Yeah, it's just like beginning life. It really is. And before we talk about you, your life now, you're smashing it. Like you're cooking. Like, my vegan ass, every time I only put something on Instagram, I'm like, I can eat that. And it's like bread beef.

You're vegan? Yeah. No. Yeah. Why are you telling me? I wouldn't have come on. I know. I was going to ask him to bring something to eat.

And then I was like, I have to tell him I'm vegan. Really? Yeah. Wow. No, mad. Yes, we spun around there, but you are cooking now. I'm cooking, yeah. I'm smashing it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it looks, I mean, obviously, social media is a lot, but it looks happy. It is, it's a great, it's a great gig. Yeah, I love it, you know, because that was always the other thing, you know. My, growing up, that was, the kitchens took me in as, you know, when I was like 18, 19. And I could, uh, they're a weird one, kitchens, because they often, attract a certain type of nomads, you know, when you leave with no, I had no qualifications, nowhere else to work, the kitchen will take you in. And I would always have little brief stints

of, oh, this is, you know, my life looking like it's better again. But I can never hold down a job for more than a couple of months. And it was only, it only worked because it was a job that was almost quite accepting of being an addict. There does seem to like a, uh, reputation around chefs and drugs, there's like a, there's a, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, so for two reasons, the one I just said now of, you know, it will take you in no matter what you're, yeah, it's quite an easy job to get, a hard job to climb. Yeah. So, and then the other side of it is just the stress. Yeah. The stress of and it just unholy hours. That's where you've got no life. And you're, yeah, it's also a very isolating job. You know, you're not, you're not really

part of the restaurant. No. You're kind of hidden away. And you're not under the orders of management of the restaurant, really. You're just under your head chef. And usually he's one of you. The captain. Sorry, um, careful.

But did you watch Boiling Point? Yes. You've seen it? Oh my God. I didn't breathe for the entire time. It was good, except for the ending. Didn't like it. The ending ruined it.

It only just didn't need it. Did he die? Oh, yeah. I couldn't work it out. It's like a big spoiler book of it. I couldn't work out. I was like, oh, we're just waiting for a season two. Yeah.

But oh my God, I was all done in one take as well. I know. It's crazy. I know. It's amazing that. I love the KP as well, the French KP. And he goes out to pick up, isn't it? He's so good.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. But that just reminded when you said about the, like, the stress, it looks like an incredibly strong. stressful. I've actually just found the worst job for you and it would be a chef. Absolutely not.

Oh, come here. Yeah, let's do a shift. Oh my God. We'll do that. Yeah. I asked to boil a whole load of broad beans the other day and she came back in such a state and she was like, how? No, I was just like, I need specifics.

Like how long? How much water did I wash them first? You can't just give me a packet and be like, off you go. Yeah, you can't do that. More for me. I can't. I'm not. Come on.

I was like, oh, for fuck sake. Oh, that's great. Yeah, that's going to be, please. Yeah, please. Let's do that. Not everyone else apart from me. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

I'd be up for that. Back to you. You went to rehab when you were, when you didn't object. You went. You described the train journey going to rehab with your mom and your sister. And about how your dad had also. just told you about the train journey that he'd been on, on his way to rehab, which did sound like a bit of a romanticisation of...

Totally, wasn't it? Yeah. Having the champagne. Yeah, two bottles. I was going to Wiltshire. Yeah. And I was going to Scotland. And yeah, it was just, it was like, it was like someone was playing a prank on me.

But there was no booze available. On the train? Really. Was it... Who does that? Yeah. When you were without alcohol, at that point before you went to rehab.

What did it feel like? Was it like a physical pain or like a mental pain? Without alcohol on the train? Yeah, for example, yeah, because you're having alcohol so, like, you know, it sounds like everything is all waking hours. Yeah, in a sense, it was my first, you know, few hours of, I need a drink, where is it? Yeah.

And it's like, oh, but I'm in this situation where I'm going to rehab. I forgot about that. but I was on a few other things I think really yeah but yeah it was it was it was incredibly it was an incredibly emotional train ride even though I was sort of just numbly looking out the window I didn't really want to talk to my mother or sister

and they kept checking in so sweetly but there was just I was just thinking about dad really yeah because it was also I got plucked that memory that I didn't even really know I had of him telling me about his train journey. It wasn't something that I thought about. This is something I remembered. He would say him and my granddad

shared their last bottle of champagne all the way. Hazzar. Yeah. The Cuban cigars. Well, that's her art. You wrote something. I'm going to butcher it now, but you said that you'd trade.

in all of the special moments with him just to have a few, just to speak to him for a few words at that point. That made me cry. It was so, yeah, so emotional. I can just, like, imagine you just there, like, feeling so broken and lost. And I guess, like, he must have felt like the only person he would really understand. Yeah, exactly. Exactly how you felt in that moment.

Like, he would be able to completely relate to what, whereas no one else, It felt like because you hadn't met people, you hadn't been to rehab yet and met other alcoholics and addicts, probably felt like you were just isolated from everyone else. Totally. And it was sort of that thing of, it felt like if there was ever a moment, he should have been there to give me anything. Yeah. It was then. Yeah. But he did, which was amazing with his book.

So yeah, that was magical and life-saving. It must have been really comforting. to know that he's you could do it because he did it I guess exactly it was that show of you know I'd read the story that was like mine and and you know and the the end result was I got through it so that was just the yeah you know huge visual of maybe maybe that was the first sort of step of maybe I could do this maybe this is possible you know because it was never my intention my entire life from the age of, well probably from the age of 13, maybe a bit later. Something that I thought I knew was sobriety was never on the cards for me, you know.

So once I got that first couple months out of rehab, it was like, I was on a complete pink cloud, as they call. I couldn't believe it. And actually it almost got a bit dangerous after that because I got, I thought, I thought I'd got this, you know. I didn't think that, or maybe I don't need to go to the program, I don't need to do the meetings. So I started doing something, what we call doing, being a dry drunk or white knuckling it. And that almost got just as painful as drinking. What were you doing then? Well, I just wasn't going, I just wasn't working my program or going to a meeting.

I was sober. and what you realize through that is actually drinking and drug abuse is just the tip of the iceberg of what it is to be an addict and doing the program and the work on yourself and sharing with people is what allows you to find a life worth living as opposed to just existing you know to better yourself to understand what you're holding. on to what resentments, what's making you take, to make amendments, to help others. I love the saying, you know, we can only keep what we have by giving it away. And that's, you know, really true in meetings.

To keep my own sobriety, I need to give it to others who need it. Yeah. You talked in that article about the first, like, group session that you had and the person next to you had said how they were feeling. feeling and then you were asked how you were feeling and you said you were feeling okay and the counsellor said that okay wasn't a feeling which that annoyed me I could yeah obviously it's such an annoying thing to say but it's so true right and like I guess what I don't know it's such a like deep question but did what was it like learning how you were feeling because

I feel like you know I'll tell you once I figured it out do you recognize your feelings now, I guess, is what I mean. Yeah, I try to completely, you know, trying to, but that's also just the hardest thing in sobriety is being able to sit with hard emotions because that's really also one of the big centre points of what makes an addict drink. An uncomfortable feeling, nope, I need something, you know. So when tough things have happened while I've been sober, my first initial reaction is always like, how the fuck can anyone do this sober?

you know what I mean but it always flips to actually how can anyone do this and not have a program not have people to check in on so yeah that that realisation always comes

and that's amazing I don't need substance to deal with hard feelings anymore that must feel amazing to continue to experience that Mm-hmm. Exactly. You said before about you, you know, a few months in and you felt like I've got this and you kind of went down the like dry drunk, white knuckling it.

Do you, I mean now, so you're three years into being sober? I'll be three years in July. Three years in July. It's a while away, but it's better to always say, oh, BS. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Do you still worry, do you think there will always be a worry of slipping into complacency?

Yeah, absolutely. You know, I think, I think it's, I'm in trouble if I ever start thinking I'm not a newcomer anymore. Yeah. And that's also, you know, a big danger with pride and ego. You know, I remember my, well, a therapist at rehab gave me home. homework on doing pride and it got me so angry and try talking your way out of not needing pride homework it's impossible because but I just didn't think I just thought it was so irrelevant because you know I knew I was really ashamed I thought that was my thing you know I didn't would you're talking about pride but it's a weird one shame because it kind of goes hand in

hand with pride and ego you know why didn't I want to go out to be seen by people of what they might think of me. So pride plays a huge role in that. And that's why, you know, believing in a higher power is such a big point of the program. Because really, it's not, you know, it's not religious at all. It's about admitting that you're not the most powerful thing, which still no addict wants to do. It's funny. Every time at the beginning of someone's journey, usually, me included, you'll just think that you're so much better than the program. You'll be waking up on the street in a puddle of piss, choking on blood, and you'll still think, oh, well, I'm not part of those freaks.

Yeah, those are the guys who've got the real problem. Sort your lives out, guys. I'm thriving. Yeah. Look at me. You're grim, all of you. There are different schools of thought, though, aren't there, with recovery? I'm by no means an expert on this, but I've read a few.

things like, you know, people that say, there are two camps, right? One says that you will be an addict for the rest of your life and the other says that you have control over your addiction as a book. What's the book called Recovery? Alcoholics Anonymous. No, it's called Recovery Something. And then Russell Brand sort of made a, he kind of rehashed it for his own book. Clever. I had, yeah, well. Profiting off the program. Yeah, but it wasn't the, it was like a, it was like a kind of like a rebuttal to Alcoholics Anonymous and it was, you know, to the program and it was, it was like, you know,

you have the power, only you have the power. Basically, I had an eating disorder and I went down that road of thinking that I had complete, I wanted to have complete power over my eating disorder. So I, this is a long time ago now, but I read that book. I read Russell Brand's book and then I ended up reading this like brain over binge book, which was more specific to eating disorders. Interestingly, that outlook didn't help me in thinking, you know, and I was convinced that it would.

That you were powerless. The thinking that I had all the power, I thought that was what was ultimately going to get me out of an eating disorder, but interestingly it didn't. And it actually just made me, well, kind of fail, like I feel like I was just failing again and again and again and thinking, but I've got the power, like what's happening? Well, it's dangerous.

I think if you go down to the school of thought that you do have the power it implies that you can manage it when for me it was managing the unmanageable you know i i was to i am powerless over it except now that i've become well equipped enough the only power i have is whether to have that first drink or not anything past that i'm a i'm just a passenger i'm totally powerless yeah i mean my heart goes out to the eating disorders as well I think it's the toughest one because I can give up drinking drugs you can't drink

you can't give up food it'd be like someone telling me you've got to have three drinks every day never any more or less yeah yeah I mean I guess the tricky thing is like drugs alter brain chemistry don't they like they mess with the brain chemistry which is difficult there's like a physiological addiction

I mean none of fun you wouldn't really want anyone nobody wins No, no, no, no. It's not a fun competition. But it's just interesting to like, I, like, I'm interested to hear people's different takes on that and takes on recovery. And I think it's similar with eating disorders. Like, people will say, like, I will have an eating disorder for the rest of my life. Yeah. And it's just something that I have to manage day by day. I think that. I think it's probably where I stand as well. Yeah. I don't actively say that or actively think that. But I think so. Yeah. I think there will always be. I think we've talked about it before, like my therapist always says it's like when you break your knee. Yeah. And then the bone will heal, but that bone will always be a little bit sore and it'll never be quite the same as it was before it was broken. And it'll, if you're tired or you walk too much, it'll get sore.

And I think it's like that. But it's also, I suppose, do you believe that you'd ever be to the point of a civilian, of what a normal person thinks about food? you know and if not then yes you are you are part of that category because it's something that needs work on every day to be on top of it where actually you know that's a huge part of addiction as well as well you know it's understanding what normal is yeah I remember someone in rehab he was just in such denial about it all

and he was saying you know I don't belong here there are times you know I only had one drink and the therapist turned and went only an alcoholic remembers the time he only had one drink. Because that's totally normal thing to do. Yeah. Yeah. Does it ever overwhelm you to think that this will be something that you have to work at, continue to work at for the rest of your life? Or have you made peace with that? No, I feel very lucky. Yeah. I do. I feel, you know, if you were a betting man three years ago, you would not have bet that I'd be here. So everything past this point is just a onus for me. And you know, I'd much rather be an addicts on this side of the fence than not an

addict at all. Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, it's an amazing thing to be a part of that I've got rooms all over the world that I can walk into and not only do they understand me, but they're rooting for me. Very few people have that and it's, you know, it's an amazing sort of celebration that we're all still here. So, yeah. You describe yourself as an addict and you will always be an addict and you had this predisposition to addiction your dad after he stopped drinking and doing drugs started buying lots of suits did you have you bought have you found an addiction that isn't no suit um but did you have you found anything else that your addictive personality leans towards yeah all the time you've got it's something you've got to be careful of you know everything is

different. There's no one who's really, in my opinion, who is an alcoholic, but I'm totally okay with gambling. You know, it's everything has to, it has to be treated differently. And it gets to gambling, shopping, sex, love, everything. And yeah, it's down to also obsession. Yeah. Is that something you can take into meetings now? As you have dealt with your you don't have to answer this but as you've dealt with your the two sort of like active addictions that were that had such a hold on your life if you feel something creeping into your life in another way now

is that something that you can take like yeah totally and there's also there's there's so many different rooms for all sorts of stuff yeah yeah co-dependency yeah but yeah it's all about just being honest and I don't always succeed in doing that but the real two things that are most in my power is be honest and turn up

and so that I try to get that just on autopilot within me and yeah again you know I don't always succeed at it but it's the two things that I really try and hold dear I don't know if this is like too dark or like I'm being too like But have you, since rehab, have you got close to picking up a drink, to having a drink? It's really hard to know. Yeah. Because I don't know, you know, you fantasize and almost in a comical way quite a lot with myself.

I do with myself. But it's hard to know how close I am. But I don't think so. I'd like to say I don't think so. because, you know, I feel very lucky to have been such an extreme side of an addict that I know, I can't go back there. It's very clear to me. If I fall, I probably won't come back.

And, you know, they say, yeah, there's two types of addict or alcoholic, which is the topper-upper and the binge drinker. I was just an avid topper-upper-upper, which means I was always drunk. but the binge drinker can hold down a life and, you know, say to themselves, well, I haven't drunk in a week, you know, I'm fine, but then completely lose their shit on Saturday. And it's very dangerous.

I always think the binge drink is much more dangerous because you've got justifications in your life to know, oh, and those are the people I always see come in and out of the rooms. Really? Yeah, because they're like, oh, I'm fine. No, I'm not. Oh, but I can do this. No, I'm not.

And it's just like, give up, give up the fight. Let go. You do seem as happy now as I've ever, I didn't know you very well through. More than queuing up for Harry Potter. Yeah. Which I couldn't read. This is as happy.

He's happier than he was in Harry Potter. That is something, isn't it? You do seem so well and so happy. And I know I'm watching social media, but talking to you and just, I don't know, like, you just seem really well. and really happy, and it's lovely. Thank you. You too. I am. So you're a full-time chef now?

Yeah. Well, I do, so I do private catering for... Amazing. Do you ever do vegan food? Yeah, absolutely. Oh my God, do you actually? Of course. Oh, God, sold. Okay. Before we go, I just wanted to finish something,

read something from your dad's book, if you don't mind. Of course. And it's only because you sat opposite me with your sleeves rolled up this whole time. Oh, I know. I saw that today. But your dad said, as the finisher to his book, okay, that really is the end of the smugness, and that wasn't what I'm proud of. I'm proud that none of my children nor either of their mothers ever had to deal with me being drunk or out of it. The constant fear is that this is a hereditary condition that I might

pass on the faulty gene, the receptor that doesn't have an off switch. But at least I won't compare the inheritance with learnt behaviour, not both nurture and nature. Three of them have got varying degrees of dyslexia, and they have me to thank for that. And I have made three unbreakable family rules. No tattoos, no motorbikes and no heroin. The heroin is negotiable. I know what to do about heroin. Yeah, he always used to bring up those three to Isaac as well. He went, you can't break all three like your brother had. It's a lot of tattoos. It's a lot of tattoos. I get one every time I'm having a crisis, so I'm running out of skin. Oh my God, I'd love that. I'd be so covered. I would be head to toe. Oh, I'd love that. You'd have to start with little like dots, I think.

So, yeah, like pricks. Yeah, yeah, one big prick eventually. Yeah, me too. Thank you so much for coming on. Thanks for having me. It's been a pleasure. What's your company called? We'll put it in the show notes for everyone.

I want to check it out. Yeah, Gordon and Gill. Gordon and Gil. Gordon and Gil. Thank you so much. Thanks, guys. Take care. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.