Should I Delete That? - Alex’s IVF Journey

Episode Date: December 16, 2024

Today, we’re going to talk about Alex’s IVF story. After watching the new Netflix film JOY - Al was inspired to speak about her journey to having IVF, after having felt like it wasn’t something she was able to discuss online. We go through the entire journey that has led to Tommy being with us here today - and we hope this conversation is helpful for anyone else who is experiencing something similar or who might not understand the complexity of IVF - and how amazing that it is that science enables us to do this.JOY - The Birth of IVFHERTILITY: At home hormone and fertility testsLAURA ADLINGTON ON SIDT: Bake off and body acceptanceTHE INFERTILE MIDWIFE ON SIDTEMMA THE EMBRYOLOGIST ON SIDT: Demystifying FertilityED JACKSON KERRI NORTHCOTT: Life with Ivy Coco GLASS BY MICHELLE ANDREWSGAIA FAMILYEmail us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That? is produced by Faye Lawrence Music by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's just so special what we were able to do and that like without all of those people and that all of this, like we wouldn't have Tommy. Hello, welcome back to Should I Delete that and Mike's Light. I'm in Clarkson. GBA's back. We're together. Yes.

It's been a blur, hasn't it? It has. It's been a... Guys, please. We're sorry for the English. inconsistencies in routine right now in formatting of the podcast. But we are just, we're working through a big chunk of work for January and February. Well, we've done it. And we've, we've actually done it. And we've got, okay, I'll start with a good. Okay. Um, this is it. I've done it. I've got

to the end. Oh my God. This is last day of film. This is, yeah, this is our last day. I mean, I, yeah, I just. We've taken, we've taken you pretty much down to the wire here. As we knew we would and it's all done and I'm so proud of us and I've got to the end of my pregnancy really and it's like a final few days yeah and it's nuts it's like the end of term I've got the end of term feeling I'm all giddy there isn't much yeah there isn't much time left between now and giving birth no have I've had my husband or bag I feel like that's how you like it yeah 100% yeah I feel like you kind of just work to a deadline we're quite similar I agree we've also got Alex's best friend living with us at the moment like I've got the house in chaos

Excellent. It's just, there's nothing about the situation that screams already. Everything will come together. Yeah, yeah. It's fine. Well, that's my good too. Is it? Yeah.

And part good is that we have wrapped up. I mean, I say wrapped up. Producer Faye's in the corner like, fuck you. Because she has not wrapped up. She's got all the wrapping to do. She's got all the wrapping to do. We've given her a lot of wrapping to do it. We've given her a big pile of shit and she's got to make something from it, make presents from it.

Guys, we've interviewed so. many people. If you don't know what we're talking about, in January, we have a new series coming out. So I will be taking January and February off. And we didn't want to just do what we've done in the past where it's like the other one has to do all the work and man the four. And, you know, it's not what the format that you guys are used to. It's not necessarily what people like. So we thought, let's try something new and different. And we've basically created this huge series, which we think is going to be eight parts. Could be 10. Could be anything

Is there anyone's guest? But we've written... Phelix just like despondent in the corner She's just like hopeless and sad And so we've got the Monday episodes Are the big episodes And then as part of the format We're going to have Thursday episodes

Being the whole interview Released as a sort of standalone thing With the expert that we had on for the week prior Which was never the intention No it wasn't it was only as we started interviewing These people that we were like oh god this is the cut down of this and what we're going to include just isn't enough we need the episode in its entirety the interview in its entirety so we've ended up giving you all the

interviews as well as the episodes and if you hate it then that's fine we'll be back with normal service in March but hopefully you won't and we're really this is like the proudest I've ever been of everything and anything we've done me too like dissertation included I didn't even do one of those so a hundred percent i've got like failed a levels to show for any dissertations some shoddy gtassy course i yeah i've got some ds somewhere and this has surpassed them so and today's episode's a special one not for you're i mean you're dreading it yeah no i'm droid today's episodes you're bad yeah i'm terrified do you want to tell the people what we're going to talk about i will we're talking about IVF and specifically

my story with IVF, my journey with IVF. I can't believe we're saying it on the point. We've talked around it. I mean, I feel like, we have said it. Yeah, we've kind of like, I've said it. It's not been like a secret. I've just never gone into it. Yeah.

Because I'm scared. I think that's the first thing we need to talk about is why you're scared to talk about, why you've been scared to talk about it. I want to preface this. And it's annoying, this preface is even annoying in itself, but I know it's boring to listen to someone. be like, oh, I'm scared to like trigger be, you know, and to just like list all the reasons

why they're anxious about doing something they're about to do. It's annoying. It's not annoying. It's really relevant and it's really important to the conversation. When I talked about egg freezing, it's such a complicated story. That's the thing I do. Yeah, we've got time, baby. Okay. We'll get to why I did egg freezing. But when I started talking about egg freezing on Instagram, I was like, this is a really cool thing to do. I had bad results. It's led to me now doing egg freezing and yes it's a huge privilege that I'm able to do this but it feels empowering and cool like I'm taking my like fertility and my future into my own hands and that's really cool and I want to talk about it and like encourage anyone maybe to not not do the same but at least like

maybe think about their fertility and like understand that it's not a given that we're just these fertile little things you know yeah um so that's why i started talking about it and then i mean you saw i think i showed you a lot of the backlash and it was and you know some of it i really i understood it was like this is an emotive triggering topic for people there is not much that's more emotional than having IVF trying to have a baby when it's something that you desperately want and being unable to do so it's such a brutal horrible journey and i think it just it just hit a nerve with a lot of people and I got a lot of feedback

that wasn't good and I was like I'm leaving it there I'm never talking about fertility again for my mental health I'm done what was the feet quote unquote feedback or backlash one that I'm privileged to be able to do any kind of fertility planning or to be able to invest in fertility

like it's ridiculously expensive it's like thousands and thousands and thousands of pounds, it's so expensive. So I know that that was a privilege. The second thing is that my route to IVF wasn't traditional, wasn't the conventional route in that I didn't find out about my fertility issues because of trying for ages and it not happening. And I guess that was triggering to a lot of people as well.

So I think those were the two things. And I think a lot of it even, some of the backlash didn't even really make sense. didn't really, like, touch anything. I think it was just triggering, which I get. I'd like to talk to you more about that and the reaction, like, and the reaction and how unfair that is, because I think that's a conversation you and I've had, like, off air, and I think it is important that we have it here as well, because it is a reason that a lot of people feel a lot of shame around IVF and it's not very fair.

But I think before we do that, we ought to explain why we're doing this episode now in the first place because, like, she's, she's been silent for you. bit random. Yeah, it is. Why, a year after your baby's first birthday. Oh my God, he's nearly one. I know. It's scary close to one.

So after those conversations online, I vowed, I was never going to talk about facility again. I was done. I was like, there's no way I can talk about it and not trigger people. And I can't take, I'm too sensitive to take the, like, people's, like, feelings off the back of it.

I can't. I'm too sensitive for it. So that's where we left it. And we kind of, we've said on the pocket, I think I've, like, people who listen to the podcast know that I had IV, but I've just never actually talked about it. And then I watched Joy on Netflix. Have you seen it? The film. I started it and then Alex was, he had ants in his pants and I was like, you're ruining this. I'm actually going to watch it on my own. So I'm halfway through it and I need to go home and start it again and watch it.

It's really, really lovely. It's like, it's a drama all about the history of IVF and how, like, relentlessly these scientists worked to make IVF a reality. also how all of the women that put themselves through all of the tests, all of the trials who put them forward for all of this, like they kind of, they like paved the way for this. And it was, you know, unsuccessful for like, mostly all of them. And I was watching it. And honestly, I've seen Dave cry in the seven years we've been together. I've seen him cry like twice. Once when Tommy was born, like he never cried. He just never cries. We watched this episode and then when the first IVF baby was born and they were holding her and I know and it was just it was so special and so magical and I just turned to Dave and he was just crying like tears flooding down

his face and I was like I've never I've never seen you like this and he was just like it's just so special what we were able to do and and that like without all of those people and that all all of this like we wouldn't have Tommy and sorry oh no it was just it really it was super emotional and it just hit me on him you know we're like then we spent like next hour looking through photos and videos of like Tommy like when he was born and just thinking back as well we just talk back about everything that happened with the, sorry, fine, with the IVF and everything. And I was just like, God, it's such a shame that it's such a, like it feels like something that I can't talk about when it's actually so amazing and incredible. And like how unbelievable that

science allows us to do this. Like this, it's so bizarre, like this, these little bits of science that allow us to have this beautiful little baby. Like, it's just incredible. I was like, fuck this. I'm going to talk about it. I'm going to make a post. I was looking back at all the photos of when we did the IVF and I was like, I'm making a post and I'm going to be so proud of it. And whatever comes of it, whatever comments come, you know, whatever people say at the back of it, like I will take it because I'm so proud that we did IVF and I'm so, you know, we're happy that we've got our little baby boy and that I'm so grateful to everyone who like came before us, you know, like way before us, all those people who went through all that

heartbreak and all that intense sciencey stuff. I don't know. It's like way out of my remit, but like all that stuff to be able to do it. So yeah, basically. I'm proud of you. And it's as your friend, it's always been really horrible. to see how invalidated you felt within your own journey because of the comments that came at the beginning. And like you didn't have a right to, why do I want to cry? But it has felt like you haven't had like a right to talking about it or to being proud of it or to owning it because people made you feel that way at the beginning. When actually the way and we need to talk about it, but the way that you came to it wasn't, there's no way that you come to needing

IVF in an easy there's no there's no like yeah yay you you've got to have IVF like it's not that's not the reality that wasn't your reality and okay it wasn't everybody else's but you were still justified to feel exactly how you wanted to within it but because because of how you got there you didn't and so maybe we should talk about that and what led it what led you to having it or to not finding out you needed it yes that's so complicated I mean you know how shit I am with dates and numbers and ages and stuff so I was been trying to work out timeline before today you know I remember the very first time we went out for lunch together you and I yeah I think it was like I think it was one of the first times we went out for lunch together

we went to dean street so house and we were sitting at the bar and you just had your you just had your utility results really and you didn't know whether or not you wanted children and you were oh my god oh my god that's crazy and you were 33 I think I was 33 yeah Yes, well remembered. Yeah, I distinctly remember the conversation because I remember thinking, Jesus. Fuck, that's a really tricky place to me.

I remember as I didn't know you that well. I was like, that sounds tough. Oh, shit. Okay, all right. So, okay, rewind. I always knew that I wanted children, but I've always been absolutely terrified of it. Absolutely terrified of it.

The thought of it just freak me out. The whole thing, like, you know me. I'm very much like, I have to be in control of everything at all times. Like, I'm a control freak, you know. I find change incredibly difficult. Like, it's one of the hardest things for me. And so I knew I wanted a family.

No, no, I always, like, correct myself for saying that because I had a family. I always knew I wanted a family with children. But I didn't, I was just so scared about what had to happen for that to happen. Just terrified. Like, I couldn't. I just couldn't. fathom it. Fairfax, babe. Yeah. Also, like, I was the eldest of five and the whole, my mom having all those kids,

like, was just traumatic. At least not traumatic in like the truest sense of the word, but like, it left me with some things to like figure out. And I was just like, oh my God, having kids is just horrendous. And it's like, it's so hard. You built a life that was very structured probably as a result of your very chaotic childhood. So the association of children for you was chaos. I haven't unpacked that in therapy, but you're bang on and I'm going to. That's exactly it. Okay.

The chaos was a lot and I was just like, oh my God, having kids just, it's just, it's like, it's a world that I can't control and it's just, anyway, but I knew I wanted it at some point, but I was obviously getting like further at past 30 and I was like, I'm going to do some fertility tests. So you can do an AMH test, which is basically, it tests your ovarian reserve. to see how many eggs you have left. So I did that and it's amazing this test. And like for anyone who wants to do it,

I totally recommend that you do it and it's really easy. You just prick your finger at home. A few drops of blood into a chest tube, you send it off and they come back with the results. I sent it off and they were like, yeah, we're gonna email you in a week. And then they emailed me in a week

to say the gynecologist is gonna ring you tomorrow with your results. So I was like, that's really weird. But fine. And then the gynecologist rang and was like, oh, you, you're, I'm not gonna say the number because it's just like, it was really, really low.

And it was far, far lower than my age, which was 33, like far lower. So I was like, shit. And I said to her, like, what does this mean? And she was like, you need to do something like ASAP, basically. You have to do something ASAP. She was really kind and like gentle about it, but she was like, if you want children,

you have to act now. I was like, fuck. And they had this like huge, like spiraled out and like had this huge panic attack that lasted weeks and weeks and I just didn't know what to do. And then I had this talk with Dave and he was like, let's do embryo freezing. And then it's peace of mind for you. We can then take care of your mental health. This was also at the time, and I was trying to come off antidepressants. And it was just not a good time. And I was like, I can't, I can't do this. I can't

get pregnant right now. It's not a possibility. So we went to, went for a consultation at the well the clinic where I did all of the treatment and she did an ultrasound no a transvaginal scan which is where they go up with the wand scan camera thingy yeah it's chunky yeah surprising how used to it you get there I just like run in drop my pants and like jump on the bed with my legs wide open as soon as I got in there like hi off you go she did the scan and she was like yeah the AMH results were right like you don't have much going on so I was like okay she was like we need to start straight like as soon as possible but your I had like assist and also like the timing wasn't right so from there I had to wait to start stimulating for like six months I think

all the while taking medication also oh my god sorry there's so much to do this but also didn't have a period either I wasn't getting a period and that was because of your because of the lower very reserve, apparently not. It doesn't make sense that it's not, but the consultant said, no, I don't know. It's still a mystery why I don't really have a period, but I didn't have one. I know, lol. Question mark. It's just done.

Move on. No periods, no problem. Who needs to know? Literally. It took me, I think, eight months for the first retrieval to be done, which in theory should take two weeks. So it was long and it was, I had to take all these different medications to try and get myself ready for retrieval and it was just really hard and I didn't get a great result

especially when you hear like I knew one girl that had done IVF before and I remember her being like they retrieved 26 eggs and like 14 fertilised so that's kind of what I was expecting initially as we were going on I was like when I was just like looking at one follicle I was like yeah this isn't going to happen but that's it isn't it they say from you want like 30 or something from an egg retrieval right that's like the yeah yeah yeah because because they dwindle every it like tapers off the amount you have at every stage fertilization they like half don't take this as like gospel guys because i'm not a scientist at all but like they're cut down when they when they're fertilized and then when they start to grow often they don't survive and it's a really it's a complicated process

and it's painful because you have the retrieval they tell you how many eggs you get and then you're either happy or sad, and then you have to wait to find out if they were, if the eggs fertilised. Because egg freezing and embryo freezing are different things. They're different things, yeah. So a lot of single women or a lot of women who don't know what they want for their future, but they know they probably want children, but don't have a partner perhaps are freezing their eggs. Right.

That's a separate conversation to the one we're having. Yes. Because egg freezing is less successful. Yes. In terms of future children. Yeah. than embryo freezing. Yeah.

But you and Dave were doing something specific. Specific, yeah. So then you find out how many are, have fertilized and how many have made it, how many grow, how many make it to day five, which is when they are able to be frozen or transferred. So we did this.

It took so long. And I was really shocked. I was shocked at how little I got. Well, how many did you get in your first retrieving? I got four eggs. But I think what was lucky for me is that I have low quality, low quantity, but they're quite good quality. So two ended up becoming embryos, which was amazing. And I was like, because once our expectations had been like reset, I was like, oh my God, this is amazing that we've

got two. Like I was just so happy to be able to get one because when they said four, I was like, oh my God, how is even one going to make it through that whole process? So we were so lucky to get two and then the consultant said it depends on you know how you're feeling but if you want more than one child in the future you're going to need to do another round so it's like okay we'll do another round because from freezing an embryo there's no guarantee that that will so that's another thing then it's only i think it's a third the chances of you actually getting pregnant from an embryo is a third so you'd gone into it with the expectation that you have 20 that you'd hopefully get 30 eggs and perhaps then maybe get 10 embryos.

Yes. This will happen in really quick succession. You found out you had four and then two. Yes. And then, yeah, I think, like, I want you when you tell this story to give yourself, like, to hold space in our wicked world. Shout out Ariana and Cynthia. But I want you to like, you know, when you tell your own story sometimes, you rush over things

and you're like, oh, blah, blah. But actually, this is a lot. And this is a lot that you were having to mentally do at the time. And it wasn't easy, you know, to adjust. You said, like, oh, we adjusted our expectations. That's not an easy thing to do. That's still a gut punch. And then you're up and then you're down.

And then you're, you know, you've a million places to be with it feeling wise. Well, this is the thing. You have to, like, manage these emotions when you're taking this, like, absolute fuck ton of hormones, like artificial hormones. But I think one of the hardest things is you have to go in every other day to the clinic to get your blood's taken and, you know, taken and a scan and it's just and then you're terrified every time you go in because you're like will the follicle have grown like what's going to have happened are they going to tell me

that my round's cancelled the mental side of it I found far harder than the physical side but I know it's different for everyone like I think actually the hormones like weren't too I don't know like they weren't that bad with me physically physically you might say differently it might have been a horror at that time but I was fine but I was just just like I was like this is a challenge like I'm on yeah yeah I'm getting to the finish line anyway second round then that also took a long time and that was much harder and I stimulated which is like take means taking all the medication I stimulated for a lot longer with that because it just wasn't happening and I kept rounds weren't able to go through and then I just kept having to just try

and I went for a scan I think four days before and the doctor said that's said if you want to cancel you can because we've got one follicle which which means like one egg basically is like I think we've only got one follicle if you want to cancel and you know we can go again once you've recovered let's do it and I was like I've come this far on I've taken so many drugs like I'm going ahead like we've got to do it and I know that my quality of egg is good um so I'm just going to try it anyway it was like all on that egg it was all on that egg so as you can imagine I didn't have, I didn't hold out hope for anything happening. They retrieved and actually, I think they retrieved two eggs.

And we were like, overjoyed, literally when they did that, I was like, over the moon. It's so funny because if you told me at the start of this, I'd have been happy with two eggs. I'd be like, what? I was so happy. We went out for breakfast afterwards. I had to go and be sick halfway through the breakfast because of the drugs because they knock you out for the retrieval. But I was just so related. I just didn't even care.

One survived and one actually made it through to becoming an embryo. So this is all a year and a half from starting with the clinic, from starting the egg freezing. It had taken so much longer and been so much more brutal than I'd ever imagined. And it sped up the, it sped up everything for me. And I think it, the idea that it was going to be more difficult than I realized for us to have children started to outweigh. the fear I had of having children and I was like this is it I'm we have to do something like I want to be pregnant now I'm terrified I'm scared like I just want to be pregnant like I just want to

do it because I think I was 35 at this point 34 35 and so after that retrieval you have like a consultation afterwards where you see the doctor the consultant and I said to her what do you think we should do because I don't have a period so I don't know if I ovulate no one knows if I ovulate if I don't have a period I love that no one

I know it's just not possible I was like I don't have a period and I want to get pregnant what do you think and she was like forget it come in and have a transfer your womb is like

womb is ready because of because all the medication I was taking for the retrieval it like thickens the lining it gets your womb ready for transfer, which means putting the embryo back inside you. So we came off the call, I looked at Dave, and I was like, let's just do it. Let's just have the transfer.

Let's just do it. I was like, we could try, and yes, it would be much more cost effective to try and keep, but I am not getting any younger. Things inside aren't getting any more fertile, and we need to, I just want to do something. I want to take this into my own hands. so that we decided to do the transfer and I think I remember talking to you in that time didn't I I was like I don't know whether to do it or not

I was just like panicked about it I just I was like so many so I just don't know what to do it's like so confusing but the consultant was lovely and she was just like she kind of made up our mind for us which is what we needed it's what she's there for because right you say you don't know and you didn't know I mean yeah impulse control

being your strength. Fuck it. Yeah, fuck it. But it's great. Can we just go immediately? She was like, yeah. So that was the last, that was the last, Tommy was the last, Tommy was the egg that you got on the last retrieval?

No, Tommy was one of the frozen eggs from the first retrieval. Because. I think the chances of you getting pregnant or higher with a frozen embryo with them with a fresh embryo. Super interesting. Super interesting. And also he was a good grade of embryo. That's the thing as well that embryos are graded at the end of,

it and everything and he was a really good grade he was a b i think like a b plus yeah love the little overachiever from the start can't relate so he's got like a brother and sister brother or sister like which is so weird yeah kind of not really but yeah that's so weird no no it i mean like a twin like same age as him but not amazing so there's two and there's and there's two of them left two embryos yeah on ice and that's really beautiful well that's why it's not a conventional route to IVF and that's why I feel like like you said before I guess I feel like I didn't earn it or I don't I haven't earned the right to be for IVF to be part of my thing online because I didn't and I want to acknowledge that as well like what people

go through on the route to IVF that it's so much like heartbreak and pain and trying month after month and not getting you know not seeing a positive line it's i can't imagine it's horrendous and so in a way and of course i obviously can't speak to it and i don't want to because this isn't been i've been so lucky with my own fertility but your your pain is different and your the journey's been different and the struggle's been different but really the it's the same it the news that you got it came in a bigger blow perhaps but it's you still receives the news that having children isn't wasn't going to be as easy for you as we kind of all think that it will right kind of you grow up like yeah it'll just happen it depends on the person if you asked and it's like death by a thousand

cuts or one massive blow you know the month on month disappointment must be horrendous yeah but you received the same information you just got it in one go yeah yeah and i i really like you know as your friend i feel very and i've said i mean i said this year a million times and we talked about it so much as you've gone through it but you have to allow yourself to to have feelings of like of anything of you can grieve what you didn't get and you can be panicked by the way that you know you can you can have panic you can have stress you can have sadness you can have grief you can have all these things and you're allowed and entitled to them. And it's always made me really upset that you've not felt able to own the fact that it has been fucking, and you know what,

pregnancy is hard. Having children is hard. All of it's hard. And we've, we've talked about so much over the last couple of years that, you know, you have to allow two things to be true. But particularly in this context, to feel like you're not allowed to be part of this community has always felt such a shame. like shame's not a big enough word yeah it feels like such an injustice that you don't allow yourself to be part of a community because you deserve it and also you you need that you know you've had a very unconventional route to having children and it you're allowed to want support and need support within that as well I guess the other thing to I hear you but I guess the other

thing to acknowledge as well is that it happened first time with the first transfer like we got pregnant and it was a successful pregnancy so that is unusual as well so that's also part of the reason that I'm like you know yeah but I hear you at the same time I still I still did it I mean and I don't know if you want to talk about this full stop and specifically on the podcast because we haven't really talked about it at all but like your future is still quite uncertain I guess with yeah we're like with the two on ice with the one that you got like i know i know it's actually something that dave and i've been i'm just going to be very very honest sorry i could have asked you this no no it's fine something that dave and i have been talking about because

i i did feel initially that um this this sounds crazy to say because i know that people listening who have tried have tried at getting pregnant like tried to conceive will be like, it's, it's like, awful. But I kind of, I grieved a little bit the, the fact that we didn't get to have that time of being like, are we pregnant? Like, we're trying, you know, are we getting pregnant? Sorry, like, sex for a beautiful reason. Doing it the natural way.

Yeah, I know I get that, of course. I grieved that a little bit because I was like, oh, that's how I saw it happening. Yeah. I mean, no, I don't care. I really don't care. Like, he's here and I like, do, it does not, it's special to me. that he was made the way he was. It's not a negative at all.

But then a part of me is like, do we just try? Do we just try? Because you do hear some people. You do. But then I don't think I get a period anymore still. Again, big floating question mark. I do find that very, very wild,

that you've been through all of this, testing, and we're just really happy. be to just scoot past the, like, the period thing. And that's one thing that I will say about, like, fertility clinics is that, like, there was no focus on, like, why is this happening? It was more a focus on, like, let's get the, like, the maximum possible amount of eggs and let's get you pregnant.

Yeah. Which is fine. That's what they're there to do. But I also would have, I do want a bit of investigation because it's like, is there a reason? I don't have a period. You're also, like, completely within your rights to want answers and to want to want to, to understand and because yes you're okay with the fact that Tommy was made the way that he was but you might not have been and you'd have been okay to feel like that do you know what I mean

like yeah there are there are certain things within your makeup or within anybody's makeup that make them able to process and be okay with various like unknowns or certains or whatever it is if you were struggling with that then you'd be of course you want answers but yeah you know it's lucky that you don't it's it's so lucky And I just feel for people who do, I mean, I actually went through the NHS and said, I don't have a period, I want to find out why. And I got asked a few questions, you know, it was like the, I think it was basically like, do you have cancer screening? And, you know, I didn't have anything urgent or immediate. So they're like, wait for a letter. And I think it was almost a year when I got a referral. You got that letter. I'm pretty sure just after you found out. Just after I fell not always pregnant. Yeah, and I was like, okay, well, so I rang them and I was like, there's no point in me coming out.

But that's crazy. And that is where it's devastating. Yeah. And that's where people's anger comes and frustration. And it's misguided at taking it out on you. Because, yeah, you're incredibly privileged that you could afford to do IVF, to do egg, to even do the egg testing. Because if you'd have had to have waited on the NHS, you'd have missed. yeah and you'd have missed you know when you now know how scarce it was and how close it was

and how important it was that you acted quickly yeah and of course people are going to be as they should be as they should be and it is miss it's always been and we and this happens across the board in every area we take it out on the people that we lash out because we don't know where to put it collective anger is such a it's such a frustrating thing when you're angry with a system and it's we see it all the time with the patriarch and with me with whatever, you go for other women because it's kind of how it's set up. It's like, I'm just going to be angry with the one that got what I didn't get. It's an outlet.

A hundred percent. It's a way to channel that you've been very good at taking that and being that for people. But it isn't fair that you have been because the anger. I mean, I didn't take it that well. Do you remember? I was a wreck. What I mean is you were very accepting of it. You took it personally, but you weren't angry with these,

with the women for doing it you were very accepting of why they were which speaks to your character but it doesn't make it it makes it harder then because the feelings that you had to be on the receiving end of were so big

and you understand wine obviously but it is hard and I get it and that's the thing and this will undoubtedly trigger people and people will have you know I don't know pick holes in what I'm saying or whatever, and that's fine.

I think I've just made peace with that. But that makes me sad. Because it's nothing to pick. Well, maybe it will all be lovely and positive. The thing is, Al, I think it probably will be. I think that I think from where I see it, not part of this community at all, but from the way I see the conversation happening online quite a lot is people do get frustrated with the egg freezing conversation.

I think we keep seeing like think pieces and like, you know, I keep saying like, stylist and Grazziah and whatever, doing like little op-eds on egg freezing. And I see people's frustration there because there's so many barriers to egg freezing. So, so many. And it does feel like this huge, like, unfair pressure on women that it's just like, if you haven't frozen your eggs, then what are you doing? And it's like, well, I can't afford to and I don't know if I want to. And I, and you've got to go through all of this.

And there's so much to it. And I think maybe at the beginning when you were talking about it, you were talking about it in a more like curious way. Yeah. And that might be where people's... Yeah. There was less urgency.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And you've never shared the vulnerable side of... And why should you? But you've never shared the... You know, you didn't share the bad results or the sad times or the painful bits.

No. And the physical stuff as well, like, I mean, I guess that is like the effect of the hormones, but also the, like the procedures and everything. Like I just, I went into it all so blind. You're very brave. Do you know that? You always say that like, oh, I can't stand pain. I can't handle any of it.

I couldn't do that. I have to whatever. You are genuinely, when it comes to physical pain, I've never known someone to. take it on the chin quite so fine. Do you know what? It's funny because with procedures, like with a C-section, I agree. But it's a weird thing. Give me a bikini wax.

I'm like crying in a heap on the floor. I can't check it. You were injecting yourself. You know, you had these horrible bruises from the injections. Like physically, you were really going through it. You were having the thingy up. You're whatever every other day. Pay with the fucking worst.

But you're just, you're like, oh yeah, crack up, you know, whatever. Yeah. Like, you're so brave to it. I didn't mind injecting myself, actually. I did mind the pessaries. Where do they go? Well, they can go up either channel. Which route did we choose?

I started with the front bum route. I just heard that. I'm so sorry, guys. On bum root. Started with the front bum root. That does cause irritation now, so I had to switch to the back bum route. Which caused more than irritation. as we, well, that's, I don't know if I've talked about this before.

That's a huge part of the reason that my everywhere's got so bad. Finish the sentence, we've got this far. That's why they got so bad as well. Awful. I had to do that twice a day. And that's the thing that I think with the transfer, it went into that blind as well. The transfer.

The transfer. Because I was like, oh my God, we've got the egg. Put it in. You might as well. Like, how easy. I've done the heart part, put it in. It's not like that. No, it's not like a water gum.

No. No. You put it in. And then for 12 weeks, for the entire first trimester, you have to inject yourself twice a day, two pessaries a day, and constant monitoring of like your blood levels to check the HCG. And also the transfer as well. I went into that blind. That wasn't that painful, but fucking hell, it's so uncomfortable. You have to drink a liter of water before you go in. Which famously, you are loath to do. I hate it. I was like gagging in reception having to drink it all. And then you can't go to the toilet. They need your bladder full for the thing to like, I don't know, be able to see everything. And I was like, I was just like, I'm going to piss

myself. I'm going to piss myself. The whole way through, I was like, I'm going to wait. And he was like, you're just, you're not going to wait. And I'm like, Dave, I'm going to wait. I'm going to wait. It was just, there was no magic to the, uh, to the transfer moment. I was just terrified that I was just going to piss all over the bed. It's not like in the Sims when you get the woohoo, like you get to make the baby and it's fireworks. No, no, no. Less of that. But you did go away after the transfer. But also, like, once I'd left the bed and I was able to weigh, that was fine. But also, I was like, I'm not just going to, like, pee the embryo out.

Different holes. And also, yeah, I did say to her, I was like, but can I go to the toilet? And she was like, yeah, of course you can. And I was like, but, well, not just come out if I like, she was like, no, not that I know the different holes, but I just thought, like, gravity was just going to slip down. She was like, no, it's fine. there's something to be said for women's self-education within this. That would be an unfortunate oversight.

Oh no, it's happened again. It slipped out. Another one's weeded away. After all of that. But you did go away after your transfer with Dave. Yes. We had to do the Light London shoot in Tenerife. Yeah.

Which was awful. Yeah. It wasn't awful. It wasn't awful, but I was tired. It was a lot. And you were in a swimming costume and you weren't. And I was so... And the hormones take such an effect on you.

And my stomach was because of all the... I don't know why it was so bad, but I had... I couldn't do any of the tummy shots properly because it was just covered in bruises. Such a shame that you're not... You're such an advocate for body confidence because otherwise you could have photoshop those right away. I know, I know.

Retouch, retouch, re-tudge. Wipe them right out. But yeah, and that's, we were in Tenerife, and that's where I did the pregnancy test. And I just didn't believe for one second that was going on. It's like, there's no way I went and they stuck something in. And then suddenly that's going to make me pregnant. I just didn't believe it for a second.

I've got that photo that you said. You were like, is that a second line? I was like, oh my God. I like, oh, this makes me cry. I've got a photo of you crying. You want no shit. When I sent it to you. I'm so bloody wide.

I can't know. It's gone now. yeah i've got the photo of you when would that have been obviously i mean i never delete a photo in my life so that will have been march uh may the third oh i love that you remember the day is that your hand or my hand it's your hand yeah because you sent me this yeah that's it that's it so there was that a second line i was yeah Oh my God I literally told you

like minutes after doing the test I remember running because I went I was like that's mine because I went and ran and found the one I had with Arlo and it was like the same thickness I was like yeah it looks the same oh man and then you sent me a photo of you crying

and then I cried it was yeah mate and then they've got feels all your bruises here oh gorgeous oh what's that chat's oh there's a lot

weird yeah Oh, babes. So, yeah, that's that. I'm really proud of you for talking about it. Thanks, yeah. I feel like it just feels like the right thing to do. I don't know.

I don't really know why, but that film just, like, changed everything. I think something interesting to acknowledge within that film is how much, and I think this speaks to a massive part of this conversation in general, how much resistance the formation of IVF as a concept had. because so many people felt that the scientists were playing God, that it wasn't moral, that it wasn't right, that it wasn't God's way. And I think although we've come on such a long way, it's always important in these conversations

to acknowledge our history and to acknowledge where these things have come from. So much of our patriarchal beliefs stem from religion and stem from this sort of fear of whatever. And I think that's an important acknowledgement within this as well. A lot of the feelings that a lot of people have towards IVF probably stem from something like this, some sort of stigma. And it doesn't, although we don't have it so overtly, that will have trickled down in a way.

Interestingly, I never had that. backlash when I was talking about. I don't think, no, I don't mean that. I think I just mean, I think it's, I think it's why a lot of people might feel very, a lot of people within the IVF community might feel very protective of what they're doing and very protective of the community. Yeah. Because they do feel that it's, and, and, you know, there's so much to it as well,

you know, with personal emotions and personal grief and personal. But I think as well, there is this element of like needing to protect the rights to IVF and protect the access to IVF and protect what it is because it has been under threat and it is under threat still while we talk about pro-life, pro-choice while women's bodies come up for debate again.

Right. It is still something that people have to protect very closely. Well that, and they cover that in the film as well because they did have to fight really hard and he was called the scientist who pioneered it was, I think they called him like Franken doctor or just referring to, Frankenstein and he had like a live television debate with I think the guy who

who discovered DNA who was opposed to IVF and I think the the medical committee as well wasn't up for giving them funding because of it it was a real battle yeah because yeah this idea of like playing God yeah a hundred and I mean it's it's patriarchal at its core it's women's you know it's always been put as a as a fertility has always been put as a woman's issue when time and time again we see it isn't just a woman's issue it's just as likely to be a man's issue it's certainly a family issue i was speaking to a girl on on in on instagram after i did that post and she was she was talking about how her her husband his sperm basically doesn't have good motility so they need IVF but the NHS won't give her IVF until she loses weight

until she fits under a certain BMI and it's like, and she said and it was just like she hit the nail on the head she's like, me losing weight won't make my husband's sperm swim faster. I was like, it's so true. Like it's horrendous that like, okay, it's your husband's fault

but actually the onus is still on you. Yeah. To to be like, why? I know. Just give her IVF. And there are so many barriers and we haven't, we won't have covered, we wouldn't even got close to it. But to even get one round, It is a postcode lottery, which is in and of itself really just disgusting that it can fall down to where you live.

We see people, we've spoken to Laura Addington about this on the podcast in the past. Yeah. We see time and time again women refused it on site for their weight. Right. You then have to have a BMI of under 30. But you also have to. And it's something we used to talk to our old producer about Daisy, who was. in a relationship with her partner, Daisy,

you have to prove to the NHS that you've been trying for over a year or two years to be eligible, which lesbian women can't do. No. And gay men can't do. I actually, I don't know about rights to access IVF for gay people. I don't actually know the... I don't either.

I remember this for having been a conversation we had with Daisy. So according to Lesbian couples have the right to access NHS fertility clinic but they may need to fund some treatment themselves before being eligible for NHS

IVF in 90% of integrated healthcare boards LGBTIQ plus couples must self-fund at least six cycles of artificial insemination before they can access

IVF each cycle can cost around 1500. So the total cost will be tens of thousands of pounds. Wow. And this is a conversation I'm having more and more with my friends with a plethora of different needs and requirements across the board. And I've got friends who are looking at going abroad to do it, who are turning to holistic, who are trying different things because they're being so let down. And I also think as well, something to touch on is secondary fertility. Because if you have a baby already, I don't think you qualify for IVF on the NHS. And I think, I actually think if your partner has a child,

then you wouldn't be eligible. I think, yeah, if your partner has a child, then also it's very difficult to become eligible, eligible for IVF in the NHS, which is so, which is horrible. It's so horrible. I want to signpost, and I'm not the best place to do this, and I'm sure you'll have more, but I would like to signpost some people having, we've had this conversation that I've seen online. A previous podcast guest, I don't know if you're following his journey, Ed Jackson. Yes. I am so in awe of him and his wife sharing their journey. But they have decided to start trying for a baby. And they found that he has very low sperm ability due to his he had an accident um spinal cord injury and they're sharing the journey yeah which is

extraordinary and that's happening i mean that's literally i've been watching it this week like same every time we post i'm like please be good news i know because i think he had an operation they went into the testicles to remove sperm to see if any were viable i don't think they were no it's he's been so vulnerable they're being amazing sharing that um life with ivy cocoa uh yeah lovely carrie she's currently going through secondary infertility we spoke to the infertile midwife on a podcast last year yeah again about secondary infertility yeah um i'm sure you have more things that you know of places to put people the what was the podcast series that you loved

michel andrews is oh my god it was so good glass glass by michel andrews it's it's kind of a similar story to mine and also not at all but it really highlights the neglect when it comes to women's health. But her, she's such an amazing storyteller. And this series was just beautiful. I cried my eyes out. I listened to it when I was going to get my placenta removed. And I listened to it in the waiting room

and cry my eyes out. It's a beautiful series, really lovely. Funnily enough, I actually stay away from IVF stuff. I don't have recommendations because I've always just stayed away from it all because I've just found it easier to compartmentalise it. So I'm sorry that I don't have any better recommendations, but I do want to recommend Gaia the world's first IVF insurance provider and they work to make IVF more accessible for more people.

So please check them out if you are struggling financially with accessing IVF. I think also to mention Hurtility, which was the place that you went to initially for your egg testing. Yes. We also did an episode with your embryologist last year, Emma. So we'll leave a link for that and the show next, which is sort of more about egg freezing in general. And the film, Joy.

And joy. I have to mention something. Go on. We were invited to the premiere screening of that. I know. We have to acknowledge that out because we sit here and we talk about how we're never invited to anything. I know. And then we got invited to that.

We didn't fucking go. Oh, God. We couldn't. We were in here. we were doing the series but if there's one thing I should have gone to

and we weren't fighting I know I felt so I literally we're the worst we've moaned and moed and moed and moed and we're not even going

I hate us I hate us we're the worst absolute worst and you know what we can be trolled for that but you're not gonna troll we're not going to do

the IVF trolling anymore get this loads that you can get us for this isn't that? Please, I can't. No, yeah, I do just want to. And I know that like, when I say things like this, I'm like, I know that my words mean, don't mean anything to people who are going through something that is so brutal and all-consuming and just so horrendous.

But I do just want to say, like, I just want to send love to anyone who's going through anything to do with fertility, anything reproductive, any kind of struggles like that. it's so intense and it's it can be so horrible and it can be really isolating as well because no one especially if you don't know anyone else who's been through it no one around you knows like really what you're going through even your partner doesn't really know what you're going through the extent of it um so sending lots of love and I hope you're okay proud of you are nice I guess that's it yes that's it look at that look at it I can breathe now love you thank you guys love you

Later guys, thanks. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network.