Should I Delete That? - Al's Mum on Postnatal Depression, Breastfeeding Struggles & Life with the Lights

Episode Date: May 26, 2024

This week on the podcast, Em and Alex are joined by none other than AL'S MUM! First off, the girls record their GBA from backstage ON TOUR, BABY! Norma and the girls dive deep into her experience of early motherhood, and how she handled 5 girls under 6! They cover it all, from shame and guilt to the freedom and joy of motherhood. This episode is an insight into how to help those who may be struggling in those early days, and if you can relate yourself, see this as a big, warm hug from the gorgeous Norma.Purchase tickets here for our first ever ✨LIVE TOUR!!✨Follow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I remember being ashamed, you know, going out with other women who, you know, who stick their babies on and no problem at all, you know, and I'm jealous, you know, looking and thinking, oh, why can't, why couldn't I have done that? Why? Hello, and welcome back to Shiddily at that. I'm Alex Light. And I'm in Clarkson. And this is the second time we're recording this because I'm a twathe. and something happened to my recorder. I'm so sorry. But we are going to try and must up as much as enthusiasm as we brought the first time because we are backstage.

Backstage, baby! In the London, Islington, Assembly Hall. It's so fucking cool. It's the coolest place I've ever been. It's a venue. And we are backstage in a dressing room with a mirror in the corner with the bulbs on it.

The Hollywood bulbs. I feel like Mazamonro. I feel like Charlotte Tilbury. I feel like someone's going to come on and go, come on, darling. Sweetie. Darling, it's got some swiss with pillow talk on your lips. Best believe it.

Best believe it. What other shade would I wear? I haven't brought lipstick, actually. Luckily for me, you know how many I've got my handbag? You saw the other day. You do, you do have a lot on your handbag. Can I have one? Yes, I literally think I've got like nine Charlotte Tilby shades in there.

Excellent. That'll do. Pillow talk. Love it. So, we are here and obviously, my good. I'm guessing that's, I mean, what else good? What are the good would we have? Also, you know it's my good because we have just recorded this.

I'm guessing it's your good because you said it about seven minutes ago. So sorry. our goodness that we're hearing it's all it's it's it's it's a fucking live show and it's a proper like we've got a disco ball it's huge we've got a disco ball with a big a big pink glittery and it's strobing pink glitter everywhere and there's pampas grass on this there's two lots of pampas grass on the stage oh my god and alex has just sent me a video from outside look at the crowds no i can't now i'm going to be sick oh no i'm actually going to drop this crowds of people that let me see that isn't that send me that right now i can't

I can't. I can't. I can't. Oh my God. Guys, you're here. I'm going home. I can't believe it. What did you do if I left you? Would you go on stage? I was thinking about this. I was like, would I go on stage? Because all my dreams have been that I've had to go on stage alone and I couldn't, I hate how you perceive me. Sorry. Yeah. No. No. No. No. It's a podcast. Do what I talk to. Myself. I die. Good is that we're here. Doesn't get better than that. Bad. Bad. Bad. My bad last week was that I was scared I was going to get norovirus. My bad this week is I got no virus. And I got no virus. And it was worse than I imagined. Absolutely horrific. But you absolutely deserved it because tell them what you did. I spent an entire evening with my whole infected family.

The very night. I got cocky and complacent and I deserve it. You're right. I deserve it. I deserve it. Shame on me. Shame, shame. My bad.

Your bad. My bad. Well, I've an awkward to get into very quickly. My bad is the fact that we got your mum on the podcast. Couldn't be happier. Okay.

What a treat. Yeah. I love her. I think she's amazing. Does she love me? does she fuck because I can't stop swearing out I can't stop swearing and I know she's going to be listening to this and every time I swear I literally want to bite my own tongue off

and it's like you know when someone says don't press the red button and all you want to do is I'm going to press it I'm going to bloody press it and there's just something I see it and I'm like fuck and then I hate myself and the pressure is just too much I think you did a really good job actually I didn't I didn't you caught yourself quite a few times but she blanched I saw her physically blanched and then I've been with her again today and honestly I'm like there's something wrong with me there's something wrong with me I can't help it it's like it's so I feel a deep sense of personal shame

without further ado straight onto the awkwards straight onto my awkward like I pissed myself last night I think you did too I hate myself for doing this I actually hate myself for doing this we've got a WhatsApp group an SIDT WhatsApp group me M Daisy and Emma who does our social media and we asked you we asked everyone who's coming to the show tonight to send in their embarrassing stories on social media so Emma had been collating them and throughout the day she'd been putting them in the WhatsApp group. So things were coming through all day, you know, stories were coming through all day, whatever, whatever. I'd seen these. I'd seen all of these. I'd actually copied and pasted all of these into a word document. You know, anyway, one came in in the evening and I was

obviously like not on work in work mode. I don't know. One came in the evening and it was like, Hey, I'm an Alex. I just wanted to let you know that I'm coming tomorrow night and I'm such a huge fan of SIDT and I actually have an embarrassing story as well. I read that. Emma had copied and pasted it and I read it, but I read it as if it was from Emma. And I was like, so touched. And I was like, oh my God, I replied. I replied in the group. I was like, oh my God, that is so sweet.

That is so kind of you. You really didn't have to, you really didn't have to come. But like, that really means a lot. Sent it. And then I was like, you know, when something doesn't feel right? And I was like, what doesn't feel right? I can't put my finger on what doesn't feel right.

And then I was like, no, no, that wasn't forever. She's not fucking coming. That wasn't forever. She's got no fucking intention of coming. But I deleted it. Why should she? As fast as I possibly fucking could. She deleted it.

Like lightning fingers first. whatever I swear I didn't even see the message before I just had like Alex light deleted the message and I was like sent it I was like what did you do I died I laughed for so long it's bad it's so embarrassing because it's so so sweet and so awkward like because she didn't mean that for us she doesn't she doesn't she doesn't care for us in that way and why should she I want my brain study to see no what's the missing synapses like there's a missing link somewhere there's just as like that's my inspiration to be loved um my awkward hit me very quickly it's all of you you little fuckers because the other day

i put up a vlog which i was really delighted with and i was asking for all my opinions as i put on my nice pink sparkly dress and i said hey you guys what shoes shall i wear with this dress and everybody commented on the shoes a little bit more brutally perhaps than i would have liked because those green shoes got a bit of a hard time it was like oh god i'm so please you're sending those back i was like i've owned them for years but no worries um anyway you know there was commentary about the shoes and then all of a sudden other commentary entered the chat and it didn't fucking leave. I was wearing

my pretty black dress. I thought I looked quite trendy. I actually thought it was like hella Alex Lighty. Yeah. No no no. The comments. That's an insult. Have you escaped the hairdressers. Hey Voldemort. What's Snake doing billowing down the corridor? Oh, I didn't know you'd done a master's. Are you graduating? All of these comments about my dress and it was like

oh this I love the pink dress but that black one needs to go straight in the bin. I was like that's the one I already owned. Absolutely crushing and there was nowhere safe from it. My vlog comment section was full of it and then I went to your bloody vlog and all anybody could talk about there was how I was billowing down the street. It's just sort of why is I'm graduating and I was like crying laughing. Why is she graduating? So trolled. So funny. I know. I'm getting rid of that joke. You're having that dress. I'm I love it. It's perfect for me. It is. You did at least get you've got to degree no people horrible about it oh my god for those like two people that didn't hate it's from

h and m so sad that you don't have a degree and everyone's like i'm graduating you're like oh didn't even get into uni guys but thanks ever so much fuck it right we've got to get on stage i know we've got to put some makeup on first are we kidding yeah no i've got to put makeup on desperately but before we get on stage this is this is a very very special episode for me as you'll know because I cried, like, through most of it. It was horrible. I hate myself, but it was super emotional. I don't know.

Anything to do with my mum makes me incredible, incredibly emotional. Makes me incredible. I'm incredible. Anything to do my mom makes me incredibly emotional. I love her so much. She's like my favorite person in the world. I love her so much. And I just think she's the absolute best.

And I'm so proud of her for coming on and sharing all of this because it's not easy for her to do. She's from a generation and a family that really don't discuss mental health, I guess. still a lot of stigma around it and she really opened up and was very vulnerable and I just I love her and I just think the conversation will be valuable to so many people. I know it is hugely valuable to me what she says and I hope you enjoy that further ado. Here is my mum Norma light. Hi mum. Hello girls. Lovely to be here. Oh this is so surreal. I know. I know. I've got to say I am fascinated by this place

because I want everyone to know that I don't really follow Alex and the problem being is that she was brought up in a non-bad language house right we didn't swear in front of her so the effing and cheffing I find really hard to get along with her and both her dad as well we both go what did she just say no listen I

Blame M I blame my mum. I blame my mum My mum has genuinely got the most appalling language in the whole head Does the C word? No. My mum has something called I'm not going to say the word to you because I'm scared But she has the C word test And she

She deploys the word in conversations For people when she meets them and she gauges their reaction Just to try and work out if she'd get on with them one out I'd be like that oh excuse me I don't want a jean honest with her going on Yeah, my mum's got really bad language But she still tells us off I can still, because my sister's really bad

Her language is awful But what's going to happen when the baby You know, you've got to be so careful I know You don't want the baby going to nursery Saying good morning I think we're going to make another generation of retrovates as my fear

I'm more worried with my mum's language In front of the baby than my own Well, you're coming to the live show Oh yeah, you can take it up with her there Yeah, yeah. Perfect. That'll be, that'll be good for. So I can't start at the live show. And it's definitely a family affair then because we're all coming.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that'll be, yeah. I know. I love how many of you there are. Yeah, I know. There are four of us here today or four daughters here. No, three. Three daughters, yeah.

Twins, unfortunately. Three daughters, two grandchildren. Yeah. And you. And me, yeah. Yeah. I'll tell you. Oh, gosh.

Well, I mean, the, us, your daughters are the reason that you're here today. talking on the podcast and this is a topic that's come up actually we've talked about this topic throughout my whole life with you it's something that is like at the forefront of your mind still but we've talked about it more recently since the kids Jen and Catherine became mums and then me which is about what you went through after having after I after having me after I've ruined your life I've never been the same since she hasn't she hasn't been the same since it's like it like it was very very traumatic and it's something that you feel very passionate about and you've been very on top of with jen with katherine with me and it's your postnatal depression

and your struggles with breastfeeding which fed into that yeah yeah didn't they they yeah yeah yeah yeah i actually think that the breastfeeding was you know obviously had a very traumatic birth you know, 30-odd-hour labour, you're pushing for two hours, you know, cut to ribbons. So, you know, starting off wasn't great. But I used to work on a paediatric ward, I'm a nurse, and was very used to small babies, could handle them, thought I knew exactly what I was doing. I had a niece and a nephew, seen them, spent lots of time with them, thought I knew what I was doing. But then they give you this child of your own.

And you suddenly think, oh, my goodness. And being a nurse and my sister was a very senior midwife at the time and went to NCT classes and there was no other way to feed your baby other than breast. You know, formula was never discussed. It was just not, not even thought about. So, I mean this is 36 years ago. Oh, this is 36 years ago. Yeah, so it will have been.

And I'm afraid it just didn't work. Honestly, it was, and I was desperate, absolutely desperate, you know, because breastfeeding, having a baby and breastfeeding, you know, for the majority of women, that's what they want to do. Yeah. It's what we're supposed to do. Yeah. And I think, you know, we're told that and we're told that.

And, you know, and there are some women who, I know, women who do not want to breastfeed, don't even want to think about it. Fantastic. That's their choice. But for me, at that time, I desperately wanted to breastfeed. And we struggled on for six weeks and probably, I cried, you know, 24 hours a day and she screamed 24 hours a day. Sorry. And in the end, we just, I remember dad coming home and saying, right, that's it. She wasn't gaining weight. She just wouldn't take it. so I just stopped dead just said right that's it bottle of SMA and a ginatonic

thank you very much but it all went downhill from then on I became really really unwell just the guilt the terrible terrible guilt I can't explain and you know a thing having a traumatic back

you're starting off on the wrong footing and then on top you can't feed your baby which as I said there was no other way to do it so suddenly and the shame I remember being ashamed

you know going out with other women who you know who stick their babies on and no problem at all you know and I'm jealous you know looking and thinking oh why can't why couldn't I have done that

why anyway I insomnia kicked in and it has stayed with me for the rest of my life. I just, yeah, I just became highly anxious. You, I was just terrified. It was just really horrible.

And so that happened to me. And, you know, I would say it took, you know, a good two years to kind of get a little bit better and thought, well, may as well have had another baby as soon as. because, you know, we need to get, yeah, exactly, you know, any normal person would have said, but I have thought I need to dispel all this because we always said we'd like a large family. So Genevieve came along and I just said, right, after what I've been through, I am going to try and I would love it to work. I'm going to try. But if it doesn't, it doesn't. And I can remember, I think she fed for about 12 hours and the minute.

it, I put her to the breast, all those old memories came back. The hurt, it hurts. You know, it's not nice. And I said, no, not doing it. Not doing it. You know, we had all the bottles, everything ready and had a completely different attitude. I just thought, I really don't care what other people think. Yeah. I'm, I'm not doing anything to harm my baby. I just think that it's better for her and for me if we're both happy and that is what I did and then after that so you know I did actually go and speak to people you know I was very friendly with a health visitor and she said to me normal you go and speak to people you know who are struggling with the feeding and you know what's happening to them so you know I wouldn't have been able to do it

these days but I went around to a few women and honestly say you know saying to them it really if you're in such a terrible state it doesn't matter it just doesn't matter all you want is a thriving baby yeah you want the baby to thrive and it's just going to it'll screw you up and it'll screw the baby up you know just don't worry about it and you know I know people have got very very strong views about it but at the end of the day you've got to think about yourselves and I'd just like to say to all those ladies who are listening and who are struggling and it makes me feel quite emotional honestly please please don't worry about it you are doing the best for your baby and believe me it'll pass like everything it'll pass don't I always say to you just this

Before you know, you'll be weeding your baby and formula breast milk will be out the window, you know, and, you know, you were the only one breastfed and your other sisters are all fairly intelligent. I'm the most ill. I've got allergies, eczema, bloody asthma. Oh, I know. But I would like to say it to ladies, just please, yeah, take my advice. And if it works, wonderful. you know if that's what is for you amazing but if it doesn't work don't struggle on just don't struggle on and though i know that Alex has had um quite a response you know after she posted and you know and i just think those women who have got very strong views about breastfeeding just try and put yourself in the be more empathetic and put you know and put you know and put you put yourself in the other women's because those women are so vulnerable. So, so vulnerable.

And you have to, you know, it's great for you, but don't put your views on other people. I think it's so wrong, honestly. I really do. And the guilt. And the guilt. Honestly, it's like, guilt. It's like nothing, yeah. And, you know, I have never, I have never been a maternal person, have I? No. Never. No. I was, you know, it was always Catherine. Catherine was a maternal. one you know I liked dogs but not I'm not a maternal like I've never loved babies I've never known what to do with no I don't think you even held no no I was you know I was more interested when they started walking and talking but you know it's I was like with babies like so when I came became pregnant and you said to me you know breastfeeding I will talk about you know I had a

breast reduction as well so we all knew deep down I wasn't going to be able to and I was like honestly mom I don't care yeah I don't care it doesn't matter I'm not interested like if it doesn't work I have like no problems whatsoever and I did a complete 180 on that and it must be the hormones it must be like the maternal hormones it's so strong yeah it's the bond between you and that baby and wanting to do the best for the baby is so strong

yeah and I know and you know I remember sitting with you you know and she was trying to rest on it had the pull on and she what did it say one mill it was like you've expressed 0.1 mill

and I said I think that's the water I don't think you've emptied the water out and then I said Alex come on come on

God you were there yeah don't let and with each and every one of them I've said right from they've said

I'm pregnant I've said right breastfeeding feeding we're going to be chilled about this and we're going to see how it goes but like I I felt horrend you saw me I was hysterical I was like inconsolable right and I felt like that being a not maternal person someone who was like pretty aware of the fact that I was pretty sure that I wasn't going to be able to

breastfeed and had you as well and I was still like that you know I just feel so sorry for the people who for the women who you know don't have that support and who was it's just yeah it's just hard and that is another thing you know no criticism of anybody but i think here in the UK we don't get the support you know you look at other places in europe you know they have it's a completely different attitude you literally are given a baby and they say they are do that and someone might a nurse might come in and say you need to latch on and you know this is how you do it but then you just left so i breastfed alo until she was 13 months of old. And fine, no problems?

Well, I really struggled at the beginning because I had massive boobs and she wasn't very big. And I was literally, she literally couldn't breathe. And it is interesting what you say about not having support because I got home and she couldn't match because my boobs were too big. So I found a lactation and I think she was born on Wednesday and on Saturday or Sunday.

A lactation consultant came to the house and she taught me how to feed. And after that we didn't have any problems and it was fine. But I don't know if I paid for that. So I don't know. And I was throwing money at my problems because I was like, this is agony. Like, you know, it's so painful. And then I breastfed for so long because I didn't know how to stop at all. And actually, it was only when I did stop. I realized I was insane. Like, I was genuinely, by Christmas, I was ready to stop and I just didn't know how. And I was

breastfeeding all the time. She can't sleep without it. She was a very, like, a gym, she still doesn't fucking sleep, but sorry, language. No, no. No, it's still. Let's sleep. Sorry, sorry. And, um, yeah, I didn't know how to stop at all. And then one day, in March I just can't I looked at her I cannot do this anymore and it was only when I stopped

I got my stitis and it was interesting because I went to the GP and she was like I had a cabbage in the in the boom and she was like well why do you put that there

no she didn't have a clue and then she put me on there was no there's no support for stopping anyway got on antibiotics fine stopped and it was like

only after I stopped I said oh my God I'm back to myself and I didn't realise what a drain it had been and with the next baby if I can

when I have another baby I would love to breastfeed for as like I did but I would stop so much earlier but I don't feel like I mean it's part of the same thing but I didn't feel like I knew how to stop and I felt like I didn't have a good enough excuse to stop

yeah do you know what I mean like if I had to say to people oh I'm stopping just because I want to yeah that's right whereas this time I'd be like I'm stopping because it made me a lunatic and my moods were so bad and I hated it and I wasn't the best version of myself

and my hormones need levelling out And I feel more justified to say that. But then I don't think I'd have had the words for it. Yeah. And I felt really weird about stopping. Yeah. And it's really interesting, like you say. And I think it's just because there's no support.

No. No. Nobody, you know. And how do you stop? You know, you can't just stop. No. You have to wean them off. Yeah.

Because you're producing all this milk. Yeah. And you do also get shame for going too long as well. Yes. Yeah. You know, like if you go for, because I remember people by the time, because she did have teeth, obviously, by the time I stopped breastfeeding.

And some people do make comments, and then, oh, you want to stop that? This is getting weird. Make sure she's not too old. You know, it's getting kind of odd now. And you're like, oh, fuck it. Sorry, normal. You're like, oh, bloody hell. Like, I don't know.

Like, I don't know how to, you know, it's so unhelpful. If people are like, don't do it, it's weird. I'm like, well, I don't know how to stop. And I don't know what formula to, I wouldn't know what formula to buy. And then when I did stop, she wouldn't take anything. Oh, gosh. Because she, why would she? She'd only have breast milk.

Yeah. I found the very specific oat milk that she likes. So that's all she has now. Won't have cows milk. No. Won't have, wouldn't, I mean, she's too old for formula anyway. She's fine now. She's fine.

She's fine. But I just didn't have a clue. You just don't know how I was Googling. I was like, what? I don't know. I don't know what you do now. No. No.

Again, lack of support. We just haven't got the support. You know, there's no. I mean, I've got a friend, a Danish friend. And her daughter went to a hospital for a week. after she had the baby just to help with the breastfeeding

yeah that's amazing isn't it that is incredible you'd still be there now literally we'd be like living the dream oh go yeah

she said you want to come visit me how many mills now Al three oh I think it's time to come home oh I know it is a very and as I say

you know women are so vulnerable you are aren't you You, I mean, look at you, you fed her for so long. You know, you did your best, but then you still had that feeling. You don't ever feel, I don't know if any woman ever feels like, did that perfectly. Yeah, well done me. Should I just say something? You do not know what guilt is until you've had a child.

You do know what guilt on it. It's true, isn't it? That is when you, oh, everything you do, you think, oh, we've done the right thing. Oh, should I, shouldn't I? Yeah, it's horrendous. Yeah. I know. And the anxiety. And the anxiety. How are you after your other babies mentally? Fine. Fine. Really? No problem at all.

That must be such a... Oh, and that's another thing I've got to say. Please believe me. And if it's not true, I'll eat my hat. You will have a lovely time next time. Yeah. Your second baby is, it's like night and day. Oh, that's so nice to you. Oh, honestly. And I've said it to all of you. and I've said it to so many people I've said, you know, I've had horrible time and they're dreading it. And I go, just wait, you'll love it.

And, you know, Genevieve's just had baby number two. And the only way I can describe it is, I loved you. You know, you were born. I loved you. I cared for you. I was, you know, you know, what I was like. But when Genevieve was born... She was better. I loved her better.

It was just so... I just fell in love. with her straight away you know whereas Alex it was like oh she's mine and oh she's mine she's what do with it yeah so help someone help but they say that with the first baby the first baby gets more attention more presents more whatever but the second baby gets a better mother yeah yeah and you will just love it because a you know what you're doing yeah be you're not going to list because everybody's got oh i'd do this and if i were you i'd do that and i would do this and i would do that and i would do that everybody's got a different opinion

you don't need all that you've been through it and you know what works for you and you do not take any you just go yeah smile sweetly and go yeah whatever yeah so you will just I promise you you'll love it

that's lovely that you that you had such a tough time after the first one for anyone listening because I suspect it must be a consideration of people who have postnatal depression or anxiety with the first one that it's very scary then to go into it again

yeah so that's encouraging No, yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember going to my doctors when you were about, I don't know, probably four or five months old, and going and saying to her, I just don't feel right, I couldn't sleep. Seriously, when I say, couldn't sleep, I just, you know, I was awake all night. I was terrified of her, you know, I mean, you know, it was just ridiculous. But, and you couldn't talk to anybody, you know, I couldn't. And it's sort of like my mum, you know, in those days, you know, I wouldn't go to my mum

because she, I didn't want to upset her or to worry her, you know, and my sister, my eldest sister, she was the midwife, you know, but she had two young children. She was busy and we weren't very good about talking about mental health in those days. So I couldn't talk to anybody. But I remember going to see my GP and saying, I just don't feel well. And she said, I remember, she tapped me on the hand and she said, oh, baby blues, it'll soon pass. And I came out thinking, and I just remember thinking, it won't. I know that this is here for a long time.

You know, it doesn't just go away like that. It's something that, you know, and then I went home and I spoke to Dave, didn't discuss it with Dave either, you know. I kind of said, well, yeah, I've had a bad night, didn't sleep. But I remember saying to him, Dave, I can't cope. I just can't cope with this. And he said, right, we're going to see somebody. So we went back to see the gynecologist. And I walked in and he said, how are you?

I said, well, I'm not doing very well. He went, oh, good old bout of postnatal depression. Here, I'll take these. And that was that. And I remember going and getting a prescription. And we were sat there. Dave had the tablets. And he got me some water.

And I was like that, why I don't want to take these. You know, I don't. I don't. He said, take them, Norma, take them. Yeah. Brilliant. Best thing I ever did. Yeah.

And within, you know, a few months, I felt a million times better. But in that time, I lost a lot of friends, you know. I'd made friends, you know, through NCT and whatever. And they were all coping so well. And I wasn't. And I just couldn't, I felt like I couldn't keep up with them. So I became isolated. I sort of withdrew and, yeah, but second baby, I'll tell you what, you just, I mean, I've got to tell you a quick story.

So, you know, right. So Alex was six, Genevieve was four. Catherine was two and three days, two days, when the twins were born. Oh, my God. So five of those six. She looks so good. It's the gin. It's the gin.

And so my older sister came over to our house and I was bathing the twins. So she had one twin on her knee and I had, I was sorting the other one out on the changing mat. And I gave the outfit. And I just remember putting on these tights. What time was this? This was, you know, bedtime, six o'clock. They were getting ready for bed. They'd had the bath.

They'd getting ready for the bed for bed. And she said, oh, gosh, Norma, this is awful fancy for bed. So I said, oh, no, no, what I do is I get them ready now. So in the morning, all I have to do is change the nappy. Give them a bottle. And then, we're on our way. God love you, boss. That's genius. That's so smart.

It is. She said, Dave, Dave, I think we need a word. I think we need a word. But I was quite like, well, yes, this is what. And I used to go around. I'd say, I'd go and open all the, you. you know, at 11 o'clock at night when we go to me, I'm going to go and open the curtains now,

so I don't have to do it in the morning. I was glad. How else were you going to do five children under six? Yes. Literally. No idea. No idea. Because dad was away a lot as well. Yeah, dad worked.

You know, he was building the business. I mean, when Genevieve was born, he was out in Istanbul. When Catherine was born, he was out in Dubai. You know, came home, had the babies. Then you'd have to go back. A year apart, a year apart with them or? Two, two years between, yeah, yeah. So it was, yeah, it was fun and games.

And then, you know, as they got older, they'd all line up. And I'd do the hair. You'd go one by one and do all the hair. They all had the same hair style, whether they liked it. And then I'd do their teeth. I'd have all the tooth brushes and I'd clean all the teeth. Yeah, you know, and all the shoes would be cleaned the night before. Had to be so organised.

Yeah, I'll bear. I just don't understand. I didn't really understand before. And now I've had a baby, I extra don't understand. Can I just say something? Neither do I. No. And our famous saying, Dave and I, is, and we say this, probably a few times a week,

we look at each other and we go, we never thought this through. We never thought he goes, we really didn't think this through, did we? Did you know the twins are twins? Oh, no, so I didn't know. So got pregnant. So Catherine would have been, I don't know, 15 months old, got pregnant, terribly sick and not just sick but exhausted. And I said, I'm sure I'm having twins. So I went to see my GP and I said, I've got a feeling.

I'm having twins. So she said, I'll send you along for a scan. I think it was probably about 10 weeks then. Went along. This radiographer did it. You know, he'd seen to me previous times. and he said, oh, you know, did the scan, oh, perfectly normal. I can remember him saying, oh, yeah, nine-week size, perfectly normal.

One baby, you know, to your fourth baby, not a problem. Away you go. Then I just got bigger and bigger and bigger and sicker and sicker and sicker. And my sister, who was a midwife, I went to her and I said, I'm 13 weeks pregnant and I look like, she said, let me have a little feel of you. She went, oh, my God, you're a 20-week size. She said, you beg her back to the doctor. She said, it's either a multiple pregnancy or there's something wrong.

Yeah. So I went to see him a GP. She said, go back for another scan. And he was so offhand. He didn't even put a gown on me. He said, this is ridiculous. A woman with a fourth baby, you know, da-da-da-da. And Dave had hold of Catherine while he was doing the scan.

And I just remember him going over and over and over. And I said, there is only one there, isn't there? he went and he just put his two fingers up too i said i told you i told you i knew it i knew it and i said dave how are we going to cope he said don't worry norm we'll talk about it later did you ever talk about it i will never forget them coming home and and telling me never excited no was i oh flip i was not excited she it ruined my life she wanted to be an only child No, no, okay. Look, I found it difficult with Jen.

I found it a little bit more difficult with Catherine. I did a lot to Jen that I now regret. She did an awful lot. And I'm still terribly sorry. And I found it even harder when Catherine came along. And then suddenly I'm being told that there is two more to add to the bunch. I just remember I went, I sat on the sofa and I called her over. I said, Alex, I've got something to tell you.

I was terrified of it. I didn't remember it like that. And you went, you went. Yes, what, you know, she was, you know, she was proper, yes, right, okay, what? You know, where all those horrible children, ooh. And I said, mummy's going to have another baby. You went, another baby? You've already got one.

I went, well, actually, actually, it's not one, it's two. And she just looked at me, she went, you're having two babies? I said, yeah, and she just marched out. I said, I thought, I think that went down well. when I say it was like a comedy everybody we told howled with laughter I can't believe you had twins and that they were both girls yeah and I just remember we had this scan and she went oh look there she is and I knew they're identical oh my gosh so I said it's two more girls it's two more girls two more girls I said but she

could have made a mistake. She might, you know, she might have made a mistake, you know. The imaging wasn't that great then. So I was really expecting. I mean like that. What are we going to call them? We've run out of names. Yeah. What are we going to call them? Yeah. Because I always think it's funny that Catherine's name is Alex's middle name. I know. Yeah. My two favourite names. Yeah. Okay. Of course. If you didn't expect to have that many. Do you have any idea of how many kids you wanted? Four. Well, we got one extra. That's not too bad. Yeah. We only got one. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Oh, my God.

And then the twins were born. Sorry twins, if you're listening, but they were horrible. They were horrors. They were fantastic baby babies. You know, they slept. They were wonderful. They were great feeders. No problem.

But then they started, they were hungry. We got thrown out the nursery. I used to, I put them in the nursery one day a week so I could go and do my Tesco shop. So we went, you know, and it lasted for about three weeks. weeks and then the lady called me in and she said look we have a problem she said you know there are so many babies in this room and your babies um they just need feeding all the time and they start to cry and when they start crying they don't stop and they get all the other babies crying she said so we have to feed them first and then all the other babies are like that starving so they try and give

the babies the main meal and then the twins would be screaming because they wanted the pudding. So she said, I think you're best looking for someone to come to the house to look after them. But it was lovely meeting you and everything and good luck. And goodbye. This is how I remember just walking out with them. I said, Dave, we've been thrown out of the nursery. They told us not to come back. Oh, my God. It's not the first time the twins have, well, it was the first time the twins have been thrown out of something, but not the last. No, they're oh, no, no, no, no. The twins, yeah. piano they tried to do piano

and the piano teacher said that they were the worst students that she'd ever had and she threw them out the house yeah get out get out remember we're all the walk of shame because they wouldn't practice oh and it's funny you know because you know with one two

and possibly three you know you do everything you know you'd go to wherever you know swimming piano you tennis we went everywhere but by the time we came to the twins They're all right, they don't need to be fine. They don't need to be extraordinary.

I think like your family should have been a sitcom throughout you're growing up. You tell the story of me going shopping. Oh my goodness. So we were, you know, getting ready one morning and she had a little basket. I was upstairs in the bathroom, just got out the shower and I'm chatting away to her. How old was I? You were about 18, no, 18 months too. you know, she had this basket, she had all

a little bits and bobs, you know, and she said, I said, okay, when you go, can you get me some bread and six eggs and a pint of milk, please? She said, okay, thank you. So I'm there, you know, drying myself off. You know, the next thing you heard the door go. I thought, what, what? She'd open the door, managed to open the front door.

And she's out. I went shopping. And I'm running behind a towel around me. You are such a people, please. I know. One one two to get. eggs and bread, I better go now. I was like, okay, Mom.

Alex, come back. I didn't mean it. I didn't mean it. Where are the shops? There are no shops around. Oh my God. How was I going? No, no shops anywhere near. No, I know, I know. Oh, yeah. When did you start not hating having sisters? Never.

That's about 18 years old. Really? Isn't it, fun? It sounds fun. I was a very anxious little. child. I was not like a happy go lucky, carefree kind of kid was I. I had issues, big feelings, big issues. Called jealousy. Yeah, and a lot of them was, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it wasn't until I was a bit older. The twins I always loved. Yeah. Not initially maybe, but I came around to them. We always laughed that Em's, because Em's mom has like an open house policy and always

has right yeah just like people come and stay all the time i do i think for about six years we just i don't think we ever locked it right like she does now because she's you know on her own but yeah there's always someone when i came home from school there'd always be someone sitting at home and we laughed because i said when we never someone rang the doorbell mom would say duck everyone duck down lights off duck all your friends could you all of your friends were you know we're duck we don't want anyone to know we're too busy To be funny Too many nappies

There were so many of you I get it Your house was full We had capacity There are only three Me and my brother And my sister Yeah my mum

My mum is from a really big family Right And's oldest child as well Oh are you Yeah Oh are you the responsible one I am yeah We bear the burden of

We do Of the older Just hopeless Hopeless younger siblings Really Yeah Well my yeah Actually yeah

Yeah we do Yeah we do bear the brunt I know you do you do you definitely are the you know the most responsible you do get no sanctions yeah yeah yeah yeah this fun though isn't it isn't yeah isn't it yeah isn't it really loads of fun Alex is actually now really defensive if anyone upsets any one of them she jumps right in there yeah you could protect them yeah yeah yeah because we can be horrible about our siblings oh yeah nobody else yeah yeah yeah absolutely right yeah yeah yeah so interesting like I think

the position that you are in the family can really define who you are as a person. Yeah. My mom's the youngest. My mom's brother was 18 years older than her. Wow. And then her sister was like 16 years older and then her mom had triplets who she lost. All three of them. Yeah. Oh my god. And then she had another sister, Heli, who was five years older. So mom was the youngest by like a long way. And yeah, it's so funny. Like I imagine like you're completely different generation from your older brother and your older sister. Literally an entire generation, 18 years.

Yeah, mad. Yes, they're like totally different. It's like, because my cousins now are all in their like 50s. That's so weird. I know. Yeah, I've got like super, like way older cousins because yeah, because they're 18 years, you know? Yeah, it's cool. Family's amazing. I think this has been such a good insight

into you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I came off lightly. I was scared of anything else. You did, to be honest. Yeah, this is better than, you've got away with this better than what I thought you would. Thank God. To finish up, to round up, I loved what you said to people who are like struggling with breastfeeding. But for people struggling with postnatal depression, because it's super common, right?

And when it happens, people feel like they're the only one struggling with it because it flies under the radar a lot. But there's still a lot of stigma around it. And people often don't necessarily want to talk about it or admit to having it. what would you say to those please please go and get help honestly it's really common and you know I mean there are they say one in I mean I don't know one in four or something you know men get it as well yeah yeah yeah yeah get it and you know I say I would say in fact I think it's one in seven women and one in 10 men I could be I could be wrong but I think it's much bigger than that because there are women who won't talk about it

but you really must and I think we are in a different generation and I do think doctors will listen to you now and there are support groups out there because I think there's nothing nicer than to talk to somebody who's had or who's been through it or who is going through it you know you can talk and you can

just think I'm not on my own you know, there are other women in this situation. So please, you know, get support groups going, everybody and get together and, you know, don't feel alone. And, you know, I always think the middle of the night is the worst time. Everything seems a million times worse. You know, in the morning you think, gosh, what was I worrying about? You know, it was a bit ridiculous.

But just remember, there are thousands and thousands of women just like you who are laying awake worrying just like what you are so please please get support and you know and i have loved this opportunity to talk about this because it's been something that has never gone away for me and i probably we probably talk about it on a weekly basis don't we yeah you know maybe we have in-depth conversations you know and obviously now the babies are all here and you know we talk about it and I just think I just wish there was more out there just more help

you get help get women through this horrible vulnerable vulnerable stage yeah and the other thing I would like to say as well just changing the subject is you know when you go into hospital and you're in labour yeah and you are terrified

your first baby you don't know what's happening and you complain you say to the nurse Oh, I'm really, you know, I'm three centimetres and she says, oh, I'll just go and get you two paracetamol. Two paracetamol, that doesn't get rid of my head. And then she says, right, I need to go and get someone to sign it up or I need to go and get, you know, so you might see her an hour later. And I just think, that's another thing that I just think could do with changing, but I know everybody's understaffed and, you know, it's really hard. But, you know, poor first-time moms. It's just indicative of a society that doesn't protect or prioritize mothers.

And I think it happens from the beginning. I think it happens you don't get enough support when you're pregnant and you don't get enough when you're having your baby. And it's through no fault of individuals. Obviously, your sister was a midwife and you were a nurse. It's through no fault of amazing individual staff members and the incredible NHS. But I think the government don't fund it enough in society.

we don't talk about it enough yeah yeah and that's like the most i think i don't know this is such an attitude that with all of it with you know i think even they've only changed the laws recently around miscarriage to allow you to you know take time off work and stuff if you and it's mad like the expectation that we put on women to just i had two miscarriages as well did you and it was literally um not just nothing yeah yeah in between me and jan yeah in between alex and jen i know That must have been horrible with your postnatal depression. Yeah, it was, yeah. Well, just your mum died.

Yeah. At the same time, that's when the first one happened, right? Yeah. That was the second one, I think that was the second one. Wow. So, yeah, my mum, I think my mum was buried one day and I had to go and have a D&C the next day. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

And I was 30 a few days before she was buried, you know, and it was just, oh, it was, yeah, Yeah, just a chaotic, chaotic time. Yeah. But nobody really took any notice because we were all traumatised because my mum had died and it was just get on with it. And there was no, you couldn't go anywhere and talk to people about miscarriage or there was nothing, no support then. And you just, yeah, had to, yeah, and we did.

So things, you know, possibly, I mean, the only thing I will say now, I think that I got more care or we got more care whilst we were pregnant than what you guys get now you know I'm surprised when you say oh no we're not going back to the baby's not getting weighed until you know whenever you know whereas they used to keep a much closer eyes my mum always says that mom's always like if you're not wader have you not wader if you're not wader

if you're not wader I'm like I just wear her on our bathroom scales and mom's like she was popping in the health centre or being sort of encouraged to come to the health centre Also, I had, where we live now is where my mum had me. Like, we're literally like same area and everything. So she remembers all of it. She's like, oh, do you not pop in here? No.

I mean, I had preeclampsia and... I can't believe you. Enemia, I turned up and they were like, oh, we didn't realize you had your anemia. So we've, here's a blood transfusion ready. There's some blood ready to transfuse. I was like, what? And then they're like, oh, when your blood pressures at 200, like, you've got preeclampsia. I feel like their writing was on the wall with preeclampsia.

I was so swollen and no one died. Very, very sorely. Do you know, honestly, I said, I said, I knew the whole time. I had it with her. Wow. And exactly that, but I was taking into hospital. They didn't even.

Yeah. And I was in hospital on two occasions with my blood pressure. And I knew by her swelling. And she would do her own blood pressure. And it would be really high. But then you would go and it would be different. And they'd say, don't, don't do it. So I didn't want to make her anxious by saying,

I'd come around to the house and say she would just have a little go of your blood pressure and it would be high and she'd say but they tell me not to you know so when you went into hospital I was not one bit surprised so you know in future you have to yeah

when I lose all my like kneecaps and like all my joints can't see them anymore and the carpal tunnel she couldn't move away I was going to sleep with my hands up because it was just like I can't like this is so painful you had a lovely time being pregnant oh it's fantastic It's a funny when Alex came and saw you after Tommy it was born

and she was like, wow, you look great. And then I think he said, you've deflated. Literally. Everyone was like, oh, wow. He was like, well, you've lost all the, everything. And he was really caught off guard. Oh, you're all flat now. Oh, gosh.

We've got to wrap up. Oh, that is lovely. I have loved this so much. This is so special to me and I will, oh, God. Oh, I know. I will treasure this. episode. Wow.

So thank you. And I love you so much. It's been lovely meeting you. I can make me cried in your wish. Sorry. I'll treasure it forever. So thanks, Mom. I love you.

And it's lovely meeting you for the second time. And now I'll know what you look like. And there's M. Hi. Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you.

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