Should I Delete That? - Are we all guilty feminists? With Deborah Frances-White

Episode Date: October 9, 2022

This week, the girls are graced by feminist Quing (don't ask) writer, podcaster and comedian Deborah Frances-White! They sit down to talk all things from makeup to Roe Vs Wade to pud. Deborah's insight and wisdom gave us the hope we didn't know we were looking for and, as expected, the laughs we needed too. Follow Deborah on Instagram @dfdubz and Twitter @DeborahFW, find out more about The Guilty Feminist on their website, www.guiltyfeminist.comFollow us on Instagram @shouldideletethatEmail us at [e-mail] & edited by Daisy GrantMusic by Alex Andrew Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Did you know all our glamping units have a resort quality Canadian-made and eco-friendly bed? Since day one, we have proudly partnered with Colonna-based mattress company Haven, ensuring you have the best sleep possible. So it's just one more reason to visit us in the Boreal Forest. You can also try out a Haven Mattress, risk-free, for 100 nights, at Havenmatress.ca. Why did I post that? Ah, I didn't know what to do. Should I delete that?

Yeah, you should definitely delete that. You know, I saw something on Instagram. You might have seen it about how all virtual assistants, like Alexa and the Google one, and all of these, like, robot voices are all women. And it's because, like, there was this massive thing about how, like, we're used to, like, women. I think it was vulgar drawings on Instagram did this amazing thread about it we'll share it on our Instagram

and should I delete that Instagram but it's like how like we're conditioned to like associate women with doing the household tasks so when you're like asking Alexa to make your shopping list or whatever it's like you're talking you're telling a woman to do all of these things

you're joking no it literally I was reading it I was like oh my God I think I saved that post it was really late and I was like it looks too deep for me to read right now but I'm saving it to read later. Yeah, I think I did. I saw it like three times before I read it and then I read it and I was like, whoa. Sometimes thread some like I just can't.

Yeah, like I know I should but I can't. Yeah, falling out of love with my Alexa. Yeah, we'll share it on the yeah. Should I delete that page? But it's like, it's nuts when you realize, because even, and I think it's like satnaves and like even the Zoom woman, that's what just reminded me of it. And I think it's like you get nagged by the woman like you know because we get annoyed with them like with the sat na we always get annoyed with her she's like of course we do

oh my god oh my god of course she's so annoying it like literally my head just like fell out my ears I was like oh my god pop oh my god it's so true it is so true the only exception is Siri I suppose

but he's fucking hoax yes yes they said yeah weirdly British series default voice is a man but it's literally the only one UK leading the way I guess wow so in America series a woman oh my god in America series a woman how fluid I love that yeah oh no we've activated we've activated my Siri on everything hang on oh shit stop saying it asking when plastic was invented

yeah that's the only time like Siri's come into my life and he was fucking mansplaining to me typical typical fucking typical fucking typical I don't make me look like an idiot. Hi, everyone. Hello. Welcome to, should I delete that? It's really early, early in the morning, and I'm just like, so anyway, the virtual world is sexist. Morning!

Oh, good, though, considering today's guest, we're on a theme. Such a good thing. Well, well done, well done. Tying it in very well. I'll take it. Thank you very much. Oh, I'm excited for this one. It's good, actually.

Yeah. Apart from the bowling alley that we recorded in. Less said about that, the better. I reckon. Yeah. How are you? I'm really, really good. Like, yeah, I can tell. I know. I honestly, I haven't been this happy in ages. I just feel like I could cry. Like a different person. Like, you just seemed so, so happy. Thank you. I am. I literally, I'm really good. I, after we recorded the other day, um, obviously, so we recorded last week. on Thursday night

I announced that I was Peregante on Friday and then this episode came out on Monday and just before just as I left the recording for last week I went to go and have

a live coaching session with Jacqueline because I was a fucking mess and I think sorry it's bin day so if you hear bins then it's because we're recording so early in the morning

the bit like still been there my fault sorry no drama it's pleasure see I'm so happy nothing could bring me down. I don't care. Will I record it like midnight? Fine. Yeah, I just, I had a little coaching session and I really worked through my shit basically and I feel so relieved. I think you want to be

deep. We'll just, let's just be deep, okay? Go on, hit us. So I think what was going on is that when you're pregnant and you haven't done that before, maybe even if you have, I don't know, but I felt like very out of control in one sense like I was like what the fuck is happening to my body like I've got very little control over that and I think like subconsciously or consciously whatever I've been very much controlling everything else and trying to like hold on to control

of every element of my life that I can and a big part of that was with Instagram and like not telling Instagram or whatever and I just sorry I'm gonna just gonna have a little sick of my mouth Cheeked you sick Like, still going strong. People keep dealing with it.

Don't worry, first trimet. Like, soon as the first trimester ends, it'll end. I was like, you guys, catch up. We are. We are way past the hat. Ahead of that. Anyway, yeah, and I think I was just basically holding on very tightly to control. And not healthy, but I think a big part of that as well was, like, controlling what people

thought of me, which is impassible. And so Thursday night, I literally just, listen to Jacqueline for like an hour and I just wrote down everything she said honestly my note I was tempted to take a photo of my notebook because it was like it was like it was so like it's so lame but it was really working I was like I can't control this like what other people think of me is in my business like why do I care like why do I care so much about all the stuff and then I just don't know I don't know and basically I realize that like my knuckles are just like white from holding on so tightly for the last five months. And I just let go. Yeah. And I feel so

relieved. I was thinking this yesterday. I was like on my silly little walk around the park. And I was just, I'm a stupid back hurts and I was really sick and I didn't even care. I was just like, I'm free. Like, I'm free. And I just feel really happy. So, woohoo. That's really good. That's really good news. Yeah. I often think with those things like the anticipation can build so, like it can build so much in your own head and it can become something else like it can become something so big and yeah it feels like you

and actually weirdly probably it was a false sense of control that you had because actually this thing had become so big that it was controlling had control over you anyway 100% I had like who the fuck was I kidding I was a complete like I was a slave to these feelings and my phone and I was getting into really toxic patterns.

Like I was going out and like looking for things to hurt me, which is not that hard to do when you work online. And I was finding them. And I have been in a very, very bad space with that. So I had no control. I don't know who the fuck I thought I was kidding myself, Loll. And I was telling all of you guys, I was like, I know what I'm doing. I did not, I did not know what I was, I was a mess.

So, yeah, I've like put aside all of that and we're just focusing on the good shit. and you know what I know now. Like, people are so great out. Like, everyone's been so fucking nice because people are so wonderful. Like, are people so nice? It's so nice. Like, I literally just love them so...

I just love everyone so much. I was like, oh, my God. Oh, my God, everyone's amazing. This is going to be so jarring for people to listen to on a Monday morning. They'll be tired, it'll be cold and raining. And I'm like, isn't the world amazing? So, sorry. People are so nice.

That's really good news. I'm very happy for you. It's about time, a bit of thriving came in. How time you shaved the fuck up? It's a really weird thing, though, because I have to caveat all of this and say, like, the pregnancy's been quite rough

in terms of the sickness, and my emotions haven't been good, but I have loved being pregnant perversely. Like, I wouldn't, I don't change anything. I mean, well, I would, but I wouldn't. You know what I mean? Like, it's absolutely fine. So I just, I don't want people,

because people, DM me, I don't know, like, I don't want people to think that I'm like having a horrible time because I'm not. I've had a difficult time but I think everybody has a difficult time because I think that's just part of the experience but I wouldn't change it for the world um yeah so I was never sad about being pregnant I just want to say that like I was I'm sad like that's always been so so so so happy it was just everything else that was sad whereas now everything's fucking great so amazing I feel like I've taken drugs

I haven't taken drugs oh my god I feel like you've given some to me you're like you've cheered me up, bloody hell. So is that your good? Oh, hell yeah. I'm thriving. Okay. Love it. What's yours? You don't even good? Or, by contrast, do you want to bring us down? You're going to give me a bar? Hit me. No, no. Do you know what? I'm going to give, I'm going to give a good that I have for some reason. Like, it was my good like three weeks ago, but I keep forgetting about it. Not forgetting about it. I don't keep forgetting about it. But I keep thinking, oh my God, that's my good. Because I really want to share it because it was a real good in the moment. moment but other things have kept coming up so this is my belated good right so when we were in new york

we walked past this stranger it's called the strangers project have you heard of it no where people write anonymous letters right and and you just get to read these letters right so we walked past this shop um it was a strangers project workshop uh sorry pop up and they had like tons of these letters just all pinned up and I today's like absolute annoyance was like I have to read every single one of them so I did but honestly I spent about 20 minutes reading them all I was like crying and laughing and crying and one really stuck with me because it resonated so much okay so I'm going to read out I spent most of my life trying to be nice underlined and I'm starting to realize that it's just not the same thing as being good underlined I want to be good uh

And that hit me like a ton of bricks. That's so true. That nice is not the same thing as being good. And we try so hard to be nice. Like we, it's such a big preoccupation, like collective preoccupation for women especially to be nice when actually, and I've always equated it with being good and thought that me being nice meant that I was, that I was being a good and good person, but it's just not the same. Like, isn't that like?

That's so. so much of that, God, we're getting into it, but I think so much of that comes from like being a kid and it's like being a little girl and it's like, be nice, be nice, good girl, like be nice, good girl, good girls are nice. It's so true because niceness is saying sorry when you want to say fuck off or thank you when you're not grateful. It's like, it's the grinning and bearing shit. It's having to be polite to men that are making uncomfortable. It's not telling the someone, the street yelling at you to suck a dick like it's right and that just basically means be quiet like be nice is like be quiet I don't cause a scene be nice yeah yeah yeah but actually

and also it's like it's the whole thing with boundaries isn't it like when you're nice it's difficult to have to be nice and have boundaries so you will do you will say for example yes is something that you actually really don't want to do and in my head I'm like I'm being nice I'm being a good person, but that thing that I don't want to do that I end up doing that I don't put my heart and soul into, heart and soul, it sounded like really intense, but that I don't put my all into because I never want to do it in the first place. And I think I'm being good, like being nice and like a good person. But I'm actually not because it's taking me away from things that actually, I don't know, it blew my mind. You kind of resent it and then

that kind of shows, like, it kind of shows when somebody doesn't want to be there, you can tell 100%. And it's like it's not making you happy. It's so true And I This for me Working with Jacqueline Was something that Like

Because I am Was such a people pleaser It was like The flimsyest boundaries ever It was just It was like It was sad It was like spaghetti

Like they did none It was like Oh we fall Like tissue paper Like honestly Crap And I was so scared Of like

Saying no Without giving an excuse Or like I don't Just like There's still And there's still stuff

Like you'll get an invitation And you think Oh god I really I don't want to go to that and my Alex will be like well then we won't go and I'm like

what a stupid thing to say that is not nice we have to go and actually it's just like do we like are we being a bad person are we being a bad person for saying no no we're not

like maybe it's not the nicest thing in the world but we're not bad people and like yeah being nice is someone else's perception I don't think people like maybe you're a nice person but I think like you're much more likely to judge a person

or like to comment on a person's niceness rather than their goodness as a human. Do you know what I mean? Like I think at my core, I would rather know I would rather spend all my time doing good than being nice because I don't think being nice gets you that many places whereas doing good does.

Yes, definitely. And like personally, like on a personal level, that's like, that is like a value I want more than like good a value I want more than nice. Because at the end of your life, and I hate when people say this, like, on your death bed. Actually, I don't hate when people say this. I just think it's like a lot of people say it.

So I don't know why I said hate it. I really don't hate it. I think it's really good. Anyway, like, at the end of your life, will you be like, oh my God, I'm so glad people thought I was a nice person, or, like, I'm so happy for all the good I did. Yeah, and being good doesn't mean

that you're choosing to be a nasty person because I don't think nasty is the opposite of nice. No. There's variations of niceness. but I think being nice is a preoccupation where so it's like if you do if you like if you take a charitable endeavor for example if your heart and soul is behind doing good that's so much better than doing it to be nice because it's actually very ego led and like um so almost selfish to to do it to be seen to be nice is not the same as doing it because you want to be good does that make sense

Like, niceness kind of, I'll tell you what it is. I think niceness feels more like you're doing it for external validation. Like you want people to see you being nice. I don't think niceness is a selfless thing, whereas I think niceties aren't selfless, whereas goodness is. Like if you're being nice, you're doing it to make somebody else happy or you'll do it to make somebody else like you or to make somebody else's day better. If you're being good, you're doing it because you just want to be good. and offer niceness as a byproduct of that, but it's not the incentive.

Whoa. Because this is the other thing, right? I think sometimes people say to me, God, I haven't, like, this is, because sometimes people say, will say to me or, like, about me, that, like, when people disagree with me or whatever, like, I'm not very nice in comments back again.

But it's like, I find this very difficult because it's like, if people are very, very, in my opinion, wrong or inflammatory or unkind about a group of people or whatever it is and I want to have a disagreement with that it's such an added emotional pressure that women have to be nice whilst they're having an argument or having a discussion men don't have that men can just spit facts and make points whereas women have to like package it up as niceness and you have to be so polite in your presentation so you can't just lose your head and be like no this is what I think you have to

say oh thank you so much I really respect your opinion actually and um I get it but I also think this because you have to tread so carefully because a woman has to be nice in order to be good whereas actually you can have very good intentions and be a good person whilst also not letting people talk to you like shit you don't have to be nice to people who are treating you badly fuck yeah because this and I always I struggle with this because sometimes people will be like oh well you whatever like if people say that I'll try and prove that I'm not nice or whatever because I don't take shit in my comments, but it's just like, well, take shit in my DMs, but it's like, but why should I? I'm a good person. Why should I sit here and take shit? Whoa. Whoa.

Oh my God. Because actually, someone messaged me about something, they were disagreeing with something that I wrote on stories, and I wrote back. And my, I, I, what I wrote back was absolutely fine. Like, there was no aggression. It was, but the person wrote back and said, well, why, why are you being so unkind. And I was like, how am I being unkind? I'm defending my work. I'm defending what you are attacking me feels strong, but I guess attacking or questioning or challenging. And I was just, I went back and I defended my work. Okay, there were no niceties. I wasn't like, hi, lovely, how are you? But I wrote back and I defend, you know, and then she was like, okay, now you're just being unkind. I was like, there was nothing unkind in that. I'm not being unkind. The way that

women, the way that we have to write and the way that we have to present ourselves is that's why we all put like exclamation marks in our emails and kisses at the end and we say at the beginning and we're like, oh, just popping in, so sorry to bother you. So it's like if these niceties aren't there, then we're being blunt, we're being harsh, we're being a bitch, we're being unkind, we're being ruthless. And it's like, no, we're just talking like a man. Jesus Christ, if I sent emails, if I sent replies to DMs, like Alex sends replies to his work emails, everyone would be like, what a fucking bitch. But he's just doing his job.

Right. And he gets away with it. Like, well, not gets away with it. It's just normal. It's normal. He's praised for it. He's very successful at his job because he communicates clearly. But if we communicate clearly, we're being unkind or we're being nasty or we're not being nice enough. Oh my God. This is so

annoying. Wow. Wow. This ties in so well with our guests. We've done such a stellar job here. This is great. I know. I wish, this is a sort of thing we could do deliberately. And, you know, that's not our brand. That's not our vibe.

So, yeah, my good is that I've learned that there's a distinction between nice and good. And it's, I feel like it's, it's like changing the lens through which I view stuff. So there you go. I love that. Here's to being good. Here's to being good and not being, well, also being nice. I'm not there yet. I think we should challenge you for a week of just being not unkind, but just deliberately not nice.

for a week. And not nice doesn't mean like you're going to go and kick a puppy or punch a pensioner. It just means you're just not going to go out of your way to like, to just like guild everything, frill everything, pink everything, kiss everything. You know what I mean? You can just... Yeah, constantly say thank you. Talk like a man. Yeah. Bring us down. Watch a bad. I actually don't have a bad because I'm in such a good mood. Oh, I love that. Okay. That's great. I love that. That I have no bad. Bring me something terrible next week. okay I'll tell you what it'll be hopefully it'll be terrible

it'll be you from a Cypri at prison because you've punched a pensioner I told me to stop being nice so I fucked everything up and now I'm facing life okay so that's next week my bad my bad is that

Candy Crush is now on the backburner because I've discovered because well for two reasons reasons. Number one, I kept spending money on it. Yeah, I need to get a life. No, number one, I kept spending money on it because I was, I was like running out of moves and they were really hard levels and I was like, I just can't, I can't do this level again. I'm gonna have to buy some moves so I was paying $3.99 at a time and I was like, I have to stop this. So I've got a new game called Blocky Blocks, right? That sounds like something you buy for a toddler.

it is it is it is not meant for people in their 30s but basically you stack all the blocks up and it is so addictive and so good that I when I tell you when I close my eyes that's all I see I just see blocks do you know how lucky you are that you didn't take another path in life out because with a personality like yours it's like you could have like you were one wrong bar away from train spotting I swear to God I know I know I know. I know. Very addictive. But honestly, like, I close my eyes and I just see blocks. And I dream. All I've done is dream about blocks and I dream about putting them together. And I'm talking to people. All I'm thinking about in my head is this fucking game. So I don't know what to do. I don't know if I should just go cold turkey. It's called blocky blocks. That's my bad. Yeah, that is quite bad. So in the same way that I've had to block certain websites that don't make me feel good. Not porn. It just don't make me feel good.

You know what happens you to type blocky blocks into Google? Go on. Strings of children's games. Okay, it's not, okay, look. That looks like Tetris. Oh, I don't know. Can you see? Yeah, that just like a shift of Tetris.

You need, if you ever play Tetris? No. Ow, that's what you need to be doing. Oh, okay, maybe I need Tetris then. Tetris is the best. Okay. Yeah, you need Tetris. I can't believe I'm feeling the addiction.

So, I've got all. my sister's on to it and my top score is, thank you very much, 10,000 and 7993 and they are nowhere near and I'm taking great pleasure in it and I've said that I will give them 20 pounds if they beat my top score. So they're all like furiously working away. You're having, you're having to buy, you're spending money in other ways. This is, it's the same problem. If they all beat your top school, you'll be more out of pocket than you were with Candy Crush. Oh my God, I didn't even think about that. No, but I am really confident in my ability with this blocky blocks. Okay, you're not paying them because you want to get money. You're paying them as an incentive to keep

being at the top. It's a way of making, making them want to be as competitive as you, because nobody else would care about blocky blocks as much, but by financially incentivising them, now you'll rest assured that you'll always have a competitor. Oh, two things. Number one, it's not called blocky blocks. It's called wordy origin, so never mind. I don't know why I thought It was called Blocky Blocks, but I really think it thought it was. And the other thing is, Dave heard me recording the other day last week. And afterwards, he was like, it's not a pine cone that you saw. It's not an acorn that you saw.

It was a pine cone. I didn't know the difference. But now I do. I thought the poo was an acorn, not a pine corn, not a kitten acorn. Which one is a spiky one? The spiky one is the pine cone. And then the acorn is the little thing where it's right smooth and round at the top. Like a squirrel.

Oh, like. Oh, like. Oh, like the squirrels like. Okay, my awkwards. I have two. Excellent. So one of them was yesterday when I was in the park

and I was walking Bua and she was being a right little dick yesterday, I'm going to be honest. When it's windy, she gets really self-conscious because she gets like, I think it's like a bit of a breeze on her fanny. She's got a really low-hanging

fan. Hashi. It's huge. It's like a bell. Anyway, and I think when the wind goes up it, it sort of puts the fear a day in it so she sits down a lot.

So she doesn't thrive in the wind. She's a bit of a devil to walk. And we just get into the end the part by the kids. There's a whole thing on the common. I regularly have fights with cyclists because they go like 25 miles an hour through the common and it's like there are kids and boo has been hit by a bike. Honestly. We're both tired. It was huge. Nothing irritates me more. I'm like, go on the road. Go on the road. Nothing irritates me more. Just go slowly. People that do, okay, there's, yeah, people that drive, drive and cycle and motorcycle too fast, nothing irritates

me more. And when they rev and then they go down a street that is clearly a residential street, there could be kids and they rev and they go fast and I honestly I want to punch them there she is there's the woman in her 30s she's back

don't let the goppy blocks feel full of falling I'm back and I'm not being nice no I agree I just when people cycle through like at 8 in the morning when it's like kid drop off time and it's like there's just

toddlers and dogs everywhere and they come through in like their cleats at like 20 something miles an hour and it's like I get that you want to cycle I know it's for everyone

but just you need to slow down for your own good because a few months ago this guy ran over Bua and like she was I mean she was playing she was in the park do you know what I mean like she was just playing with a collie and it was chasing her

and then she got run over and I know that there are people I didn't realize this until TikTok but do you know there are people in the world that don't think dogs should be let off the lead in a park yes but when I met someone said this to me in DM or like in unpopular opinions and I shared it and my DMs

have never been so wild like people like but this is a commonly held. I didn't really like this. I'm scared to get into this. No, I'm scared to get into it too. But yeah, it's a really big thing. But I mean, like, I can't, I'm not doing that to do her.

Like, she lives in London. She needs to run and she's great. And that's why we have the green spaces. Anyway, anyway. How else are dogs supposed to go and run? And get proper exercise. Otherwise, it's really bad for their welfare. Like, it's just not good.

So anyway, she was playing with a collie. She's good as gold. You know what I mean? She doesn't bother kids. She doesn't bother it. She doesn't, whatever. But she ran across. was running in the park and this guy was cycling like 20 miles an hour and he ran it over.

This was not even my awkward. This was just a caveat. Anyway, and then he looked at her and he was just like, oh, like, oh, she should have looked where she was going. I was like, she's a fucking dog. You should have looked where you were going. Like, he was really annoyed with her. Like, and I was like, we didn't do the green cross code because she's a Labradoodle.

Like, I don't know what you walked from me. Yeah, I did feel really bad for him because obviously it was like an accident and whatever, but it's just, I don't know. whatever it's fine so I was I had to put blue on the lead I'd now call it chaos corner because this is where all it's literally like you couldn't you couldn't write it's a bit of a common where the end of the kids play park it's where it's where all the moms and the toddlers are hanging out and it's it is chaos then there's just dogs everywhere because it's where all the the pathways meet in the middle and it's where the cyclists have to dismount to go over a little

footbridge so it's like it's just chaos it's where all the bikes come and all the children and all the dogs so after boo is unfortunate flattening we now put her on the lead for that corner and um anyway so i had her on the lead and she was being a real little not i've really set the scene for a very boring story um because she was really being a little dick and she was sitting she sat down i was holding my coffee and i was holding my phone she sat down abruptly because the wind went up her funny and as she sat my phone flew out my hand and bounced into the children's place and park and it was like I was like oh that's annoying and there was like a fence between so I like put my arm through the fence to try and like reach my phone and I couldn't reach it and I was like oh this looks so stupid and it's like I tried for too long I tried for longer than was good do you know what I mean it was just like and I was really not able to reach it people look did they help did they fuck no so I was like okay right I'm gonna have to go in you can't take a dog into the play park so leave booer and just like walk in and it couldn't have happened further away from the

gate and it was just so embarrassing for no reason at all that I just dropped my phone like it was like and everyone was looking at me like ha ha and no one helped anyway that's really mean but it's London isn't it it's not and also there is a division between in my opinion between dog mums and human mums in the comments and oh go on well I've always thought this and I'm scared to broochie but I guess now I'm about to have a human maybe I'm going go over to the dark side we'll see oh my god but in the summer months particularly you do get quite a lot of moms who don't want the dogs coming well don't want dogs coming near the kids so if like you're having a little picnic and a dog comes over and you get kind of like they get kind of

like get your dog away really and it's like well this is difficult because we come out here every single day rain or shine boo doesn't know the difference between December the first when all the kids are going to be inside because it's warm and July the 2nd when they're all sitting out here because it's stunning and she's going to shit here either way do you know what I mean? So when someone puts... Oh, I don't like that.

Carrot batons and sausage rolls in what is effectively her loo and she goes over and she's like, hey what you got for me, you know? Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, that's so true. Yeah, so there's always a bit of like and I always get the impression that it's kind of like they've got a miracle and I've got

a dog. Do you know what I mean? like they've got like a perfect thing and I've just got this like beast but do you know what I really going off topic but what I really don't love is when people when I say how much I love betty and people like wait till you have a child like that you won't know like that will put put that love no way how am I trying to say it they they'll they'll say like oh there is no love like a child though like you won't even like it won't compare to the love you feel and I'm like hang on i love my i love my dog like stop it why you say and you might have a horrible you might hate your child you might be like oh you're awful yeah i wish you were more like betty i just i love

my dog yeah and also like dogs are people's babies like booer is our baby like i know we're having a baby but booer is our baby like she's my she's my first born and if alex comes and says hello to like my bump i'm like and to boo her good that's nice like you can't give me love it and or like, oh, whatever, because she's like, yeah, she needs to, like, still know that she's, like, queen of the world. It's still Bua's house. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I'm getting her in you, because we're making the baby's bedroom, so I need to put her in, like, a bed in here. I'm like, I don't want, yeah, she can't, she has to know that she's still, still type of one. Yeah, she wasn't training for a baby. Yeah, 100%. And the baby's just going to have to totally get used to that.

It's a boo's world baby. Totally. Yeah. But it's nice because the baby will, love Bua? Yeah, of course you will. And Bua's going to absolutely adore her Boers really good with kids, thank God. Because that's the thing. I mean, of course you do have to be careful, like for the people in the park. Like some, like you do have to be careful of like, you know, whatever. But babies

love dogs and it's nice to get them used to dogs as well. Yeah, I think I sound like I'm being really anti-like mum's in the park. I'm not being at all. And I also have a very specific view because Bua is really good with kids. But that's quite interesting in the of itself because sometimes kids will come up to Boa and she's absolutely fine with it but it's like if she wasn't um yeah we've probably opened a can of worms there oh well um we we made it we love we're just crazy dog moms doesn't mean we don't love human children what is your second awkward oh myself i just such an idiot okay so i got an email i got an email from the hospital about my baby scan my baby scans yeah my scams um and i got

an email and it was like because i have to have my cis scans as well they were like Is there any reason that you haven't booked in the following scans? Um, and I replied. I was like, um, I did actually. And I sent a screen grab and I was like, I actually replied on like the 28th of August, booking it in or whatever. And then I sent the screen grab and then as I sent the screen grab with a kind of like, um, I think you'll find I did.

Sassy. Um, it wasn't, it wasn't not nice at all. It was very nice, but it was just like, I was like, a bit of sats. A side of slats. I was like, oh my God, so, I'm so sorry for the confusion. as per my email below you can see I did I did actually book it

yeah and then I sent the email and then I looked back at the email and I realised that I had sent the email to myself oh you dick the 28th of August I was like yeah I would love to be there

on the 20th of the one day or whatever I was like thank you so much and then I had to send a reply literally like third second page I was like oh my god I am so sorry I am a massive job I am a dick yeah

and then I put like way too many kisses at the end of the second email and made that weird I was like oh my god I'm so sorry like what we're like ha ha ha ha like lo loo please forgive me

yeah kiss kiss kiss and the moment just replied to you like no worries you book you in please leave me alone you fucking nutter

I just want to book your scans so yeah I just felt like a massive idiot it's just so vastly it's funny you do that thing and I actually did it as well I posted a reel. I had it on the same day, I think, I posted a reel, I posted an ad on Instagram and I posted it three times. Oh, I saw that saga. And you know when everything just gets really

hot and cold at the same time? Like I had it twice that day because I had it then and then I had it at the email time as well and you're just like, oh God, I hate that feeling. I hate that feeling. Your blood is, oh, I hate it. Yeah, hot and cold. Well, I'm glad you brought the orchids because mine is just a very quick. It's an oldie, but a goodie. It's not old, but it's just a classic forever awkward and something that shouldn't be that awkward, but it is. So we've come to Cyprus, my mum and dad live here, so I've come to visit them, went out for dinner on the first night and there are loads of us here because my family's just so fucking big. And went out for dinner and the waiter served me, my food. And I said thank you about seven times, because that's

that's obviously my thing and then he was like no worries enjoy your food and I said you too then that's it and do you know what it's just one of those things that will never not be embarrassing and it's just it's a very small thing yeah but it's still crushing and it didn't it didn't go and noticed and it's still it's still crushing yeah yeah it's just awkward isn't it I don't know it's just awkward I hate being a human sometimes you too have a good trip you too you too you too it's just awkward yeah Um, so there we go. Do you speak?

Absolutely not. Greek, no. Greek. Or if you're in the Greek bit or in the Turkish bit and then I was like, I don't know if there's a middle bit where I could, I could comfortably be like, do you speak Cyprian? But as I was saying it, I was like, I don't think, I don't think this is going to come out how I want it to. No, I don't. I don't. It's a different alphabet, so I'm not there yet.

my mom used to work in Greece my mom's like literally worked everywhere like everywhere she said oh yeah when I was working like Burger King in Denmark and oh yeah when I was working and like the bars in Greece I know it's so weird I think the only she only knows some like very random

and very offensive expressions she's like she knows all like the bar ones like all the drinks and the food orders and like the money ones but then she knows like you have a tiny dick or fuck off you asshole Oh, wow. Yeah, just some really randomly offensive Greek sentences. She's like, oh, they're really helpful in your bartending.

I was like, cool, I bet you've got loads of tips. I need to up my game then. I totally need to up my game. Yeah, I'm sure she could hook you up. I remember her teaching me before I went, I went on my, like, I went on a girl's trip to Zach and Doss when I was like 18. And I remember teaching me all these like really offensive sentences. I love that. I went to Zanty, had the best time in my life.

Zanty is Zach and Daz. and so did I obviously that's so funny you don't mind your face yeah my auntie's just like the English word for it yeah my auntie's buried there

obviously or her ashes so scattered there because my mum my auntie used to live there one of my aunties the one that died like ages and ages ago she used to yeah she used to live there which is while my mum used to work out there

because she'd go out and like see heli and yeah so her ashes are all scattered there but in the north of the island and where we went it's like the south bit which is like the strip and the chaos so I think we had quite different experiences absolute chaos but best holiday in my life look you've learned something

should we go back I know that I literally don't know that do you want to go we could go to Zach and Dost Zanti oh my god we'll go out on the street I know I'm about to be a mother and you're 34 but like we could go like to the strip at 34 I am not going back to Zanti to revisit my 18 year old

just left school getting pissed as I can like trying to snog 17 boys in a night as you should yeah I remember you had to take your own towel to the hotel we were staying in the night my mum gave me one of my brother's towels and it had Bart Simpson on it

and after my first shower on the first day I hung it up outside the room to dry on the little balcony thing which just was on the main road and then someone just stole my towel and I didn't have a towel for the rest of the trip oh sad

I know and I had my brother's name in it so someone someone It's got like a Finlow, Finlow Bart Simpson towel. That's a really like bottom of the barrel thing to steal, you know? I know. It's like, why are you doing this? Like it's got Bart Simpson, it's probably a child. It isn't, it's mine, but it's probably a child.

It's really bottom of the barrel. I mean, come on. Oh, we had such a good trip. My friend, and my roommate, my friend was sick in her bed, in her, in her pillow on the first side. And so gorgeous. It was so gorgeous. I just, I remember my friend's eyes. rolling back in her head on the first night and I was like oh we've gone too far we've like

we've pushed it too hard too soon this is not good and we have to go to sleep right now oh my god yeah I actually like I'm already like as if my I mean they can't stop you when you're 18 but also like like worth I know I know I know I know we did one like cultured we did one nice thing where we went out for dinner to like a plate smashing dinner you know like a traditional Greek restaurant but the rest of it was like obscene like we just ate like I think the only proper meal we ate was like we had the crisps before we went out and then we had like two or three a m pizza slices and then that was sort of that terrifying it was bad it was so bad I like I remember I like cut my glass in the club and like cut my glass cut my foot on glass in the club and then like hobbled home and I left like

I trail blood like all over the hotel and all the way to our room and for some reason we slept with the door open and then my other friends who were staying in the other room the next day were like oh my god they just followed this trail of blood and our door was open oh it's just it was sorry everything's coming flooding back and I've got anxiety did you ever watch sun sex and suspicious parents yes I always watched that and I thought why are you still behaving like that when you've got a television crew following you like even though like Like, your mum's in the next door room. She's still going to see this imminently.

Yes. They just don't fucking care. They're just like, rah! I feel let out. I'm loose. To be honest, I don't think my parents, I don't think there's anything I did that maybe it's because my parents are just very, woo!

Or maybe it's because I was a bit of a dry shite, but we just, I don't think I don't think I'd have done anything like raucous enough that I'd have been too. embarrassed. If they'd have paid for the trip, like if ITV or MTV or whoever it was had paid for the trip, I might have, I might have gone for it. But no, actually, I wouldn't have, I wouldn't have, and not because of my parents, but just because imagine now, 10 years later, knowing that that clip of you exists, like just picture the scene, that clip exists, because it's only a matter of time until somebody finds it and puts it on TikTok and your life's ruined. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would

not. I probably, no, I would not have done that. Absolutely not. Not with my parents, no way. No way. No, not what your parents are like. No, no what you're like about your parents are like. Just know that you're a massive pussy. My mom, my mom said the other day, um, yeah, I am a pussy. My mom said the other day, um, we were all sat around. She was like, oh, have any of you, have you ever, any of you ever had a puff of a cigarette? She's like, I've never had a, I've never had a puff of a cigarette. I was like, oh, oh, oh, I don't want to. answer this. I really, really don't want to answer this. No comment. You're with a cigar under the table. Like, I don't know what you're talking about. I keep dreaming that I'm smoking. It's really

bad. Like, I wake up in the morning and I'm like, oh my God, like, what have I done? Like, the poor baby. And it happens, it's literally happening like every night. And in my dream, I know it's bad, but I'm still, I'm still doing it. And I'm still doing it. And I, I'm, I'm like oh one or two won't hurt it's like famously it will but I obviously I'm not doing it probably will but like and I wake up every morning and I'm like and I have to like smell myself and like check everything and I'm like obviously I didn't get up and go to like it didn't happen the call shop yeah 3 a.m a pregnant woman showing up they'd just be like leave um in my sleep yeah that's not happening but like it's really bad dreams really annoying I can't trust

myself it's probably a bit of anxiety I think yeah I think it's just like I feel like I don't know I think I think I'm doing everything right but I think in my sleep or I don't know if I'm doing everything right God knows but like I'm trying to do everything right but then I think you just I don't know like I at the beginning with the pregnancy I used to wake up in the middle of the night like two in the morning and I'd be like to Alex would be like oh my God I haven't taken my pills or my iron pills or my sickness pills and my phonic acid or like and I'd get like these stupid panics like two in the morning and I'd go like looking around the room to make sure that you're sure I was taking the appropriate vitamins and I've got over that but now I wake up and I'm like

oh my god I had like a 20 pack of camel blues but I didn't do you have to take folic acid when you're pregnant yeah there's there's differing advice so you take it for the first trimest well some people say you only need to take it for the first trimester and you can stop taking it for the second and third because the baby's development is done or like the bait the sort of the the main bit that needs the folic, to my understanding, but then some midwives say to keep taking it. So I'm still, because I'm also taking ferretin for my low iron, I'm just still taking it. Okay. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. You're rattling, aren't you? I'm literally like a little pharmacy, but I'm not full of cigarettes, so that's good. I'll take it.

That's good. That's positive. It's a new dawn. It's a new day. I've really like swapped up. if the Zachanthos like siggy in one hand and vodka red bull in the other could see me now taking a folic acid and having nightmares she'd be so disappointing she'd be like what the

what have you done how could you I'm drinking freshly squeezed orange juice right now she would not even she would not even no she'd be like ugh if it's not full fat coat what's the point? I did not put in

all this hard work for you to just go and have a phone up with your health. Unbelievable. Yeah, exactly. So you're telling me I had 10 years of contraception for what? Right. Oh my God.

This is like 50 minutes long. Daisy's going to kill us. Yeah, today's guest. I am so excited. Yeah, call her what she is, Al. Go ahead. Yeah, feminist royalty. The guilty feminist herself, Deborah Francis White,

is on our podcast, which is quite weird, no? It's quite like weird that she actually agreed to do this. There's some people that I'm really intimidated to interview because I just think like they're the queen or king or what's the gender non-specific term for just like a royal? Anyway, she's just basically a baller at interviewing because obviously she's been doing it for like ever and she's so great and it's just like, oh, a quink. A quink. Sorry, I'll be thinking about that. I like it. yeah they are the quing of interviewing basically so it was just a bit intimidating but it was so good

and actually it didn't even end up being an interview it just ended up being a really good conversation and I felt like we were being lectured not in a bad way in a good way I felt like we'd just got to the coolest feminist lecture I've ever been to like I just felt like we learned so much I didn't really take my eyes off her at all and I even I had a muffin and a cup of tea and I didn't touch either because I was so like my aspire. With hindsight, thinking about how we,

thinking about the conversations that we had, because it was very much like she was teaching us stuff and we were learning, which I love, because I, like,

lives for learning, I love learning shit. But I was hyper aware that it's like, she might just be looking at us, like, we were just like too do-eyed, like,

teach us everything. And like, just like spacehopper eyes listening to her like, yeah, ooh. Yeah, it was quite, it was a bit intense.

Bit label on our part, but super cool, like, super cool. yeah exactly you guys all enjoy it um so yeah we just we mentioned at the beginning uh just if there's any problems with the audio we apologize we've recorded in a unique situation um but we're so excited with the contents of the interview that we think you'll enjoy it anyway how presumptuous that is very presumptuous of you we hope you'll enjoy but you never fucking

know and if you don't that's okay no it isn't no I said that's okay and I was like deeply deeply that is not okay with me I take it back speaking of that just before we kick you into the Deborah Francis White interview if you do enjoy the should I delete that podcast we would really appreciate a review note how I said if you enjoy it if you don't really don't bother please but if you do we would really appreciate some good reviews um so you can do that on Apple or Spotify or wherever you you listen to your podcast and we'd really appreciate it and we'll love you forever.

But for now, we hope that you enjoy the interview with feminist Quing, Debra Francis White. I'm like a monk. I've got great self-discipline. I'm like a monk. I've got great self-discipline. Yes. That is a statement. Like a monk, a monk like self-discipline.

No. I don't hear more. An inflated sense of self, I think. I need to hear more about this. Can we start recording so I can hear more about this? Yeah. Are we recording? Are we recording all this time? I think it's actually quite unlikely.

I think people don't, I think it's an unlikely thing that people would think about me. But I do, because I am quite not, my lifestyle doesn't perhaps demonstrate that I have a good, if you looked at me, you wouldn't think, oh, she's obviously got great self-discipline because I don't like wash my hair with any regularity or get dressed very nicely. But you're saying you don't exercise this self-discipline very often? That's probably what I'm saying. Can I just explain how self-discipline works? Yes. We've all got great self-discipline in theory. If we do not have it in practice, it's pointless.

It becomes moot. So that's like saying, I'm an amazing, I'm amazing at getting up at 5am and going for a run because I did it once. And it's like, yes, I am if I did it. But as I don't, I'm not. I think you've just pinned, you've got me. That this might be, that that's me to the letter. I'm amazing at everything, but I just never do it.

Right. Right, right, right. Why will die? I was going to ask you like we were going to ask you some other questions first but I actually, we've just been talking about this amongst ourselves anyway this is super heavy

just like I'm not even heavy it's just a massive thing to unpack but I just wondered as because I have loved you sorry weird for ages I've read your book and listened to podcasts I think you're great

Is this a declaration of romantic love I'm about to fall to my knee Yeah I have a ring It's going to be stunning All our friends are behind this Slash-proposal. Yeah, I've had great self-discipline. It's taken years to do.

We were just talking about how angry everybody is in the world right now, or in the UK right now. Like, it feels like there's just a lot of beef and, like, a lot of anger everywhere. And I feel like a lot of it's being directed at women. And we've looked at, like, the mega, and it always does,

but looking at Megamarkal, Camilla being put against, pitted against Diana, which is ridiculous, because it's about how Camilla's eight, you know, like they're putting photos of like 65-year-old Camilla and 30-year-old Diana anyway. Just everybody's so angry with these women.

And it just feels like a very frustrating time to be a woman. So I just want you to feel any thoughts on. Yes. Professional womaning is always a challenge because if you are, if you woman for a living, as many of these women do, you put yourself up in a limelight, in a public space, any misogyny. that would just be usually diluted and filtered into the world can be targeted in a series of hand grenades at which you have to dodge every single day of your life.

So somebody like Megan Markle, we were introduced to her as somebody beautiful, somebody successful, somebody marrying the more fun prints of the two. And then, of course, there's an added intersection there of race, which is a real cocktail for racist, misogynist, to attack. And what fascinated me on the last week, there was a headline, and I try and click on nothing about the Royals,

because then you get more stuff in your inbox, and it's all invented. But I was doing a project for the BBC where I needed to be looking at all these different new stories and the headline said Prince Harry didn't make it to the bowel moral in time before the Queen died

Megan decided to stay in London that was the headline and then I read the article and at the end it said Prince William, Prince Andrew and Prince Edward also didn't make it in time and Kate stayed in London to look after the children

conveniently omitted so what this story is is none of the Queen's children or grandchildren, I don't know, they didn't say anything about Anne, but none of the Queen's sons, bar, Prince Charles, got there in time. So obviously it wasn't expected, or they would have been there. Obviously, it happened really quickly. And both, Kate and Megan, stayed in London with their children.

That was the story. This is not a story. No. And also, it's someone else's family. We all know what it's like when someone's dying and, you know, the family and elderly relatives dying and people are trying to get there and should we go now and actually she's resting, it would be better if you came tomorrow.

We know what all that is like. So this was a total non-story. The headline is clickbait to get people specifically to hate Harry and Megan. There are so many of these manufactured stories. Obviously they're targeted more at women and obviously they're targeted more at black and brown women than they are at white women.

And we see this all the time. And we've got, we've just got to get better being media literate at going, well, how do you know this? On what basis are you saying this? Why are you manufacturing emotion in me? Did you know all our glamping units have a resort, quality, Canadian-made and eco-friendly bed? Since day one, we have proudly partnered with Colonna-based mattress company Haven, ensuring you have the best sleep possible. So it's just one more reason to visit us in the Boreal Forest. You can also try out a Haven mattress.

risk-free for 100 nights at havenmatress.ca. Do you think it's getting better or worse? Because I feel like it's getting worse, but I don't know if that's just because we're being so exposed to it. In some cases and some places and with some people better, and in some places, some people worse. Yeah. So I think we've made huge strides forward in feminism

in the last five to 10 years since I think feminism as a movement, got moving again. Of course there's always been hardworking feminists, but it came back into daily life and into the mainstream and into the mainstream conversation in conversations in living rooms, in pubs, not just in academic circles and activist circles,

around 2012 that started, 2015. I started the Guilty Feminist end of 2015. And 2012 was, and 2013 was the year Malala took a stand that nearly took her life. It was the, it was Chimamai. we should all be feminists, it was flea bag, it was, you know, a cat and morons, how to be a woman. There was a lot of different people, both in the mainstream, in the sort of popular space, but also in this significant act of a space at that time that started up the engine of feminism

again. And it's really taken off, and we can see that, you know, the reaction to Trump. Trump getting into power and the women's marches around the world and now the empire strikes back with Roe versus Wade being overturned and I don't know if you saw the new story yesterday but young women who as who overtly say they're going to vote Democrat are signing up to vote in record numbers never seen before in America. People are turning 18 and signing up on the day. They've never seen anything like it. So this is where sometimes the event that you think is the destruction of a movement ends up being a wave of pushback. And that

happens in both directions. That happens in both directions. The response to eight years of Obama was Trump. The response to Trump was the women's movement. Was Black Lives Matter was, we will not be forgotten. We will not be silenced. We will not be oppressed. the response to that, of course, is Roe v. Wade and heavier policing. The response to that is, of course, great numbers signing up to vote and, you know, and so on and so on. And what we need to do is be very alert and aware to the pushback when the Empire strikes back, and also extremely celebratory, engaged, positive and proactive when the wave is going the other way. Right.

Make something of it. That's a good point, actually, isn't it? is obviously the negative stuff that really comes to light and hits the mainstream and is at the forefront when actually there are positive things that don't necessarily get as much airtime. Exactly. That's a really good point.

I've never thought about that, actually. France has just announced it's making the morning after pill free. That's a response to Roe v. Wade. Yeah. So Roe versus Wade, sometimes people go, oh, well, that's happening in America, we need to be more local in our activism. Local is global and global is local now.

So when America does something like overturn Roe versus Wade calling into question and in some cases making illegal in some states a woman's right to choose, what happens is it immediately emboldened MPs, world leaders, who would like to eradicate abortion. So we saw it immediately in Britain, various MPs came out and said, oh, well, we should be rethinking it. Oh, well, I agree with Australia the same all over the world that happens. Trump's era, Trump's administration, emboldened a kind of radically dishonest politics around the world.

What Boris Johnson could get away with saying, there were no parties at number 10, here's a picture of a party. Oh, well, I didn't know about any parties at number 10. Here's a picture of you at the party. didn't know I was at a party, I thought I was at a work event. Here's a picture of you with a glass of rosé in your hand, throwing a head back in laughter while you talk to someone else who holds rosé and there's no work in evidence here. That was the end of a work event where there were some drinks. So that was an after, what would we call it? After work, can you have drinks? You call it an after party. We would still call that a work event. I was a

It's not a way. I'm just like, well, if you, I've heard of not being able to organize a piss up in a brewery, but to not identify, not to be able to identify that you are in fact at a piss up in a brewery rules you out from being prime minister. You can't tell when you're at a party. But that's a radical dishonesty because it's, it's even in the face of you being shown evidence, not saying, oh, actually, yes, I didn't think it was, you know, this is the reason we did that, but I didn't think it was wise to say. and yeah, I lied, I've been caught out, whatever it is. It's unforgivable, I'm really sorry. Yeah. Just going, no, what you're seeing with your eyes isn't a real thing. And that's Trump, Trump's allowed to that. Trump's emboldened that.

You can't just have Trump floating on his own in a vacuum because after Trump, nothing any world leaders, nothing any world leader in the West does seems radical anymore. Right, yeah. It's like comparatively it's, yeah. Because it seems ridiculous anymore. You know, like the tweets that he would do were so absurd. And he'd pick fights with North Korea on Twitter and stuff.

You're just going, what are you doing? So any kind of foreign policy slash diplomacy that's not actually threatening to nuke North Korea now seems better than that. And so now we're settling for bottom of the barrel, but not borrowing to the core of the earth, to the earth's lava core, which is what Trump did. So that's my concern is that we're in a new era of politics where duplicities out in the open and it's like, oh, well, that's what we expect from politicians. No, we should expect integrity. But at least if they've obviously been caught in a lie

for us all to look at it and say, The Emperor has no clothes, that is a lie. Yeah. We were saying this before. Like, that's a very interesting thing at the moment is it feels like everybody's so angry with the government, but it's like we've been so fucking angry. And like, probably like, this is crazy.

for such a long time, but particularly with the Conservatives, now it's been 12 years, and it's just like they just rotate new people in until you've got someone that nobody wants. And so you feel like all this anger, but what's almost what's the point in being angry? Because you can be furious at Boris. Like you say, you can say all of this stuff. But the interesting thing I found in the last couple of weeks as well, and this is before the Queen died to only happen for like a day. But when Liz Truss was appointed, she appointed Theresa Coffey,

as a health minister and she was fucking torn to shreds for how she looks and everyone been like she can't be health minister because look at her and it was a glass of her holding a champagne and a cigarette

and it was like oh my god like are we okay because the previous health minister did an interview the telegraph and he was like I love a cigarette and then there's Matt Hancock

always pictured with the pint and then obviously Ken Clark was like a while back but like super famous for his like cigar loving life Michael Gove, like, all this picture of like 2 a.m. in the morning. And that's been really interesting as well, watching the way that we're policing. And I do not like Therese Coffey.

I think there's, well, I did a video about this person, much more concerned. Her voting record is a better reason to hate her than for what she looks like or to think she's ill-equipped to be health minister, namely because of her voting against abortion every chance she's had, which is terrifying. But very interesting looking at the comparison between Trump. Like Trump, like you say, being idiotic, Boris being idiotic. And then the Finnish Prime Minister, who they drug tested after that video of her dancing at a nightclub came out.

That was so absurd. So absurd. But it's like, but people are really doing that. And it's like she really had to prove that she wasn't on drugs when they found literal cocaine in Downing Street. Oh, I mean, as if, as if there isn't, hasn't been a long history of coked up, ministers walking through, the House of Commons working all hours and partying all hours. And it's like a boys club in there.

It's like, I don't know if you've ever been to any events. or anything in the House of Commons, but it's got a real feel of a, for me, the times that I've been there, I was there the night that someone stole the golden snitch. Do you remember this?

The mace, there's a, it's basically a big stick with a ball on the top. And I think it was in protest for Brexit being pushed through or something. It was like a nighttime session

and an MP stole it. And it's something ceremonial, you know, a typical hogwartian bit of pageant in the House of Commons. Somebody nicked it, ran off with it as a protest against Brexit or something

ridiculous. But I was there that night there was a drinks event for women there. It was invited by an MP and it was extraordinary. It was extraordinary. Like everyone was running down to sea into the chamber

and it felt like such public school jink, hijinks, you know, really like boarding school. Oh, do you know what's happening in the chamber? and people running down and like laughing and then afterwards on the way back I heard somebody say what's for putt and someone said like plum pudding or something like oh yum you know and I thought a lot of these people went from a boarding school like a lot of these let's be honest a lot of these men went from a boarding school to Oxford or Cambridge and it's exactly

the same the Oxford Union it's all backstabbing and hijinks and lulls and in my memory No one at the Oxford Union, which is the debating club, if listeners don't know what it is, it's the debating club that acts like a student union, but it's much more political than a normal student union. It's much more like practice playtime for the House of Commons, because that's where so many of our prime ministers and cabinet ministers went to university, certainly historically, but it hasn't changed that much. And it was playtime for when you're going to be in the House of Commons, like having. a little go with it. And the backstabbing that went on, I don't remember anyone really caring about politics. It wasn't like so much left and right. It was like who could get in. It was really politics of the self and the identity. Because I don't remember it. Like normal student unions,

you have to have a manifesto and things like that. And I just remember it. Maybe they did, but my memory of it was who was going to make an alliance, who was going to, at the last minute, somebody would say, I'm going to support you. And at the last minute, they'd go, I'm going to run for president myself, having secretly ployed all this support. And it really reminded me that night of what's for putt, really reminded me of the Oxford Union. I was like, everyone here is playing not everyone. Many people here are playing the playing out the power that they rehearsed in elite schools and universities around this country. And it's not really about policy. It's It's about interpersonal politics and the love of that, the machinations of that,

the play of that, the joy of that, the kind of did you hear, the gossip of that, which way are you voting and can I count on your support? And that's why I think we are where we are. And when you get politicians who are there because they want to change things, the Maori blacks, the Stelichristi, You know, who the Diane Abbott's who were like, I don't like it how it is. Can I make it different? If I went in there, how would it be?

How could I? What could I change? Sela Cresi is always changing something. Like, she's always working. She's just constantly trying to make an actual change. And I'm sure to do that, you need to make alliances and you need to get people in your corner. And I'm not saying she's not, she doesn't know how to be a politician and do those things.

But I'm saying it's about why she's, why she's doing what she's doing, how transparent she is, is a different quality. It doesn't matter if you agree with everything Stella wants to do and that's, we shouldn't all agree with absolutely everything

everybody else says and wants to do, you know, there should be debate and pluralism in our society, but there is no doubt in my mind that she wants to change things for the better and that is transparently what she is doing. No. And that's why we just would be so great if we scrapped the whole thing almost

and started again and said how do we get people with vision to come in and really have a go to changing things. Yeah. Because it does just feel like musical chairs now. So you just like and I don't, I don't understand why people,

why you can be a health minister when you were like education like two minutes ago or whatever. Like it doesn't make any sense. Like a teacher needs to be the head of education. A doctor or a consultant needs to be ahead of how it doesn't make any sense they do that in america there's it's much more special advisors who have expertise but then america is so corrupt it's shocking so let's take it back to

the beginning a bit sorry listeners we went in we went in at the deep end there um but so to take it back a little bit you i mean the guilty feminist i'd love for you to explain what is a guilty feminist why are you a guilty feminist how did that come to be so the guilty feminist is a podcast about our noble goals as 21st century feminists and our hypocrisies and insecurities which undermine those goals. So we always start with I'm a feminist butt where we confess something. And it's like a fun exfoliation of any guilt we're carrying, lest it linger on the body and that guilt becomes shame. Because shame is luggage. You have to carry shame around. And we don't want to be heavy. So we just go, you know, women are taught to feel guilty for everything. If you have kids

and a job, wherever you are, you feel like you should be in the other place. And then if you're somehow managing to balance those two, well, you're not a good enough daughter, you're not a good enough friend, you know, did you hear that Sharon's running a marathon and raising money for breast cancer care? Are you doing that? No, you're not. If you are, self-care, have you done any self-care? Have you done any self-care? Have you done any self-care this week? I mean, you should be doing more self-care. Whatever it is, whatever it is that you're doing, you should be doing something else. And I, in some ways, felt feminism would become another thing to feel guilty about.

Now, you're not a good enough feminist. Did you go to that march? Did you stay on that march? And so one of the first things I ever confessed, which is a true story, is I'm feminist, but one time I went on a women's rights march, popped into a department store to use the loo, got distracted trying out face cream when I came out in the march was gone. Like gone. There was no evidence of the march at all.

So I just had to put my sunglasses on, put my sign in a bin, and walk away very fast. I know you have the sign. I'm walking around with a sign, yeah. I think it was Reclaim the Night or something like that. I don't have been reclaimed the night because maybe it's an evening thing. The point is I reclaimed the anti-aging face cream more than the night. Nothing wrong with aging, gang.

Nothing wrong with aging, despite what the creams will tell you. But also, I prefer not to do it. And that's the dichotomy. that's the terror because I don't make the rules about women in the industry aging I don't make those rules and so and I've been seduced by the patriarchy all my life since I was a child by seeing images on billboards so while we're working on reimaging ourselves while we're working on representation and shifting our own perception of ourselves and our own place and society how much space we're allowed to take up how much how much influence we're allowed to have how angry we're we're allowed to be. While we're shifting on all of those things, there are residual anxieties and hypocrisies and insecurities that we carry. So the first thing is we get those out on the table, we laugh at them and we discover that if everybody laughs in the audience, because it's always in front of a live audience bar the lockdown, if everyone laughs, then lots of people have this,

in which case it probably doesn't matter, let it go. If it does matter, if we decide actually that's not great, that is holding me back, or that is something that perhaps doesn't take into account somebody else's marginalisation, then let's work on it. Same thing. Put it on the table and then build muscle. Let's pick up some weights. Let's change this. Carrying it, holding it, making it a secret, whatever it is. I was from a Felicity Ward, who's a brilliant comedian who comes on our podcast a lot. she said that her therapist told her that avoidance is the maintenance of any problem so if you won't look at it

oh god that's gone like straight through to my soul that was a while ago right yeah yeah yeah but I say it a lot and I can you repeat it avoidance it's gone right through me it's true it's me sorry sorry you've got incredible self-discipline though so you don't need to worry I have terrible self-discipline endeavor that was a lie Self-describe a monk, you told me. A monk.

I was lying. I'm a hypocrite. Ah, well, there you go. I'm trying to spot. I have a T-shirt that the journalist Anabal Rivkin gave me that just says happy hypocrite on it. And I'm just like, this is lean in. Yeah, avoidance is the maintenance of any problem. And so everything we're avoiding and not looking at, we are continuing the problem.

So we know we've got a problem with something, but we won't look at it. And I'm a terrible one for just going, just pretend it's not there. Me too, head in the sand. My favourite place to be. It's so easy, isn't it, just to go. If I don't look at that inbox, if I don't think about that problem,

if I just keep pretending it's not real. So, like, going back to then this, like, dichotomy and the opposing sides of us, one side, like, for me, for example, one side of me that I am a feminist. and I strongly believe that and I strongly lean into that but then on the other side of me like I am obsessed with makeup like I love my like cute little clothes like I love my skincare I love doing my hair I love all of this stuff like how do we reconcile those how do we reconcile those perceived

hypocrisies and maybe you'll say they aren't hypocrisies but they feel like they are I don't feel they are. I think in that instance, you loving clothes and design and makeup, I mean, animal, human beings love to decorate. It's one thing that separates us from the animals. You're decorating. Decorating myself. I love that. Human beings, it's, it's, you know, anthropologically speaking, what you're doing is decorating, individualizing, creating. now there was a period in history when men were more decorated than women and sometimes I can't believe

the patriarchy let us have makeup because they usually steal all the good stuff for themselves and how we ended up with sequins and glitter and sealer I don't actually don't know the pharaohs were gilded all through all through here I'll tell you I do know actually I do know what happened So here's an example, high heels were very masculine

And it was because Middle Eastern soldiers were seen to be They were the really amazing horsemen, really amazing fighters Everyone wanted to be a Middle Eastern horseback soldier Because they were the coolest They invented high heels to keep their feet in the stirrups Nice, right? Yes So then when they came over on tours, I guess I don't know like boy band tours to Europe, they had these high heels on.

They'd get off their horse in high heels and they'd be sashing in and all of the European men would be like, oh my God, they're so masculine, they're so cool. I want the high hills. I can get my cobbler to make me some high heels. So I look like a Middle Eastern soldier because then everyone's going to think I'm great. So then men, the fashion became, you're a real man if you're in high heels. Then there was this period where women started to want to look like men dressed like men I think it was just like a fashion thing.

They started wearing high heels and smoking pipes. And it was probably a fashion thing because men got to do cooler stuff. Also, it was probably some queer and gender queer women slash people. And they were like, you know, going, yeah, look, I'm as cool as a guy, I'm in high heels. Look at my pipe. Then, when you had the American Revolution and the French Revolution, at that point, the very wealthy who could spend a lot of time and money dressing up, you know, looking gorgeous, you know, men at that point wore very beautiful coloured frock coats, makeup, there was, you know, wigs, there was all sorts that was, you know, very very, very beautiful. front coats, makeup, there was, you know, wigs, there was all sorts that was, you know, very superficial and very cosmetic.

If you're a revolutionary, you don't have time for that. Revolutionary is about getting stuff done. You're out there with a musket in your hand trying to equalise power, trying to get justice. And so at that point, masculinity issued the, you know, You know, the aristocrats, they're all sitting around being fancy, and we're the real men because we're the ones taking back power and fighting for equality. It was at that point that masculinity defrocked, deflowered,

and at the same time, Queen Victoria didn't like makeup for anybody, thought it was ungodly and unnecessary and was very po-faced about it. So everyone stopped wearing makeup. up and then after a while I think Prince Albert died she was up at Balmoral for ages and some of the women were like she's been gone a long time do you think it'd be all right just have a bit of blush you're like it and it's a little bit of concealer so women took makeup up again men never did then it became feminine really so that's fascinating you're not a revolutionary because you have the time to put makeup on but you're completely fine to do it

but okay so putting that's I mean I don't think it's on feminist I think caring for yourself and decorating is human and it is human to be woman so you know it's woman to be human like I just sometimes we get so caught up in our identity we forget the deep down in all of us is a human being you know and sometimes a certain sort of man gets to be neutral and human and that's the kind of every man type guy that you see in movies it's like we can all relate to Seth Rogen being a bit of a numpty and it's not a man's movie and it's not it's just a human being it's you know jimmy stewart you know it's a wonderful life it's like the avatar for humanity tends to be a human being who is white

a human being who is masculine a human being who is heterosexual human being who is not in a wheelchair human being you know that's uh gender conforming etc etc um inside every woman is a human being And I think that's why Fleabag was such a hit. I think Fleabag was such a hit. And a lot of people are, oh, she's very posh. But the thing is, loads of people said, well, I'm not very posh. And I feel like I'm Fleabag. I remember there was a man who said, well, I'm a working class,

gay man in a wheelchair, and I am Fleabag. Yeah. And I think the reason, I mean, she was posh because Phoebe was, you know, not appropriating a class that she couldn't fully represent. But I don't, it wasn't about being posh. And it wasn't about being female. although she is female and she doesn't throw that off

in some films now like a woman she's like she's so feminist she's basically a man it's like she karate's her way out of everything she punches her I don't know that many women punched their way out of situations or that good of karate

we talk her way out of situations she's so she's unapologetically female and feminine however if that's not what the show's about The show's about her humanity. Deep down, it's about the fact that deep down inside it,

every woman, there is a human being who wants to feed and fuck. There's a human being who is lonely, who is hungry, who is horny. And we got to see the humanity. Whereas previously we got to see characters like Bridget Jones. Richard Jones was wonderful in her time. Like, I'm not having to go with Bridget Jones. But we only got as deep as femininity as womanhood. Do you see what I mean?

oh but I'm counting calories oh but I'm feeling like I should be more of a I should be more composed or more dignified or more of what a woman should be and Fleabag was much more concerned with feeding her humanity

than feeding an idea of womanhood I'm so sorry I'm not so many things I know same just because you're so right about characters being boxed and I really want to talk about that because I actually think it's so interesting but I just want to go back to something that you were talking about before with the hypocrisy.

And what you were saying out, like I don't know if it's, I think maybe because we both worked in journalism before, but you obviously for a lot longer, beauty, but still, now we both work as influences and podcasts and whatever. And I think there's a very specific view of influences, like it's a female-led career and it's obviously considered very vacuous and silly. and it's sort of this sometimes and that's just fine but I you get tripped up a lot I get tripped up a lot like there's a lot of people who actively try and trip us up

where it's like you'll you know we would you identify as a feminist or whatever like obviously but and people go oh yeah but you did this and so and I wonder if that's something that you contend with

or if because you literally start the episodes with I'm a feminist button you kind of not trip yourself up but allow When you confess something, no one accuses you of it. Yeah. Whereas I think there's a massive pressure on a lot of women to do it all perfectly.

Well, not on all women to do everything perfectly. My show is about, the thesis of my show is you don't have to be perfect to be a force for meaningful change. Yeah. But do you contend with it in your life? Do people, do you have, because I find it a lot with men who'll try and have a conversation. Sometimes women who I know are projecting their own shortcomings, perhaps that they feel that they have with them. But you get it a lot with men where they wait to catch you out on something or doing something. Oh, well, there you go.

You're not the feminist that you think you are. Occasionally, I have to say, I've been very lucky with the listeners of my show, I think, come in good faith. Occasionally, I notice, like, a week or two after an episode comes out, a certain community will find out about it. I know they're not regular listeners because they complain two weeks later on that. Like somebody's been on guilty feminist watch and then, but it tends not to be people in my community so much. And to be honest, like, if a men's rights activist has a go at me, they're not, they're not on my team. No. It's not hurtful.

It's to be expected. Like, if you're going to be, like feminism is a demand for change. The patriarch is a demand for the status quo to get more, more samey or in fact even regress. I notice, though, I will say this, I don't hear any men's rights activists saying that the vote should be taken away from women. Whatever rights that existed when you were born, they're your normal.

So when further rights are applied for, people go, oh, you're asking for that? Do you see what I mean? So the patriarchy is a demand for the status quo. Everything should stay the same. feminism is a demand for change and demands for change always look angry than demands for things to stay the same

because if I say I'm comfortable here and you go I really want to go you're the one that has to evoke the change I'll be like guys don't make such a fuss let's stay here right so you're the fuss makers because we are where we are so if if people from another team come for me

generally if anything that means my community will stand around me and stand up for me so it and a lot of this is about who's on your team like how your team operates are you accepted in your team nearly all internet politics is about making sure there's enough people around you who are going to protect you and look after you and make you feel like you're part of something and so the internet gets very polarised very them and asks very quickly and instead of having a nuanced conversation and going but can you see from my point of view or can you see from the

point of view of this marginalised group. Yes, but what about this marginalised group? Instead of, what about how I'm feeling? In a pub, you might have a argument, but there would be all sorts of facial expressions and tones of voice that would say, I'm still a human being and you're still a human being. And on the internet, it becomes polarised very quickly. So it's rare, I mean, it does happen. Sometimes people have a go at me for the strangest things. And I, you know, I, but it's not really from the podcast. It's something on Twitter. I barely go on Twitter anymore because I'm just like, it's such a flammable place. I can't. I deleted my Twitter. It's just too mean. It's very mean. And nothing good comes of it in my, I mean, no, that's not true.

Loads of good stuff comes from it. And I learned a lot big on Twitter. But I couldn't, I couldn't wait. Yeah, I couldn't maintain it. It was just too painful. But yeah, it sounds like it's a mix of number one, I guess you expose yourself up front with like, here are my hypocrisies with literally your tagline, which is I'm a feminist, but, and then also your community is probably very o'fay with the nuances of feminism, whereas ours less so. But I think as well, we're at a very interesting point with influencing as it is. I mean, because influencing in itself is a ridiculous like I don't think it's got a lot of longevity because it's like what you said about professional womaning it's like you put a woman up and it's just like nobody wants

her to succeed for that long because we just were not used to it so like there's kind of that context to everything which just makes it incredibly uncomfortable but I also think we exist in a space that's like we have to be perfect and if you do a little bit of good you have to do everything good if you eat you know like meat free Mondays why aren't you a full vegetarian if you recycle your plastic bottles but this doesn't count because you went to the Bahamas last year so it's like we do trip which is why I come across I come up against this question a lot because I talk about body confidence and body acceptance and anti-diet culture and on the other side I'm obsessive makeup and I'm people ask me I'm going to share it and I like sharing it I like

talking about it so I guess then that feels like a huge for people and and I struggle to reconcile it as well. But it's not going to answer it. It's not my job to answer it. No, but I think personally I struggle as well

because of the beauty industry being like, you know, it upholds the patriarchy because it keeps us like busy and obedient and quiet and keeps us, you know, making ourselves look pretty

spending time and energy and money even though that's something that I enjoy doing and is like you said a form of self-expression but I also think people like to decorate themselves. People have tattoos.

People like to do their hair in different styles. That's always been the case. Anthropologically speaking, it's always been the case that people have decorated themselves and their nest, whatever that nest is. Nobody would have a go at you because you're saying, do you know what? I really fancy new curtains in this room and I've got great idea that I've just got to get a big red piece of sweeping velvet because they're going to look really dramatic. No one's going to go, vacuous, but you're decorating your window. Why are you not allowed to decorate your eyes? I don't understand. How are those things different? also what I will say is common practices that are seen as femme are often diminished

and so if you're I've I've seen this a lot with children it's like she didn't want to come as a princess to this party she insisted on coming as spider ban I mean she's just such a little feminist I can't stop her it's it's a smugness yeah it's like she wanted to come in a masculine in guys. But Elsa is magical. I'm so sorry about this noise. We're in a full bowling alley, guys. This is just... Absolutely. You're listening at home,

you can probably hear a bowling alley going on in the background. And every time they shout strike, it's a strike against the patriarchy. Let's think of it that way. Superheroes often have magical powers, and so do a lot of the fairies

and princesses that we see. uh there's equally a struggle but but we somehow more pleased if our little girl doesn't want to be femme and i think there is a somehow a femme is less so here's an example action films tend to be better respected than romantic comedies yeah so true because punching and shooting is better than love why why well because women tend to be the audience for lots of obviously there's lots of of gender crossover, but we think of women enjoying romantic comedies and men enjoying action films. Therefore, action films will more likely to be discussed in a serious way on film podcasts or more likely to win things. And I'm questioning that. I remember Harry Stiles saying

somebody said early on, I think, when he went solo, something about all your fans being teenage girls and he said and why is the taste of teenage girls not as important as the taste of middle age three yeah so teenage girls made the Beatles right yeah so why why are we why are we assuming because teenage girls like something it's not a good thing and so I would say that in terms of makeup it's like well it's so girly it's it's unimportant it's like but well why is I don't understand though football is so important in this country and it's given so much weight and heft because it's important to a lot of people like objectively if you pull out in terms of the climate crisis in terms of you know

the equality what's it really doing for the world where you could say well as long as it's fighting for equality of players and blah blah whatever whatever yes women are coming up you know lionesses are being taken really seriously now because they keep bringing football home where men can't et cetera, et cetera. But ultimately, you're trying to get a ball from one end of a park to another end of a park. It's not in itself a noble goal. What you're doing is you're looking at the skill of those men or women or non-binary people. That's what you're doing. But football's important because we decide as a society it is. And so I, what I would suggest is that we sometimes pull back and reassess and say if it's important to you and if it's important to

other women you know, then it's important. Yeah. Where I would say it's useful to reassess is if you wear high heels all the time and you find them uncomfortable, but you go, but I do it for me. I do it because I like it. I know it's patriarchal, but I do it because I like, have a little go at saying I'm not going to wear heels for three months and I'm just going to bog stand and turn up in flats to see how that feels. At the end of three months you really miss your heels, then that's

your choice as opposed to the conveyor belt of life pushing you ever onward, squeezing your feet into more and more painful positions. But probably at the end of that three months, if you think you can't not wear heels, at the end of that three months you go, oh, it's really great wearing flats. And actually, I found some really great looks for myself. Now I'm going to wear heels when I want to, not because I think I have to. And I would say the same with makeup. I would say the same with anything you're squeezing yourself into. Have a break from it for three months and then go back to it and you will find there will be times when you choose it and you probably by default won't choose it all the time. That might be shaving under your arms.

That might be all sorts of things that you think you do because you have to, you suspect might not be very feminist and have a go with it. Like, I like the feeling of being waxed. I like, it makes me feel alive and ready to fight the patriarchy. Yeah, what is that? I love it. What feels so good about it? Because it feels so good. It does. It does. It's probably a bit masochistic, I don't know, but there's a feeling, afterwards, I feel so smooth. I feel like that. Yeah, I didn't mean the actual process of it because that I find, like, absolutely despicable. I'm sorry, that's just me. Bob. I don't like it. It's Bob Array. to me but afterwards that smooth feeling I'm like oh it's just gorgeous that's so gross

is it sorry the action that you gave us as you shot like the slippery sorry sorry I also thought you were talking about your funny I was I was yeah okay fine not great sorry you do what you want you're free I like the feeling of being I'll tell you when I didn't like it though in lockdown I hadn't been waxed for so long and then when we were allowed we weren't allowed out yet but we were allowed people in. If you're allowed one person, you know, you're allowed to have someone come over

and do your hair or you were allowed to go over to one person before the cellans were open. And I had, there's an app called Blow and there's another app called Secret Spa.

Yeah. People can come to your house and I was desperate for wax. I have never felt such pain and it's because the longer you go without one, you're not building up that resistance. So normally if I have one

every six weeks or eight weeks or something like that, I don't have them all the time, but like, oh, you get a build up resistance. Oh, My God, I was screaming. I was so...

But mind you, the woman... Because I hadn't touched it. I hadn't touched it. The woman was so happy, I can't even tell you. She was like, I've seen so many... Because she was going to other people's houses. Obviously, everyone was desperate. Who...

Everyone who likes waxing was desperate to be waxed. And she said, I've seen the worst things. She said, you've no idea what I've seen. She said, she said, I'll never get over what I've seen in the last week. She said, people have done hundred jobs. they've she said there's been so much restoration and work repair jobs she said it's just been absolutely shocking and i said i haven't touched it she said that was the right thing to do you don't shave it no home waxing kits you just absolutely leave it and she said and so she really

enjoyed it it was like deforestation she was there for a while yeah there were little tiny elephants losing their habitat was terrible um but she said you did exactly the right thing but i was screaming in pain and normally i genuinely do like the feel of a wax i'm like yeah it's bracing yeah i agree i quite i think it's bracing keeps good to feel alive it's like a cold brisk like a good walk exactly you know like a winter's day you come in your cheeks are all really rosy exactly a christmas day brisk war that's yeah that's the equivalent for me i really enjoy it same in my eyebrows yeah yeah exactly yeah go swimming in the eye It's like, oh, it's good for you.

Yeah, it's bracing. It was interesting actually during lockdown, just realizing that my, the way my mom, I remember her saying at the beginning, like, because obviously after we realized it was going on for a few weeks, because my nails were like overgrown and whatever, and I hated that. And then I was trying to get a home shalak it. And she was kind of like, oh, you know, why, why do you care? And I was like, I don't have a good answer for that. I don't know.

And we were then talking about, like, how we'd do if we ended up in on a desert island. and we were found in like a year and would you be recognisable? And I think my mum is of that generation no shade because she's like the strongest woman I know, best feminist in town but I've got that generation where we have a view of Botox

or filler of all this of hair extensions or whatever that's like it's like a badge of honour if you're natural which obviously is impossible because you can't win because nobody wants natural because we're not good enough

that's why they sell us all this shit to make us better. But then it was like you know would you look recognisable would you be, you know, if somebody showed up in a year, would they know it was you? And it was this real smugness for everyone in the house. Like, yeah, turns out I am supernatural, puff my eyebrows on my nails, I'm whatever. And I found that really interesting that three, because my sister was there and my best mate, four, very feminist women,

were still sitting there like, good for us, like how naturally great we are. And I hated that. As I'm saying, I was like, I hate myself for this. Like, why do I think I'm better than somebody that's got lip filler or, Botox or whatever, but I just, maybe it's because we just like to see beautiful women become less beautiful. I don't know. I know what you mean. And I do think all of those things, again, are if you're doing it, I understand it.

I understand it. I think as you get older, you can feel like, oh, I suddenly look less like myself. And if you're doing it to look more like yourself, we do all sorts of things. We can't colour our hair and colour our hair. And, you know, there are people who can't colour their hair all time and have tattoos. that then judge someone of having Botox. And I said, well, look, a tattoo is to make you feel on the outside more like you look on the inside. So is, you know, if somebody's genderqueer, gender fluid, sometimes they'll do something

to make themselves look on the outside more how they feel on the inside. So what I would suggest is if you feel on the outside, if you feel in the inside like you, you at 32, and that's the most you. felt like you and then later in life you're going oh i just my face has changed shape i don't look like myself anymore um i can absolutely understand where somebody might go oh that's that makes me feel more like me i think where the problem is is when you're trying to look completely like somebody else and somebody other because you think your body needs to be engineered to look like someone you've seen on the television and i think that's uh and again if that's what somebody

wants to do. I'm not interested in inhibiting other people's freedoms. And I think in terms of gender dysphoria, that's a completely different situation. And it is, it's, it's something that's, uh, important that that person does at times. And that's between them and, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, it's absolutely for them to make themselves as happy and whole as possible. And it is, it is, it is not even for me to engage your comment at that at all. I just want that person to be as happy and whole as possible and do what they need to do

in order for that to happen. But I think where young women are watching the Kardashians and going, I need to look like that. That's concerning. That's concerning because I just

think we just don't want to end up with one kind of beautiful. Yeah. It's so concerning. And I'm fucking doing it like i'm looking at the clips of chloe season two coming out and put the trailer out last night and i was like fucking hell like she looks unreal blah blah blah and then i'm like i'm doing it i'm like what the fuck is wrong with me why i'm they're doing that of course like she's she looks like a different human being like how sad but i i don't know really sad okay so your tagline

is i'm a feminist butt and you've had hundreds of people on your podcast and your live shows give their stories we'd like to know what your favorite one is what's the best one that you've heard I'm a feminist but oh I love this one Alison Spittal saying I'm a feminist but a girl pissed me off so much that I found out what her karaoke song was and got up and sang up before her She learnt it as well

I learned it so I'd be amazing at it That has got you written all over Alex Oh my God are you joking She said proud Mary And she said I practised it at home loads And then as soon as we got to the karaoke place I put my name down first and got up as soon as possible

so it was done. That's dedication. That's diabolical. I love it. There's a lot of effort. A lot of effort gone into. Also, Proud Mary is a horrible song to sing on karaoke. That'd be so hard.

It gets really, you know, vigorous. Well, there's probably a karaoke bar outside if you want to, on your way out, go on the health of skeletal to bowling alley. There's a bunch to do. You're getting out just before the karaoke starts. I mean, it's amazing we haven't had to contend with karaoke today. I know.

It's a miracle. It's the only thing that's missing. So the guilty feminist is about to turn seven. Do you have anything exciting coming up? Any plans? I am so glad you've asked because we do. On 3rd of December, we're doing a show called Camp as Christmas. The Guilty Feminist presents Camp as Christmas.

It's a full LGBTQ plus lineup. I'm co-hosting with Tom Allen. Susie Ruffel's doing it. Larry Dean's doing it. Rosie Jones is doing it. Sophie Duke is doing it. And there's some also big names that we're putting in the diary right now. Very, very exciting. And all the proceeds for that show go to Say It Loud, Say It Loud Club. And that is run for and by LGBTQ plus refugees fleeing homophobic oppression. So get your rainbow on and come down to that one because we're going to have the night of our lives. And there'll also be people from say it loud on stage talking about what they do. But it's just a big queer celebration.

Once a very important human rights activist told me the three things you need is resistance, resilience and joy. And joy is the one that most people leave out. And so this is a place to come and refuel with joy, laughter, campus Christmas on December 3rd at South Bank Center. But you can get tickets for all of these things as well as our upcoming Kings Police shows and other events around the country at giltyfeminist.com. Thank you so much for being here of talking to us. I'm sorry for everything. Should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network. Did you know all our glamping units have a resort quality Canadian made and eco-friendly bed?

Since day one, we have proudly partnered with Colonna-based mattress company Haven, ensuring you have the best sleep possible. So it's just one more reason to. visit us in the Boreal Forest. You can also try out a Haven Mattress, risk-free, for 100 nights at Haven Mattress.ca.