Should I Delete That? - Behind the ‘Circle of Shame’: I worked at Heat magazine in the 00s

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

This week, we’ve been examining the role that nurture played in building our relationships with our bodies - and specifically the role played by the tabloid media of the 90s and 00s. To really understand how that seismic impact the tabloids had on us - we had to speak to someone who knew how they work from the inside - that’s where Isabel comes in...Isabel is a writer who started her career in era-defining journalism, most notably at Heat magazine during its mid-noughties peak - where she contributed, alongside a huge team of people, to some of the most iconic features of that time… including The Circle of Shame. Em spoke to Isabel to find out what it was like working at a magazine that focused so heavily on women’s bodies, the effect it had on her - and how she feels about it now looking back on that time.Follow @Isabel.Mohan on InstagramSubscribe to Isabel’s substack here: https://keepitupfatty.substack.com/ - where she writes about the major journey she has been on with body image and how she has now made it her mission through writing to encourage more people, especially women, to be more active and confident. If you would like to get in touch - you can email us on [e-mail] us on Instagram:@shouldideletethat@em_clarkson@alexlight_ldnShould I Delete That is produced by Faye LawrenceMusic: Dex RoyStudio Manager: Dex RoyTrailers: Sophie RichardsonVideo Editor: Celia GomezSocial Media Manager: Emma-Kirsty Fraser Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Welcome back to Shoulda Delete That. In Monday's episode, we took you back to the tabloid media of the 90s and naughties to examine the effect that it had on our collective body image. You heard part of our conversation with Isabel Mohan in Monday's episode, but today we're bringing you our full in-depth chat with her. Isabel is a writer who started her career in era-defining journalism, most notably at Heat Magazine during his mid-naughties peak, where she contributed alongside a huge team of people

to some of the most iconic features of that time, including the Circle of Shame. I was off with Tommy that day because he wasn't very well, but M spoke to Isabel to find out what it was like working at a magazine that focused so heavily on women's bodies and the effect that had on her and, importantly, how she feels about it now. Let's go straight into it. Here's Isabel.

Can you talk a story? through your time working for Heat magazine. How long were you there for and what did you do? So I joined Heat. Well, I actually started on work experience in, it was October 2002. So how long ago is that? A long time ago. Straight out of uni, I was doing like a journalism course. Went there for two weeks work experience. Went really well. They invited me back. I don't think things happen as easily as this these days in magazines. Like you have to like be an unpaid intern forever. But if there was money then in magazines so yeah they offered me a job on my 22nd birthday which was 2003 initially as like a junior writer on the news desk although that news desk sounds sounds bit it wasn't real news it's like

just in timbrelake walking a dog or something um it was it all felt quite kind of simple then um and then i stayed there for six years kind of was a writer on the magazine and then worked on the website as well so yeah a long time most of the noughties What was it like to work there in a time when women's bodies were heavily scrutinised slash criticised? This is something I think about all the time now. When I joined Heat, I was by far the biggest person in the office. I was like a size 20 when I first worked there, 18 maybe.

Everyone else was tiny. As, you know, the image of a sort of women's magazine, it was as you'd expect. like lots of like very attractive, fashionable, like young, gorgeous girls. And I wasn't like that. Like I always felt like I was slightly on the outside looking in. And then, of course, you're then writing about celebrities. And I think when I think there was a shift while I was there. Like when I started it was more, um, wasn't the body stuff wasn't the stuff that

was selling as much. Like it was more, they weren't really tried that. It was more like reality TV and Hollywood celebrities in a more kind of, it was all just quite funny and fun, and then it sort of changed into realizing that what sold was looking at pictures of celebrities' bodies in a critical way, which obviously is really uncomfortable now. So, of course, no judgment, because it was the culture of the time, and it also sounds like it kind of snuck up on you a little bit.

I think so, yeah. But with that in mind, would you say that your work and what you were doing there contributed to what was ultimately being put out? I guess so. Like I find it hard to decide. I've been like thinking about this when I, you know, preparing for the podcast and everything. Am I a victim? Am I a perpetrator? Am I both? And the same with everyone, obviously as a writer on the magazine. Most of even readers. All of the, the whole culture at that time, I think we're all really mixed up about the role that we might have played in that. And yeah, it's a tough one really. Like I definitely look back at the some of the content from then and feel really uncomfortable. about it. Not even uncomfortable, like completely freaked out. It just seems bizarre some of the stuff that was just commonplace to write that. And it wasn't just magazines. It was the TV at the time, you know, posh spice getting weighed on TFI Friday, some of the sex in the city scenes that now like make us cringe, all of those things, which obviously all heat was writing about all that

stuff. It was all one big, very messed up body image world. And I suppose what's true about it is that all of us that were working there were also young women struggling with our own body image issues. Like I was obviously one of the youngest people there kind of joining straight out of uni but even the senior people were maybe 28, 29. Like I thought they were super grown up at the time but it's basically a load of kids having a great time trying to be funny. Being funny, like he was known for being funny like the tone of voice and all of that stuff was why it was sort of the kind of iconic magazine at the time that everyone wanted to work on, like, you know, anyone in journalism at that time, even people who were at the Guardian or whatever were applying for

jobs on heat. Like it was, it was a place to be, winning loads of awards, selling loads of magazines and all of that. It's really exciting. And lots of very clever, talented people. But yeah, I suppose it's that it just feel, yeah, it felt like it changed in quite a subtle way, going from people like looking at pictures of celebrities without makeup on, which felt like a, that felt surprising then because we're coming out of a very, quite an airbrushed Hollywood era, plus all the like kind of ladsmoggles and stuff that were,

everyone was wearing a lot of makeup and looking perfect. So that felt, I suppose, refreshing initially. But then you go from no makeup to, And I think this is the thing that's weird. It's the honing in on body parts that now just seems bizarre. And I also don't think it's how we really look at people's bodies. And I think that took me a long time to realize that. And I had to sort of like when I go to the beach,

I might notice if someone's like bigger or smaller, but I'm not going, oh, look at that cellulite. But it's only visible for a split second. but it's that split second that's been caught on camera and then put in a magazine. We don't really go around doing that, I don't think. But then I think it was about sort of feeling like we're kind of celebrating being a normal woman.

And I think that's where it kind of comes from a good place initially that readers are going to feel good if celebrities actually look a little bit more like them than they thought they did. But that just got magnified to a ridiculous degree, I think. That's a really interesting point. point and I do I can see how that started and I can see how convoluted the logic to look back but actually you're right yeah that's the reason that I loved Heat Magazine was because I was

craving seeing reality because like you say everything else was vogue and airbrushed yeah photoshopped but the section that I think you're referring to the thing that I remember was the circle of shame hoop of horror yeah that sort of the section that I think you're referring to the thing that I remember was the circle of shame A hoop of horror. Yeah. That saw the circling, stretch marks, cellulite, belly rolls. The other section that I remember was best and worst beach bodies.

Yeah. Did you ever work on either of those segments? Yeah, like I would have been like writing the captions sometimes for the, I wouldn't have been choosing the pictures. That would be the picture desk. I did, I wasn't the main writer writing the captions, but I was off. I was the person drafted in if someone else was off actually to write those,

some of those captions and I'm not looking for like a medal or bravery award here but I tried to I did used to try and say I don't not really comfortable with that or just try and make it funny and not mean I think that was the trouble the trouble is the easiest and quickest way to be funny is to be a bit mean like we you know we all do that all the time it's sarcasm and that and that's you know when it lands well it lands well but when it's about people's bodies. I mean, the whole thing does make me feel really uncomfortable and I don't like the fact that I used to write stuff like that.

And, you know, we also used to, I'd put fake names on things sometimes if I didn't want to have my name on something that might. It was often, that was often things that were maybe more like speculating that somebody might have had surgery or something. But yeah, obviously all of that's just the very fact that I wasn't comfortable putting my name on it probably tells you that it shouldn't have been written in the first place, really, doesn't it? But I think the thing that's really sad is that everyone that worked, Heaton in that

industry generally at the time, because obviously it wasn't the only magazine that was doing this, it was just the sort of, it was the best known title, I think. There were loads of really talented, funny writers and stuff and loads of really good stuff in these magazines as well that was, you know, really funny interviews, really great photoshoots, you know, loads of really positive stuff and calling out. Celebrity sometimes in a way that was sort of helpful. But the stuff that people remember and the stuff that kind of makes you gasp now is definitely the, like you say, the circle of shame being the big one. It's often the cellulite that gets mentioned, actually.

People always say to me, were you the person who put the circles around the cellulite? So it's crazy how many people have literally asked me that specific question. And yeah, and I think what came from that, initially that was just one or two pages in the magazine that were like that. they were incredibly popular so then it's like okay well how do we turn that into a cover story every week and yeah the thing that's interesting especially every week there's just a load of pictures of celebrities which and it's it's like okay what's the angle this week and there's really no story like it's just a load of people have gone on holiday or whatever they might be doing and then it's suddenly I guess these like when it's like one of those big covers of like best

and worst, bodies or something, they're kind, they were kind of done by committee. There's not any one person get going, right, this person looks great, this, yeah, it just sort of somehow comes together. And I think often what was on the cover was not necessarily complete, as with any magazine, is an overblown version of what's actually inside, but it's also what you remember. And yeah, it just, it weirds me out now. And I think that the intended impact of making women feel like their bodies are normal, that isn't, maybe that worked initially.

But ultimately you're going, well, people are looking at me and they're mentally putting rings around tiny perceived flaws on me, rather than how we really look at people. Well, people are more worried about themselves than anyone else, really, aren't they? And you take in the bigger picture of someone when you meet them. when you were honing in on other women's bodies because you had to, because the picture desk and sent them and you had to find the caption to go with it.

Did you ever find that that was something that you reflected that you turned on to yourself? Yeah, well, yes and no, I think, with that because I always, I think I always felt quite far removed because I looked not like those people at all. Like I didn't care about cellulite. I cared about the fact that I couldn't buy clothes from Topshop because I was a size 18 and they only went up to a 14 and that wasn't a real 14, you know.

So to me, all of these celebrities looked amazing and it, and not something I could ever aspire to be, but the people who I've, who I saw both in the office and amongst like people who were readers at the time, maybe friends, or people who worked in that general industry at the time, who were naturally quite slim, you know, maybe they, they were, they were, They looked sort of acceptable in terms of how society viewed them, which is not how I felt about myself. They were, I think they were more damaged by it because it was like, if only I could just be like a little bit thinner or if I could just go to the gym a bit more or whatever,

like they would, I feel like they were much harder on themselves, whereas I think I just, I think there's an element of just thinking the whole thing was a bit ridiculous. but then that was then maybe makes it easier to not really think about that as being a real person if you can't relate to them at all but yeah I mean I there were some there were things that made me feel uncomfortable that I remember saying I didn't think we should be doing but they were actually more around when I was worried about it from a sort of mental health perspective like I remember there were pictures of a celebrity who had appeared to have been self-harming It was all over the newspapers

And so that's the thing Heat was obviously always playing as a weekly magazine kind of playing catch up with having to have an angle on the stuff that was in the news already and I remember saying to the editor at the time

I really feel really uncomfortable writing about this it just doesn't seem okay I kind of was thinking of people in my life that I knew had struggled with stuff like that and I remember having a sort of debate about it but feeling really nervous

about saying that because I was so junior like I was getting paid 16 grand when I first joined that I mean you know it's 20 years ago but it wouldn't be that much more now in magazines but I didn't feel that I always had a place to to say what I absolutely thought and I actually went back as a freelancer in my early 30s having in that period of time lost a load of weight gained some back, like, you know, various ups and downs, but felt like a more of a confident woman and not a little girl that was suddenly in a celebrity magazine. And I did sort of, sort of try and say, think,

I remember the specific thing. They were trying to do a cover about celebrities who were a size 14. And I was a size 14 at this point. And it was, I just thought it was stupid because it was Kim Kardashian and Beyonce who are not a size 14, They are slim women who have tits and ass like that. But this was actually, I think, I think, kind of a man sort of making the decisions about this at this point.

And I was like, you do know these people aren't actually a size 14. And for that to be the, and this was when things had turned celebratory. So it was like putting curvier bodies on the cover, but in a celebratory way, which I sometimes find more disingenuous than the circling. Because it's still trying to do the same thing of getting people to stare at bodies. And but the point was, no, it's meant to make people feel good

because if they're a, you know, if they're a size 14, they'll be like, yeah, Kim Kardashian's a size 14 to us, but she's not. Like, it's not true. And I, you know, I remember sort of just realizing it wasn't really for me to be writing that stuff anymore. And actually, I think that, at that point, things would, it's changed quite a lot anyway.

And it's really, I don't think any of these magazines write about bodies in the same way anymore. But it's not that people don't want it. It's just that they're on the daily male website instead. It's still all the same stuff. It's just repackaged. And as it has been, as you know, with all of your research about body image, it's just repackaged in a different way for every generation. So if it's, you know, glamour models in the 80s or 50s advertising industry, whatever, ultimately, everyone's just staring at women's bodies all the time in a way that actually seems really weird when you think about it.

It's so true. Did you ever experience or feel within the paper that there was any pushback from the celebrities themselves? So I think that's what's really interesting about that era. I think is you have to kind of put the celebrities

in different categories. I think that there are the Hollywood celebrities who were often often the ones in these sort of beach body features and things, often in a positive way as well, who we would just never hear from. We weren't particularly on their radar. They got bigger fish to fry in LA with all the tabloids there and everything. So there's a bit of a free-for-all in terms of what you might write about those people

because Jennifer Aniston was never going to do a big interview with Heat Magazine, although I think nobody's ever been mean about Jennifer Aniston. body like or anything really the British celebrities and so and the big ones of the that time would have been a lot of the reality TV people who were coming through um and and talent show people and soap stars as well those people generally wanted to be in the magazine um it was in their interest to be in the magazine it's where their audience were they kind of I think I feel like they often just took the rough with this move with that but then obviously we now know that lots of those people feel really um damaged by that period of time not necessarily the magazines or just the

magazines but the whole the whole kind of simon cow talent show culture you know people being told there to be fat to be pop stars and things like that like it's and you know people on big brother it was obviously all very um voyeuristic in terms of looking at their bodies through the um one-way mirrors and stuff but yeah but i think the huge difference here is what didn't exist in this area really was social media like i mean my space existed but celebrities weren't on their posting stuff um so you you just wouldn't they didn't really have they weren't about to issue a statement if somebody had put a circle around their weird toe but now they might just immediately take to instagram or ticot or wherever and react to it um

but that just wasn't the conversation there wasn't it wasn't a two-way conversation it was magazines and newspapers writing about celebrities and then it goes in the bin until the next week like it wasn't obviously if it was something legally dodgy or whatever

which didn't happen that often then they would but not the body stuff not to my knowledge anyway and I think that but then also the same with the readers because obviously now you wouldn't obviously the only reason the only way we would know

if the readers like the magazine was because they'd bought it or not bought it based on the cover that week whereas now you'd be getting a response on social media it takes a lot more energy to write a letter into a magazine

if something's bothered you than just throwing a tweet out and I think actually I think that's one of the problems of that period of time is there weren't enough I hate this expression but like real women kind of in the office

or in the wider world of PR and the whole media that felt able to speak up about some of this stuff making them feel uncomfortable. There were women who were internalising it definitely and then people like me who, yeah,

kind of have my own sort of body image things over the years but it also felt like that weird detachment from it. But yeah, nobody was really... The magazines were selling well so therefore it keeps happening basically. Yeah, and there wasn't. the nobody felt that they could speak out because because without social media you might think you're the only one that thinks there's something wrong.

Exactly. I remember my friend actually wrote to the son once because they, in this period of time, they'd run a picture of Jennifer Love Hewitt who, in a bikini, I think. Obviously she, you know, she was very slim, but she also has breasts. How dare she? Like, obviously the look at the type that was since the size zero era and the headline was um jennifer loves chewets uh which is obviously just someone thinking it's hilarious in the office that hewitt rhymes with tuits and therefore turning a totally innocuous bikini photo into a comment on what she may or may not eat and it my friend wrote it obviously got no response but it angered her so much that she actually I think also she sort of felt like she had a similar body to that which is when when things piss you

off isn't it when you identify with that person um but most people don't do that like if we were getting letters or emails um in then they were you know they were usually because somebody had enjoyed something or they'd be like some really weird niche complaint it wasn't like what you're doing is terrible so all you're hearing as a as a writer um on a magazine you know in in that world is um the sales figures um like and therefore this cover sold well this one didn't sell so well so therefore we need to do more of this less of this um and if you know if the magazine's winning winning awards and getting lots of nice things said about it then that's that's what you're hearing and so you want to do more of it of course it's like if you can't beat

him join them and there wasn't anyone to beat them so it was like no it was it was completely revered i completely understand it because as a young person it was one of the i always wanted to be a journalist this was the content i grew up consuming it it's it's It's an insatiable beast and it's a fascinating thing. And it all makes so much sense. And I'm still to this day find myself and I call out the Daily Mail weekly for their shit and I still find myself wanting to defend the journalists

that have written it because you know full well that they're a very small cog in a very big machine. On that we're very aware that the editorial control of the 90s and naughties was massive. the agendas, the sales, the needs to just get papers out and get people reading them was massive. And obviously that did cumulate, that did culminate in the dehumanisation of the people that were being written about. As somebody who was a smaller fish within a very, I don't want to say male dominated because I don't believe. it was but it was a very um highly what's the word i'm trying to use because i don't know i

can't comment as to the heat's editorial well there wasn't no i mean the the people who most cared about the sales figures which are not people working editorial on the magazine it's the people running the publisher of the magazine yeah there were a lot of men in suits um middle-aged middle-aged men in suits who i think you know i i don't want to be like a hate men, they're all awful, but they don't really understand about the level of, just how complex our relationships with our bodies are, women's bodies. And they just, it is, they are quite basic about it often. Like, oh, big tits, small, too. Like, it's, so for them, they, they, they wouldn't have been thinking, this is really damaging. They would, the, the,

the sort of top line story of this makes normal women feel good. Like that, I guess that's the sort company line on things that nobody really probed into and I think that's probably the whole thing there's a lack of analysis going on because everyone's just trying to churn stuff out and um I think it was actually now magazine that invented the whole like beach body sort of thing and did really well with it and that was who heat was always competing with it although heat was sort of thought of as the like cool a funny one now magazine always sold more just a bit like it was it was always close it was that was the nemesis you know um So then everyone, you know, then there's obviously OK magazine and all these other ones that all started doing the same thing.

But the, yeah, like there were a lot of, I think the editorial split of heat, there were a lot of young women, there were quite a few gay men, there were a couple of straight men, like the editor at the time was a straight man, you know, with a wife and stuff. Yeah, probably as you would expect, a magazine aimed at women to be, like it was quite girly. And it was quite, as the whole like London-based media was at the time, it was quite sort of privileged, middle class, slim, slim girls who probably did quite well at school and were quite popular. And that is how the kind of magazine and PR and like influencer industry and everything is like that, isn't it? But that means you're not really necessarily in touch with what someone who lives 300,

miles away, how they're really feeling about it all, you know, yeah. And if I, you know, I felt like a slightly more normal woman there, but still a middle class white woman that's, you know, working in the media in London, just a bit fatter than a lot of the other people who were there. Yeah. But I mean, I suppose, yeah, it's that I imagined I, when I was a teenager, I was imagined I'd work at like the NME or something. I was like an indie girl. So being in that celebrity gossip world felt slightly alien to me as well. But it was also brilliant fun and I would still do it all again. I'd probably just put my hand up a bit more and say,

I don't think this is really cool. Well, was there a sense of discomfort among the other writers and the editors about the content you had to create? Because again, we look back at this time and you certainly, I know the mental image that I have of that time, it wasn't a very warm space, perhaps, for women to, like, make great friendships because there was that competitiveness, there was that edge. It was, I mean, that was what the paper was selling, really, was putting women against each other.

So within the paper and within the magazine and your colleagues, was there that discomfort? So the thing that I find it's probably surprising is that he is probably the least bitchy place I've ever worked in terms of relationships with. between colleagues. I've worked a way bitchier, more toxic, kind of random marketing companies, for instance, you know? And I think that was a lot to do. Like, they were quite good at hiring people. Like, they didn't like to hire big egos.

So they tried to hire people who were, like, funny and kind of down to earth, which was also the tone of voice of 80% of the magazine, the other 20% being the kind of slightly more toxic body stuff. But we were still trying to be funny with that. I think that's the, that's the like, icky bit is like,

we thought what we were doing was really funny. And a lot of it was really funny. Just not the, just don't really need to be funny about people's bodies. Like it, you can be funny about fashion. You can be funny about, and bitchy,

you know, like you can, people who wear insane outfits to the Oscars, they know what they're doing. They, they love, being flamboyant and they know they're out for one like it's i don't expect all my friends to like my clothes it's it's you want a reaction and the stuff that people say feels okay to um

sort of not criticize exactly but it feels more like fair game but it's the body stuff that um it's just this like weird area where it's like you just yeah you just don't really need to be talking about someone's muffin top have you heard that expression do you know where i have Yeah, do you know where I first heard of those? That's the funny thing. There's so many little quote like snippets, words like that that will have been coined by magazines. Yeah, all those magazines. The good thing is genes have got a lot higher generally since then, although now they're coming down again, aren't they?

So are we going to start hearing about muffin tops once more? I'm not sure. I don't doubt for it before a second. But yeah, but in terms of the, I think people were, there were lots of people who worked there who wanted to look good and be slim and wear cool clothes. But it didn't feel like a, like I say, I think any, I don't know whether this is probably, unfortunately, that I think any issues created by the kind of content magazine were probably being internalised by people as opposed to them bitching about

other people in the office. Like I, like I say, I, you know, I remember I used to eat quite differently from other people I worked with in that I openly ate like pasture at my desk or whatever when this was the size zero type like carbs were all bad and I didn't really give a shit for quite a while and I'm sure people were like oh my God can you believe she's well I don't know maybe they were probably just thinking in their heads can you believe she's eating that or maybe they think and I wish I could eat some pasta at my desk and not worry about carbs I don't know what they were thinking because it wasn't bitchy no it it was yeah people

were nice and supportive and like I say talented and clever and funny and all of these things it's just that what we were being directed to do with those clever funny talents was not very nice at the expense of famous people we found you because you wrote a post you wrote an article about that time and about kind of moving on from it and feeling remorseful I guess or not necessarily because, well, I don't know, I don't put words in your mouth, but reflective of that time. Definitely, yeah. And you say you'd do it all again,

but I wonder when, which I also understand because, you know, we grow through what we go through, but when you think back to the shift that you had, because it's been 20 years. Yeah, which is mad. Which is mad. Yeah. When was it?

Can you pinpoint a time where you started to think, God, I wish I had done that or I wish this had been different. Was there a point? Was it when everybody started pointing and looking back and going, God, that was awful? Or did you get there before?

I think it was gradual. So I left heat in 2009 when I was 28. But I went and worked at the Daily Mirror at doing quite similar stuff. But I was then in a more senior role. was kind of editor of the like celebrity bit of the website and it was I was making a lot of decisions and I again I don't want a like medal or some kind of piece award for this but I was like we're not going to be mean about people's bodies we're going to still writing loads of

really mean bitchy stuff hence me not demanding an award for this but it was more like taking the Mickey out of stuff people had said or um you know worn et cetera but not the body stuff and And I remember trying to then like managing a younger team and trying to explain the difference or what I perceived to be a difference in taking the piss out of somebody's, um, hat versus talking about that stomach, you know, um, but it was still, it was still mean. Like the, the tagline for that, the, that website was gossip gone toxic. So that tells you a lot. Um, but then I suddenly, I think it was when I was about 30. and suddenly I felt like the people I was writing about were all younger than me

and that felt a bit weird. Like this was the era of like, um, uh, sort of Lindsay Lohan and all the kind of LA party girls. It all started to feel quite grubby when you sort of realize that these people are actually like really messed up. They're having a bad,

you know, people are being, there's a period of time where we were just constantly seeing mugshots of celebrities. Like that's not normal, is it? That is weird. Um, and so that,

And it was Amy Winehouse and all of that stuff around that time as well. It just suddenly all felt less fun. Like, with fact, not fun at all. Like, it just ended up was when Brittany was struggling and all of those. So all of these people that we were like being fun and sort of taking the piss out of, I suppose, but also celebrating and loving these things. Like, who doesn't love Brittany? Like, they suddenly realized that they are really struggling and it doesn't feel that nice

to be scrutinizing their lives in the same way. And a lot of those people are either, yeah, the same age. as me or a bit younger and I guess I just grew out of it a little bit and then um kind of wrote got more into writing about like entertainment as opposed to celebrity but still taking the piss out of stuff like writing reviews of X Factor every week and and you know being positive about some of it and taking the piss out of some of it but then that's the whole that that that is also what X Factor does as well so writing about TV a lot and writing for women's magazines and all of these things but yeah what I and then I went and did totally different stuff for a while and was just

working for like tech companies writing very anonymously not putting my name to staff just writing like content and copy and I think that is it was only that point when I was kind of out of it um that I started looking back and also becoming a mother like it's such a cliche but kind of I've got a son and a daughter but think thinking about them and them growing up in their bodies and and all of that stuff, definitely makes you, oh, you just get a bit older and wiser, I suppose. But now I, then I sort of, I suppose, I don't think it's coincidence that what I like to right now

is to try and make women feel more confident. So is, and I've noticed actually a lot of people that used to work, not just at heat, but some at heat and in that industry do now do, they might be coaches or counsellors or I know some who do a lot of charity work. and my whole like body image thing has evolved in that time a lot as well and I you know one of the things I think is interesting in that era is exercise was regarded as torture like it was boot camps it was not eating carbs it was all of that stuff and I think that's been one of the big big changes as well to like just how we think about bodies generally um everything was

just negative everything just felt nasty like no exercise is for fun it's just to be really thin and sort of feel really unpleasant. And I think that that's what's changed. I think we all just want to feel good to a point anyway. But yeah, so yeah, I now like write a substack newsletter about body image stuff and about my own journey with, like, fitness. But it's called Keep It Up Fatty because that's what someone shouted at me when I was out running a few years ago.

And that was a man. So this is where the gender thing becomes interesting. Like we're obviously as women, we're, like I say, a lot of the writers on these magazines were women. But it's often the men kind of setting the tone from the top somewhere and making you feel the way you might do. 100%. And I think, honestly, I could talk to you forever.

But I think, you know, when I think back to this time, and again, I was only young, but in the research of this, and actually just because it always has been, these papers are on and funded by men but they are also existing within a patriarchal society that wants women smaller that wants women buying that wants women controlled that wants all these things so there is there is an agenda whatever there is always an agenda yeah and unfortunately it's very often the male one so i do think it's interesting how often and it's still happening now within journalism where a lot of young women are pawns really or they're they're internalizing it

because they have to and perpetuating it because it's their job to. Yeah, exactly. So it's a kind of, and I guess there's a question to finish or would you feel

at that time comfortable labeling yourself as a victim or a perpetrator or do you think you land somewhere in the middle of it? I think I probably land somewhere in the middle. It's definitely I'm not just a victim.

Well, if I am the net, I think everybody was. like I say it's very like young people producing all of this stuff without much like I say not much analysis and or probably a lot of it comes from how you feel about yourself how you've been brought up to feel about yourself like from all these different influences your the media from before that and your mum and whatever else like it's quite actually quite dangerous to put a national publication in the hands of loads of like young people who might feel quite messed up themselves um to make money, like you say, to make money for largely lots of men. So, but in terms of being a perpetrator, yes, I feel like I wrote some bitchy stuff. But I think one of the things, one of the myths about the media or certainly from where I've always sat is that there's some big agenda and that I think people imagine that like all the journalists. are getting together and deciding this is our angle on something we're going to take this person down, you know, that vibe. And I don't think any journalists are organized enough

or like everyone's just thinking like, how do we fill these pages? And it's the same. Now, even more so with online stuff where it's like Google won't even rank it if it's less than 400 words. So you're like, oh God, what can I say about something? Like you're desperately trying to think angles all the time like it's it's nuts like you know quite often you're just dealing with a picture it's like okay I need to form it I've got half an hour to form an opinion of this picture or I'm going to get told I haven't done my job and I'm too slow or I'm not funny enough or whatever it wasn't really like nobody was like cracking the whip in that way but there's also a magazine that needs to be printed it was a very vast turnaround all the time so yeah and like

I say, I think one of the big problems is that you've told you need to be funny and to be funny. The quickest way to be funny is to be mean and take the piss out of stuff quite often. And there are clever and less clever ways to do that. I think that he was part of a much bigger fucked up naughty's world. But it's one of the things that people remember. because it was so bright and in your face and the TV adverts and all of that stuff that people loved.

Like it was, you know, a big iconic title of what was a quite messed up era that, yeah, we obviously look back on in a slightly eke way. I mean, some of the captions, things like like, like, eke and oh my God, is now how we feel when we look back at that stuff. This has been so interesting.

Thank you so, so much for coming to speak to. asked me thank you so much thank you for having me I love talking about all this stuff oh good thank you should I delete that is part of the ACAS creator network